English as interlanguage
ru...@swpvia.uucp
pe...@snark.bellcore.com (Perry E. Metzger) writes:
> And yet, I can understand everything that you wrote. English, in
> general, is remarkably easy to learn. Compare it to, say, german,
> where the speaker must remember the sex of every noun they use, and
> the proper cases for all verbs, and remember what form of adress to
> use. It is fairly easy to get yourself understood even in broken
> english. It is very hard to get yourself understood in broken german.
> English is a bad choice for an interlanguage compared to, say,
> Esperanto, but it is here to stay, and it
I have a different opinion about Mi opinias alie pri tio. Mi pensas
this. I think it is difficult to ke estas malfacila lerni iu lingvo
learn any language correctly, but korrekte, sed facila lerni suficho
easy to learn enough to be por esti komprenado. Kio diras
understood. What German expresses germana lingvo uzante vortaliigadoj,
in word-changes, english does in the angla lingvo uzas la ????
order of words in a sentence. To ........
really master that is just as (sorry, haven't got my esperanto
difficult as remembering cases and dictionary at hand, don't manage
sex of words. BTW, you can get to translate this properly).
yourself understood in broken German
quite well too, we do it every day!
Ruud Harmsen
Jack Tuszynski
First of all, in response to | unue, en respondon al la
Mr. Perry's challenge over the | kontesto de sinjoro Perry sur
Esperanto network. Specifically... | la esperanta reto. precize pri...
>So, I pose the following challenge. Can anyone think of any way to
>spread the use of esperanto? To REALLY spread the use of the language?
>I would love to see myself proven wrong; esperanto is far superior to
>english or any other language for that matter for use as an
>interlanguage.
esperanta malgranda traduko: sinjoro Perry kontestas Ciuj por trovigi
metodo kiel esperanto povas esti pli populare kaj uzate ol anglan lingvon.
How about comp.lang.blind ? | eble gengo.blindoj retgrupo?
Blind people don't have access | blindaj homoj ne povas uzi komputilajn
to computer languages today. How is | lingvojn hodiaU. kiel blinda persono
a blind person going to program | povus skribi programo en co-an gengon?
in C language? A possible solution | eble kun parolantan komputilan lingvon?
would be to have a spoken computer | sed la problemo kun gengoj ke uzas
language. But, the problem is that | naturala lingvo estas ke Gin necesas
computer languages today depend on | klavaroj kaj komputilekranoj. mia
keyboard and video interfaces. | revua kontesto al sinjoro Perry estas
My return challenge to Mr. Perry is | demando al vin por montru kiel oni
to show me how one would practically | dirus la kvadratan formulon, aU aliaj
say the quadratic equation, or for | malsimplaj matematikaj funkcioj praktike
that matter any other complex math or| kun la anglan lingvon. malsupre estas
logical function using the English | komputilan funkcion skribita en mu-a
language. Below is a function in | modifeca esperanta baza gengo. la
an experimental Mu modified esperanto| funkcio komputas la kvadrata formulo.
based computer language. The |
function computes the quadratic |
equation |
|
x = -b+-sqrt((b**2)-4ac) | x = -b+-kvrad((b**2)-4ac)
-------------------- | ---------------------
2a | 2a
|
/* kvadrata formulo */
/* quadratic formula */
kvadratformulu enton kun enta ao kaj enta bo kaj enta co tiel
{
unue
se ao egalas zero tiam
eliru kun unu
due
se bo malpli ol zero tiam
eliru kun du
trie
kso egalas
|
divimu
/ \
aldofu aU minifu du multiplinu ao
/ \
malbo kvadrata radiko de
|
minuGu
/ \
bo eksponengu du multiplihu
/ \ \
kvar ao co
/* malbo aldofu aU minifu kvadrata radiko de bo eksponengu du minuGu
kvar multiplihu ao multiplihu co divimu du multiplinu ao */
kvare
revenu kso
}
Secondly, In response to another | due, en respondo al alia rimarko
remark that Mr. Perry made. | de sinjoro Perry
>Sed simile, But similarly,
>Esperantistoj tro ofte rifuzas Esperantist too often refuse to
>agnoski la pozicion de acknowledge English's position.
>anglezo.
What exactly is the position of | kia estas la pozicio de angla
English around the world that | lingvo ke vi deziras ke ni agnoskus?
we should acknowledge? What do | kio vi Satas? honestan konfeson de
you want, an honest admission of | venkon Cu vi Satas?
defeat?
Here it is... | tie ci estas...
English is the defacto
International Language
Good, now we got that issue out of | bone. nun ni ne fantazias nenio.
the way. We're not stupid. We can | ni ne estas stultante. ni povas
tell what is going on around us. | scii kio faras cirkaU ni. nun vi
You got what you wanted. | havas kio vi Satas.
Thirdly, to all of you who | trie, al Ciuj ke iros al la
are going to the SCI-FI convention | fantastika aliGilo en bostono,
in Boston and are familiar with | kaj ke leGas la usona populara
the V-series comic book. I | V-a komika gazeto. mi aldonas al
add to the above comment, that | supra mesaGo, ke sinjoro Perry
Mr. Perry would make a lousy | estus malbona kvina kolono
fifth columnist! |
note: a fifth columnist is an alien that works with the human resistance
against our supposed friends, the Visitors.
noto: kvina kolono estas korpforkapto ke laboras kun la homojn kontraU
niaj supozajn amikojn, la korpforkapta vizitanata mondo.
ne...@druhi.uucp
> And yet, I can understand everything that you wrote. English, in
> general, is remarkably easy to learn.
I disagree, and agree with Ruud! Mi malkonsentas, kaj konsentas kun Ruud!
People say that English is already Oni diras ke la Angla jam estas la
the "international language", but the "internacia lingvo", sed tiu koncepto
existing concept of "international de "internacia lingvo" estas ridinda
language" is a sorry thing indeed afero kompare kun la trajtoj de
next to what it could be with a eventuala vera internacia lingvo kiel
language like Esperanto. Esperanto.
(for lack of time, I'll put the rest just in Esperanto.)
Mi opinias ke la Angla certe estas almenaux tiom malfacila kiel la Germana.
Memoru ke en la angla, la skribsistemo estas eble pli malkohera ol tio de iu ajn
alia lingvo. Ni jam auxdis ke multaj listanoj povas legi kaj skribi
angle suficxe bone, sed ne povas facile paroli kaj auxskulti. En aliaj
lingvoj ne estas tiom malfacile lerni paroli kaj auxskulti kiam oni povas
rapide legi kaj skribi.
La angla havas multegajn vokalajn fonemojn kiuj estas malfacile distingi
por multaj homoj.
-Neal McBurnett, ne...@druhi.att.com or att!druhi!neal
I've attached a section from an outline I have for giving talks about
Esperanto. The section addresses some of the difficulties with English (much
as I love it!).
Difficulties with using English for an international language:
Politically unacceptable (even in Quebec!)
Declining in percentage of world speakers
We can buy internationally, but not sell (trade deficit)!
Gives native speakers unfair advantage
Non-native speakers must spend years learning
It would be better if they spent that time studying their specialty
Too hard: idioms, spelling,
readers vs listeners vs speakers vs writers: each task is
MUCH more difficult than the previous, especially in
English because of spelling irregularities. Only a
small percentage of those who learn English as a second
language can address an audience and answer questions,
and even fewer can write articles which are acceptable to
scientific journal editors.
Not phonetic: "one two three four five"
Emphasis: reject/reject/rejection, telegraph/telegraphic/telegraphy
Too many vowels:
bean, bin, Ben, ban, bun, barn, Bonn, born, burn, boon, banana
bead, bid, bed, bad, bud, bard, body, board, bird, good, mood
say, no, fly, how, fear, care, poor.
Vocabulary too large:
synonyms: quick, speedy, fast, swift, rapid, prompt,
brisk, sudden, hasty
Idioms:
"make up" = "pretend"
"keep on" = "continue"
"be off", "take off", "get at", "make out", "take in", "have on",
"be up to", "do for", "do up", etc.
Grammar:
728 separate irregular verb endings, by one count
Look at how many uses and meanings one of our more common endings has!
ing = adj phrase:
an activity, having no interconnection ...
ing = noun:
activity such as investigating the strength
ing = adj:
working laws of science
ing = verb suffix when used with by, of, with, from, in, etc:
begin by examining what ....
ing = subjunction + noun:
the scientist, in applying a particular concept...
ing = continuous (progressive) tense
he is traveling
ing after verbs like "avoid"
in order to avoid having ...
If we simplify it ("Basic English"), WE won't be able to speak it!
ru...@swpvia.uucp
Neal D Mc Burnett writes:
> Memoru ke en la angla, la skribsistemo estas eble pli malkohera ol tio
> de iu ajn alia lingvo. Ni jam auxdis ke multaj listanoj povas legi
> kaj skribi angle suficxe bone, sed ne povas facile paroli kaj
> auxskulti. En aliaj lingvoj ne estas tiom malfacile lerni paroli kaj
> auxskulti kiam oni povas rapide legi kaj skribi.
that directly relates to the spoken sounds, and indeed one can read it
aloud correctly from the written language. But now try to UNDERSTAND
a native Spanish speaker! That is much more difficult, even if you
know the language a bit.
It also seems, that languages that have fewer vowels (e.g. Spanish) are
spoken must faster than the ones with many vowels (e.g. English, German
Hungarian).
> La angla havas multegajn vokalajn fonemojn kiuj estas malfacile distingi
> por multaj homoj.
True. On the other hand, Esperanto has many consonants, and combinations
thereof, that are very difficult for many others. (Examples: The distinction
between s and z, s and ^s, combinations like sc, the h-sound, etc.).
But if you try to invent a language that would be easy to speak for
everyone, you end up with practically no phonenemes, and no combinations.
For almost anything, that seams easy, there is some language in the world,
that does not have it.
To mention just one perhaps surprising example, the Greeks can perfectly
well say both "d" and "t", but a "t" after an "n" (even in the preceding
word!) always becomes "d". As most of you know, the difference between
"d" and "t" is often used in Esperanto (or should I say Esperando?).
met vriendelijke groeten/mit freundlichen Gruessen/with kindest regards,
Ruud Harmsen, Nixdorf Computer, SWP-Vianen
Postbus 29, NL 4130 EA VIANEN, Nederland
Phone *31.3473.62365
E-mail: mail hp4nl!targon!swpvia!ruud
or: ..!targon!swpvia!ruud
Nerv: xmail harmsen.via
tim pennick
This article is in response to a message identified by the following two
lines, which was forwarded to me by a
colleague:
>From: cacs...@mx.csun.edu (Jack Tuszynski)
>Message-ID: <890814014...@mx.csun.edu>
As I am not an Esperantist, I am not qualified to answer the main point
raised by this article, however as a totally blind software engineer I
thought I ought to put the record straight on one or two points, in case
nobody else qualified to do so should happen to read this newsgroup.
>How about comp.lang.blind ? | eble gengo.blindoj retgrupo?
A very good idea, does it already exist or was this a suggestion.
>Blind people don't have access | blindaj homoj ne povas uzi komputilajn
>to computer languages today. How is | lingvojn hodiaU. kiel blinda persono
>a blind person going to program | povus skribi programo en co-an gengon?
>in C language? A possible solution | eble kun parolantan komputilan lingvon?
In response to the statement that blind people do not have access to
computing languages, I would like to comment that its a good thing nobody
has mentioned this to the more than 150 members of the British Computing
Association of the Blind, of which I am a member. The same goes for the
many other similar organisations throughout the world.
Blind people have in fact been able to use computers since the mid 60's at
first by means of converted lineprinters producing braille, and more
recently via "soft-copy" braille terminals which provide a small braille
window (usually 1 or 1/2 a line) on to the information normally displayed on
a VDU. Speech synthesisers are also used, being a cheaper option, and these
are found by many people to be quite satisfactory for programming -
especially in languages such as cobol where there is a large percentage of
character strings that can be spoken as words. Languages such as C are
slightly more difficult to handle using speech output, but by no means
impossible.
>would be to have a spoken computer | sed la problemo kun gengoj ke uzas
>language. But, the problem is that | naturala lingvo estas ke Gin necesas
>computer languages today depend on | klavaroj kaj komputilekranoj. mia
>keyboard and video interfaces.
My final point is not directly related to computer access to the blind but
havinb read the article I was puzzled by the implication evident in the
structured Esperanto example supplied, that there is an advantage in using
"modified Esperanto" over other forms of structured language. Granted that
the use of Esperanto as a language that is foreign to everybody has the
advantage that no one section of users has an unfair "head-start", but
surely it is unfair to compare the logicalness of "modified Esperanto" with
natural English. If you wish to say or write things like quadratic
equasions you would use "modified English.
Tim Pennick