Nepal: Problems...

Rupesh Pradhan

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Oct 23, 1997, 3:00:00 AM10/23/97

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Sainju-ji,

Do our hearts beat because we live? Or do we live because our
hearts beat? Does the government/political institutions in Nepal suck
because there are no "right attitude" gentlemen in Nepal? Or are there no
"right attitude" gentlemen in Nepal because the government/political
institutions suck?

I don't think we can NOT solve one problem BEFORE the other. And if you
wish that politics, government, education, environment and every god damn
thing in Nepal would straighten themselves out before the yet elusive
Nepali "manpower" can utilize its almighty "vision/attitude", then --at
this auspicipous time of Dashain and Tihar-- let me give you my aashirbad,
"Chiiiranjibi Bhayesh (Have a long life)!" You will need every second of
it.

:)

S. M. Sainju

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Oct 23, 1997, 3:00:00 AM10/23/97

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rupesh pradhan ji,

i profoundly appreciate your aashirbad. and muri muri dhanyabad to you.
lemme just say this:

which one seems to be more precise? Teachers did not teach well or students
did not do their homework?? for me students are like a model. they can be
turned into anyform (with some exceptions of kukur ko puchhar 12 barsa
dhungro ma rakhe pani banga ko bangai).

in case of heart vs. living, i wish i knew it. it is like the story of
chicken and egg. which one came first? regarding the government and people. i
think i would lean more toward government. because they are the ones to set
rules and regulations and we are supposed to follow them accordingly. i did
not say people in nepal are all dorks. there are many wise people in nepal.
many of them are outside nepal ( and it is absolutely okay). few of them are
in nepal. i think if they are given the opportunity to run the country, it
can make a significant difference out there (this is my opinion, you don't
have to agree with this).
my philosophy is we eat to live. we don't live to eat. i agree 100 % with
sandai's latest posting. but it seems to me that our so called leaders are
nothing but power hungry. well there is a pattern everyone can see what's
been happening over the last seven eight years. i guess you can buy that.

everybody is equally responsible but i think whoever is in the government,
they have more responsibilities than do others. they chose to be there and
they should do their homework and we should not hesitate to give a big F if
they don't do their homework.

ss

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rupesh pradhan ji,

i profoundly appreciate your aashirbad.  and muri muri dhanyabad
to you.  lemme just say this:

which one seems to be more precise? Teachers did not teach well or students
did not do their homework?? for me students are like a model. they can
be turned into anyform (with some exceptions of kukur ko puchhar 12 barsa
dhungro ma rakhe pani banga ko bangai).

in case of heart vs. living, i wish i knew it. it is like the story
of chicken and egg. which one came first? regarding the government and
people. i think i would lean more toward government. because they are the
ones to set rules and regulations and we are supposed to follow them accordingly.
i did not say people in nepal are all dorks. there are many wise people
in nepal.  many of them are outside nepal ( and it is absolutely okay).
few of them are in nepal.  i think if they are given the opportunity
to run the country, it can make a significant difference out there (this
is my opinion, you don't have to agree with this). 
 my philosophy is we eat to live. we don't live to eat.  i agree
100 % with sandai's latest posting.   but it seems to me that
our so called leaders are nothing but power hungry. well there is a pattern
everyone can see what's been happening over the last seven eight years. 
i guess you can buy that.

everybody is equally responsible but i think whoever is in the government,
they have more responsibilities than do others. they chose to be there
and they should do their homework and we should not hesitate to give a
big F if they don't do their homework.

ss
<PRE></PRE>

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Rupesh Pradhan

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Oct 24, 1997, 3:00:00 AM10/24/97

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Summary for those who don't want to read this long posting:

"The lack of well established business institution is a greater hurdle to
development in Nepal than the lack of well established political
institution. Cleaner, dedicated politicians may help, but what we really
need is more "marwaris" who can add to the economic dynamism of the
country."

___________________

Having argued in my earlier posting that a clean and stable government is
neither a necessary nor a sufficient condition for economic development,
let me try to put this whole thing in perspective. When i argue that it is
ultimately the people (not just the government), what I mean is that
development ultimately has to go hand in hand with the institutions that
people build.

Sure political institution (namely the government structure etc.) is
important, but what is more important for ECONOMIC development is Business
Institution. And that Nepal lacks terribly.

Let me differentiate Business Institution from business organizations,
just to avoid confusion. Business organizations are just simply for-profit
commercial organizations like Ram Bhandar, Surya Tobacco, Muncha House,
Sandar Fivestar Momo etc. Business Institution is a more general and
abstract term that encompasses social attitude, functioning, structure of
businesses.

Last year, while researching in Nepal on the businesses there for one
of my weekly columns in the Kathmandu Post, I noted something we all know
but have never given a serious thought. Virtually ALL the big
entrepreneurial businesses in Nepal are owned by two jats: the Marwaris
and the Newars (primarily the Buddhist newars such as the Sakyas, the
Tuladhars etc.) There were some Thakalis (notably the Sherchans --most of
whom were from the same extended family).

This is not an accident! It has roots in our general attitude toward
entrepreneurship. We need to change that...

Except in these traditional business oriented jats, we have very little
"respect" for entrepreneurs. It's better to be a jagire and expect Sarkar
will provide for your Rs2500 a month than be a Pasale and earn Rs5000. I
speak from experience because I myself belong to one of those
traditionally non-entreprenereul families....Too many times I have seen
young energetic intelligent members of my extended family waste their
lives sitting around over a hot cup of tea in some government office.

And I don't want to blame the government for not utilizing these young
talents. I blame these young talents for not doing so themselves. We love
the "ghumne mech" of a hakim-saa'b more than the hard-matted "aasan" of a
marwari. Contrast this to the US, for example.

Of course changing this lack-of-respect toward businessmen and
entrepreneurs is going to be a long fight. (Who said developing Nepal was
going to be easy?) But the only way to fight this deep-rooted tradition is
at a personal level.

I will give two examples of such heroic fighters. I don't want to write
their names without getting their explicit permission. But anyway. One of
them went back to Nepal after acquiring an MBA. He could have easily
commanded a six figure salary from some Wall Street firm. But he decided
to go back and start up a "Finance Company" with only a couple of
thousand dollars of his own money, and few more from his friends. This was
just some five years ago....I am sure he knew things usually stink in
Nepal. Nonetheless he wanted to give it a try. His company has now more
than thirty employees...and moreover following his lead, Nepal now has
more than fifteen other finance companies!

While we complained loudly that government in Nepal sucked, he went their
quietly and contributed more to Nepal's development than anyone else has
done such a short time! INSPITE of the government.

Another example is this guy who went back to Nepal in 1996 after living in
US for 8 years. He wanted to go there and open a fast food chain
...similar to McDonalds'...but only he would serve our favorite Mo Mo. He
opened his first store outside Kumari Hall and called it (what else!)
"Five Star Mo Mo". In the beginning everybody made fun of him. Here is
this sophisticated guy who lived in the US for eight years, and he is back
in nepal to open a Rs10 per plate mo mo pasal! (Why can't he work for the
World Bank or something?) Within six months of his first store...he had
opened four more in Kathmandu with a daily turnover of tens of thousands
of rupees.

There are more examples....but not enough!

What we need in nepal is more of these types...who INSPITE of a screwed up
political system, will continue to exploit the economic (and perhaps
other) opportunities. We need more entrepreneurs...we need more "marwaris"
who can start industries and provide the dynamism that a vibrant
commercial environment can. While governments can help to some extent, the
real thrust has to come from the business institution.

Rupesh Pradhan

Anil Tuladhar

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Oct 24, 1997, 3:00:00 AM10/24/97

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S. M. Sainju (ssa...@cs.nmt.edu) wrote:

: everybody is equally responsible but i think whoever is in the government,

: they have more responsibilities than do others. they chose to be there and
: they should do their homework and we should not hesitate to give a big F if
: they don't do their homework.

: ss

I agree with you here. The people in the government should bear more
responsibilty than the ordinary citizens like you and me. There is,
however, a problem: when we give more responsibility to the
government, we need to give more power too. And we still do not
have good leader who could take both big responsibilty and power (this is my
assessment). The neta we have are either too weak to handle the
responsibility and power or are too crooked to misuse them. So the
concept of the government having more power and responsibity is not the
one we would like to have. What is the alternative then? Well you may not
agree with me, but let me express my two cents view. We need to
decentralize the power. We need to return to out ancient state, a
dis-integrated Nepal. Look when Kathmandu, Bhaktapur, Lalitpur,
Gorkha, Makawanpur,Bhojpur etc were separately ruled by separate kings,
they all developed well. All these Rajyas were well managed and were
popular for a specific thing like Tokha was popular for Chhaku, Bhojpur
for Khukuri etc.. We need to rethink in this line now. Why can not we
again have separate government for each small Rajya though we can still
maintain a high level government to look after our foreign affairs. This
high level government will not have to deal with the domestic problems so
even smaller brains can handle this job. The local governments will not
have to think about the global problems so there too the smaller brains
of Nepali netas will be enough. For This structureed/modular programming
(in Pascal or C or C++ or Java) will definitely work better than the
single code programming (FORTRAN or Basic). :) My two cents!

Anil

S. M. Sainju

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Oct 25, 1997, 3:00:00 AM10/25/97

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Rupesh Pradhan wrote:

> Summary for those who don't want to read this long posting:
>
> "The lack of well established business institution is a greater hurdle to
> development in Nepal than the lack of well established political
> institution. Cleaner, dedicated politicians may help, but what we really
> need is more "marwaris" who can add to the economic dynamism of the
> country."
>

This discussion started initially because of the problem"indianization. " I
beg your pardon man but there are more marwaris than we need. how can you say
that? everybody (not everybody) has this fear of indianization and your
saying we need more marwaris? this does not sound quite right. when indians
raise their salt price , don't you know what our government does?

i guess maybe you meant, foreign investors. that would definitely help boost
our economy. everybody knows that. but why can't we see many foreign
investors go and do their investment? because there is too much bureaucracy
involved. i'd rather die hungry man but i can't ask for more marwaris. we
should limit them and invite foreign investors from Europe and America.
this is the dawn of 21st century and we outta enter into the global economy.

more marwaris means the beginning of the end. global economy means the first
step toward the progress. so how can we do that? we need more stable
government. how can we have more stable government? we need cleaner,
dedicated politicians.

how can you not blame the government when you cannot even have a glass of
clean water man?????

--
"You hurt the one you love most."

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Rupesh Pradhan wrote:
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE>Summary for those who don't want to read this long
posting:

"The lack of well established business institution is a greater hurdle
to
 development in Nepal than the lack of well established political
 institution. Cleaner, dedicated politicians may help, but what we really
 need is more "marwaris" who can add to the economic dynamism of the
 country."
  </BLOCKQUOTE>
This discussion started initially because of the problem"indianization.
" I beg your pardon man but there are more marwaris than we need. how can
you say that? everybody (not everybody) has this fear of indianization
and your saying we need more marwaris? this does not sound quite right. 
when indians raise their salt price , don't you know what our government
does?

i guess maybe you meant, foreign investors. that would definitely help
boost our economy. everybody knows that. but why can't we see many foreign
investors go and do their investment? because there is too much bureaucracy
involved. i'd rather die hungry man but i can't ask for more marwaris. 
we should limit them and   invite foreign investors from Europe
and America. this is the dawn of 21st century and we outta enter into the
global economy.

more marwaris means the beginning of the end. global economy means the
first step toward the progress. so how can we do that? we need more stable
government.  how can we have more stable government? we need cleaner,
dedicated politicians.

how can you not blame the government when you cannot even have a glass
of clean water man?????
  
<PRE>-- 
"You hurt the one you love most."

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|                                  Work: 505-835-5049  |
|      S a m  M.  S a i n j u      Fax:  505-835-5587  |
|                                  Home: 505-835-0821  |
| (Personal)Home Page: <A HREF="http://ssainju.cs.nmt.edu">http://ssainju.cs.nmt.edu</A>       |
| (School)Email:       ssa...@nmt.edu                 |
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S. M. Sainju

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Oct 26, 1997, 2:00:00 AM10/26/97

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sounds like a winner!!! i agree with you.

ss

Rupesh Pradhan wrote:

> I agree with Anil Tuladhar's idea that the political power of the central
> authorities needs to be decentralized. However, I disagree that the
> decentralization should take place along geographical lines --such as the
> small rajya-rajauta of the old days as he suggested.
>
> The decetralization should take place within the political institution so
> as to generate checks and balances (and perhaps even healthy competition).
> For a democratic system to work, the judicial, the legislative and the
> executive branches need to be independent of eachother so that they can
> provide checks and balances to eachother. The way our current setup is
> designed, except for the judicial authority, the other two authorities are
> muddled up together.
>
> By virtue of the unfortunate fact that our constitution --and the recent
> Anti-defection Bill-- recognizes the party central committees as the
> ultimate political authorities, both the legislative and the executive
> authorities are held by this committee of the majority party (parties)
> which has no mass electoral base.
>
> THIS centralization of power is what is hurting the democratic process.
> The elected officials are not being made accountable to the people who
> elect them...but they are being held accountable to the all-powerful
> central committees which give them the election "ticket".
>
> Just look at the recent changes in government. When Chand had nominal
> control over the RPP Central Committee, the RPP lawmakers had to vote for
> him as PM. When the control tipped over to Thapa, they had to vote for
> him. Sure, this looks like RPP lawmakers acting unprincipled and cheap.
> But look at it from the perspective of the lawmakers themselves...what
> else can they do but to obey the order of the most powerful party bosses?
>
> A political novice may say, no matter what the cost, one should not
> compromise on one's beliefs, principles, obligations etc etc. But when the
> cost of rebelling against your party central committee is that you will
> lose your membership in the parliament, you will never get another
> "ticket" to run another election, your political career will be
> essentially terminated, and you will not get the party resources anymore,
> most mortals will buckle. Besides, they do not have to justify their
> flippy-floppiness to their electorate...because in reality the key to
> their political career is held by the party central committee...not the
> people.
>
> In summary, political stabilty in a democratic Nepal is dependent upon
> changing our constitution and laws to achieve one thing: taking away the
> legislative and executive power from the non-electoral-based party central
> committees. And then, handing the legislative power to each individual
> elected lawmaker, and the executive power to an independent (yet elected
> in some form) "government".
>
> *****************************************************************
> Rupesh Pradhan
> rupesh_...@unc.edu
> *****************************************************************

--
"You hurt the one you love most."

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<HTML>
sounds like a winner!!! i agree with you.

ss

Rupesh Pradhan wrote:
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE>I agree with Anil Tuladhar's idea that the political
power of the central
 authorities needs to be decentralized. However, I disagree that the
 decentralization should take place along geographical lines --such
as the
 small rajya-rajauta of the old days as he suggested.

The decetralization should take place within the political institution
so
 as to generate checks and balances (and perhaps even healthy competition).
 For a democratic system to work, the judicial, the legislative and
the
 executive branches need to be independent of eachother so that they
can
 provide checks and balances to eachother. The way our current setup
is
 designed, except for the judicial authority, the other two authorities
are
 muddled up together.

By virtue of the unfortunate fact that our constitution --and the recent
 Anti-defection Bill-- recognizes the party central committees as the
 ultimate political authorities, both the legislative and the executive
 authorities are held by this committee of the majority party (parties)
 which has no mass electoral base.

THIS centralization of power is what is hurting the democratic process.
 The elected officials are not being made accountable to the people
who
 elect them...but they are being held accountable to the all-powerful
 central committees which give them the election "ticket".

Just look at the recent changes in government. When Chand had nominal
 control over the RPP Central Committee, the RPP lawmakers had to vote
for
 him as PM. When the control tipped over to Thapa, they had to vote
for
 him. Sure, this looks like RPP lawmakers acting unprincipled and cheap.
 But look at it from the perspective of the lawmakers themselves...what
 else can they do but to obey the order of the most powerful party bosses?

A political novice may say, no matter what the cost, one should not
 compromise on one's beliefs, principles, obligations etc etc. But when
the
 cost of rebelling against your party central committee is that you
will
 lose your membership in the parliament, you will never get another
 "ticket" to run another election, your political career will be
 essentially terminated, and you will not get the party resources anymore,
 most mortals will buckle. Besides, they do not have to justify their
 flippy-floppiness to their electorate...because in reality the key
to
 their political career is held by the party central committee...not
the
 people.

In summary, political stabilty in a democratic Nepal is dependent upon
 changing our constitution and laws to achieve one thing: taking away
the
 legislative and executive power from the non-electoral-based party
central
 committees. And then, handing the legislative power to each individual
 elected lawmaker, and the executive power to an independent (yet elected
 in some form) "government".

*****************************************************************
                               
Rupesh Pradhan
                           
rupesh_...@unc.edu
      *****************************************************************</BLOCKQUOTE>

<PRE>-- 
"You hurt the one you love most."

\\\|///
                        \\  - -  //
                         (  @ @  )
x----------------------oOOo-(_)-oOOo-------------------x
|                                  Work: 505-835-5049  |
|      S a m  M.  S a i n j u      Fax:  505-835-5587  |
|                                  Home: 505-835-0821  |
| (Personal)Home Page: <A HREF="http://ssainju.cs.nmt.edu">http://ssainju.cs.nmt.edu</A>       |
| (School)Email:       ssa...@nmt.edu                 |
| (Address): POBOX 3232 C/S Socorro, NM, 87801         |
|                             Oooo                     |
x----------------------oooO---(   )--------------------x
                      (   )    ) /
                       \ (    (_/
                        \_)</PRE>
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S. M. Sainju

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Oct 27, 1997, 3:00:00 AM10/27/97

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i don't know how much concerned you are about the indianization but my
understanding is that most of us (all the neighbours of india in south asia) are
phobic about it. i whole heartedly welcome entrepreneurial spirit like you said
but do not also forget what can happen in near future. a perfect example is Fiji.
I guess you know about it. that's all i am getting at.

ss

dan greek

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Oct 27, 1997, 3:00:00 AM10/27/97

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It is true that our culture does not respect business entrepreneurship enough. We
cannot expect economic development to take place as long as we fail to recognize
that commercial entrepreneurship needs to be encouraged.

And aside from the blatant and misguided racism/ethnicism involved in critisizing
Marwaris (who have live in Nepal for generations after generations), the real
tragedy is that we deny credit to the very people who arguably, as a group, have
contributed to the development of Nepal more than any other. Look at the number of
industries they have opened in Nepal, look at the number of people to whom they
have given jobs, look at the contribution they have made to the GDP of Nepal? It's
too bad we cannot say the same things about most of the other so-called "true"
Nepalis!

Rupesh Pradhan wrote:

> Let me answer Sainju-ji's following criticism for my call for more
> "marwaris" in Nepal at two different levels.
>
> First, I would like to quote a sentence from Pratyoush's KTM POST article
> of October 24, 1997, on empty nationalism (that Ashu has also just posted
> in this newsgroup). Pratyoush on a slightly different context wrote
> something that makes just as good sense here:
>
> "...If this reflects what we have achieved after decades of
> talking and living through empty symbolic nationalism, I say that
> it is time to dump it."
>
> At a different level let me answer Sainju-ji's criticism by saying that
> when I say we need more "marwaris", I mean more entrepreneurial spirit in
> Nepal. I don't care whether they come from Thak-khola, Manang, Rajasthan
> or wherever. We need to make our social attitude more welcoming of
> business entrepreneurship. When we refuse to accept people who have
> created more jobs in Nepal than anyone, who have built more industries in
> Nepal than anyone, who have contributed more to Nepal's economic
> development than any other group just because they happen to be of Indian
> descent...we will never make progress.
>
> On the one hand you say we need manpower, and the on the other hand you
> criticise one of the most contributory entrepreneurial manpower in Nepal
> simply because they happen to be of Indian descent...even though they may
> have been in Nepal for three or more generations! Talk about racial-ethnic
> bigotry (disguised as hollow nationalism)!
>
> Let me quote another paragraph from Pratyoush's same article:
>
> "Our first discourses beyond empty symbolic nationalism should begin by
> answering the following question asked by poet Dinesh Adhikari in his
> justly famous poem, 'Harkabahadur', a decade ago. In my crude translation,
> it reads: "The year before last/ When his seven-year old daughter/ Died
> after a snake-bite/ How come nationalism did not translate itself/ Into an
> anti-venom medicine?""
>
> Rupesh

Rupesh Pradhan

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Oct 27, 1997, 3:00:00 AM10/27/97

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The previous message published in the name of Dan Greek was written by me.
I was using a public computer lab and realized the author's name appeared
wrong in the posting. I apologize to Dan Greek for unintentionally
thrusting words to his mouth and would like to inform the rest of us that
the opinion expressed are mine.

Rupesh Pradhan

S. M. Sainju

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Oct 27, 1997, 3:00:00 AM10/27/97

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rupesh ji,

imposing a racial slur is not the solution. we need to understand the fact and be
realistic. i never denied the fact that marwaris are one of the biggest factors in
helping boost our economy but you also need to understand that what can easily happen
if we have more and more marwaris. if that's the case, someday you will be a
minority in your own land. a perfect example is Fiji.

i would like to correct you by saying that we don't need more marwaris but we need
more foreign investers in such a way that the supreme power (economical and
political) remains in the hand of nepalis. by saying we need more marwaris creates a
confusion to many (most ) of us (nepalis in general), the fear and anxiety. our
economy is solely controlled by the indians in one way or the other as a result when
indians raise their mattitel ko vau, we have to do likewise. in this sense we don't
have our own economic freedom and independency. if this continues, we will never be
able to stand on our own feet.

if we have the entrepreneurship diversity in our land, we don't have to be run by the
indians. lets face it, we are totally controlled by the indians. there are many of
us who resent that. you keep yelling at 'em but no one will listen. more and more
peple have this fear that there will be more indians in nepal than nepalis.
sadvawana party is a good example. sadvawana party leader gave a speech in hindi in
our parliament. How are we going to react to that? What are we going to say?

barbers in nepal (male) are 100 % indians. last time when i was in nepal, i went to
get hair cut. the guy who cut my hair spoke to me in hindi until i said shut up and
speak in nepali.

your ideas may sound good for a short term ( by inviting more and more marwaris) but
in the long term we can easily loose our soverenty. i would rather say , we need
more foreign investers not more marwaris.

smsainju

dan greek wrote:

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<HTML>
rupesh ji,

imposing a racial slur is not the solution. we need to understand the
fact and be realistic.  i never denied the fact that marwaris are
one of the  biggest factors in helping boost our economy but you also
need to understand that what can easily happen if we have more and more
marwaris.  if that's the case, someday you will be a minority in your
own land. a perfect example is Fiji.

i would like to correct you by saying that we don't need more marwaris
but we need more foreign investers in such a way that the supreme power
(economical and political) remains in the hand of nepalis.  by saying
we need more marwaris creates a confusion to many (most ) of us (nepalis
in general), the fear and anxiety. our economy is solely controlled by
the indians in one way or the other as a result when indians raise their
mattitel ko vau, we have to do likewise.  in this sense we don't have
our own economic freedom and independency.  if this continues, we
will never be able to stand on our own feet.

if we have the entrepreneurship diversity in our land, we don't have
to be run by the indians.  lets face it, we are totally controlled
by the indians.  there are many of us who resent that. you keep yelling
at 'em but no one will listen. more and more peple have this fear that
there will be more indians in nepal  than nepalis.  sadvawana
party is a good example.  sadvawana party leader gave a speech in
hindi in our parliament. How are we going to react to that? What are we
going to say?

barbers in nepal (male) are 100 % indians. last time when i was in nepal,
i went to get hair cut. the guy  who cut my hair spoke to me in hindi
until i said shut up and speak in nepali.

your ideas may sound good for a short term ( by inviting more and more
marwaris) but in the long term we can easily loose our soverenty. 
i would rather say ,  we need more foreign investers not more marwaris.

smsainju

dan greek wrote:
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE>It is true that our culture does not respect business
entrepreneurship enough. We
 cannot expect economic development to take place as long as we fail
to recognize
 that commercial entrepreneurship needs to be encouraged.

And aside from the blatant and misguided racism/ethnicism involved in
critisizing
 Marwaris (who have live in Nepal for generations after generations),
the real
 tragedy is that we deny credit to the very people who arguably, as
a group, have
 contributed to the development of Nepal more than any other. Look at
the number of
 industries they have opened in Nepal, look at the number of people
to whom they
 have given jobs, look at the contribution they have made to the GDP
of Nepal? It's
 too bad we cannot say the same things about most of the other so-called
"true"
 Nepalis!

Rupesh Pradhan wrote:

> Let me answer Sainju-ji's following criticism for my call for more
 > "marwaris" in Nepal at two different levels.
 >
 > First, I would like to quote a sentence from Pratyoush's KTM POST
article
 > of October 24, 1997, on empty nationalism (that Ashu has also just
posted
 > in this newsgroup). Pratyoush on a slightly different context wrote
 > something that makes just as good sense here:
 >
 >         "...If this reflects

what we have achieved after decades of

>         talking and living

through empty symbolic nationalism, I say that

>         it is time to dump
it."
 >
 > At a different level let me answer Sainju-ji's criticism by saying
that
 > when I say we need more "marwaris", I mean more entrepreneurial spirit
in
 > Nepal. I don't care whether they come from Thak-khola, Manang, Rajasthan
 > or wherever. We need to make our social attitude more welcoming of
 > business entrepreneurship. When we refuse to accept people who have
 > created more jobs in Nepal than anyone, who have built more industries
in
 > Nepal than anyone, who have contributed more to Nepal's economic
 > development than any other group just because they happen to be of
Indian
 > descent...we will never make progress.
 >
 > On the one hand you say we need manpower, and the on the other hand
you
 > criticise one of the most contributory entrepreneurial manpower in
Nepal
 > simply because they happen to be of Indian descent...even though
they may
 > have been in Nepal for three or more generations! Talk about racial-ethnic
 > bigotry (disguised as hollow nationalism)!
 >
 > Let me quote another paragraph from Pratyoush's same article:
 >
 > "Our first discourses beyond empty symbolic nationalism should begin
by
 > answering the following question asked by poet Dinesh Adhikari in
his
 > justly famous poem, 'Harkabahadur', a decade ago. In my crude translation,
 > it reads: "The year before last/ When his seven-year old daughter/
Died
 > after a snake-bite/ How come nationalism did not translate itself/
Into an
 > anti-venom medicine?""
 >
 > Rupesh
 >
 > On Sat, 25 Oct 1997, S. M. Sainju wrote:
 >
 > > Rupesh Pradhan wrote:
 > >
 > > > Summary for those who don't want to read this long posting:
 > > >
 > > > "The lack of well established business institution is a greater
hurdle to
 > > > development in Nepal than the lack of well established political
 > > > institution. Cleaner, dedicated politicians may help, but what
we really
 > > > need is more "marwaris" who can add to the economic dynamism
of the
 > > > country."
 > > >
 > >
 > > This discussion started initially because of the problem"indianization.
" I
 > > beg your pardon man but there are more marwaris than we need. how
can you say
 > > that? everybody (not everybody) has this fear of indianization
and your
 > > saying we need more marwaris? this does not sound quite right. 
when indians
 > > raise their salt price , don't you know what our government does?
 > >
 > > i guess maybe you meant, foreign investors. that would definitely
help boost
 > > our economy. everybody knows that. but why can't we see many foreign
 > > investors go and do their investment? because there is too much
bureaucracy
 > > involved. i'd rather die hungry man but i can't ask for more marwaris. 
we
 > > should limit them and   invite foreign investors from
Europe and America.
 > > this is the dawn of 21st century and we outta enter into the global
economy.
 > >
 > > more marwaris means the beginning of the end. global economy means
the first
 > > step toward the progress. so how can we do that? we need more stable
 > > government.  how can we have more stable government? we need
cleaner,
 > > dedicated politicians.
 > >
 > > how can you not blame the government when you cannot even have
a glass of
 > > clean water man?????
 > >
 > >
 > > --
 > > "You hurt the one you love most."
 > >
 > >                          
\\\|///
 > >                        
\\  - -  //
 > >                         
(  @ @  )
 > > x----------------------oOOo-(_)-oOOo-------------------x
 > > |                                 
Work: 505-835-5049  |
 > > |      S a m  M.  S a i n j

u      Fax:  505-835-5587  |

> > |                                 
Home: 505-835-0821  |
 > > | (Personal)Home Page: <A HREF="http://ssainju.cs.nmt.edu">http://ssainju.cs.nmt.edu</A>      
|
 > > | (School)Email:       ssa...@nmt.edu                
|
 > > | (Address): POBOX 3232 C/S Socorro, NM, 87801        
|
 > > |

Oooo                    
|

> > x----------------------oooO---(   )--------------------x
 > >

(   )    ) /

> >                       
\ (    (_/
 > >                        
\_)
 > >
 > >
 > ></BLOCKQUOTE>
 
<PRE>--

"You hurt the one you love most."

\\\|///
                        \\  - -  //
                         (  @ @  )
x----------------------oOOo-(_)-oOOo-------------------x
|                                  Work: 505-835-5049  |
|      S a m  M.  S a i n j u      Fax:  505-835-5587  |
|                                  Home: 505-835-0821  |
| (Personal)Home Page: <A HREF="http://ssainju.cs.nmt.edu">http://ssainju.cs.nmt.edu</A>       |
| (School)Email:       ssa...@nmt.edu                 |
| (Address): POBOX 3232 C/S Socorro, NM, 87801         |
|                             Oooo                     |
x----------------------oooO---(   )--------------------x
                      (   )    ) /
                       \ (    (_/
                        \_)</PRE>
 </HTML>

--------------EBBF45460032AFDA17BBF1DE--

Lapen

unread,

Oct 27, 1997, 3:00:00 AM10/27/97

to

> ---------------------------------------------------------------

> | Oooo |
>
>====================================================================

Thanks for making it a lively discussion. I only wish more people would
join in. I guess there are people who would close it as soon as they have
read it unless it provokes them individually.

Here are my few paisa worth comments.

I guess one might get the impression the Nepali sensitivity is to such
level mere a mention of the things that are Indian provokes a national
feeling. If our national feeling is so delecate that we have to get the
Indians or the things that are Indians to arouse it, then like Pratyoush
said in a recent K-Post article "it is time to dump it".

In fact, the Nepali sensitivity is not hateful of anything Indian. We
love anthing that is Indian, be it a religion, a movie, Hindi language to
name a few. In Nepal, we have hundereds of kilometers of open border with
India, almost anything and everything is India. Just because a few
airplanes fly and bypass India when we are leaving Nepal for some other
countries, it is wrong to think that we have left India behind.

Nepalis love the things that are Indians. There are people in Nepal who
still wear dhotis (not to mention those who still wear dhotis as sacred
garment in their religious ceromonies). Our politicians take a pilgrimage
and mental health trips to India. As for the language, our bureacrats and
politicians love to use Hindi when they greet and talk to each other.
There is a saying that "an Indian tries to speak in English when he's
drunk while a Nepali mumbles the Hindi words in a state of drunkenness".

When a Nepali Gajurel visiting India, he loves to remind everyone that
the Gajurel and Gujral are of the same origin. Upadhyay, Sharma, Bishta,
Pathak, Dixit and Pandey are the same the lot you find in India. Why
differentiate only the Marwaris? After all, the Ranas proudly say that
they came from Rajasthan too? Isn't Rajasthan in India or is it a well
developed village somewhere in western Nepal or somewhere in Shangrila?

If there is to be a referendum tomorrow (and I earnestly hope and pray
there won't be one) whether to go with India or remain as it is, I bet
many of those having roots, not just the Marwaris alone and the misguided
ones by the Gajendra Narayan Singh, will be the ones to vote to go with
India. What does it matter to them when they have already practiced the
sell out in many different ways while you are ruling the country??

Besides, the empty nationalism sucks and stinks. It is easy to fantacize
Nepal from the comfort of your keyboard. Wasn't there someone recently
who posted her thoughts here saying how beautiful Nepal is (or was??).
She was so notstalgic of her village, schoolmates and environment around.
Many of us are either ignorant of the realities or join the bandwagon to
enjoy the loot.

Finance Minister Mahat had to resign because he had a bank account in a
foreign bank. How absurd?? How many people in Nepal, bureacrats,
ministers, politicians or whoever, do not have a bank account in India??
Do we not consider India a foreign country? If we do, why don't they
investigate knowing that many have a running bank account in India. If
not, we should not talk about the India overrunning us in Nepal in
business and in politics. The Nepali congress takes the political advice
from the like of Chandrasekhar -- don't know good or bad. India is
everywhere in Nepal. Pashupatinath's chief priest comes from India.
Jagadguru is followed in Nepal, if not worshipped.

If you were travelling in an Indian train and you ran into two top
leaders each of NC and UML (assuming you had never seen them before) and
they happen to be your fellow passengers, you could not be blamed if you
thought that they were local politicians going from Bihar to UP or vice
versa.

We have such a variety and similarities.

I also heard through somebody recently that in Nepal many people of
Indian origin would criticize India just to prove themselves to be of
more Nepali origin.

When you love everything that is Indian, why say just the opposite?
Besides, what is a nationalism? In Nepal, citizenship is sold. A Chief
District Officer, who could look less a Nepali and my be a lot less
Nepali at heart, is authorized to award the citizenship. I was told
once that a Rai woman wearing a typical Rai garments/ornaments was denied
citizenship certificate by a CDO who questioned her Nepaliness. The
CDO happened to be a recent lot of immigrant from the southern
border. What could be a more phonier than this?

I could go on and on but it is time to hear from you.

Lapen SP

S. M. Sainju

unread,

Oct 27, 1997, 3:00:00 AM10/27/97

to

--------------FD3F9B6178F4DFED8CFC230C

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

rupesh ji,

we need to be realistic. just because i said we need to limit these marwaris does not
mean that i am a racist. the fear and anxiety we have today is the so called
"indianization." more and more indians are coming to nepal. i hope you accept that. i
hope you too take this as a serious threat to nepal's future. we should not think of
develpment as a short term phenomenon but rather a long one that should make a
significant difference in our daily lives.

maybe you have profound passion toward them. i do too but not much enough to loose my
dignity. lets face the fact, we are an underdog and we will always be, if this
continue. the only way to get out of such a suffocation is to be economically
independent. when can that happen? only when our politicans (pani maruwa) have the
gutts to fight (not literally) against the indians forour rights and privileges.

last but not least we should limit the marwaris and encourage the foreign investers
(maybe americans and eurpians and japanese and so on).

dan greek wrote:

--------------FD3F9B6178F4DFED8CFC230C

Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<HTML>
rupesh ji,

we need to be realistic. just because i said we need to limit these
marwaris does not mean that i am a racist. the fear and anxiety we have
today is the so called "indianization." more and more indians are coming
to nepal. i hope you accept that. i hope you too take this as a serious
threat to nepal's future.  we should not think of develpment as a
short term phenomenon but rather a long one that should make a significant
difference in our daily lives.

maybe you have profound passion toward them. i do too but not much enough
to loose my dignity. lets face the fact, we are an underdog and we will
always be, if this continue.  the only way to get out of such a suffocation
is to be economically independent.  when can that happen? only when
our politicans (pani maruwa) have the gutts to fight (not literally) against
the indians forour rights and privileges.

last but not least we should limit the marwaris and  encourage
the foreign investers (maybe americans and eurpians and japanese and so
on).

dan greek wrote:
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE>It is true that our culture does not respect business
entrepreneurship enough. We
 cannot expect economic development to take place as long as we fail
to recognize
 that commercial entrepreneurship needs to be encouraged.

And aside from the blatant and misguided racism/ethnicism involved in
critisizing
 Marwaris (who have live in Nepal for generations after generations),
the real
 tragedy is that we deny credit to the very people who arguably, as
a group, have
 contributed to the development of Nepal more than any other. Look at
the number of
 industries they have opened in Nepal, look at the number of people
to whom they
 have given jobs, look at the contribution they have made to the GDP
of Nepal? It's
 too bad we cannot say the same things about most of the other so-called
"true"
 Nepalis!

Rupesh Pradhan wrote:

> Let me answer Sainju-ji's following criticism for my call for more
 > "marwaris" in Nepal at two different levels.
 >
 > First, I would like to quote a sentence from Pratyoush's KTM POST
article
 > of October 24, 1997, on empty nationalism (that Ashu has also just
posted
 > in this newsgroup). Pratyoush on a slightly different context wrote
 > something that makes just as good sense here:
 >
 >         "...If this reflects

what we have achieved after decades of

>         talking and living

through empty symbolic nationalism, I say that

>         it is time to dump
it."
 >
 > At a different level let me answer Sainju-ji's criticism by saying
that
 > when I say we need more "marwaris", I mean more entrepreneurial spirit
in
 > Nepal. I don't care whether they come from Thak-khola, Manang, Rajasthan
 > or wherever. We need to make our social attitude more welcoming of
 > business entrepreneurship. When we refuse to accept people who have
 > created more jobs in Nepal than anyone, who have built more industries
in
 > Nepal than anyone, who have contributed more to Nepal's economic
 > development than any other group just because they happen to be of
Indian
 > descent...we will never make progress.
 >
 > On the one hand you say we need manpower, and the on the other hand
you
 > criticise one of the most contributory entrepreneurial manpower in
Nepal
 > simply because they happen to be of Indian descent...even though
they may
 > have been in Nepal for three or more generations! Talk about racial-ethnic
 > bigotry (disguised as hollow nationalism)!
 >
 > Let me quote another paragraph from Pratyoush's same article:
 >
 > "Our first discourses beyond empty symbolic nationalism should begin
by
 > answering the following question asked by poet Dinesh Adhikari in
his
 > justly famous poem, 'Harkabahadur', a decade ago. In my crude translation,
 > it reads: "The year before last/ When his seven-year old daughter/
Died
 > after a snake-bite/ How come nationalism did not translate itself/
Into an

> anti-venom medicine?""
 >
 > Rupesh
 >
 > On Sat, 25 Oct 1997, S. M. Sainju wrote:
 >
 > > Rupesh Pradhan wrote:
 > >

> > > Summary for those who don't want to read this long posting:
 > > >
 > > > "The lack of well established business institution is a greater
hurdle to
 > > > development in Nepal than the lack of well established political
 > > > institution. Cleaner, dedicated politicians may help, but what
we really
 > > > need is more "marwaris" who can add to the economic dynamism
of the
 > > > country."
 > > >
 > >
 > > This discussion started initially because of the problem"indianization.
" I
 > > beg your pardon man but there are more marwaris than we need. how
can you say
 > > that? everybody (not everybody) has this fear of indianization
and your
 > > saying we need more marwaris? this does not sound quite right. 
when indians
 > > raise their salt price , don't you know what our government does?
 > >
 > > i guess maybe you meant, foreign investors. that would definitely
help boost
 > > our economy. everybody knows that. but why can't we see many foreign
 > > investors go and do their investment? because there is too much
bureaucracy
 > > involved. i'd rather die hungry man but i can't ask for more marwaris. 
we
 > > should limit them and   invite foreign investors from
Europe and America.
 > > this is the dawn of 21st century and we outta enter into the global
economy.
 > >
 > > more marwaris means the beginning of the end. global economy means
the first
 > > step toward the progress. so how can we do that? we need more stable
 > > government.  how can we have more stable government? we need
cleaner,
 > > dedicated politicians.
 > >
 > > how can you not blame the government when you cannot even have
a glass of

> > clean water man?????
 > >
 > >
 > > --
 > > "You hurt the one you love most."
 > >
 > >                          
\\\|///
 > >                        
\\  - -  //
 > >                         
(  @ @  )
 > > x----------------------oOOo-(_)-oOOo-------------------x

> > |                                 
Work: 505-835-5049  |
 > > |      S a m  M.  S a i n j

u      Fax:  505-835-5587  |

> > |                                 
Home: 505-835-0821  |
 > > | (Personal)Home Page: <A HREF="http://ssainju.cs.nmt.edu">http://ssainju.cs.nmt.edu</A>      
|
 > > | (School)Email:       ssa...@nmt.edu                
|
 > > | (Address): POBOX 3232 C/S Socorro, NM, 87801        
|
 > > |

Oooo                    
|

> > x----------------------oooO---(   )--------------------x
 > >

(   )    ) /

> >                       
\ (    (_/
 > >                        
\_)
 > >
 > >
 > ></BLOCKQUOTE>
 
<PRE>--

"You hurt the one you love most."

\\\|///
                        \\  - -  //
                         (  @ @  )
x----------------------oOOo-(_)-oOOo-------------------x
|                                  Work: 505-835-5049  |
|      S a m  M.  S a i n j u      Fax:  505-835-5587  |
|                                  Home: 505-835-0821  |
| (Personal)Home Page: <A HREF="http://ssainju.cs.nmt.edu">http://ssainju.cs.nmt.edu</A>       |
| (School)Email:       ssa...@nmt.edu                 |
| (Address): POBOX 3232 C/S Socorro, NM, 87801         |
|                             Oooo                     |
x----------------------oooO---(   )--------------------x
                      (   )    ) /
                       \ (    (_/
                        \_)</PRE>
 </HTML>

--------------FD3F9B6178F4DFED8CFC230C--

Rupesh Pradhan

unread,

Oct 28, 1997, 3:00:00 AM10/28/97

to

On Sun, 26 Oct 1997, Sandai wrote:
>
> Rupesh Pradhan wrote:
>
> > ... ...
> > The point is clear: while a good stable clean government would help, it is
> > neither a necessary nor a sufficient condition for development. Had the
> > people of Taiwan, Italy, South Korea, Chile, Argentina, Brazil (and there
> > are numerous other counrties) waited until their government became stable
> > and/or clean before they did their own part, they would still be waiting.
> > Just like you, me and the rest of Nepal.
> >
>
> Isn't there any alternative than waiting our Nepal to be developed by
> some cosmic powers as these recently developed countries. There had been
> several good logics and arguments about reasons of no development but
> why no one comes with some good method of developing Nepal with loud
> voice or nice words.

Sandai and others,

You seem to have misunderstood the argument here. My point is that we
should *NOT* wait for a stable clean government before we did our own part
(whatever it is). Italians (I recently cofirmed) have had 55 corrupt
governments in the past 50 years....but that did not prevent the Italians
from salvaging their country from being one of the poorest European
countries to one of the most richest.

And moreover, we have to get rid of the belief that for development to
take place, some super wise, stable, dedicated and clean government (or
political leader) should come up with a grand cosmic plan do so. Such a
government (if there can ever be one) may help, but --as I argued-- it is
neither necessary nor sufficient. So the answer to your question on if
anyone can come up with *grand* plan for Nepal's development is that we
don't really need one.

What we need on the other hand are more people in their own scale doing
"small" things as well as can be done. Open a carpet factory, send money
to Nepal, study history, fight for the environment, start up a computer
business, run a restaurant, make movies, run for the VDC
Chairman...whatever...just do your best instead of sitting around --in a
local Bhatti or some dim-lit bar somewhere in Arizona-- cursing at that
damn government.

When the government doesn't do anything, the result is inconvenience. But
when the *PEOPLE* don't do anything, the result is underdevelopment.

Rupesh

Rupesh Pradhan

unread,

Oct 29, 1997, 3:00:00 AM10/29/97

to

On Mon, 27 Oct 1997, S. M. Sainju wrote:

> rupesh ji,
> imposing a racial slur is not the solution. we need to understand the fact and be
> realistic. i never denied the fact that marwaris are one of the biggest factors in
> helping boost our economy but you also need to understand that what can easily happen

> if we have more and more marwaris....

Notice that I put the word "marwaris" under quotations in my original
posting...which is meant to emphasize that we need more of the marwari
spirit of respect for and dedication to entrepreneural spirit in our
society. I did not mean it literally.

Having said that, however, I am willing to defend the rights of multiple
generation marwaris in Nepal who have been done injustice by our
collective racism thinly disguised as nationalism. But I will refrain from
doing that here because that will distract us from the main point: the
lack entrepreneural spirit in Nepal is a bigger hurdle in Nepali economic
development than political mess.

Anil Tuladhar

unread,

Oct 30, 1997, 3:00:00 AM10/30/97

to

: WE SHOULD LIMIT MARWARIS? "Indianization" is a serious threat to
: Nepal's future? Since the dawn of civilization, "Nepal" has been an
: inseperable territory of "Maha-Bharat." Back then there was no such
: thing as Nepal or India. If we go back to our history books, there were
: several independent kingdoms, say for an example the Lichhavis were the
: rulers of the nothern territory "currently Nepal", while the Guptas,
: Pallavas, etc. were ruling south of river Ganges. During the
: harsh/cruel Mughal rule, several (thousands) of the dwellers south of
: the river Ganges fled north, some to the Gardwal, Kumaon, while some
: went further north to present day Nepal. It was only couple of
: centuries ago, Prithvi Narayan Shah (as you all know) united the tiny
: neighbouring states to what we now call Nepal. "Indianization," as you
: point out has been a part of our daily life(exceptions for the Kiratis,
: Manangays, and the people of the northern side, ie. Lo Manthang). We
: have the same beliefs (religion), similarity in culture, tradition, code
: and ethics, morality, food, dress, some what similar political
: characteristics, etc. We are the ones who can't just seem to miss a
: single "Indian" movies, singing "Maine Pyar Kiya"; and when we happen to
: see a "terai/southerner" passing by, the word "madhisay/marsya/dhoti"
: comes out automatically. We sent our sons and daughters to good
: "Indian" schools, we know their education standards are superior than
: ours. Almost all the consumer products that satisfies our needs comes
: from "India." I really mean almost everything. Of course we can
: eliminate the threat of "Indianization," the day we become
: self-reliant. However, that Indianness will still remain within us.

: Will write the rest later... go to go. Sorry for incompletion.

: Sanjay

Sanjay,
Everything you wrote are true. Though we make look different from
indians, the living style, thinking style and even behaving styles are
more indian than Nepali. So there is no question that we have been
indianized from time immemorial. Further our religions are also same as
those of indians. Most of our gods are indians so how can we separate
ourself from india? Basically we are indians.....Did not you see Little
Buddha? One of the candidates for Lama was from Kathmandu and he was
singing a Hindi song and all the people around in Kathmandu were speaking
Hindi. Did you see Tintin's adventure in Himalayas? In that comics
people in Kathmandu were speaking Hindi. So I believe that we are
basically indians.

But it hurts somewhere in our heart when we call ourselves as
indians. It may be our selfish nature or very racist attitude but it
hurts. Indians are more richer in every sense to us so calling ourselves
as indian should have given more pride to us. As you said we send our
children to indian school because they are better. Still it hurts when
we have to accept that we are 99% indian. Why?

This question deserves many PhD theses but I am trying to explain
this in my own way here. It hurts because it is immoral. It hurts
because it is not true. It hurts because it is not supposed to be true.

It is immoral because it is equivalent to killing your identity and you are
accepting you defeat. Yes, Nepal is a small country and does not have any
resources. This explains our entire dependency on indian stuffs from
food, medicine, cinema to schooling. But these are all things, just
things, you know what I meant. Just things not what constitutes your
identity. You won't become an indian by singing a hindi song. You won't
become an indian by eating dosa or idli. They are just things. So are
religions and languages. They are just things. What are the ingredients
which constitute your identity then? It can not be put in words. It can
be inferred but can not be put in words. let me give you an
example.

Heart is situated at the center of lungs. Lungs are big and
surrounding the heart. Lungs are providing all the oxygen needed for the
cells of heart. And at the basic level all those heart cells and lung
cells are similar. Quite similar down to their nucleus and cytoplasm.
But why did not heart get dissolved in lungs? Why should the cells of
heart need to maintain its identity despite so much dependency on lungs.
So for every existing structure there are some reasons, good reasons,
behind them. If we try to identify ourself as indians, we are breaking
those laws so it is immoral.

I also got to got now. More in next. Stay tuned.

--
*************************************************************************
* *
* Anil Tuladhar *
* ____ *
* __\___\_______ *
* URL: )_|| __| /\/\| *
* \) ||0 | \ | *
* http://www.ee.ubc.ca/~anilt *
* (Signature eh!) *
*************************************************************************

Sandai

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Oct 31, 1997, 3:00:00 AM10/31/97

to

> WE SHOULD LIMIT MARWARIS?

Most of Marwaris are the corrupt enterprenuers in Nepal who are making
our politicians and bureucrats more corrupt. I used to hear that
Marwaris come to Nepal after unsuccessful business in India and this
story seems partly true. Marwaris can go very low in moralty of business
and achieve what they want. Such act can only be done when someone has
no alternative to do except things with low moral. I have also heard
their attitude of "Nepali Paisaka kya Bharosa". We can observe
that most of Marwaris donot come with some resources. They start small
business in Nepal, earn big money and send money to India. They donot
seem to inputting something from outside. Such enterpreneurs should
certainly be limited.

Sanjay Shrestha

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Oct 31, 1997, 3:00:00 AM10/31/97

to

Dear Anil:

It is probably immoral killing one's identity and accepting defeat, but
I don't believe I have done that. I am proud Nepali as much as you are,
and only I know how much proud, I really am. Being a patriot, is more
than just one's claim, it is about the inner impulses, unconditional
love, and duties of people like you and me. However, the definition of
"patriotism" varies for each individual. Anyway, talking about
Indianess, we certainly do have a common base (code of ethics, moral,
culture, religion, food, etc.), but that doesn't necessary imply we are
Indians, nor did I make an effort to do so.

Before I confuse you, let me go back to my original posting re:
"indianization" being a threat to Nepal. If thats true, then what is
the solution? Abandon the religion, ethics, moral, tradition, we share
with them? I think not.

From a commercial point of view, "indianization" may be a threat, or may
not be, judgement varies once again. S. Sainju mentioned that we should
limit "marwaris." If we were to limit "marwaris", then say our southern
neighbours to limit "nepalis", what would be the consequences. I've
heard that there are more Nepalis entering India for jobs and other
business ventures, than Indians coming over North. Specifically
speaking about "marwaris", we have gained more from these entreprenuers
and venture capitalist, than any other group of "Indian-Nepalis." There
is a lot we can learn from their entreprenuerial skills, business
techniques, network, and ofcourse, hardwork. Furthermore, they excel in
customer service. Let me share a experience of mine, which happened
several years ago. It was winter time, and I badly needed a warm
jacket. I first went to a newar sahuji's pasal, thinking why not give
him a business rather than a marwari. I was really dissapointed by the
Sahuji's attitude: take it or leave it. Forget about the service, I
don't think he knew it was required. Next, I entered this marwari's
pasal, imagine the welcome I received. He was curteous, professional,
and eager to know my needs. He even offered me a cup of tea, further
asked me if I'd like buscuits (it wasn't really necessary, curteous,
however). He showed me all the jackets that were available in my size.
After finally making a selection, we negotiated the price; he offered me
a price lower than the newar sahuji's. I left the marwari's pasal, a
happy, satisfied customer, with a lower price and better service. He
knew I would come back again and again.

Instead of limiting marwaris, we should wake up from a deep slumber of
how to do business. We do have an option of not being an underdog. We
have to change the way we do business. Change is not only inevitable,
but also necessary. I would also like to point that not all marwaris
are unethical, as we have that kind of perception.
Marwaris are welcome to Nepal as much as other foreign investors and
venture capitalists. Before we blame others, we need to identify our
own problems, and focus on the solution.

Comments welcome.

Sanjay.

P.S: I am not pin-pointing on the "newar" sahuji only.

Ashutosh Tiwari

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Oct 31, 1997, 3:00:00 AM10/31/97

to

Rupesh Pradhan <pra...@email.unc.edu> writes:

> the main point: the lack of entrepreneural spirit in Nepal is a bigger

> hurdle in Nepali economic development than political mess.

I applaud Rupesh's efforts to make a case for Nepal's needing MORE
businesses. I also applaud his defence of the "marwaris". Defending
"marwaris" in this public a forum (where hollow nationalism and mushy
patriotism are easy and intuitively appealing and, as Pratyoush has also
argued in another essay, ultimately worthless staples) with reasons and
evidence takes guts, and I admire that.

But that said, I strongly disagree with Rupesh in that I don't think that
there is this "lack of [general] entreprenurial spirit in Nepal". Sure,
Nepal may not have entrepreneurs in the league of Bill Gates or Richard
Branson, but that makes no difference from an economic point of view. As
Rupesh will agree, a new business is a new business, regardless of whether
you produce computer chips or potato chips.

Let me give some anecdotes. First, as most Nepalis who have built houses
in Kathmandu and other urban centers well know, it's quite
'entreprenurial' to make sure that ground floors could be rented out as
'shutter-wallah pasals'. In fact, one can even say that the whole system
of entrepreneurship is so developed in Kathmandu that at times the whole
city looks like a city of shopkeepers! (Here, I need not even talk about
the proliferation of department stores, restaurants, cinema-halls,
taxi-cabs and so forth in Nepal in the last two years.)

Second, as a stroll through any major bus-stop on any highway shows, there
are plenty of Nepalis who are entrepreneurial enough to leave their 'pahad
ko ghar', come to the Tarai, and start and run their new businesses --
whether dal-bhat restaurants, fruit-stands, 'kirana pasals' and what not.
These people have taken incredible risks to be where they are today, and
we can't really say something like: "well, opening a fruit-stand in the
middle of Narayan-ghat bazaar is not really being an entrepreneur".

So, it's not difficult to argue entreprenurship ON SOME LEVEL does exist
well and alive in Nepal, and on that level that Nepalis are as capable as
any other people when it comes to exploiting their own income-enhancing
opportunities.

That's why rather than saying that there is this "lack of
entrepreneurship" in Nepal, and thereby end up making a vague and rather
subjective judgement about Nepal as a whole, I'd think that a more
convincing step would be to examine whether or not MOST Nepalis do face
INCENTIVES to be DIFFERENT kinds of entrepreneurs doing DIFFERENT kinds of
things in Nepal in the first place.

Here, I'd say, most Nepalis -- and almost all foreign investors -- face
very little incentives to be entrepreneurs and run their own businesses in
Nepal. The misalignment of incentives has a helluva more to do with the
lack of business institutions in Nepal than Nepalis' being maybe
temperamentally unsuitable for the rough and the tumble of doing
business.

1) After all, think: in a country where a business contract -- the
lifeblood of any business -- cannot be enforced, and is often flouted;

2) in a country where tangible expressions of your ideas and inventions
enjoy no legal protection (hence others are free to 'steal' them! And all
you can do is get mad),

3) in a country where opening up a credit-line from private and public
financial institutions is almost next to impossible (you need land as
collateral or your father needs to be a millionaire);

4) in a country where your foreign partner is rarely given a long-term
visa even when one wing of the government never tires of crying hoarse
about attracting foreign investment and 'technology-transfer' schemes.

5) in a country where, in practice, tax laws DEMAND that you show profit
every year, and pay correspondingly higher taxes every year EVEN when you
are actually operating on a loss.

6) in a country where your industry prices are dictated not so much by
the market forces as by the whims of the buddy-buddy cartel-members of
your own industry. (If you can't join this buddy-system, you are out there
fending for yourselves.)

7) in a country, where getting a phone line and a post-box office (in
Soon.dhara) for your business frustratingly eats away at your start-up
costs,

8) in a country, where property rights are not well-defined, and where
there are many legal barriers (not to mention financing barriers) to
buying up properties to locate your firm, office, company, factory . . .

Then what INCENTIVES do you or most Nepalis -- with ambition, ideas,
risk-taking attitudes, energy but with little money -- really face to be
entrepreneurs in the first place? Forget it, the barriers to entry in most
markets in Nepal are just too many and too COSTLY for MOST Nepalis who --
by definition -- are neither rich NOR well-connected to the overall
business/political networks in Nepal.

In light of this, I actually think that the STATE in Nepal does have a
SERIOUS role to play. To borrow Amartya Sen's phrase from another context,
the policies of Nepali state need to be more MARKET-FRIENDLY, and a lot
less in the mode of "controlling the market", as government after
government in Nepal tend to do. (Aside: there's no rational reason WHY
Nepal still needs a Ministry of Supplies, for example -- the market can
easily supply noon/chini and chamal to people at very competitive rates!)

So, in an ideal world, there will be a Nepali government which will LIMIT
itself to:

1 providing and enforcing COMPULSORY (primary) school education on all.

2. Taking care of public health/social security concerns for all.

3. Taking care of foreign policies.

4. Maintaining the army and the police, and maintaining the law and order,
and ensuring that individual rights and property rights figure
importantly.

5. Adopting market-friendly policies to free up Nepali janata ko
talents, visions, ambitions and energies to do what they think is best
for themselves.

6. Smashing the notion that desh bikas comes from the government. (As
Rupesh pointed out, desh bikas comes from many janata doing millions of
sano-sano kaam in their own way.)

7. And, above all, by learning to TRUST the janata.

Nepali janata, as Fr. Stiller
has pointed out in his history books, are truly remarkable for their
sense of energy, wisdom, compassion, hardwork and resilience. The
dominant elite thinking that goes in the mode of "our janata
are illiterate and they have no 'consciousness', no awareness, hence
desh bikas is impossible without our janata's first changing their
whatever attitude' IS absolutely BOGUS.

The challenge facing any Nepali government, then, is NOT to do
everything right, but to do FEW THINGS right, and LEAVE the REST to the
people.

Given that, I, for one, have no doubts that Nepali janata will prove to be
as remarkable entrepreneurs as their counterparts anywhere.

As Bill Gates famously remarked, "The distribution of raw entreprenurial
talent is roughly the same everywhere." Assuming Nepal too has its share,
the question then is how do you let that talent flourish?

ngawang sherpa

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Nov 4, 1997, 3:00:00 AM11/4/97

to

cs.nmt.edu> <Pine.A41.3.95L.97102...@login0.isis.unc.edu> <3454C50E...@cmst.com> <3454FA7A...@cs.nmt.edu> <Pine.A41.3.95L.971029...@login6.isis.unc.edu> <345E56E2...@cs.nmt.edu>

Sanjay Shrestha drew a very unfair comparison between corrupt and almost
"marvaris" and the corrupt "sarkaari karmacharis". Apart from the
absolute necessity of corruption for the "karmacharis", please do note
where the money made through corruption goes in the end. With the
"karmacharis", the money stays in Nepal where as with the "marvaris", the
money made in the process goes over the border into India.

The accusation about the immoral business practices coming from India is
not baseless at all. Just go to Thamel and see the difference. If you had
been there ten years back, you would see the tourists just mingling
around. However today, they simply do not have that luxery due to
constant harassment from vendors which include both Nepalese and Indians.
By the way, let us not limit the blame to just the "marvaris". Kashmiris
have been overtaking almost all tourist sector business in Kathmandu, and
most often, very unfairly.

Regarding your arguement about the Nepalese speaking Hindi in Tintin, let
me tell you that the author of the comic never ventured beyond Europe.
Some even say that he didn't even step outside his homecountry. Futher
more, a street child singing Hindi in a movie doesn't make the entire
country India. According your argument, we should all be Americans now
because most of the youths in KTM in fact sing English songs, and even
try to speak England.

Finally, speaking English, or being able to speak English has become a
social status in Kathmandu, not Hindi. The same concept lies in India.

This much for now,

Ngawang Karsang Sherpa

Ashutosh Tiwari

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Nov 5, 1997, 3:00:00 AM11/5/97

to

she...@dolphin.upenn.edu (ngawang sherpa) writes:

>cs.nmt.edu> <Pine.A41.3.95L.97102...@login0.isis.unc.edu> <3454C50E...@cmst.com> <3454FA7A...@cs.nmt.edu> <Pine.A41.3.95L.971029...@login6.isis.unc.edu> <345E56E2...@cs.nmt.edu>

> With the
>[corrupt]

>"karmacharis", the money stays in Nepal where as with the "marvaris", the
>money made in the process goes over the border into India.

"With the [corrupt] karmacharis, money stays in Nepal". So true!

Corrupt karmacharis do NOT use their "ill-gotten" money to import
alabaster marble for their newly-built mansions in Kathmandu; corrupt
karmacharis do NOT use their "ill-gotten" money to pay for their
offsprings' fancy foreign education in various locations around the
planet; corrupt karmacharis do NOT make shopping trips to Delhi,
Singapore, Bangkok and buy all kinds of consumer goods; corrupt
karmacharis do NOT patronize Kathmandu's fancy department stores
where almost all the stuff comes imported.

Unlike the hated god-so-awful Marwaris, who take all their money "back" to
India by milking Nepal dry, corrupt Nepali karmacharis are true
nationalists. They keep all their money in Nepal. Inside Nepal. Within
Nepal. Probably in a vault. Somewhere deep and dark.

What can I say? I salute such nationalistic, patriotic and, I
suppose, "Nepali-economy-helping" corrupt karmacharis.

Nepali econonomy needs more of such corrupt BUT nationalistic, and
patriotic Nepali karmacharis than the hated Marwaris who can obviously
make money (in Nepali rupees) in Nepal and take -- I suppose, lock, stock
and barrel -- bundles of those Nepali rupees to India, where they will not
be able to use them to do anything.

Rupesh Pradhan

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Nov 5, 1997, 3:00:00 AM11/5/97

to

On Mon, 3 Nov 1997, S. M. Sainju wrote:

> rupesh ji, you also attacked me by personal email before....

Let me APOLOGIZE to you in this public forum that if I ever sent you a
copy of my SCN posting personally through your email, I did so in
accident. The software I use is such that sometimes one can just make an
unintentional mistake and have a copy of the answer forwarded to the
author of the original posting. Perhaps I did that, and if I did, I am
reeeeeeeeealy sorry that I hit that sensitive nerve of yours. I mean
that really. I hate to see people pissed at me...especially for small
unintentional mistakes that I sometimes make.

> when you assume, you make ass out of you and me.

I don't if I made an ass of myself, but you certainly just made an ass of
yourself. Perhaps you need to look at emoticons in my posting? Being a
computer scientist, I am sure, you realize that when a :) appears...you
are suppose to take it lightly with humor...I thought Ashu reminded you of
that a while ago!

> This discussion meant to bring some awareness to all
> of us who are interested in seeing what's been happening out there in the
> field but rather it turned out to be a personal warfare blaming each other.
> this ain't gonna do no good to any of us.

First of all, looking at the very sophisticatedly argued (almost
scholarly) postings from Ashu, Bikash, Joel, Ajay and others tell me that
this discussion still continues to be lively and constructive...and far
from personal.

But on the other hand, if you think I am blaming you PERSONALLY because I
criticize your VIEWS, then I have nothing to say. I feel that you are
being a narrow-minded, unwise, hypocrtical and everything else when you
want to promote "white" investors in Nepal while being unfair toward our
own Nepali entrepreneurs/investors (who happen to be of Indian descent or
who just look like Indians but really come from the Terai). And that's
exactly what I meant. If attacking this view of yours is being personal to
you, the problem is yours, not mine! I am still the same happy person. :)

Rupesh

Sanjay Shrestha

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Nov 6, 1997, 3:00:00 AM11/6/97

to

ngawang sherpa wrote:

> Sanjay Shrestha drew a very unfair comparison between corrupt and almost
> "marvaris" and the corrupt "sarkaari karmacharis". Apart from the
> absolute necessity of corruption for the "karmacharis", please do note
> where the money made through corruption goes in the end. With the

> "karmacharis", the money stays in Nepal where as with the "marvaris", the
> money made in the process goes over the border into India.

How can Ngawang Sherpa be so sure that the money(ghush) earned by the
karmacharis stays in Nepal. Refering to Ashutosh's point, I believe the
money is spent on Pajero, TV, VCR, Microwave, and other electronic
items. It is spent on offspring's educational expenses round the
planet, it is spent on srimati's shopping spree abroad. So, where does
the money end up being deposited. No, not at our National Treasury, nor
at the bank account of some "would be" fortunate domestic business
institution(s).
Its crystal clear that the karmacharis' "ill-earned" money ends up in
the exporting nation's account. CORRUPTION IS WRONG, IMMORAL,
UNETHICAL, doesn't matter where the money goes. Its just to compare
corrupt marwaris with corrupt karmacharis. The former makes an unlawful
and unethical offer, the other accepts it. When both has a similar
trait/behavior (corruption), how can we not compare them. I would blame
the karmacharis rather; instead of being a responsible administrator,
they are ones encouraging and ignoring illegal business transactions.
If one "marwari" makes a better off the legal system, hundreds more will
be inclined to do so. There is a saying in Nepali "aruu ko keash maa
jumra harnu pahila, afnoe dhand maa bhaisi harnu," something like this,
not quite accurate. Anyway, what I am trying to say is that, we must
first revamp our administrative system which is in perils, then blaming
the "bideshi" marwari comes secondary. Had the karmacharis not been
corrupt, the marwaris would be less inclined to corrupt business
practices. Instead of accepting the "ghush," they could have filed
charges on these marwaris for intent of bribery.

Now, now, my dear countrymen, don't get me wrong. I am against the
corrupt "marwaris" as much as I am against corrupt "karmacharis." The
question remains: how can we eliminate corruption with the
administrative system, which inturn would discourage illegal and corrupt
business transactions among marwaris as well as other businessmen and
institutions?

> The accusation about the immoral business practices coming from India is
> not baseless at all. Just go to Thamel and see the difference. If you had
> been there ten years back, you would see the tourists just mingling
> around. However today, they simply do not have that luxery due to
> constant harassment from vendors which include both Nepalese and Indians.
> By the way, let us not limit the blame to just the "marvaris". Kashmiris
> have been overtaking almost all tourist sector business in Kathmandu, and
> most often, very unfairly.

True we shouldn't blame only the marwaris, we should also blame our
"true/pure" Nepali business people, some of them whom are notorious
smugglers. We should also blame the trader from the northern region
(Manang, Lo Manthang) who are famous for price
discrimination/unstability on their items (Jaadi-butee, precious stones,
tibetian salt, etc.)

> Regarding your arguement about the Nepalese speaking Hindi in Tintin, let
> me tell you that the author of the comic never ventured beyond Europe.
> Some even say that he didn't even step outside his homecountry. Futher
> more, a street child singing Hindi in a movie doesn't make the entire
> country India. According your argument, we should all be Americans now
> because most of the youths in KTM in fact sing English songs, and even
> try to speak England.

I didn't make such statement as above. I did mention that we have
similarities with our southern neighbour, however, I didn't state that
such similarities would make us more of Indians. For example, the
Algerians have so much common with the Morrocans, but it doesn't make an
Algerian a Morrocan.

> Finally, speaking English, or being able to speak English has become a
> social status in Kathmandu, not Hindi. The same concept lies in India.

Its plain Xenocentrism, and hypocrisy.

regards,
Just another well-wisher like you.
Sanjay

Ashutosh Tiwari

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Nov 6, 1997, 3:00:00 AM11/6/97

to

she...@dolphin.upenn.edu (ngawang sherpa) writes:

>I totally agree that nepali rupees is almost worthless in India, and
>elsewhere in the world. That is why we have all the "money-change"
>business in Thamel, and have you ever wondered who ultimately handles
>these foreign currencies at the top of this pyramid of "exchange"?
>Unfortunately, it is mostly Marwaris. And where do you think they take
>this money to?

You can't just open up a "money-exchange" business in Nepal without some sort of a
formal permission from the Rastra Bank. And the Rastra Bank, situated at the top of
"money-exchange" pyramid, is not exactly filled with Marwaris.

Besides, to put it very simply, authorized "money-exchangers" in Thamel have to pay
their own commissions to the Rastra Bank on every dollar/yen/pound exchanged, and
further pay income tax to the Depatment of Taxation. More commissions from such
money-changing operations means that the Rastra Bank too gets to enhance its 'foreign
currency' reserve, while more revenue via Tax Department also helps the government.

"Money-exchange", regardless of its scale, has almost always been a lucrative
business. And it's not surprising to know that some Marwaris -- like entrepreneurs
sensing profits anywhere -- are in this business in Kathmandu. Instead of slamming the
Marwaris all the time, in a rather "I-hate-marwaris-period" manner, another way of
probing the same issue would be: What's stopping many of our non-Marwari Nepalis to
open their "money-changing" businesses and make money? After all, surely the Rastra
Bank hasn't exactly handed out a monopoly to the Marwaris alone?

In Thamel, re: another example you gave earlier, the Kashmiris were able to convince
Thamel-area ko landlords that they could provide more rent every month. This got the
attention of Nepali landlords, who then wasted no time in kicking out their Nepali
tenants.

Since then, the ousted Nepali tenants, feeling hurt and bruised, have been doing their
best to "fight" with Kashmiris whenever they can. In sadness, however, their
beligerent, "I-hate-Kashmiris" approach" has harmed themselves -- the former Nepali
tenants -- all the more, and today they've been reduced to seeing more and more
Kashmiris coming in and setting shops at places where their business were previously
thriving.

One thing I cannot understand is that why those evicted tenants don't approach the
Thamel Tourist Development Committete (headed by Tejendra Shrestha), and ask the
committee to look into LEGAL ways to make sure that when a Thamel-area ko landlord
signs a formal property-rental contract with a Nepali party for a period of time, then
that Nepali landlord can't just throw out that Nepali party in the middle of a
year just because some Kashmiris show up with a larger purse.

On one level, the Kashmiris are taking advantage of Thamel's or indeed Kathmandu's not
having a legally enforceable landlord-tenant laws; on the other level, the Nepali
landlords too are taking advantage of the absence of such laws. Both are doing NOTHING
illegal, and both want to make more money quickly.

(Aside: I suspect that TTDC wouldn't be interested in such claims partly because
people who run the TTDC themselves are some of the largest property-owners in Thamel,
and, as property-owners, they have more to gain from Kashmiris than from their
fellow-Nepali tenants. Profits, after all, drive businesses more fast than mere
patriotism, or compatriotism alone).

>Secondly, the choice we have is lesser of the evils. Out of this
>corrupted system we have in KTM, who do want the beneficiaries to be?
>Corrupt Nepali officials, or corrupt Indian Marwaris?

The beneficiaries of a corrupt karmachari are his own srimati and saakha-santan, and
maybe his domestic noker -- NOT the Nepali janata as a whole. The family of a corrupt
karmachari do NOT have to work hard to make their money, do not have to provide jobs
to other people. All they had to do was siphon public money to their private vault in
the name of "sarkari talab lay khanai pug.daina".

One becomes a karmachari NOT to milk the public but to serve and uphold their
interests. Else, why become a karmachari?

With regard to the Marwaris, however, let me say these.

1. First, many of the big-name Marwaris have lived in Nepal for three to four
generations. And this is a fact. Most of them them have Nepali citizenship, and travel
abraod on Nepali passports. Most of them, like Banwari Lal Mittal, even speak Newari
fluently, along with English, Nepali and Hindi. (aside: maybe their linguistic
abilities may have a lot to do with their business success.). One of them Shanker
Kedia is even a member of the Upper House. Many Marwaris send their kids to secondary
schools in Kathmandu and Lalitpur, and, later, also to People's Campus/ Shanker Dev
Campus.

2. There are many Nepali businessmen who can easily be MISTAKEN as being "maday". An
example is: Vijay Shah, who owns the Jawalakhel Distillery. Vijay's home in the Tarai,
but he's as Nepali as you and me, and is quite jovially entreprenurial.

3. Not all Marwaris are doing business of "corrupt commission": One of my friends
Bikash Rauniyar shunned family business, and is now a most famous photo-journalist in
Nepal. There are other Marwaris involved in all kinds of things. Some are running
schools; some are running internet-service providers; some are school-teachers,
some are doctors and engineers and so forth.

4. I think "bashing a maday" serves as some sort of a catharsis for most Nepalis. A
"maday's success" in "hamro desh" is nothing more than a leitmotif for other Nepali's
own failures -- real and imagined.

I wonder when we are are going to rise up from this sort of level of "maday-bashing"
so that it lulls us all the more from doing things really matter: Like doing our own
sano-sano kaam whenever possible.

>Finally, the issues are not that of nationalism and patriotism. The
>issues are that of common sense and one's ethical priorities regarding
>his/her place of origin and sense of identity.

OK. If you are so concerned about lining up one's ethical priorities regarding his/her
place of origin and sense of identity, then tell me -- quite simply -- what made
Tenzing Norgay, a heroic native of Nepal, die as an Indian? While you are thinking
about this, let me say that I, for one, do NOT think that Tenzing was a
corrupt/immoral individual.

STCD

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Nov 6, 1997, 3:00:00 AM11/6/97

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This is a test,

Sanjay Shrestha

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Nov 7, 1997, 3:00:00 AM11/7/97

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WELL SAID, ASHUTOSH. I SECOND YOUR STATEMENT.

SANJAY

ngawang sherpa

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Nov 7, 1997, 3:00:00 AM11/7/97

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: >issues are that of common sense and one's ethical priorities regarding

: >his/her place of origin and sense of identity.

: OK. If you are so concerned about lining up one's ethical priorities regarding his/her
: place of origin and sense of identity, then tell me -- quite simply -- what made
: Tenzing Norgay, a heroic native of Nepal, die as an Indian? While you are thinking
: about this, let me say that I, for one, do NOT think that Tenzing was a
: corrupt/immoral individual.

I am sorry but isn't this an entirely different issue? The reasons why
Tenzing went to India are probably more than what we tend to assume. And
FYI, he used to operate as a guide from India, not from KTM, not from
Khumbu, and not from any other part of Nepal well ahead of the final
ascent.
Anyway, for our argument's
sake, we are talking about the influence of marwaris on the method of
business transactions in Nepal, and who ultimately benefit from this
practice. We are not talking about a "nepalese" hero moving to another
country, and us questioning this move after more than half a century.
Whatever he did, let us agree the fact that he was the first person to
bring out the world attention to nepal. For this reason alone, let us
not start questioning about the event that happened before most of us
were born. But if you really want to continue this topic, do bring out
other references such as Shyam Thapa.

NG.Karsang Sherpa
University of Pennsylvania,
GSFA, Department of Architecture
207 Meyerson Hall
Philadelphia, PA 19104--6311

ngawang sherpa

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Nov 8, 1997, 3:00:00 AM11/8/97

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: Besides, there is no need for you or anybody else to defend Tenzing's dying as a
: citizen of India. I think Tenzing, being a mere mortal like all of us, was simply
: responding to incentives and opportunities that were available to him, and to live in
: India was his choice. Now some people may condemn Tenzing for that, but that's their
: problem, not Tenzing's or his family's.

How can you say that? Do you know him, or are you part of his family to
put yourself at that position? Surely it will be a problem to any one of
Tenzing's family if someone comdemns him. For god's sake, are you trying
to tell me that it won't be your problem if someone comdemns a very close
relative of yours?
The whole thing sounds really hypocritical, especially as you started by
saying " Tenzing, being a mere mortal like all of us." Let's be realistic
here.

--

ngawang sherpa

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Nov 8, 1997, 3:00:00 AM11/8/97

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Distribution:

Ashutosh Tiwari (tiw...@login6.fas.harvard.edu) wrote:

: You can't just open up a "money-exchange" business in Nepal without some sort of a

: formal permission from the Rastra Bank. And the Rastra Bank, situated at the top of
: "money-exchange" pyramid, is not exactly filled with Marwaris.

Is this hypocrisy or pure misunderstanding? The "money-exchange" business
I am talking about is the illegal monetary exchange that goes in almost
all the tourist sector industries in Nepal. Are you trying to tell me
that doesn't exist? Or are you trying to tell me that is unheard of?
Ask any tourist who has gone to KTM, and he/she would probably have a
higher chance of beating Mike Tyson in a boxing ring than not to
encounter someone going "change?" in Thamel. Please see the reality here,

: In Thamel, re: another example you gave earlier, the Kashmiris were able to convince

: Thamel-area ko landlords that they could provide more rent every month. This got the
: attention of Nepali landlords, who then wasted no time in kicking out their Nepali
: tenants.

If you are one of the landlords there, would you rent your rooms to
Kashmiris who would pay a higher price or would you sacrifice that profit
margin and rent to fellow nepalese. Personally, I don't blame the
landlords in this case. It is BUSINESS we are talking about here and I
certainly don't blame the landlords.

: 3. Not all Marwaris are doing business of "corrupt commission": One of my friends

: Bikash Rauniyar shunned family business, and is now a most famous photo-journalist in
: Nepal. There are other Marwaris involved in all kinds of things. Some are running
: schools; some are running internet-service providers; some are school-teachers,
: some are doctors and engineers and so forth.

Let's be realistic. Is there any ethnic group in the group where everone
has pure characteristics of the stereotypical image of that group? Is
everyone of Newar and Thakali entrepreneual? Are all the Kenyan
marathoners? Are all the Sherpas good in mountainclimbing? Come on, it is
the general characteristics we are talking about here. And of course
there will always be exceptions.

: 4. I think "bashing a maday" serves as some sort of a catharsis for most Nepalis. A

: "maday's success" in "hamro desh" is nothing more than a leitmotif for other Nepali's
: own failures -- real and imagined.
: I wonder when we are are going to rise up from this sort of level of "maday-bashing"
: so that it lulls us all the more from doing things really matter: Like doing our own
: sano-sano kaam whenever possible.

Please learn to be more perceptible. Your perception about "maday
bashing" has a very aggressive tone, and that is certainly not what I am
trying to put forward. The point here is acceptance, and acting
accordingly. Acceping the fact that most of the Nepalese are not as
entrepreneual as the marwaris. You have seen that, I have seen that.
Therefore, all I am trying to say that there should be some kind of
limitation so that the Nepalese businessmen have a fair share of the
ground to compete.

Ashutosh Tiwari

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Nov 8, 1997, 3:00:00 AM11/8/97

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she...@dolphin.upenn.edu (ngawang sherpa) writes:

>: >issues are that of common sense and one's ethical priorities regarding

>: >his/her place of origin and sense of identity.

>: OK. If you are so concerned about lining up one's ethical priorities regarding his/her
>: place of origin and sense of identity, then tell me -- quite simply -- what made
>: Tenzing Norgay, a heroic native of Nepal, die as an Indian? While you are thinking
>: about this, let me say that I, for one, do NOT think that Tenzing was a
>: corrupt/immoral individual.

>I am sorry but isn't this an entirely different issue? The reasons why

>Tenzing went to India are probably more than what we tend to assume. And
>FYI, he used to operate as a guide from India, not from KTM, not from
>Khumbu, and not from any other part of Nepal well ahead of the final
>ascent.

Tenzing's personal history is not the issue here.

The idea is to point out that each of us, whether you are Tenzing Norgay, Shyam Thapa,
Nepali Marwari or Joe Smith, responds to incentives that give us opportunities to
better our lives in ways we define what that 'betterment' is for each of us. Some seek
that betterment in Nepal, some in America, some in India, and some in Indra-chowk.

Marwaris came to Nepal two to three generations ago, became bona fide citizens, ran
business, made tons of money . . . provided jobs to many people, and we should all AT
LEAST -- if only grudgingly -- ACCEPT their sense of enterprise, energy,
entrepreneurial drive and so forth, and SEE if the rest of us too can learn those
'positive' things for ourselves.

Sure, some of the Marwaris may be rotten to the core. But just because there are some
rotten Marwari businessmen (as there are some rotten bahun businessmen or some rotten
Newar businessmen or some rotten Thakali businessmen and so on), we cannot just go on
to always pounce that THEREFORE ALL Marwaris are like this bad or that bad. I mean, we
Nepalis have been doing this sort of easy and facile "marwari-bashing" for many years
(to use Rupesh's phrase from one of his TKP articles) over STAR BEER (which. BTW, is
owned by a Marwari) in some bhatti or gazal restaurant, and, look, how much business
progress the marwari-bashing Nepalis have really made? Not much. So, what does that
tell us?

It's time we gave up bashing the Marwaris all the time, and used our energies to
become COMPETENT in many business-related fields ourselves. After all, if ethnic
Nepali businessmen can't compete with the Nepali Marwaris on the COMPETENCY of the
services and the QUALITY of products offered in the marketplace, then their
attributing the achievements of Nepali Marwaris to alleged "corrupt business
practices" shows their own cowaradice and prejudice.

> Anyway, for our argument's
>sake, we are talking about the influence of marwaris on the method of
>business transactions in Nepal, and who ultimately benefit from this
>practice. We are not talking about a "nepalese" hero moving to another
>country, and us questioning this move after more than half a century.
>Whatever he did, let us agree the fact that he was the first person to
>bring out the world attention to nepal. For this reason alone, let us
>not start questioning about the event that happened before most of us
>were born. But if you really want to continue this topic, do bring out
>other references such as Shyam Thapa.

Well, just because much of history happened before either of us was born, that in no
way means we should stop questioning it. I mean, what sort of historical study are you
advocating? That we question stuff that happened only after the '70s? Get real.

Ashutosh Tiwari

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Nov 9, 1997, 3:00:00 AM11/9/97

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she...@dolphin.upenn.edu (ngawang sherpa) writes:

>: Besides, there is no need for you or anybody else to defend Tenzing's dying as a

>: citizen of India. I think Tenzing, being a mere mortal like all of us, was simply
>: responding to incentives and opportunities that were available to him, and to live in
>: India was his choice. Now some people may condemn Tenzing for that, but that's their
>: problem, not Tenzing's or his family's.

>How can you say that? Do you know him, or are you part of his family to >put yourself

at that position? Surely it will be a problem to any one of >Tenzing's family if
someone comdemns him. For god's sake, are you trying >to tell me that it won't be your
problem if someone comdemns a very close >relative of yours? >The whole thing sounds

really hypocritical, especially as you started by >saying " Tenzing, being a mere

mortal like all of us." Let's be realistic >here.

Well, I am saying that just as there are Marwaris (originally from what is now India)
who've been living in Nepal for two to three generations or more, and who are now bona
fide Nepali citizens, there ARE ethnic Nepalis who have been living all over India for
two to three (or more) generations and who are now bona fide Indian citizens.

People change countries (i.e. permanently migrate) for various reasons depending on
how they would like to BETTER their own lives. Marwaris who came to Nepal were no
exceptions; they came to better their own lot, and by most accounts, they HAVE
improved their lot. If anything, that's a tribute to their hardwork, drive, team-work
and so forth.

Sure, to this day, some of the Marwaris may have an affection for India. Though you
may personally find that irritating, how is that really different from
second-generation Nepalis in California, Hong Kong or Brunei showing off their
affection for Nepal by various ways?

I used Tenzing's example to emphasize the fact that that even bona fide national and
international heroe, being mortals like everyone else, are susceptible to the forces
of self-interest over narrow nationalism and parochial patriotism.

Tenzing lived in India and directed, Darjeeling's Himalayan Mountaineering Insititute
-- the organization that produced many more mountain-climbers. Had he lived and worked
in Nepal, he probably wouldn't have gotten -- for various reasons -- opportunities to
continue making more specific contributions to his field. (Notice the fate of Sundaray
Sherpa who died of alcoholism, and Ang Rita Sherpa who thinks that the government
hasn't done anything for him, though he does gets a monthly allowance of 5000
rupees.

Patriotism and nationalism are wonderful to create myths and stories that will warm
our hearts. But sadly, they alone don't put food on a 'thaal' for most Nepalis.

Rupesh Pradhan

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Nov 9, 1997, 3:00:00 AM11/9/97

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On 8 Nov 1997, ngawang sherpa wrote:

> ...

> Therefore, all I am trying to say that there should be some kind of
> limitation so that the Nepalese businessmen have a fair share of the
> ground to compete.

I strongly believe that Marwaris have lived in, worked for, have interest
in Nepal enough that it does not make sense to treat them as foreigners
anymore. You may disagree, you may agree. No matter. That is besides the
point.

The point, however, is: isn't it time for us to start doing something
ourselves instead of bitching about the success of marwaris? As Ashu said
"maday bashing" is just a leitmotif for our own economic failures. Now Mr
Sherpa wants protection for Nepali businessmen! Protection against what?
I wonder.

Excuses, excuses! When will we learn, when will we learn?

Just to add to this discussion on successful entrepreneurs versus the rest
of us: The Tibetian refugees who came to Nepal just a generation ago have
also shown remarkable economic prosperity compared to the rest of the
country. They had less to start off with, they were victims of foreign
aggression in their own country. If anyone is a foreigner in Nepal, it is
these tibetian refugees. Yet they have come to our country, worked hard
and, in general, made more fortune than the rest of us who have lived
there for centuries.

Now it seems it is the turn of the Kashmiris.

How come it is always the foreigners who come to Nepal and make progress
(even without any sort of protection against predatory competitors that Mr
Sherpa seems to be so afraid of)? Does that say anything about the
"natives" --whoever they are?

Of course the truth would hurt our Gorkhe pride.

Rupesh

Ashutosh Tiwari

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Nov 10, 1997, 3:00:00 AM11/10/97

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I received this from a fellow Nepali, and thought this might be worth sharing with
all. ashu
---------

To: Ashutosh Tiwari <tiw...@fas.harvard.edu>
Subject: Re: business institution
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nepal

Ashutosh Tiwari wrote:
> If you are saying that ONLY Marwaris are in this particular illegal business, then I
> disagree with you, for I know very well that there ARE many non-Marwari Nepalis too,
> active in this particularly illegal but lucrative business in Thamel and elsewhere in
> Kathmandu.

I think, Mr Tiwari, instead of asking Mr. Sherpa to go and check his
ealier posting you should have done it first. For in one of his postings
Mr. Sherpa quotes "...unfortunately, it is mostly Marwaris..." As far as
I understand, I don't think Mr. Sherpa here meant to say that "...ONLY
Marwaris are in this particular illegal business...".

> A crime, after all, is a crime, right? In this particular
> case, the ethnic Nepalis along with the Nepali Marwaris should be nailed for
> committing a crime.

Yes a crime is a crime after all. Ideally, crime whether committed by a
Marwari or a non-Marwari should be the same. But in reality it isn't.
Suppose two kids were to get into a fight and one of the kid's mother
comes along, who do you think will the mother bash, her own kid or the
other one? I think the point Mr. Sherpa here is trying to convey is it
is not a matter of whether the crime was committed by a Marwari or not
but a case of a mother trying to protect her child. I know its wrong,
morally, ethically and legally, but we human beings don't always behave
in a rational way, do we?

> I mean, all this time, what had we been talking about besides business?

You're right about that.

> >Let's be realistic. Is there any ethnic group in the group where everone
> >has pure characteristics of the stereotypical image of that group? Is
> >everyone of Newar and Thakali entrepreneual? Are all the Kenyan
> >marathoners? Are all the Sherpas good in mountainclimbing? Come on, it is
> >the general characteristics we are talking about here. And of course
> >there will always be exceptions.
>

> Fine. If I understand you right, based on all your postings in this thread, "the
> general characteristics" of the Nepali Marwaris that you, Mr. Sherpa, see are: a) They
> are corrupt; b) they are corrupt; and c) they are corrupt.

No. "The general characteristics" of the Nepali Marwaris that Mr. Sherpa
here is tyring to convey (Mr. Sherpa tell me if I am wrong) is:
a)a Marwari could be corrupt,
b)a Marwari could be straight and honest ,
c)but most probably a Marwari will be corrupt

> Well, on the one hand, you accept that (A) "most of the Nepalese are not as
> entrepreneurial as the marwaris." On the other hand, (B) you advocate that there be
> "some kind of limitation [on the marwaris]".
>
> For all I know, you are probably saying something very profound and deep here.
> I'll accept that it's my fault when I say that I fail to understand how you go about
> reconciling your position A with your position B.

You fail to understand how one can go about reconciling position A with
position B because you and Mr. Sherpa are looking at the same thing from
different angles, hence what you see is in a way different from what Mr.
Sherpa is seeing. You are looking at the whole situation from a rational
and economical point of view. For you if A is a better entrepreneur than
B then A should be given more preference in business than B. But for Mr.
Sherpa it doesn't matter whether A is a better entrepreneur than B, if A
is someone you dislike then there should be limitations on the
businesses that A is allowed to perform. Both are valid arguments. Yours
is more logical, though.

Ashutosh Tiwari

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Nov 10, 1997, 3:00:00 AM11/10/97

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tiw...@login2.fas.harvard.edu (Ashutosh Tiwari) writes:

As Rupesh has pointed out again, Nepali Marwaris have lived in Nepal for many years
now. So much so that most big-name Marwaris in Nepal are now bona fide Nepali
citizens. As Nepali citizens, they are now as much 'kids' of Nepal Aama as the rest of
'us'-- enjoying the same rights and privileges that Nepali citizenship offers. This
simple fact may rankle many of us, making many of us angry.

But as citizens of a democratic country, the rest of 'us' should at least learn to
accept that Nepal Aama's laws and regulations apply EQUALLY to Nepali Marwaris as it
applies to non-Marwari Nepalis. As such, Nepali Marwaris are no longer "the other kid"
that Nepal Aama has to bash up; legally, they are 'one of us' now, Nepal Aama's own
kids. And we only show our petty gorkhay prejudice when we STILL categorize Nepali
'one of them' who somehow deserve 'bashing up' so that the rest of ud be 'protected'.

Mr. Sherpa is entitled to his opinion, of course. But what sort of thinking is this
when someone like Mr. Sherpa says/indicates that just because he DISLIKEs somebody,
there "should be limitations" on their ability to do businesses?

-----------

To sum up: We need more "marwaris" in Nepal. By "marwaris" (in quotes), I adopt
Rupesh's definition in that I mean people who do business. These people could be
Marwaris, Tharus, Sherpas, Germans or who-ever. Many businesses, big or small, are
needed to produce goods and services, to provide jobs, to help the economy, and so
forth. In this context, the least we can do is respect and learn from those (such as
the Marwaris, Tibetans, Thakalis) as to how do business well in Nepal.

The role of the Nepali state should be to strengthen democracy by ways of compulsory
public education, accessible health care, market-friendly policies, and above all, by
enforcing the rule of law.

One major trouble with the Nepali state is that the government PROMISES the moon,
tries to do everything by itself by NOT trusting the janata ko remarkable sense of
enterprise, repeatedly bungles everything it does, and FOOLISHLY tries to 'control'
the markets by various distortionary measures that do more harm to the Nepali economy
than help it. (Aside: Nepal's one-window policies for foreign investors work so
ridiculously in practice that they've been likened to 'ankhi-jhyal policies' with
holes all over.)

ngawang sherpa

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Nov 10, 1997, 3:00:00 AM11/10/97

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<63t3m6$4jt$1...@news.fas.harvard.edu> <642nm5$csa$1...@netnews.upenn.edu>
<Pine.A41.3.95L.97110...@login0.isis.unc.edu>

: Just to add to this discussion on successful entrepreneurs versus the rest

: of us: The Tibetian refugees who came to Nepal just a generation ago have
: also shown remarkable economic prosperity compared to the rest of the
: country. They had less to start off with, they were victims of foreign
: aggression in their own country. If anyone is a foreigner in Nepal, it is
: these tibetian refugees. Yet they have come to our country, worked hard
: and, in general, made more fortune than the rest of us who have lived
: there for centuries.

I am glad you touched on the Tibetans. Well, let's see what they have
done, and what has eventually happened in Nepal. Before the Tibetans
came, there was no such thing as carpet business in Nepal. The Tibetans
brought that along, and that surely benefitted a lot of Nepalese,
especially the illeterates who could find jobs as carpet-weavers. And
that kind of gave a mini-boom to the Nepalese economy for a while. Now Mr.
Pradhan, do you know one of the reasons why that boom crashed couple of
years back? You probably have that knowledge already, but let me repeat.
One of the reasons was the the quality of wool that was used. Previously,
all the wool came from Tibet. But after marwaris started getting into
this business, the wool started coming from India, and this particular
wool happened to be really low in quality. Obviously, it wasn't long
before Nepalese carpets started being labeled as poor quality ones.
Now before tempers flaring for blaming the marwaris, let me note that
this is not the only reason, but definitely the main one.--

: How come it is always the foreigners who come to Nepal and

make progress
: (even without any sort of protection against predatory
competitors that Mr
: Sherpa seems to be so afraid of)? Does that say anything about
the
: "natives" --whoever they are?

Well my friend, the "natives" of KTM where all this business is going on
is obviously not Bahun, not Chhetris, not marwaris, not Sherpas, but
Newars. And in fact they are the ones sufferring from the advancement of
marwaris and Kashmiris on a level of entreuprenuership that I see as
being unfair. But of course, this view is personal and subjective. If you
believe the other way, that is not my problem. And it is certainly not my
problem that the outsiders succeed. The problem that I see is the
insiders sufferring. And that is where I believe the competition is
unfair. Well, perhaps I am going too far since even the newars themselves
tend to see the current situation as being fair and any kind of
interruption or control beyond normal logic and unacceptable.

smsainju

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Nov 10, 1997, 3:00:00 AM11/10/97

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sorry pal, your off the wall. a copy of the mail you sent me was not
posted on the forum and you call it unintensional or accidental?? and
you call me a hypocrate?? do you want me to post it on the forum?? i
will accept your apology if you really mean it. never mind who cares...

hey this is a very popular saying

>
> On Mon, 3 Nov 1997, S. M. Sainju wrote:
>
> > rupesh ji, you also attacked me by personal email before....
>
> Let me APOLOGIZE to you in this public forum that if I ever sent you a
> copy of my SCN posting personally through your email, I did so in
> accident. The software I use is such that sometimes one can just make an
> unintentional mistake and have a copy of the answer forwarded to the
> author of the original posting. Perhaps I did that, and if I did, I am
> reeeeeeeeealy sorry that I hit that sensitive nerve of yours. I mean
> that really. I hate to see people pissed at me...especially for small
> unintentional mistakes that I sometimes make.
>

> > when you assume, you make ass out of you and me.
>
> I don't if I made an ass of myself, but you certainly just made an ass of
> yourself. Perhaps you need to look at emoticons in my posting?

hmm. it is a cliche' when you assume, you make ass out of u and me. you
made some assumptions about me.

Being a
> computer scientist, I am sure, you realize that when a :) appears...you

wow???? what does it mean??? can you explain a little more???
appears what???

> are suppose to take it lightly with humor...I thought Ashu

are supposed to take it lightly with humor???

reminded you of
> that a while ago!
>
> > This discussion meant to bring some awareness to all
> > of us who are interested in seeing what's been happening out there in the
> > field but rather it turned out to be a personal warfare blaming each other.
> > this ain't gonna do no good to any of us.
>
> First of all, looking at the very sophisticatedly argued (almost
> scholarly) postings from Ashu, Bikash, Joel, Ajay and others tell me that
> this discussion still continues to be lively and constructive...and far
> from personal.
>
> But on the other hand, if you think I am blaming you PERSONALLY because I
> criticize your VIEWS, then I have nothing to say. I feel that you are
> being a narrow-minded, unwise, hypocrtical and everything else when you
> want to promote "white" investors in Nepal while being unfair toward our
> own Nepali entrepreneurs/investors (who happen to be of Indian descent or
> who just look like Indians but really come from the Terai). And that's
> exactly what I meant. If attacking this view of yours is being personal to
> you, the problem is yours, not mine! I am still the same happy person. :)
>
> Rupesh

--

Ashutosh Tiwari

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Nov 11, 1997, 3:00:00 AM11/11/97

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she...@dolphin.upenn.edu (ngawang sherpa) writes:

>: Just to add to this discussion on successful entrepreneurs versus the rest
>: of us: The Tibetian refugees who came to Nepal just a generation ago have
>: also shown remarkable economic prosperity compared to the rest of the
>: country. They had less to start off with, they were victims of foreign
>: aggression in their own country. If anyone is a foreigner in Nepal, it is
>: these tibetian refugees. Yet they have come to our country, worked hard
>: and, in general, made more fortune than the rest of us who have lived
>: there for centuries.

>I am glad you touched on the Tibetans. Well, let's see what they have
>done, and what has eventually happened in Nepal. Before the Tibetans
>came, there was no such thing as carpet business in Nepal. The Tibetans
>brought that along, and that surely benefitted a lot of Nepalese,
>especially the illeterates who could find jobs as carpet-weavers. And
>that kind of gave a mini-boom to the Nepalese economy for a while. Now Mr.
>Pradhan, do you know one of the reasons why that boom crashed couple of
>years back? You probably have that knowledge already, but let me repeat.
>One of the reasons was the the quality of wool that was used. Previously,
>all the wool came from Tibet. But after marwaris started getting into
>this business, the wool started coming from India, and this particular
>wool happened to be really low in quality. Obviously, it wasn't long
>before Nepalese carpets started being labeled as poor quality ones.
>Now before tempers flaring for blaming the marwaris, let me note that
>this is not the only reason, but definitely the main one.--

Here goes Mr. Sherpa again, blaming the marwaris with easy, facile, 'heard-on-the-street'
type of thinking. His reasoning sounds intuitively appealing, and resonates so well with
our gorkhay pride, but, alas, that reasoning is so specious.

The largest single buyer of Nepal-made carpets was and is Germany. It's only recently that
Nepal's carpet sahus have actively started to seek other countries as customers. Two to
three years ago, Germany was reeling under its own economic problems, which -- coupled
with the negative publicity Nepali carpet industry garnered in Germany on the 'child
labor' issue -- helped the demand for Nepal-made carpets nosedive there. When your largest
single buyer does not buy your carpets, obviously your inventory goes up, your costs
escalate, and your industry faces tough a tough time. At the time, the Nepali carpet
industry, dependent as it was on one single large buyer, was not agile enough to seek new
markets quickly. So, orders did not come, and loads of carpets were stacked up in
warehouses in Nepal.

In addition, Nepali carpets -- when Nepal's country-quota system for Nepal had been
abolished -- had to compete with carpets from other countries, i.e. those from India, Iran
and other places in an OPEN market (much like the case in Nepal's 'garment industry'), and
Nepali carpets could not hustle their market-share as fast as those of other countries.
(Now our carpet sahus have a much better hustling strategy in place.)

Why would Marwaris produce export-garne carpets with bad quality ko wool? Since their
customers were not INSIDE Nepal, how would they really benefit from exporting bad quality
ko carpets? More to the point, how would their bad quality ko carpets pass through Nepal's
quality-control system, which was and is actually manned by BOTH the representatives of
the Carpet Association of Nepal, and the government? Let's have some faith here. Nepali
carpet sahus were and are not so stupid as to let some Marwaris come in and EXPORT bad
quality ko carpets from Nepal to the point whereby those Marwari-made carpets end up
RUINING the entire reputation of Nepal-made carpets.

There's an FNCCI report on Nepal's carpet industry and markets that Mr. Sherpa may want to
get from Nepal and study at his leisure.

Rupesh Pradhan

unread,

Nov 11, 1997, 3:00:00 AM11/11/97

to

______________________________________________
Dear SCN Readers,

I would have loved to take care of these personal charges made by SM
Sainju against me off this newgroup, and deal with it just between the two
of us. I don't see why the rest of us should have to deal with something
that seems to be increasingly devoid of any intellectual substance or
public relevance.

In fact, I had promised myself that I would not bother to respond to any
personal attacks made by Sainju anymore and just limit myself to valid
criticisms made to me on the basis of my arguments. But I just could not
resist this time. So, just one last time, let me indulge. In fact, as I
mentioned above, I would have prefered to get these personal exchanges off
the newgroup, but "ke garne?", I am forced to use this public forum simply
because Sainju-ji seems to prefer this. My sincere apologies to others.

Rupesh
_____________________________________________

Sainju-ji,

On Mon, 10 Nov 1997, smsainju wrote:

> sorry pal, your off the wall. a copy of the mail you sent me was not
> posted on the forum and you call it unintensional or accidental?? and
> you call me a hypocrate?? do you want me to post it on the forum??

Go ahead. If I have sent you any personal email on the topic of "Nepal:
Problems..." and any subsequent discussion chains that did not get posted
on SCN...I urge you to post it. I don't think I have sent you any email to
you exclusively, but I COULD BE WRONG. If I did, I am sorry. (I had no way
of finding out in advance that you could be so immensely offended by an
email in your mailbox anyway...but that is you. Personally, I just hit the
delete button without much fanfare.)

So yes, please go ahead and post any email that I sent you on this topic
that did not also get posted on SCN....I don't think I have told you
anything that is not meant to be shared by the rest of the group.

> > Being a
> > computer scientist, I am sure, you realize that when a :) appears...you

> > [are suppose to take it lightly with humor...]

>
> wow???? what does it mean??? can you explain a little more???
> appears what???

A colon followed by a right parenthesis means a smily face. A writer uses
that if he wants to convey to his readers the jolly, light-hearted and/or
funny nature of his writing. And there are others too. Let me list some of
them with their respective meanings just for you. (Look at them sideways
by turning your head to the left.)

:) smily face

:( frowning face

;) a wink

:D laughter

:x a kiss

:* many kisses

:{) user has a moustache

8) user wears glasses

:p user has his/her tongue stuck out

and many more. These are called "emoticons" and have become standard in
electronic communications.

Rupesh

tam...@pacbell.net

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Nov 11, 1997, 3:00:00 AM11/11/97

to

Ashutosh Tiwari wrote:

......text sniped......
..........I am sorry for my server has limitation on how much text I
could post so I has to sniped all the text...............
Tiwari Jee:

I have been languidly enjoying your omniscient comments on almost every
aspects that's been expressed on the SCN. Your elongated suggestions and
comments from a book review to the Nepali Phd wallas I find it
insightful. I am sure you have been asked this before, but do you
consider going back to Nepal and perhaps involved in the field of
education or commerce? Education and commerce to large extent, I believe,
has been stifled by bureaucracy and incompetency or whatever. We all know
how things ought to be, and what needs done, but where are the purveyors
of intellectual suggestions, PHDes and Harvardians? I have not seen their
tangible contribution to bring the necessary change in Nepal. I woder if
the presentation that was presented by recent Phd student of Harvard
University on women forming a league to ban alchohal from their commnity
was inspired by one of the graduates or the Phd holders.

KungaTshring

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Nov 11, 1997, 3:00:00 AM11/11/97

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ku...@ionet.net (KungaTshring) wrote:

:tiw...@login2.fas.harvard.edu (Ashutosh Tiwari) wrote:

::she...@dolphin.upenn.edu (ngawang sherpa) writes:

:----------------------------------------------------------
:Hi Ashu & Ngawang,

:Let me barge in before this ill tuned discussion makes a wrong turn.
:Let's stop blaming someone or some group for our own misfortunes.

:Ashu, pardon me, but you were wrong on saying that Indian citizens
:would never manufacture low quality rugs. That was exactly what they
:did few years back. Next, they exported these degraded rugs to
:countries like Germany, Spain etc.. via Nepal with a very low price
:tag in hopes of snatching away our rug buyers. German buyers did not
:like its quality, so they had less orders allocated for Nepal.
:Eventually most buyers stopped buying altogether.

:Furthermore, during one of the Carpet Showcase Exhibition in Germany,
:many years back, some Indian business men showed a video of young
:under-aged Nepalese kids weaving rugs, to many potential German
:buyers. This really hurt the carpet industry of Nepal. I'm not saying
:we should blame the eintire southern neighbours for this. There could
:be other factors too, like as you said the ailing economy of Germany
:itself must've contributed to our declining export figures.

:Should we blame these naive rugwallas?Jacob Dylan, when asked on MTV
:as to why they chose "Dishwalla" name for their band, it was
:interesting when he said that these are a group of Indian scavengers
:who would illegally install cable TV for you.

:This was just to crack you two up. :-)

:BTW, Ashu, what did you do with that 'Hardy Boys' novel that I lent
:you at 7th class in St. Xavier's? And, Ngawang, you sure did beat the
:hell out of me at BNKS.
:Or was it the other way round? hehehehe.....

:-kunga

Opps!
It's JR Richards and not Jacob Dylan. ;-)

Ashutosh Tiwari

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Nov 11, 1997, 3:00:00 AM11/11/97

to

>BTW, Ashu, what did you do with that 'Hardy Boys' novel that I lent
>you at 7th class in St. Xavier's?

>-kunga

Guess what? I have that book right here on my shelf. :-) Next time you are in
Boston, let's meet and I can give it back to you :-)

smsainju

unread,

Nov 11, 1997, 3:00:00 AM11/11/97

to

Rupesh,

it is a personal note to you. don't deny it man. you did too man. you
sent
me a personal email and said something. i replied back to you too. don't
post any messages on the newsgroup to claim yourself that you did
right
and i did wrong. you started it. i just wanted to make you aware of
that
so that in future we will not end up in such mess. try to accept your
mistakes. don't just hide behind it. we can learn a lot from our
mistakes. there is a famous saying, "apology is the supper glue of life,
it can fix just about anything."

By the way, thanks for the tips (about the signs). they were interesting
ans i was not aware of those signs.

ss

pokh...@hotmail.com

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Nov 11, 1997, 3:00:00 AM11/11/97

to

In article <646b1n$kju$1...@news.fas.harvard.edu>,

tiw...@login2.fas.harvard.edu (Ashutosh Tiwari) wrote:
>
> >To: Ashutosh Tiwari <tiw...@fas.harvard.edu>
> >Subject: Re: business institution
> >Newsgroups: soc.culture.nepal
>
> >Ashutosh Tiwari wrote:
> >> If you are saying that ONLY Marwaris are in this particular illegal
business, then I
> >> disagree with you, for I know very well that there ARE many non-Marwari
Nepalis too,
> >> active in this particularly illegal but lucrative business in Thamel and
elsewhere in
> >> Kathmandu.
>

<<deleted>>

>
> To sum up: We need more "marwaris" in Nepal. By "marwaris" (in quotes), I
adopt
> Rupesh's definition in that I mean people who do business. These people could
be
> Marwaris, Tharus, Sherpas, Germans or who-ever. Many businesses, big or
small, are
> needed to produce goods and services, to provide jobs,

=====================================================

>to help the economy, and so

============================

One thing, I would like to ask here regarding job oppertunities and
business. There are several Christian Missionaries which are busy in
making christianity propoganda in the name of job, education and what
not. How do interprete this kind of businessman?? Are they cheating us in
the name of job and education, if yes, should not we control them from
going ahead?

They are mostly active in the lower caste villages and other less
educated living areas. Should we make some controls over such
business?

Gyaneswor

> forth. In this context, the least we can do is respect and learn from those
(such as
> the Marwaris, Tibetans, Thakalis) as to how do business well in Nepal.
>
> The role of the Nepali state should be to strengthen democracy by ways of
compulsory
> public education, accessible health care, market-friendly policies, and above
all, by
> enforcing the rule of law.
>
> One major trouble with the Nepali state is that the government PROMISES the
moon,
> tries to do everything by itself by NOT trusting the janata ko remarkable
sense of
> enterprise, repeatedly bungles everything it does, and FOOLISHLY tries to
'control'
> the markets by various distortionary measures that do more harm to the Nepali
economy
> than help it. (Aside: Nepal's one-window policies for foreign investors work
so
> ridiculously in practice that they've been likened to 'ankhi-jhyal policies'
with
> holes all over.)

-------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====-----------------------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Post to Usenet

KungaTshring

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Nov 11, 1997, 3:00:00 AM11/11/97

to

tiw...@login2.fas.harvard.edu (Ashutosh Tiwari) wrote:

:she...@dolphin.upenn.edu (ngawang sherpa) writes:

BTW, Ashu, what did you do with that 'Hardy Boys' novel that I lent

ngawang sherpa

unread,

Nov 12, 1997, 3:00:00 AM11/12/97

to

Ashutosh Tiwari (tiw...@login2.fas.harvard.edu) wrote:
: she...@dolphin.upenn.edu (ngawang sherpa) writes:

: Here goes Mr. Sherpa again, blaming the marwaris with easy, facile, 'heard-on-the-street'

: type of thinking. His reasoning sounds intuitively appealing, and resonates so well with
: our gorkhay pride, but, alas, that reasoning is so specious.

: The largest single buyer of Nepal-made carpets was and is Germany. It's only recently that
: Nepal's carpet sahus have actively started to seek other countries as customers. Two to
: three years ago, Germany was reeling under its own economic problems, which -- coupled
: with the negative publicity Nepali carpet industry garnered in Germany on the 'child
: labor' issue -- helped the demand for Nepal-made carpets nosedive there. When your largest
: single buyer does not buy your carpets, obviously your inventory goes up, your costs
: escalate, and your industry faces tough a tough time. At the time, the Nepali carpet
: industry, dependent as it was on one single large buyer, was not agile enough to seek new
: markets quickly. So, orders did not come, and loads of carpets were stacked up in
: warehouses in Nepal.

: There's an FNCCI report on Nepal's carpet industry and markets that Mr. Sherpa may want to

: get from Nepal and study at his leisure.

Dear Mr. Tiwari,

Thank for the information about the FNCCI. Unfortunately, I don't have
the leisurely time to read all the stuff on the web or newsletters that
you clearly seem to be enjoying. I wish I had as much time as you do to
participate in all the discussion that is going on. I wish I had time to
print the replies, I wish I had time to go over the print-outs at home,
and I wish I had time to write everything on "word" or "word-perfect" and
then I wish I had time to transfer the files to SCN. I definitely envy you.

Before I head back to work, I do want to make one point though. The main
reason why the market for Nepali carpet fell in Germany was not because
of all the stuff about child-labour. The world knows that the so-called
best arabian carpets are mostly done by six-year olds whose eyes are
sharp enough to see all the details. But has that done much damage to its
sale value? I don't think so, and although people claim all the issue
about child labour to be the main culprit behind Nepalese carpet's fall
in the market, the truth is a far cry. It is as mentioned before, the
quality that started coming from Nepal. If it wasn't quality Mr Tiwari,
why has the carpet industry in China boomed when ours kind of doomed?

Anyway, just want to end this note by repeating how much I envy the
amount of time you have for SCN,

Ashutosh Tiwari

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Nov 12, 1997, 3:00:00 AM11/12/97

to

pokh...@hotmail.com writes:

>One thing, I would like to ask here regarding job oppertunities and
>business. There are several Christian Missionaries which are busy in
>making christianity propoganda in the name of job, education and what
>not. How do interprete this kind of businessman?? Are they cheating us in
>the name of job and education, if yes, should not we control them from
>going ahead?

It's a very interesting question. Hadn't thought of that. I guess to adopt a 'safe'
position, one can perhaps say something like: The Christian Missionaries -- whether they
are Nepali citizens or others --should, like everyone else, abide by Nepal's existing laws
and regulations, no matter how much one dislikes or likes those particular set of laws
governing how one may parctice one's religion in Nepal.

Of course, such a stance does not address the larger issues of religious freedom or lack
thereof in Nepal. Nor does it address the relevance or irrelevance of Nepal's
constitutionally-enshrined 'Hindu-ness'. Nor too does it address how one can legally and
practically go about distinguishing between 'good' Christians in Nepal (i.e. to use a
popular understanding, "those who are there as nice visitors and do no proselytizing')
and 'bad' Christians (i.e. "those who are hellbent -- pardon the pun -- on converting
soja-saja garib Nepalis to their particular sects of Christianity").

Perhaps other netters have better ideas.

Ashutosh Tiwari

unread,

Nov 12, 1997, 3:00:00 AM11/12/97

to

she...@dolphin.upenn.edu (ngawang sherpa) writes:

>: Here goes Mr. Sherpa again, blaming the marwaris with easy, facile, 'heard-on-the-street'
>: type of thinking. His reasoning sounds intuitively appealing, and resonates so well with
>: our gorkhay pride, but, alas, that reasoning is so specious.

>: The largest single buyer of Nepal-made carpets was and is Germany. It's only recently that
>: Nepal's carpet sahus have actively started to seek other countries as customers. Two to
>: three years ago, Germany was reeling under its own economic problems, which -- coupled
>: with the negative publicity Nepali carpet industry garnered in Germany on the 'child
>: labor' issue -- helped the demand for Nepal-made carpets nosedive there. When your largest
>: single buyer does not buy your carpets, obviously your inventory goes up, your costs
>: escalate, and your industry faces tough a tough time. At the time, the Nepali carpet
>: industry, dependent as it was on one single large buyer, was not agile enough to seek new
>: markets quickly. So, orders did not come, and loads of carpets were stacked up in
>: warehouses in Nepal.

>: There's an FNCCI report on Nepal's carpet industry and markets that Mr. Sherpa may want to
>: get from Nepal and study at his leisure.

>Dear Mr. Tiwari,

>Thank for the information about the FNCCI. Unfortunately, I don't have
>the leisurely time to read all the stuff on the web or newsletters that
>you clearly seem to be enjoying. I wish I had as much time as you do to
>participate in all the discussion that is going on. I wish I had time to
>print the replies, I wish I had time to go over the print-outs at home,
>and I wish I had time to write everything on "word" or "word-perfect" and
>then I wish I had time to transfer the files to SCN. I definitely envy you.

Mr. Sherpa: There you go again, showing us your pettiness and childishness.
What can I say? Go ahead, and keep on doing it. We'll learn more about you
than about the soundness or the credibility of your ideas.

For your information, I ENJOY writing, debating, and reading a lot. I do that all the
time. I worked as a freelance consultant in Nepal for sometime, and for that I had to read
a lot of Nepali business reports, including the stuff from the FNCCI. So, more than you, a
student at a school of architecture, I generally know what I am talking about when the
stuff is on economics and business -- my areas of interest. (I am sure when it comes to
architecture and urban planning you'll have more interesting to say than I'll ever have!)

Writing on SCN is my way of 'de-stressing' from my everyday challenges, and it works for
me. If you have a problem with that, tough luck. Also, I type very fast. Perhaps you'd
like to envy that too.

Grow up, Mr. Sherpa, we are not in a kindergarten here. Learn to challenge people's
ideas, and NOT their imagined personalities.

ashu

ngawang sherpa

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Nov 14, 1997, 3:00:00 AM11/14/97

to

Distribution:

Ashutosh Tiwari (tiw...@login1.fas.harvard.edu) wrote:
: she...@dolphin.upenn.edu (ngawang sherpa) writes:

: >Thank for the information about the FNCCI. Unfortunately, I don't have

: >the leisurely time to read all the stuff on the web or newsletters that
: >you clearly seem to be enjoying. I wish I had as much time as you do to
: >participate in all the discussion that is going on. I wish I had time to
: >print the replies, I wish I had time to go over the print-outs at home,
: >and I wish I had time to write everything on "word" or "word-perfect" and
: >then I wish I had time to transfer the files to SCN. I definitely envy you.

: For your information, I ENJOY writing, debating, and reading a lot. I do that all the

: time. I worked as a freelance consultant in Nepal for sometime, and for that I had to read
: a lot of Nepali business reports, including the stuff from the FNCCI. So, more than you, a
: student at a school of architecture, I generally know what I am talking about when the
: stuff is on economics and business -- my areas of interest. (I am sure when it comes to
: architecture and urban planning you'll have more interesting to say than I'll ever have!)

Right, so are assuming that you would know more about economics and
business than students in architecture? Just to let you know Mr. Tiwari,
the social and economical aspects of the society do come into
architectural field a lot more than what one assumes.

As for me, I don't want to say my field of interest includes business and
economics. However, I do read a lot about how things are going on around,
and I do always try to put things into the context in Nepal.

Talking about writing, I did use to write for the travel magazine from
the University of Cambridge in England during my undergraduate years. But
hey, I wasn't a " freelance consultant".

: Writing on SCN is my way of 'de-stressing' from my everyday challenges, and it works for

: me. If you have a problem with that, tough luck.

I "absofreakingly" don't have any problems with this. In fact, I do enjoy
your writing, although our ideas do often end up at the opposite poles.

:Also, I type very fast. Perhaps you'd : like to envy that too.

No....no....no....no. Or should I say "naaaaaahhhhhhh......." Although I
don't want to say my typing is fast, it is not slow. In fact, I am one of
the fastest in my group. Naaahhhh.....I definitely would not envy your
typing speed.

: Grow up, Mr. Sherpa, we are not in a kindergarten here. Learn to challenge people's

: ideas, and NOT their imagined personalities.

Thanks buddy, I really thought I was in kindergarten. Thank god, I feel
more grown up and mature now. In fact, I AM LITERALLY grown up. Wow, it
feels great to be out of the kindergarten.

BTW, what do you mean by "imagined personalities?" Perhaps, you would like to begin
by shedding some light on the "imagined personality" of yourself. I don't
mean to be negative here, but hey, who are you to tell me to grow up?

--

pokh...@hotmail.com

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Nov 14, 1997, 3:00:00 AM11/14/97

to

In article <64begd$cmi$1...@netnews.upenn.edu>,
she...@dolphin.upenn.edu (ngawang sherpa) wrote:

>
> Ashutosh Tiwari (tiw...@login2.fas.harvard.edu) wrote:
> : she...@dolphin.upenn.edu (ngawang sherpa) writes:

> <<refer to Ashu and Sherpa's final discussion>>

A few days ago, Ashu replied to my comment on
Dr. before name. He was surprised while in
Nepal when junior Nepali Dr. could not show
any courage to put question marks on their
senior's comments even on their field of competency.
He further pointed out that we nepali Dr.s
in Nepal fail to pose ourselves Professionally
and end finally with falana-dai and falana-ji.

I think, Ashu will not mind if I point out that
he himself being so aware and talent, still,
failed to continue his arguments when Mr. Kunga
(probably his school mate or at least know
each other since grade seven) interrupted through
the posting where he posed that both Ashu and
Sherpa are his good friends from long time back.
The readers who are watching this thread since
the very begining must have felt that
how exciting was the discussion
and excellent arguments were put by all the
parties including Mr. Sherpa. You can understand
their failure, when the issue diverted to
Carpet industry and Ashu put the Tenzing's
example in between his articles. Finally,
Kunga forced them to disconnect their keyboard
connection. Its really, an example, why we
Nepalis in Nepal fail to challenge our seniors
when it comes the challenge face to face.
Ashu, when we fail to face on this blind
(w.r.t. facial expression) cyber world, where
we have enough time to challenge on someone's
postings, how can I challenge my seniors
in nepal who are only half a dozen. Some are senior
alumni members, others my friends' dai, and
so on because nepal is so small that you
can make/find relation very fast. Its just
like, Sherpa and Ashu will turn good friend
via Kunga and both of you will loose your
arguing capability.

On the other hand, Mr. Rupesh and Mr. S.
have failed to continue their discussion,
and finally ended ...x-rated words.. (Hope you
read their final discussions). This clearly
hurts to those fresh SCN readers who wish to join
the discussions at the begining, but, when
they find the end like those two gentlemen,
s/he will have no courage to jump or express
any thoughts.

Such ends are not new to me, and we have seen
such ends in other news groups, too, e.g. soc.culture.
indian or some other professional newsgroups.

Looking at those results, what I would prefer
is just discuss or pour my mind's words through
falana ji, or falana bhai timile bhaneko yo kuroma
malai chitta bujhena, ma timisanga ekanta kura
garaulani hai. (Most probably Kunga had sent
some personal email letter or talked to both of you
before it ends with personal flames/blames.
Anyway, i congratulate Kunga for his job.)

Discussions with -ji, -dai would produce more healthier
and expected ends, and are I think successful in public
life (atleast in Nepal's Perspective).
Surely these are not challenging, and is
not suitable for talents of your ability.

Gyaneswor

ngawang sherpa

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Nov 14, 1997, 3:00:00 AM11/14/97

to

Dear Mr. Pokharel Jee,

You couldn't have been more right on the posting about how things are
going between me and Mr. Tiwari. At this point, it is obvious we are not
learning much from each other, the way we did at the beginning and the
middle of this discussion. In fact, I am tired of all this personal
slanderings. And I guess most of the SCN readers are fed up.

Rupesh Pradhan

unread,

Nov 14, 1997, 3:00:00 AM11/14/97

to

On Fri, 14 Nov 1997 pokh...@hotmail.com wrote:

> On the other hand, Mr. Rupesh and Mr. S.
> have failed to continue their discussion,
> and finally ended ...x-rated words.. (Hope you
> read their final discussions). This clearly
> hurts to those fresh SCN readers who wish to join
> the discussions at the begining, but, when
> they find the end like those two gentlemen,
> s/he will have no courage to jump or express
> any thoughts.

Pokharelji and others:

The only part of the discussion that I consciously took out of the
newsgroup was the part in which Sainju and I were throwing personal
attacks at eachother. My reason was simple: I did not want our personal
exhanges to push aside the main issue that was being debated (as to
whether Marwari entrepreneurial spirit should be feared or encouraged in
Nepal).

Regarding this marwari issue, there were some of us who believed that the
marwaris' economic contribution to Nepal has been immense, and there is
little or no evidence to suggest that we should fear the fact that they
have Indian ancestry. And there were others who believed that the Indian
ancestry of the marwaris was a threat enough to our "National Interests"
to outweigh their economic contributions. And still there were some others
who questioned the "cleanliness" and "fairnness" --and hence the
contribution-- of marwari economic activities.

There is no such thing as one being right and the others being wrong. It
all depends on the perspectives of the individuals. But at least we could
have a healthy debate on the issue guided by the merit of the arguments
and not mordancy of the words.

When I realized that the "healthiness" of the debate was being
overshadowed by the petty personal attacks, I offered Sainju to take the
personal part of the exchanges off the group, so that the core debate can
hopefully stay on track. And I still hope that there would be more
postings on this important issue.

And in fact, Sainju and I have been having "more gentlemanly"
correspondences in which we are trying to sort out his claim (made on SCN)
that I sent him a personal email with personal criticism --an accusation I
still deny. But that is between the two of us....It was only an attempt on
my part to keep out publicly irrelevant issues out of a public forum like
SCN.

Rupesh

smsainju

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Nov 14, 1997, 3:00:00 AM11/14/97

to

i never meant this discussion to be a personal warfare. rupesh and i
have already settled our problems. i don't think we exchanged some x
rated words. maybe r-rated.

the thing is this is my final semester here at Tech. I have been staying
quite busy in my projects. this is the only reason i have not continued
posting. i will definitely post some of my healthy arguments soon at my
leisure.

Like you said, we should respect each other. my point is clear. Posting
we post should bring some awareness not animocity but happening the
other way around. i think we all have some degree of lack of tolerence
or acceptance that we too can make mistakes and be apologitic.but rather
we choose to deny it. calling somebody a name has become a fashion (you
may recall.....). so where is the discussion going or taking you? what
was it how did it start? what was the concern? and lets try to find
where we are now.

gotta go, will write more later.

shambhu Man Sainju
New Mexico Institute of Technology.

> On the other hand, Mr. Rupesh and Mr. S.
> have failed to continue their discussion,
> and finally ended ...x-rated words.. (Hope you
> read their final discussions). This clearly
> hurts to those fresh SCN readers who wish to join
> the discussions at the begining, but, when
> they find the end like those two gentlemen,
> s/he will have no courage to jump or express
> any thoughts.
>

> Such ends are not new to me, and we have seen
> such ends in other news groups, too, e.g. soc.culture.
> indian or some other professional newsgroups.
>
> Looking at those results, what I would prefer
> is just discuss or pour my mind's words through
> falana ji, or falana bhai timile bhaneko yo kuroma
> malai chitta bujhena, ma timisanga ekanta kura
> garaulani hai. (Most probably Kunga had sent
> some personal email letter or talked to both of you
> before it ends with personal flames/blames.
> Anyway, i congratulate Kunga for his job.)
>
> Discussions with -ji, -dai would produce more healthier
> and expected ends, and are I think successful in public
> life (atleast in Nepal's Perspective).
> Surely these are not challenging, and is
> not suitable for talents of your ability.
>
> Gyaneswor
>
> -------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====-----------------------
> http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Post to Usenet

--

Ashutosh Tiwari

unread,

Nov 14, 1997, 3:00:00 AM11/14/97

to

Mr. Sherpa and Mr. Pokharel:

Not only has my counter-response to Mr. Sherpa gone unresponded, but now I
have to live with this sly, unwarranted hint that he and I might have been
engaged in some "personal slanderings". Wah! Wah!!

If publicly and confidently arguing against untenably and unthinkably bad
ideas with one sets of evidence and reasoning is tantamount to "personal
slanderings", so be it. I'll always assume that risk, even at the expense
of being a lonely voice on behalf of ideas that I see mangled and abused
by Nepalis who should know better.

The issue here, as in most cases, is NEVER so much as who's right or who's
wrong (that's really irrelevant), but WHETHER alternative, more logical,
more empiricial. more convincing evidence exists for the conclusions some
of us so easily, and so flippantly, try to reach in this great patriotic
RUSH to "put things in Nepal's context".

As one of Nepal's prominent Marxist writers, Govinda Dev Bhatta once
wrote (and I paraphrase here): Understanding Nepal is a difficult and
a complex process.

The least we can do is acknowledge that complexity, and start getting
exposed to some difficult ideas, ambiguous thoughts and complex reasoning
-- no matter where they come from.

ashu

Sandai

unread,

Nov 15, 1997, 3:00:00 AM11/15/97

to

It seems this discussion is concluded (??) with personal blames to
each other.Other similar thread was also ended same way.

Hope Mr. Sherpa and Mr. Tiwari were very close friends.