the difference between Latvia and Lithuania
Tadas Blinda
one word spoken in Russian. (Swearing by Lithuanians doesn't
count! :-) I'm still waiting. But today in the pharmacy attached to
the supermarket, I heard the Lithuanian pharmacists explain ever so
politely and calmly to a Russian lady why she was not willing to serve
her in Russian. She said, gently, (did I stress the gently?) that the
reason is because Lithuania is not part of Russia and there is no more
USSR and she is no longer obliged to speak Russian to anyone.
Now a certain SCB-resident Balt may be inclined to scream
"Intolerance!" and to say that wouldn't happen in Latvia. No doubt it
wouldn't happen in Latvija (or Estija) but is the real reason that the
latter are "more tolerant" – or just more overwhelmed?
The certain SCB-resident Balt may get get a little glow (a bit like
peeing in your pants) from claiming that Letts are "more tolerant".
But what good is it doing the country? In my view, it is just
delaying the inevitability local language-learning that should be
happening among Baltic-resident Russians.
If there were any evidence that the Baltic-resident Russians were at
least just a little grateful for the "tolerance" extended toward them,
that might be an argument for continuing. But there is no such
evidence. Not a day goes by without some Baltic-resident Russian(s)
denouncing the Letts and Eestis in the local media and to Moskau,
claiming that they are "Nazi lovers" and committing outrageous abuses
against Baltic-resident Russians' "human rights". (Details of
outrageous abuse: suggesting to the Baltic-resident Russians ever so
politely that it might be in their own interest and it might improve
their own and their kids' lives to learn the national language of the
country where they live.)
Peteris Cedrins
Hmm. So who is this certain s.c.b. Balt? The question about the
linguistic environment, Gintai, is quite a complex one. I have an
awful lot to say about it, as I'm sure you know. What I have to say
about it is not especially popular among leftists and not especially
well-received by rightists either. Even the center doesn't seem to be
pleased as punch. I would love to take your thoughts apart, but I
doubt you're interested in that. But when you write about the
gratitude you expect for a tolerance you think is forced -- no, sorry,
I don't see that at all. And I hate to say it, but Nazi lovers are
Nazi lovers. I don't like them, no matter what masks they wear.
If you're really interested in what I think, here is the latest I've
written on the subject --
http://latviansonline.com/forum/viewthread/33738/P75/#43439
To the main question, though, re being tolerant or being overwhelmed?
In this I think you're really asking for it, sorry. Lithuania isn't
overwhelmed, and the main reason for that is horror. Vilnius is so
very "Lithuanian" because of genocide and ethnic cleansing, not
language policy.
Geriausio,
/P
Tadas Blinda
> awful lot to say about it, as I'm sure you know. What I have to say
> about it is not especially popular among leftists and not especially
> pleased as punch. [...]
> If you're really interested in what I think, here is the latest I've
> written on the subject --
>
> http://latviansonline.com/forum/viewthread/33738/P75/#43439
> To the main question, though, re being tolerant or being overwhelmed?
> In this I think you're really asking for it, sorry. Lithuania isn't
> overwhelmed, and the main reason for that is horror. Vilnius is so
> very "Lithuanian" because of genocide and ethnic cleansing, not
> language policy.
>
> Geriausio,
> /P
Sorry, no time for pilstymas iš tuščio į kiaurą. The main reason we
aren't overwhelmed with russkies is because our partizanai frightened
off carpetbagger settlers in the late 1940s and early 1950s. As for
your allegations of genocide and ethnic cleansing, speak to our
uninvited guests about that (Berlin and Moskau).
Dmitry
> denouncing the Letts
I've recently browsed through a couple of VS issues (Latvian tabloid
in Russian language), which is described by some as a most extreme
Russian language paper, but found nothing of the kind. Nobody
"denounces the Letts" on Russian language TV channel either. Some
individuals do have extreme views that they express in conversations,
but overall "denouncing the Letts" doesn't seem to be a trend.
lorad
Overwhelmed is the right word.
Lithuania was blessed with fewer monkeys on her back.
PS: How did you like the total demolition I layed on Holman (sci.lang)
Cool, huh? Mucho funny.
Hopefully that should disincline you from engaging in further
personality cult tendencies.
Peteris Cedrins
That depends upon your definition. Hating Latvians as such explicitly
is pretty rare -- but that's true for pretty much any such hatred,
isn't it? I mean, you can find not a few people and groups that
despise blacks, Russians, gays, Jews, or whatever, but most of those
into that sort of hatred will quite honestly tell you that they're not
russophobes, anti-Semites, racists, homophobes and so on. A few will
even be shocked by such an accusation. As to the trend -- well, as far
as I am concerned, denying the occupation is pretty fucking
lettophobic. The current Mayor of Riga refuses to acknowledge that
Latvia was occupied. The new Mayor of Daugavpils celebrates the
"liberation" of the city by the Red Army in 1944 with gusto. Is that
outright lettophobia? Perhaps not. It's enough to make it quite
obvious where their sympathies lie, however. To many Latvians, it is
unutterably unforgivable. I understand why, just as I strive to
understand where Ushakov and Eigim are coming from. Get over it? No.
They have to get over it, and they have to stop whitewashiing history.
This is their task, not mine. It is perhaps possible that some here
who don't know anything at all seek a middle ground in the middle of
nowhere. I shan't be one of them, because that supposed middle ground
is nothing but quicksand. Can't stand there. Lies are lies. Pretending
that something didn't happen you never get over it.
Vysu lobu,
/P
Eugene Holman
<bf1ffff3-a8d9-4e2b...@r2g2000yqm.googlegroups.com>, Tadas
Blinda <tadas....@lycos.es> wrote:
> At my local supermarket in Kaunas, I have been waiting to hear even
> one word spoken in Russian. (Swearing by Lithuanians doesn't
> count! :-) I'm still waiting. But today in the pharmacy attached to
> the supermarket, I heard the Lithuanian pharmacists explain ever so
> politely and calmly to a Russian lady why she was not willing to serve
> her in Russian. She said, gently, (did I stress the gently?) that the
> reason is because Lithuania is not part of Russia and there is no more
> USSR and she is no longer obliged to speak Russian to anyone.
That is hardly a good reason. Lithuania has a market economy, which means
that everything revlves around selling things for a profit. If the lady
had spoken English, she might well have been served, even though there are
far fewer English speakers than Russian speakers in lithuania, ion
addition to which Lithania would hardly have been "sold" to the Soviets at
Yalta without the complicity of the English-speaking UK and USA. It is
wrong to visit the sins of the late and unlamented USSR on a
Russian-speaking lady who needs her meds.
> Now a certain SCB-resident Balt may be inclined to scream
> "Intolerance!" and to say that wouldn't happen in Latvia. No doubt it
> wouldn't happen in Latvija (or Estija) but is the real reason that the
> latter are "more tolerant" =96 or just more overwhelmed?
Public facilities in Lithuania have no obligation to serve customers in
Russian, but with some ten percent of the population, many of thm elderly
people, having Russian as their preferred public language, using Russian,
if the staff knows it, it makes good business sense. In the final
analysis, it is a question of human beings, not empires, present or lost.
> The certain SCB-resident Balt may get get a little glow (a bit like
> peeing in your pants) from claiming that Letts are "more tolerant".
> But what good is it doing the country? In my view, it is just
> delaying the inevitability local language-learning that should be
> happening among Baltic-resident Russians.
The dynamic is there in all three countries. In Finland, where most
Swedish speakers have a perfect mastery of Finnish, healthcare centers,
pharmacies, and hospitals are the places where most prefer to use or even
insist upon using their native language, as is their legal right. I can't
say that I blame them.
> If there were any evidence that the Baltic-resident Russians were at
> least just a little grateful for the "tolerance" extended toward them,
> that might be an argument for continuing. But there is no such
> evidence. Not a day goes by without some Baltic-resident Russian(s)
> denouncing the Letts and Eestis in the local media and to Moskau,
> claiming that they are "Nazi lovers" and committing outrageous abuses
> against Baltic-resident Russians' "human rights". (Details of
> outrageous abuse: suggesting to the Baltic-resident Russians ever so
> politely that it might be in their own interest and it might improve
> their own and their kids' lives to learn the national language of the
> country where they live.)
Its not that simple. Most Estonia and Latvia-resident Russian speakers
below the age of 30 know the local language fluently. Any complaints that
they have are consequences of the fact that they constitute large
minorities and pay taxes like every one else, but are virtually invisible.
You have to work hard to see any overt symbol of a Russian presence in
Tallinn (approx. 40% Russian speakers) or Riga (approx. 65% Russian
speakers). The recent riot over the Bronze Soldier in Tallinn was not as
much about acknowledging a "famous" Soviet victory as it was about erasing
the one symbol of the Soviet/Russian past that the Russian-speaking
minority regarded as their own.
By the way, I am on record as being generally in agreement with the
decision of the Estonian government to remove the statue. I think,
however, that a crisis could have been avoided if they had waited a mere
two weeks, until after VE Day. There is no need to be nastily insensitive
if you don't have to be.
Regards,
Eugene Holman
Eugene Holman
<bf1ffff3-a8d9-4e2b...@r2g2000yqm.googlegroups.com>, Tadas
Blinda <tadas....@lycos.es> wrote:
> At my local supermarket in Kaunas, I have been waiting to hear even
> one word spoken in Russian. (Swearing by Lithuanians doesn't
> count! :-) I'm still waiting. But today in the pharmacy attached to
> the supermarket, I heard the Lithuanian pharmacists explain ever so
> politely and calmly to a Russian lady why she was not willing to serve
> her in Russian. She said, gently, (did I stress the gently?) that the
> reason is because Lithuania is not part of Russia and there is no more
> USSR and she is no longer obliged to speak Russian to anyone.
That is hardly a good reason. Lithuania has a market economy, which means
that everything revolves around selling for a profit. If the lady
had spoken English, she might well have been served, even though there are
far fewer English speakers than Russian speakers in lithuania, in
addition to which Lithania would hardly have been "sold" to the Soviets at
Yalta without the complicity of the English-speaking UK and USA. It is
simply wrong to visit the sins of the late and unlamented USSR on a
Russian-speaking lady who needs her meds.
> Now a certain SCB-resident Balt may be inclined to scream
> "Intolerance!" and to say that wouldn't happen in Latvia. No doubt it
> wouldn't happen in Latvija (or Estija) but is the real reason that the
> latter are "more tolerant" =96 or just more overwhelmed?
Public facilities in Lithuania have no obligation to serve customers in
Russian, but with some ten percent of the population, many of thm elderly
people, having Russian as their preferred public language, using Russian,
if the staff knows it, makes good business sense. In the final
analysis, it is a question of human beings, not of empires, present or
lost, or of linguistic retaliation.
> The certain SCB-resident Balt may get get a little glow (a bit like
> peeing in your pants) from claiming that Letts are "more tolerant".
> But what good is it doing the country? In my view, it is just
> delaying the inevitability local language-learning that should be
> happening among Baltic-resident Russians.
The dynamic is there in all three Baltic countries. In Finland, where most
Swedish speakers have a perfect mastery of Finnish, healthcare centers,
pharmacies, and hospitals are the places where most prefer to use or even
insist upon using their native language, as is their legal right. I can't
say that I blame them.
> If there were any evidence that the Baltic-resident Russians were at
> least just a little grateful for the "tolerance" extended toward them,
> that might be an argument for continuing. But there is no such
> evidence. Not a day goes by without some Baltic-resident Russian(s)
> denouncing the Letts and Eestis in the local media and to Moskau,
> claiming that they are "Nazi lovers" and committing outrageous abuses
> against Baltic-resident Russians' "human rights". (Details of
> outrageous abuse: suggesting to the Baltic-resident Russians ever so
> politely that it might be in their own interest and it might improve
> their own and their kids' lives to learn the national language of the
> country where they live.)
It is not that simple. Most Estonia and Latvia-resident Russian speakers
below the age of 30 know the local language fluently. Any complaints that
they have are consequences of the fact that they constitute large
minorities and pay taxes like every one else, but are audible and
virtually invisible. You have to work hard to see any overt symbol of a
Russian presence in Tallinn (approx. 40% Russian speakers) or Riga
(approx. 65% Russian
speakers). The recent riot over the Bronze Soldier in Tallinn was not as
much about acknowledging a "famous" Soviet victory as it was about erasing
the one symbol of the Soviet/Russian past that the Russian-speaking
minority regarded as their own.
By the way, I am on record as being generally in agreement with the
decision of the Estonian government to remove the statue to more
appropriate surroundings. I think, however, that a crisis could have been
avoided if they had waited a mere two weeks, until after VE Day. There is
no need to be nastily insensitive, call it peeing in the bear's cub's face
if you will, if you don't have to be.
Regards,
Eugene Holman
Dmitry
> is pretty rare -- but that's true for pretty much any such hatred,
> isn't it? I mean, you can find not a few people and groups that
> despise blacks, Russians, gays, Jews, or whatever, but most of those
> into that sort of hatred will quite honestly tell you that they're not
> russophobes, anti-Semites, racists, homophobes and so on. A few will
> even be shocked by such an accusation.
Probably. I wouldn't know, I tend not to engage in such
conversations. Last week, whilst in Melnsils, I took advantage of
satelite (I don't have one here) and "tuned" to Aljazeera. They
reported on Saudi government "healthchecking" pilgrims to Mecca...my
stepfather appeared sitting next to me immediately and started his own
"news channel". He doesn't know English, but he could see pictures of
crowds of Muslims. He started his politinformacija from "Islam is the
religion of ants" and then gone to "Israel"...via few more phobias he
landed on "Latvians" (meanwhile Aljazeera reported on Noth Korea,
Russia, Iraq etc.)...suddenly Peru appeared on the screen (he can read
Latin letters) and his politinformacija turned to China (who
apparently are going to go to war with Russia in the nearest future).
The reason is that Peruvians look similar to Chinese, so they are
direct descendents from Chinese, therefore they are all pro-
China.....Somewhere in between they showed Obama, which triggered
another piece "blacks have different hand movements from us whites".
It is very difficult to watch two news simultaniously, so I found the
pause and said that I've finished watching "English" news and he can
switch to his Russian channels, no probs. So, I do get this thing
first hand, but don't see much point to engage in conversations like
this. He is not computer literate, but if he was he would meke a good
team with tov.Andriushka.
> As to the trend -- well, as far
> as I am concerned, denying the occupation is pretty fucking
> lettophobic.
I don't think so. It is just insane. Those hard core would still
love Letts aproved by Kremlin. Lots of them think of R.Pauls as
"nashi" -))))) Denying the occupation is the product of Sovok.
> The current Mayor of Riga refuses to acknowledge that
> Latvia was occupied. The new Mayor of Daugavpils celebrates the
> "liberation" of the city by the Red Army in 1944 with gusto. Is that
> outright lettophobia? Perhaps not. It's enough to make it quite
> obvious where their sympathies lie, however. To many Latvians, it is
> unutterably unforgivable. I understand why, just as I strive to
> understand where Ushakov and Eigim are coming from. Get over it? No.
> They have to get over it, and they have to stop whitewashiing history.
> This is their task, not mine. It is perhaps possible that some here
> who don't know anything at all seek a middle ground in the middle of
> nowhere. I shan't be one of them, because that supposed middle ground
> is nothing but quicksand. Can't stand there. Lies are lies. Pretending
> that something didn't happen you never get over it.
When you moved to Latvia you probably didn't realise how Sovok it may
be for years to come. Saying that, I have lots of respect for your
move.
>
> Vysu lobu,
> /P
Visu labu.
Vladimir Makarenko
> At my local supermarket in Kaunas, I have been waiting to hear even
> one word spoken in Russian. (Swearing by Lithuanians doesn't
> count! :-) I'm still waiting. But today in the pharmacy attached to
> the supermarket, I heard the Lithuanian pharmacists explain ever so
> politely and calmly to a Russian lady why she was not willing to serve
> her in Russian. She said, gently, (did I stress the gently?) that the
> reason is because Lithuania is not part of Russia and there is no more
> USSR and she is no longer obliged to speak Russian to anyone.
Obviously the owner should fire this dumb employee for scaring off a
customer.
But I wonder how dumber you are not figuring out that the situation may
easily be inflated into lawsuit on the ground of ethnic discrimination.
Enough to film a single English speaking customer being served in
English to rip every last penny from the enterprise.
Hey, when Lithuania has such patriots like you why would it need any
enemeis?
VM.
>
> Now a certain SCB-resident Balt may be inclined to scream
> "Intolerance!" and to say that wouldn't happen in Latvia. No doubt it
> wouldn't happen in Latvija (or Estija) but is the real reason that the
> latter are "more tolerant" � or just more overwhelmed?
anita
> But I wonder how dumber you are not figuring out that the situation may
> easily be inflated into lawsuit on the ground of ethnic discrimination.
> Enough to film a single English speaking customer being served in
> English to rip every last penny from the enterprise.
You're thinking in American terms with respect to lawsuits, where a
lot of lawsuits are brought with no legal basis but in the hope that
they will be settled for nuisance value. That's not the case
elsewhere - the loser generally has to pay legal fees.
As to the Lithuanian pharmacy, OK, so they speak English to one
customer - that does not establish any sort of duty to speak Russian
to somebody else. Even in American I doubt there is any requirement
that a private establishment must speak in any given language to a
customer. Even English. Peteris can correct me if I'm wrong, but I
do think that establishments in Latvia that have public contact are
required to be able to communicate in Latvian.
Having said that, I'd think the store would want to accomodate
customers' language preferences whenever possible. Even if the
language preference is - gasp - Russian.
Peteris Cedrins
> In article
> <bf1ffff3-a8d9-4e2b-bfa6-ef7f99b37...@r2g2000yqm.googlegroups.com>, Tadas
>
> Blinda <tadas.bli...@lycos.es> wrote:
> > At my local supermarket in Kaunas, I have been waiting to hear even
> > one word spoken in Russian. (Swearing by Lithuanians doesn't
> > count! :-) I'm still waiting. But today in the pharmacy attached to
> > the supermarket, I heard the Lithuanian pharmacists explain ever so
> > politely and calmly to a Russian lady why she was not willing to serve
> > her in Russian. She said, gently, (did I stress the gently?) that the
> > reason is because Lithuania is not part of Russia and there is no more
> > USSR and she is no longer obliged to speak Russian to anyone.
>
> That is hardly a good reason. Lithuania has a market economy, which means
> that everything revolves around selling for a profit. If the lady
> had spoken English, she might well have been served, even though there are
> far fewer English speakers than Russian speakers in lithuania, in
> addition to which Lithania would hardly have been "sold" to the Soviets at
> Yalta without the complicity of the English-speaking UK and USA. It is
> simply wrong to visit the sins of the late and unlamented USSR on a
> Russian-speaking lady who needs her meds.
Here I agree with Holman.
> > Now a certain SCB-resident Balt may be inclined to scream
> > "Intolerance!" and to say that wouldn't happen in Latvia. No doubt it
> > wouldn't happen in Latvija (or Estija) but is the real reason that the
> > latter are "more tolerant" =96 or just more overwhelmed?
>
> Public facilities in Lithuania have no obligation to serve customers in
> Russian, but with some ten percent of the population, many of thm elderly
> people, having Russian as their preferred public language, using Russian,
> if the staff knows it, makes good business sense. In the final
> analysis, it is a question of human beings, not of empires, present or
> lost, or of linguistic retaliation.
Here I disagree. These are Holman's stock phrases -- "their preferred
public language," for instance. The preferred public language for most
Lithuanians, Latvians and Estonians is not Russian, and we live in the
same linguistic environment. If it's a question of human beings, any
Russian with a half a brain has figured out by now that using the
national language is what is polite. Common decency is kind of human,
is it not? I don't give a flying fuck if people preferring Russian use
Russian with Russians. That's beautiful. Go to it. If you live here,
however, why in the hell would you expect even the lowliest Latvian
clerk to serve you in Russian?
> > The certain SCB-resident Balt may get get a little glow (a bit like
> > peeing in your pants) from claiming that Letts are "more tolerant".
> > But what good is it doing the country? In my view, it is just
> > delaying the inevitability local language-learning that should be
> > happening among Baltic-resident Russians.
>
> The dynamic is there in all three Baltic countries. In Finland, where most
> Swedish speakers have a perfect mastery of Finnish, healthcare centers,
> pharmacies, and hospitals are the places where most prefer to use or even
> insist upon using their native language, as is their legal right. I can't
> say that I blame them.
And this dynamic is actually the very opposite of what you present.
The Lettophones are the ones who suffer, even now, in their own
country. Is that a problem? You'd better believe it -- yes, it is.
> > If there were any evidence that the Baltic-resident Russians were at
> > least just a little grateful for the "tolerance" extended toward them,
> > that might be an argument for continuing. But there is no such
> > evidence. Not a day goes by without some Baltic-resident Russian(s)
> > denouncing the Letts and Eestis in the local media and to Moskau,
> > claiming that they are "Nazi lovers" and committing outrageous abuses
> > against Baltic-resident Russians' "human rights". (Details of
> > outrageous abuse: suggesting to the Baltic-resident Russians ever so
> > politely that it might be in their own interest and it might improve
> > their own and their kids' lives to learn the national language of the
> > country where they live.)
>
> It is not that simple. Most Estonia and Latvia-resident Russian speakers
> below the age of 30 know the local language fluently.
In theory, perhaps. How many use it, though? And if you don't use it,
how fluent can it be?
Some of the people recently elected to municipal councils cannot speak
Latvian. They do not understand what is going on. These are not the
proverbial babushki suffering from nationalism whilst trying to get
their meds or anything like that -- these are prominent people elected
to govern.
And by the way -- even with those babushki, the situation is most
often the opposite. There are still people working in pharmacies who
cannot or do not wish to speak Latvian. I know this first hand, and I
have experienced this not rarely but often.
Any complaints that
> they have are consequences of the fact that they constitute large
> minorities and pay taxes like every one else, but are audible and
> virtually invisible. You have to work hard to see any overt symbol of a
> Russian presence in Tallinn (approx. 40% Russian speakers) or Riga
> (approx. 65% Russian
> speakers).
Huh? So their complaint is about visibility? This doesn't make any
sense at all, sorry. How often have you heard that? "I want to be
visible!"
The recent riot over the Bronze Soldier in Tallinn was not as
> much about acknowledging a "famous" Soviet victory as it was about erasing
> the one symbol of the Soviet/Russian past that the Russian-speaking
> minority regarded as their own.
You kind of destroy your own weak argument here, do you not? In Rīga,
the Victory Monument is gigantic, and nobody is planning to blow it up
except perhaps a couple of crackpots, the last ones having blown
themselves up instead. It's fucking huge, and "the Russians" -- i.e.,
those homines sovietici determined to be visible -- have a major
shindig there every year on 9 May. Most Latvians do not appreciate
this event, methinks.
> By the way, I am on record as being generally in agreement with the
> decision of the Estonian government to remove the statue to more
> appropriate surroundings. I think, however, that a crisis could have been
> avoided if they had waited a mere two weeks, until after VE Day. There is
> no need to be nastily insensitive, call it peeing in the bear's cub's face
> if you will, if you don't have to be.
There is no need to be nastily insensitive about anything, no. I know
very sensitive people who aren't nasty at all when they simply insist
upon Latvian. It's the opposite of nasty -- it is helpful. Some
russophones -- a minority within a minority -- don't like it, and
scream bloody murder even. There will be a certain tension here until
it is understood that those who live here are expected to speak
Latvian. Not just to be able to speak Latvian, but to speak Latvian.
Not too many people care about Russians speaking whatever amongst
themselves. But the sort of "bilingualism" in which Latvians are
expected to use Russian is going to have to go. This is mostly a
Latvian problem, actually, not just a Russian problem. The linguistic
environment has changed to the point where one can refuse to serve
local Russians in Russian, and it will be happening more and more.
People will start asking why one has such difficulty finding a job and
working without Russian, and I suspect that this may lead to serious
reform of the kind we have shied away from; language legislation
should intrude upon the private sphere, and workers should be able to
work in Latvian, as francophones can in Quebec.
The old baggage, like that of Gintas, will be dropped. The issues will
not be.
Regards,
/P
Vladimir Makarenko
> On Jul 28, 12:24 pm, Vladimir Makarenko <vmak...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> But I wonder how dumber you are not figuring out that the situation may
>> easily be inflated into lawsuit on the ground of ethnic discrimination.
>> Enough to film a single English speaking customer being served in
>> English to rip every last penny from the enterprise.
>
> You're thinking in American terms with respect to lawsuits, where a
> lot of lawsuits are brought with no legal basis but in the hope that
> they will be settled for nuisance value. That's not the case
> elsewhere - the loser generally has to pay legal fees.
Lawyer is supposed to pay, that's why s/he takes a hefty fee of 30-40%
of the reward.
It is true that EU countries is very backwater in comparison to the US
in the art of litigation, EU however moves up - it has a Strasbourg
court to stimulate evolution of their medieval system to civilized level.
>
> As to the Lithuanian pharmacy, OK, so they speak English to one
> customer - that does not establish any sort of duty to speak Russian
> to somebody else. Even in American I doubt there is any requirement
> that a private establishment must speak in any given language to a
> customer. Even English. Peteris can correct me if I'm wrong, but I
> do think that establishments in Latvia that have public contact are
> required to be able to communicate in Latvian.
Discrimination would require a) proof that other ethnicity was not
turned down, b) that the vendor could perfectly communicate in Russian.
Which is a piece of cake to prove for any lawyer even if it is not so.
As to language requirement - it cannot be true that such requirement is
in place for private businesses exchange with customers - what you are
going to do with tourism? I very much believe to the opposite - e.g.
pharmacy as health related outlet MUST provide service in multi
languages (btw - another good point for litigation - "my heart was
bleeding and I was refused a bondage!".
Even State structures I am sure have exceptions - for the medical,
legal, educational, social services branches.
Otherwise - you want a guy in a wheel chair roll into Strasbourg court
to tell the story how he was kicked out of hospital while with a heart
attack for not being capable to answer doctor's questions in an
"official" language?
VM.
Dmitry
> customer.
It becomes more complicated when it comes to places like pharmacy. I
thought that in medical profession (incl.retail) one has to put
language principles aside (even if you don't have a common language
you should try to help, "lectures" should be saved for outside work
time).
J. Anderson
"Peteris Cedrins" <ced...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:441a4939-d8b9-4ed3...@t13g2000yqt.googlegroups.com...
> There is no need to be nastily insensitive about anything, no. I know
> very sensitive people who aren't nasty at all when they simply insist
> upon Latvian. It's the opposite of nasty -- it is helpful.
I have a confession to make: I've spoken Russian in Estonia! A few weeks ago
on our way to Patarei Prison we had a snack at Hotel Sk�ne, a place that I
know to be entirely Russophone. My dish was really delicious, and when the
waitress cleared away the plate I spontaneously exclaimed "Ochen khorosh�!"
She answered "Spasibo", looking very pleased and surprised to hear a couple
of Russian words from Finnish visitors.
Am I a traitor now?
EZ
>
> Sorry, no time for pilstymas iš tuščio į kiaurą. The main reason we
Now that you have started it - no time?
> aren't overwhelmed with russkies is because our partizanai frightened
> off carpetbagger settlers in the late 1940s and early 1950s. As for
> your allegations of genocide and ethnic cleansing, speak to our
> uninvited guests about that (Berlin and Moskau).
There are historical differences between Latvia and Lithuania, but
there are a lot of similarities as well. I am choosing to look for
things that unite us, not pull us apart. IMHO Latvia is the closest
thing to a friend Lithuania has (in case you have not noticed,
Grybauskaites first visit was to Latvia and Sweden, I believe
V.Zatlers visited Lithuania also on one of the first visits) - and we
must value our friends.
Re. the language. There is a lot of Russian music in Lithuania - e.g.
in Palanga in summertime - no need to brag about a pharmacist in
Kaunas, which is a very Lithuanian city. And people like Burlega also
are there -self proclaimed "Sharikov" prototypes who know Russian very
well (he even has a Cyrillic keyboard installed on his computer!).
I would be more humble - but that's just me, Ginti.
EZ
vello
court can't help me in my hope to get service in Estonian there. Young
people don't know Russian any more - and in shops, there are lot of
young girls working. Knowing Russian is advantage in Tallinn if you
look for a salesman work (40% russian-speakers in city) but as shops
pay not too attractive salaries they take anyone who is ready to smile
for pennies from moring till night every day. If you want to buy
something more serious then beer and bread, say, car or appartment,
service in russian will be available for sure.
vello
For healthcare, it is essential to give help in patients own language
if only possible. for Baltics, maybe be special medical centres must
be created, at least in Estonia and Latvia with service in Russian
readily available. normally I think I'm fluent in Russian, but if to
think about diseases just pestis and sniffle are only ones I know how
to call them in Russian, so without service in Estonian I would be in
trouble (I got my russian in age anything tied to health was dad-mummy
things to me)
Peteris Cedrins
> "Peteris Cedrins" <cedr...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>
> news:441a4939-d8b9-4ed3...@t13g2000yqt.googlegroups.com...
>
> > There is no need to be nastily insensitive about anything, no. I know
> > very sensitive people who aren't nasty at all when they simply insist
> > upon Latvian. It's the opposite of nasty -- it is helpful.
>
> I have a confession to make: I've spoken Russian in Estonia! A few weeks ago
> know to be entirely Russophone. My dish was really delicious, and when the
> She answered "Spasibo", looking very pleased and surprised to hear a couple
> of Russian words from Finnish visitors.
>
> Am I a traitor now?
We can forgive you, Džon. We'll think about it, at least. You're not
the one who will shortly launch into a "Balts did the Balts" thing.
I could recount hundreds of situations that could illustrate my view.
I could pull some out that would feed the fires of all kinds of
nationalism, for sure. One thing I have noticed is that if I do insist
upon Latvian, others in line will do the same. Sometimes they will
even comment on how good it feels. You wouldn't know that there are so
many lettophones here until that happens; most are quite used to going
with the flow. The flow needs to be changed. This is where Gintas is
correct; why to pick the pharmacy example is beyond me. As to the law,
Russian is a foreign language. No pharmacist has to serve you in
Russian. Most will, and be thankful. Demand? No, sorry, because then
one would need to learn Russian to work in a pharmacy, and Russians
have no right to ask for that. Harsh? Not at all, and again -- in
reality, lettophones still have more problems than russophones.
Anita's sentence is essentially correct: "I do think that
establishments in Latvia that have public contact are required to be
able to communicate in Latvian," but this is mostly up to the
employer. It is now the employer who sets the categories and
qualifications, and the regulations -- how the law is actually applied
-- aren't as clear as they were. If they affect consumer rights,
health, security and so on, they are supposed to be able to speak
Latvian at a set level. Someone like a pharmacist is required to have
the highest level. In practice? Don't ask. But as to anybody needing
Russian -- officially, no. Again, Russian is a foreign language, and
though there are unwritten rules that require most everyone to know
it, you have no right to whine about the lack of it in terms of the
law. The policies we have are designed to make Latvian the lingua
franca, and we explicitly reject bilingualism. I heartily agree with
our policies. How they are implemented, what we need to do, how nice
everyone is to the babushka needing her meds and so on are complex
matters, but the status of Russian is not going to change. If
anything, it will encounter yet more pressure and be yet further
marginalized. The Latvianization has produced a backlash, but the
backlash will produce a backlash, and so on.
/P
Dmitry
> public language," for instance. The preferred public language for most
> Lithuanians, Latvians and Estonians is not Russian, and we live in the
> same linguistic environment.
Older generation (incl. our age-)) knows Russian. I imagine Vello
would have more success with his Russian than with English whilst in
Latvia.
> If it's a question of human beings, any
> Russian with a half a brain has figured out by now that using the
> national language is what is polite. Common decency is kind of human,
> is it not? I don't give a flying fuck if people preferring Russian use
> Russian with Russians. That's beautiful. Go to it. If you live here,
> however, why in the hell would you expect even the lowliest Latvian
> clerk to serve you in Russian?
GK didn't explain whether this lady didn't know any Lithuanian or
tried to make a "statement".
> Some of the people recently elected to municipal councils cannot speak
> Latvian. They do not understand what is going on.
Is it in Daugavpils?
> These are not the
> proverbial babushki suffering from nationalism whilst trying to get
> their meds or anything like that -- these are prominent people elected
> to govern.
>
> And by the way -- even with those babushki, the situation is most
> often the opposite. There are still people working in pharmacies who
> cannot or do not wish to speak Latvian. I know this first hand, and I
> have experienced this not rarely but often.
But you live in Dvinsk. You shouldn't have such problem if you were
in Ventspils, for example.
> There is no need to be nastily insensitive about anything, no. I know
> very sensitive people who aren't nasty at all when they simply insist
> upon Latvian. It's the opposite of nasty -- it is helpful. Some
> russophones -- a minority within a minority -- don't like it, and
> scream bloody murder even. There will be a certain tension here until
> it is understood that those who live here are expected to speak
> Latvian. Not just to be able to speak Latvian, but to speak Latvian.
> Not too many people care about Russians speaking whatever amongst
> themselves. But the sort of "bilingualism" in which Latvians are
> expected to use Russian is going to have to go. This is mostly a
> Latvian problem, actually, not just a Russian problem. The linguistic
> environment has changed to the point where one can refuse to serve
> local Russians in Russian, and it will be happening more and more.
Ptobably less and less as most of new Russian speaking generation
speaks Latvian (may be not in Daugavpils).
> People will start asking why one has such difficulty finding a job and
> working without Russian, and I suspect that this may lead to serious
> reform of the kind we have shied away from; language legislation
> should intrude upon the private sphere, and workers should be able to
> work in Latvian, as francophones can in Quebec.
>
> The old baggage, like that of Gintas, will be dropped. The issues will
> not be.
The issues of language are overshadowed by economy struggle. Some old
friend of mine said that her husband went to work to Russia, because
there was no other way to bring income to the family. In such cases
knowledge of Russian can be useful. Most, however, want to find a job
in Western Europe.
Peteris Cedrins
Evaldai, I completely agree. We are very different brothers who went
our separate ways long ago -- but we are brothers, and few nations
have such a brotherly relationship, the negatives possibly even
positive. "As brothers fight ye!"
/P
Vladimir Makarenko
NYU hospital will - just a block away on 34th street between 2nd and 3rd
there is some kind of Estonian diaspora social club. The question is
anybody knows how will be "H1N1" in Estonian?
VM.
Dmitry
Hui was right! You are a KGB russki agent trying to convert Baltics
back to russian state. Ostap was wrong -)))
> A few weeks ago
> on our way to Patarei Prison we had a snack at Hotel Skåne, a place that I
> know to be entirely Russophone. My dish was really delicious, and when the
> waitress cleared away the plate I spontaneously exclaimed "Ochen khoroshó!"
> She answered "Spasibo", looking very pleased and surprised to hear a couple
> of Russian words from Finnish visitors.
>
> Am I a traitor now?
Last week we've been to a restaurant somewhere south from Roja.
Friend of mine doesn't know any Russian or Latvian, but knew two words
in Russian, "spasibo" and "horosho". When we were served he said
"spasibo", the woman smiled in appreciation. G's gilfriend has learned
to use "paldies" in shops and "spasibo" in the house, she's been over
few times now....
Of course you are a traitor and should be held responsible for your
crimes. It's no good promoting russki speak in civilised countries.
Kremlin must have paid you lots of money for it.....
Peteris Cedrins
> > Here I disagree. These are Holman's stock phrases -- "their preferred
> > public language," for instance. The preferred public language for most
> > Lithuanians, Latvians and Estonians is not Russian, and we live in the
> > same linguistic environment.
>
> Older generation (incl. our age-)) knows Russian. I imagine Vello
> would have more success with his Russian than with English whilst in
> Latvia.
Sure, but that is changing, and very many young people do not know
Russian. It hasn't been reuired for about two decades. But my remark
here isn't about what other languages people know; it is about the
heart of the linguistic environment. Russian is increasingly limited
as a public language. One can happily speak Russian in many
circumstances, but one can no longer take it for granted that it'll be
understood. Its prestige has fallen. The prestige of Latvian hasn't
risen by leaps and bounds, but it will. Even now, it is shameful not
to speak Latvian. There will come a point where Russians won't speak
Russian on Latvian TV. At that point we can start having less
emotional discussions about multilingualism.
> > If it's a question of human beings, any
> > Russian with a half a brain has figured out by now that using the
> > national language is what is polite. Common decency is kind of human,
> > is it not? I don't give a flying fuck if people preferring Russian use
> > Russian with Russians. That's beautiful. Go to it. If you live here,
> > however, why in the hell would you expect even the lowliest Latvian
> > clerk to serve you in Russian?
>
> GK didn't explain whether this lady didn't know any Lithuanian or
> tried to make a "statement".
>
> > Some of the people recently elected to municipal councils cannot speak
> > Latvian. They do not understand what is going on.
>
> Is it in Daugavpils?
Of course, but also in Rīga. That's the capital. This is the second
largest city. That this is still possible is simply bizarre.
> > These are not the
> > proverbial babushki suffering from nationalism whilst trying to get
> > their meds or anything like that -- these are prominent people elected
> > to govern.
>
> > And by the way -- even with those babushki, the situation is most
> > often the opposite. There are still people working in pharmacies who
> > cannot or do not wish to speak Latvian. I know this first hand, and I
> > have experienced this not rarely but often.
>
> But you live in Dvinsk. You shouldn't have such problem if you were
> in Ventspils, for example.
But Dvinsk happens to be part of Latvia. I have no intention of ceding
it to Russians or the Russian language. Latvia is not a federation. It
has no autonomous regions. This city, though never very Latvian
linguistically, was never historically Russian either. This is not
Narva, and there are a lot of Latvians here.
> > There is no need to be nastily insensitive about anything, no. I know
> > very sensitive people who aren't nasty at all when they simply insist
> > upon Latvian. It's the opposite of nasty -- it is helpful. Some
> > russophones -- a minority within a minority -- don't like it, and
> > scream bloody murder even. There will be a certain tension here until
> > it is understood that those who live here are expected to speak
> > Latvian. Not just to be able to speak Latvian, but to speak Latvian.
> > Not too many people care about Russians speaking whatever amongst
> > themselves. But the sort of "bilingualism" in which Latvians are
> > expected to use Russian is going to have to go. This is mostly a
> > Latvian problem, actually, not just a Russian problem. The linguistic
> > environment has changed to the point where one can refuse to serve
> > local Russians in Russian, and it will be happening more and more.
>
> Ptobably less and less as most of new Russian speaking generation
> speaks Latvian (may be not in Daugavpils).
What will be happening more and more, as I said, is that Russians will
be refused service in Russian. I have seen it happen more and more, at
every level, whether at kiosks or by politicians.
> > People will start asking why one has such difficulty finding a job and
> > working without Russian, and I suspect that this may lead to serious
> > reform of the kind we have shied away from; language legislation
> > should intrude upon the private sphere, and workers should be able to
> > work in Latvian, as francophones can in Quebec.
>
> > The old baggage, like that of Gintas, will be dropped. The issues will
> > not be.
>
> The issues of language are overshadowed by economy struggle. Some old
> friend of mine said that her husband went to work to Russia, because
> there was no other way to bring income to the family. In such cases
> knowledge of Russian can be useful. Most, however, want to find a job
> in Western Europe.
The link I gave to Gintas explains why I think that is crap --
http://latviansonline.com/forum/viewthread/33738/P75/#43439
Language isn't overshadowed by anything. It is what one uses when one
isn't silent, unless making music. There will always be some people
who don't care about the issues or completely distort them, but there
is no reason at all to believe that the crisis will distract from
these issues. The crisis can actually accentuate the issues -- with
many out of work, people can begin to wonder why people who can't
speak Latvian still have jobs. I've already seen that happening, in
fact, and it means that Russians who can't hack Latvian lose their
jobs. It is not an either/or question, Dmitry; there are many Russians
and russified Latvians and Latvians who would love to "concentrate
upon the economy" at the expense of language and culture, but these
things cannot be separated and most people know that. Perhaps a fifth
of the people will turn to men like Šlesers, always ready to flush
Latvia down the toilet. Maybe even more will. Depends how good the ad
campaign is. But what that logic boils down to is "oh she is such a
good nurse, and they fire her because she can't speak Latvian?" The
reality is that one can't be a good nurse if one doesn't speak
Latvian. Those excuses are rancid by now. If you look at economic
studies, many bosses have said that they won't hire someone who
doesn't know Latvian not only because of the need for the skill but
because it says a lot about the character of that person. That
character is on its way out.
Vysu lobu,
/P
Vladimir Makarenko
Petya do not booby trap yourself with radicalism as "Russian is a
foreign language". It is not. It is lingering in legal twilight zone but
it is a language of the country de facto: isn't educational system is
partly (and officially) in Russian? Or try to interrogate anybody who
refuses to speak Latvian (mind you - even if s/he knows one).
It's only a matter of time when such a lawsuit will come slamming the
system. I am surprised it hasn't happened already or has it?
As to willingness to learn/speak Latvia - it's directly proportional to
poverty/education. What is left there to exercise one's Ego if one has
no money nor a hope for a well paid job? - "Kvasnoi patriotism" as it
called in Russia.
VM.
Peteris Cedrins
I am speaking in legal terms here; Russian is classified as a foreign
language, period. It has exactly the same status as Tagalog, Latin, or
Nuyorican. As to lawsuits, we're considerably more advanced in Europe
and are all subject to the same court in Strasbourg. Sue my arse off,
please. You would lose, and badly.
/P
Dmitry
> if only possible. for Baltics, maybe be special medical centres must
> be created, at least in Estonia and Latvia with service in Russian
> readily available. normally I think I'm fluent in Russian, but if to
> think about diseases just pestis and sniffle are only ones I know how
> to call them in Russian, so without service in Estonian I would be in
> trouble (I got my russian in age anything tied to health was dad-mummy
> things to me)
I'm sure you knowledge in Russian medical terminology is far better
than mine -)))
vello
X1H1?
vello
Don't know, you have Russian first name - no russian roots? But it is
true that language what is OK for "small talk" may appear useless if
you had to deal with some specific area not covered in usual beer
talks.
Vladimir Makarenko
Except you omitting that part of country educational system operates in
particular "foreign" language: by the state, on the state money, etc.
Which makes the boundary official/foreign legally blurred.
It has exactly the same status as Tagalog, Latin, or
> Nuyorican.
How many schools are run by Latvian state in these languages?
> As to lawsuits, we're considerably more advanced in Europe
Oh, sure. I just do not when the official EU's name change is scheduled
to happen? To EK - European Khalifat?
> and are all subject to the same court in Strasbourg.
Is it already Sharia or still runs on Roman system?
> Sue my arse off,
> please. You would lose, and badly.
Why would I sue you? - you are not filthy rich. But somebody will sue
Latvian state for sure.
If it didn't happened so far then only because you are underdeveloped to
reach a stage of "litigation society", however one day people learn
about American Dream: to sue somebody and retire with very healthy
checking account. Then the music come. Sooner than later.
VM.
>
> /P
Eugene Holman
<b225ea30-fa18-4ff1...@c29g2000yqd.googlegroups.com>,
Peteris Cedrins <ced...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 29 J=C5=ABl., 00:11, Vladimir Makarenko <vmak...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Peteris Cedrins wrote:
<deletions>
> I am speaking in legal terms here; Russian is classified as a foreign
> language, period.
Drinking alcoholic beverages was illegal in the United States between 1920
and 1933, but the law and the reality of thirst never converged. How can
the preferred public language of close to 40 per cent of the Latvian
population be realistically a foreign language?
> It has exactly the same status as Tagalog, Latin, or
> Nuyorican.
Except that hardly anyone in Latvia has one of those languages as their
preferred public language. A cold turkey switch from one public language
to another cannot be legislated in a democratic market economy, all the
more so if the language whose status and functionality are to be
downgraded is known by virtually the entire adult population and preferred
by approximately forty percent of the entire population. Although I also
favor Latvianization, I realize that it is going to be a matter of
generations, patience, and firmness tempered by good will on the part of
both linguistic communities. Making a sociolinguistic issue of the
language that a paying customer chooses � or has to � use when trying to
get her medication is not the way to go.
> As to lawsuits, we're considerably more advanced in Europe
> and are all subject to the same court in Strasbourg. Sue my arse off,
> please. You would lose, and badly.
Don't bet on it. Estonia and Latvia were able to convince European
lawmakers in the 1990s that Russian was not a proper minority language in
their countries, but rather the recent consequence of a long and illegal
occupation. Fine. Now almost a generation has passed. Some Russian
speakers have emigrated, some have become bilingual, some of gone native
and acquired a new linguistic identity for thmselves or at least for their
children, while some, mostly elderly, as far as I know, have done little
or nothing to accommodate themselves to the changed linguistic realities.
It is only a matter of time before someone brings up the issue of Russian
now being entitled to the same status and legal protection in Estonia and
Latvia that, say, Catalan, Basque, and Galego have in Spain. This does not
mean that Estonian and Latvian will eventually wind up marginalized like
Irish in Ireland. The hoped-for result would be a situation such as we
have in Finland, where the two speech communities know and respect each
other's languages and right to use them. A Belgian solution, where the two
speech communities coexist within their own spheres, interacting as little
as possible, is less desirable.
I claim this not as a proponent of Russian, but rather as proponent of
minority rights. Although we do not often like to think abut it, Estonia
and Latvia had Russian-speaking minorities long before the Soviet Union
ever existed, in addition to which there are tens of thousands of people
who self-identify as Latvians or Estonians but nevertheless were educated
in Russian, grew up in a household where at least one parent was a Russian
speaker, or otherwise prefer to speak Russian rather than the legally
official language if given the option. Estonian and Latvian are no longer
endangered languages, and the local forms of Russian spoken in the two
countries are not going away. It is only a matter of time before this
become a legal issue, nor can the position of the Human Rights Court in
Strasbourg be predicted.
Realistically,
Eugene Holman
Ostap S. B. M. Bender Jr.
> At my local supermarket in Kaunas, I have been waiting to hear even
> one word spoken in Russian. (Swearing by Lithuanians doesn't
> count! :-) I'm still waiting. But today in the pharmacy attached to
> the supermarket, I heard the Lithuanian pharmacists explain ever so
> politely and calmly to a Russian lady why she was not willing to serve
> her in Russian. She said, gently, (did I stress the gently?) that the
> reason is because Lithuania is not part of Russia and there is no more
> USSR and she is no longer obliged to speak Russian to anyone.
>
> "Intolerance!" and to say that wouldn't happen in Latvia. No doubt it
> wouldn't happen in Latvija (or Estija) but is the real reason that the
>
> The certain SCB-resident Balt may get get a little glow (a bit like
> peeing in your pants) from claiming that Letts are "more tolerant".
> But what good is it doing the country? In my view, it is just
> delaying the inevitability local language-learning that should be
> happening among Baltic-resident Russians.
>
> least just a little grateful for the "tolerance" extended toward them,
> that might be an argument for continuing. But there is no such
> evidence. Not a day goes by without some Baltic-resident Russian(s)
> denouncing the Letts and Eestis in the local media and to Moskau,
> claiming that they are "Nazi lovers" and committing outrageous abuses
> against Baltic-resident Russians' "human rights". (Details of
> outrageous abuse: suggesting to the Baltic-resident Russians ever so
> politely that it might be in their own interest and it might improve
> their own and their kids' lives to learn the national language of the
> country where they live.)
>
This is like an Indian or a Paki pharmacist refusing to speak English
to foreign customers because India “is no longer part of the British
Empire”. Remember that if, say, an elderly Ukrainian, Estonian,
Georgian, Armenian, Tadjik, Turkmen, Azeri, Bulgarian, etc. tourist
needed to communicate with local Lithuanians - Russian would be their
only choice.
At the best, this pharmacist's attitude is xenophobic and rude to
tourists. However, given that she is in the medical profession, this
borders on being criminal negligence. Imagine that **all* local
pharmacies and hospitals refused to speak Russian to tourists. This
means that many of these elderly and sickly Ukrainians, Bulgarians,
Georgians etc could die without urgent medical help. This attitude can
be summarised as: "Because you know Russian, I would rather see you
die than give you medicine". I wonder if the owners of the pharmacy
are aware of these actions of their irresponsible employee.
On a lighter note, a Russian journalist recalls the following telling
story: He and his friends went into a cafe in the Galician capital of
Lviv. When they gave their order to the waitress, she pretended that
she couldn't understand the Russian dialect. Even when they tried to
sprinkle all the Ukrainian words they knew, she refused to understand
them. So, they had to point to the menu items. After a very long
absence she came back and threw their food on their table. So, when
they were leaving, they left her no tip. And she ran after then
shouting in perfect Russian: "You forgot to leave me a tip!", but they
pretended that they couldn't understand her.
The problem here is that there are no tips or commissions at
pharmacies. Thus, young irresponsible store clerks have no incentive
to be polite and helpful to customers.
Anton
> On Jul 29, 12:18 am, Dmitry <dmitrijsfedot...@inbox.lv> wrote:
>>> For healthcare, it is essential to give help in patients own language
>>> if only possible. for Baltics, maybe be special medical centres must
>>> be created, at least in Estonia and Latvia with service in Russian
>>> readily available. normally I think I'm fluent in Russian, but if to
>>> think about diseases just pestis and sniffle are only ones I know how
>>> to call them in Russian, so without service in Estonian I would be in
>>> trouble (I got my russian in age anything tied to health was dad-mummy
>>> things to me)
>> I'm sure you knowledge in Russian medical terminology is far better
>> than mine -)))
> Don't know, you have Russian first name - no russian roots?
Medical terminology is universal, latin-derived. I also have trouble
understanding the medical words in my own mother tongue :)
> But it is
> true that language what is OK for "small talk" may appear useless if
> you had to deal with some specific area not covered in usual beer
> talks.
There was a big debate here about a Swedish speaking woman who had an
emergency and called 112 (it's 911 in Yankee-land). The woman addressed
the call center employee in Swedish, but the employee told her harshly
to speak in Finnish. (The call center is supposed to have Swedish
speaking staff, but it was not the Swedish speaker's shift that night or
something). The woman who normally spoke Finnish fluently had trouble to
express herself in Finnish in an emergency situation.
--
Anton
Anton
> Peteris Cedrins wrote:
>> As to lawsuits, we're considerably more advanced in Europe
> Oh, sure. I just do not when the official EU's name change is scheduled
> to happen? To EK - European Khalifat?
>> and are all subject to the same court in Strasbourg.
> Is it already Sharia or still runs on Roman system?
You are mocking European legal systems and actually think the American
is better? Or were you being sarcastic?
>> Sue my arse off,
>> please. You would lose, and badly.
> Why would I sue you? - you are not filthy rich.
Ok, you managed to put the finger of the rotten tissue of the US legal
system yourself - I don't know if it was your intention or not. The US
system is as much an instrument of legalized theft as much as it is an
institution to hand out justice to citizens who need it.
Also the harshness of the sentences in criminal justice are rather in
the club of the 3rd world, not the club of established 1st world
democracies. In some regards the system is even more cruel than Russia's
(the US still murders prisoners, while Russia does not).
> But somebody will sue
> Latvian state for sure.
> If it didn't happened so far then only because you are underdeveloped to
> reach a stage of "litigation society", however one day people learn
> about American Dream: to sue somebody and retire with very healthy
> checking account. Then the music come. Sooner than later.
I sure hope the "American Dream" of legalized theft does never arrive.
If it did then start-up companies would have to allocate resources to
their legal department rather than spend it on R&D, marketing and hiring
more competent people to take care of their core business. The US
justice system has a big "cancer tumor" to it almost as much as it is
contributing for the good of the society, it's people, companies and its
institutions.
--
Anton
vello
sure there must be an emergency service in maior minority languages.
big part of medicine terminology do base on greek-latin, but hardly
names of common diseases or words to describe how one feels about his
health.
vello
We don't know the full story - most probably girl in apotheka really
don't speak russian - and was a bit confused if customer thinks she
must to. Italy is top tourist place but they are universally unable to
speak anything except italian so I fixed in my memory basic words to
get my wine and pizza :-). Young people don't speak russian and there
is not too much russians in Lithuania so economically it hardly pays
back to look for service personal fluent in different languages -
those ones ask a bit higher salaries.
vello
Realistically? Hardly. Finland is incomparable case (it would be the
same with German language here if not ww2 - small nice minority group.
and de facto Finland is monolingual state where society runs in
finnish. Knowledge of pakkosvenska is something nice but hardly
universal, expecially amoung young people.
vello
<ostap_bender_1...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> This is like an Indian or a Paki pharmacist refusing to speak English
> to foreign customers because India “is no longer part of the British
> Empire”.
Well, no. English is special case. I'm not too sure young indonesians
are fluent in Dutch novadays. In Estonia, Russian as foreign language
is competing with Spanish and German about third language of choice
after English and French. But ordinary boys and girls not planning
international career are happy if they can speak at least one foreign
language - and it is for 99,9% english. No xenophobia (young people
don't know too much about soviet time), just matter of things.
Valtsu
to take care of, besides german and russian there would be the
"island-swedish", even finnish and yiddisch might be respected as
lingual minorities, but the total number of other-than-estonian native
speakers would be smaller than the russian speaking minority presently is.
Legal rights, as Eugene pointed out, are a different set of rules than
the mere existence of linguistic minorities, and that is something how
the developement of a society can be determined. Present day european
ideals demand the tolerance and rights of minorities - although it
proves to be diffucult in any European country due to immigration. For
example there are more native russian and somali speakers in Finland now
than native sami speakers, who have very far-reaching rights in the
north making sami an official language in the very northermost
municipalities.
Anton
> On Jul 29, 9:01 am, Anton <anton.use...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> There was a big debate here about a Swedish speaking woman who had an
>> emergency and called 112 (it's 911 in Yankee-land). The woman addressed
>> the call center employee in Swedish, but the employee told her harshly
>> to speak in Finnish. (The call center is supposed to have Swedish
>> speaking staff, but it was not the Swedish speaker's shift that night or
>> something). The woman who normally spoke Finnish fluently had trouble to
>> express herself in Finnish in an emergency situation.
> sure there must be an emergency service in maior minority languages.
Especially if the minority language legally happens to have the same
status as the majority language :)
Us Swedish speaking Finns enjoy a luxury few language minorities does
with our equal status, but this emergency service episode is yet another
example of the reality that in practice we are (and always will be) at a
disadvantage in everyday life.
> big part of medicine terminology do base on greek-latin, but hardly
> names of common diseases or words to describe how one feels about his
> health.
Well, there is some truth there. However many common diseases have
common names in most languages. "Tuberculosis" for instance is
practically the same in Finnish, Swedish, English, Estonian and so on.
--
Anton
Tadas Blinda
> > Sorry, no time for pilstymas iš tuščio į kiaurą. The main reason we
>
> Now that you have started it - no time?
Wrong. I didn't start any „pilstymas iš tuščio į kiaurą“, I was just
reporting facts. The „pilstymas iš tuščio į kiaurą“ started off after
that, and I stayed out of it.
> There are historical differences between Latvia and Lithuania, but
> there are a lot of similarities as well. I am choosing to look for
> things that unite us, not pull us apart. IMHO Latvia is the closest
> thing to a friend Lithuania has (in case you have not noticed,
> Grybauskaites first visit was to Latvia and Sweden, I believe
> V.Zatlers visited Lithuania also on one of the first visits) - and we
> must value our friends.
Nothing to do with what I was talking about.
> Re. the language. There is a lot of Russian music in Lithuania - e.g.
> in Palanga in summertime - no need to brag about a pharmacist in
> Kaunas, which is a very Lithuanian city.
Well you and some other self-hating Balts may not be proud of her, but
I am.
> I would be more humble - but that's just me
Humble people don't right to Usenet. And when a whole nation is too
humble, it disappears.
>
> http://tautietis.blogspot.com
Eugene Holman
<d6328ee7-664b-4bbc...@18g2000yqa.googlegroups.com>, vello
<vell...@hot.ee> wrote:
<deletions>
>
> Realistically? Hardly. Finland is incomparable case (it would be the
> same with German language here if not ww2 - small nice minority group.
> and de facto Finland is monolingual state where society runs in
> finnish. Knowledge of pakkosvenska is something nice but hardly
> universal, expecially amoung young people.
It depends upon where you are. Discounting Lapland, where Lappish has a
protected status in some areas, Finland divides up into four regions:
1. Swedish only: the �land Islands, which have a special atonomous status,
part of which includes Swedish being the sole official language.
2. Swedish majority, Finnish minority, places such as Kronoby/Kurrunupyy
in Ostrobothnia and Eken�s/Tammisaari in southern Finland, where both
lanages are used, but Swedish predominates.
3. Finnish majority, Swedish minority, places such as
Helsinki/Helsingfors, Vaasa/Vasa, Porvoo/Borg�, where Finnish
predominates, but serce is readily available in Swedish. In Vaasa/Vasa,
where the Swedish-speaking minority is a robust 30%,it is customary to
introduce service encounters in both languages: Hyv�� p�iv�� - God dag.
4. Finnish only places such as Kuopio and Joensuu, where Swedish is really
a foreign language, although limited service is available in Swedish,
since many adults have either an active command of it because they have
worked or lived in Sweden, or a passive command because they had to study
it in school.
Finnish society runs mostly in Finnish, which most Swedish speakers know
quite well - even on the �land Islands nowadays � legal documents,
interaction with state officials, and most srvices are available in
Swedish. Although my profession is teaching English, I teach translation
from Finnish and Swedish, had to officially demonstrate my ability to
speak and write Swedish as part of my job qualifications, and have to be
able to consult with students, give examination questions, and read their
answers in Swedish if requested to do so.
Regards,
Eugene Holman
Vladimir Makarenko
How in the world Finland got Russian immigration? Are all the people
amnistied illegals?
VM.
Vladimir Makarenko
> In article
> <d6328ee7-664b-4bbc...@18g2000yqa.googlegroups.com>, vello
> <vell...@hot.ee> wrote:
>
> <deletions>
>> Realistically? Hardly. Finland is incomparable case (it would be the
>> same with German language here if not ww2 - small nice minority group.
>> and de facto Finland is monolingual state where society runs in
>> finnish. Knowledge of pakkosvenska is something nice but hardly
>> universal, expecially amoung young people.
>
> It depends upon where you are. Discounting Lapland, where Lappish has a
> protected status in some areas, Finland divides up into four regions:
>
> part of which includes Swedish being the sole official language.
>
> 2. Swedish majority, Finnish minority, places such as Kronoby/Kurrunupyy
> lanages are used, but Swedish predominates.
>
> 3. Finnish majority, Swedish minority, places such as
> predominates, but serce is readily available in Swedish. In Vaasa/Vasa,
> where the Swedish-speaking minority is a robust 30%,it is customary to
>
> 4. Finnish only places such as Kuopio and Joensuu, where Swedish is really
> a foreign language, although limited service is available in Swedish,
> since many adults have either an active command of it because they have
> worked or lived in Sweden, or a passive command because they had to study
> it in school.
>
> Finnish society runs mostly in Finnish, which most Swedish speakers know
X Land Islands? Is where Swedish erotica started?
VM.
Tadas Blinda
> Making a sociolinguistic issue of the
> language that a paying customer chooses or has to use when trying to
> get her medication is not the way to go.
Oh yes it is! Read again what the pharmacist said. She said she is
not obliged to speak Russian because Lithuania is not part of Russia
and there is no more USSR. She is on very solid ground. Why should
she (we) cede an inch? What thanks would we get for that? And more
importantly – it would not benefit the national interest, only harm it.
Tadas Blinda
>
> > At my local supermarket in Kaunas, I have been waiting to hear even
> > one word spoken in Russian. (Swearing by Lithuanians doesn't
> > count! :-) I'm still waiting. But today in the pharmacy attached to
> > the supermarket, I heard the Lithuanian pharmacists explain ever so
> > politely and calmly to a Russian lady why she was not willing to serve
> > her in Russian. She said, gently, (did I stress the gently?) that the
> > reason is because Lithuania is not part of Russia and there is no more
> > USSR and she is no longer obliged to speak Russian to anyone.
> This is like an Indian or a Paki pharmacist refusing to speak English
> to foreign customers because India “is no longer part of the British
> Empire”.
Nonsense. Russian is not English. The Russian woman would have done
a lot better if she had tried English. That's life. Wheel of
fortune. English up, Russian down.
> Remember that if, say, an elderly Ukrainian, Estonian,
> Georgian, Armenian, Tadjik, Turkmen, Azeri, Bulgarian, etc. tourist
> needed to communicate with local Lithuanians - Russian would be their
> only choice.
Well, there is an English-speaking hospital in Vilnius. Maybe the
russkies should establish one too?
> At the best, this pharmacist's attitude is xenophobic and rude to
> tourists.
Crap. How many Yankee pharmacists can serve their customers in
another language?
Tadas Blinda
The Indonesian attitude to Dutch is a good comparison, Vello. Why
should the Baltic attitude to Russian be any different? (By the way,
when Indonesia became independent, 99% of the Dutch pissed off: about
half to Holland and half to Australia.)
Vladimir Makarenko
> Vladimir Makarenko kirjoitti:
>> Peteris Cedrins wrote:
>
>>> As to lawsuits, we're considerably more advanced in Europe
>
>> Oh, sure. I just do not when the official EU's name change is scheduled
>> to happen? To EK - European Khalifat?
>
>>> and are all subject to the same court in Strasbourg.
>
>> Is it already Sharia or still runs on Roman system?
>
> You are mocking European legal systems and actually think the American
> is better? Or were you being sarcastic?
I do think despite all the sarcasm and many many "but" and "however"
that American system is better, it has a nerve to enter legally
uncharted territories. Euros usually shy away.
Hilarious and very clever illustration - the "Boston Legal" show.
>
>>> Sue my arse off,
>>> please. You would lose, and badly.
>
>> Why would I sue you? - you are not filthy rich.
>
> Ok, you managed to put the finger of the rotten tissue of the US legal
> system yourself - I don't know if it was your intention or not. The US
> system is as much an instrument of legalized theft as much as it is an
> institution to hand out justice to citizens who need it.
It is not "theft" it's an extension of economic liberties into the
sphere of social relations. The US has no cap on how much money one can
make running even very unholy business, but to level the field there is
no cap how much one would pay if caught cheating or hurting.
An example in hand which says it all - tobacco companies - in Europe
they got away with a slap on the wrist, in the States they were
bulldozed with punishment payments of hundreds of billions.
>
> Also the harshness of the sentences in criminal justice are rather in
> the club of the 3rd world, not the club of established 1st world
> democracies. In some regards the system is even more cruel than Russia's
> (the US still murders prisoners, while Russia does not).
The US is much more multidimensional than EU, there are states which
exercise death penalty, there are also which don't.
You may find that Vermont prisons top the Euro hospitals, and some
places in Mississippi are worse than hell itself. Every community -
state lives up to its average "quality".
>
>> But somebody will sue
>> Latvian state for sure.
>> If it didn't happened so far then only because you are underdeveloped to
>> reach a stage of "litigation society", however one day people learn
>> about American Dream: to sue somebody and retire with very healthy
>> checking account. Then the music come. Sooner than later.
>
> I sure hope the "American Dream" of legalized theft does never arrive.
It does for few. As a matter of fact for A few. Bush tried very hard to
put a cap on punishment pay but Dems threaten to filibuster it into
eternity so the Holy Right of the poor to bankrupt the Rich is still
there. It is about Justice not theft. Local judges and juries are very
common sense folk.
> If it did then start-up companies would have to allocate resources to
> their legal department rather than spend it on R&D, marketing and hiring
> more competent people to take care of their core business. The US
> justice system has a big "cancer tumor" to it almost as much as it is
> contributing for the good of the society, it's people, companies and its
> institutions.
>
That misconception - about the "tumor".
As to start up companies - it's exaggeration - no start ups spent too
much on lawyers, they do not have any money anyway, why would anybody
sue them?
VM.
Anton
> Eugene Holman wrote:
>> Finnish society runs mostly in Finnish, which most Swedish speakers know
>> quite well - even on the Хland Islands
>
> X Land Islands? Is where Swedish erotica started?
>
> VM.
It was one of the scenes in the the Crimean War. A Russian should know
where it is :)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%85land_Islands
--
Anton
Vladimir Makarenko
> On Jul 29, 8:24 am, "Ostap S. B. M. Bender Jr."
> <ostap_bender_1...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> On Jul 28, 3:50 am, Tadas Blinda <tadas.bli...@lycos.es> wrote:
>>
>>> At my local supermarket in Kaunas, I have been waiting to hear even
>>> one word spoken in Russian. (Swearing by Lithuanians doesn't
>>> count! :-) I'm still waiting. But today in the pharmacy attached to
>>> the supermarket, I heard the Lithuanian pharmacists explain ever so
>>> politely and calmly to a Russian lady why she was not willing to serve
>>> her in Russian. She said, gently, (did I stress the gently?) that the
>>> reason is because Lithuania is not part of Russia and there is no more
>>> USSR and she is no longer obliged to speak Russian to anyone.
> [...]
>
>> This is like an Indian or a Paki pharmacist refusing to speak English
>> Empire�.
>
> Nonsense. Russian is not English. The Russian woman would have done
> a lot better if she had tried English. That's life. Wheel of
> fortune. English up, Russian down.
>
>> Remember that if, say, an elderly Ukrainian, Estonian,
>> Georgian, Armenian, Tadjik, Turkmen, Azeri, Bulgarian, etc. tourist
>> needed to communicate with local Lithuanians - Russian would be their
>> only choice.
>
> Well, there is an English-speaking hospital in Vilnius. Maybe the
> russkies should establish one too?
>
>> At the best, this pharmacist's attitude is xenophobic and rude to
>> tourists.
>
> Crap. How many Yankee pharmacists can serve their customers in
> another language?
>
You shall update your provincial mothballed ideas of the US. Any US
pharmacy will serve you at least in two languages, and in many case more
than that as it is hard to find a pharmacy which doesn't have a staff
member who is not from China or India regions.
VM.
Valtsu
>
> How in the world Finland got Russian immigration? Are all the people
> amnistied illegals?
>
> VM.
Hardly ;-)
There have been several waves of Russian immigration.
Actually quite few came during the century of Velikoe Knyazhestvo
Finlyandskoye because of the border that existed all the time. Some
businessmen did come, for example Gospodin Sinebrychoff more than 150
years ago, who created the Koff beer, still one of the biggest brands
here. I guess more Finns moved to Russia than vv. St Petersburg was a
lucrative destination for skilled labour and merchants.
After the revolution there was a big wave of emigrees from Russia, but
Finland was mainly a transit country. A few thousand stayed. Many
changed their names to be more finnic, and the in general the Russians
kept low profile, but were active in their own clubs and other
organisations.
After ww2 Russians, who had lived for centuries in the Karelian areas
ceded to the USSR (monks in Valaam and Konevits monasteries, the
residents of Kyyr�l� village on the Karelian Isthmus, Russian residents
of Vyborg and Terijoki (present day Zelenogorsk) totalling a few
thousand relocated with the Finnish population to other Finnish areas.
In the 1980-s during the times of president Koivisto started the
"returnado" traffic, Ingrian Finns returning to Finland. These were
mainly people, whose ancestors had emigrated to Ingria (areas around St
Petersburg) when our sovereign the king of Sweden wanted to increase his
presence eastwards starting from the 17th century. During ww2 the
Germans relocated these people to Finland from the areas they occupied
and according to the Paris Peace Protocol after ww2 (most) of them were
forced to return to the USSR. These people could immigrate to Finland if
they could prove that their name or at least the name of one grandparent
could be found in the Lutheran church records kept untill Stalin came to
power. This meant that most of the return�s spuses and offspring
included could not speak a word of Finnish.
After the downfall of USSR there are also other sorts of immigrants. My
neighbour is specialist from Novosibirsk working for Nokia, and he is
not the only one of his kind.
In all there are some 50-75 thousand Russians, who speak Russian as
their mother tongue in a country of 5 million. A small number after all.
valtsu
vello
> Tadas Blinda wrote:
> > On Jul 29, 8:24 am, "Ostap S. B. M. Bender Jr."
> > <ostap_bender_1...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >> On Jul 28, 3:50 am, Tadas Blinda <tadas.bli...@lycos.es> wrote:
>
> >>> At my local supermarket in Kaunas, I have been waiting to hear even
> >>> one word spoken in Russian. (Swearing by Lithuanians doesn't
> >>> count! :-) I'm still waiting. But today in the pharmacy attached to
> >>> the supermarket, I heard the Lithuanian pharmacists explain ever so
> >>> politely and calmly to a Russian lady why she was not willing to serve
> >>> her in Russian. She said, gently, (did I stress the gently?) that the
> >>> reason is because Lithuania is not part of Russia and there is no more
> >>> USSR and she is no longer obliged to speak Russian to anyone.
> > [...]
>
> >> This is like an Indian or a Paki pharmacist refusing to speak English
> >> Empire”.
>
> > Nonsense. Russian is not English. The Russian woman would have done
> > a lot better if she had tried English. That's life. Wheel of
> > fortune. English up, Russian down.
>
> >> Remember that if, say, an elderly Ukrainian, Estonian,
> >> Georgian, Armenian, Tadjik, Turkmen, Azeri, Bulgarian, etc. tourist
> >> needed to communicate with local Lithuanians - Russian would be their
> >> only choice.
>
> > Well, there is an English-speaking hospital in Vilnius. Maybe the
> > russkies should establish one too?
>
> >> At the best, this pharmacist's attitude is xenophobic and rude to
> >> tourists.
>
> > Crap. How many Yankee pharmacists can serve their customers in
> > another language?
>
> You shall update your provincial mothballed ideas of the US. Any US
> pharmacy will serve you at least in two languages, and in many case more
> than that as it is hard to find a pharmacy which doesn't have a staff
> member who is not from China or India regions.
>
vello
How it is possible? By me there is just two options: a) tobacco
business is banned, jail for anyone truing to sell tobacco. And b)
that business is allowed and no one can make dirty money on tobacco
companies. If they fulfill state regulations, how one can go to court
against them?
>
>
>
> > Also the harshness of the sentences in criminal justice are rather in
> > the club of the 3rd world, not the club of established 1st world
> > democracies. In some regards the system is even more cruel than Russia's
> > (the US still murders prisoners, while Russia does not).
>
> The US is much more multidimensional than EU, there are states which
> exercise death penalty, there are also which don't.
> You may find that Vermont prisons top the Euro hospitals, and some
> places in Mississippi are worse than hell itself. Every community -
> state lives up to its average "quality".
Same for Europe, I think. Hardly laws and state regulations in, say,
Portugal and Estonia are closer then those of Vermont and Missisipi.
You drive all on the same side of the road and have universal for all
US electricity standards and sockets-jacks. In Europe you had to carry
adapters from country to country.
Vladimir Makarenko
Wow, quite a story/history.
As to the Ingrians return - I will never forget an early 90-ties scene
in Sheremetievo airport when I run into a company of what looked like a
group of peasants in theatrically "peasantish" dresses. They spoke
Russian which was difficult to understand. Then one of them flashed
Lufthansa tickets and by that and that one of old woman was addressed
"Louise" I figured out that these are "Volga" Germans from Kazakhstan
"repatriating" to Germany. They also had a live goose in a basket. I do
not BS you. In 90-ties one can see many unbelievable scenes.
VM.
Vladimir Makarenko
> On Jul 29, 8:00 pm, Vladimir Makarenko <vmak...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Tadas Blinda wrote:
>>> On Jul 29, 8:24 am, "Ostap S. B. M. Bender Jr."
>>> <ostap_bender_1...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>> On Jul 28, 3:50 am, Tadas Blinda <tadas.bli...@lycos.es> wrote:
>>>>> At my local supermarket in Kaunas, I have been waiting to hear even
>>>>> one word spoken in Russian. (Swearing by Lithuanians doesn't
>>>>> count! :-) I'm still waiting. But today in the pharmacy attached to
>>>>> the supermarket, I heard the Lithuanian pharmacists explain ever so
>>>>> politely and calmly to a Russian lady why she was not willing to serve
>>>>> her in Russian. She said, gently, (did I stress the gently?) that the
>>>>> reason is because Lithuania is not part of Russia and there is no more
>>>>> USSR and she is no longer obliged to speak Russian to anyone.
>>> [...]
>>>> This is like an Indian or a Paki pharmacist refusing to speak English
>>>> Empire�.
>>> Nonsense. Russian is not English. The Russian woman would have done
>>> a lot better if she had tried English. That's life. Wheel of
>>> fortune. English up, Russian down.
>>>> Remember that if, say, an elderly Ukrainian, Estonian,
>>>> Georgian, Armenian, Tadjik, Turkmen, Azeri, Bulgarian, etc. tourist
>>>> needed to communicate with local Lithuanians - Russian would be their
>>>> only choice.
>>> Well, there is an English-speaking hospital in Vilnius. Maybe the
>>> russkies should establish one too?
>>>> At the best, this pharmacist's attitude is xenophobic and rude to
>>>> tourists.
>>> Crap. How many Yankee pharmacists can serve their customers in
>>> another language?
>> You shall update your provincial mothballed ideas of the US. Any US
>> pharmacy will serve you at least in two languages, and in many case more
>> than that as it is hard to find a pharmacy which doesn't have a staff
>> member who is not from China or India regions.
>>
> Is spanish service granted in most places?
>
Yes. In the continental US for sure. Maybe not in Alaska or Hawaii -
because there are no such customers there.
VM.
Vladimir Makarenko
They made research yet in sixties - "classified" and they found out that
it is addictive and cancer causing and - and hid the information from
customers.
Guilty as charged.
>>
>>
>>> Also the harshness of the sentences in criminal justice are rather in
>>> the club of the 3rd world, not the club of established 1st world
>>> democracies. In some regards the system is even more cruel than Russia's
>>> (the US still murders prisoners, while Russia does not).
>> The US is much more multidimensional than EU, there are states which
>> exercise death penalty, there are also which don't.
>> You may find that Vermont prisons top the Euro hospitals, and some
>> places in Mississippi are worse than hell itself. Every community -
>> state lives up to its average "quality".
>
> Same for Europe, I think. Hardly laws and state regulations in, say,
> Portugal and Estonia are closer then those of Vermont and Missisipi.
> You drive all on the same side of the road and have universal for all
> US electricity standards and sockets-jacks. In Europe you had to carry
> adapters from country to country.
No Vello it is very, critically different - in the States the "spine" of
the legal system is Constitution, in Europe it is the local culture. In
the States the laws wrapped up Constitution, in Europe the local culture.
The Constitution is a set of principles how the system work, any local
culture is a Talmud how every single move is to be regulated. How to
unzip your fly.
Hence the generation difference between the US and Euro legal systems.
One day we will sue you. Are you ready? I can recommend a couple of
local legal firms to represent you. Your lawyers are not really good
according to "Fish called Wanda".
VM.
Ostap S. B. M. Bender Jr.
So, you are comparing Lithuania/Latvia's treatment of foreign
ethnicities to that of Indonesia?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Indonesia
Indonesian National Revolution
3 500 Europeans were killed and 20 000 were missing, meaning more
European deaths in Indonesia after the war than during the war... Many
more Japanese died; in Bandung alone, 1,057 died, only half of whom
died in actual combat, the rest killed in rampages by Indonesians.
Tens of thousands of Chinese and Eurasians were killed or left
homeless, despite the fact that many Chinese supported the Revolution.
7 million people were displaced on Java and Sumatra.
http://www.zum.de/whkmla/region/seasia/indonesia19491965.html
In 1959, ethnic Chinese residents of countryside Indonesia were forced
to move into the cities; over 100,000 emigrated... the expulsion of
the 46,000 Dutch residents of Indonesia (1957) caused a lack of
technical experts.
On the other hand let's compare the force that Holland and UK used to
prevent Indonesian independence vs. the force that Gorbachev and
Yeltsin used to prevent Indonesian independence :
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indonesian_National_Revolution
Estimates of Indonesian deaths in fighting range from 45,000 to
100,000 and civilian casualties exceeded 25,000 and may have been as
high as 100,000.[50] A total of 1,200 British soldiers were killed or
went missing in Java and Sumatra in 1945 and 1946, most of them Indian
soldiers.[51] More than 5000 Dutch soldiers lost their lives in
Indonesia between 1945 and 1949..
Would you Balts have liked **this** amount of mayhem during your
getting your independece? Aren't you Balts glad that Russia is
infinitely more civilised than UK, Holland and other EU countries?
Ostap S. B. M. Bender Jr.
Good question. Maybe because they don't want to be mass murderers?
Ostap S. B. M. Bender Jr.
> On Jul 29, 8:24 am, "Ostap S. B. M. Bender Jr."<ostap_bender_1...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > On Jul 28, 3:50 am, Tadas Blinda <tadas.bli...@lycos.es> wrote:
>
> > > At my local supermarket in Kaunas, I have been waiting to hear even
> > > one word spoken in Russian. (Swearing by Lithuanians doesn't
> > > count! :-) I'm still waiting. But today in the pharmacy attached to
> > > the supermarket, I heard the Lithuanian pharmacists explain ever so
> > > politely and calmly to a Russian lady why she was not willing to serve
> > > her in Russian. She said, gently, (did I stress the gently?) that the
> > > reason is because Lithuania is not part of Russia and there is no more
> > > USSR and she is no longer obliged to speak Russian to anyone.
>
> [...]
>
> > This is like an Indian or a Paki pharmacist refusing to speak English
> > to foreign customers because India “is no longer part of the British
> > Empire”.
>
> Nonsense. Russian is not English. The Russian woman would have done
> a lot better if she had tried English.
>
How do you know that she was Russian and not Ukrainian of Georgian?
Did she show you her passport?
And you know very well that very few older people in Georgia, Ukraine
and Russia speak English. Maybe the woman should have tried speaking
Georgian to the pharmacist, but the latter doesn't know Georgian, does
she.
>
> That's life. Wheel of fortune. English up, Russian down.
>
French down too. I wonder when ther last french-speaker will die in
Montreal....
>
> > Remember that if, say, an elderly Ukrainian, Estonian,
> > Georgian, Armenian, Tadjik, Turkmen, Azeri, Bulgarian, etc. tourist
> > needed to communicate with local Lithuanians - Russian would be their
> > only choice.
>
> Well, there is an English-speaking hospital in Vilnius. Maybe the
> russkies should establish one too?
>
> > At the best, this pharmacist's attitude is xenophobic and rude to
> > tourists.
>
> Crap. How many Yankee pharmacists can serve their customers in
> another language?
>
If an American doctor, who knows language X, refuses to speak language
X to a tourist from country X and thus refuses to give medical help to
him/her - this is a felony.
Ostap S. B. M. Bender Jr.
Here in California - yes. I have yet to see a pharmacy without Spanish-
speakers.
Eugene Holman
<315fc7bb-b6a6-4fc4...@i6g2000yqj.googlegroups.com>, Tadas
Blinda <tadas....@lycos.es> wrote:
> On Jul 29, 7:47=A0am, hol...@mappi.helsinki.fi (Eugene Holman) wrote:
>
> > Making a sociolinguistic issue of the
> > language that a paying customer chooses =AD or has to =AD use when trying=
> to
> > get her medication is not the way to go.
>
> Oh yes it is! Read again what the pharmacist said. She said she is
> not obliged to speak Russian because Lithuania is not part of Russia
> and there is no more USSR.
If she said that in Russian, but refused to give service in Russian to a
speaker of that language, then she was acting chauvinistically and
discriminatorily to the point of irresponsibility. If she is working in a
city and country that still has a sizable Russian-speaking population and
tourist flow, but does not know enough Russian, even pidgin Russian, to
be able to sell medication to a Russian-speaking customer, one wonders
whether being in a position where she is supposed to interact with and
serve the public is an approrpiate job for her.
> She is on very solid ground.
If she knew Russian, but used it to give a mini-lecture rather serve an
ailing and paying customer, she was acting irresponisbly, immorally, and
in a non-bunsinesslike manner.
> Why should
> she (we) cede an inch?
To help somebody in need, to facilitate doing what she is paid her salary
to so, to generate income and profit for her employer.
> What thanks would we get for that? And more
> importantly =96 it would not benefit the national interest, only harm it.
You provided no evidence that the woman knew any other language than
Russian, nor are the grammatical intircacies of Lithuanian the first thing
on the mind of a person speaking it as a foreign language, if at all, in
need of medication. She could have been a tourist from Russia or some
other country, she could have been a person whose preferred public
language is Russian, but actually speaks Ukrainian, Georgian, or (gasp!)
even Estonian or Latvian at home. She could have been an employee or
dependent of the Russian staff operating the atomic power plant at
Ignalina, a Russian-speaking environment.
Physicians, pharmacists, police, firefighters and other care givers have
professional obligations more important than scoring points for the
national language when on duty. Furthermore, it is incidents like this
that will eventually result in the Russian-speaking minorities in the
Baltic countries initiating legislation locally, and if unsuccessful, at
Strasbourg, to be accorded all the linguistic and civil rights that
linguistic minorities are accorded elsewhere in Europe.
Regards,
ugene Holman
Eugene Holman
<val...@stadissa.fi> wrote:
> Vladimir Makarenko wrote:
> >
> > How in the world Finland got Russian immigration? Are all the people
> > amnistied illegals?
> >
> > VM.
>
> Hardly ;-)
>
> There have been several waves of Russian immigration.
>
> Actually quite few came during the century of Velikoe Knyazhestvo
> Finlyandskoye because of the border that existed all the time. Some
> businessmen did come, for example Gospodin Sinebrychoff more than 150
> years ago, who created the Koff beer, still one of the biggest brands
> here. I guess more Finns moved to Russia than vv. St Petersburg was a
> lucrative destination for skilled labour and merchants.
This first wave included the nucleus of today's Jewish population. Staring
in the 1878s Russian Jews who had served in Finland in the Czar's army
were allowed to settle here after being released from service.
<deletions>
>
> After the downfall of USSR there are also other sorts of immigrants. My
> neighbour is specialist from Novosibirsk working for Nokia, and he is
> not the only one of his kind.
>
> In all there are some 50-75 thousand Russians, who speak Russian as
> their mother tongue in a country of 5 million. A small number after all.
Finland has a substantial immigrant population from the Baltic countries,
particularly Estonia. Some of these are members of their local
Russian-speaking communities. nce again, it should be emphasized that
there is a difference between Russian and Russian speakers. One immigrant
from Estonia that I have talked to is actually an Ingrian Finn. They make
up about one per cent of the Estonian population and, as a rule, those of
his generation received their education in Russian, not Estonian or
Finnish, and thus have Russian as their preferred public language.
Regards,
Eugene Holman
vello
>
About what you are talking? I just say that hardly indonesians are too
fluent in duch.
Valtsu
I guess the exodus from Russia according to ethnicity started with
Israel "recalling" its "citizens" back to Israel. At SVO airport in the
1970-s where I was working there the customs gave a really hard time to
these people. They had to bring their things for inspection already on
the previous day. Jewelry etc was usually confiscated as the passengers
could not produce valid export licenses, pictures were torn off family
albums to see that nothing was hidden under the photos and so on. The
humiliation was total.
The second biggest group was the Germans as you described. When I was
working in Germany in the 1980-s I visited a so called receiving center
for returning Germans. It was crowded, but otherwise adaquate. Not a
word of german was heard, all spoke only russian.
In Estonia right after the fall of USSR there were returning 3rd and 4th
generation estonians from Russia. They were granted Estonian citizenship
automatically. The retournees blended in the mixed society very well. I
made a program for the Estonian Radio foreign service in swedish and
finnish about them since the matter of returning Ingrians was a hot
potato in Finland at that time. I don't have any idea how big the
numbers of returning balts from Russia were, but this apparently has not
been an issue in any of the Baltic countries.
There is a constant emigration of ethnic Japanese and especially Koreans
in the Russian Far East, but I don't know much about that.
J. Anderson
"Vladimir Makarenko" <vma...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:Xr2dnfPtooq-Ru3X...@giganews.com...
> Your lawyers are not really good according to "Fish called Wanda".
Well, I wouldn't say that. Remember what happened to the American crook (he
fell off the plane), and John Cleese got Jamie Lee Curtis after all (I
wouldn't like the idea of having Tony Curtis as my father-in-law).
vello
As a lot of yanks, you make one common mistake - you compare a country
with a continent. US is a country - like Germany or Italy. In all of
them constitution is the core thing - and that "core thing" IS based
of cultural background of particular nation - in our case US, Germany
or Italy. Culturally there may be varieties inside a nation -
lifestyle in Alaska and Missisipi may differ, South- and North Italy
are completely different and there are different cultures in any end
of Germany. But by other hand there is in most cases some clear things
what differ US, German and Italian cultures. If you want to compare
something with Europe, take America as whole.
vello
> Valtsu wrote:
> > Vladimir Makarenko wrote:
>
> >> How in the world Finland got Russian immigration? Are all the people
> >> amnistied illegals?
>
> >> VM.
>
> > Hardly ;-)
>
> > There have been several waves of Russian immigration.
>
> > Actually quite few came during the century of Velikoe Knyazhestvo
> > Finlyandskoye because of the border that existed all the time. Some
> > businessmen did come, for example Gospodin Sinebrychoff more than 150
> > years ago, who created the Koff beer, still one of the biggest brands
> > here. I guess more Finns moved to Russia than vv. St Petersburg was a
> > lucrative destination for skilled labour and merchants.
>
> > After the revolution there was a big wave of emigrees from Russia, but
> > Finland was mainly a transit country. A few thousand stayed. Many
> > changed their names to be more finnic, and the in general the Russians
> > kept low profile, but were active in their own clubs and other
> > organisations.
>
> > After ww2 Russians, who had lived for centuries in the Karelian areas
> > ceded to the USSR (monks in Valaam and Konevits monasteries, the
> > of Vyborg and Terijoki (present day Zelenogorsk) totalling a few
> > thousand relocated with the Finnish population to other Finnish areas.
>
> > In the 1980-s during the times of president Koivisto started the
> > "returnado" traffic, Ingrian Finns returning to Finland. These were
> > mainly people, whose ancestors had emigrated to Ingria (areas around St
> > Petersburg) when our sovereign the king of Sweden wanted to increase his
> > presence eastwards starting from the 17th century. During ww2 the
> > Germans relocated these people to Finland from the areas they occupied
> > and according to the Paris Peace Protocol after ww2 (most) of them were
> > forced to return to the USSR. These people could immigrate to Finland if
> > they could prove that their name or at least the name of one grandparent
> > could be found in the Lutheran church records kept untill Stalin came to
> > included could not speak a word of Finnish.
>
> > After the downfall of USSR there are also other sorts of immigrants. My
> > neighbour is specialist from Novosibirsk working for Nokia, and he is
> > not the only one of his kind.
>
> > In all there are some 50-75 thousand Russians, who speak Russian as
> > their mother tongue in a country of 5 million. A small number after all.
>
> > valtsu
>
> Wow, quite a story/history.
>
> As to the Ingrians return - I will never forget an early 90-ties scene
> in Sheremetievo airport when I run into a company of what looked like a
> group of peasants in theatrically "peasantish" dresses. They spoke
> Russian which was difficult to understand. Then one of them flashed
> Lufthansa tickets and by that and that one of old woman was addressed
> "Louise" I figured out that these are "Volga" Germans from Kazakhstan
> "repatriating" to Germany. They also had a live goose in a basket. I do
> not BS you. In 90-ties one can see many unbelievable scenes.
>
> VM
We all know the guy with a goose, I think...
Valtsu
> In article <kL%bm.29573$vi5....@uutiset.elisa.fi>, Valtsu
> <val...@stadissa.fi> wrote:
>
>> Vladimir Makarenko wrote:
>>> How in the world Finland got Russian immigration? Are all the people
>>> amnistied illegals?
>>>
>>> VM.
>> Hardly ;-)
>>
>> There have been several waves of Russian immigration.
>>
>> Actually quite few came during the century of Velikoe Knyazhestvo
>> Finlyandskoye because of the border that existed all the time. Some
>> businessmen did come, for example Gospodin Sinebrychoff more than 150
>> years ago, who created the Koff beer, still one of the biggest brands
>> here. I guess more Finns moved to Russia than vv. St Petersburg was a
>> lucrative destination for skilled labour and merchants.
>
> This first wave included the nucleus of today's Jewish population. Staring
> in the 1878s Russian Jews who had served in Finland in the Czar's army
> were allowed to settle here after being released from service.
>
The laws from the Swedish times did not allow Jews to settle. The law
was very intolerant, even Catholics were banned.
Interestingly enough the first moslems to settle in Finland known as
Tatars came during the Grandutchy times 1809-1917. They were retired
military or merchants, just as in the case of Jews.
> <deletions>
>> After the downfall of USSR there are also other sorts of immigrants. My
>> neighbour is specialist from Novosibirsk working for Nokia, and he is
>> not the only one of his kind.
>>
>> In all there are some 50-75 thousand Russians, who speak Russian as
>> their mother tongue in a country of 5 million. A small number after all.
>
> Finland has a substantial immigrant population from the Baltic countries,
> particularly Estonia. Some of these are members of their local
> Russian-speaking communities. nce again, it should be emphasized that
> there is a difference between Russian and Russian speakers. One immigrant
> from Estonia that I have talked to is actually an Ingrian Finn. They make
> up about one per cent of the Estonian population and, as a rule, those of
> his generation received their education in Russian, not Estonian or
> Finnish, and thus have Russian as their preferred public language.
>
It is interesting to see how minorities "choose" which language to start
to use and which group to assimiliate with. In Estonia quite many
Ingrians (who were deported from their original lands during Stalin)
became russian speakers even though estonian would seem to have been
easier. Perhaps the years spent in Siberia in detention and prevailing
political winds were the biggest reasons.
Many estonians in Finland chose to become swedish speakers. One famous
example is Jutta Zilliacus n�e Kingo, a well-known politician, whose
family moved to Finland about a century ago. In this case the most
determing factor might have been social status. At that time upper class
in Finland was still predominantly swedish speaking.
I have a somali colleague, who is officially swedish speaking. He came
to Finland as a toddler with his family and settled in Ostrobothnia in a
small town on the western coast where swedish is the main language. Now
he works in Helsinki and speaks finnsih with the same typical manner as
the swedish speakers of Ostrobothnia do.
vello
> In article <kL%bm.29573$vi5.11...@uutiset.elisa.fi>, Valtsu
>
At about 1986-1988 I was in Finland with Estonian national team of 14
year old ice hockey players. Ice hockey was popular amoung russian
speakers so not a single estonian boy was there. It was politically
hot time so I tried to be as polite as possible - till I discover that
almost all adult trainers and ypung players consider himself as
ingerians and despite speaking russian, they think about political
things exactly like I do back then.
J. Anderson
> I figured out that these are "Volga" Germans from Kazakhstan
> "repatriating" to Germany. They also had a live goose in a basket.
A goose? Oh, you must have met Herr Gans! Actually he was a Volga German
too, originally. Many German geese flew to Russia during Catherine II's
reign and settled there.
J. Anderson
"Valtsu" <val...@stadissa.fi> wrote in message
news:98dcm.29686$vi5....@uutiset.elisa.fi...
> Many estonians in Finland chose to become swedish speakers. One famous
> example is Jutta Zilliacus n�e Kingo, a well-known politician, whose
> family moved to Finland about a century ago. In this case the most
> determing factor might have been social status. At that time upper class
> in Finland was still predominantly swedish speaking.
>
> I have a somali colleague, who is officially swedish speaking. He came to
> Finland as a toddler with his family and settled in Ostrobothnia in a
> small town on the western coast where swedish is the main language. Now he
> works in Helsinki and speaks finnsih with the same typical manner as the
> swedish speakers of Ostrobothnia do.
In the soccer family (Y)Eremenko, both the sons (Aleksey J:r and Roman)
speak better Swedish than Finnish. They grew up in predominantly
Swedish-speaking Jakobstad/Pietarsaari, where their father (Aleksey S:r)
played in the local team (Jaro).
Btw, also many Russian post-1917 emigrants became Svecophones in Finland.
Perhaps they found Swedish easier to learn, or then the reason was social,
like you mentioned.
Anton
> In the soccer family (Y)Eremenko, both the sons (Aleksey J:r and Roman)
> speak better Swedish than Finnish. They grew up in predominantly
> Swedish-speaking Jakobstad/Pietarsaari, where their father (Aleksey S:r)
> played in the local team (Jaro).
...and may I add that both brothers play for the national team and
Alexei Jr was thought to be one of the very top prospects a few years
ago, but nightlife got the better of him for a while (he was sentenced
for drunk driving and involved in bar brawls). Both brothers play in the
Ukrainian league next season.
> Btw, also many Russian post-1917 emigrants became Svecophones in Finland.
> Perhaps they found Swedish easier to learn, or then the reason was social,
> like you mentioned.
I went to Swedish speaking school and had three Jews on my class. In
fact I don't know a single Turkuan Jew who went to a Finnish speaking
school. Communities of Jews exists only in Helsinki and Turku; the
Capital and the former Swedish-era Capital. In the 1800s and early 1900s
the upper stratas in these main cities consisted almost entirely of
Swedish speakers. It seems logical that most emigrants from Russia,
Jewish or of other ethnicity, would want to position themselves to that
social group.
--
Anton
Anton
> On Jul 30, 10:41 am, hol...@mappi.helsinki.fi (Eugene Holman) wrote:
>> One immigrant
>> from Estonia that I have talked to is actually an Ingrian Finn. They make
>> up about one per cent of the Estonian population and, as a rule, those of
>> his generation received their education in Russian, not Estonian or
>> Finnish, and thus have Russian as their preferred public language.
> At about 1986-1988 I was in Finland with Estonian national team of 14
> year old ice hockey players. Ice hockey was popular amoung russian
> speakers so not a single estonian boy was there. It was politically
> hot time so I tried to be as polite as possible - till I discover that
> almost all adult trainers and ypung players consider himself as
> ingerians and despite speaking russian, they think about political
> things exactly like I do back then.
Was Toivo Suursoo one of them? His name at least sounds more Estonian
than Russian. He played for TPS Turku a few seasons in the 1990s and
scored some 20 goals or so in his best season. He was even drafted by
the Detroit Red Wings to the NHL, but never made it to the big league.
He was one of those players recruited by coach Vladimir Yurzinov (who to
my knowledge still today has a house in Turku). Many NHL and national
team top players came through the TPS system: Latvian NHL defender
Karlis Skrastins, German Titov (ex-Calgary NHL) and of course half of
the Finnish NHL player corps of today (Koivu, Kiprusoff, Timonen, Salo
etc).
--
Anton
Ostap S. B. M. Bender Jr.
Why do you think I was replying to you? I have no beef with what you
said. I was replying to Tadas. Re-read.
vello
Maybe he was but as he can't be famous in 14 years, I have no idea.
Despite name suursoo is russophone - maybe from mixed family.
J. Anderson
"Anton" <anton....@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:h4rrc9$vi0$1...@news.eternal-september.org...
We probably went to the same school then, the one nowadays called
Katedralskolan. In my time, the art teacher was a Jew (he gave me a 10!),
and his sons were in different grades in the school. The 'development' of
their family name illustrates the gradual integration of the Jews into
Finnish society. Originally the name was Manul(j)kin, my teacher's
generation de-Russified it into Manuel, and then the sons turned it into the
Swedish-sounding Manell. I'm expecting their kids to take the next step and
start calling themselves Mannila ;-)
J. Anderson
"vello" <vell...@hot.ee> wrote in message
news:fabee5c8-4625-470b...@c2g2000yqi.googlegroups.com...
> Despite name suursoo is russophone - maybe from mixed family.
I would prefer a name like Suur-Soome...
Anton
> "Anton" <anton....@gmail.com> wrote in message
>> I went to Swedish speaking school and had three Jews on my class. In
>> fact I don't know a single Turkuan Jew who went to a Finnish speaking
>> school. Communities of Jews exists only in Helsinki and Turku; the
>> Capital and the former Swedish-era Capital. In the 1800s and early 1900s
>> the upper stratas in these main cities consisted almost entirely of
>> Swedish speakers. It seems logical that most emigrants from Russia,
>> Jewish or of other ethnicity, would want to position themselves to that
>> social group.
> We probably went to the same school then, the one nowadays called
> Katedralskolan. In my time, the art teacher was a Jew (he gave me a 10!),
> and his sons were in different grades in the school. The 'development' of
> their family name illustrates the gradual integration of the Jews into
> Finnish society. Originally the name was Manul(j)kin, my teacher's
> generation de-Russified it into Manuel, and then the sons turned it into the
> Swedish-sounding Manell. I'm expecting their kids to take the next step and
> start calling themselves Mannila ;-)
As it happens I ran into a certain "Manuljkin" here the other day :) He
went to 'parallel class' with me in the 7th grade (St. Olofsskolan). He
is a graphical artists and makes posters for music clubs and such, and
also does DJ gigs. He probably is the grandson of the art teacher
Manuljkin :)
No, I never went to Katedralskolan since my family moved out of town
when I was 14, but most of my childhood friends did. My childhood
elementary school nowadays houses a restaurant with its own small brewery.
--
Anton
Anton
Maybe you guys even share this preference? I remember some Estonian
paper (Postimees?) 'accidentally' having an old map of Finland
(pre-1940) in some news concerning Finland on their website quite
recently. That must have gone really well with the lads in Moskau...
--
Anton
Vladimir Makarenko
> "Vladimir Makarenko" <vma...@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:Xr2dnfPtooq-Ru3X...@giganews.com...
>
>> Your lawyers are not really good according to "Fish called Wanda".
>
> Well, I wouldn't say that. Remember what happened to the American crook (he
> fell off the plane)
It is a Euro agitprop: the guy was not some crook, he was a veteran, ex
CIA who served his country heroically and suffered from PTSD.
Intelligent, straightforward, Buddhism and guns loving, American as an
apple pie.
VM.
J. Anderson
As a matter of fact, it's easy to find information on Jews, thanks to sites
like this:
http://www.amitys.com/phpGedView/individual.php?pid=I3679&ged=Gedcom.ged
Like you see, my art teacher, Josef Manuel, lived to be 100 years old. The
family was/is very talented. Two of his brothers were jazz musicians, and if
I'm not mistaken, Marion Rung is his niece. Josef was married to Ruth
Valentina Modig-Manuel (born in Minsk), one of the great names in Finnish
ceramic art. Their sons, however, seem to have pretty bourgeois professions.
J. Anderson
Moskau is an infinitely shortlived phenomenon seen in a geological
timescale. Moskaus (and Piters) come and go, but the Fennoscandian Shield
has been there for 3 billion years, and it will outlive humanity not to
mention the RF. Finland's political border in the east should naturally
coincide with the geological one. Surely that is not too much to ask? Like
this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fennoscandia
Vladimir Makarenko
First let's start with basics - I am not a "yankee" because a simple
fact that I am a Russkie. Besides call somebody in NYC a "Yankee" and
they decide that either you from Boston - a sworn baseball enemy of NYC,
or from South which still cannot get over of losing the war.
> you make one common mistake - you compare a country
> with a continent. US is a country - like Germany or Italy.
Not really - the US is a bigger entity than just "a country". There are
only few such self generating entities on this planet and the US today
is the only one self sufficient.
> In all of
> them constitution is the core thing - and that "core thing" IS based
> of cultural background of particular nation - in our case US, Germany
> or Italy.
This is what I am talking about - that the US Constitution is
"estranged" from "culture". Remember - it was written with explicit ban
on mixing religion and state with no reference to any ethnic group - in
XVIII cent.!
Euro Constitutions are rather legalizing particular basic cultural
treats which were in place for centuries. In the US case it was created
from a scratch, a product of a pure intellectual effort.
> Culturally there may be varieties inside a nation -
> lifestyle in Alaska and Missisipi may differ, South- and North Italy
> are completely different and there are different cultures in any end
> of Germany. But by other hand there is in most cases some clear things
> what differ US, German and Italian cultures. If you want to compare
> something with Europe, take America as whole.
>
I do take it as a whole when it makes sense.
VM.
ps - I've seen another amusing documentary on Soviet space program, -
about "Almaz" station, which was a super duper manned spy station armed
with a real gun to destroy a "kamikaze" satellite if being approached.
Vladimir Makarenko
> On Jul 30, 12:44 am, Vladimir Makarenko <vmak...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Valtsu wrote:
>>> Vladimir Makarenko wrote:
>>>> How in the world Finland got Russian immigration? Are all the people
>>>> amnistied illegals?
>>>> VM.
>>> Hardly ;-)
>>> There have been several waves of Russian immigration.
>>> Actually quite few came during the century of Velikoe Knyazhestvo
>>> Finlyandskoye because of the border that existed all the time. Some
>>> businessmen did come, for example Gospodin Sinebrychoff more than 150
>>> years ago, who created the Koff beer, still one of the biggest brands
>>> here. I guess more Finns moved to Russia than vv. St Petersburg was a
>>> lucrative destination for skilled labour and merchants.
>>> After the revolution there was a big wave of emigrees from Russia, but
>>> Finland was mainly a transit country. A few thousand stayed. Many
>>> changed their names to be more finnic, and the in general the Russians
>>> kept low profile, but were active in their own clubs and other
>>> organisations.
>>> After ww2 Russians, who had lived for centuries in the Karelian areas
>>> ceded to the USSR (monks in Valaam and Konevits monasteries, the
>>> of Vyborg and Terijoki (present day Zelenogorsk) totalling a few
>>> thousand relocated with the Finnish population to other Finnish areas.
>>> In the 1980-s during the times of president Koivisto started the
>>> "returnado" traffic, Ingrian Finns returning to Finland. These were
>>> mainly people, whose ancestors had emigrated to Ingria (areas around St
>>> Petersburg) when our sovereign the king of Sweden wanted to increase his
>>> presence eastwards starting from the 17th century. During ww2 the
>>> Germans relocated these people to Finland from the areas they occupied
>>> and according to the Paris Peace Protocol after ww2 (most) of them were
>>> forced to return to the USSR. These people could immigrate to Finland if
>>> they could prove that their name or at least the name of one grandparent
>>> could be found in the Lutheran church records kept untill Stalin came to
>>> included could not speak a word of Finnish.
>>> After the downfall of USSR there are also other sorts of immigrants. My
>>> neighbour is specialist from Novosibirsk working for Nokia, and he is
>>> not the only one of his kind.
>>> In all there are some 50-75 thousand Russians, who speak Russian as
>>> their mother tongue in a country of 5 million. A small number after all.
>>> valtsu
>> Wow, quite a story/history.
>>
>> As to the Ingrians return - I will never forget an early 90-ties scene
>> in Sheremetievo airport when I run into a company of what looked like a
>> group of peasants in theatrically "peasantish" dresses. They spoke
>> Russian which was difficult to understand. Then one of them flashed
>> Lufthansa tickets and by that and that one of old woman was addressed
>> "Louise" I figured out that these are "Volga" Germans from Kazakhstan
>> "repatriating" to Germany. They also had a live goose in a basket. I do
>> not BS you. In 90-ties one can see many unbelievable scenes.
>>
>> VM
>
> We all know the guy with a goose, I think...
>
Which makes perfect sense - he was (or claimed to be) after all a son of
lieutenant Shmidt whose family came from Ost Zee Germans, - the elite of
Czarist Russia's Navy.
VM.
Vladimir Makarenko
That is what I expect soon to start again. Real estate in Europe are too
expensive and scarce nowadays, Russia on the other hand, even in Moscow
region has abundant abounded lands. No oil though.
VM.
vello
> vello wrote:
>
> > As a lot of yanks,
>
> First let's start with basics - I am not a "yankee" because a simple
> fact that I am a Russkie. Besides call somebody in NYC a "Yankee" and
> they decide that either you from Boston - a sworn baseball enemy of NYC,
> or from South which still cannot get over of losing the war.
>
> > you make one common mistake - you compare a country
> > with a continent. US is a country - like Germany or Italy.
>
> Not really - the US is a bigger entity than just "a country". There are
> only few such self generating entities on this planet and the US today
> is the only one self sufficient.
US is by far not self sufficient if to look on one side of coin - and
any country on Earth except polar stations are self sufficient
potentially. If you don't believe me try to purchase US-made TV-set,
tape recorder, video camera, photo camera or some other very common
things as proof of first side of coin. For other side of the coin,
look for world history up to 1900 - not just nations, every county,
almost any farm was basically self sufficient. So it is just
profitable to change things, not inevitable.
Other, don't confuse quality and quantity. US is big and developed
society for now but there are much bigger (China, India) and much more
developed (Swiss, Lux, Nordics) societies available.
>
> > In all of
> > them constitution is the core thing - and that "core thing" IS based
> > of cultural background of particular nation - in our case US, Germany
> > or Italy.
>
> This is what I am talking about - that the US Constitution is
> "estranged" from "culture". Remember - it was written with explicit ban
> on mixing religion and state with no reference to any ethnic group - in
> XVIII cent.!
That paper was written by XVIII cent. white anglosaxonian protestants
and it carries best hopes anglosaxonian protestants find on basis of
their culture. We just can't jump out of our cultural background.
Depending in what age you leave Russia and how strong is Russian
community in your neighbourhood your cultural background is x%Russian,
y% American.
> Euro Constitutions are rather legalizing particular basic cultural
> treats which were in place for centuries. In the US case it was created
> from a scratch, a product of a pure intellectual effort.
Guys writing that paper were 99,9% british intellectuals and was based
on european ideas starting from old Athens democracy. US was too young
back then to offer independent intellectual potential. btw, most of
European constitutions are written in scimilar way: by intellectual
idealists after fall of kings/kaisers regime.
>
> > Culturally there may be varieties inside a nation -
> > lifestyle in Alaska and Missisipi may differ, South- and North Italy
> > are completely different and there are different cultures in any end
> > of Germany. But by other hand there is in most cases some clear things
> > what differ US, German and Italian cultures. If you want to compare
> > something with Europe, take America as whole.
>
> I do take it as a whole when it makes sense.
It makes sense any time when we talk about continents or about
nations. Comparing forest with a tree is confusing, even it that tree
is sequoia :-)
> VM.
> ps - I've seen another amusing documentary on Soviet space program, -
> about "Almaz" station, which was a super duper manned spy station armed
> with a real gun to destroy a "kamikaze" satellite if being approached.
It was nice thing and Energia booster was developed for Almaz, not
Buran. But then the oil price crushes and all other things in the same
way...
>
>
>
>
Peteris Cedrins
Looking over this thread again, I can't help staring at this bonbon
from Gintautas:
"If there were any evidence that the Baltic-resident Russians were at
least just a little grateful for the 'tolerance' extended toward them,
that might be an argument for continuing."
Why would anybody owe anybody for common decency, ever?
How dare you spout this shit in a region where so many have died due
to indecency, many at your brothers' hands? Is gratitude ever in any
way necessary to the extension of tolerance?
If what you were saying made any sense -- even then this would be
poisonous shit. But it doesn't; it is unutterably illogical.
I lack the words, Gintai.
/P
Anton
> Anton wrote:
>> Vladimir Makarenko kirjoitti:
>>> Peteris Cedrins wrote:
>>
>>>> As to lawsuits, we're considerably more advanced in Europe
>>> Oh, sure. I just do not when the official EU's name change is scheduled
>>> to happen? To EK - European Khalifat?
>>>> and are all subject to the same court in Strasbourg.
>>> Is it already Sharia or still runs on Roman system?
>> You are mocking European legal systems and actually think the American
>> is better? Or were you being sarcastic?
> I do think despite all the sarcasm and many many "but" and "however"
> that American system is better, it has a nerve to enter legally
> uncharted territories. Euros usually shy away.
...and it also provides new possibilities of exaggerations, even
miscarriage of justice. The one with better lawyers (read: deeper
pockets) comes out as the winner. In that game the small guy gets burned.
> Hilarious and very clever illustration - the "Boston Legal" show.
>>> Why would I sue you? - you are not filthy rich.
>> Ok, you managed to put the finger of the rotten tissue of the US legal
>> system yourself - I don't know if it was your intention or not. The US
>> system is as much an instrument of legalized theft as much as it is an
>> institution to hand out justice to citizens who need it.
> It is not "theft" it's an extension of economic liberties into the
> sphere of social relations.
You are capitalizing economically on somebody elses mistakes, even
accidents. Like you forget to put your handbrake on when you park, the
car glides and kills somebody, you are sued and lose everything you
have. Not only is one life lost but two. A very cruel and unforgiving
system and mentality. There is a sense of Hammurabian "eye for an eye"
payback mentality in the system I find very repulsive indeed.
> The US has no cap on how much money one can
> make running even very unholy business, but to level the field there is
> no cap how much one would pay if caught cheating or hurting.
Well there is no fixed amount in Europe either.
> An example in hand which says it all - tobacco companies - in Europe
> they got away with a slap on the wrist, in the States they were
> bulldozed with punishment payments of hundreds of billions.
That is only one case. In another case in USA Microsoft was let off the
hook in an antirust case, but in a similar case the EU actually sent a
multibillion bill when they did not comply with their ruling.
>> Also the harshness of the sentences in criminal justice are rather in
>> the club of the 3rd world, not the club of established 1st world
>> democracies. In some regards the system is even more cruel than Russia's
>> (the US still murders prisoners, while Russia does not).
> The US is much more multidimensional than EU, there are states which
> exercise death penalty, there are also which don't.
I wouldn't necessarily put it as more multidimensional: to me it proves
that some parts of US is barbaric and backwards, while other parts are
with the sane world. I can assure you that the legal practices in
Finland, Britain, Portugal and Bulgaria are quite different, but the
death penalty issue is one of those where civilized countries
unanimously agree it is barbaric and has no place in 21st century league
of countries that aim to be "civilized", non-barbaric ones. Heck, even
Russia for once did the right thing and got rid of this barbaric practice.
> You may find that Vermont prisons top the Euro hospitals, and some
> places in Mississippi are worse than hell itself. Every community -
> state lives up to its average "quality".
That's what is frightening in a country like USA from a foreigner's
perspective: unpredictable.
>>> But somebody will sue
>>> Latvian state for sure.
>>> If it didn't happened so far then only because you are underdeveloped to
>>> reach a stage of "litigation society", however one day people learn
>>> about American Dream: to sue somebody and retire with very healthy
>>> checking account. Then the music come. Sooner than later.
>> I sure hope the "American Dream" of legalized theft does never arrive.
> It does for few. As a matter of fact for A few. Bush tried very hard to
> put a cap on punishment pay but Dems threaten to filibuster it into
> eternity so the Holy Right of the poor to bankrupt the Rich is still
> there. It is about Justice not theft. Local judges and juries are very
> common sense folk.
You look at this from a "Robin Hood" perspective, where the small guy
can challenge the big ones and even win. Sometimes it is the other way
around: a Monsanto throws seeds of their transgenic soy or corn in the
field of a farmer growing ordinary 'conventional' stuff. They have a
patent for their genetically engineered product and threaten to sue the
farmer. The farmer knows he can't afford to fight and caves in: he will
now pay to Monsanto and by all his seed from them.
>> If it did then start-up companies would have to allocate resources to
>> their legal department rather than spend it on R&D, marketing and hiring
>> more competent people to take care of their core business. The US
>> justice system has a big "cancer tumor" to it almost as much as it is
>> contributing for the good of the society, it's people, companies and its
>> institutions.
> That misconception - about the "tumor".
The amount of money the whole USA spends on lawyers and and arguing in
court is astronomical. It is really a huge % of the GNP compared to
other countries.
> As to start up companies - it's exaggeration - no start ups spent too
> much on lawyers, they do not have any money anyway, why would anybody
> sue them?
>
> VMble
If you are a mega corporation you'd like to smash any emerging
competition ASAP. The computer business is a good example where the big
players have piled up with huge "patent portfolios" they threaten with
unless an emerging start up agree to sell their product or whole company
to the big fish. (Sometimes it works the other way around: a small one
is able to milk a big one by threatening to sue for "patent
infringement" or other "violation of intellectual property".)
--
Anton
Vladimir Makarenko
> On Jul 30, 5:40 pm, Vladimir Makarenko <vmak...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> vello wrote:
>
>>> As a lot of yanks,
>> First let's start with basics - I am not a "yankee" because a simple
>> fact that I am a Russkie. Besides call somebody in NYC a "Yankee" and
>> they decide that either you from Boston - a sworn baseball enemy of NYC,
>> or from South which still cannot get over of losing the war.
>>
>>> you make one common mistake - you compare a country
>>> with a continent. US is a country - like Germany or Italy.
>> Not really - the US is a bigger entity than just "a country". There are
>> only few such self generating entities on this planet and the US today
>> is the only one self sufficient.
>
> US is by far not self sufficient if to look on one side of coin - and
> any country on Earth except polar stations are self sufficient
> potentially. If you don't believe me try to purchase US-made TV-set,
> tape recorder, video camera, photo camera or some other very common
> things as proof of first side of coin.
Hm, I have read it and did all what required by old Soviet book: logged
it, put it on file, made a call to Homeland Security Office, put local
cops on alert. Could you also please send your fingerprints? How long
you were training in Al Qaida camps? Do you have relatives in Saudi
Arabia? Is one of them has a name "Osama" ?
> For other side of the coin,
> look for world history up to 1900 - not just nations, every county,
> almost any farm was basically self sufficient. So it is just
> profitable to change things, not inevitable.
> Other, don't confuse quality and quantity. US is big and developed
> society for now but there are much bigger (China, India) and much more
> developed (Swiss, Lux, Nordics) societies available.
Look at Money - an ultimate estimate. Today only the US can survive if
the rest of the world "disappear". The SU was the same. Russia is not.
>>> In all of
>>> them constitution is the core thing - and that "core thing" IS based
>>> of cultural background of particular nation - in our case US, Germany
>>> or Italy.
>> This is what I am talking about - that the US Constitution is
>> "estranged" from "culture". Remember - it was written with explicit ban
>> on mixing religion and state with no reference to any ethnic group - in
>> XVIII cent.!
>
> That paper was written by XVIII cent. white anglosaxonian protestants
> and it carries best hopes anglosaxonian protestants find on basis of
> their culture.
We may argue about that till our voices get husky - but many ideas had
nothing to do with "protestants" but with Enlightenment which was rooted
in Catholic France.
> We just can't jump out of our cultural background.
That's for sure. I still cannot figure out what the hell is
"Thanksgiving" is about.
> Depending in what age you leave Russia and how strong is Russian
> community in your neighbourhood your cultural background is x%Russian,
> y% American.
This is just not the case. It is non linear as I found out many very
"Russian" conceptions, feelings are just as well "American".
I think I mentioned that years ago how one American after *my* version
of Chechenya events asked me: why don't you bomb them? (if you told the
story the question would be: should we bomb Rooskies?).
On the other hand - I will never come to terms with American obsession
with God and religion. It just freaks me out on principle: they
believing so delegate part of their life to a gamble.
>
>> Euro Constitutions are rather legalizing particular basic cultural
>> treats which were in place for centuries. In the US case it was created
>> from a scratch, a product of a pure intellectual effort.
>
> Guys writing that paper were 99,9% british intellectuals and was based
> on european ideas starting from old Athens democracy. US was too young
> back then to offer independent intellectual potential. btw, most of
> European constitutions are written in scimilar way: by intellectual
> idealists after fall of kings/kaisers regime.
American Constitution was written by very sober and clever people,
doesn't matter where they came from. As a matter of fact - if you look
at the history of the US it is always going the way UP without
catastrophe falls like European Mega Slaughters of WWI and WWII.
These people did had their roots in Enlightenment as a wake up from
centuries of savagery Europe spent between Rome and XVIII America.
It was despite not due to Europe, they escaped across the Pond for a
reason. France and a century later Russia exploded against the usual
Euro ways just to produce a mirror monsters. America is intelligent
design, Europe is a slow huge elephant of Darwin's evolution.
>>> Culturally there may be varieties inside a nation -
>>> lifestyle in Alaska and Missisipi may differ, South- and North Italy
>>> are completely different and there are different cultures in any end
>>> of Germany. But by other hand there is in most cases some clear things
>>> what differ US, German and Italian cultures. If you want to compare
>>> something with Europe, take America as whole.
>> I do take it as a whole when it makes sense.
>
> It makes sense any time when we talk about continents or about
> nations. Comparing forest with a tree is confusing, even it that tree
> is sequoia :-)
>> VM.
>> ps - I've seen another amusing documentary on Soviet space program, -
>> about "Almaz" station, which was a super duper manned spy station armed
>> with a real gun to destroy a "kamikaze" satellite if being approached.
>
> It was nice thing and Energia booster was developed for Almaz, not
> Buran. But then the oil price crushes and all other things in the same
> way...
As I understood the cause was different - out of four manned missions
only two were successful the other two were fighting life threatening
troubles - one when aboard lost power for a couple of days.
I wonder how much sci-fi romantism played a role in the project.
VM.
>>
>>
>>
>
>
vello
> vello wrote:
> > On Jul 30, 5:40 pm, Vladimir Makarenko <vmak...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> vello wrote:
>
> >>> As a lot of yanks,
> >> First let's start with basics - I am not a "yankee" because a simple
> >> fact that I am a Russkie. Besides call somebody in NYC a "Yankee" and
> >> they decide that either you from Boston - a sworn baseball enemy of NYC,
> >> or from South which still cannot get over of losing the war.
>
> >>> you make one common mistake - you compare a country
> >>> with a continent. US is a country - like Germany or Italy.
> >> Not really - the US is a bigger entity than just "a country". There are
> >> only few such self generating entities on this planet and the US today
> >> is the only one self sufficient.
>
> > US is by far not self sufficient if to look on one side of coin - and
> > any country on Earth except polar stations are self sufficient
> > potentially. If you don't believe me try to purchase US-made TV-set,
> > tape recorder, video camera, photo camera or some other very common
> > things as proof of first side of coin.
>
> Hm, I have read it and did all what required by old Soviet book: logged
> it, put it on file, made a call to Homeland Security Office, put local
> cops on alert. Could you also please send your fingerprints? How long
> you were training in Al Qaida camps? Do you have relatives in Saudi
> Arabia? Is one of them has a name "Osama" ?
They have my fingerprints anyway. I will say "pass" if they will ask
three drops of blood. btw, name fashions do change - for example,
"Hussein" was out in US just decade away, today it is very honorable
name.
>
> > For other side of the coin,
> > look for world history up to 1900 - not just nations, every county,
> > almost any farm was basically self sufficient. So it is just
> > profitable to change things, not inevitable.
> > Other, don't confuse quality and quantity. US is big and developed
> > society for now but there are much bigger (China, India) and much more
> > developed (Swiss, Lux, Nordics) societies available.
>
> Look at Money - an ultimate estimate. Today only the US can survive if
> the rest of the world "disappear". The SU was the same. Russia is not.
There was also Hoxha's Albania where foreign trade was forbidden by
law (Hoxha's words acted as laws back then). But what US is producing
today are mostly ideas. Without buyers of those ideas - you had to pay
for a shirt what a shirt will pay if sewed in US by US salary
standards.
>
> >>> In all of
> >>> them constitution is the core thing - and that "core thing" IS based
> >>> of cultural background of particular nation - in our case US, Germany
> >>> or Italy.
> >> This is what I am talking about - that the US Constitution is
> >> "estranged" from "culture". Remember - it was written with explicit ban
> >> on mixing religion and state with no reference to any ethnic group - in
> >> XVIII cent.!
>
> > That paper was written by XVIII cent. white anglosaxonian protestants
> > and it carries best hopes anglosaxonian protestants find on basis of
> > their culture.
>
> We may argue about that till our voices get husky - but many ideas had
> nothing to do with "protestants" but with Enlightenment which was rooted
> in Catholic France.
Yes, those WASP's were big fans of incoming French Revolution - but no
frenchmen was even near the table when this paper was written. And in
details it turns totally British: they don't want a King, but
Cromwell's case shows any "ordinary man" with uncontrolled power may
appear even worse. So separation of powers was written in that paper.
More, thanks God, if you read that paper, there is nothing like French
way to use political ideals as juridical terminology opening Pandoras
box of endless interpretation of basic laws - what turns into
bloodshed in France as one may expect. But constitution is calm and
calculated thing, nordic by nature.
>
> > We just can't jump out of our cultural background.
>
> That's for sure. I still cannot figure out what the hell is
> "Thanksgiving" is about.
>
> > Depending in what age you leave Russia and how strong is Russian
> > community in your neighbourhood your cultural background is x%Russian,
> > y% American.
>
> This is just not the case. It is non linear as I found out many very
> "Russian" conceptions, feelings are just as well "American".
> I think I mentioned that years ago how one American after *my* version
> of Chechenya events asked me: why don't you bomb them? (if you told the
> story the question would be: should we bomb Rooskies?).
But "you" did it effectively - Grozny was levelled. btw, in that
thing US and Russia are someway similar.
> On the other hand - I will never come to terms with American obsession
> with God and religion. It just freaks me out on principle: they
> believing so delegate part of their life to a gamble.
>
>
>
> >> Euro Constitutions are rather legalizing particular basic cultural
> >> treats which were in place for centuries. In the US case it was created
> >> from a scratch, a product of a pure intellectual effort.
>
> > Guys writing that paper were 99,9% british intellectuals and was based
> > on european ideas starting from old Athens democracy. US was too young
> > back then to offer independent intellectual potential. btw, most of
> > European constitutions are written in scimilar way: by intellectual
> > idealists after fall of kings/kaisers regime.
>
> American Constitution was written by very sober and clever people,
> doesn't matter where they came from.
Yau agreed with me we can't jump out of our shoes. If constitution
would be written by frenchmen or spaniards, it would be different
paper (no idea would it be better or worse then English original).
As a matter of fact - if you look
> at the history of the US it is always going the way UP without
> catastrophe falls like European Mega Slaughters of WWI and WWII.
> These people did had their roots in Enlightenment as a wake up from
> centuries of savagery Europe spent between Rome and XVIII America.
> It was despite not due to Europe, they escaped across the Pond for a
> reason. France and a century later Russia exploded against the usual
> Euro ways just to produce a mirror monsters. America is intelligent
> design, Europe is a slow huge elephant of Darwin's evolution.
US was happy not having real competition in American hemisphere so
after killing down aborigins and robbing big part of Mexico their
possibilities to behave badly were seriously limited by nature. btw,
from the end of ww2, US share in world GDP and trade is constantly
falling. For today about half is gone what was after war.
>
>
>
>
>
> >>> Culturally there may be varieties inside a nation -
> >>> lifestyle in Alaska and Missisipi may differ, South- and North Italy
> >>> are completely different and there are different cultures in any end
> >>> of Germany. But by other hand there is in most cases some clear things
> >>> what differ US, German and Italian cultures. If you want to compare
> >>> something with Europe, take America as whole.
> >> I do take it as a whole when it makes sense.
>
> > It makes sense any time when we talk about continents or about
> > nations. Comparing forest with a tree is confusing, even it that tree
> > is sequoia :-)
> >> VM.
> >> ps - I've seen another amusing documentary on Soviet space program, -
> >> about "Almaz" station, which was a super duper manned spy station armed
> >> with a real gun to destroy a "kamikaze" satellite if being approached.
>
> > It was nice thing and Energia booster was developed for Almaz, not
> > Buran. But then the oil price crushes and all other things in the same
> > way...
>
> As I understood the cause was different - out of four manned missions
> only two were successful the other two were fighting life threatening
> troubles - one when aboard lost power for a couple of days.
>
> I wonder how much sci-fi romantism played a role in the project.
Sorry, you seemly think Polyus - a project of "space gunship" - it
borns and dies with Energia, try Google. May be wrong but by me Almaz
was never "gunned" (was wrong, they had something on board, was it
airgun or 30mm aircraft cannon. But Polyus was much more sophisticated
thing, real batlleship for Star Wars.)
>
> VM.
>
lorad
> On Jul 28, 10:10 pm, Dmitry <dmitrijsfedot...@inbox.lv> wrote:
>
> > > Obviously the owner should fire this dumb employee for scaring off a
> > > customer.
>
> > It becomes more complicated when it comes to places like pharmacy. I
> > thought that in medical profession (incl.retail) one has to put
> > language principles aside (even if you don't have a common language
> > you should try to help, "lectures" should be saved for outside work
> > time).
>
> For healthcare, it is essential to give help in patients own language
> if only possible. for Baltics, maybe be special medical centres must
> be created, at least in Estonia and Latvia with service in Russian
> readily available. normally I think I'm fluent in Russian, but if to
> think about diseases just pestis and sniffle are only ones I know how
> to call them in Russian, so without service in Estonian I would be in
> trouble (I got my russian in age anything tied to health was dad-mummy
> things to me)
Medical care for russian-speakers does not require any knowledge of
russian.
For minor illnesses and loss of small extremities, a prescription of
2 litres of vodka will do.
For more serious emergencies; 4 litres.
Vladimir Makarenko
This is Petya what I think:
Tadas thinks that enemy is outside - Russkies, Yankees, some self hating
Balt, etc.
Me think enemy is INSIDE. You know well I have a problem to verbalize,
to express what I think to put in words.
I do not like what he says very much, I think it is " self excuse" .
The ends just do not meet.
If he was up to what he preaches he must as native English speaker
invite locals for free lessons of English - Adults and children - once a
week.
Instead he bitches that Rooslies speaks Russian.
When I retire or have spare time I will teach local kids that Math is
not Voodoo but a way to of mental discipline.
I just upset about Tadas - he is not stupid, he is disoriented.
VM.
Vladimir Makarenko
If you allow me to change the topic: within few decades few Revolutions
took place: American - total success, French - disaster, Russian - total
disaster.
I wish John comment on that.
VM.
J. Anderson
> If you allow me to change the topic: within few decades few Revolutions
> took place: American - total success, French - disaster, Russian - total
> disaster.
> I wish John comment on that.
What can I say? The two disasters were social revolutions, the successful
one in North America was not a revolution at all in that respect. No more
than the Baltic or Finnish separations from Russia have been called
'revolutions' (which is not a positively charged word in our countries). We
call them liberation wars, and that would be a correct description also of
the American 'revolution'.
The French revolution was a disaster only in a short time perspective. If
you look at its long-term consequences, it has been a success.
The Russian revolution was a disaster because it was initially a success.
This made it possible for the clique around Lenin to remain in power in the
midst of the general turmoil (now don't blame the 'Latvians' again!). NEP
might have taken Russia on an entirely different track -- towards something
similar to the system in China today. Perhaps Stalin realized this and saw
that it would ultimately lead to the loss of power for the Bolshies and,
especially, for himself.
Tadas Blinda
> Looking over this thread again, I can't help staring at this bonbon:
>
> "If there were any evidence that the Baltic-resident Russians were at
> least just a little grateful for the 'tolerance' extended toward them,
> that might be an argument for continuing."
>
> Why would anybody owe anybody for common decency, ever?
Why would anyone expect common decency from the Russians, ever? They
tried to stop us speaking our own language in our own counrty.
> Is gratitude ever in any way necessary to the extension of tolerance?
The Baltic russkies ought to try and find out some time. Even just
ceasing their lies about the way they are allegedly treated would be
'gratitude' enough.
> I lack the words
That's nothing new. Just be careful you don't explode from over-
inflated self-righteousness. Ditto for Holman. Don't know why you
are buying his crap. If pharmacists in London (or Moskau, for that
matter) aren't obliged to speak anything but their national language
to customers, expecting more from Balts is treating them as second
class citizens.
Eugene Holman
<860d5729-5e8d-48e6...@c14g2000yqm.googlegroups.com>, Tadas
Blinda <tadas....@lycos.es> wrote:
> On Jul 30, 10:22=A0pm, Peteris Cedrins <cedr...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Looking over this thread again, I can't help staring at this bonbon:
> >
> > "If there were any evidence that the Baltic-resident Russians were at
> > least just a little grateful for the 'tolerance' extended toward them,
> > that might be an argument for continuing."
> >
> > Why would anybody owe anybody for common decency, ever?
>
> Why would anyone expect common decency from the Russians, ever? They
> tried to stop us speaking our own language in our own counrty.
Yes, for a few decades during the late 19th century, until they realized
the futility of the effort.
Trying to stop people from speaking their own language is no monopoly of
the Russians. Look what the British did to Irish, what the Americans did
to most of their indigenous languages, or at what many post-colonial
countries do to the language of their former colonizers. Then there is the
question of the "wrong" variety of the language, brilliantly illustrated
by the erstwhile efforts to prevent "Ebonics" from being used as a medium
for classroom instruction in Oakland, California a little over ten years
ago (http://jbp.sagepub.com/cgi/content/abstract/23/3/208).
Lithuanian communist strongman Antanas Snieckus evolved into something as
close to a Lithuanian nationalist as was possible within the communist
ideology. Linguistic policy during his regime was to have Lithuanian
included in the school curriculum for non-Lithuanian residents of the
republic. Altough the quality of instruction varied, and nobody forced
Russian speakers to use Lithuanian as their preferred public language,
there was certainly an element of payback for the dark period when
Lithuanian was outlawed in the Czar's empire.
> > Is gratitude ever in any way necessary to the extension of tolerance?
>
> The Baltic russkies ought to try and find out some time. Even just
> ceasing their lies about the way they are allegedly treated would be
> 'gratitude' enough.
The "Baltic russkies" are a subset of the Russian speakers in the Baltics.
Some of the people among them who are ethnic Russians have complained in
public as well as to human rights organizations about shabby treatment
because they know that eventually they will be regarded as a normal
minority with the sme claims to legal protection as other minorities in
developed countries. Still, the issue is more complex. Being a Russian in
one of the Baltic countries can, as you have illustrated, mean denial of
service and, possibly a lecturette on history and its sociolinguistic
consequences if, for example, you try to purchase your medication but use
your own language. We know that such things happened in reverse in the
Lithuania of the late 19th century, this being one of the reasons for
massive emigration (cf. Upton Sinclair's novel, *The Jungle*, as much
about the abuses of the American meat packing industry as it is about
Chicago-resident Lithuanians at the turn of the last century), as well as
occasionally in Soviet Lithuania. Now that the shoe is on the other foot,
should certain Lithuanians prove that they are no better than their former
oppressors, real or symbolized by a woman trying to buy her medication in
the language that came most naturally to her, by resorting to similar
tactics?
> > I lack the words
>
> That's nothing new. Just be careful you don't explode from over-
> inflated self-righteousness. Ditto for Holman. Don't know why you
> are buying his crap.
Common decency and a desire to facilitate the purchase of medication by
person obviously in need of them is not crap, it is courtesy and
professionalism.
> If pharmacists in London (or Moskau, for that
> matter) aren't obliged to speak anything but their national language
> to customers, expecting more from Balts is treating them as second
> class citizens.
No it isn't. People in small but civilized countries speaking languages
little studied or spoken outside of their national boundaries tend to be
multilingual. In Finland, Sweden, Denmark, Belgium, or the Netherlands,
you can walk into a pharmacy in any large city that is also popular with
foreign tourists and be served in half a dozen languages. In Denmark,
Belgium, and the Netherlands you are unlikely to find people who would
rebuke a customer for trying to do business in German, despite nasty
occupations by Germany within human memory.
I am not being inflatedly self-righteous. Using Lithuanian in Lithuania is
important, and every non-Lithuanian resident there should be encourager to
do so in as many situations as possible. Nevertheless, Russian has been
and remains the language of the next largest speech community in
Lithuania, including many for whom it, like Lithuanian, is a language
acquired primarily at school and perhaps rusty or limited. Additionally,
the Russian tourist ruble is as hard and desirable a currency as any other
nowadays, and few Lithuanians would expect Russian (or any other) tourists
to know more Lithuanian than 'Laba diena', 'Taip', 'Ne', 'Kur yra
tualetas?', 'As^ nesuprantu lietuvis^kai', and the all important 'Ac^iu'.
It is a part of Lithuanian reality as the language of former colonizers,
as the second-most widely spoken language in the country, and as a
regional lingua franca that will compete with but almost certainly never
be replaced by English during our lifetime.
Viso gero,
Eugene Holman
Maris
<ander...@inbox.lv> wrote:
>
>"Vladimir Makarenko" <vma...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>news:Xr2dnfPtooq-Ru3X...@giganews.com...
>
>> Your lawyers are not really good according to "Fish called Wanda".
>
>Well, I wouldn't say that. Remember what happened to the American crook (he
>fell off the plane), and John Cleese got Jamie Lee Curtis after all (I
>wouldn't like the idea of having Tony Curtis as my father-in-law).
>
No, he got run over by the steam roller driven by John Cleese, while
stuck in the concrete, didn't he?
Maris
Maris
>"Louise" I figured out that these are "Volga" Germans from Kazakhstan
>"repatriating" to Germany. They also had a live goose in a basket. I do
>not BS you. In 90-ties one can see many unbelievable scenes.
>
>VM.
I already saw this scene in November 1988, flying from Moscow to
Frankfurt, after my first trip to Latvia. The plane was full of them.
They obviously spotted an opportunity!
Maris
J. Anderson
"Maris" <lat...@london.com> wrote in message
news:2qu57516vo023qnoh...@4ax.com...
Yes, but after that -- incredible though it sounds -- he somehow got up,
climbed to the wing and, all covered with wet concrete, looked in at John
and Jamie sitting in the cabin. When the plane took off, he slid off the
wing.
Vladimir Makarenko
And let's not forget -became a minister of Justice in South Africa.
VM.