Sibyl de Valoignes
John Watson
Does anyone know of any evidence pointing to the parentage of Sibyl de
Valoignes, who married firstly Robert de Ros of Helmsley (d. ca.
1162), secondly, about 1166 William de Percy (d. ca. 1174) and thirdly
in 1182, Ralph d'Aubigny (d. 1191).
Regards,
John
Ronald Di Iorio
"After the death of her third husband she became a nun at Appleton Priory and died there. She is often confused with Sibyl de Valognes who married Robert de Stuteville. That Sibyl was the daughter of Philip. de Valoines of Panmure (d. 1215), chamberlain to the king of Scots.
The thrice married Sibyl could be the sister of Philip."
Ron
--- On Sat, 1/1/11, John Watson <watso...@gmail.com> wrote:
> -------------------------------
> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to GEN-MEDIEV...@rootsweb.com
> with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the
> subject and the body of the message
>
Alex Maxwell Findlater
and so aunt of thr younger Sybil. Perhaps someone can say whether
that is correct. Unfortunately Round does not mention her in his
paper on the family in the Ancestor Vol IX.
WJho...@aol.com
Alex Maxwell Findlater
> What is the proof that Sibyl married William de Percy ?
Look at CP, sub Percy.
CE Wood
"Sources for this Information:
date: 1164/66 [Ref: ES III.4 #710]
abt 1166 [Ref: CP XI p91, Keats-Rohan DD p397]
second marriage of Sibyl [Ref: Keats-Rohan DD p671, Keats-Rohan DD
p760]
second marriage of both [Ref: Keats-Rohan DD p631, Sanders Baronies
p148(2)]"
CE Wood
Peter Stewart
<WJho...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:mailman.18.129390941...@rootsweb.com...
> What is the proof that Sibyl married William de Percy ?
See William's charter donating Topcliffe church, printed in *The Fabric
Rolls Rolls of York Minster*, edited by James Raine (1859), pp 142-3
appendix no. 3: "Willelmus de Percy omnibus hanc cartam visuris vel
audituris salutem. Sciatis me donasse, concessisse, et presenti scripto
confirmasse ecclesiæ Sancti Petri Eboracensis ecclesiam de Topecliva.Hanc
autem donacionem et concessionem feci pro salute animæ meæ et uxoris meæ
Sibillæ, patris mei et matris meæ, filiorum quoque et filiarum mearum.Hiis
testibus R. Archiepiscopo Eboracensi, Sibilla de Valloniis".
The proof that William's wife was the widow of Robert de Ros is cited from
the pipe roll for 1165/66 in CP vol. 10 p. 441 note (l) and vol. 11 p. 91
note (f).
Peter Stewart
John Watson
> I have no evidence as to her parentage and would like to see some myself. Here is the note I have in my database:
>
> "After the death of her third husband she became a nun at Appleton Priory and died there. She is often confused with Sibyl de Valognes who married Robert de Stuteville. That Sibyl was the daughter of Philip. de Valoines of Panmure (d. 1215), chamberlain to the king of Scots.
>
> The thrice married Sibyl could be the sister of Philip."
>
> Ron
>
>
> > From: John Watson <watsonjo...@gmail.com>
> > Subject: Sibyl de Valoignes
> > To: gen-medie...@rootsweb.com
> > Date: Saturday, January 1, 2011, 10:16 AM
> > Hi all,
>
> > Does anyone know of any evidence pointing to the parentage
> > of Sibyl de
> > Valoignes, who married firstly Robert de Ros of Helmsley
> > (d. ca.
> > 1162), secondly, about 1166 William de Percy (d. ca. 1174)
> > and thirdly
> > in 1182, Ralph d'Aubigny (d. 1191).
>
> > Regards,
>
> > John
>
> > -------------------------------
> > with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the
> > subject and the body of the message
>
>
Hi,
I have Sybil as the daughter of Roger de Valoignes and Agnes, and
sister of Philip de Valoignes (and sister also of Peter, Robert,
Geoffrey, John and Roger) which seems to fit most of the known facts.
Agnes gave land to Binham for the souls of her sons and daughters, so
we know she had daughters. But I have searched in vain for a charter
of any of these Valoignes which is witnessed by any of Sybil's three
husbands or her children (or vice versa) which would tend to confirm
the relationship.
Regards,
John
John P. Ravilious
>
> - Show quoted text -
-------------------------
Dear John,
This placement of Sibyl de Valoines is sound if unproven. We
certainly know Philip de Valoines (d. 1215) had a daughter Sibyl,
called 'Sibille filie mee' in his charter granting Torpenhow to her
and her husband Robert de Stuteville [Reg. de Panmure II:124]. Bssed
on the witnesses, this charter can be dated ca 1195 x 7 Aug 1205.
Eustace de Stuteville (dsp bef 18 Oct 1241) was Sibyl's son and heir.
There was another Valoines sibling: Cecily, wife of Henry de
Essex, sheriff of Essex (d. 1163 or later), by whom she was the
ancestress of the de Vere Earls of Oxford &c. Cecily's daughter
Gunnora de Essex was evidently called 'neptis mee' or similar in a
charter of Agnes de Valoines, interpreted as niece until Rosie Bevan
corrected this in 2003 [R. Bevan, <Re: Essex/Valognes/Fitz John>,
SGM, 18 Apr 2003].
Cheers,
John
John Watson
Hi John,
Thanks for that. Whilst we are on this subject, perhaps you could
answer another query concerning this family. Peter de Valoigns, eldest
son of Roger de Valognes and Agatha fitz John married a Gundred de
Warenne. Peter died before 1160 when his brother Robert paid 200 marcs
for his relief (PRS, ii, p. 11). Did his widow marry secondly William
de Courcy III? The chronology seems ok, because William de Courcy IV,
son and heir of William III was 20 years old in 1185 (Rot. Dominabus,
p. 73) so born about 1165.
Regards,
John
John P. Ravilious
------------------
Dear John,
You have it as I do at present. Gundreda, daughter of Reginald
de Warenne of Wormegay, Norfolk (d. aft 1178) and his wife Alice de
Wormegay m. (1) Peter (or Piers) de Valoins of Bennington, co. Herts.
(dsp 1158 acc. to Sanders), and (2) William de Curci (or Courcy).
Gundreda had one child who had issue: Alice de Curci (dvm before
6 Dec 1224), who m. (1) Henry de Cornhill, and (2) Warin fitz Gerold.
Gundreda's heirs were her granddaughters, Joan de Cornhill (wife of
Hugh de Neville of Little Hallingbury, Essex) and (2) Margaret 'filia
Warini', wife of (1) Baldwin de Reviers (dvp 1216) and (2) Fulk de
Breaute.
I attach for your reference the translation from the Fine Rolls
of the order of 6 Dec 1224 as to the partition of Gundreda's dower
lands between her granddaughters [1].
By the bye, the Warenne-Valoines marriage has an interesting
Anglo-Scots tint to it. There was a later Reginald de Warenne holding
lands in Fife, whose ancestry is yet to be resolved. Perhaps holding
the interest of a wider audience, Gundreda allegedly had a sister Ela
(or similar) held by many to have been the 'nepta' of King Malcolm IV
married to Duncan, Earl of Fife (d. aft 17 Jun 1203).
Cheers,
John
Notes
[1] CFR 9 Hen III, C 60/22, mem. 5 :
' 27 6 Dec. Westminster. Oxfordshire. Order to the sheriff of
Oxfordshire to take into the king’s hand the vill of Newnham that
Gundrea de Warenne held in dower, which is an inheritance partible
between Joan, wife of Hugh de Neville, and Margaret, wife of Falkes de
Bréauté, and he is to keep it safely until it will have been shared
between them by order of the king, saving to the executors of the
testament of the same Gundrea the chattels that she had there in order
to execute her reasonable testament. Witness R. bishop of Salisbury.
28 Suffolk. It is written in the same manner to the sheriff of
Suffolk, concerning the vill of Fageham which she held in maritagium,
and which is an inheritance partible between the aforesaid.
29 Middlesex. It is written in the same manner to the sheriff of
Middlesex, concerning the land which she had in Halliwick, which is an
inheritance partible between the aforesaid. '
John Watson
Hi John,
For completeness:
Gundred had a third husband, Geoffrey Hose, who was dead before July
1199, when Gundred gave 200 marcs to have the wardship of Geoffrey her
son and heir with his land until he reached full age (Rot de Oblatis,
p. 8). Presumably Geoffrey the son died without heirs before December
1224.
Alice de Courcy died about 1220, when there is a case in the Curia
Regis: Hugh de Neville and Joan his wife claimed half of the manors of
Stoke Curcy and Wutton and part of Radeweye in Somerset against Fawkes
de Bréauté and Margaret his wife. The pleadings show that Joan and
Margaret were the daughters of Alice de Courcy, who had recently died
and that Alice had been married to Warin fitz Gerold (Curia Regis
Rolls, Vol. 9, pp. 347-8).
Regards,
John
John Watson
>, Gundreda allegedly had a sister Ela
> (or similar) held by many to have been the 'nepta' of King Malcolm IV
> married to Duncan, Earl of Fife (d. aft 17 Jun 1203).
>
Now you have me completely puzzled. If Ela was the 'nepta' or niece of
King Malcolm IV, then she was not the daughter of Reginald de Warenne
and Alice de Wormegay. As Malcolm was the son of Henry of Scotland and
Ada de Warenne, it seems more likely to me that one of their offspring
used the Warenne family name.
Regards,
John
Peter Stewart
"John Watson" <watso...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:ede6c611-398d-4b9c...@c13g2000prc.googlegroups.com...
The suggestion is that 'neptis' in Malcolm IV's charter meant a younger
cousin rather than a niece - see 'The Earls of Fife in the 12th Century' by
Geoffrey Barrow at
http://ads.ahds.ac.uk/catalogue/adsdata/PSAS_2002/pdf/vol_087/87_051_062.pdf,
pp. 53-54.
Peter Stewart
John Watson
> "John Watson" <watsonjo...@gmail.com> wrote in message
> pp. 53-54.
>
> Peter Stewart
Hi Peter,
Thanks for that - very interesting. I looked at some of Barrow's
references in the Cartulary of St. Andrew's Priory and there certainly
seems to be a relationship between Ada de Warenne and Ela or Hela,
countess of Fife. In one case they are both witnesses to a charter and
in another Hela witnesses one of Ada's charters. The only problem
seems to be that the actual charter where Malcolm IV calls Ela (or
Ada) his "neptis" is of dubious provenance.
Regards,
John
Alex Maxwell Findlater
is no reason to dismiss the charter, even though it has come to us
through an antiquary who is not trusted very confidently. Barrow
argues that many of the things in the charter, especially the ville
for iuste and the witnesses suggest that it is reliable. Remember
that the copy printed by Sibbald is not what Barrow was looking at,
and published in 1953.
Whether she is Malcolm's nepta in the strict sense seems doubtful, but
her name is pretty potent - virtually unknown then in England or
Scotland and suggesting a connection to Ela of Burgundy, her daughter
Ela of Ponthieu and her great-grand-daughter Ela of Salisbury, who
married William Longspee. So even without the charter BM Harl 4693,
fo 46, of 1160x62 , we see connections with Ada de Warenne.