Kosher Wine - Still Even More Bigotry Toward ALL Gentiles! Get The Meaning of it People! Theis Bigotry is Against You!
Sir William Philmore McTavish
Link was active 2/5/98
http://www.kosher-wine.com/wines/history.html
World's First Wine Laws
Kosher wine laws are the oldest winemaking laws in the world. Spain
and Portugal wrangle over which has the oldest appellation control
laws in the world without realizing that Jewish religious law
regulating every aspect of kosher winemaking predates any other wine
law by centuries.
Wine occupies a special place in the laws of kashrut, compared to
food. The grape is placed above all other fruits because of the
precious wine that is pressed from its skin and, perhaps, because the
intervention of man is not even needed to produce wine.
[ ... ]
Judaism recognizes this divine process, treating the grape with
special reverence. It is the only fruit from which we derive
sacramental wine. And whenever there is wine on the table, we offer a
prayer.
Our sages knew well the wonders of wine. No organism harmful to humans
can live in it and it has been used medicinally virtually as long as
it has been made. Bless it in praise of God, wash your food down with
it, cook with it, drink it on its own-- there is no beverage more
pleasant or versatile.
[ ... ]
Some Kashrut Specifics
The codification of koshering wine began in the days of Maimonides.
Having accorded wine a status above all other manmade liquids--neither
beer nor hard liquor carry its religious significance, as they are not
made from grapes--the codifiers of kashrut girded it with strict
production requirements to guard its purity.
For example, no animal products may be allowed to taint the wine.
Non-kosher winemakers often use egg whites or gelatin to clarify the
wine. But kosher winemakers use bentonite, a clay material, to attract
suspended particles and drag them down to the bottom of the barrel.
And they never use animal bladders for filters.
Physical cleanliness, in addition to religious purity, is mandated.
Barrels, for instance, must be cleaned three times. Though modern
steam-cleaning and chemical preparations might seem to make this rule,
like many others, obsolete, kosher winemakers follow it, as all
others, fervently.
There are two levels of kosher wine, that made through the normal
processes of winemaking and that made with one additional process.
That second order is wine made "m'vushal" or "mevushal."
For wine to retain its kosherness when opened and poured by a non-Jew,
such as waiters, kashrut law demands that it be made "mevushal." A
mevushal wine retains its religious purity no matter who opens or
pours it or drinks it. Modern technology allows the rules of fine wine
production to merge satisfactorily with religious laws.
Making wine mevushal is a process which brings the liquid to the
boiling point, defined as heating it until air bubbles are brought to
the surface and some wine is lost through evaporation. The point at
which most modern kosher winemakers apply the heat to what is called
the "must," the slurry of grape solids and juice, is just before or at
the very beginning of fermentation. Let's keep in mind that the Hebrew
word for wine and for grape juice is the same; juice as well as wine
can be used for all sacramental purposes.
The modern technique of making wine mevushal is to run the barely
fermenting liquid so quickly over steel plates which have been heated
to about 185 degrees Fahrenheit that a bubble or two appears,
satisfying the kashrut laws. The must then is cooled just as quickly
and the rest of the fermentation and winemaking process goes on.
Wine served at large functions invariably is mevushal, as it retains
its kashrut quality even when the bottle is opened by gentile waiters
and passed around the table at a mixed gathering.
[ ... ]
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Jews are only about 16 million people on Earth but look what they
boldly say concerning the rest odf all of mankind!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Consider what B'nai B'rith had in their magazine:
http://bnaibrith.org/ijm/articles/wine/index.html
Vineyard Vanguard:
The new taste of a well-aged tradition
By Joseph Berkofsky
[ ... ] (Excerpt used for "educational" purposes]
Like all other kosher food or drink, kosher wine cannot contain any
unkosher animal or fish products; to be kosher for Passover, it must
also not come in contact with any leavened grains.
But the law regarding wine extracts another, more pressing, demand: It
cannot be handled by non-Jews.
The roots of this law reach back to the ancient Land of Israel where,
to prevent Jews from drinking wines used in idol worship, Jewish law
forbade Jews to touch wine that had been moved in an open vessel by
non-Jews, since it was likely used as a wave offering. The rabbis
later went further in battling assimilation, declaring any wine
handled by a non-Jew unfit to drink.
Today, in order to ensure that a wine meets all the kashrut
requirements, the entire winemaking process from grape-crushing to
bottling is overseen by trained, Sabbath-observant Jews, or
mashgichim, who handle all flow of the wine. And, as Ben Welton, a
mashgiach for St. Supéry and others, can attest, this kind of kosher
supervision can mean as much toil as Torah.
With help from nearby non-Jewish winery workers, mashgichim operate
cranes to unload the grapes from trucks after the fall harvest. They
run the crushers which break the grapes, and pipe the crushed grapes
and juice into steel tanks. And they oversee the rest of the process
from fermentation, when yeast converts the grape's sugar into alcohol,
to filtering the wine and moving it into oak barrels to be aged.
At times, says Welton, this is dizzying work - literally. Not too long
ago, he recalls, he had to dig heavy heaps of stems from a huge
fermentation tank at St. Supéry - while wearing a lifeline to show
that he was not inhaling too much alcohol vapor.
Peak season for mashgichim like Welton is between August and January,
when most of the winemaking occurs. And, although a mashgiach need not
be on premises other than when the wine is being moved through the
process, mashgichim will occassionally return to inspect the wine as
it ages to ensure that it has not been touched by non-Jews.
But those wineries that wish to involve non-Jews in the process can
tap into a Talmudic ruling that makes this possible.
Rabbinic authorities decreed that wine, even if touched by non-Jews,
was fit for Jewish use so long as it was mevushal, or cooked. The idea
was, in part, that cooked wine is far less palatable and no one would
want to use it.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Some more of what Jews say concerning Gentiles:
http://www.mcs.net/~kollel/www/halacha/fax210.html
HALACHA ON - LINE
In Memory of Rabbi Dov Ber Rosenblum z''l
a dedicated Torah scholar whose greatest love was the study and
clarification of Halacha
Food Preparations, Part One vol.2 no.10
In an effort to limit social mingling with our gentile neighbors and
the intermarriage which might result, our sages prohibited eating food
cooked by gentiles, even if all ingredients are kosher and the food is
cooked in a kosher vessel while under the watchful eye of a Jewish
supervisor.
Such food is referred to in Hebrew as bishul nochri or bishul akum. It
is particularly important to bear this isuue in mind if one has a
non-Jewish housekeeper or attendent [slave from the nations!] who
takes part in household food preparation.
When establishing this prohibition, the sages excluded foods which
would have been fully edible prior to the cooking process. Therefore,
pasteurization of milk and juice, though typically done by non-Jews,
presents no bishul nochri problem. Some authorities use this exclusion
as the justification for the common practice to drink coffee or tea
cooked by a gentile. These drinks can be viewed as basically being
flavored water. As water is drinkable prior to any cooking, water and
by extension coffee and tea, are exempted from this prohibition. Other
examples within this category would be most fruit and those vegetables
which could be eaten raw.
Another category excluded from this prohibition is that of foods that
are not dignified enough to be served on shulchan melachim - literally
the table of kings or practically, as a dish at a fancy dinner.
Accordingly, if for example, a bowl of oatmeal was cooked by a
non-Jewish housekeeper, the bishul nochri prohibition does not apply.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
A Community Service of Kollel Toras Chesed of Skokie
------------------------------------------------------------------------
kol...@mcs.com Kollel Toras Chesed Voice (708) 674-7959 3732 W.
Dempster Fax (708) 674-4023 Skokie, IL 60076 BBS (708) 674-4023 Last
Revision: August 22, 1995
Followup to above article:
http://www.mcs.net/~kollel/www/halacha/fax211.html
HALACHA ON - LINE
In Memory of Rabbi Dov Ber Rosenblum z''l
a dedicated Torah scholar whose greatest love was the study and
clarification of Halacha
Food Production part two vol.2 no.11
In our last issue we introduced the laws of bishul nochri .
[Review: Food Preparations, Part One vol.2 no.10 In an effort to
limit social mingling with our gentile neighbors and the intermarriage
which might result, our sages prohibited eating food cooked by
gentiles, even if all ingredients are kosher and the food is cooked in
a kosher vessel while under the watchful eye of a Jewish supervisor.
Such food is referred to in Hebrew as bishul nochri or bishul akum.]
We received certain questions regarding the common practice of kosher
caterers and commercial food producers. The following additional
guidelines provide significant insight into the halachic basis for
food preperation involving significant amounts of cooking by nochrim .
The prohibition of bishul nochri applies only if the entire cooking
process is done by the nochri . If a Jew places the food on the fire
or, according to the Ashkenazic view, if he ignites or increases the
fire, no bishul nochri problem can develop. Even if the cooking
process was initiated by a nochri , as long as it was substantially
completed by a Jew (e.g. the pot was removed from the fire before the
food can be considered cooked and then returned to the fire by a Jew)
the bishul nochri prohibition will generally not be present. In the
latter case other factors must be determined and halachic guidance is
suggested.
In keeping with this rule, if the food was previously cooked by a Jew
and is merely being reheated by the nochri , no problem arises.
In summary, the bishul nochri prohibition applies only if all of the
following conditions exist :
1.the food was not fit to be eaten prior to the cooking
2.the food is fit to be served as a dish at a formal meal
3.the food was cooked entirely by a nochri (Gentile)
In a situation in which bishul nochri did occur, the vessels in which
the food was cooked are regarded as having non-kosher absorptions. It
is therefore necessary to kasher them prior to further use. However,
since the prohibition involved is only of Rabbinic origin, some
leniencies do apply. If the utensil in question is for some halachic
or practical reason incapable of undergoing a typical absorption
removal process, Rabbinic guidance may yield allowance to use it
without the conventional kashering.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Doc Tavish
Foreword: What you are about to see is a foremost example of bigotry.
Bigotry that largely goes unnoticed by the world in general but I am
now pointing it out. There are two disgusting forms of bigotry
displayed below and they are religious and racial bigotry!
Verify every word using the click link. How can this bigotry be
excused? It can't be excused but many will try. Pay very close
attention about what is aid at the end. If whites were to speak in
this manner concerning blacks or if whites were to deprive blacks of
similar employment then the Federal Government would intervene! Why
aren't discrimination suits being filed?
Link was active 2/5/98
http://kedemwines.com/kosher.htm
"What Makes Wine Kosher?"
Wine is a product which holds special meaning to many Jewish people.
As indicated by Jewish tradition, wine is present at Sabbath and
Holiday tables in order to say the Kiddush and increase the festivity.
Family celebration from circumcisions to weddings are enhanced by the
usage of wine as an integral part of the ceremony. A jubilant
"L'chaim", is shouted as Jews worldwide raise wine glasses aloft to
celebrate the miracle and blessing of life bestowed upon us by G-d. It
goes without saying that the wine used at these occasions should be
strictly Kosher. But just what does that mean?
Common knowledge may insist that the dubious distinction of Kosher
wine is related to the blessing of a rabbi. Past experience may
dictate that Kosher wines must be sweet and sticky in order to be
Kosher. However, this is not at all the case.
A simple definition of Kosher, is a food prepared in accordance with
Jewish dietary laws. Since Kosher law does not prohibit the use of
specific wine styles, grape varieties, or origin, any wine made in
accordance to these laws can be Kosher. This explains the
"surprisingly" large variety of Kosher wines available from New York,
California, France, Israel and Italy.
Kosher law for preparing wine, entails the following points:
1.Equipment used to make the wine are used exclusively for the
production of Kosher products.
2.The grapes and wine can be handled only by Sabbath observant Jews
from grape crushing to consumption, unless the wine is Mevushal
(pasteurized).
3.Only certified kosher products (yeast, filtering agents, etc.) can
be used.
The origin of the laws regarding handling by non-Jews stems from the
Torah, as a way of preventing intermarriage. Socializing with the wine
of non-Jews may lead to this eventuality. Therefore, as a safety
precaution, this prohibition was extended to wine touched by a
non-Jew.
Susan Cohen
Doc Tavish wrote:
> Foreword: What you are about to see is a foremost example of bigotry.
> Bigotry that largely goes unnoticed by the world in general but I am
> now pointing it out. There are two disgusting forms of bigotry
> displayed below and they are religious and racial bigotry!
> Verify every word using the click link. How can this bigotry be
> excused? It can't be excused but many will try
Geez, at least you admit it! (Gotta work on this projectionism: trips you
up every time)
{foremost example of Tavish's bigotry against Jews snipped}
John Winslow Brown
Susan Cohen <ze...@smart.net> wrote in article
<34DAAD63...@smart.net>...
>
>
> Doc Tavish wrote:
Foreword: What you are about to see is a foremost example of bigotry.
Bigotry that largely goes unnoticed by the world in general but I am
now pointing it out. There are two disgusting forms of bigotry
displayed below and they are religious and racial bigotry!
Verify every word using the click link. How can this bigotry be
excused? It can't be excused but many will try. Pay very close
attention about what is aid at the end. If whites were to speak in
this manner concerning blacks or if whites were to deprive blacks of
similar employment then the Federal Government would intervene! Why
aren't discrimination suits being filed?
> Geez, at least you admit it! (Gotta work on this projectionism: trips you
> up every time)
>
> {foremost example of Tavish's bigotry against Jews snipped}
What's wrong Susan Cohen? You can't make excuses for what your own people
wrote? I posted exactly what your tribe wrote and here it is restored in
full glory for all to see once again:
Link was active 2/5/98
http://kedemwines.com/kosher.htm
"What Makes Wine Kosher?"
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Here are other bits of Jewish racial and religious bigotry you can
apologize for as well:
Link was active 2/5/98
http://www.kosher-wine.com/wines/history.html
[ ... ]
[ ... ]
Some Kashrut Specifics
[ ... ]
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
http://bnaibrith.org/ijm/articles/wine/index.html
Vineyard Vanguard:
By Joseph Berkofsky
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
http://www.mcs.net/~kollel/www/halacha/fax210.html
HALACHA ON - LINE
Followup to above article:
http://www.mcs.net/~kollel/www/halacha/fax211.html
HALACHA ON - LINE
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Now perhaps Susan can appreciate why her people have so many problems in
the area of getting along with the rest of humanity. Susan the majority of
people have not been wrong for thousands of years. You own racial bigotry
blinds you to the truth!
Sir John Winslow Brown
Doc Tavish
http://www.carmelwines.com/fs_kashrut.html
Jewish dietary laws ensuring hygiene and purity are know as "Kashrut"
(purity).
Wine is used within Jewish religious ceremonies and blessings are made
over it, thus, the purity of the wine may not be in doubt - the wine
must be "Kosher".
This is achieved by following the regulations of Kashrut:
Wine produced in the Land of Israel is accepted as Kosher as long as
the following regulations are strictly observed:
1.In the first three years after a vine is planted, its flower buds
must be removed to prevent the formation of fruit ( a process known as
"Orlah"). Only grapes from the fourth year onwards may be used for
wine making.
2.Vegetables or other crops may not be grown between the vines or rows
of vines.
3.During the seventh or "Shmitta" year, the fields must be left
fallow. The very strictly observant will not purchase any agricultural
product grown in the Land of Israel during the 7th. year, although
this regulation is often circumvented by the nominal selling of the
land during the 7th. year to non-Jews.
4.From the time the grapes arrive at the winery, only Sabbath
observant Jews are allowed to work on the production of the wines, or
touch the wine making equipment.
5.All substances used in the production of the wines, such as fining
agents and filtering materials, must be certified as Kosher and be
free of any animal derivatives whatsoever.
6.The wine must be "Mevushal" to ensure that even if a non observant
Jew were to touch it whilst pouring, the wine would remain Kosher.
Today "Mevushal" is achieved by the procedure of flash pasteurisation.
7.The ceremony of "Maasar" is performed in which about 1% of the wine
is poured away, symbolising the tithe paid to the High Priests in the
time of the first and second Temples.
Carmel has its own Kashrut supervisor, Rabbi Avraham Yeshayahu
Yanovsky, who ensures that all the requirements are strictly adhered
to. His signature on the back label of the wines, together with the
stamps of approval of the Israeli Rabbinate, the American OU and Hug
Hatam Sofer guarantees that Carmel products meet the highest
standards, known as Kosher Lemehadrin and are Kosher for Passover and
all the year round.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Notice:
"4.From the time the grapes arrive at the winery, only Sabbath
observant Jews are allowed to work on the production of the wines, or
touch the wine making equipment."
In other words Gentiles are not allowed!
Doc Tavish
http://www.kashrus.org/kosher/supervis.html
[ ... ]
.... Wine, more than any other food or drink, represents the holiness
and separateness of the Jewish people.
It is used for the sanctification of Shabbat and Yom Tovand at Jewish
simchot. In the Beit Hamikdash wine was poured upon the Altar together
with the sacrifice. However, since wine was and still is used in many
forms of idolatrous worship, it has a unique status in Jewish Law,
which places extra restrictions on the making and handling of wine.
This includes wine used for non ceremonial purposes.
The production and handling of kosher wine must be done exclusively by
Jews. Wine, grape juice, and all products containing wine or grape
juice must remain solely in Jewish hands during the manufacturing
process and also after the seal of the bottle has been opened.
We are not allowed to drink any wine or grape juice, or any drink
containing wine or grape juice, which has been touched by a non Jew
after the seal of the bottle has been opened.
[ ... ]
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
All of the above applies to you if you are a Gentile! Click the link
and verify for yourself the bigotry of Jewry. All of the above is
their words NOT mine! I will keep posting this material from all the
sources that I find it to wake you all up!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
More bigotry from the same web page:
Grape Ingredients In Processed Foods: All liquids produced from fresh
or dried grapes, whether alcoholic or non alcoholic, such as grape
juice and wine vinegar, are in the same category as wine in Jewish
Law.
Therefore foods with grape flavoring or additives must aiways have a
reliable hechsher; examples are jam, soda, popsicles, candy, juice
packed fruit, fruit punch, and lemonade.
Alcoholic drinks such as cognac and brandy have wine bases. Liqueurs
and blended whiskeys are often blended with wine. All such beverages
require kashnut supervision, as does herring in wine sauce. Cream of
tartar is made from wine sediment and needs Rabbinical supervision.
All baked goods must have reliable kashrut certification. Some
bakeries in Jewish communities carry the certification from a local
Orthodox Rabbi or the kashrut board in that city.
In addition, bread, cake and other baked goods from a Jewish bakery
with reliable kashnut certification often ensures not only the kashrut
of these products but also that they are patYisrael. It is preferable
to use pat Yisrael products whenever possible. This means that a
Jewish person has baked or assisted in the baking of the products.
Even if he simply lit the oven he is considered as having assisted.
Non commercial bread and cake that is completely baked by an
individual non Jew is called pat akum and may not be eaten.
[ ... ]
Certain foods which were completely cooked by a non Jew (disbud akum)
may not be eaten, even if the foods are kosher and are cooked in
kosher utensils.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Why are Jews allowed to speak such disparaging stuff towards the rest
of humanity? If one group were to have such beliefs as these against
another group there would be a moral outrage of major proportions!
Doc Tavish
On Fri, 06 Feb 1998 09:57:30 -0500, jrb...@earthlink.net (Jeffrey G.
Brown)
Jeffrey G. Brown, who can only still make up childish subject titles
such as: "Poor ol' gutless Scottie flaunts his confusion" refuses to
face the reality that Jews are, indeed, religious and racial bigots.
He says I'm confused BUT look at all the evidence that testifies
against him neatly contained below with links to verify all material.
Jeffrey, I have news for you; you need to start checking DejaNews and
see all the news groups that I am posting this material to. I am going
to get two more ISPs to handle all of my traffic too! Remember that I
have overseas servers at my beckoning call as well. If you want to be
made to look like an imbecile then I'll be very happy to oblige you.
Lurkers just scroll down and see all the material available on Jewish
servers in which all the rest of mankinfd is maligned as being unfit
in the standards of Jewry.
>(doc_t...@bigfoot.com, phi...@phoenix.net) wrote:
>
>> What's wrong Susan Cohen? You can't make excuses for what your own people
>> wrote? I posted exactly what your tribe wrote...
Jeffrey G. Brown speaks:
>"Her people" and "her tribe" wrote nothing. Individual Jews wrote what poor
>ol' gutless Scottie is ranting about, and individual Jews bear the
>responsibility for what they wrote. Poor ol' gutless Scottie doesn't
>understand individual responsibility, you see, never having practiced it
>himself.
>
>Of course, the fact that what these individual Jews wrote doesn't mean what
>poor ol' gutless Scottie says they mean doesn't help his credibility one
>bit, either...
Is that so Mr. Brown? Well B'nai B'rith happens to be one of the
largest Jewish bodies in this country and look at what they published
in their magazine:
From B'nai B'rith (Mother of ADL):
http://bnaibrith.org/ijm/articles/wine/index.html
Vineyard Vanguard:
By Joseph Berkofsky
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
How about all of these examples from various Jewish websites. They all
seem to be in concert with each other so it is reasonable to believe
that what they say is a consenus of Jewish thought. Care to persist in
your feeble denial of racism and bigotry by Jewry Jeffrey?
Lurkers look at all of these examples and look at the absolute
futility of Jeffrey waging personal attacks against me!
Look:
http://www.kashrus.org/kosher/supervis.html
[ ... ]
.... Wine, more than any other food or drink, represents the holiness
and separateness of the Jewish people.
It is used for the sanctification of Shabbat and Yom Tovand at Jewish
simchot. In the Beit Hamikdash wine was poured upon the Altar together
with the sacrifice. However, since wine was and still is used in many
forms of idolatrous worship, it has a unique status in Jewish Law,
which places extra restrictions on the making and handling of wine.
This includes wine used for non ceremonial purposes.
The production and handling of kosher wine must be done exclusively by
Jews. Wine, grape juice, and all products containing wine or grape
juice must remain solely in Jewish hands during the manufacturing
process and also after the seal of the bottle has been opened.
We are not allowed to drink any wine or grape juice, or any drink
containing wine or grape juice, which has been touched by a non Jew
after the seal of the bottle has been opened.
[ ... ]
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
All of the above applies to you if you are a Gentile! Click the link
and verify for yourself the bigotry of Jewry. All of the above is
their words NOT mine! I will keep posting this material from all the
sources that I find it to wake you all up!
.....................................................................
[ ... ]
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
http://jcn18.com/forum/arcfoodt2961016.htm
Submit your questions on Kashrut issues in this forum, to be answered
by Rabbi J. Schonberger, who is back from vacation and has been busy
answering all your submissions.
To make reading easy, please add a <P> to separate between paragraphs
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Douglas Friedman (Douglas_...@ccmail.bus.umich.edu) Mon, Jul
01 1996 11:00:14 PM
1) What is the bsis for the requirement that meat and dairy be
separated?
2) Why is grape juice (and wine) subjected to much more restirctive
treatmentt than other juices, such as apple juice?
Douglas-- 1) The prohibition against eating meat and milk together is
biblical. The Torah mentions three times not to cook a kid in its
mother's milk: therefore, the rabbis have learned that there are 3
prohibitions: cooking meat and milk together, eating meat and milk
together, and deriving benefit from a mixture of milk and meat. There
are additional rabbinic prohibitions: eating a cold mixture of milk
and meat, eating poultry and milk, and waiting between eating meat and
eating milk.
2) The stricter rules regarding wine and grape juice come from a
general set of prohibitions trying to reduce the likelihood of
intermarraige. If a Jew and non-Jew drank wine together, it could lead
to a closer relationship, and intermarriage could result. So any wine
that has come into contact with a non-Jew is forbidden to a Jew. An
exception is made for cooked wine (mevushal), because it is believed
that it is of lower quality, and therefore less likely to cause a
strengthening of relationships.
[ ... ]
As to beer Vs. grape juice - the sage who set out to make it difficult
for Jews to party with gentiles (Rabbi Eliezer HaGadol), picked wine,
oil and bread as subjects of his decree, presumably because in his
environment these were key in aiding socializing.
By the way, I think wine, oil and bread were also elements used in
idol worshipping, so that one had grounds to suspect that - coming
from a gentile - these may have been used or intended for use in a
pagan orgy.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
http://www.pswtech.com/~stevenw/jewish/kosher/all.html
Steven Weintraub's Kashrut - Theory, Law and Practice Class Outline
and Notes
Steven Weintraub's Jewish Information pages
[ ... ]
III. Law is regulation of meat, but...
Kashrut laws only apply to items considered food. The ability to eat
non-food items because kosher laws do not apply to them might seem
crazy, but it should be pointed out that many of our additives are
derived from sources which we do not consider food. The Talmud comes
up with many criteria on what is a food. One of the first line tests
is whether a dog would eat it. If a dog would not eat it is not
considered a food (Those of us who own dogs and see what they will eat
recognize this as a good minimum test.)
[What Weintraub has evidently missed with his naive observation is
that many dogs will eat their own excrement! Does this mean that Jews
eat crap? :-) Tavish comment not in original text.]
As stated in the last lesson, kashrut is the regulation of eating
meat. Almost all kashrut laws put restrictions on eating meat in one
form or another. Remembering this might help in practice of certain
laws. I can only think of four rules that apply to non-meat products,
all of which are rabbinic in origin.
1.Grapes (particularly grape juice products) - Because of the long
standing practice to grow grapes (particularly wine) for idolatry, the
Rabbis prohibited the eating of grape and grape products if they were
grown by an unsupervised non-Jew. Grape juice must not be in the
possession of a non-Jew unsupervised unless it is made unfit for
idolatry by boiling (Thus most kosher wine is quick boiled to allow
non-Jewish middle-men to handle it). The Orthodox adhere to this
strictly. The Conservative CJLS recognizes (under a teshuvah of Rabbi
Silverman) that this is no longer a problem and have relaxed this
prohibition to allow general use of grape and grape products, but
supervised grape products are still to be used for ritual purposes. A
recent investigation by Rabbi Dorff has shown that treif components
might be used and wine production. As a result a change in this policy
to only allowing supervised may soon take place.
2.Milk - Because the practice of mixing the milk of clean and unclean
animals used to be prevalent (and to increase the Jewish dairy trade),
the Rabbis decreed that milk should only be used if produced by a Jew
or under the supervision of a Jew. The Modern Orthodox recognize that
government regulation is sufficient to prevent bad mixing, so in many
Western countries milk is considered OK to drink. This is also the
Conservative position. There are still some Orthodox groups who (as a
chumra or "stringency" to guard the law) don't follow this.
Next time you are in Williamsburg or Crown Heights look for signs in
restaurants which say/ "Chalav Yisrael" or Jewish milk.
3.Cheese - Not only is there the problem with mixing, there is a
problem with rennet (the enzyme used to separate milk into curds and
whey). Rennet originally derives from the stomach of an animal and is
thus a meat product. As such it must come from a halachicly slain
animal. Since the rabbis saw this as a problem, they decreed that only
Jewish supervised cheese can be used. The many Orthodox adhere to
this. Milk for strict Orthodox cheese is separated with kosher rennet,
in non-rennet based ways or (as is now more common) using vegetable
based rennet. The Conservative CJLS has ruled that in processing,
rennet becomes a non-food and thus kashrut does not apply to it.
Therefore the CJLS has ruled that all cheese products can be eaten.
4.Health - Jewish law strickly forbids behavior that are dangerous to
one's health. Food that will harm your health can not be eaten. This
provision can be interpreted widely or narrowly, although a fairly
narrow definition is generally used (i.e. fatty foods can be eaten
(Yeah!) unless you are restricted by a doctors order). One behavior
this rule has been applied to recently has been to smoking. Many of
the major Orthodox groups now ban smoking. Also it was (in ancient and
medieval times) thought that eating meat and fish together was back
for one's health. Eating this combination was banned at that time.
Many Orthodox Jews still practice this tradition.
There are five areas of practice that affect the food. These are :
1.Challah - in baking bread (of wheat, oats, spelt, rye or barley) one
must take a portion and burn it in the oven reciting the proper
blessing. This portion is known as challah (not the bread). This is
not necessary for bread baked by non-Jew or dough in very small
amounts (less than 3 lbs). Any bread made without this blessing is not
considered kosher. Because of the question of what is a small amount,
dough between 3 and 5 lbs. should have challah taken, but no blessing
should be done. (Note OU says the weights are 2 lbs. 10 oz. and 4 lbs.
15 oz. - Pollock says anything over 3 lbs requires blessing).
2.The reciting of blessing - All meals must be accompany by the proper
blessings.
3.The breaking of a mitzvah in the preparation of food traditionally
renders that food unkosher. This means food cooked (as opposed to
reheated) on Shabbat is unkosher (with exceptions). Both Orthodox and
Conservative positions on this are the same.
4.Chametz owned over Pesah is not kosher and can not be used or sold.
5.Extremely fine food prepared completely by non-jewish hands. The
food we are talking about are literally stated as those fit for a
king. The key word he is completely. The Ashkenazi custom is that as
long as a Jew does as little as light the stove, the food is kosher.
The Sephardic custom is more stringent.
It should be noted that violation of these rules does not unkasher the
appliance used, only makes the food prepared unfit.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
http://www.carmelwines.com/fs_kashrut.html
...............................................................................................................
Notice:
"4.From the time the grapes arrive at the winery, only Sabbath
observant Jews are allowed to work on the production of the wines, or
touch the wine making equipment."
In other words Gentiles are not allowed!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
http://kedemwines.com/kosher.htm
"What Makes Wine Kosher?"
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
http://www.kosher-wine.com/wines/history.html
[ ... ]
[ ... ]
Some Kashrut Specifics
[ ... ]
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
boldly say concerning the rest of all of mankind!
BTW Jeffrey, I really love burying you along with all the other filth
and vermin. This is being posted through many servers and many news
groups. TTFN
Doc Tavish
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>JGB
>
>=====================================================================
>Jeffrey G. Brown jrb...@earthlink.net
> "What's going to happen?" "Something wonderful..." -- '2010'
Gregory Taylor
As usual Scottie "Letting My Flop Flag Fly!!!" Bradbury entertains us
with his coctail of cowardice and ignorance. In his squeaky "Tavish" voice:
>We are not allowed to drink any wine or grape juice, or any drink
>containing wine or grape juice, which has been touched by a non Jew
>after the seal of the bottle has been opened.
Perhaps Scottie's only been near religious traditions where things like
the Lord's Supper are celebrated with tap water and day-old hot dog buns.
He's certainly unaware of any number of observances for things like the
Host and Wine for liturgical eucharists. If he really once *was* a member
of the Jehovah's Witnesses before the spirochetes started feasting on his
cerebellum, perhaps we could discover an answer by interrogating *their*
religious practice. Can anyone comment on the extent to which the Watchtower
folks have any sort of sacramental theology?
My experience would certainly suggest that he's unlikely to have encountered
*any* of many religious traditions which set certain kinds of food or
other objects aside for use by insiders in the community. As is his usual
custom, he assumes that his ignorance of the range of behaviour among
peoples constitutes proof of his bias set.
That material was covered in the 8th and 9th grades. Stay in school,
kids!
--
When I pronounce the word Future,/the first syllable already belongs to the
past./When I pronounce the word Silence,/I destroy it./When I pronounce the
word Nothing,/I make something no nonbeing can hold./ (Wislawa Szymborska)
Gregory Taylor WORT-FM URL:http://www.msn.fullfeed.com/~gtaylor/RTQE.html
Doc Tavish
DR.MEOFF
>>> Any one can be converted to Judaism but they continue to be the race
they were. They might practice the j*wish religion but they are still black
white or what-ever. Now a j*w in race is a person with J*ws for parents. You
know the type like shown on CNN, in Israel arm to the teeth ready to kill
arabs. If j*ws are not a race, then Hilter was trying to get rid of a
certain religion and not the j*wish race. Which means a j*w not active in
Judaism would be safe from harm. Sounds kinda like what doc Tavish says. So
history is a lie. Hitler could'nt have tried to kill a race thats "Not a
race".
Graham Daveney wrote in message <6bhknh$a3f$1...@daveney.matra.com.au>...
>Doc Tavish (doc_t...@nonspam.bigfoot.com) wrote:
>: On Fri, 06 Feb 1998 09:57:30 -0500, jrb...@earthlink.net (Jeffrey G.
>: Brown)
>:
>: Jeffrey G. Brown, who can only still make up childish subject titles
>: such as: "Poor ol' gutless Scottie flaunts his confusion" refuses to
>: face the reality that Jews are, indeed, religious and racial bigots.
>
>
>Are you going to tell all the people that converted to Judaism and became
>Jews that they changed their race as well as their religion when they
became
>a Jew ?
>
>You seem to have read widley regarding Judaism, but unfortunately you
havent
>read any of the works on "Conversion to Judaism".
>
>
>Graham
>
>
>
>
>
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>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>msup...@microsoft.com
>ask...@microsoft.com
>bi...@microsoft.com
>res...@microsoft.com
Michael
On 7 Feb 1998 23:40:17 +1100, gra...@daveney.matra.com.au (Graham Daveney) wrote:
>Doc Tavish (doc_t...@nonspam.bigfoot.com) wrote:
>: On Fri, 06 Feb 1998 09:57:30 -0500, jrb...@earthlink.net (Jeffrey G.
>: Brown)
>: Jeffrey G. Brown, who can only still make up childish subject titles
>: such as: "Poor ol' gutless Scottie flaunts his confusion" refuses to
>: face the reality that Jews are, indeed, religious and racial bigots.
>There is no such thing as the Jewish race.
Of course there is. Don't be silly.
>Are you going to tell all the people that converted to Judaism and became
>Jews that they changed their race as well as their religion when they became
>a Jew ?
I would call them what jews call them behind their back: "stupid goy".
>You seem to have read widley regarding Judaism, but unfortunately you havent
>read any of the works on "Conversion to Judaism".
Well there are jews and *real* jews. Ya know?
<sig converted to snot>
+++++++++++++++++++++++++
Michael
natio...@juno.com
"http://www.natall.com"
"http://www.natvan.com"
National Vanguard Books
P.O. Box 330
Hillsboro, WV 24946
"No man has come to true greatness who has not felt
in some degree that his life belongs to his race."
----Phillips Brooks
+++++++++++++++++++++++++
Get the text of American Dissident Voices broadcasts by e-mail!
Subscribe to our mailing list by sending an e-mail message to:
ADV...@ListServe.com which contains the
word _subscribe_ as the subject of your message.
You may also get them from our FTP site at: ftp://natvan.com
mad...@uscom.com
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
gra...@daveney.matra.com.au (Graham Daveney) wrote:
>Doc Tavish (doc_t...@nonspam.bigfoot.com) wrote:
>: On Fri, 06 Feb 1998 09:57:30 -0500, jrb...@earthlink.net (Jeffrey
>G.
>: Brown)
>:
>: Jeffrey G. Brown, who can only still make up childish subject
>titles
>: such as: "Poor ol' gutless Scottie flaunts his confusion" refuses
>to
>: face the reality that Jews are, indeed, religious and racial
>bigots.
>
>There is no such thing as the Jewish race.
>
>Are you going to tell all the people that converted to Judaism and
>became
>Jews that they changed their race as well as their religion when
>they became
>a Jew ?
>
>You seem to have read widley regarding Judaism, but unfortunately
>you havent
>read any of the works on "Conversion to Judaism".
>
>
>Graham
>
>
>
Doc Tavish is a CRIMINAL WANTED FROM THE FBI, he is a NAZI not an ARAB
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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>
>
>
>
>msup...@microsoft.com
>ask...@microsoft.com
>bi...@microsoft.com
>res...@microsoft.com
*************************************************
* This message has been signed with the support *
* of an unregistered copy of PGPeep (tm), the *
* Forte (Free) Agent <-> PGP 5.0 interface. *
* *
* Details: http://www.poboxes.com/pgpeep/ *
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madayn
Joseph Hertzlinger
In <OtFaOR9...@upnetnews02.moswest.msn.net> "DR.MEOFF"
<wh...@88.power> writes with a faulty "e" key:
>Any one can be converted to Judaism but they continue to be the race
>they were. They might practice the j*wish religion but they are still
>black white or what-ever. Now a j*w in race is a person with J*ws for
>parents.
... and what for grandparents?
>You know the type like shown on CNN, in Israel arm to the teeth ready
>to kill arabs.
You mean the cousins of some of us?
>If j*ws are not a race, then Hilter was trying to get rid of a
>certain religion and not the j*wish race. Which means a j*w not
>active in Judaism would be safe from harm. Sounds kinda like what doc
>Tavish says. So history is a lie. Hitler could'nt have tried to kill a
>race thats "Not a race".
Take a number. You're the third person in the past few days who's
explained what "goyische kopf" means.
If someone tries to kill a goat because he's trying to rid the world of
unicorns, that does not mean the goat is a unicorn.
BTW, if Jews are a race, which one? The race of the supremacists
described in the Doc Tavish version of Deuteronomy? The race of the
Idumeans? The race of the Khazars? Or what?
Joseph Hertzlinger
In <34e0f380...@news.thegrid.net> natio...@juno.com (Michael )
writes:
>>Are you going to tell all the people that converted to Judaism and
>>became Jews that they changed their race as well as their religion
>>when they became a Jew ?
>
>I would call them what jews call them behind their back: "stupid goy".
No. We call _you_ "stupid goy."
>>You seem to have read widley regarding Judaism, but unfortunately you
>>havent read any of the works on "Conversion to Judaism".
>
>Well there are jews and *real* jews. Ya know?
He probably does know more than you.
DR.MEOFF
> Just one of many races in the world.
Joseph Hertzlinger wrote in message
<6bjeve$c...@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com>...
David S. Maddison
In article <34db3b88...@news.smart1.net> Fri, 06 Feb 1998
16:35:06 GMT doc_t...@nonspam.bigfoot.com (Doc Tavish) wrote:
[..]
>All of the above applies to you if you are a Gentile! Click the link
>and verify for yourself the bigotry of Jewry. All of the above is
>their words NOT mine! I will keep posting this material from all the
>sources that I find it to wake you all up!
[..]
I sometimes wonder if its worthwhile to waste time with anti-Semites
like you Doc, but I'm sure you'd be able to work out the answers to
your questions if you a) thought about what is being said or b) read
other material on the various Web pages you quote.
>Why are Jews allowed to speak such disparaging stuff towards the rest
>of humanity? If one group were to have such beliefs as these against
>another group there would be a moral outrage of major proportions!
You posted nothing that is disparaging of non-Jews. With respect to
the kashrut of wine, one of the central tenets of Judaism is
opposition to idol worship. Since, in ancient times, the production
and consumption of wine was often associated with idol worship, the
Sages ruled that Jews should not use such wine and should instead make
their own. This way the wine would be guaranteed to be free of any
association with pagan rituals. Seems a pretty sensible thing to do
don't you think? I'm sure sacramental wine and bread used in Christian
rituals is also especially prepared.
As for other aspect of kashrus you mention, normally production of
kosher food is done under some sort of supervision, or at least
knowledge as to the ingredients with a guarantee that they will
contain what is claimed. The religious laws relating to kashrus are
very complicated and many Jews don't know them - it requires experts
in the field to provide the supervision.
It is hardly likely that non-Jews would be familiar with the
intricacies of kashrut, especialy when most Jews are not familiar with
it themselves. It would be like asking a chef to repair a car -
different experts are required for different jobs. The intention of
the laws of kashrut are simply to ensure that the right experts are
involved on the job. Most Jews themselves, would not be acceptable as
kosher supervisors, BTW.
In any case, I'd hardly like my food to be supervised by an
anti-Semitic loser like you!
David Maddison
Jeffrey G. Brown
In article <34db2b43...@news.smart1.net>, Scott "I didn't understand
it the first twenty times I posted it, so I guess I'll show off my
ignorance again" Bradbury (doc_t...@bigfoot.com, phi...@phoenix.net)
wrote:
> Notice:
> "4.From the time the grapes arrive at the winery, only Sabbath
> observant Jews are allowed to work on the production of the wines, or
> touch the wine making equipment."
>
> In other words Gentiles are not allowed!
Yup. But the careful observer will note that poor ol' gutless Scottie
doesn't have a clue as to why that is -- and, in fact, regularly and
deliberately lies about the reason.
JGB
=====================================================================
Jeffrey G. Brown jeff_...@bigfoot.com
Barry S. Marjanovich
On Sun, 8 Feb 1998, Boris Pribich (Sick SERV) wrote:
> Dear reader, to this Serb Jews are a race of traitors. In WWII they died
> together with the Serbs and fifty years later they turned against us. We
> saved thousands of them from the Nazis and today it's all forgotten.
>
(translated into English)
ANTI-SEMITISM IN SERBIA DURING WORLD WAR II
BY LJUBICA STEFAN
Some important historical facts about Serbia, before and during the Second
World War and up to the present time, are still being intentionally not
disclosed and are being distorted on purpose, not only in that country but
also abroad, where, we believe, this is a result of the lack of knowledge
of the truth, because of the furious over fifty-year long Yugoslav and
Serbian propaganda, which sadly has been very successful.
That's the reason it is necessary to point these facts - briefly or in
more detail - whenever we speak about that dark period which in fact is
only one of the similar events which had occured through the centuries of
Serbia's history.
Even today Serbia carries a halo of a heroic small martyr-country which
had supposedly made a great contribution in the battle and for the victory
of the anti-Hitler coalition as one of the members of that coalition. This
is completely untrue. Serbia was not one of the miserable occupied
countries exposed to the German terror. During the whole war, Serbia was
the most trustworthy ally of the Third Reich on the territory of Europe
under the Nazi domination. Unlike in the other lands of former Yugoslavia
there was no organized, and even less widespread, armed anti-Hitler
movements in Serbia.
When England, at the end, stopped to support and glorify Draza Mihajlovic;
even Radio London reported, as noted by the Serbian press of the time, the
following warning from Minister Harrison: "It's up to the Serbs to
illuminate their faces in the last moment and wash themselves of stains.
Remember Serbs! There will be no return to the Greater Serbia hegemony!
There's been enough of exploitation of other nations in Yugoslavia by the
Serbs. You have one more chance to save yourselves. There's been enough of
plundering and enjoying by the Serbian people while other peoples fought".
During the Second World War, Serbia was a state in every sense of the
word. It had a government, organized ministries, independent governments
in cities and villages, its own army equipped by the Germans as follows:
Nedic's Serbian government sentinels and the Serbian guard, the elite
Ljotic's Serbian volunteer corps, the Serbian border guard, the Serbian
field guards as well as many Chetnik troops. Under the framework of the
Interior Ministry operated a well-staffed and well-organized Serbian
police, with their numerous prisons, as well as the custom's service and
special police schools. In the villages and cities all elementary and
secondary schools continued to operate, many newspapers and magazines were
published, as well as many books, even new theaters and movie houses were
opened, all museums were open, paintings exhibitions and concerts
continued to be presented, and "The Official News" announced new laws and
regulations by the Serbian government. The Serbian National Bank, headed
by a Serbian governor, issued the new Serbian currency which had a set
rate of exchange not only with the German mark, but also with other
important European currencies, including the kuna - all of this could be
found in the press. Old Serbian flags were displayed everywhere,
prominently displayed was the Serbian coat-of-arms, glorified and lamented
was Kosovo and the heavenly Prince Lazar, also glorified were Saint Sava
and the Karadjordjevics, etc. etc. And it was believed, until the very
end, that a reward would be received in the creation of Great Serbia after
the victory of Hitler!
Anti-Semitism is, besides the military conquering genocidal Saint Sava's
Orthodoxy, also one of the constants of the ideology and policies of the
Serbian Orthodox Church, before the Second World War, during the war and
up to the present time. Namely, the Serbian Orthodox Church is in fact a
sort of a political party and even racist, having totally neglected its
pastoral and spiritual work.
In the face of the Second World War, anti-Semitism was growing and
spreading in Serbia. The chief generators for anti-Semitism were the
fascist party of Dimitrije Ljotic called "Zbor" and high church officials,
as well as the church press. Ljotic spurred on Serbian population with
his statements and writings, as such: "Jews use the explosive in their
hearts to destroy Christian societies and bring them disaster. In all
domains of human life we can feel the destructive work of the Jewish
spirit." And like this: "The Jewishness presents itself as a social and
national danger, which we have to liberate ourselves from." Ljotic's role
model and ideal was the leader of the Third Reich, and he praised him like
this: "Hitler is a tool of God's foresight. But a tool which cannot be
stopped anymore until the complete fulfilling of his assigned task." A
great number of Serbian Orthodox priests were very active members of
"Zbor". The most prominent among them was the chief ideologist of
Orthodoxy and anti-Semitism in the Serbian Church bishop Nikolaj
Velimirovic, who as early as 1934 received a decoration from Hitler.
Probably as a sign of appreciation he published in 1935 a book about Saint
Sava with this thought in it: "We have to pay respects to the present
German Leader, who in the 20th century came upon the idea about Saint Sava
and who even though a non-professional took upon himself a task within his
own nation which is fit only for a saint, genius and hero." Several years
later - in 1939 - he preaches racism publicly: "We are people of the Arian
race to whom the destiny has given an glorious role...so that tribes of
weaker races and lower religions are no more...". In "the Buletin of the
Serbian Orthodox Patriarchate" there were frequent writings about Jews
like this: "Jews are the enemy, cunning as a snake and dangerous". In that
publication appeared statements from Patriarch Varnava, which were given
to German newspapers in 1937: "Fuhrer is fighting a battle which benefits
all humanity", "God sent to the German people a farseeing Fuhrer. We
trust his sincere word." Sometimes before, Varnava called the Soviet
government "The Jewish swindling gang".
Germany invaded Yugoslavia on April 6, 1941; and on April 12, her army
entered Belgrade without a fight. Belgrade was abandoned by the
Yugoslavian army and its government on the first day of the war. An
unconditional surrender was signed by the Royal generals of the army on
April 17.
The administrator of Belgrade Milicevic on the very day that Germans
entered Belgrade, announced to citizens in a poster that the Serbian
police had already been organized and armed. Several days later Dragi
Jovanovic was appointed a new administrator of Belgrade (in which position
he remained until the end of the war). Dragi Jovanovic was at the same
time the chief of the Serbian police and later became the chief of the
Serbian security. The Serbian police had limitless power which is shown
in statements made by SS general Harald Turner only six months after
his arrival to Belgrade: "I worked hard to put in place the police
operation with exceptional speed. Today all executive powers in the
Serbian lands are handled by the Serbian police and gendarmerie, which
received weapons...internal relations are regulated by domestic organs,
without German interference". Dragi Jovanovic himself in a report to
Gestapo said: "The ocupation forces could always rely on the Belgrade
police. All assignments were completed by the Special police with great
elan and success as no other police had done in cities of occupied
Europe." And in 1946, in a court in Belgrade, he stated this: "Our results
were better and greater than even of that of Gestapo in Belgrade". First
four months the head of Serbia was Milan Acimovic with his Council of
Commissars, and then the power was taken over by the Serbian government of
Milan Nedic, former minister of Yugoslavian army, pro-German and
anti-Semite. Due to very close cooperation between all Serbian governments
and police with Germans, SS general Harald Turner reported as early as
1942: "Serbia is a land in which the Jewish and Gypsy questions have been
solved." Franz Rademacher from the Nazi Ministry of Foreign Affairs
reported: "The Jewish question in Serbia is not current, now all we need
to resolve are the judicial questions in regard to properties." The chief
of the German security service in Serbia A. Schafer bragged: "Belgrade -
the only city of bigger cities in Europe, cleaned of Jews, became
'Judenfrei'". Let's recall the historical fact: the inglorious first
place in Europe in genocide of Jews was taken over by Serbia only three
months after a meeting between Reinhard Heydrich, chief of German Security
Service, Heinrich Muller, chief of Gestapo and Adolf Eichmann, chief of
special department for Jews, which was held January 20, 1942 on lake
Wansee close to Berlin, when a decision was taken to initiate (only then!)
"the final solution of the Jewish question". That is, the last Jews in
camp Sajmiste were murdered already at the end of April and the beginning
of May of that year...
The Holocaust in Serbia is until to the present time not very well covered
as a topic, it's even a taboo subject. The Jewish as well as the Serbian
sources give relatively little information, mostly fragmetary,
nevertheless a whole picture can be ascertained. There is a record
like this: "Only seven days after entering Belgrade the Germans announced
that all Jews must be registered on the Tasmajdan (the location of the
Serbian police headquarters). Before that they formed a police force, with
the aid of the Serbian police and the city's administration, which was to
handle Jews. Every Jew was issued a yellow ribbon." Another source says
that those first ribbons had a sign of "Jude" and "a seal of the
administrator of the city of Belgrade." On one original ribbon which has
been preserved (apparently from later time) it reads in German "Jude" and
in the Serbian cyrillic letters "Jevrejin" (Serbian for Jew). There remain
other documents; " The Jewish question was studied by the Serbian Ministry
of Internal Affairs, which took every effort to always execute all its
commitments on time." It says further: "Using domestic traitors the
Gestapo trained them into a 'Special Police' for fighting the
Jewish-Communist actions! This force colaborated closely with the Gestapo
and was frequently the initiator of joint actions. The wages for their
personnel were paid from a fund into which the Belgrade Jews had to
deposit 1,400,000 dinars. From that fund they also paid out rewards for
the caught and killed..." As early as May of 1941, the Germans announced
that "All Jews must report to the Serbian police", "they cannot be public
servants, they must be removed form such jobs by the Serbian government
immediately", the Jews were then forbidden to hold a whole list of
professional jobs, they could not attend theaters or movie-houses etc.,
and the Serbian government was decreed "to be responsible for execution of
all such orders", which it carried out fully and promtly, with a praise
from the press at the time: "Jews will never again be doctors,
pharmacists, lawyers, judges in Serbia. The Serbs had opened their eyes
at last". Further orders came from Dragi Jovanovic, and then from the
Ministry of Justice and even from the Musicians' Union and others,
demanding from the Jews, for example, to surrender their radios and
cold-boxes, threatening citizens who hide Jewish property or who give
secret shelter to the Jews, liquidating Jewish law offices and putting in
their place Serbian keepers, forbidding Jews to ride on the Belgrade
street-cars, refusing to issue Jewish musicians work permits, etc.
Following through in their battle for the pure Aryan race, there were job
ads in the newspapers for various services in which one of the first
conditions was that a person must be "of pure Aryan race, not to have
Jewish or Gypsy blood". And the certificates of race purity, it was
noted, were issued by a local Serbian government.
Nedic's "Ministerial Council" in one of its official orders announced:
"The property of Jews who were citizens of former Yugoslavia as of April
15, 1941, if they reside on the Serbian territory, belongs to Serbia,
without any compensation". The confiscated property was then put on a
public auction by the Council for Property Management of the National Bank
by advertising such properties in the daily press. In one such listing of
property was the synagogue of Nis, which is still today used as one of the
departments of the city museum. The Jews had to contribute 4,834,231
dinars for the administration budget of the city of Belgrade, and also
1,000,000 dinars for the county. According to the Jewish sources 33% of
the buyers of Jewish property were Serbs. And some "worthy" Serbs were
given awards from the plundered Jewish funds. In an written order from a
Gestapo major, Karl Kraus, it says that "starting on July 1, 1941, every
month, payments will be made to the chief of police in Belgrade in the
amount of 10,000 dinars and to his assistant in the amount of 6,000
dinars, from all the Jewish monies that are collected without receipts."
The Gestapo also rewarded members of the Special Police with 10,000 to
20,000 dinars each.
Physical liquidation of Serbian Jews began immediately in the spring of
1941. Before the fall of that year, almost all men were killed, and women
and children and the remaining men, were liquidated by the end of April -
beginning of May 1942. The precise number of the killed are not even
available from the Jewish sources. Nevertheless, according to the data
from the historian Jasa Romano it can be ascertained that 88% of the total
number of Serbian Jews were killed. However, the Serbian historian
Sretenije Zorkic states that of the 11,870 Belgrade Jews, only 1,115
survived the war, which is somewhat more than 9%. The Jews in Serbia were
not only captured and killed by the Germans, but also by the Serbian
police, Nedic's volunteers and chetniks. Most Serbian Jews were killed in
the concentration camps Banjica and Sajmiste. Not a single Jew ever
managed to flee alive from the camps.
Camp Banjica in Belgrade was established in July 1941, and was liquidated
in September 1994, a month before the German troops withdrew from
Belgrade.
At a meeting of the Serbian police and the Gestapo in June 1941, it was
decided to convert the former Yugoslav army barracks on the outskirts of
the city into a concentration camp. A document about that decision was
signed by Dragi Jovanovic and the first prisoners were brought in July 9.
Svetozar Vujkovic was put in charge of the camp, in the Serbian section of
the camp, while the smaller German part of the camp was managed by the
Gestapo. The overall commander of the camp and his assistant were German.
The German and Serbian sides of the camp were completely separate.
Prisoners were under heavy guard. "Machine guns and search lights were
installed on the towers. From these towers, two-men guards were observing
day and night - one SS guard and one gendarme from Special Police. Later
on, when the police attained a greater trust from the occupiers, German
guards were withdrawn." The same Serbian source continues: "The apparatus
of the camp management also included the key-keepers with their own
commander at the head. They were chosen from the former gendarmes, now the
members of the Serbian Guard."
From partly saved documents from the Serbian section of the concentration
camp it is seen that 23,697 persons were registered there, 3,489 were
executed. The German and Serbian police started to destroy documents at
the end of 1943, and dig up and burn bodies of the executed so that it is
not known how many victims there were, nor how many of them were Jews and
how many Serbs and others. The only thing that is known for sure: none of
the Jews ever came out alive from Banjica... They were killed, just like
the rest of the prisoners in the yard of the camp, executed in the
village of Jajinci under Avala, in the Jewish and Central cemetery in
Belgrade. Executions were done jointly by the Gestapo, Special Police and
the Serbian National Guard. All lists of victims found were written by
hand exclusively in the Serbian alphabet. Prisoners were sent to the camp
by the SS troops, the German police, the Belgrade city administration, the
Serbian city police, The Serbian National Guard, Ljotic's volunteers,
Serbian courts, the county and village offices from all-over Serbia.
The execution lists were put together by the Special Police. The lists
were compiled by the head of the camp, Vujkovic, followed by a Gestapo
commander and his assistant. From the rare saved lists it can be seen even
children were executed: up to 7 years old - 22 children, up to 14 years
old - 26 children, up to 17 years old - 76 children...Executed were even
mothers with small children in their arms. Belgrade grave diggers recall:
"The Gestapo men and agents of the Special Police dragged out women one by
one from armored cars. Two men would hold each woman's arms, and a third
man, when she was dragged to the edge of a pit, would shoot her in the
head, and then she was thrown in it." A Jewish source says: "From 1942
until September 1944, the Jews who took shelter in some villages in Serbia
were taken to Banjica as they were caught by Ljotic's volunteers, Nedic's
men and chetniks and were turned over to the Germans; for each Jew they
caught they received a monetary reward."
The only Jews who survived in Serbia were the ones who were not discovered
in the isolated Serbian villages where they hid with peasants. In
his written statement after the war one Jew who survived said this: "Draza
Mihailovic's Chetniks chased Jews without mercy, especially the Chetnik
troops which came from Ravna Gora ( Draza's headquarters) from whom we
had to hide just like from the Germans. I do know that these Chetniks
killed in the most horrible manner several Jewish families in that
region."
The greatest number of Serbian Jews were killed in the camp SAJMISTE.
Exact data, documentaion hardly exists, but it is thought that the number
of victims is at least 11,000. The camp was formed on the left bank of
Sava at the railway bridge at the entrance to Belgrade, where stood
pavilions of the Belgrade Fair, that's the reason for the name Sajmiste.
These grounds, at that time empty, deserted and swampy, were part of the
territory of the NDH - several kilometers from Zemun, and the Germans
demanded that it be released under their control. Nevertheless, it is
completely untrue that the camp was an Ustasha camp, how the Serbian
propaganda maintains sometimes even today, eventhough not one Ustasha ever
stepped into that camp. The commander of the camp was Androfer, as well as
his assistant, and the rules and discipline were enforced by the Camp
Council on orders from the Gestapo. The Council was exclusively composed
of the prisoners, at first only of the Jews, because there were no other,
later, of some agents of the Serbian police, and "The Department for
social welfare of the City of Belgrade" had to provide food. At the
beginning of December, 1941, Serbian police distributed calls to the Jews
of Belgrade to report to the Special Police and surender the keys of their
apartments.
The delivery of Jews, mostly women and children, lasted from December 8 to
12. The conditions in the camp were more than hard - dampness, cold,
epidemics, and hunger. The Jewish source says: "The food was awful. But
frequently, the City high officials would not allow delivery even of the
minimal quantities of food. Among the Nedic's officials there were people
who were not any better than the Germans themselves." Because of such
poor food provisions ( which is almost unbelievable) even the German
commanders complained, but the answer of the City of Belgrade high
officials to the Germans was also unbelievable and even arrogant: "For
the Jewish camp, deliveries can only be made when all other needs are
taken care of."
The prisoners who died from hunger and cold and were shipped across
frozen Sava to Belgrade, where they were buried. Many (it's not known how
many) were taken for execution also to Belgrade, and they were killed in
the same manner and at the same places as the prisoners from Banjica. Some
were gased by the Germans in a special van on the way to Belgrade and then
buried at Jajinci, the number of such cases is also not known. Some were
transported to camps in other countries ( it's not known how many and to
where). When the number of imprisoned Jews started to fall off, other
prisoners, Serbs and others started to arrive. One of them remembers:
"The criminals were the same as in Banjica. The same masters were there -
the Germans, the Nedic's men and the rest of the Serbian fascists."
According to some sources all Jews in that camp were liquidated by May 9,
1942. Belgrade became "Judenfrei."
Another Serbian prisoner who survived wrote in his book of memories:
"Several thousand Jews passed through Sajmiste...Over the walls of the
pavilions there were long writings of that tragic history, and in many
places there were artistically done portraits. We spent days looking at
these last traces of thousands of people.There were Serbian survivors who
told us about many details of Jewish lives at Sajmiste, and those that
allowed the Jews to write their last farewell thoughts and solemn
promises."
But of all that, there is not a trace today at Sajmiste. Who of the
"liberators" erased that, destroyed, eliminated that without a trace? At
the same time, in the remaining pavilions, which contain offices and
wharehouses, there is not even a smallest plaque which would remind that
in this place was the horrible concentration camp, mostly for Jews. The
European Parliament passed a resolution on February 11, 1993 on the
European and international protection of the concentration camps as
cultural monuments. But, it seems, this does not apply to Sajmiste. Even,
in Jerusalem, in The Memorial Centre Jad Vasem, in the Hall of
Remembrance, among 22 biggest camp for Jews in Europe, there is no
Sajmiste - the biggest execution site for Jews in Serbia. Of all the
camps on the territory of the former Yugoslavia, only the name of
Jasenovac is written down! Is it intentionally left for history that all
the Serbian Jews were apparently killed in the NDH, in Jasenovac?
What about the SPC (Serbian Orthodox Church)? How it behave during the WW
II? There was never a word from the church in condemnation of genocide,
yellow ribbons, concentration camps, racism. Representatives of the Holy
Synod went to bow to a German military commander as soon as the Germans
arrived and announced, first in the press, and later verbally, and this:
"The Holy Synod will faithfully follow the laws and orders of the
occupying and state authorties and will encourage through its
organizations a complete maintenance of order and peace and obedience."
The church leaders stayed faithful to the promises they made to the very
end. They never went against their word given to "the Father of Serbia",
general Milan Nedic, when they said: "The Serbian Orthodox church in the
spirit of the Saint Sava's Orthodoxy will always fight on his side." It's
not known if there was ever one Serbian Orthodox church priest who saved
even one Jew or even tried to save one, but some of them frequently in
their sermons openly stated their antisemitic stands, enciting their
parishioners against Jews. Metropolitan Josif, as the head of the Serbian
church, during the war put his signature with ease under the orders that
the Jews be prohibited from switching to the Serbian Orthodox church,
eventough, that would had been a straw for them to save their lives. Three
bishops were the first to sign "the Appeal to the Serbian nation", in
which the intellectual elite of Serbia, over 500 of them, in August 1941,
publically expressed their support to the occupiers and quislings, which
was a unique case in Europe in the whirlwind of war.
One of the clearest manifestations of Serbian antisemitism was the
antimasonic, more precisely, the anti-Jewish exihibition opened in
Belgrade on October 22, 1941, and which was designed to support and
justify the genocide over the Jews in Serbia and Europe. Besides the
exhibits at the exhibition, an enormous amount of propaganda material was
prepared: over 200 thousand various brochures, 60 thousand posters, 100
thousand flyers, 108 thousand of samples of 9 different types of
envelopes, 176 propaganda movie clips, four different postage stamps etc.
Organizers boasted: "This concept of exhibition will be unique not only in
Serbia and the Balkans, not only in southeastern Europe and Europe, but in
the world."
The media promoted the national pride of population: "The success of
the Belgrade exhibition far overreached the borders of Serbia and gained
a deserved acknowledgment in the media of whole Europe." The main pride
of the organizers was the unique appearance in Europe during the war, of
the anti-Jewish postage stamps with disgusting racist drawings, which had
the goal, according to wishes of Serbian antisemites, "over the whole
globe through all times to serve as the most convincing proof of how one
nation in face of a danger of its extinction, woke up."
Milan Nedic expressed "full gratitude to the organizers and believes that
the exhibition will have a great educational effect, because it obviously
showed in a systematic manner the work of the enemy of the state and
nation."
A lot of time has passed since the described events in Serbia, but
antisemitism in Serbia is not dying out just like a vampire. The Serbian
diocese in West Germany published in that country in 1985, a book in
Serbian with the Serbian cyrillic letters, by the then deceased bishop
Nikolaj Velimirovic, which was supposedly written in 1945 in the
concentration camp of Dachau, that being totally untrue - but that
represents another subject. The book is full of preachings to the Serbian
Orthodox people that go like this: "Europe is today the main battleground
of the Jews and the father of the Jewish devil. This Europe doesn't know
and in this is the dark tragedy of her nations. Europeans, christened and
baptized in peace, totally surrendered to the Jews, they think with Jewish
head, they receive Jewish programs, they accept Jewish lies as truth, they
walk on a Jewish path and they serve Jewish goals." There was no reaction
from any side. And in 1991, the Serbian Orthodox church organized a
spectacular return to Serbia of the bones of this ideologist of
antisemitism. The newspaper of the Serbian Orthodox church "Pravoslavlje"
(Orthodoxy) published on January 1992 an article from its correspondent
from Israel "Jews are crucifying Jesus" with claims like this: "Many
Israelis are sick with hate against Christians. Among ordinary people this
hate is open. The politicians are sneaky, they work concealed," etc.
etc...After two weeks the Holy Synod stated that the text "appeared
antisemitic, things are easily reported" but at the same time claimed:
"The phenomenon of antisemitism and anti-Jewishness is totally foreign to
the tradition and history of the Serbian Orthodox church." In February
1992, Belgrade's "Borba" reported that "at the entrance to the
Jewish cemetery appeared a sign 'Death to Jews' and 'Jewish c....', but
the incident was concealed." The newsagency "Tanjug" reported after
several days that "the Jewish lobby arranged the diplomatic recognition of
Croatia and Slovenia by Russia." One on the Seselj's dukes stated in
Subotica that all property of Jews (and Croats) should be confiscated. In
August 1993, the president of the Jewish community in Belgrade, made a
comment about the relations with the Serbian Orthodox church that she
"still preaches deicide and is still nitted with antisemitism." Two months
ago it was reported in an Israeli newspaper that "one member of the
Serbian parliament accused the Jews of stabbing Serbia in the back with a
knife."
It seems that a newspaperman from "Borba" was right when he concluded his
article with the following words: "The deceptions by propaganda about the
lack of antisemitism in Serbia do not line up with reality: Antisemitism
has always existed in Serbia."
Yes, history is not repeating itself in Serbia, history continues with its
unbroken continuity...
The same as the statements from some Serbian intellectuals that only
"propagandistic lies claim that Serbs liquidated Jews during the Second
World War and that there was before the war and still today antisemitism
in Serbia!" The above is stated by Serb Dr. Ljubo Tadic, professor on the
Faculty of Philosophy in Belgrade, and by professor Dr. Andrija Gamsa of
the Faculty of Law, who is saddly - a Serbian Jew.
sssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss
Dr. Phlegming
Sonnyboy McTavish wrote in message <34de6a8f....@news.phoenix.net>...
>On Sun, 08 Feb 1998 13:37:25 GMT, madd...@connexus.apana.org.au
>(David S. Maddison) wrote:
>
>>In article <34db3b88...@news.smart1.net> Fri, 06 Feb 1998
>>16:35:06 GMT doc_t...@nonspam.bigfoot.com (Doc Tavish) wrote:
>>
>>[..]
>
>I've notoced that you cut out the text entirely! Are you afraid to
>have your obvious simplistic name calling, insults, and muddying the
>water stand as answers to the (deleted by you) text that you are
>commenting on?
Our "Stay in School Poster Boy" Scottie Bradbury still hasn't learned how to
use Deja Vu or how to look up a thread. Instead, he would rather everyone
repost his excrement over and over. OK Scottie, we'll try that, shall we?
>
>Here is what David deleted and I want David to answer it:
>
>http://www.kashrus.org/kosher/supervis.html
>
>[ ... ]
>
>.... Wine, more than any other food or drink, represents the holiness
>and separateness of the Jewish people.
>
> It is used for the sanctification of Shabbat and Yom Tovand at Jewish
>simchot. In the Beit Hamikdash wine was poured upon the Altar together
>with the sacrifice. However, since wine was and still is used in many
>forms of idolatrous worship, it has a unique status in Jewish Law,
>which places extra restrictions on the making and handling of wine.
>This includes wine used for non ceremonial purposes.
>
>The production and handling of kosher wine must be done exclusively by
>Jews. Wine, grape juice, and all products containing wine or grape
>juice must remain solely in Jewish hands during the manufacturing
>process and also after the seal of the bottle has been opened.
>
> We are not allowed to drink any wine or grape juice, or any drink
>containing wine or grape juice, which has been touched by a non Jew
>after the seal of the bottle has been opened.
>
>[ ... ]
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>All of the above applies to you if you are a Gentile! Click the link
>and verify for yourself the bigotry of Jewry. All of the above is
>their words NOT mine! I will keep posting this material from all the
>sources that I find it to wake you all up!
Nowhere do any of Scottie's postings support statements like the one above.
However, with the reasoning of a grade 6 gradeyate, Scottie is banging
square pegs into round holes. Stay in school kids.
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>Why are Jews allowed to speak such disparaging stuff towards the rest
>of humanity? If one group were to have such beliefs as these against
>another group there would be a moral outrage of major proportions!
Once again, none of what Scottie posts supports anything he concludes. The
plug in Scottie's head can't seem to find the socket!! Stay in school kids.
>I am making it a point to make material such as this known to Non-Jews
>so they can start looking for themselves. Believe me, I'll be posting
>a lot more of what Jews say!
Since Scottie hasn't done an honest day's work since he left grade six, he
would rather be our Poster Boy for staying in school. Thanks Scottie. All
of the material about reaching broadbased conclusions on simple, singular
examples was covered in grades you didn't make it into.
>
>> It would be like asking a chef to repair a car -
>>different experts are required for different jobs. The intention of
>>the laws of kashrut are simply to ensure that the right experts are
>>involved on the job.
>
>>Most Jews themselves, would not be acceptable as
>>kosher supervisors, BTW.
>
>But ALL Non-Jews would not be acceptable to even touch the wine as in
>this bigoted statement: " We are not allowed to drink any wine or
>grape juice, or any drink containing wine or grape juice, which has
>been touched by a non Jew after the seal of the bottle has been
>opened." There is no excuse for this bigotry! If the satement had
>said: " We whites are not allowed to drink any wine or grape juice, or
>any drink containing wine or grape juice, which has been touched by a
>black after the seal of the bottle has been opened." we would be
>called bigots KKK and every thing else! What if the statement had
>read, and it being another group; " We Germans are not allowed to
>drink any wine or grape juice, or any drink containing wine or grape
>juice, which has been touched by a Jew after the seal of the bottle
>has been opened." You would be calling that group Nazis! Stop the self
>denial on your part and try to rationallly answer the five questions
>that follow if you don't believe this web page is full of bigotry.
The only bigot involved in any of this is delusional, sixth grade dropout
Scottie Bradbury whose delusional sock puppets preach endless bigotry with
no rational link to anything he posts. Of course, Scottie, like his dead
cousin Davis probably is suffering from the late stages of Syphillis.
>
>>In any case, I'd hardly like my food to be supervised by an
>>anti-Semitic loser like you!
>
>Try to answer these five questions instead of making cheap shots
>which is the sign of an intellectually lazy mind.
>
>The questions are based on the text you purposely deleted.
>
>Make an excuse for:
>
>1) ".... Wine, more than any other food or drink, represents the
>holiness and separateness of the Jewish people." Aren't non-Jews holy
>or clean?
Not if they are idol worshippers.
>
>2) "The production and handling of kosher wine must be done
>exclusively by Jews. Wine, grape juice, and all products containing
>wine or grape juice must remain solely in Jewish hands during the
>manufacturing process and also after the seal of the bottle has been
>opened." Are non-Jews unclean? Is this why they can't touch the bottle
>of wine after the seal is broken?
The article said nothing about Non-Jews being unclean. Generalizations like
that are solely the product of your delusional mind Scottie.
>
>3) " We are not allowed to drink any wine or grape juice, or any drink
>containing wine or grape juice, which has been touched by a non Jew
>after the seal of the bottle has been opened." A repeat in general
>from above. Why aren't Jews allowed to drink if the seal has been
>broken and the wine is touched by a non-Jew?
Because Scottie, it isn't Kosher. But you couldn't be expected to
understand that being an almost grade six gradeyate.
>
>4) " Non commercial bread and cake that is completely baked by an
>individual non Jew is called pat akum and may not be eaten." I'm dying
>to hear you explain this bigotry too! Can you imagine the outrage by
>you if a web site had a something that said instead:
>"Non commercial bread and cake that is completely baked by an
>individual non-White is called pat akum and may not be eaten by a
>white." ? You'd be screaming racist bigot at the top of your lungs!
Once again Scottie the flying Wallenda takes the logic leap
and....ooops....forgot the net. No where in here does this disparage
Non-Jews. But only in Scottie's delusional mind, where only one track is
operational, and isn't plugged into any logical source of data.
>
>5) "Certain foods which were completely cooked by a non-Jew (disbud
>akum) may not be eaten, even if the foods are kosher and are cooked in
>kosher utensils." How about this? Care to explain?
See above o illegitimate one!
>
>Now stop with your anti-Semitism claim. It is the coward's way out!
Champion of all cowards Scottie Bradbury and his supporting cast of sock
puppets can call everyone else cowards all the way slinking in fear behind
his keyboards hoping nobody finds out who he really is.
>
>>David Maddison
>
>BTW try to show that the following isn't bigotry. If whites said this
>about blacks there would be howlings in the media for months and
>political careers would be on the rocks. Blacks have different diets
>than whites also! This article is not about black or white; it's about
>Jews AND the rest of mankind being compared! Get the sense of it!
>
>http://shemayisrael.co.il/dafyomi2/nidah/insites/ni-dt-34.htm
>
>THOUGHTS ON THE DAILY DAF
>
>brought to you by Kollel Iyun Hadaf of Har Nof
>Rosh Kollel: Rav Mordecai Kornfeld
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>Ask A Question about the Daf
>
>Nidah 34
>
>1.JEWISH PHYSIOLOGY The Gemara suggests that perhaps the Shichvas Zera
>of a non-Jew might have different properties from that of a Jew, since
>the non-Jews eat non-kosher foods and are physically affected by their
>diet. This has important ramifications.
>
>The CHASAM SOFER (Teshuvos YD 175) concludes that we cannot assume
>that a medical treatment that was tested successfully on a non-Jew
>will also be successful on a Jew. Therefore, if a Jewish woman always
>saw blood as a result of Tashmish, we cannot determine that a
>particular cure is reliable is reliable just because it was
>experimented successfully on non-Jews.
>
>...........................................................................
.............................................
>
>This article is provided as part of Shema Yisrael Torah Network
>Permission is granted to redistribute electronically or on paper,
>provided that this notice is included intact.
>For information on subscriptions, archives, and other Shema Yisrael
>Classes, send mail to d...@shemayisrael.co.il
>
>Shema Yisrael Torah Network
>ad...@shemayisrael.co.il
>http://www.shemayisrael.co.il
>Jerusalem, Israel
>972-2-532-4191
>
>In the U.S.:
>Tel. (908) 370-3344
>Fax. (908) 367-6608
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
>How many of you are still holding out that Jews still view non-Jews as
>human beings. The material above almost looks like animal
>experimentation to me!
In your delusional mind Scottie, I suppose you couldn't see it any other
way. But, thank you Posterboy. This latest diatribe repeated so kindly by
you goes a long way in reminding all kids out there to stay in school lest
you develop the same reehzuning power as Scottie, I never found an article I
couldn't somehow conclude as anti-Gentile if it was written by a Jew even if
it wasn't, Bradbury!!
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
>
>
>
Sonnyboy McTavish
>In article <34db3b88...@news.smart1.net> Fri, 06 Feb 1998
>16:35:06 GMT doc_t...@nonspam.bigfoot.com (Doc Tavish) wrote:
>
>[..]
I've notoced that you cut out the text entirely! Are you afraid to
have your obvious simplistic name calling, insults, and muddying the
water stand as answers to the (deleted by you) text that you are
commenting on?
Here is what David deleted and I want David to answer it:
http://www.kashrus.org/kosher/supervis.html
[ ... ]
.... Wine, more than any other food or drink, represents the holiness
and separateness of the Jewish people.
It is used for the sanctification of Shabbat and Yom Tovand at Jewish
simchot. In the Beit Hamikdash wine was poured upon the Altar together
with the sacrifice. However, since wine was and still is used in many
forms of idolatrous worship, it has a unique status in Jewish Law,
which places extra restrictions on the making and handling of wine.
This includes wine used for non ceremonial purposes.
The production and handling of kosher wine must be done exclusively by
Jews. Wine, grape juice, and all products containing wine or grape
juice must remain solely in Jewish hands during the manufacturing
process and also after the seal of the bottle has been opened.
We are not allowed to drink any wine or grape juice, or any drink
containing wine or grape juice, which has been touched by a non Jew
after the seal of the bottle has been opened.
[ ... ]
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
All of the above applies to you if you are a Gentile! Click the link
and verify for yourself the bigotry of Jewry. All of the above is
their words NOT mine! I will keep posting this material from all the
sources that I find it to wake you all up!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
[ ... ]
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> It would be like asking a chef to repair a car -
>different experts are required for different jobs. The intention of
>the laws of kashrut are simply to ensure that the right experts are
>involved on the job.
>Most Jews themselves, would not be acceptable as
>kosher supervisors, BTW.
But ALL Non-Jews would not be acceptable to even touch the wine as in
this bigoted statement: " We are not allowed to drink any wine or
grape juice, or any drink containing wine or grape juice, which has
been touched by a non Jew after the seal of the bottle has been
opened." There is no excuse for this bigotry! If the satement had
said: " We whites are not allowed to drink any wine or grape juice, or
any drink containing wine or grape juice, which has been touched by a
black after the seal of the bottle has been opened." we would be
called bigots KKK and every thing else! What if the statement had
read, and it being another group; " We Germans are not allowed to
drink any wine or grape juice, or any drink containing wine or grape
juice, which has been touched by a Jew after the seal of the bottle
has been opened." You would be calling that group Nazis! Stop the self
denial on your part and try to rationallly answer the five questions
that follow if you don't believe this web page is full of bigotry.
>In any case, I'd hardly like my food to be supervised by an
>anti-Semitic loser like you!
Try to answer these five questions instead of making cheap shots
which is the sign of an intellectually lazy mind.
The questions are based on the text you purposely deleted.
Make an excuse for:
1) ".... Wine, more than any other food or drink, represents the
holiness and separateness of the Jewish people." Aren't non-Jews holy
or clean?
2) "The production and handling of kosher wine must be done
exclusively by Jews. Wine, grape juice, and all products containing
wine or grape juice must remain solely in Jewish hands during the
manufacturing process and also after the seal of the bottle has been
opened." Are non-Jews unclean? Is this why they can't touch the bottle
of wine after the seal is broken?
3) " We are not allowed to drink any wine or grape juice, or any drink
containing wine or grape juice, which has been touched by a non Jew
after the seal of the bottle has been opened." A repeat in general
from above. Why aren't Jews allowed to drink if the seal has been
broken and the wine is touched by a non-Jew?
4) " Non commercial bread and cake that is completely baked by an
individual non Jew is called pat akum and may not be eaten." I'm dying
to hear you explain this bigotry too! Can you imagine the outrage by
you if a web site had a something that said instead:
"Non commercial bread and cake that is completely baked by an
individual non-White is called pat akum and may not be eaten by a
white." ? You'd be screaming racist bigot at the top of your lungs!
5) "Certain foods which were completely cooked by a non-Jew (disbud
akum) may not be eaten, even if the foods are kosher and are cooked in
kosher utensils." How about this? Care to explain?
Now stop with your anti-Semitism claim. It is the coward's way out!
>David Maddison
http://shemayisrael.co.il/dafyomi2/nidah/insites/ni-dt-34.htm
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Nidah 34
........................................................................................................................
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
mad...@uscom.com
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gra...@daveney.matra.com.au (Graham Daveney) wrote:
>Doc Tavish (doc_t...@nonspam.bigfoot.com) wrote:
>: On Fri, 06 Feb 1998 09:57:30 -0500, jrb...@earthlink.net (Jeffrey
>G.
>: Brown)
>:
>: Jeffrey G. Brown, who can only still make up childish subject
>titles
>: such as: "Poor ol' gutless Scottie flaunts his confusion" refuses
>to
>: face the reality that Jews are, indeed, religious and racial
>bigots.
>
>There is no such thing as the Jewish race.
>
>Are you going to tell all the people that converted to Judaism and
>became
>Jews that they changed their race as well as their religion when
>they became
>a Jew ?
>
>You seem to have read widley regarding Judaism, but unfortunately
>you havent
>read any of the works on "Conversion to Judaism".
>
>
Susan Cohen
DR.MEOFF wrote:
> > Just one of many races in the world.
Please answer the question. Let me elaborate - perhaps it will be easier for
you. Since descendents of Europeans, Asians, Africans & Arabs can be Jewish,
how does it make us a race? Since you can't inherit Judiasm from your
father, how can we be a race? Since you can't be ha;f Jewish the way some
people are, say, half-Irish, how can it be a race? Since I don't look like
an Ethiopian or Sabra Israeli, how can we be a race?
Susan Cohen
Even if non-Jews aren't allowed to come into contact with our sacramental wine - which, I believe, is absolutely no
different than Xtians being very careful with their communion wafres - it certainly isn't racism. We let anyone of
any race into our "club". Do you?
(Oh, & if it bothers you that much, do like Graham Devaney suggests: convert, & touch all the wine you want!)
Susan Cohen
Joseph Hertzlinger wrote:
> In <34e0f380...@news.thegrid.net> natio...@juno.com (Michael )
> writes:
> >
> >On 7 Feb 1998 23:40:17 +1100, gra...@daveney.matra.com.au (Graham
> Daveney) wrote:
>
> >>Are you going to tell all the people that converted to Judaism and
> >>became Jews that they changed their race as well as their religion
> >>when they became a Jew ?
> >
> >I would call them what jews call them behind their back: "stupid goy".
>
> No. We call _you_ "stupid goy."
True. If it weren't, how would that count for so many Jewish parents having
tried to get me to marry one of their sons?
> >>You seem to have read widley regarding Judaism, but unfortunately you
> >>havent read any of the works on "Conversion to Judaism".
> >
> >Well there are jews and *real* jews. Ya know?
Yes, we do know - they are one & the same.
> He probably does know more than you.
Oh, who doesn't!?
Susan Cohen
Jeffrey G. Brown wrote:
> In article <34db2b43...@news.smart1.net>, Scott "I didn't understand
> it the first twenty times I posted it, so I guess I'll show off my
> ignorance again" Bradbury (doc_t...@bigfoot.com, phi...@phoenix.net)
> wrote:
>
> > Notice:
> > "4.From the time the grapes arrive at the winery, only Sabbath
> > observant Jews are allowed to work on the production of the wines, or
> > touch the wine making equipment."
> >
> > In other words Gentiles are not allowed!
>
> Yup. But the careful observer will note that poor ol' gutless Scottie
> doesn't have a clue as to why that is -- and, in fact, regularly and
> deliberately lies about the reason.
And you'll notice that Bradbury carefully ignores the fact that some JEWS
aren't allowed to touch the wine, either! Or, from his own post:
"only Sabbath
> observant Jews are allowed to work on the production of the wines,..."
Doc Tavish
On Mon, 09 Feb 1998 01:23:44 -0500, Susan Cohen <ze...@smart.net>
wrote:
>Jeffrey G. Brown wrote:
>
>> In article <34db2b43...@news.smart1.net>, Scott "I didn't understand
>> it the first twenty times I posted it, so I guess I'll show off my
>> ignorance again" Bradbury (doc_t...@bigfoot.com, phi...@phoenix.net)
>> wrote:
>> > Notice:
>> > "4.From the time the grapes arrive at the winery, only Sabbath
>> > observant Jews are allowed to work on the production of the wines, or
>> > touch the wine making equipment."
>> >
>> > In other words Gentiles are not allowed!
>> Yup. But the careful observer will note that poor ol' gutless Scottie
>> doesn't have a clue as to why that is -- and, in fact, regularly and
>> deliberately lies about the reason.
Yup and as any careful observer that knows Jeffrey G. Brown knows that
he chops up texts and then comments on his version.
Never mind. I have another example of bigotry below in full text. It
says among other things:
"The production and handling of kosher wine must be done exclusively
by Jews. Wine, grape juice, and all products containing wine or grape
juice must remain solely in Jewish hands during the manufacturing
process and also after the seal of the bottle has been opened."
AND
"We are not allowed to drink any wine or grape juice, or any drink
containing wine or grape juice, which has been touched by a non Jew
after the seal of the bottle has been opened."
Sounds extremely bigoted to me!
>And you'll notice that Bradbury carefully ignores the fact that some JEWS
>aren't allowed to touch the wine, either! Or, from his own post:
>
>"only Sabbath
>> observant Jews are allowed to work on the production of the wines,..."
And you, Susie Q, completely ignore that not a single Non-Jew may
touch the wine at all. Not one! Understand, not one, but most Jews are
able to touch the wine! Understand now!?
Try dealing with this Susan if you can:
http://www.kashrus.org/kosher/supervis.html
[ ... ]
.... Wine, more than any other food or drink, represents the holiness
and separateness of the Jewish people.
It is used for the sanctification of Shabbat and Yom Tovand at Jewish
simchot. In the Beit Hamikdash wine was poured upon the Altar together
with the sacrifice. However, since wine was and still is used in many
forms of idolatrous worship, it has a unique status in Jewish Law,
which places extra restrictions on the making and handling of wine.
This includes wine used for non ceremonial purposes.
The production and handling of kosher wine must be done exclusively by
Jews. Wine, grape juice, and all products containing wine or grape
juice must remain solely in Jewish hands during the manufacturing
process and also after the seal of the bottle has been opened.
We are not allowed to drink any wine or grape juice, or any drink
containing wine or grape juice, which has been touched by a non Jew
after the seal of the bottle has been opened.
[ ... ]
Grape Ingredients In Processed Foods: All liquids produced from fresh
[ ... ]
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Now make excuses for:
1) ".... Wine, more than any other food or drink, represents the
holiness and separateness of the Jewish people."
Aren't non-Jews holy or clean?
2) "The production and handling of kosher wine must be done
exclusively by Jews. Wine, grape juice, and all products containing
wine or grape juice must remain solely in Jewish hands during the
manufacturing process and also after the seal of the bottle has been
opened."
Are non-Jews unclean? Is this why they can't touch the bottle of wine
after the seal is broken?
3) "We are not allowed to drink any wine or grape juice, or any drink
containing wine or grape juice, which has been touched by a non Jew
after the seal of the bottle has been opened."
A repeat in general from above. Why aren't Jews allowed to drink if
the seal has been broken and the wine is touched by a non-Jew?
4) " Non commercial bread and cake that is completely baked by an
individual non-Jew is called pat akum and may not be eaten."
I'm dying to hear you explain this bigotry too! Can you imagine the
outrage by you if a web site had a something that said instead:
"Non commercial bread and cake that is completely baked by an
individual non-White is called pat akum and may not be eaten by a
white." ? You'd be screaming racist bigot at the top of your lungs!
5) "Certain foods which were completely cooked by a non-Jew (disbud
akum) may not be eaten, even if the foods are kosher and are cooked in
kosher utensils."
How about this? Care to explain?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Here is one for laughs. Care to explain the bigoty and ignorance this
is based on?
http://shemayisrael.co.il/dafyomi2/nidah/insites/ni-dt-34.htm
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Nidah 34
........................................................................................................................
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
How many of you (Non-Jews) are still holding out that Jews still view
non-Jews as human beings. The material above almost looks like animal
experimentation to me!
How many of you totally clueless Jews still have yet to figure why the
majority of mankind has so thoroughly disliked you for thousands of
years?
Doc Tavish
BTW I have one more and this one is even funnier than the one above!
I give my word and have provided the link so you may verify that I
ahave not altered this post in any way except for my bracketed
comment. Here goes:
http://www.shamash.org/listarchives/mail-jewish/volume1/e-a/m.j902
"..... sterilize male animals. In any case there is no prohibition in
buying a vasectomized mouse owned by a non-Jew.
The problem of vasectomizing unclean animals comes up more
commonly when one wants to spay their cat or dog. A Jewish
veterinarian cannot sterilize a male animal and one cannot ask a
non-Jew to sterilize their dog or cat. One can buy a previously
sterilized male animal. In fact a question they asked Ben Zoma is if
one can damage the male generative organs of a dog and he replied that
even that is forbidden (Chaggigah 14b).
Another case of damaging the reproductive organs of male animals
is the sterilization of insects like fruit flies by radiation. These
sterile males are released into the infested area and mate with
females, competing with the normal male fruit flies. A case like this
is discussed in the halachic literature. It is prohibited to hold
someone in the snow until he becomes sterile, although one is not
whipped as a punishment for doing so.
[I love the way this guy compares human beings to fruit flies! It's a
riot and he is a "university scholar" too! Doc Tavish]
In this case the generative organs are not directly injured, but it
is nevertheless prohibited. In addition the taking of a sterilizing
drug is prohibited even though the sterilization is not done directly
by cutting or damaging any organs or even if the sterilization is not
the desired effect but a cure of a disease is.
The halachic discussions of this prohibition are found in the
Shulchan Aruch Even HaEzer 5:11-14 and in mitzvah 291 of Sefer Ha
Chinuch.
Daniel Schindler <LIDANIEL%WEIZMAN...@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Doc Tavish
On Mon, 09 Feb 1998 00:14:02 -0500, Susan Cohen <ze...@smart.net>
wrote:
>Even if non-Jews aren't allowed to come into contact with our
>sacramental wine - which, I believe, is absolutely no
>different than Xtians being very careful with their communion
>wafres - it certainly isn't racism. We let anyone of
>any race into our "club". Do you?
You don't let Non-Jews touch your wine products PERIOD. This has
nothing to do with their religion or the lack thereof- it has to do
with them being Gentile and nothing more! This is racial and religious
bigotry! (I have provided proof about the wine below.)
>(Oh, & if it bothers you that much, do like Graham Devaney
>suggests: convert, & touch all the wine you want!)
The funny thing about you Jews is you are like rats that have more
than one hole to scurry to when confronted. It all depends on what is
being discussed. Now you are hiding behind your religion as a defense
and possibly in another post or two you'll be hiding behind your race!
Proof on wine:
"The production and handling of kosher wine must be done exclusively
by Jews. Wine, grape juice, and all products containing wine or grape
juice must remain solely in Jewish hands during the manufacturing
process and also after the seal of the bottle has been opened."
AND
"We are not allowed to drink any wine or grape juice, or any drink
containing wine or grape juice, which has been touched by a non-Jew
after the seal of the bottle has been opened."
http://www.kashrus.org/kosher/supervis.html
[ ... ]
.... Wine, more than any other food or drink, represents the holiness
and separateness of the Jewish people.
It is used for the sanctification of Shabbat and Yom Tovand at Jewish
simchot. In the Beit Hamikdash wine was poured upon the Altar together
with the sacrifice. However, since wine was and still is used in many
forms of idolatrous worship, it has a unique status in Jewish Law,
which places extra restrictions on the making and handling of wine.
This includes wine used for non ceremonial purposes.
The production and handling of kosher wine must be done exclusively by
Jews. Wine, grape juice, and all products containing wine or grape
juice must remain solely in Jewish hands during the manufacturing
process and also after the seal of the bottle has been opened.
We are not allowed to drink any wine or grape juice, or any drink
containing wine or grape juice, which has been touched by a non Jew
after the seal of the bottle has been opened.
[ ... ]
Grape Ingredients In Processed Foods: All liquids produced from fresh
[ ... ]
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Now make excuses for:
1) ".... Wine, more than any other food or drink, represents the
holiness and separateness of the Jewish people."
Aren't non-Jews holy or clean?
2) "The production and handling of kosher wine must be done
exclusively by Jews. Wine, grape juice, and all products containing
wine or grape juice must remain solely in Jewish hands during the
manufacturing process and also after the seal of the bottle has been
opened."
Are non-Jews unclean? Is this why they can't touch the bottle of wine
after the seal is broken?
3) "We are not allowed to drink any wine or grape juice, or any drink
containing wine or grape juice, which has been touched by a non Jew
after the seal of the bottle has been opened."
A repeat in general from above. Why aren't Jews allowed to drink if
the seal has been broken and the wine is touched by a non-Jew?
4) " Non commercial bread and cake that is completely baked by an
individual non-Jew is called pat akum and may not be eaten."
I'm dying to hear you explain this bigotry too! Can you imagine the
outrage by you if a web site had a something that said instead:
"Non commercial bread and cake that is completely baked by an
individual non-White is called pat akum and may not be eaten by a
white." ? You'd be screaming racist bigot at the top of your lungs!
5) "Certain foods which were completely cooked by a non-Jew (disbud
akum) may not be eaten, even if the foods are kosher and are cooked in
kosher utensils."
How about this? Care to explain?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Michael
On Mon, 09 Feb 1998 00:18:17 -0500, jewess hysteric Susan Cohen <ze...@smart.net>
having another fit, ranted:
>Joseph Hertzlinger wrote:
>> In <34e0f380...@news.thegrid.net> natio...@juno.com (Michael )
>> writes:
>> >On 7 Feb 1998 23:40:17 +1100, gra...@daveney.matra.com.au (Graham
>> Daveney) wrote:
>> >>Are you going to tell all the people that converted to Judaism and
>> >>became Jews that they changed their race as well as their religion
>> >>when they became a Jew ?
>> >I would call them what jews call them behind their back: "stupid goy".
>> No. We call _you_ "stupid goy."
>True. If it weren't, how would that count for so many Jewish parents having
>tried to get me to marry one of their sons?
Simple. Insanity!
>> >>You seem to have read widley regarding Judaism, but unfortunately you
>> >>havent read any of the works on "Conversion to Judaism".
>> >Well there are jews and *real* jews. Ya know?
(Cohen-bot tries to sell another of its oxymorons):
>Yes, we do know - they are one & the same.
Tell it to "converted" jews and atheist jews!
>> He probably does know more than you.
>Oh, who doesn't!?
she said while standing on one foot.
ROTFLOL!!!!!
Joseph Hertzlinger
In <34e0adac...@news.thegrid.net> natio...@juno.com (Michael )
writes:
>ROTFLOL!!!!!
Interesting technique: Post something unfunny and then add
"ROTFLOL!!!!!"
Joseph Hertzlinger
In <34dfad6a....@news.phoenix.net> doc_t...@nonspam.bigfoot.com
(Doc Tavish) writes:
>You don't let Non-Jews touch your wine products PERIOD. This has
>nothing to do with their religion or the lack thereof- it has to do
>with them being Gentile and nothing more! This is racial and religious
>bigotry! (I have provided proof about the wine below.)
We let converts touch wine.
mad...@uscom.com
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gra...@daveney.matra.com.au (Graham Daveney) wrote:
>Doc Tavish (doc_t...@nonspam.bigfoot.com) wrote:
>: On Fri, 06 Feb 1998 09:57:30 -0500, jrb...@earthlink.net (Jeffrey
>G.
>: Brown)
>:
>: Jeffrey G. Brown, who can only still make up childish subject
>titles
>: such as: "Poor ol' gutless Scottie flaunts his confusion" refuses
>to
>: face the reality that Jews are, indeed, religious and racial
>bigots.
>
>There is no such thing as the Jewish race.
>
>Are you going to tell all the people that converted to Judaism and
>became
>Jews that they changed their race as well as their religion when
>they became
>a Jew ?
>
>You seem to have read widley regarding Judaism, but unfortunately
>you havent
>read any of the works on "Conversion to Judaism".
>
>
Susan Cohen
DR.MEOFF wrote:
> >>> Any one can be converted to Judaism but they continue to be the race
> they were. They might practice the j*wish religion but they are still black
> white or what-ever. Now a j*w in race is a person with J*ws for parents. You
> know the type like shown on CNN, in Israel arm to the teeth ready to kill
> arabs. If j*ws are not a race, then Hilter was trying to get rid of a
> certain religion and not the j*wish race. Which means a j*w not active in
> Judaism would be safe from harm.
You're an idiot, you know that?
> Sounds kinda like what doc Tavish says. So
> history is a lie. Hitler could'nt have tried to kill a race thats "Not a
> race".
Oh, I see: Hitler was a lunatic, & had horrendously stupid ideas, therefore he
was right? What *are* you on?
Craig Winchell
Doc Tavish <doc_t...@nonspam.bigfoot.com> wrote in article
<34db392b...@news.smart1.net>...
>
> http://www.carmelwines.com/fs_kashrut.html
>
> Jewish dietary laws ensuring hygiene and purity are know as "Kashrut"
> (purity).
> Wine is used within Jewish religious ceremonies and blessings are made
> over it, thus, the purity of the wine may not be in doubt - the wine
> must be "Kosher".
> This is achieved by following the regulations of Kashrut:
>
> Wine produced in the Land of Israel is accepted as Kosher as long as
> the following regulations are strictly observed:
>
> 1.In the first three years after a vine is planted, its flower buds
> must be removed to prevent the formation of fruit ( a process known as
> "Orlah"). Only grapes from the fourth year onwards may be used for
> wine making.
B"H
This is also true of wine made anywhere in the world. Orlah still is a
concern.
Craig Winchell
>
> 2.Vegetables or other crops may not be grown between the vines or rows
> of vines.
This is also true outside of The Land.
Craig Winchell
>
> 3.During the seventh or "Shmitta" year, the fields must be left
> fallow. The very strictly observant will not purchase any agricultural
> product grown in the Land of Israel during the 7th. year, although
> this regulation is often circumvented by the nominal selling of the
> land during the 7th. year to non-Jews.
>
> 4.From the time the grapes arrive at the winery, only Sabbath
> observant Jews are allowed to work on the production of the wines, or
> touch the wine making equipment.
NonJews cannot manipulate the wine. They *can* touch winemaking equipment
as long as they don't move the wine. These things are true of wine made
both inside and outside of The Land.
Craig Winchell
>
> 5.All substances used in the production of the wines, such as fining
> agents and filtering materials, must be certified as Kosher and be
> free of any animal derivatives whatsoever.
This, of course, is always true, wherever kosher wine is made.
Craig Winchell
>
> 6.The wine must be "Mevushal" to ensure that even if a non observant
> Jew were to touch it whilst pouring, the wine would remain Kosher.
> Today "Mevushal" is achieved by the procedure of flash pasteurisation.
The wine need not be mevushal. Plenty of nonmevushal wines are produced
which are just as kosher in the bottle as mevushal wines. However, they
may lose their kosher status if handled by someone other than an observant
Jew. However, there have been plenty of teshuvas which come to the
conclusion that a nonobservant Jew does not make his own wine nonkosher
with respect to his own use.
Craig Winchell
>
> 7.The ceremony of "Maasar" is performed in which about 1% of the wine
> is poured away, symbolising the tithe paid to the High Priests in the
> time of the first and second Temples.
>
> Carmel has its own Kashrut supervisor, Rabbi Avraham Yeshayahu
> Yanovsky, who ensures that all the requirements are strictly adhered
> to. His signature on the back label of the wines, together with the
> stamps of approval of the Israeli Rabbinate, the American OU and Hug
> Hatam Sofer guarantees that Carmel products meet the highest
> standards, known as Kosher Lemehadrin and are Kosher for Passover and
> all the year round.
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Allan Matthews
Actually, folks like "Sieg Heil" Scottie and DR.MEOFF are hardly the
stupidest bigots to grace this NG, Susan. I take it you've never seen
Matt Giwer or Les Griswold (who's since changed his tune) in action.
allan
--
************************************
allan_m...@bigfoot.com
************************************
"Jam it up your ass,"
- Booby Whitaker showing his
master debater skills
************************************
http://www.shore2.net/~matthews/
************************************
Doc Tavish
>Actually, folks like "Sieg Heil" Scottie and DR.MEOFF are hardly the
>stupidest bigots to grace this NG, Susan. I take it you've never seen
>Gregory Taylor or Jeffrey G. Brown in action?
Now you have "said" something that I can agree with Allan! :-)
BTW Allan can you help me with dealing with this bigotry I've found
seeing how you are the expert? BTW I am going to post your reply to
other news groups as well along with this post if you do any chopping
it up. Then the people will see an object lesson.
Here it is:
"We are not allowed to drink any wine or grape juice, or any drink
containing wine or grape juice, which has been touched by a non-Jew
after the seal of the bottle has been opened."
What if the above had instead said:
Example 1:
[A White Association speaking]
"We are not allowed to drink any wine or grape juice, or any drink
containing wine or grape juice, which has been touched by a non-white
after the seal of the bottle has been opened."
Would this be bigoted? If so then why isn't the original bigoted?
Example 2:
[A German Social club speaking]
"We are not allowed to drink any wine or grape juice, or any drink
containing wine or grape juice, which has been touched by a Jew after
the seal of the bottle has been opened."
Would this be bigoted? Would you call this group a Neo-Nazi group?
If it is bigoted then why isn't the original?
Example three:
[An all men's club speaking]
"We are not allowed to drink any wine or grape juice, or any drink
containing wine or grape juice, which has been touched by a woman
after the seal of the bottle has been opened."
Would this be bigoted? If so then why isn't the original so?
Read the whole article below and see if you can make excuses for the
five statements that are embedded in the article Allan. Do something
that requires thinking and resoning- in other words name calling and
smears are out! Give it a try!
http://www.kashrus.org/kosher/supervis.html
[ ... ]
[ ... ]
[ ... ]
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Now make excuses for:
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
Michael
On Tue, 10 Feb 1998 13:46:54 -0500, allan_m...@bigmouth.com (Allan Matthews) the
Hen Master clucked:
>Actually, folks like "Sieg Heil" Scottie and DR.MEOFF are hardly the
>stupidest bigots to grace this NG, Susan. I take it you've never seen
>Matt Giwer or Les Griswold (who's since changed his tune) in action.
"Stupidest"???
<sig tortured>
Michael
On 10 Feb 1998 04:38:56 GMT, jher...@ix.netcom.com(Joseph Hertzlinger) clueless
nevertheless babbled:
>>ROTFLOL!!!!!
Ever consider that it might be directed at the person posting??
Wow!!
ROTFLOL!!!!!
Susan Cohen
All this self-righteous twaddle over one arcane law which doesn't
inconvenience anyone from a group of "people" who think everyone but they
are better off dead.
Boggles the mind.
Doc Tavish wrote:
> http://www.kashrus.org/kosher/supervis.html
>
> [ ... ]
>
> .... Wine, more than any other food or drink, represents the holiness
> and separateness of the Jewish people.
>
> It is used for the sanctification of Shabbat and Yom Tovand at Jewish
> simchot. In the Beit Hamikdash wine was poured upon the Altar together
> with the sacrifice. However, since wine was and still is used in many
> forms of idolatrous worship, it has a unique status in Jewish Law,
> which places extra restrictions on the making and handling of wine.
> This includes wine used for non ceremonial purposes.
>
> The production and handling of kosher wine must be done exclusively by
> Jews. Wine, grape juice, and all products containing wine or grape
> juice must remain solely in Jewish hands during the manufacturing
> process and also after the seal of the bottle has been opened.
>
> We are not allowed to drink any wine or grape juice, or any drink
> containing wine or grape juice, which has been touched by a non Jew
> after the seal of the bottle has been opened.
>
> [ ... ]
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> All of the above applies to you if you are a Gentile! Click the link
> and verify for yourself the bigotry of Jewry. All of the above is
> their words NOT mine! I will keep posting this material from all the
> sources that I find it to wake you all up!
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> More bigotry from the same web page:
>
Susan Cohen
Michael wrote:
> On 7 Feb 1998 23:40:17 +1100, gra...@daveney.matra.com.au (Graham Daveney) wrote:
>
> >There is no such thing as the Jewish race.
> Of course there is. Don't be silly.
Considering you can only be Jewish if your mother is Jewish, that there are Chinese
Jews, Ethiopian Jews, etc., this is arguably one of the dumbest things I've ever seen
you post.
> >Are you going to tell all the people that converted to Judaism and became
> >Jews that they changed their race as well as their religion when they became
> >a Jew ?
>
> I would call them what jews call them behind their back: "stupid goy".
Pardon me - this is.
I guess this would explain why all those Jewish parents wanted a convert like me -
daughter of an ex-nun - to marry their sons...?
> >You seem to have read widley regarding Judaism, but unfortunately you havent
> >read any of the works on "Conversion to Judaism".
>
> Well there are jews and *real* jews. Ya know?
He does - you don't.
Susan Cohen
Doc Tavish wrote:
> On Tue, 10 Feb 1998 13:46:54 -0500, allan_m...@bigfoot.com (Allan
> Matthews) wrote:
>
> >Actually, folks like "Sieg Heil" Scottie and DR.MEOFF are hardly the
> >stupidest bigots to grace this NG, Susan. I take it you've never seen
> >Gregory Taylor or Jeffrey G. Brown in action?
>
> Now you have "said" something that I can agree with Allan! :-)
>
> BTW Allan can you help me with dealing with this bigotry I've found
> seeing how you are the expert? BTW I am going to post your reply to
> other news groups as well along with this post if you do any chopping
> it up. Then the people will see an object lesson.
Oh, please - please do the same with my answer!!!
>
>
> Here it is:
>
> "We are not allowed to drink any wine or grape juice, or any drink
> containing wine or grape juice, which has been touched by a non-Jew
> after the seal of the bottle has been opened."
Or a non-Sabbath observant Jew.
> What if the above had instead said:
>
> Example 1:
> [A White Association speaking]
> "We are not allowed to drink any wine or grape juice, or any drink
> containing wine or grape juice, which has been touched by a non-white
> after the seal of the bottle has been opened."
>
> Would this be bigoted?
Of course, because anyone can become a Jew. No one can become "white".
> If so then why isn't the original bigoted?
Because anyone can become a Jew. No one can become "white".
> Example 2:
> [A German Social club speaking]
> "We are not allowed to drink any wine or grape juice, or any drink
> containing wine or grape juice, which has been touched by a Jew after
> the seal of the bottle has been opened."
>
> Would this be bigoted?
It depends. Do you have a religious reason for it?
> Would you call this group a Neo-Nazi group?
Depends. Are you?
> If it is bigoted then why isn't the original?
You haven't provided enough information (as usual).
> Example three:
> [An all men's club speaking]
> "We are not allowed to drink any wine or grape juice, or any drink
> containing wine or grape juice, which has been touched by a woman
> after the seal of the bottle has been opened."
>
> Would this be bigoted?
Most likely. You've already stated it was an all-male club. No one sets up
clubs to exclude others without being bigoted.
(& don't even think of applying what I just said to Jews: our membership is
open to anyone who wants to join.)
> If so then why isn't the original so?
Because anyone who wants to can become a Jew - a lot easier than changing
genders, I'm sure!
> Read the whole article below and see if you can make excuses for the
> five statements that are embedded in the article Allan. Do something
> that requires thinking and resoning- in other words name calling and
> smears are out! Give it a try!
>
> http://www.kashrus.org/kosher/supervis.html
>
> [ ... ]
>
> .... Wine, more than any other food or drink, represents the holiness
> and separateness of the Jewish people.
>
> It is used for the sanctification of Shabbat and Yom Tovand at Jewish
> simchot. In the Beit Hamikdash wine was poured upon the Altar together
> with the sacrifice. However, since wine was and still is used in many
> forms of idolatrous worship, it has a unique status in Jewish Law,
> which places extra restrictions on the making and handling of wine.
> This includes wine used for non ceremonial purposes.
So if yo uunderstand, what's your beef? Sheesh...
> The production and handling of kosher wine must be done exclusively by
> Jews. Wine, grape juice, and all products containing wine or grape
> juice must remain solely in Jewish hands during the manufacturing
> process and also after the seal of the bottle has been opened.
>
> We are not allowed to drink any wine or grape juice, or any drink
> containing wine or grape juice, which has been touched by a non Jew
> after the seal of the bottle has been opened.
Or a non-Sabbath observant Jew.
Why did you put the word "clean" in there? Paranoid? Guilty?
(Oh, & to answer your question, if not, they can be.)
> 2) "The production and handling of kosher wine must be done
> exclusively by Jews. Wine, grape juice, and all products containing
> wine or grape juice must remain solely in Jewish hands during the
> manufacturing process and also after the seal of the bottle has been
> opened."
>
> Are non-Jews unclean?
As unclean as lay Christians who aren't allowed to touch the communion
wafer.
> 3) "We are not allowed to drink any wine or grape juice, or any drink
> containing wine or grape juice, which has been touched by a non Jew
> after the seal of the bottle has been opened."
>
> A repeat in general from above. Why aren't Jews allowed to drink if
> the seal has been broken and the wine is touched by a non-Jew?
To build a fence around the Torah.
> 4) " Non commercial bread and cake that is completely baked by an
> individual non-Jew is called pat akum and may not be eaten."
>
> I'm dying to hear you explain this bigotry too! Can you imagine the
> outrage by you if a web site had a something that said instead:
> "Non commercial bread and cake that is completely baked by an
> individual non-White is called pat akum and may not be eaten by a
> white." ? You'd be screaming racist bigot at the top of your lungs!
Because anyone can become a Jew. No one can "become" a "white"
Also, you ignored your own quoted words about a reliable hechsher. The very
fact that you ask all these questions proves the law: people like you
absolutely could not guarantee a reliable hechsher.
> 5) "Certain foods which were completely cooked by a non-Jew (disbud
> akum) may not be eaten, even if the foods are kosher and are cooked in
> kosher utensils."
>
> How about this? Care to explain?
Again, you ignored your own quoted words about a reliable hechsher. The
very fact that you ask all these questions proves the law: people like you
absolutely could not guarantee a reliable hechsher.
And, as usual, this also refers to non-Sabbath observant Jews.
Are you going to say we're bigoted against Jews, now?
And you still haven't even pretended to justify your use of the term
"racism." There was no race at all mentioned in the kashrut strictures -
nor is there ever.
a...@creative.net
I just know I'll regret trying to explain this to the Ur-Putz below, however, I'll give
it a try....Kosher wine is just as sacred to Jews (observant ones) as the funny little
wafers called the host are to Catholics....you will find that Catholic doctrine and practice
forbid non-catholics from being in any way involved in the manufacture of said wafers...
it's that religion thing nitwit....
With Sincere Disregard,
Ali
Doc Tavish
On 12 Feb 1998 08:08:55 GMT, a...@creative.net wrote:
>
>I just know I'll regret trying to explain this to the Ur-Putz below,
Name calling and childish taunts will not win the argument. The xample
you give is for one religion. Jews are a religion/race. You have many
Jews who aren't religious at all- they are secular or humanist BUT
they still are Jews! You aren't secular if you are a Catholic.
Jews discriminate against the entire body of the rest of humanity
whether it's based on a religious stand or a racial stand.
>however, I'll give
>it a try....Kosher wine is just as sacred to Jews (observant ones) as the funny little
>wafers called the host are to Catholics....you will find that Catholic doctrine and practice
>forbid non-catholics from being in any way involved in the manufacture of said wafers...
>it's that religion thing nitwit....
Still using the insults heh?
Try to explain this bigotry from this website:
http://www.kashrus.org/kosher/supervis.html
Now make excuses for the statements made at the site:
1) ".... Wine, more than any other food or drink, represents the
holiness and separateness of the Jewish people."
Aren't non-Jews holy or clean?
2) "The production and handling of kosher wine must be done
exclusively by Jews. Wine, grape juice, and all products containing
wine or grape juice must remain solely in Jewish hands during the
manufacturing process and also after the seal of the bottle has been
opened."
Are non-Jews unclean? Is this why they can't touch the bottle of wine
after the seal is broken?
3) "We are not allowed to drink any wine or grape juice, or any drink
containing wine or grape juice, which has been touched by a non Jew
after the seal of the bottle has been opened."
A repeat in general from above. Why aren't Jews allowed to drink if
the seal has been broken and the wine is touched by a non-Jew?
4) " Non commercial bread and cake that is completely baked by an
individual non-Jew is called pat akum and may not be eaten."
I'm dying to hear you explain this bigotry too! Can you imagine the
outrage by you if a web site had a something that said instead:
"Non commercial bread and cake that is completely baked by an
individual non-White is called pat akum and may not be eaten by a
white." ? You'd be screaming racist bigot at the top of your lungs!
5) "Certain foods which were completely cooked by a non-Jew (disbud
akum) may not be eaten, even if the foods are kosher and are cooked in
kosher utensils."
How about this? Care to explain?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
http://shemayisrael.co.il/dafyomi2/nidah/insites/ni-dt-34.htm
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Nidah 34
........................................................................................................................
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Doc Tavish
> With Sincere Disregard,
Joseph Hertzlinger
In <34e36c94....@news.smart1.net> doc_t...@nonspam.bigfoot.com
(Doc Tavish) writes:
>Name calling and childish taunts will not win the argument. The xample
>you give is for one religion. Jews are a religion/race. You have many
>Jews who aren't religious at all- they are secular or humanist BUT
>they still are Jews! You aren't secular if you are a Catholic.
IIRC, once a Catholic, always a Catholic. Secular Catholics are
otherwise known as "lapsed Catholics" or, alternatively, as "damned."
Similarly, Moslems regard Salman Rushdie as a heretic whereas someone
with similar opinions who had never been Moslem would be ignored.
There are occasional discussions on soc.culture.jewish about whether a
child born from an egg from one woman and grew in the womb of another
woman would derive its status from which mother. I think the commonest
opinion is that it depends on the womb, whereas if Jews were a race it
would depend on the DNA.
Susan Cohen
Doc Tavish wrote:
> On 12 Feb 1998 08:08:55 GMT, a...@creative.net wrote:
>
> >
> >I just know I'll regret trying to explain this to the Ur-Putz below,
>
> Name calling and childish taunts will not win the argument.
Remind me to remind you of this when you need it.
> The xample
> you give is for one religion. Jews are a religion/race.
No, we're not. Of course, I know it suits your purposes to insist on it - however, all it does it make you appear ignorant
at beast, & stupid at worst (now, I didn't call you those names - I simply pointed out what such actions make you appear to
those who know the truth)
> You have many
> Jews who aren't religious at all- they are secular or humanist BUT
> they still are Jews! You aren't secular if you are a Catholic.
>
> Jews discriminate against the entire body of the rest of humanity
No, we don't. You'd like to think that we do. Which is funny, coming from one who truly does what he accuses others of
doing.
> whether it's based on a religious stand or a racial stand.
Well, considering that the race thing is your bag, this is not only incorrect, but hypocritical!
> >however, I'll give
> >it a try....Kosher wine is just as sacred to Jews (observant ones) as the funny little
> >wafers called the host are to Catholics....you will find that Catholic doctrine and practice
> >forbid non-catholics from being in any way involved in the manufacture of said wafers...
>
> >it's that religion thing nitwit....
>
> Still using the insults heh?
Still ignoring the the point, eh? Maybe that's why he called you one...?
> Try to explain this bigotry from this website:
>
> http://www.kashrus.org/kosher/supervis.html
>
> Now make excuses for the statements made at the site:
No, I won't make excuses. I'll *explain* it to you, in words as small as I can make them.
> 1) ".... Wine, more than any other food or drink, represents the
> holiness and separateness of the Jewish people."
>
> Aren't non-Jews holy or clean?
No more/less than non-Catholics to Catholics - but you don't see us yelling.
And the strictures apply to non-Sabbath observant Jews, as well
> 2) "The production and handling of kosher wine must be done
> exclusively by Jews. Wine, grape juice, and all products containing
> wine or grape juice must remain solely in Jewish hands during the
> manufacturing process and also after the seal of the bottle has been
> opened."
>
> Are non-Jews unclean? Is this why they can't touch the bottle of wine
> after the seal is broken?
No more/less than non-Catholics to Catholics - but you don't see us yelling. And the strictures apply to non-Sabbath
observant Jews, as well, which makes your cries of bigotry completely unfounded.
> 3) "We are not allowed to drink any wine or grape juice, or any drink
> containing wine or grape juice, which has been touched by a non Jew
> after the seal of the bottle has been opened."
>
> A repeat in general from above. Why aren't Jews allowed to drink if
> the seal has been broken and the wine is touched by a non-Jew?
Because of kashruth. And the strictures apply to non-Sabbath observant Jews, as well, which makes your cries of bigotry
completely unfounded.
> 4) " Non commercial bread and cake that is completely baked by an
> individual non-Jew is called pat akum and may not be eaten."
>
> I'm dying to hear you explain this bigotry too! Can you imagine the
> outrage by you if a web site had a something that said instead:
> "Non commercial bread and cake that is completely baked by an
> individual non-White is called pat akum and may not be eaten by a
> white." ? You'd be screaming racist bigot at the top of your lungs!
Because they aren't the same thing, & you know it. This is because it's more than likely that if a non-Jew - or a
non-Sabbath observant Jew - bakes the bread completely on their own, they'll do something incorrect which would make the
bread unkosher.
> 5) "Certain foods which were completely cooked by a non-Jew (disbud
> akum) may not be eaten, even if the foods are kosher and are cooked in
> kosher utensils."
>
> How about this? Care to explain?
See above - same exact law. Which also non-Sabbath observant Jews, which makes your cries of bigotry completely unfounded.
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> Here is one for laughs. Care to explain the bigoty and ignorance this
> is based on?
>
> http://shemayisrael.co.il/dafyomi2/nidah/insites/ni-dt-34.htm
>
> THOUGHTS ON THE DAILY DAF
>
> brought to you by Kollel Iyun Hadaf of Har Nof
> Rosh Kollel: Rav Mordecai Kornfeld
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Ask A Question about the Daf
>
> Nidah 34
>
> 1.JEWISH PHYSIOLOGY The Gemara suggests that perhaps the Shichvas Zera
> of a non-Jew might have different properties from that of a Jew, since
> the non-Jews eat non-kosher foods and are physically affected by their
> diet. This has important ramifications.
You know, modern science has come up with some of the same ideas because of the effects of non-kosher meat on the body.
>
>
> The CHASAM SOFER (Teshuvos YD 175) concludes that we cannot assume
> that a medical treatment that was tested successfully on a non-Jew
> will also be successful on a Jew. Therefore, if a Jewish woman always
> saw blood as a result of Tashmish, we cannot determine that a
> particular cure is reliable is reliable just because it was
> experimented successfully on non-Jews.
>
> ........................................................................................................................
>
> This article is provided as part of Shema Yisrael Torah Network
> Permission is granted to redistribute electronically or on paper,
> provided that this notice is included intact.
> For information on subscriptions, archives, and other Shema Yisrael
> Classes, send mail to d...@shemayisrael.co.il
>
>
>
> Shema Yisrael Torah Network
> ad...@shemayisrael.co.il
> http://www.shemayisrael.co.il
> Jerusalem, Israel
> 972-2-532-4191
>
> In the U.S.:
> Tel. (908) 370-3344
> Fax. (908) 367-6608
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> How many of you (Non-Jews) are still holding out that Jews still view
> non-Jews as human beings.
The ones with sense.
> The material above almost looks like animal
> experimentation to me!
Only someone with an agenda do make it seem so would read it that way. I thought it was farfetched, but some rabbis do like
to go to great lengths in defense of Torah.
Oh, & Jews who don't keep kosher would be viewd in the same light as non-Jews in the above passage. Just thought you'd like
to know! :-)
> How many of you totally clueless Jews still have yet to figure why the
> majority of mankind has so thoroughly disliked you for thousands of
> years?
We have long figured out that it's the totally clueless & the completely evil who do so. Which are you?
Graham Daveney
Doc Tavish (doc_t...@nonspam.bigfoot.com) wrote:
: On 12 Feb 1998 08:08:55 GMT, a...@creative.net wrote:
:
: >
: >I just know I'll regret trying to explain this to the Ur-Putz below,
:
: you give is for one religion. Jews are a religion/race.
Garbage.
Being Jewish is a religious identity.
The fact is that the Jewish religion still defines someone as Jewish even if
they have thrown away all aspects of Judaism.
eg: if a Jew converted to Catholocism and then became the Pope, he would still
be considered a Jew.
You are confusing the Christian's concept of a Christian with the Jew's concept
of a Jew.
You cannot compare the two.
: You have many
: Jews who aren't religious at all- they are secular or humanist BUT
: they still are Jews! You aren't secular if you are a Catholic.
You are wrong again.
A Jew is someone who is born of a Jewish mother, or who had a valid Orthodox
conversion. Period.
Their behaviour after the event that defined their Jewishness is irrelevant.
This is your mistake.
You are applying the Christian concept of Christian identity to the Jewish
religion. This is meaningless.
:
: Jews discriminate against the entire body of the rest of humanity
: whether it's based on a religious stand or a racial stand.
Meaningless.
Wine is an integral part of Jewish religious ceremonies.
Why don't you run down to your nearest Catholic Church and complain to the
Priest there that he is a racist because he will not let you take a confessional.
"But you are not a Catholic Priest", he would say.
"Racist ! Racist ! Racist" you yell.
You cannot touch the Jewish wine because you are not a Jew.
If you want to touch the Jewish wine so much, then why don't you get off your
backside and convert and become a Jew ?
Then you could even _make_ the wine from start to finish.
You could call it "Tavishes Kosher Wines".
:
: >however, I'll give
: >it a try....Kosher wine is just as sacred to Jews (observant ones) as the funny little
: >wafers called the host are to Catholics....you will find that Catholic doctrine and practice
: >forbid non-catholics from being in any way involved in the manufacture of said wafers...
:
: >it's that religion thing nitwit....
:
: Still using the insults heh?
:
: Try to explain this bigotry from this website:
There is no bigotry.
If you want to take part in Jewish religious ceremonies then I suggest you
convert to Judaism and become a Jew.
:
: http://www.kashrus.org/kosher/supervis.html
:
: Now make excuses for the statements made at the site:
:
: 1) ".... Wine, more than any other food or drink, represents the
: holiness and separateness of the Jewish people."
:
: Aren't non-Jews holy or clean?
Irrelevant.
Non-Jews arent Jews and that it why they cannot participate in certain Jewish
religious ceremonies.
You know, none of the non-Jews I have had over for Sabbath dinners have
complained about not being able to touch the wine.
Because they could touch the :
whiskey
the beer
the vodka
the khaluah
only wine is involved in Jewish religious ceremonies.
:
: 2) "The production and handling of kosher wine must be done
: exclusively by Jews. Wine, grape juice, and all products containing
: wine or grape juice must remain solely in Jewish hands during the
: manufacturing process and also after the seal of the bottle has been
: opened."
:
: Are non-Jews unclean? Is this why they can't touch the bottle of wine
: after the seal is broken?
No, because there is a fear that a non-Jew who worships idols could consecrate
the wine for idolatry.
:
: 3) "We are not allowed to drink any wine or grape juice, or any drink
: containing wine or grape juice, which has been touched by a non Jew
: after the seal of the bottle has been opened."
:
: A repeat in general from above. Why aren't Jews allowed to drink if
: the seal has been broken and the wine is touched by a non-Jew?
Because there is a fear that the non-Jew may consecrate the wine for the
worship of idols.
:
: 4) " Non commercial bread and cake that is completely baked by an
: individual non-Jew is called pat akum and may not be eaten."
:
: I'm dying to hear you explain this bigotry too! Can you imagine the
: outrage by you if a web site had a something that said instead:
: "Non commercial bread and cake that is completely baked by an
: individual non-White is called pat akum and may not be eaten by a
: white." ? You'd be screaming racist bigot at the top of your lungs!
Irrelevant.
Why don't you ask Catholics if non-Catholics can make the bread for communion.
:
: 5) "Certain foods which were completely cooked by a non-Jew (disbud
: akum) may not be eaten, even if the foods are kosher and are cooked in
: kosher utensils."
:
: How about this? Care to explain?
There is a fear that the non-Jew out of ignorance of the laws of Jewish
eating could have done something inadvertently to make the food non-Kosher.
Non-Jews being outside of the Jewish religion are not expected to know or care
about the intricacies of the Laws of Kashrut (Kosher).
:
: ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
:
: Here is one for laughs. Care to explain the bigoty and ignorance this
: is based on?
:
: http://shemayisrael.co.il/dafyomi2/nidah/insites/ni-dt-34.htm
:
: THOUGHTS ON THE DAILY DAF
:
: brought to you by Kollel Iyun Hadaf of Har Nof
: Rosh Kollel: Rav Mordecai Kornfeld
:
: ------------------------------------------------------------------------
:
: Ask A Question about the Daf
:
: Nidah 34
:
: 1.JEWISH PHYSIOLOGY The Gemara suggests that perhaps the Shichvas Zera
: of a non-Jew might have different properties from that of a Jew, since
: the non-Jews eat non-kosher foods and are physically affected by their
: diet. This has important ramifications.
Irrelevant.
:
: The CHASAM SOFER (Teshuvos YD 175) concludes that we cannot assume
: that a medical treatment that was tested successfully on a non-Jew
: will also be successful on a Jew. Therefore, if a Jewish woman always
: saw blood as a result of Tashmish, we cannot determine that a
: particular cure is reliable is reliable just because it was
: experimented successfully on non-Jews.
:
: How many of you (Non-Jews) are still holding out that Jews still view
: non-Jews as human beings. The material above almost looks like animal
: experimentation to me!
Garbage.
It is talking about the effects of a Kosher and non-Kosher lifestyle.
If this information was in any way damaging (which it isnt) why would Jews go
to such length to promote this information publically ?
:
: How many of you totally clueless Jews still have yet to figure why the
: majority of mankind has so thoroughly disliked you for thousands of
: years?
Its called Jew Hatred.
Jew Hatred is all about a thorough committment to evil, and involves a satanic
style religion.
The fact is that G-d's Chosen People keep G-d's Commandments that binds them
close to the Creator of the Universe and gives them incredible spiritual
powers.
The Jew Hater can sense this and is jealous.
It is the choice between good and evil.
The Jews are G-d's Chosen People who's mission it is to keep G-d's Law.
The Jew Haters have chosen evil and want to destroy what is good in the world.
Their lives are twisted with hatred and evil.
The fact is that when you take on G-d's Chosen People you are taking on G-d
Himself. Satan will give you great power in your pursuit of evil.
The Jew Hater has become enamoured of an evil beauty that is Jew Hatred.
I suggest you do the righteous thing before G-d and convert to Judaism and
observe G-d's Holy Commandments.
:
: Doc Tavish
:
:
:
: > With Sincere Disregard,
: >
: > Ali
: >
Doc, its the choice between good and evil.
Who's side are you on ?
Graham
msup...@microsoft.com
ask...@microsoft.com
bi...@microsoft.com
res...@microsoft.com
Graham Daveney
Doc Tavish (doc_t...@nonspam.bigfoot.com) wrote:
: On Mon, 09 Feb 1998 00:14:02 -0500, Susan Cohen <ze...@smart.net>
: wrote:
:
: >Even if non-Jews aren't allowed to come into contact with our
: >sacramental wine - which, I believe, is absolutely no
: >different than Xtians being very careful with their communion
: >wafres - it certainly isn't racism. We let anyone of
: >any race into our "club". Do you?
:
: You don't let Non-Jews touch your wine products PERIOD. This has
: nothing to do with their religion or the lack thereof- it has to do
: with them being Gentile and nothing more! This is racial and religious
: bigotry! (I have provided proof about the wine below.)
What does that mean for you Doc ?
You can touch Jewish whiskey, vodka, beer, gin, etc, etc.
And you are crying foul because you as a non-Jew cannot become intimately
involved in Jewish religious practises ?
Why don't you convert to Judaism and become a Jew then ?
Graham
[usual stuff snipped]
msup...@microsoft.com
ask...@microsoft.com
bi...@microsoft.com
res...@microsoft.com
Jethro
>>> Would it be racist if a white person forbids blacks from ever touching
his food? Like in a restaurant.
Graham Daveney wrote in message <6c0ph7$jq0$1...@daveney.matra.com.au>...
>Doc Tavish (doc_t...@nonspam.bigfoot.com) wrote:
>: On Mon, 09 Feb 1998 00:14:02 -0500, Susan Cohen <ze...@smart.net>
>: wrote:
>:
>: >Even if non-Jews aren't allowed to come into contact with our
>: >sacramental wine - which, I believe, is absolutely no
>: >different than Xtians being very careful with their communion
>: >wafres - it certainly isn't racism. We let anyone of
>: >any race into our "club". Do you?
>:
>: You don't let Non-Jews touch your wine products PERIOD. This has
>: nothing to do with their religion or the lack thereof- it has to do
>: with them being Gentile and nothing more! This is racial and religious
>: bigotry! (I have provided proof about the wine below.)
>
John Winslow Brown
Joseph Hertzlinger <jher...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in article
<6c0lei$7...@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com>...
> In <34e36c94....@news.smart1.net> doc_t...@nonspam.bigfoot.com
> (Doc Tavish) writes:
>
> >Name calling and childish taunts will not win the argument. The xample
> >you give is for one religion. Jews are a religion/race. You have many
> >Jews who aren't religious at all- they are secular or humanist BUT
> >they still are Jews! You aren't secular if you are a Catholic.
>
> IIRC, once a Catholic, always a Catholic. Secular Catholics are
> otherwise known as "lapsed Catholics" or, alternatively, as "damned."
>
> Similarly, Moslems regard Salman Rushdie as a heretic whereas someone
> with similar opinions who had never been Moslem would be ignored.
>
> There are occasional discussions on soc.culture.jewish about whether a
> child born from an egg from one woman and grew in the womb of another
> woman would derive its status from which mother. I think the commonest
> opinion is that it depends on the womb, whereas if Jews were a race it
> would depend on the DNA.
What about Tay-sachs disease? What about a specific type of breast cancer
that only Jewish women get?
I.E.
http://x4.dejanews.com/getdoc.xp?AN=161640529&CONTEXT=887389425.864747898&hi
tnum=7
Subject: Re: Rebuttal to Stan's Anti-Circumcision Speech
From: e...@halcyon.com (Elf Sternberg)
Date: 1996/06/23
Message-ID: <4qiab2$q...@news1.halcyon.com>
Newsgroups: soc.couples,soc.women,alt.polyamory
[More Headers]
In article <4qcs06$6...@shelob.aracnet.com>
s...@aracnet.com (James L. Weerts) writes:
>Excuse me, but the hygiene issue is indeed a big deal. There are
>studies that establish that the rates of cervical cancer are
>significantly higher among women whose spouses are uncircumsized
>than among those whose spouses are circumsized.
But those studies also show that incidence of Taysachs
syndrome is EIGHTY times more likely to happen to children of
circumsized men. Taysachs is a crippling form of mental retardation.
Of course, it could be that Taysachs is primarily a disease
found in the Jewish population, a population almost guaranteed to be
circumsized, whereas in places where this study was conducted most of
the uncircumsized people were not crossbred with that population that
carried the Taysachs genes.
The claim that uncircumsized penises are more likely to cause
cervical cancer is specious. Cervical cancer is just *rare* among
the populations they studied whose male half was circumsized.
Cervical cancer is extremely rare among Jewish women, and most people
attribute that mostly to the Jewish emphasis on fidelity and to a
healthier diet.
Elf !!!
Elf Sternberg Here we have clueless, well-armed people
e...@halcyon.com wandering around in an environment they
Public key available don't understand, and it scares them.
http://www.halcyon.com/elf So they try to control what they cannot
control with tools they do not have.
- John Perry Barlow.
~~~~~~~~~ End of Post ~~~~~~~~~~
AP 1-Oct-1996
by MALCOLM RITTER
AP Science Writer
NEW YORK (AP) -- Last year, a genetic defect that
promotes breast cancer was found to be unusually common
among Jewish women of Eastern European descent....
Ashkenazi Jews account for the vast majority of the
nation's Jewish population. They should not be alarmed
by the new findings, said Dr. Harry Ostrer of New York
University, an author of one of the new reports.....
~~~~~~~ End of Post ~~~~~~~
http://x3.dejanews.com/getdoc.xp?AN=140522445&CONTEXT=887389737.939327705&hi
tnum=0
Subject: DC area Askenazis and breast cancer
From: Phyliss Sholinsky <psho...@CapAccess.org>
Date: 1996/02/19
Message-ID:
<Pine.SUN.3.91-FP.9602...@cap1.capaccess.org>
Newsgroups: soc.genealogy.jewish
[More Headers]
Many of you may have heard about the finding of a breast cancer gene
associated with Askenazi descent. If you live in the Washington, DC
area, I urge you to participate in the below study. I did, and it
actually took only around 20 minutes. A fingerstick amount
of blood is taken and you fill out a questionnaire about where your
relatives
are from and their history of cancer. And who better than we genealogists
know our grandparents' towns of birth!!
If you're not in the DC area, you can still call the below number for
information -- and tell your DC friends and relatives to participate!
Thanks,
Phyliss Sholinsky
psho...@capaccess.org
---------- Forwarded message ----------
Cancer Researchers seek Volunteers
The National Institutes of Health (NIH) is seeking 3,000 to 5,000 Jewish
men
and women of Ashkenazi descent over the age of 21 from the Washington
metropolitan area for a study to see if an alteration in a particular gene
is
associated with an increased risk of cancer. A study in the Oct 1, 1995
issue
of 'Nature Genetics' reported that a particular alteration in the BRCA1
gene
was found in one percent of a group of Ashkenazi Jews. Previous studies
found
this alteration in several Ashkenazi families with a high incidence of
breast
and ovarian cancers.
Both men and women with and without family histories of cancer are needed
for
participation in the study. Volunteers will go to area synagogues, JCCs and
other community places and take small, 'finger-stick' blood samples;
participants will then complete a brief medical questionnaire that focuses
on
family history of cancer, including the type of cancer developed in family
members and the age at which it was first diagnosed. The whole process
should
take about a half-hour.
Participants will not receive individual results but may ask to receive an
explanation of the overall findings, which should be available by the fall
of
1996. Jewish community participation in medical research has led to better
understanding of genetic diseases like Tay-Sachs and cystic fibrosis. UJA
Federation is endorsing the research. For information or an appointment,
call
(301) 251-4272.
~~~~~~~~~~~ End of Post~~~~~~~~~~~
Please notice the line in the post above that says: " Jewish community
participation in medical research has led to better understanding of
genetic diseases like Tay-Sachs and cystic fibrosis." Just something for
all to thinks about!
Need I show more?
Sir John Winslow Brown
John Winslow Brown
Susan Cohen <ze...@smart.net> wrote in article
<34E1ED57...@smart.net>...
> All this self-righteous twaddle over one arcane law which doesn't
> inconvenience anyone from a group of "people" who think everyone but they
> are better off dead.
You have not one but many arcane laws which show a discrimination against
the rest of mankind.
> Boggles the mind.
Maybe you should have a psychological profile and a genetic test performed!
http://www.icondata.com/health/pedbase/files/TAYSACHS.HTM
PATHOGENESIS:
[ ... ]
3. Type III (Adult Form)
1. CNS Manifestations
•a wide range of symptoms and abnormal findings
•symptoms of spinocerebellar and lower motor neuron dysfunction are
most prominent:
•motor weakness
•tremor
•personality changes
•psychoses
•depression
•normal intelligence
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> Doc Tavish wrote:
>
> > http://www.kashrus.org/kosher/supervis.html
> >
> > [ ... ]
> >
> > .... Wine, more than any other food or drink, represents the holiness
> > and separateness of the Jewish people.
> >
> > It is used for the sanctification of Shabbat and Yom Tovand at Jewish
> > simchot. In the Beit Hamikdash wine was poured upon the Altar together
> > with the sacrifice. However, since wine was and still is used in many
> > forms of idolatrous worship, it has a unique status in Jewish Law,
> > which places extra restrictions on the making and handling of wine.
> > This includes wine used for non ceremonial purposes.
> >
> > The production and handling of kosher wine must be done exclusively by
> > Jews. Wine, grape juice, and all products containing wine or grape
> > juice must remain solely in Jewish hands during the manufacturing
> > process and also after the seal of the bottle has been opened.
> >
> > We are not allowed to drink any wine or grape juice, or any drink
> > containing wine or grape juice, which has been touched by a non Jew
> > after the seal of the bottle has been opened.
> >
> > [ ... ]
> >
> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> >
> > All of the above applies to you if you are a Gentile! Click the link
> > and verify for yourself the bigotry of Jewry. All of the above is
> > their words NOT mine! I will keep posting this material from all the
> > sources that I find it to wake you all up!
> >
> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> >
> > More bigotry from the same web page:
> >
> > Grape Ingredients In Processed Foods: All liquids produced from fresh
> > or dried grapes, whether alcoholic or non alcoholic, such as grape
> > juice and wine vinegar, are in the same category as wine in Jewish
> > Law.
> >
> > Therefore foods with grape flavoring or additives must aiways have a
> > reliable hechsher; examples are jam, soda, popsicles, candy, juice
> > packed fruit, fruit punch, and lemonade.
> > Alcoholic drinks such as cognac and brandy have wine bases. Liqueurs
> > and blended whiskeys are often blended with wine. All such beverages
> > require kashnut supervision, as does herring in wine sauce. Cream of
> > tartar is made from wine sediment and needs Rabbinical supervision.
> >
> > All baked goods must have reliable kashrut certification. Some
> > bakeries in Jewish communities carry the certification from a local
> > Orthodox Rabbi or the kashrut board in that city.
> >
> > In addition, bread, cake and other baked goods from a Jewish bakery
> > with reliable kashnut certification often ensures not only the kashrut
> > of these products but also that they are patYisrael. It is preferable
> > to use pat Yisrael products whenever possible. This means that a
> > Jewish person has baked or assisted in the baking of the products.
> > Even if he simply lit the oven he is considered as having assisted.
> > Non commercial bread and cake that is completely baked by an
> > individual non Jew is called pat akum and may not be eaten.
> >
> > [ ... ]
> >
> > Certain foods which were completely cooked by a non Jew (disbud akum)
> > may not be eaten, even if the foods are kosher and are cooked in
> > kosher utensils.
> >
Gregory Taylor
Scott Bradbury, practicing *mental* self abuse for a change, shows us
that he can use a search engine, but not actually *read.*
>http://www.carmelwines.com/fs_kashrut.html
>"4.From the time the grapes arrive at the winery, only Sabbath
>observant Jews are allowed to work on the production of the wines, or
>touch the wine making equipment."
>
>In other words Gentiles are not allowed!
Given that #4 has to be followed to receive Kosher certification, it would
that non-Jews aren't supposed to be involved in the production. Are you
upset about this because you want to go into the winemaking business? I
can't imagine that the market would be huge, given that no al Jews keep
Kosher, and they constitute a minority of the population here even then.
If you wish to argue that no one who's Jewish should be allowed to engage
in any exclusionary behaviour whatsoever, then I'd think seriously before
making your point; I expect that you engage in any number of exclusionary
acts (the notion that your so-called "thought processes" exclude logic,
knowledge, and critical acumen, for example) which you'd very much like
to hang onto. As Honest Abe said, "Those who would deny freedom to others
are not worthy of the exercise of it."
How precisely does keeping kosher oppress you? Does it do so in the same way
that not being considered for certain jobs because of your education does?
Does keeping kosher oppress you in the same way that being unable to
proselityze in various Muslim countries oppress you? Does it oppress you in
the same way that not being able to celcbrate communion in the Roman
Catholic church oppress you?
Don't tell me, let me guess - your view of exclusion boils down to "For me,
but not for thee," right?
Since you seem incensed at seeing your own shenanigans done by others, yet
seem unable or orwilling to recognize the same behaviour on your own part,
I imagine that we'll get roughly this answer. You're immune, right?
Right. Stay in school, kids!
--
When I pronounce the word Future,/the first syllable already belongs to the
past./When I pronounce the word Silence,/I destroy it./When I pronounce the
word Nothing,/I make something no nonbeing can hold./ (Wislawa Szymborska)
Gregory Taylor WORT-FM URL:http://www.msn.fullfeed.com/~gtaylor/RTQE.html
Doc Tavish
Attention Lurkers and Newbies:
In this post you will see much bigotry and denial. The bigotry you
will see is manifested in statements such as these:
"We are not allowed to drink any wine or grape juice, or any drink
containing wine or grape juice, which has been touched by a non Jew
after the seal of the bottle has been opened."
"Non commercial bread and cake that is completely baked by an
individual non-Jew is called pat akum and may not be eaten."
"Certain foods which were completely cooked by a non-Jew (disbud akum)
may not be eaten, even if the foods are kosher and are cooked in
kosher utensils."
"In an effort to limit social mingling with our gentile neighbors and
the intermarriage which might result, our sages prohibited eating food
cooked by gentiles, even if all ingredients are kosher and the food is
cooked in a kosher vessel while under the watchful eye of a Jewish
supervisor."
"Such food is referred to in Hebrew as bishul nochri or bishul akum.
It is particularly important to bear this issue in mind if one has a
non-Jewish housekeeper or attendent who takes part in household
food preparation."
"The prohibition of bishul nochri applies only if the entire cooking
process is done by the nochri . If a Jew places the food on the fire
or, according to the Ashkenazic view, if he ignites or increases the
fire, no bishul nochri problem can develop. Even if the cooking
process was initiated by a nochri , as long as it was substantially
completed by a Jew (e.g. the pot was removed from the fire before the
food can be considered cooked and then returned to the fire by a Jew)
the bishul nochri prohibition will generally not be present."
"The rabbis later went further in battling assimilation, declaring any
wine handled by a non-Jew unfit to drink."
"Rabbinic authorities decreed that wine, even if touched by non-Jews,
was fit for Jewish use so long as it was mevushal, or cooked. The idea
was, in part, that cooked wine is far less palatable and no one would
want to use it."
.................................................
Read the following and pick out these phrases from the text and notice
the form of defense the denier uses. Namely personal attacks and
smear!
Doc Tavish
On 13 Feb 1998 21:26:17 GMT, gta...@shell1.msn.fullfeed.com (Gregory
Taylor) wrote:
>Scott Bradbury, practicing *mental* self abuse for a change, shows us
>that he can use a search engine, but not actually *read.*
>
>>http://www.carmelwines.com/fs_kashrut.html
>
>>"4.From the time the grapes arrive at the winery, only Sabbath
>>observant Jews are allowed to work on the production of the wines, or
>>touch the wine making equipment."
>>
>>In other words Gentiles are not allowed!
>Given that #4 has to be followed to receive Kosher certification, it would
>that non-Jews aren't supposed to be involved in the production. Are you
>upset about this because you want to go into the winemaking business?
You shouldn't be calling others racist if they say they don't want
non-whites to be involved in what ever they do. I don't see the
difference and I'd bet that other thinking people don't see it either.
Jews are racist!
>If you wish to argue that no one who's Jewish should be allowed to engage
>in any exclusionary behaviour whatsoever, then I'd think seriously before
>making your point; I expect that you engage in any number of exclusionary
>acts (the notion that your so-called "thought processes" exclude logic,
>knowledge, and critical acumen, for example) which you'd very much like
>to hang onto.
You only make personal attacks and insults in your defense of Jewish
bigotry and now you bring Abe Lincoln in!
>As Honest Abe said, "Those who would deny freedom to others
>are not worthy of the exercise of it."
So you are saying don't deny Jews their freedom to be bigoted because
others freedom to be bigoted may not be worthy.
>How precisely does keeping kosher oppress you? Does it do so in the same way
>that not being considered for certain jobs because of your education does?
>Does keeping kosher oppress you in the same way that being unable to
>proselityze in various Muslim countries oppress you? Does it oppress you in
>the same way that not being able to celcbrate communion in the Roman
>Catholic church oppress you?
That argument is the same argument that all of your side gives. You
all must have cue cards with stock answers on them! Kosher is just a
dodge to hide behind because Jewry's Pharisaic elitists still look
down their noses at Non-Jews as being unclean. That is why we find
such gems as these:
http://www.kashrus.org/kosher/supervis.html
Now make excuses for the statements made at the site:
--- "We are not allowed to drink any wine or grape juice, or any drink
containing wine or grape juice, which has been touched by a non Jew
after the seal of the bottle has been opened."
Why aren't Jews allowed to drink if the seal has been broken and the
wine is touched by a non-Jew?
---" Non commercial bread and cake that is completely baked by an
individual non-Jew is called pat akum and may not be eaten."
I'm dying to hear you explain this bigotry too! Can you imagine the
outrage by you if a web site had a something that said instead:
"Non commercial bread and cake that is completely baked by an
individual non-White is called pat akum and may not be eaten by a
white." ?
---"Certain foods which were completely cooked by a non-Jew (disbud
akum) may not be eaten, even if the foods are kosher and are cooked in
kosher utensils."
How about this? Care to explain?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Look at these:
http://www.mcs.net/~kollel/www/halacha/fax210.html
HALACHA ON - LINE
In Memory of Rabbi Dov Ber Rosenblum z''l
a dedicated Torah scholar whose greatest love was the study and
clarification of Halacha
Food Preparations, Part One vol.2 no.10
In an effort to limit social mingling with our gentile neighbors and
the intermarriage which might result, our sages prohibited eating food
cooked by gentiles, even if all ingredients are kosher and the food is
cooked in a kosher vessel while under the watchful eye of a Jewish
supervisor.
Such food is referred to in Hebrew as bishul nochri or bishul akum. It
is particularly important to bear this issue in mind if one has a
non-Jewish housekeeper or attendent who takes part in household food
preparation.
When establishing this prohibition, the sages excluded foods which
would have been fully edible prior to the cooking process. Therefore,
pasteurization of milk and juice, though typically done by non-Jews,
presents no bishul nochri problem. Some authorities use this exclusion
as the justification for the common practice to drink coffee or tea
cooked by a gentile. These drinks can be viewed as basically being
flavored water. As water is drinkable prior to any cooking, water and
by extension coffee and tea, are exempted from this prohibition. Other
examples within this category would be most fruit and those vegetables
which could be eaten raw.
Another category excluded from this prohibition is that of foods that
are not dignified enough to be served on shulchan melachim - literally
the table of kings or practically, as a dish at a fancy dinner.
Accordingly, if for example, a bowl of oatmeal was cooked by a
non-Jewish housekeeper, the bishul nochri prohibition does not apply.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
A Community Service of Kollel Toras Chesed of Skokie
------------------------------------------------------------------------
kol...@mcs.com Kollel Toras Chesed Voice (708) 674-7959 3732 W.
Dempster Fax (708) 674-4023 Skokie, IL 60076 BBS (708) 674-4023 Last
Revision: August 22, 1995
http://www.mcs.net/~kollel/www/halacha/fax211.html
HALACHA ON - LINE
In Memory of Rabbi Dov Ber Rosenblum z''l
a dedicated Torah scholar whose greatest love was the study and
clarification of Halacha
Food Production part two vol.2 no.11
In our last issue we introduced the laws of bishul nochri .
[Review: Food Preparations, Part One vol.2 no.10 In an effort to
limit social mingling with our gentile neighbors and the intermarriage
which might result, our sages prohibited eating food cooked by
gentiles, even if all ingredients are kosher and the food is cooked in
a kosher vessel while under the watchful eye of a Jewish supervisor.
Such food is referred to in Hebrew as bishul nochri or bishul akum.]
We received certain questions regarding the common practice of kosher
caterers and commercial food producers. The following additional
guidelines provide significant insight into the halachic basis for
food preperation involving significant amounts of cooking by nochrim .
The prohibition of bishul nochri applies only if the entire cooking
process is done by the nochri . If a Jew places the food on the fire
or, according to the Ashkenazic view, if he ignites or increases the
fire, no bishul nochri problem can develop. Even if the cooking
process was initiated by a nochri , as long as it was substantially
completed by a Jew (e.g. the pot was removed from the fire before the
food can be considered cooked and then returned to the fire by a Jew)
the bishul nochri prohibition will generally not be present. In the
latter case other factors must be determined and halachic guidance is
suggested.
In keeping with this rule, if the food was previously cooked by a Jew
and is merely being reheated by the nochri , no problem arises.
In summary, the bishul nochri prohibition applies only if all of the
following conditions exist :
1.the food was not fit to be eaten prior to the cooking
2.the food is fit to be served as a dish at a formal meal
3.the food was cooked entirely by a nochri (Gentile)
In a situation in which bishul nochri did occur, the vessels in which
the food was cooked are regarded as having non-kosher absorptions. It
is therefore necessary to kasher them prior to further use. However,
since the prohibition involved is only of Rabbinic origin, some
leniencies do apply. If the utensil in question is for some halachic
or practical reason incapable of undergoing a typical absorption
removal process, Rabbinic guidance may yield allowance to use it
without the conventional kashering.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
From B'nai B'rith (Mother of ADL):
http://bnaibrith.org/ijm/articles/wine/index.html
Vineyard Vanguard:
The new taste of a well-aged tradition
By Joseph Berkofsky
[ ... ] (Excerpt used for "educational" purposes]
Like all other kosher food or drink, kosher wine cannot contain any
unkosher animal or fish products; to be kosher for Passover, it must
also not come in contact with any leavened grains.
But the law regarding wine extracts another, more pressing, demand: It
cannot be handled by non-Jews.
The roots of this law reach back to the ancient Land of Israel where,
to prevent Jews from drinking wines used in idol worship, Jewish law
forbade Jews to touch wine that had been moved in an open vessel by
non-Jews, since it was likely used as a wave offering. The rabbis
later went further in battling assimilation, declaring any wine
handled by a non-Jew unfit to drink.
Today, in order to ensure that a wine meets all the kashrut
requirements, the entire winemaking process from grape-crushing to
bottling is overseen by trained, Sabbath-observant Jews, or
mashgichim, who handle all flow of the wine. And, as Ben Welton, a
mashgiach for St. Supéry and others, can attest, this kind of kosher
supervision can mean as much toil as Torah.
With help from nearby non-Jewish winery workers, mashgichim operate
cranes to unload the grapes from trucks after the fall harvest. They
run the crushers which break the grapes, and pipe the crushed grapes
and juice into steel tanks. And they oversee the rest of the process
from fermentation, when yeast converts the grape's sugar into alcohol,
to filtering the wine and moving it into oak barrels to be aged.
At times, says Welton, this is dizzying work - literally. Not too long
ago, he recalls, he had to dig heavy heaps of stems from a huge
fermentation tank at St. Supéry - while wearing a lifeline to show
that he was not inhaling too much alcohol vapor.
Peak season for mashgichim like Welton is between August and January,
when most of the winemaking occurs. And, although a mashgiach need not
be on premises other than when the wine is being moved through the
process, mashgichim will occassionally return to inspect the wine as
it ages to ensure that it has not been touched by non-Jews.
But those wineries that wish to involve non-Jews in the process can
tap into a Talmudic ruling that makes this possible.
Rabbinic authorities decreed that wine, even if touched by non-Jews,
was fit for Jewish use so long as it was mevushal, or cooked. The idea
was, in part, that cooked wine is far less palatable and no one would
want to use it.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Your damned Jews still have a cob where the sun does not shine!
Attention lurkers: Non-Jew refers to all humanity that isn't Jewish
and most likely this means you! Save this post to a disk and read it
often as a reminder! Be sure to read and re-read the opening phrases
that are words of Jewish thought. They think highly of you all as you
can readily see!
Back to Gregory Taylor and his personal attack in the name of fighting
bigotry!
>Don't tell me, let me guess - your view of exclusion boils down to "For me,
>but not for thee," right?
>
>Since you seem incensed at seeing your own shenanigans done by others, yet
>seem unable or orwilling to recognize the same behaviour on your own part,
>I imagine that we'll get roughly this answer. You're immune, right?
I am speaking of millions but yet you are only speaking of me. What I
do is actually of little consequence but the bigots that you
incessantly defend wield an unfair amount of political power. This
evil!
Graham Daveney
Jethro (Poli...@not.ok) wrote:
: >>> Would it be racist if a white person forbids blacks from ever touching
: his food? Like in a restaurant.
Of course it would be.
You obviously havent read my posts.
If a non-Jew desperately wants to become involved with Jewish religious
practises then he can convert and become a Jew.
At no time is the non-Jew prohibited from touching Jewish whiskey, vodka,
beer, etc, because these alcoholic beverages are not used for Jewish
religious practices.
I have non-Jews over for Sabbath dinners all the time, we just ask them
not to touch the wine. They couldnt care less.
Not being able to touch the wine is an exclusion purely on religious grounds,
which has nothing to do with social mixing.
How about you read my posts in the future ?
Graham
: Graham Daveney wrote in message <6c0ph7$jq0$1...@daveney.matra.com.au>...
: >Doc Tavish (doc_t...@nonspam.bigfoot.com) wrote:
: >: On Mon, 09 Feb 1998 00:14:02 -0500, Susan Cohen <ze...@smart.net>
: >: wrote:
: >:
: >: >Even if non-Jews aren't allowed to come into contact with our
: >: >sacramental wine - which, I believe, is absolutely no
: >: >different than Xtians being very careful with their communion
: >: >wafres - it certainly isn't racism. We let anyone of
: >: >any race into our "club". Do you?
: >:
: >: You don't let Non-Jews touch your wine products PERIOD. This has
: >: nothing to do with their religion or the lack thereof- it has to do
: >: with them being Gentile and nothing more! This is racial and religious
: >: bigotry! (I have provided proof about the wine below.)
: >
: >What does that mean for you Doc ?
Doc Tavish
Attention Lurkers and Newbies:
Doc Tavish
non-whatevers to be involved in what ever they do. I don't see the
difference and I'd bet that other thinking people don't see it either.
Jews are racist!
>If you wish to argue that no one who's Jewish should be allowed to engage
>in any exclusionary behaviour whatsoever, then I'd think seriously before
>making your point; I expect that you engage in any number of exclusionary
>acts (the notion that your so-called "thought processes" exclude logic,
>knowledge, and critical acumen, for example) which you'd very much like
>to hang onto.
You only make personal attacks and insults in your defense of Jewish
bigotry and now you bring Abe Lincoln in!
>As Honest Abe said, "Those who would deny freedom to others
>are not worthy of the exercise of it."
So you are saying don't deny Jews their freedom to be bigoted because
other people's freedom to be bigoted may not be worthy.
http://www.kashrus.org/kosher/supervis.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Look at these:
http://www.mcs.net/~kollel/www/halacha/fax210.html
HALACHA ON - LINE
http://www.mcs.net/~kollel/www/halacha/fax211.html
HALACHA ON - LINE
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
http://bnaibrith.org/ijm/articles/wine/index.html
Vineyard Vanguard:
By Joseph Berkofsky
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
From another of your posts; this smear:
From: gta...@shell1.msn.fullfeed.com (Gregory Taylor)
Subject: Re: More Evidence of Exclusionary Bigotry Toward Non-Jews in
the Jewish Scheme of Things!
Date: 13 Feb 1998 17:16:55 GMT
>Scottie; the only "lurkers"
>who'd buy your "proofs" exist either in your fevered brain, live behind
>the walls of your trailer, or are more commonly known as your feet and
>your other hand.
If you so thoroughly believed that what I post wasn't being read you
and yours would not expend all the inordinate amounts of time that you
do chasing me all over. You would treat me as something of
irrelevance- something that is generally ignored. When you heap the
attention that you do on me then I know that I am doing my job! :-)
Now I must take my leave to ferret out more examples of bigotry and
hatred toward the majority of mankind!
Doc Tavish
Jack Garbuz
Listen, you "aryan" swine, your Fuehrer forbade intermarriage with Jews
to preserve your precious blood which in your case has made you a mental
defective. So yOu should be grateful that for centuries the rabbis tried
to prevent mixing, mingling and intermarriage. Why are you complaining
about it?
Susan Cohen
Doc Tavish wrote:
> Attention Lurkers and Newbies:
>
> In this post you will see much bigotry and denial.
Oh, heck - we're used to your posts by now! No need to warn anyone!
Susan Cohen
Doc Tavish wrote:
> Attention Lurkers and Newbies:
>
> In this post you will see much bigotry and denial.
Oh, heck - we're used to your posts by now! No need to warn anyone!
Susan Cohen
John Winslow Brown wrote:
> Joseph Hertzlinger <jher...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in article
> <6c0lei$7...@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com>...
> > In <34e36c94....@news.smart1.net> doc_t...@nonspam.bigfoot.com
> > (Doc Tavish) writes:
> >
> > >Name calling and childish taunts will not win the argument. The xample
> > >you give is for one religion. Jews are a religion/race. You have many
> > >Jews who aren't religious at all- they are secular or humanist BUT
> > >they still are Jews! You aren't secular if you are a Catholic.
> >
> > IIRC, once a Catholic, always a Catholic. Secular Catholics are
> > otherwise known as "lapsed Catholics" or, alternatively, as "damned."
> >
> > Similarly, Moslems regard Salman Rushdie as a heretic whereas someone
> > with similar opinions who had never been Moslem would be ignored.
> >
> > There are occasional discussions on soc.culture.jewish about whether a
> > child born from an egg from one woman and grew in the womb of another
> > woman would derive its status from which mother. I think the commonest
> > opinion is that it depends on the womb, whereas if Jews were a race it
> > would depend on the DNA.
>
> What about Tay-sachs disease?
Non-Jews get it, too. There was a case in the South a few years back - the woman
was absolutely stunned - poor thing.
Oh, & white people can get sickle-cell anemia.
> What about a specific type of breast cancer
> that only Jewish women get?
Never heard of it.
Doc Tavish
On Mon, 16 Feb 1998 02:07:25 -0500, Susan Cohen <ze...@smart.net>
wrote:
>
>
>Doc Tavish wrote:
>
>> Attention Lurkers and Newbies:
>>
>> In this post you will see much bigotry and denial.
>Oh, heck - we're used to your posts by now! No need to warn anyone!
Snipping out what i posted won't make the truth go away Susie Q.
Here is what makes Susie Q so uptight:
Jamie Lednik
> : wrote:
> :
[snip]
> : You don't let Non-Jews touch your wine products PERIOD. This has
> : nothing to do with their religion or the lack thereof- it has to do
> : with them being Gentile and nothing more! This is racial and religious
> : bigotry! (I have provided proof about the wine below.)
>
I guess this means no non-Christians should ever think Christians are
elitist for believing if you are not born again you're going straight to
hell, right?
Susan Cohen
Jamie Lednik wrote:
> Graham Daveney wrote:
Nothing quoted here.
> > Doc Tavish (doc_t...@nonspam.bigfoot.com) wrote:
> > : On Mon, 09 Feb 1998 00:14:02 -0500, Susan Cohen <ze...@smart.net>
> > : wrote:
Nothing quoted here - but don't worry!
> [snip]
>
> > : You don't let Non-Jews touch your wine products PERIOD.
Nor do we let non-Sabbath-observing Jews do so.
> This has
> > : nothing to do with their religion or the lack thereof- it has to do
> > : with them being Gentile and nothing more!
Does anyone else catch the complete & total self-contradiction here? "This has
nothing to do with their religion...it has to do with them being Gentile..."
Just when you think Scott Bradbury couldn't say anything more stu[id than he
already has, he comes out with this!(And the fact that it is strictly
religion-based is evidenced by the fact that even non-religious Jews aren't
allowed to touch kosher wine, either. It is strictly a religious issue.).
> This is racial and religious
> > : bigotry!
COnsidering that Scott Bradbury is the only one who ever mentions race (none
of the sources he quotes ever do), this is just more proof of his deliberate
lying.
> (I have provided proof about the wine below.)
No, he never does.
> I guess this means no non-Christians should ever think Christians are
> elitist for believing if you are not born again you're going straight to
> hell, right?
No, just incorrect. :-) (Please note the Smiley (tm).)
Seriously, they can believe whatever they like. They just had better not tell
me (or anyone else so disinclined) that *I* (they) have to believe it, too.
Susan Cohen
Jamie Lednik wrote:
> Graham Daveney wrote:
Nothing quoted here.
> > Doc Tavish (doc_t...@nonspam.bigfoot.com) wrote:
> > : On Mon, 09 Feb 1998 00:14:02 -0500, Susan Cohen <ze...@smart.net>
> > : wrote:
Nothing quoted here - but don't worry!
> [snip]
>
> > : You don't let Non-Jews touch your wine products PERIOD.
Nor do we let non-Sabbath-observing Jews do so.
> This has
> > : nothing to do with their religion or the lack thereof- it has to do
> > : with them being Gentile and nothing more!
Does anyone else catch the complete & total self-contradiction here? "This has
nothing to do with their religion...it has to do with them being Gentile..."
Just when you think Scott Bradbury couldn't say anything more stupid than he
already has, he comes out with this! (And the fact that it is strictly
religion-based is evidenced by the fact that even non-religious Jews aren't
allowed to touch kosher wine, either. It is strictly a religious issue.).
> This is racial and religious
> > : bigotry!
Considering that Scott Bradbury is the only one who ever mentions race (none
of the sources he quotes ever do), this is just more proof of his deliberate
lying.
> (I have provided proof about the wine below.)
No, he never does.
> I guess this means no non-Christians should ever think Christians are
> elitist for believing if you are not born again you're going straight to
> hell, right?
No, just incorrect. :-) (Please note the Smiley (tm).)
Seriously, they can believe whatever they like. They just had better not tell
me (or anyone else so disinclined) that *I* (&/or they) have to believe it,
too.
KCUF airmaster
On Mon, 23 Feb 1998 03:07:11 GMT, lo...@opie.bgsu.edu wrote:
>
>>> : You don't let Non-Jews touch your wine products PERIOD. This has
>>> : nothing to do with their religion or the lack thereof- it has to do
>>> : with them being Gentile and nothing more! This is racial and religious
>>> : bigotry! (I have provided proof about the wine below.)
>
>You don't let them touch it because you do not know if they are
>idolators or not. This is especially the case with the come-back of
>paganism. Wine is used in religious rituals in many cultures. If the
>wine has been touched by a non-Jew (or a Jew who does is not observant
>for that matter) then you have to assume, just to be safe, that it
>might have had a blessing said over it dedicating it to some god other
>than the one that Jews worship. We are forbidden from taking part in
>any sort of idolatry hence we are forbidden from drinking wine that
>has been touched by those who are suspect to taking part in idolatry.
>This includes some Jews.
Your cult establishes a moral dichotomy, and that's enough to see how damaging
that can be to humanity. Enough!
SUPPORT THE WAR AGAINST JUDEO-CHRISTIANITY
airm...@KCUF.org .:
<http://www.kcuf.org/> - radio .:.
<http://www.anus.com/> - metal/evil
:. NON SERVIAM
"It was the only time I ever went into combat
stoned," said Peter Lemon, describing how he fought
off two waves of Vietcong and dragged a wounded
comrade to safety.
Fergus McClelland
gra...@daveney.matra.com.au (Graham Daveney) wrote:
>Doc Tavish (doc_t...@nonspam.bigfoot.com) wrote:
>: On 12 Feb 1998 08:08:55 GMT, a...@creative.net wrote:
>:
>: >
>: >I just know I'll regret trying to explain this to the Ur-Putz below,
>:
>: Name calling and childish taunts will not win the argument. The xample
>: you give is for one religion. Jews are a religion/race.
>
>Garbage.
>
>Being Jewish is a religious identity.
Does that make Israel a religious State?
>The fact is that the Jewish religion still defines someone as Jewish even if
>they have thrown away all aspects of Judaism.
>
>eg: if a Jew converted to Catholocism and then became the Pope, he would still
>be considered a Jew.
>
>You are confusing the Christian's concept of a Christian with the Jew's concept
>of a Jew.
>
>You cannot compare the two.
>
>: You have many
>: Jews who aren't religious at all- they are secular or humanist BUT
>: they still are Jews! You aren't secular if you are a Catholic.
>
>You are wrong again.
>
>A Jew is someone who is born of a Jewish mother, or who had a valid Orthodox
>conversion. Period.
>
>Their behaviour after the event that defined their Jewishness is irrelevant.
>
>This is your mistake.
>
>You are applying the Christian concept of Christian identity to the Jewish
>religion. This is meaningless.
>
>:
>: Jews discriminate against the entire body of the rest of humanity
>: whether it's based on a religious stand or a racial stand.
>
>Meaningless.
>
>Wine is an integral part of Jewish religious ceremonies.
>
>Why don't you run down to your nearest Catholic Church and complain to the
>Priest there that he is a racist because he will not let you take a confessional.
Why say "racist" if Jewishness is entirely a religion?
>"But you are not a Catholic Priest", he would say.
>
>"Racist ! Racist ! Racist" you yell.
>
>You cannot touch the Jewish wine because you are not a Jew.
All I hope is that I am not missing out on a good drink!
>
>If you want to touch the Jewish wine so much, then why don't you get off your
>backside and convert and become a Jew ?
I don't think he is that thirsty.
>
>Then you could even _make_ the wine from start to finish.
>
>You could call it "Tavishes Kosher Wines".
>
>:
>: >however, I'll give
>: >it a try....Kosher wine is just as sacred to Jews (observant ones) as the funny little
>: >wafers called the host are to Catholics....you will find that Catholic doctrine and practice
>: >forbid non-catholics from being in any way involved in the manufacture of said wafers...
That I hadn't heard; a sort of Catholic Kosher production. I'm not
saying you are wrong, but have you any proof for this? It was my
understanding that the wafers are only wafer until they are used in a
service -which is when they become sacred, so, a packet of biscuits
from the supermarket would suffice, whoever made it.
>: >it's that religion thing nitwit....
>:
>: Still using the insults heh?
>:
>: Try to explain this bigotry from this website:
>
>There is no bigotry.
>
>If you want to take part in Jewish religious ceremonies then I suggest you
>convert to Judaism and become a Jew.
Many Christian sects allow non-members to take part in their services
- though there are a few things I should imagine they would not be
allowed to do. However, being born to Catholic parents would not
automatically allow someone to take part in Communion.
>:
>: http://www.kashrus.org/kosher/supervis.html
>:
>: Now make excuses for the statements made at the site:
>:
>: 1) ".... Wine, more than any other food or drink, represents the
>: holiness and separateness of the Jewish people."
>:
>: Aren't non-Jews holy or clean?
>
>Irrelevant.
>
>Non-Jews arent Jews and that it why they cannot participate in certain Jewish
>religious ceremonies.
>
>You know, none of the non-Jews I have had over for Sabbath dinners have
>complained about not being able to touch the wine.
>
>Because they could touch the :
>
>whiskey
>the beer
>the vodka
>the khaluah
What's khaluah?
>
>only wine is involved in Jewish religious ceremonies.
>
>:
>: 2) "The production and handling of kosher wine must be done
>: exclusively by Jews. Wine, grape juice, and all products containing
>: wine or grape juice must remain solely in Jewish hands during the
>: manufacturing process and also after the seal of the bottle has been
>: opened."
>:
>: Are non-Jews unclean? Is this why they can't touch the bottle of wine
>: after the seal is broken?
>
>No, because there is a fear that a non-Jew who worships idols could consecrate
>the wine for idolatry.
So why can't an atheist touch the wine then - or a Muslim who worships
no idols, or an esoteric Buddhist who has only one God being and no
physical representations of same?
>: 3) "We are not allowed to drink any wine or grape juice, or any drink
>: containing wine or grape juice, which has been touched by a non Jew
>: after the seal of the bottle has been opened."
>:
>: A repeat in general from above. Why aren't Jews allowed to drink if
>: the seal has been broken and the wine is touched by a non-Jew?
>
>Because there is a fear that the non-Jew may consecrate the wine for the
>worship of idols.
Even atheists?
>:
>: 4) " Non commercial bread and cake that is completely baked by an
>: individual non-Jew is called pat akum and may not be eaten."
>:
>: I'm dying to hear you explain this bigotry too! Can you imagine the
>: outrage by you if a web site had a something that said instead:
>: "Non commercial bread and cake that is completely baked by an
>: individual non-White is called pat akum and may not be eaten by a
>: white." ? You'd be screaming racist bigot at the top of your lungs!
>
>Irrelevant.
Not entirely. Though Susan, bless her, has explained some very valid
reasons for this.
>Why don't you ask Catholics if non-Catholics can make the bread for communion.
Can't they?
>: 5) "Certain foods which were completely cooked by a non-Jew (disbud
>: akum) may not be eaten, even if the foods are kosher and are cooked in
>: kosher utensils."
>:
>: How about this? Care to explain?
>
>There is a fear that the non-Jew out of ignorance of the laws of Jewish
>eating could have done something inadvertently to make the food non-Kosher.
Reasonable explanation.
>Non-Jews being outside of the Jewish religion are not expected to know or care
>about the intricacies of the Laws of Kashrut (Kosher).
Agreed.
>:
>: ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>:
>: Here is one for laughs. Care to explain the bigoty and ignorance this
>: is based on?
>:
>: http://shemayisrael.co.il/dafyomi2/nidah/insites/ni-dt-34.htm
>:
>: THOUGHTS ON THE DAILY DAF
>:
>: brought to you by Kollel Iyun Hadaf of Har Nof
>: Rosh Kollel: Rav Mordecai Kornfeld
>:
>: ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>:
>: Ask A Question about the Daf
>:
>: Nidah 34
>:
>: 1.JEWISH PHYSIOLOGY The Gemara suggests that perhaps the Shichvas Zera
>: of a non-Jew might have different properties from that of a Jew, since
>: the non-Jews eat non-kosher foods and are physically affected by their
>: diet. This has important ramifications.
>
>Irrelevant.
No it isn't. It is taking the view that eating kosher purified, or at
least prevents pollution, and that over generations Jews become
"purer" as a result; a sort of spiritual Lysenkoism, breeding a Chosen
race by what is eaten.
>: The CHASAM SOFER (Teshuvos YD 175) concludes that we cannot assume
>: that a medical treatment that was tested successfully on a non-Jew
>: will also be successful on a Jew. Therefore, if a Jewish woman always
>: saw blood as a result of Tashmish, we cannot determine that a
>: particular cure is reliable is reliable just because it was
>: experimented successfully on non-Jews.
>:
>: How many of you (Non-Jews) are still holding out that Jews still view
>: non-Jews as human beings. The material above almost looks like animal
>: experimentation to me!
>
>Garbage.
Agree with you here. It says different, not animals. Animals is said
elsewhere but not in this statement.
>It is talking about the effects of a Kosher and non-Kosher lifestyle.
>
>If this information was in any way damaging (which it isnt) why would Jews go
>to such length to promote this information publically ?
>: How many of you totally clueless Jews still have yet to figure why the
>: majority of mankind has so thoroughly disliked you for thousands of
>: years?
>
>Its called Jew Hatred.
That's one of its names certainly.
>Jew Hatred is all about a thorough committment to evil, and involves a satanic
>style religion.
I think not. It is all about a reaction to what is understood to be
Judaism and attitudes of Jews. There are times when it is absolutely
stupid and indeed evil, but it is not some little idea thought up by
one idiot, it is a widespread set of dislikes and distrusts, based on
knowledge, ignorance, experience and personal preference. I am
inoculated against it, but I can feel its wind.
>The fact is that G-d's Chosen People keep G-d's Commandments that binds them
>close to the Creator of the Universe and gives them incredible spiritual
>powers.
There you go, spouting religion in a way that looks racist, making
trouble for yourself. To some, Christianity is God's chosen religion,
being a shoot from Judaism, and therefore Christians are God's chosen
people. However, you are speaking of an ethnicity, and are using the
word Chosen in such a way that those not in the know will think you
mean "Chosen as best" (which in a way you do) rather than "Chosen to
serve," which is a far more acceptable concept to non-Jews.
>The Jew Hater can sense this and is jealous.
I should imagine he senses that you believe it and is annoyed. If he
believed it, after all, he would be a believer in Judaism wouldn't he
- which would make him a "sort-of" Jew would it not?
>
>It is the choice between good and evil.
So you are saying that not being a Jew is evil!
>The Jews are G-d's Chosen People who's mission it is to keep G-d's Law.
No, followers of Judaism believe that, non-believers don't. Can't you
see that arrogance of the assertion? "We are teacher's pet - prefects
of the almighty; and you lot came second and hate us for our
specialness with him".
>The Jew Haters have chosen evil and want to destroy what is good in the world.
Not all of them. Many just hate the elitist stuff you are spouting.
Re-word it in an acceptable form.
>Their lives are twisted with hatred and evil.
Some of them probably, as are the lives of some Jews I am sure.
>
>The fact is that when you take on G-d's Chosen People you are taking on G-d
>Himself. Satan will give you great power in your pursuit of evil.
Blimey!
>The Jew Hater has become enamoured of an evil beauty that is Jew Hatred.
See my responses to this simplistic stuff above.
>I suggest you do the righteous thing before G-d and convert to Judaism and
>observe G-d's Holy Commandments.
>:
>: Doc Tavish
>: > With Sincere Disregard,
>: >
>: > Ali
>
>Doc, its the choice between good and evil.
>
>Who's side are you on ?
It seems Graham that you are saying you equal good and Doc equals
evil. To my mind, Susan Cohen equals good, even when I disagree with
her; the goodness shines out of her pale blue eyes. But you seem to be
a simple-minded fanatic, and I find it hard to see a difference
between your defences and Doc's attacks.
Susan Cohen
(Piggybacking included)
KCUF airmaster wrote:
> On Mon, 23 Feb 1998 03:07:11 GMT, lo...@opie.bgsu.edu wrote:
>
> >
> >>> : You don't let Non-Jews touch your wine products PERIOD. This has
> >>> : nothing to do with their religion or the lack thereof- it has to do
> >>> : with them being Gentile and nothing more! This is racial and religious
> >>> : bigotry! (I have provided proof about the wine below.)
This is one of the stupidest things I have ever sen on Usenet - this moron debunks
*himself* in the same sentance! Just for laughs, I won't tell anyone which one it
is unless they e-mail me personally.
> >You don't let them touch it because you do not know if they are
> >idolators or not. This is especially the case with the come-back of
> >paganism. Wine is used in religious rituals in many cultures. If the
> >wine has been touched by a non-Jew (or a Jew who does is not observant
> >for that matter) then you have to assume, just to be safe, that it
> >might have had a blessing said over it dedicating it to some god other
> >than the one that Jews worship. We are forbidden from taking part in
> >any sort of idolatry hence we are forbidden from drinking wine that
> >has been touched by those who are suspect to taking part in idolatry.
> >This includes some Jews.
>
> Your cult establishes a moral dichotomy, and that's enough to see how damaging
> that can be to humanity. Enough!
>
> SUPPORT THE WAR AGAINST JUDEO-CHRISTIANITY
But you're not a bigot, right, and you have no moral dichotomoy, do you?
Susan Cohen
Fergus McClelland wrote:
> gra...@daveney.matra.com.au (Graham Daveney) wrote:
>
> >Being Jewish is a religious identity.
>
> Does that make Israel a religious State?
It is the Jewish State.
> >Why don't you run down to your nearest Catholic Church and complain to the
> >Priest there that he is a racist because he will not let you take a confessional.
>
> Why say "racist" if Jewishness is entirely a religion?
Because that's what Scott Bradbury is saying Jews are for making kashrus prohibitions against people
who don't observe the Sabbath (be they Jews or non-Jews). Graham wasn't making the accusation.
> >"But you are not a Catholic Priest", he would say.
> >
> >"Racist ! Racist ! Racist" you yell.
See?
> >You cannot touch the Jewish wine because you are not a Jew.
>
> All I hope is that I am not missing out on a good drink!
I, myself, hate alcohol, so I'm not one to judge...
> >If you want to touch the Jewish wine so much, then why don't you get off your
> >backside and convert and become a Jew ?
>
> I don't think he is that thirsty.
It would be funny to see, though...
> >: >however, I'll give
> >: >it a try....Kosher wine is just as sacred to Jews (observant ones) as the funny little
> >: >wafers called the host are to Catholics....you will find that Catholic doctrine and practice
> >: >forbid non-catholics from being in any way involved in the manufacture of said wafers...
>
> That I hadn't heard; a sort of Catholic Kosher production. I'm not
> saying you are wrong, but have you any proof for this?
Hmm, I've heard it, too, but have no proof either.
> It was my
> understanding that the wafers are only wafer until they are used in a
> service -which is when they become sacred, so, a packet of biscuits
> from the supermarket would suffice, whoever made it.
Aha, this is what we all meant - and it's been until only recently that even the *recipient*
couldn't touch it with their hands once it was consecrated. Now, *some* churches allow this, but I
guarantee you if a non-believer tried to touch it (or even another celebrant other than the on
before the priest) there'd Hell to pay (possibly literally! :-) )
> >There is no bigotry.
> >
> >If you want to take part in Jewish religious ceremonies then I suggest you
> >convert to Judaism and become a Jew.
>
> Many Christian sects allow non-members to take part in their services
> - though there are a few things I should imagine they would not be
> allowed to do. However, being born to Catholic parents would not
> automatically allow someone to take part in Communion.
I believe one has to be baptized a Catholic, confirmed, & then confessed, right?
(And you're talking about Christians getting communion, hearing mass, etc., in other churches, so
it's more a matter of denomination than basic beliefs - or do I err?)
> >Because they could touch the :
> >
> >whiskey
> >the beer
> >the vodka
> >the khaluah
>
> What's khaluah?
Kahlua? Isn't it that chocolately/mocha stuff?
> >: Are non-Jews unclean? Is this why they can't touch the bottle of wine
> >: after the seal is broken?
> >
> >No, because there is a fear that a non-Jew who worships idols could consecrate
> >the wine for idolatry.
>
> So why can't an atheist touch the wine then - or a Muslim who worships
> no idols, or an esoteric Buddhist who has only one God being and no
> physical representations of same?
For the same reason less-than-Orthodox Jews can't touch it, either: it's got to be someone who knows
about kashrus who therefore won't do anything wrong to accidentally contaminate the wine.
> >: 3) "We are not allowed to drink any wine or grape juice, or any drink
> >: containing wine or grape juice, which has been touched by a non Jew
> >: after the seal of the bottle has been opened."
> >:
> >: A repeat in general from above. Why aren't Jews allowed to drink if
> >: the seal has been broken and the wine is touched by a non-Jew?
> >
> >Because there is a fear that the non-Jew may consecrate the wine for the
> >worship of idols.
>
> Even atheists?
This is the original reason for the law, but it's been expanded to prevent this from happening.
> >: 4) " Non commercial bread and cake that is completely baked by an
> >: individual non-Jew is called pat akum and may not be eaten."
> >:
> >: I'm dying to hear you explain this bigotry too! Can you imagine the
> >: outrage by you if a web site had a something that said instead:
> >: "Non commercial bread and cake that is completely baked by an
> >: individual non-White is called pat akum and may not be eaten by a
> >: white." ? You'd be screaming racist bigot at the top of your lungs!
> >
> >Irrelevant.
>
> Not entirely. Though Susan, bless her, has explained some very valid
> reasons for this.
Oh, so you've caught my posts!
Should I repeat myself...?
> >Why don't you ask Catholics if non-Catholics can make the bread for communion.
>
> Can't they?
Maybe - but they certainly can't touch them after they've been consecrated!
> >: 5) "Certain foods which were completely cooked by a non-Jew (disbud
> >: akum) may not be eaten, even if the foods are kosher and are cooked in
> >: kosher utensils."
> >:
> >: How about this? Care to explain?
> >
> >There is a fear that the non-Jew out of ignorance of the laws of Jewish
> >eating could have done something inadvertently to make the food non-Kosher.
>
> Reasonable explanation.
(Which is where the "pat akum" thing above comes in)
> >Non-Jews being outside of the Jewish religion are not expected to know or care
> >about the intricacies of the Laws of Kashrut (Kosher).
>
> Agreed.
To say nothing of secular Jews who ain't too keen on it, either!
> >: 1.JEWISH PHYSIOLOGY The Gemara suggests that perhaps the Shichvas Zera
> >: of a non-Jew might have different properties from that of a Jew, since
> >: the non-Jews eat non-kosher foods and are physically affected by their
> >: diet. This has important ramifications.
> >
> >Irrelevant.
>
> No it isn't. It is taking the view that eating kosher purified, or at
> least prevents pollution, and that over generations Jews become
> "purer" as a result; a sort of spiritual Lysenkoism, breeding a Chosen
> race by what is eaten.
Oh, no! It's both more & less serious than that. It's suggesting that, like the nutritionists say,
you are what you eat, & since there is some differences in kosher & non-kosher foods, it might cause
a medical difference.
(Turns out that all the adrenaline in non-kosher meats is bad for you! And did you know that - in
the US - your non-kosher chicken could be tubercular & still pass USDA?)
> >: The CHASAM SOFER (Teshuvos YD 175) concludes that we cannot assume
> >: that a medical treatment that was tested successfully on a non-Jew
> >: will also be successful on a Jew. Therefore, if a Jewish woman always
> >: saw blood as a result of Tashmish, we cannot determine that a
> >: particular cure is reliable is reliable just because it was
> >: experimented successfully on non-Jews.
> >:
> >: How many of you (Non-Jews) are still holding out that Jews still view
> >: non-Jews as human beings. The material above almost looks like animal
> >: experimentation to me!
> >
> >Garbage.
>
> Agree with you here. It says different, not animals. Animals is said
> elsewhere but not in this statement.
>
> >It is talking about the effects of a Kosher and non-Kosher lifestyle.
> >
> >If this information was in any way damaging (which it isnt) why would Jews go
> >to such length to promote this information publically ?
>
> >: How many of you totally clueless Jews still have yet to figure why the
> >: majority of mankind has so thoroughly disliked you for thousands of
> >: years?
> >
> >Its called Jew Hatred.
>
> That's one of its names certainly.
>
> >Jew Hatred is all about a thorough committment to evil, and involves a satanic
> >style religion.
>
> I think not. It is all about a reaction to what is understood to be
> Judaism and attitudes of Jews.
Or what is trumped-up to be (Can't rule that out)
> There are times when it is absolutely
> stupid and indeed evil, but it is not some little idea thought up by
> one idiot, it is a widespread set of dislikes and distrusts, based on
> knowledge, ignorance, experience and personal preference. I am
> inoculated against it, but I can feel its wind.
>
> >The fact is that G-d's Chosen People keep G-d's Commandments that binds them
> >close to the Creator of the Universe and gives them incredible spiritual
> >powers.
>
> There you go, spouting religion in a way that looks racist, making
> trouble for yourself.
I hate to say it, I don't believe that whole thing myself (Do we get to bend spoons, or something?
Make the Statue of Liberty disappear?)
> To some, Christianity is God's chosen religion,
> being a shoot from Judaism, and therefore Christians are God's chosen
> people. However, you are speaking of an ethnicity, and are using the
> word Chosen in such a way that those not in the know will think you
> mean "Chosen as best" (which in a way you do) rather than "Chosen to
> serve," which is a far more acceptable concept to non-Jews.
And to Jews as well, seeing as how it's the truth.
> >The Jew Hater can sense this and is jealous.
>
> I should imagine he senses that you believe it and is annoyed. If he
> believed it, after all, he would be a believer in Judaism wouldn't he
> - which would make him a "sort-of" Jew would it not?
> >
> >It is the choice between good and evil.
>
> So you are saying that not being a Jew is evil!
I rather thought he was saying that Jew-hating was evil, but I'll let him clarify (He talks English
pretty good).
> >The Jews are G-d's Chosen People who's mission it is to keep G-d's Law.
>
> No, followers of Judaism believe that, non-believers don't. Can't you
> see that arrogance of the assertion? "We are teacher's pet - prefects
> of the almighty; and you lot came second and hate us for our
> specialness with him".
Well, its the arrogance assumed to be in the assumed meaning of that statement, but you've got a
major point.
> >The Jew Haters have chosen evil and want to destroy what is good in the world.
>
> Not all of them. Many just hate the elitist stuff you are spouting.
> Re-word it in an acceptable form.
If this would make the problem go away, I'm sure we'd all feel a lot better.
> >Their lives are twisted with hatred and evil.
>
> Some of them probably, as are the lives of some Jews I am sure.
I'd have to say that people who decide to hate Jews and make it their lives' work are measurably
more twisted with lies & hatred than the proportion of Jews are.
> >The fact is that when you take on G-d's Chosen People you are taking on G-d
> >Himself. Satan will give you great power in your pursuit of evil.
>
> Blimey!
Yes - *you* can bend spoons & go through the Great Wall of China!
> >The Jew Hater has become enamoured of an evil beauty that is Jew Hatred.
>
> See my responses to this simplistic stuff above.
Yeah, but he's not wrong ere. Waxing poetic, but not wrong.
> >Doc, its the choice between good and evil.
> >
> >Who's side are you on ?
>
> It seems Graham that you are saying you equal good and Doc equals
> evil.
Close enough.
> To my mind, Susan Cohen equals good, even when I disagree with
> her; the goodness shines out of her pale blue eyes.
("Green-gold, actually," she murmurs, blushing at the extravagant praise. "But don't let me
interrupt.")
> But you seem to be
> a simple-minded fanatic, and I find it hard to see a difference
> between your defences and Doc's attacks.
Well, Doc does tend to bring that out in people (Fire with fire, & all that)
BTW - how's Princess Margaret doing?
Susan Cohen
Fergus McClelland wrote:
> gra...@daveney.matra.com.au (Graham Daveney) wrote:
>
> >Being Jewish is a religious identity.
>
> Does that make Israel a religious State?
It is the Jewish State.
> >Why don't you run down to your nearest Catholic Church and complain to the
> >Priest there that he is a racist because he will not let you take a confessional.
>
> Why say "racist" if Jewishness is entirely a religion?
Because that's what Scott Bradbury is saying Jews are for making kashrus prohibitions against people
who don't observe the Sabbath (be they Jews or non-Jews). Graham wasn't making the accusation.
> >"But you are not a Catholic Priest", he would say.
> >
> >"Racist ! Racist ! Racist" you yell.
See?
> >You cannot touch the Jewish wine because you are not a Jew.
>
> All I hope is that I am not missing out on a good drink!
I, myself, hate alcohol, so I'm not one to judge...
> >If you want to touch the Jewish wine so much, then why don't you get off your
> >backside and convert and become a Jew ?
>
> I don't think he is that thirsty.
It would be funny to see, though...
> >: >however, I'll give
> >: >it a try....Kosher wine is just as sacred to Jews (observant ones) as the funny little
> >: >wafers called the host are to Catholics....you will find that Catholic doctrine and practice
> >: >forbid non-catholics from being in any way involved in the manufacture of said wafers...
>
> That I hadn't heard; a sort of Catholic Kosher production. I'm not
> saying you are wrong, but have you any proof for this?
Hmm, I've heard it, too, but have no proof either.
> It was my
> understanding that the wafers are only wafer until they are used in a
> service -which is when they become sacred, so, a packet of biscuits
> from the supermarket would suffice, whoever made it.
Aha, this is what we all meant - and it's been until only recently that even the *recipient*
couldn't touch it with their hands once it was consecrated. Now, *some* churches allow this, but I
guarantee you if a non-believer tried to touch it (or even another celebrant other than the on
before the priest) there'd Hell to pay (possibly literally! :-) )
> >There is no bigotry.
> >
> >If you want to take part in Jewish religious ceremonies then I suggest you
> >convert to Judaism and become a Jew.
>
> Many Christian sects allow non-members to take part in their services
> - though there are a few things I should imagine they would not be
> allowed to do. However, being born to Catholic parents would not
> automatically allow someone to take part in Communion.
I believe one has to be baptized a Catholic, confirmed, & then confessed, right?
(And you're talking about Christians getting communion, hearing mass, etc., in other churches, so
it's more a matter of denomination than basic beliefs - or do I err?)
> >Because they could touch the :
> >
> >whiskey
> >the beer
> >the vodka
> >the khaluah
>
> What's khaluah?
Kahlua? Isn't it that chocolately/mocha stuff?
> >: Are non-Jews unclean? Is this why they can't touch the bottle of wine
> >: after the seal is broken?
> >
> >No, because there is a fear that a non-Jew who worships idols could consecrate
> >the wine for idolatry.
>
> So why can't an atheist touch the wine then - or a Muslim who worships
> no idols, or an esoteric Buddhist who has only one God being and no
> physical representations of same?
For the same reason less-than-Orthodox Jews can't touch it, either: it's got to be someone who knows
about kashrus who therefore won't do anything wrong to accidentally contaminate the wine.
> >: 3) "We are not allowed to drink any wine or grape juice, or any drink
> >: containing wine or grape juice, which has been touched by a non Jew
> >: after the seal of the bottle has been opened."
> >:
> >: A repeat in general from above. Why aren't Jews allowed to drink if
> >: the seal has been broken and the wine is touched by a non-Jew?
> >
> >Because there is a fear that the non-Jew may consecrate the wine for the
> >worship of idols.
>
> Even atheists?
This is the original reason for the law, but it's been expanded to prevent this from happening.
> >: 4) " Non commercial bread and cake that is completely baked by an
> >: individual non-Jew is called pat akum and may not be eaten."
> >:
> >: I'm dying to hear you explain this bigotry too! Can you imagine the
> >: outrage by you if a web site had a something that said instead:
> >: "Non commercial bread and cake that is completely baked by an
> >: individual non-White is called pat akum and may not be eaten by a
> >: white." ? You'd be screaming racist bigot at the top of your lungs!
> >
> >Irrelevant.
>
> Not entirely. Though Susan, bless her, has explained some very valid
> reasons for this.
Oh, so you've caught my posts!
Should I repeat myself...?
> >Why don't you ask Catholics if non-Catholics can make the bread for communion.
>
> Can't they?
Maybe - but they certainly can't touch them after they've been consecrated!
> >: 5) "Certain foods which were completely cooked by a non-Jew (disbud
> >: akum) may not be eaten, even if the foods are kosher and are cooked in
> >: kosher utensils."
> >:
> >: How about this? Care to explain?
> >
> >There is a fear that the non-Jew out of ignorance of the laws of Jewish
> >eating could have done something inadvertently to make the food non-Kosher.
>
> Reasonable explanation.
(Which is where the "pat akum" thing above comes in)
> >Non-Jews being outside of the Jewish religion are not expected to know or care
> >about the intricacies of the Laws of Kashrut (Kosher).
>
> Agreed.
To say nothing of secular Jews who ain't too keen on it, either!
> >: 1.JEWISH PHYSIOLOGY The Gemara suggests that perhaps the Shichvas Zera
> >: of a non-Jew might have different properties from that of a Jew, since
> >: the non-Jews eat non-kosher foods and are physically affected by their
> >: diet. This has important ramifications.
> >
> >Irrelevant.
>
> No it isn't. It is taking the view that eating kosher purified, or at
> least prevents pollution, and that over generations Jews become
> "purer" as a result; a sort of spiritual Lysenkoism, breeding a Chosen
> race by what is eaten.
Oh, no! It's both more & less serious than that. It's suggesting that, like the nutritionists say,
you are what you eat, & since there is some differences in kosher & non-kosher foods, it might cause
a medical difference.
(Turns out that all the adrenaline in non-kosher meats is bad for you! And did you know that - in
the US - your non-kosher chicken could be tubercular & still pass USDA?)
> >: The CHASAM SOFER (Teshuvos YD 175) concludes that we cannot assume
> >: that a medical treatment that was tested successfully on a non-Jew
> >: will also be successful on a Jew. Therefore, if a Jewish woman always
> >: saw blood as a result of Tashmish, we cannot determine that a
> >: particular cure is reliable is reliable just because it was
> >: experimented successfully on non-Jews.
> >:
> >: How many of you (Non-Jews) are still holding out that Jews still view
> >: non-Jews as human beings. The material above almost looks like animal
> >: experimentation to me!
> >
> >Garbage.
>
> Agree with you here. It says different, not animals. Animals is said
> elsewhere but not in this statement.
>
> >It is talking about the effects of a Kosher and non-Kosher lifestyle.
> >
> >If this information was in any way damaging (which it isnt) why would Jews go
> >to such length to promote this information publically ?
>
> >: How many of you totally clueless Jews still have yet to figure why the
> >: majority of mankind has so thoroughly disliked you for thousands of
> >: years?
> >
> >Its called Jew Hatred.
>
> That's one of its names certainly.
>
> >Jew Hatred is all about a thorough committment to evil, and involves a satanic
> >style religion.
>
> I think not. It is all about a reaction to what is understood to be
> Judaism and attitudes of Jews.
Or what is trumped-up to be (Can't rule that out)
> There are times when it is absolutely
> stupid and indeed evil, but it is not some little idea thought up by
> one idiot, it is a widespread set of dislikes and distrusts, based on
> knowledge, ignorance, experience and personal preference. I am
> inoculated against it, but I can feel its wind.
>
> >The fact is that G-d's Chosen People keep G-d's Commandments that binds them
> >close to the Creator of the Universe and gives them incredible spiritual
> >powers.
>
> There you go, spouting religion in a way that looks racist, making
> trouble for yourself.
I hate to say it, I don't believe that whole thing myself (Do we get to bend spoons, or something?
Make the Statue of Liberty disappear?)
> To some, Christianity is God's chosen religion,
> being a shoot from Judaism, and therefore Christians are God's chosen
> people. However, you are speaking of an ethnicity, and are using the
> word Chosen in such a way that those not in the know will think you
> mean "Chosen as best" (which in a way you do) rather than "Chosen to
> serve," which is a far more acceptable concept to non-Jews.
And to Jews as well, seeing as how it's the truth.
> >The Jew Hater can sense this and is jealous.
>
> I should imagine he senses that you believe it and is annoyed. If he
> believed it, after all, he would be a believer in Judaism wouldn't he
> - which would make him a "sort-of" Jew would it not?
> >
> >It is the choice between good and evil.
>
> So you are saying that not being a Jew is evil!
I rather thought he was saying that Jew-hating was evil, but I'll let him clarify (He talks English
pretty good).
> >The Jews are G-d's Chosen People who's mission it is to keep G-d's Law.
>
> No, followers of Judaism believe that, non-believers don't. Can't you
> see that arrogance of the assertion? "We are teacher's pet - prefects
> of the almighty; and you lot came second and hate us for our
> specialness with him".
Well, its the arrogance assumed to be in the assumed meaning of that statement, but you've got a
major point.
> >The Jew Haters have chosen evil and want to destroy what is good in the world.
>
> Not all of them. Many just hate the elitist stuff you are spouting.
> Re-word it in an acceptable form.
If this would make the problem go away, I'm sure we'd all feel a lot better.
> >Their lives are twisted with hatred and evil.
>
> Some of them probably, as are the lives of some Jews I am sure.
I'd have to say that people who decide to hate Jews and make it their lives' work are measurably
more twisted with lies & hatred than the proportion of Jews are.
> >The fact is that when you take on G-d's Chosen People you are taking on G-d
> >Himself. Satan will give you great power in your pursuit of evil.
>
> Blimey!
Yes - *you* can bend spoons & go through the Great Wall of China!
> >The Jew Hater has become enamoured of an evil beauty that is Jew Hatred.
>
> See my responses to this simplistic stuff above.
Yeah, but he's not wrong ere. Waxing poetic, but not wrong.
> >Doc, its the choice between good and evil.
> >
> >Who's side are you on ?
>
> It seems Graham that you are saying you equal good and Doc equals
> evil.
Close enough.
> To my mind, Susan Cohen equals good, even when I disagree with
> her; the goodness shines out of her pale blue eyes.
("Green-gold, actually," she murmurs, blushing at the extravagant praise. "But don't let me
interrupt.")
> But you seem to be
> a simple-minded fanatic, and I find it hard to see a difference
> between your defences and Doc's attacks.
Well, Doc does tend to bring that out in people (Fire with fire, & all that)
Elie Karkar
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Susan Cohen wrote in message <34FBACD9...@smart.net>...
Dax
Jews ARE bigots and racist. They are the chosen people. Is'nt that what the
nazis claim. But thats different,rightttttt.
Elie Karkar wrote in message ...
Elie Karkar
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Dax wrote in message ...
Fergus McClelland
Susan Cohen <ze...@smart.net> wrote:
>Fergus McClelland wrote:
>
>> gra...@daveney.matra.com.au (Graham Daveney) wrote:
>>
>> >Being Jewish is a religious identity.
>>
>> Does that make Israel a religious State?
>
>It is the Jewish State.
What is a "Jewish State"?
>
>> >Why don't you run down to your nearest Catholic Church and complain to the
>> >Priest there that he is a racist because he will not let you take a confessional.
>>
>> Why say "racist" if Jewishness is entirely a religion?
>
>Because that's what Scott Bradbury is saying Jews are for making kashrus prohibitions against people
>who don't observe the Sabbath (be they Jews or non-Jews). Graham wasn't making the accusation.
>
>> >"But you are not a Catholic Priest", he would say.
>> >
>> >"Racist ! Racist ! Racist" you yell.
>
>See?
Okay, thanks.
>
>> >You cannot touch the Jewish wine because you are not a Jew.
>>
>> All I hope is that I am not missing out on a good drink!
>
>I, myself, hate alcohol, so I'm not one to judge...
One day you will show a vice and we will all sigh with relief:-)(Well,
actually, some will shout with joy and pounce upon it).
snip
<About only Catholics being able to make wafers>
>> That I hadn't heard; a sort of Catholic Kosher production. I'm not
>> saying you are wrong, but have you any proof for this?
>
>Hmm, I've heard it, too, but have no proof either.
>
>> It was my
>> understanding that the wafers are only wafer until they are used in a
>> service -which is when they become sacred, so, a packet of biscuits
>> from the supermarket would suffice, whoever made it.
>
>Aha, this is what we all meant - and it's been until only recently that even the *recipient*
>couldn't touch it with their hands once it was consecrated. Now, *some* churches allow this, but I
>guarantee you if a non-believer tried to touch it (or even another celebrant other than the on
>before the priest) there'd Hell to pay (possibly literally! :-) )
I can't judge - not having been in the position to see a non-believer
touch the wafer. I think it would depend on how it was done and in
what country's Catholic church it was done. I mean, if an identifiable
by dress or behaviour Jew, Sikh, Hindu or Muslim walked into a
Catholic church in Spain and grabbed the wafer and ate it, I imagine
he would receive some sort of physical rebuff from some of the
congregants. However, if he did it in England, there would be an
embarrassed silence as he swallowed and walked out - followed by much
indignation and cries of "shocking behaviour!".
>> >There is no bigotry.
>> >
>> >If you want to take part in Jewish religious ceremonies then I suggest you
>> >convert to Judaism and become a Jew.
>>
>> Many Christian sects allow non-members to take part in their services
>> - though there are a few things I should imagine they would not be
>> allowed to do. However, being born to Catholic parents would not
>> automatically allow someone to take part in Communion.
>
>I believe one has to be baptized a Catholic, confirmed, & then confessed, right?
To take Communion yes, but not to be present all through all the
services.
>
>(And you're talking about Christians getting communion, hearing mass, etc., in other churches, so
>it's more a matter of denomination than basic beliefs - or do I err?)
Communion is practiced by a few non-Catholics branches of
Christianity, and very few call their services Masses. If that answers
your question?
snip
>Kahlua? Isn't it that chocolately/mocha stuff?
No idea.
>
>> >: Are non-Jews unclean? Is this why they can't touch the bottle of wine
>> >: after the seal is broken?
>> >
>> >No, because there is a fear that a non-Jew who worships idols could consecrate
>> >the wine for idolatry.
>>
>> So why can't an atheist touch the wine then - or a Muslim who worships
>> no idols, or an esoteric Buddhist who has only one God being and no
>> physical representations of same?
>
>For the same reason less-than-Orthodox Jews can't touch it, either: it's got to be someone who knows
>about kashrus who therefore won't do anything wrong to accidentally contaminate the wine.
So, are you saying that non-Orthodox Jews - Reform, Conservative,
Liberal etc, cannot touch this Jewish wine? If so, what do they drink?
And, can a non-Jew touch their drink?
>
>> >: 3) "We are not allowed to drink any wine or grape juice, or any drink
>> >: containing wine or grape juice, which has been touched by a non Jew
>> >: after the seal of the bottle has been opened."
>> >:
>> >: A repeat in general from above. Why aren't Jews allowed to drink if
>> >: the seal has been broken and the wine is touched by a non-Jew?
>> >
>> >Because there is a fear that the non-Jew may consecrate the wine for the
>> >worship of idols.
>>
>> Even atheists?
>
>This is the original reason for the law, but it's been expanded to prevent this from happening.
I think I see. Originally the reason for the exclusivity of use was to
prevent it being used for the celebration of idols - perhaps because
of the Bacchus cult of Roman times - but now is just a "for the Jews
and no-one else" sort of thing?
>> >: 4) " Non commercial bread and cake that is completely baked by an
>> >: individual non-Jew is called pat akum and may not be eaten."
>> >:
>> >: I'm dying to hear you explain this bigotry too! Can you imagine the
>> >: outrage by you if a web site had a something that said instead:
>> >: "Non commercial bread and cake that is completely baked by an
>> >: individual non-White is called pat akum and may not be eaten by a
>> >: white." ? You'd be screaming racist bigot at the top of your lungs!
>> >
>> >Irrelevant.
>>
>> Not entirely. Though Susan, bless her, has explained some very valid
>> reasons for this.
>
>Oh, so you've caught my posts!
Whenever possible!
>Should I repeat myself...?
You did - there are two copies of this by you on my server:-)
>
>> >Why don't you ask Catholics if non-Catholics can make the bread for communion.
>>
>> Can't they?
>
>Maybe - but they certainly can't touch them after they've been consecrated!
Ah, but this is a spiritual moment actually at the altar and lasts
moments - not the same as manufacture days or months before. Granted
you say it is because it may be polluted in production; but that
leaves out the idea of a non-Jew touching it in a packet. Can a
non-Jew touch a packet of Kosher bread - but not the bread inside? If
so, are we just talking hygiene here - or are we talking of the
unGodly nature of non-Jews?
>
>> >: 5) "Certain foods which were completely cooked by a non-Jew (disbud
>> >: akum) may not be eaten, even if the foods are kosher and are cooked in
>> >: kosher utensils."
>> >:
>> >: How about this? Care to explain?
>> >
>> >There is a fear that the non-Jew out of ignorance of the laws of Jewish
>> >eating could have done something inadvertently to make the food non-Kosher.
>>
>> Reasonable explanation.
>
>(Which is where the "pat akum" thing above comes in)
I find it interesting that it is only certain foods. Were it all foods
it would point to the "ungodly Goyim" I referred to above. As it is
not all food, it points elsewhere - perhaps.
>
>> >Non-Jews being outside of the Jewish religion are not expected to know or care
>> >about the intricacies of the Laws of Kashrut (Kosher).
>>
>> Agreed.
>
>To say nothing of secular Jews who ain't too keen on it, either!
"Secular Jews" Susan? Is that the same as "Atheist Catholics"?
>> >: 1.JEWISH PHYSIOLOGY The Gemara suggests that perhaps the Shichvas Zera
>> >: of a non-Jew might have different properties from that of a Jew, since
>> >: the non-Jews eat non-kosher foods and are physically affected by their
>> >: diet. This has important ramifications.
>> >
>> >Irrelevant.
>>
>> No it isn't. It is taking the view that eating kosher purified, or at
>> least prevents pollution, and that over generations Jews become
>> "purer" as a result; a sort of spiritual Lysenkoism, breeding a Chosen
>> race by what is eaten.
>
>Oh, no! It's both more & less serious than that. It's suggesting that, like the nutritionists say,
>you are what you eat, & since there is some differences in kosher & non-kosher foods, it might cause
>a medical difference.
>
>(Turns out that all the adrenaline in non-kosher meats is bad for you!
The adrenaline level in meat is altered by the state of mind of the
animal at the time it is killed. Fear or pain in an animal about to be
slaughtered releases large amounts of adrenaline - and other stress
compounds into the bloodstream - where it is quickly carried around
the body and deposited in muscles readying them for "fight or flight".
So, if you bleed an animal to death it will produce a great deal of
adrenaline.
I agree that you are what you eat though - although I don't think
enough is known to lay down laws about what to eat in all
circumstances. For example, can a Jew eat Penguin, Duck-billed
Platypus, Koala or Kangaroo? If the ancient books of Judaism said:
"There is type of animal in a far away land which carries its young in
a pouch, you can't eat it", I would be impressed.
> And did you know that - in
>the US - your non-kosher chicken could be tubercular & still pass USDA?)
That doesn't surprise me. The way food animals are produced in
factories is, to me, disgusting.
>> >: The CHASAM SOFER (Teshuvos YD 175) concludes that we cannot assume
>> >: that a medical treatment that was tested successfully on a non-Jew
>> >: will also be successful on a Jew. Therefore, if a Jewish woman always
>> >: saw blood as a result of Tashmish, we cannot determine that a
>> >: particular cure is reliable is reliable just because it was
>> >: experimented successfully on non-Jews.
>> >:
>> >: How many of you (Non-Jews) are still holding out that Jews still view
>> >: non-Jews as human beings. The material above almost looks like animal
>> >: experimentation to me!
>> >
>> >Garbage.
>>
>> Agree with you here. It says different, not animals. Animals is said
>> elsewhere but not in this statement.
>>
>> >It is talking about the effects of a Kosher and non-Kosher lifestyle.
A bit like talking about vegetarianism?
>> >If this information was in any way damaging (which it isnt) why would Jews go
>> >to such length to promote this information publically ?
>>
>> >: How many of you totally clueless Jews still have yet to figure why the
>> >: majority of mankind has so thoroughly disliked you for thousands of
>> >: years?
>> >
>> >Its called Jew Hatred.
>>
>> That's one of its names certainly.
>>
>> >Jew Hatred is all about a thorough committment to evil, and involves a satanic
>> >style religion.
>>
>> I think not. It is all about a reaction to what is understood to be
>> Judaism and attitudes of Jews.
>
>Or what is trumped-up to be (Can't rule that out)
Sorry. Change of word: It is about a reaction to what is _perceived_
to be Judaism and attitudes of Jews.
>
>> There are times when it is absolutely
>> stupid and indeed evil, but it is not some little idea thought up by
>> one idiot, it is a widespread set of dislikes and distrusts, based on
>> knowledge, ignorance, experience and personal preference. I am
>> inoculated against it, but I can feel its wind.
>>
>> >The fact is that G-d's Chosen People keep G-d's Commandments that binds them
>> >close to the Creator of the Universe and gives them incredible spiritual
>> >powers.
>>
>> There you go, spouting religion in a way that looks racist, making
>> trouble for yourself.
>
>I hate to say it, I don't believe that whole thing myself (Do we get to bend spoons, or something?
>Make the Statue of Liberty disappear?)
Susan, you know you bend my spoons every time you post!
>> To some, Christianity is God's chosen religion,
>> being a shoot from Judaism, and therefore Christians are God's chosen
>> people. However, you are speaking of an ethnicity, and are using the
>> word Chosen in such a way that those not in the know will think you
>> mean "Chosen as best" (which in a way you do) rather than "Chosen to
>> serve," which is a far more acceptable concept to non-Jews.
>
>And to Jews as well, seeing as how it's the truth.
So he will have to be more careful in his wording.
>
>> >The Jew Hater can sense this and is jealous.
>>
>> I should imagine he senses that you believe it and is annoyed. If he
>> believed it, after all, he would be a believer in Judaism wouldn't he
>> - which would make him a "sort-of" Jew would it not?
>> >
>> >It is the choice between good and evil.
>>
>> So you are saying that not being a Jew is evil!
>
>I rather thought he was saying that Jew-hating was evil, but I'll let him clarify (He talks English
>pretty good).
No he doesn't, he rants. You "talk English good" though - and
prettily.
>> >The Jews are G-d's Chosen People who's mission it is to keep G-d's Law.
>>
>> No, followers of Judaism believe that, non-believers don't. Can't you
>> see that arrogance of the assertion? "We are teacher's pet - prefects
>> of the almighty; and you lot came second and hate us for our
>> specialness with him".
>
>Well, its the arrogance assumed to be in the assumed meaning of that statement, but you've got a
>major point.
Thanks.
>> >The Jew Haters have chosen evil and want to destroy what is good in the world.
>>
>> Not all of them. Many just hate the elitist stuff you are spouting.
>> Re-word it in an acceptable form.
>
>If this would make the problem go away, I'm sure we'd all feel a lot better.
To a large extent it probably would make the problem go away. Graham,
I suspect will say "Why should I? Why should I bend to the goyim who
hate us spiritually and physically, (because of our food), superior
beings?" The answer being given by a look down the bloody corridor of
Jewish history.
>> >Their lives are twisted with hatred and evil.
>>
>> Some of them probably, as are the lives of some Jews I am sure.
>
>I'd have to say that people who decide to hate Jews and make it their lives' work are measurably
>more twisted with lies & hatred than the proportion of Jews are.
Whilst agreeing with what I think you are saying here, I would have to
say that Jews who hate non-Jews and make it their lives' work are
measurably more twisted with lies and hate than the major proportion
of non-Jews are.
>> >The fact is that when you take on G-d's Chosen People you are taking on G-d
>> >Himself. Satan will give you great power in your pursuit of evil.
>>
>> Blimey!
>
>Yes - *you* can bend spoons & go through the Great Wall of China!
Can you fix my old watch strap from there Susan?:-)
>> >The Jew Hater has become enamoured of an evil beauty that is Jew Hatred.
>>
>> See my responses to this simplistic stuff above.
>
>Yeah, but he's not wrong ere. Waxing poetic, but not wrong.
I think he is. Unless you use the some religiously emotional words
like "evil" to describe certain Jews who seem to hate non-Jews.
>> >Doc, its the choice between good and evil.
>> >
>> >Who's side are you on ?
>>
>> It seems Graham that you are saying you equal good and Doc equals
>> evil.
>
>Close enough.
I see no difference between Graham's shouting at Doc T and Doc T's
shouting at Graham, with the difference that Doc T is using Jewish
writings to back his arguments (whether he correctly understands them
or not) and Graham is using the "Because I say so" defence/attack to
battle him with. You, Susan, by explaining and describing Jewish
writings are _not_ in the same line at all.
>> To my mind, Susan Cohen equals good, even when I disagree with
>> her; the goodness shines out of her pale blue eyes.
>
>("Green-gold, actually," she murmurs, blushing at the extravagant praise. "But don't let me
>interrupt.")
Gulp. Pardon me while I take a little rest - and a cold shower.
Sound of Fergus walking away from the computer singing into the
distance:"Were I laid on Greenland's coast.....:-)"
Right. Better now. To continue.
>> But you seem to be
>> a simple-minded fanatic, and I find it hard to see a difference
>> between your defences and Doc's attacks.
>
>Well, Doc does tend to bring that out in people (Fire with fire, & all that)
Not always the best policy. Water is usually more effective.
If I may sum up?
Susan and I first met with an argument about the fate of some Jews in
England in the year 1190 AD. At first our debate was heated - but it
did not remain that way. I give credit for that to both of us.
If Graham wants to make the world a better, safer place for Jews; does
he think he will achieve that by shouting at non-Jews on the internet
and saying that Jews are magically superior by virtue of their food
preparations (a new thing developed over a few hundred years for
political reasons) and religious observances - plus connection to God
above any connection by non-Jews? In what way is that different from
an "Aryan" saying that he is in some way superior to Graham? How will
a non-Jewish onlooker be convinced of Graham's arguments when Graham
exhibits such extremism in ways that the onlooker does not believe?
Susan, on the other hand, though she can rant with the best, (or
worst) of them, (and, I think, thereby gets into arguments she
thoroughly deserves!) sometimes explains things and an innocence rings
in her tones. As I've said before; I like sweet Susan - as revealed on
the internet. Were she not a happily-married committed Jew I would
probably dream about her!
>BTW - how's Princess Margaret doing?
Gone home, getting better. Thanks for asking.
BTW - did you get any of those "White Power" CD's I told you about?:-)
Posted & e-mailed
danie...@yahoo.com
Come on--I'm a Christian Gentile, and I don't have a problem with this.
In Bali, my wife and I were gently warned not to touch the idols by the
natives. Catholics won't let me take communion with them, even though I am
a Biblical, born-again Christian. In central Java, they won't let me go
into one of their temples without a special belt because they believe that
demons will attack you without that belt.
Frankly, if someone were to offer me an occultic object or idol in my house,
I would kindly, gently, and respectfully explain why the object should be
burned, and I would pray and do spiritual warfare to bind spirits associated
with that object whether it be an Ouija board, tarrot cards, idol, book,
or whatever.
When the Jews do not allow others to touch their wine, for instance, their
message is not that Gentiles are untouchable slime, but that there is a
real spiritual danger in idolatry and that that spiritual influence could
possibly be passed from person to person. Their belief and mine is that God
alone should be worshipped and that idols are not to be created or worshipped.
Personally, I am not so concerned about who touches my food or drink as I
am over what sorts of messages and spiritual influence is brought into my
home to my wife and children. Generally, most folks are more afraid of me
than I am of them. My home and my parents home sometimes get blacklisted
when Mormons or Jehovah's Witnesses come by to convert us and find that we
end up stripping them of their arguments and bringing them to the place where
we are pressing them for a committement to Christ right in our house. I'll
share with and lay hands on and pray for a person desiring to be free from
the bondage of the occult, and then I'll pray a hedge of protection over my
family and friends lest any revenge be sought. I can be friends with these
folks if they'll have me. We can cook pork chops together or eat kosher
foods, and I'm fine. I feel that humans are all precious and in need of the
Lord and that our real enemies are spirits and our own sin.
So, my ways and beliefs are a bit different than the Jews in some ways, but
I see where they are coming from, and I don't think it is any sign of
arrogance on their part but rather their desire to be faithful to God. And,
I honor them for this.
In article <34FBACD9...@smart.net>,
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/ Now offering spam-free web-based newsreading
George Johnson
re...@nospam.perdrix.demon.co.uk (Fergus McClelland) wrote:
>Susan Cohen <ze...@smart.net> wrote:
>>Fergus McClelland wrote:
>>> gra...@daveney.matra.com.au (Graham Daveney) wrote:
>>> >: Are non-Jews unclean? Is this why they can't touch the bottle of wine
>>> >: after the seal is broken?
non-Catholic touch the bottle after the seal is broken?
If the person is a Jew who converted to Catholicism then is that
permissable by everybody?
If the child of a Conservative Jewish father and a Catholic mother
converted to Reform Judaism, whose wine could he/she touch?
But, what if the wine is only ring-U in each case?
I have heard that more liberal Catholic bishops are allowing a little
peanut butter and jelly on the wafers.
Fergus McClelland
gj2...@mindspring.com (George Johnson) wrote:
>re...@nospam.perdrix.demon.co.uk (Fergus McClelland) wrote:
There are no words of mine in the post below.
>>Susan Cohen <ze...@smart.net> wrote:
Nor, I think, are any of Susan Cohen's words below.
>>>Fergus McClelland wrote:
>>>> gra...@daveney.matra.com.au (Graham Daveney) wrote:
>
>>>> >: Are non-Jews unclean? Is this why they can't touch the bottle of wine
>>>> >: after the seal is broken?
Susan Cohen
What a terrific post for Adar! Funny, but I wouldn't have thought anyone named
"Johnson" would be Jewish, or even in tune with Jewish culture to know just when
to post such a hilarity. I love being pleasantly surprised.
George Johnson wrote:
> re...@nospam.perdrix.demon.co.uk (Fergus McClelland) wrote:
> >Susan Cohen <ze...@smart.net> wrote:
> >>Fergus McClelland wrote:
> >>> gra...@daveney.matra.com.au (Graham Daveney) wrote:
>
> >>> >: Are non-Jews unclean? Is this why they can't touch the bottle of wine
> >>> >: after the seal is broken?
Gunther Schiller
Foreword: What you are about to see is a foremost example of bigotry.
Bigotry that largely goes unnoticed by the world in general but I am
now pointing it out. There are two disgusting forms of bigotry
displayed below and they are religious and racial bigotry!
Verify every word using the click link. How can this bigotry be
excused? It can't be excused but many will try. Pay very close
attention about what is aid at the end. If whites were to speak in
this manner concerning blacks or if whites were to deprive blacks of
similar employment then the Federal Government would intervene! Why
aren't discrimination suits being filed?
Link was active 2/5/98
http://kedemwines.com/kosher.htm
"What Makes Wine Kosher?"
Wine is a product which holds special meaning to many Jewish people.
As indicated by Jewish tradition, wine is present at Sabbath and
Holiday tables in order to say the Kiddush and increase the festivity.
Family celebration from circumcisions to weddings are enhanced by the
usage of wine as an integral part of the ceremony. A jubilant
"L'chaim", is shouted as Jews worldwide raise wine glasses aloft to
celebrate the miracle and blessing of life bestowed upon us by G-d. It
goes without saying that the wine used at these occasions should be
strictly Kosher. But just what does that mean?
Common knowledge may insist that the dubious distinction of Kosher
wine is related to the blessing of a rabbi. Past experience may
dictate that Kosher wines must be sweet and sticky in order to be
Kosher. However, this is not at all the case.
A simple definition of Kosher, is a food prepared in accordance with
Jewish dietary laws. Since Kosher law does not prohibit the use of
specific wine styles, grape varieties, or origin, any wine made in
accordance to these laws can be Kosher. This explains the
"surprisingly" large variety of Kosher wines available from New York,
California, France, Israel and Italy.
Kosher law for preparing wine, entails the following points:
1.Equipment used to make the wine are used exclusively for the
production of Kosher products.
2.The grapes and wine can be handled only by Sabbath observant Jews
from grape crushing to consumption, unless the wine is Mevushal
(pasteurized).
3.Only certified kosher products (yeast, filtering agents, etc.) can
be used.
The origin of the laws regarding handling by non-Jews stems from the
Torah, as a way of preventing intermarriage. Socializing with the wine
of non-Jews may lead to this eventuality. Therefore, as a safety
precaution, this prohibition was extended to wine touched by a
non-Jew.