C.P. Affirmation: Eudes la Zouche was not the son of Alan la Zouche and Ellen de Quincy
Douglas Richardson
Complete Peerage, 12 (2) (1959): 937–938 (sub Zouche) has a good
account of the life of Sir Eudes la Zouche, of Harringworth,
Nothamptonshire (died 1279) and his ever popular wife, Milicent de
Cantelowe, commonly known as Milicent de Mohaut. Complete Peerage
identifies Sir Eudes' parentage as follows:
"younger brother of Alan la Zouche (d. 1270), of Ashby, co. Leicester,
etc., both being sons of Roger la Zouche, of the same, by his wife
Margaret ..." END OF QUOTE.
In making this statement, Complete Peerage curiously upended all
previous historical works including Dugdale, which works placed Eudes
la Zouche one generation later in the the Zouche family tree, that is,
as a younger son of Sir Alan la Zouche and his wife, Ellen de Quincy.
Here is just a few sources which adopted the position that Eudes la
Zouche was the son of Sir Alan la Zouche:
1. Kennett, Parochial Antiq. Attempted in the Hist. of Ambrosden,
Burcester & other adjacent Parts 2 (1818): 465–466 (identifies Eudes
la Zouche as son of Alan la Zouche, by his wife, Hellen de Quincy).
2. Baker Hist. & Antiq. of Northampton 1 (1822–30): 563 (Beaumont-
Quincy-Zouch ped.) (Eudes la Zouch of Harringworth identified as son
of Alan la Zouch and Ellen de Quincy).
3. Desc. & Hist. Guide to Ashby-de-la-Zouch & the Neighbourhood
(1831): 7–12 (author identifies Eudo [Eudes] la Zouche, ancestor of
the Zouches of Harringworth, as a younger son of Alan la Zouche, lord
of Ashby-de-la-Zouch, and his wife, daughter of Roger de Quincy, Earl
of Winchester).
4. Burke, Hist. of the Commoners 4 (1838): 227 (sub Whatton) (author
identifies Eudes la Zouche, husband of Milicent de Cantelowe, as “the
second son of Sir Alan de la Zouch, baron of Ashby de la Zouch,
constable of the Tower, and Helen his wife, daughter and co-heiress of
Roger de Quincie, Earl of Winchester).
5. Banks, Baronies in Fee 1 (1844): 469 (sub Zouche of Ashby), 469–471
(sub Zouche of Haryngworth) (identifies Eudes la Zouche as son of Alan
la Zouche and Ellen de Quincy).
6. Foss, Biographical Dictionary of the Judges of England (1870): 791
(biog. of William la Zouche) (identifies Eudes la Zouche as son of
Alan la Zouche).
7. D.N.B. 63 (1900): 414–415 (biog. of Alan la Zouche) (identifies
Eudes la Zouche [died 1279] as younger son of Alan la Zouche and Ellen
de Quincy).
8. Procs. of the Suffolk Institute of Arch. 29(1) (1962): 34–66
(Naunton ped. dated 18th Cent.) (Eudes la Zouche, husband of Milicent
de Cantelowe, identified as son of Alan la Zouche and his wife, Ellen
de Quincy).
Besides the above sources, I've elsewhere found that the Quincy arms
were included among the quarterings of Sir Eudes la Zouche's later day
descendants by at least three different sources. The Quincy arms were
presumably included in the belief that Sir Eudes la Zouche's mother
was Ellen de Quincy, who was an heiress.
1. Topographer 1 (1789): 197–204 (list of heraldic quarterings for
Zouche family of Harringworth taken from Glover’s Barona e, No. 1160,
Harleian MSS in the British Library includes the arms of Quincy,
Leicester, Grandmesnil, Galloway, Chester, etc., which set of arms
respresents the ancestry of Eudes la Zouche’s mother, Ellen de
Quincy).
2. Clive, Documents connected with the Hist. of Ludlow & the Lords
Marchers (1841): 305 (list of heraldic quarterings of Edward, Lord
Zouche of Harringworth dated temp. Queen Elizabeth includes the arms
of Quincy and Leicester).
3. Miscellanea Gen. et Heraldica 1 (1868): 158–159 (Saunders ped.
dated ?1618 which includes the quarterings of Saunders family arms,
including Zouche of Harringworth, Quincy, Cantelowe, Brewes, etc.).
Reviewing the above, it appears that before 1900, it was commonly
believed that Sir Eudes la Zouche was the son of Sir Alan la Zouche
(died 1270).
The question thus arises: Was Complete Peerage correct in 1959 to
place Sir Eudes la Zouche as the son of Sir Roger la Zouche (died
1238), or were all the other earlier sources correct in placing Sir
Eudes one generation later in the Zouche family tree as the son of Sir
Alan la Zouche (died 1270).
The answer to that question is not as easy to find as one might
assume. After sifting through a lot of sources, I've finally
determined that Complete Peerage's version is correct and all the
earlier sources are in error.
Here is the evidence:
Cal. Patent Rolls, 1258-1266 (1910): 238 specifically states that
Eudes la Zouche was the brother, not son, of Alan la Zouche:
Date: 1262. 25 Dec.
"... the king is sending Alan la Zouche, justice of the forest on this
side of Trent, to the said march for the preservation of the peace and
the defence of those parts, he commands the justice to deliver the
castles of Edward, the king's son, to wit, Chester, Beeston and
Shotwik to Eudo la Zouche, brother of the said Alan, without
delay ..." END OF QUOTE.
The above item may be viewed at the following weblink:
http://sdrc.lib.uiowa.edu/patentrolls/h3v5/body/Henry3vol5page0238.pdf
Complete Peerage shows that Eudes la Zouche was continuously active
from 1251 to 1279. This chronology would not permit him to be a
younger son of Sir Alan la Zouche (died 1270).
As for Eudes la Zouche's wife, Milicent de Cantelowe, Complete Peerage
tells us very little about her first marriage to John de Mohaut,
except to say that she married (1st) John de Mohaut before 1254 [see
Cal. IPM 1 (1904): 92].
Elsewhere in a note in G. Herbert Fowler "Tractatus de Dunstaple and
de Hocton" in Publications of the Bedfordshire Historical Record
Society, vol. 19 (1937): 92, John de Mohaut [husband of Milicent de
Cantelowe] is identified as the son [probably eldest] of Roger de
Mohaut, by his wife, Cecily, daughter of William d'Aubeney, 3rd Earl
of Arundel. John de Mohaut was living in 1257 [see Cal. Close Rolls,
1256-1259, pg. 157], and is recorded to have died in 1258 [see Ann.
Cestr., 77, 78].
I assume therefore Milicent de Cantelowe married (2nd) Eudes la Zouche
about 1260. They were definitely married by 1273.
Mr. Fowler further notes that at Milicent de Cantelowe's death in
1299, she held the manor of Foleshill, Warwickshire of her former
brother-in-law, Robert de Mohaut. The above author assumes this
property was probably Milicent's dower of the Mohaut marriage.
However, Foleshill was held by the Bois family as subtenants under the
Mohaut family [see VCH Warwick 8 (1969): 57-70]. Before Milicent
died, various Bois manors were transferred to her on the marriage of
her son, William la Zouche, to Maud Lovel, then heiress apparent of
the Bois family. As such, the possibility exists that Milicent was
holding Foleshill in trust at the time of her death for her son and
daughter-in-law and that she had no dower rights at all to this
property.
In summary, it is clear that both Eudes la Zouche and his wife,
Milicent de Cantelowe, were of the age to be contemporaries to Sir
Alan la Zouche (died 1270). As such, it is absoutely impossible that
Sir Eudes la Zouche was a younger son of Sir Alan la Zouche.
Moreover, there is no evidence that there were two Eudes la Zouche's
in successive generations in the Zouche family. Rather, there appears
to have been one Eudes la Zouche at this time. He occurs continuously
in contemporary records from 1251 to 1279. His wife, Milicent de
Cantelowe, similarly occurs continuously in the records from 1254 to
1299.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Patricia A. Junkin
Thank you for re-visiting this. In researching William la Zouche of
Blaketoriton, I believe we must push back the birth dates for the
children of Alan and Elena de Quincy to 1230-40, rather than 1240-50.
Nevertheless, I think we must proceed on the basis that there was a
Eudes, brother to Alan and a Eudes, son of Alan. I say this on the
basis of too many unplaced la Zouches. If it is determined that Eudes
was a brother of Alan, then I find it very unlikley he has no children
until his marriage to Milicent.
Pat
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Douglas Richardson
wrote:
< Dear Douglas,
< Thank you for re-visiting this. In researching William la
Zouche of
< Blaketoriton, I believe we must push back the birth dates for the
< children of Alan and Elena de Quincy to 1230-40, rather than
1240-50.
< Nevertheless, I think we must proceed on the basis that there was a
< Eudes, brother to Alan and a Eudes, son of Alan. I say this on the
< basis of too many unplaced la Zouches. If it is determined that
Eudes
< was a brother of Alan, then I find it very unlikley he has no
children
< until his marriage to Milicent.
< Pat
Dear Pat ~
The births of the children of Sir Alan la Zouche and Ellen de Quincy
likely date roughly in the period 1240-1260, not 1230-1240.
The 1230-1240 time frame is much too early. Ellen de Quincy's older
sister, Elizabeth (or Isabel) de Quincy, married (1st) by contract
dated Feb. 1240/1 Hugh de Neville [see Complete Peerage, 9 (1936): 482–
483 (sub Neville)]. Elizabeth subsequently was divorced and married
(2nd) Alexander Comyn, by whom she had nine children.
There is no reason to think Ellen was having children 11 years before
her older sister was contracted to marry her first husband, Hugh de
Neville.
Patricia A.Junkin
I see that if you consider a Eudes la Zouche as the son of Roger and
Margaret Biset, then being active in 1251 would be understandable.
However, William of Blaketoriton who was the son of Alan and Elena de
Quincy was a knight of Devon in 1252. If we assume Alan was born in
1195 or thereabout, then, would it reasonable to believe his first
children were not born until he was 45? I think much work needs to be
done on dating the generations.
In your post: From: "Douglas Richardson" <royala...@msn.com>
Subject: Sir Eudes la Zouche of Harringworth: Was he a son of Ellen de
Quincy?
Date: 10 Jan 2007 00:03:11 -0800...evidence consisted of a lawsuit
which showed that Sir Eudes la Zouche's widow, Milicent, claimed dower
in property which clearly had been inherited by Sir Alan la Zouche's
wife, Ellen de Quincy. Presumably this property passed by gift of
Ellen de Quincy to Sir Eudes la Zouche. Such a gift would be easily
explained if Sir Eudes was the son of Ellen de Quincy.
My post followed with discussion. I have found it problematic that I
find de Quincy inheritance for Oliver, William and Alan but none for
Eudo.
Best,
Pat
Douglas Richardson
wrote:
> Dear Douglas,
> I see that if you consider a Eudes la Zouche as the son of Roger and
> Margaret Biset, then being active in 1251 would be understandable.
> However, William of Blaketoriton who was the son of Alan and Elena de
> Quincy was a knight of Devon in 1252.
Dear Patricia ~
Sir Roger la Zouche (died 1285), eldest son and heir of Sir Alan la
Zouche and Ellen de Quincy, was born about 1240-2, he being aged 28 or
30 in 1270. If so, it would be impossible for his younger brother
William la Zouche to be a knight of Devon in 1252 as you claim.
The William la Zouche who was knight in 1252 was the Sir William la
Zouche in the previous generation who died in 1272. He was of King's
Nympton, Devon. He married (1st) Maud de Howbridge (widow of John de
Trailly) and (2nd) Joan _____.
Patricia A.Junkin
Risdon states William la Zouche of Blaketoriton was a knight in 1252.
On another page he states 56 Henry III. William of Essex was not of
Blacktoriton and I have traced William, son of Alan through this
property until his death.
I found your reference below on Britishreferring History Online
referring to Roger being 28-30 at the time of his father's death. I
would like to see the whole of the inquisition. And, will again aver
that Zouche dating should have a thorough study.
Pat