Palestianians Make Clean Kill
MONK EASTMAN
action. That's a military action that didn't target women and children. The
recent massacre of 12 Israeli soldiers was an outstanding operation.
Included in the kill was the local Israeli army commander, a just reward for
the man's incompetence. Of course the incident never should have happened.
The area surrounding Hebron is an armed camp; there should have been
extensive recon patrols, the possibility of such a blood-letting should have
been entirely eliminated. The Israelis should have owned the hills around
Hebrons; they should have long-range recon guys camped there.
Had they had long-range recon guys camped there the ambush would have never
taken place. A long-range recon man is a guy you drop in the contested area
and leave alone. He stays there living off the land, becoming one with the
terrain for weeks after which he's replaced by another long-range recon guy.
Sure, it's rough duty but it's the only way to prevent the kind of ambush
that occurred the other day. Bottom line, Israel screwed up bad by not
having these guys in place.
BARD
Jeremy Merrill
here Monk. I hate to admit that I agree with you on something but I think
it's about time the Palestinians started behaving as though they were truly
at war for their land. What they have been doing up until now was crap.
They deserve their own independant nation and until now haven't been doing
nearly as much to get it as the Israelis have been doing to keep it from
them.
Maybe the table will turn?
-- J
"MONK EASTMAN" <ric...@lycos.com> wrote in message
news:uti01gi...@corp.supernews.com...
David Schwartz
as much as the massacre 30 years ago, when Palestinian terrorists killed the
Israeli athletes at the Munich olympics.
"Jeremy Merrill" <mudf...@san.rr.com> wrote in message
news:R4gC9.11141$2z1.5...@twister.socal.rr.com...
MONK EASTMAN
"Jeremy Merrill" <mudf...@san.rr.com> wrote in message
news:R4gC9.11141$2z1.5...@twister.socal.rr.com...
> here Monk. I hate to admit that I agree with you on something but I think
> it's about time the Palestinians started behaving as though they were
truly
> at war for their land. What they have been doing up until now was crap.
> They deserve their own independant nation and until now haven't been doing
> nearly as much to get it as the Israelis have been doing to keep it from
> them.
> Maybe the table will turn?
>
> -- J
The only thing the Palestinians deserve is more Israeli raids. The
Palestinians lost my vote when they started targeting women and children for
execution. There has to be limits. They went over the line. It's one thing
to kill women and children accidentally; quite another to go hunting for
them.
It's just like those jackasses in Bali who blew up 200 Australians. What in
the world did the Aussies do to engender their rage? And now the entire
country is thrown into economic collapse. The tourist industry was its
life-blood. Bali babies will go without milk because of this "wonderful
victory" by the "courageous terrorists."
No, you may see something good in these murderous maniacs, I assure you, I
don't.
BARD
David Schwartz
East. Maybe if he went over there and witnessed some of the carnage, he
wouldn't be such an advocate for more of it.
"MONK EASTMAN" <ric...@lycos.com> wrote in message
news:utjldh4...@corp.supernews.com...
Jeremy Merrill
race or religion. The thing is that the Israeli government could very
easily achieve peaceful relations with the Palestinians by just giving them
their own independant nation...actually by giving them BACK some of their
land. The Israeli ogvernment would rather sacrifice it's women and children
though, than give one inch back. It's sad, but true. I do not advocate the
murder of civilians, but at the same time it WILL continue to happen over
there regardless of what you or I think, until the Palestinians get their
land back. No logical person could argue otherwise. The Israeli government
knows this, yet they continue to ignore it and their people suffer as a
result.
-- J
"David Schwartz" <david.s...@attbi.com> wrote in message
news:qflC9.48288$%m4.2...@rwcrnsc52.ops.asp.att.net...
David Schwartz
> David...actually I advocate peace and freedom for everyone, regardless of
> race or religion.
I, too, advocate peace and freedom for everyone, regardless of race or
religion.
See how easy it is to say that?
The thing is that the Israeli government could very
> easily achieve peaceful relations with the Palestinians by just giving
them
> their own independant nation...actually by giving them BACK some of their
> land.
What can the Palestinians do to achieve peaceful relations with Israel?
This is not a one-way street.
The Israeli ogvernment would rather sacrifice it's women and children
> though, than give one inch back. It's sad, but true. I do not advocate
the
> murder of civilians,
Please read your original post on this thread. That is exactly what you
did.
Jeremy Merrill
> "Jeremy Merrill" <mudf...@san.rr.com> wrote in message
> news:70BC9.18445$%k2.54...@twister.socal.rr.com...
> > David...actually I advocate peace and freedom for everyone, regardless
of
> > race or religion.
>
> I, too, advocate peace and freedom for everyone, regardless of race or
> religion.
>
> See how easy it is to say that?
>
> The thing is that the Israeli government could very
> > easily achieve peaceful relations with the Palestinians by just giving
> them
> > their own independant nation...actually by giving them BACK some of
their
> > land.
>
> What can the Palestinians do to achieve peaceful relations with Israel?
> This is not a one-way street.
No kidding, which is why the ones with the power (the Israelis) should do
something befitting of civilized people and actually sit down for a REAL
treaty and land concession, rather than the tiny chunks of shit-land they
want to give the Palestinians.
>
> The Israeli ogvernment would rather sacrifice it's women and children
> > though, than give one inch back. It's sad, but true. I do not advocate
> the
> > murder of civilians,
>
> Please read your original post on this thread. That is exactly what you
> did.
No, if you would learn to read you'd note that I advocated the killing of
enemy soldiers. The Israeli govenment wants to declare war on the
Palestinian freedom fighters, so it's only right that they should fight back
and fight hard.
David Schwartz
>
> "David Schwartz" <david.s...@attbi.com> wrote in message
> news:MJDC9.88427$1O2.6467@sccrnsc04...
> > "Jeremy Merrill" <mudf...@san.rr.com> wrote in message
> > news:70BC9.18445$%k2.54...@twister.socal.rr.com...
> > > David...actually I advocate peace and freedom for everyone, regardless
> of
> > > race or religion.
> >
> > I, too, advocate peace and freedom for everyone, regardless of race or
> > religion.
> >
> > See how easy it is to say that?
> >
> > The thing is that the Israeli government could very
> > > easily achieve peaceful relations with the Palestinians by just giving
> > them
> > > their own independant nation...actually by giving them BACK some of
> their
> > > land.
> >
> > What can the Palestinians do to achieve peaceful relations with Israel?
> > This is not a one-way street.
>
> No kidding, which is why the ones with the power (the Israelis) should do
> something befitting of civilized people and actually sit down for a REAL
> treaty and land concession, rather than the tiny chunks of shit-land they
> want to give the Palestinians.
The Palestinians are not a people who are unified in their desire for peace
with Israel. If your whole argument is based on the assumption that Palies
want peace with Israel, then your whole argument is invalid. For example,
the people who did the killing in Hebron, they are Islamic Jihad, who want
to destroy Israel. I see no evidence, as you suggest, that Palies want
peace with Israel if they get some land.
MONK EASTMAN
> David...actually I advocate peace and freedom for everyone, regardless of
> race or religion. The thing is that the Israeli government could very
> easily achieve peaceful relations with the Palestinians by just giving
them
> their own independant nation...actually by giving them BACK some of their
> land. The Israeli ogvernment would rather sacrifice it's women and
children
> though, than give one inch back. It's sad, but true. I do not advocate
the
> murder of civilians, but at the same time it WILL continue to happen over
> there regardless of what you or I think, until the Palestinians get their
> land back. No logical person could argue otherwise. The Israeli
government
> knows this, yet they continue to ignore it and their people suffer as a
> result.
>
> -- J
You could be right, but it's all moot now. By targeting women and children
the Palestinians have forfeited any land claims they might have had. Look at
it this way: If you and I are arguing over where my land begins and your
ends and you decide to get your rifle, hide in the bushes and shoot my wife
and kids they come out, do you think you should be rewarded by getting the
land?
You see, that's the way the thing has to be judged, the mullahs
notwithstanding. The Palestinians operate in a world 500 years behind the
times. They live by religious law, religious law that condones things like
the stoning of "unfaithful wives," the amputation of thieves, and the
killing of women and children for land. There is no way to live in peaceful
coexistence with people like this. And as we see, the overriding tenet of
their religion is that "non-believers" have no right to live, that it is the
duty of believers to murder non-believers.
Handing back the land won't stop the suicide bombing just make it easier.
The only solution is the one Israel is no embarked on now: the extermination
of those Palestinians who seek to exterminate them.
BARD
Kafou Lobo
<snip>:
> Bottom line, Israel screwed up bad by not
> having these guys in place.
Actually, you are missing the whole point. Israel screwed-up
by robbing the Palestinians of their basic dignity.
Kafou "If you want Peace, work for Justice." Lobo
David Schwartz
There are people, like our Jeremy, who say that it is OK to kill Israeli
soldiers. But the only thing that seems to significantly reduce the amount
of violence against Israeli citizens is when the Israeli army occupies the
West Bank, enforcing curfews and restricting travel. But, how long can (or
should) Israel have to babysit the Palies? And, you know, each Palie woman
has about 12 kids, and an exploding (no pun intended) Palestinian population
can only increase violence against Israelies. What is Israel supposed to do
in the long term if the Palies keep trying to destroy the place?
>
> You see, that's the way the thing has to be judged, the mullahs
> notwithstanding. The Palestinians operate in a world 500 years behind the
> times. They live by religious law, religious law that condones things like
> the stoning of "unfaithful wives," the amputation of thieves, and the
> killing of women and children for land. There is no way to live in
peaceful
> coexistence with people like this. And as we see, the overriding tenet of
> their religion is that "non-believers" have no right to live, that it is
the
> duty of believers to murder non-believers.
>
> Handing back the land won't stop the suicide bombing just make it easier.
> The only solution is the one Israel is no embarked on now: the
extermination
> of those Palestinians who seek to exterminate them.
But what's Israel gonna do in the long run?
David Schwartz
"Kafou Lobo" <ka...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:52ab26c9.02112...@posting.google.com...
Is this something you have done, worked for justice? If yes, did it result
in peace?
Jeremy Merrill
stolen land and dignity to the Palestinian people, they wouldn't HAVE to
"babysit" them, and there wouldn't be this level of violence now.
-- J
Simple solutions for simple folks.
"David Schwartz" <david.s...@attbi.com> wrote in message
news:8wYC9.68612$%m4.3...@rwcrnsc52.ops.asp.att.net...
David Schwartz
> If the Israeli government had tried everything in their power to return
the
> stolen land and dignity to the Palestinian people, they wouldn't HAVE to
> "babysit" them, and there wouldn't be this level of violence now.
>
> -- J
>
> Simple solutions for simple folks.
I wish it was simple.
the thirteenth warrior
> should) Israel have to babysit the Palies? And, you know, each Palie
woman
> has about 12 kids, and an exploding (no pun intended) Palestinian
population
> can only increase violence against Israelies.
Racist comments if it is not backed up by real stats (not your thoughts or
opinions )
David Schwartz
"the thirteenth warrior" <bismillahw...@hotmail.com> wrote in
message news:ez7D9.7590$dz2.999363@stones...
Here are some real stats for you...
http://www.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/meast/11/21/mideast/index.html
David Schwartz
"the thirteenth warrior" <bismillahw...@hotmail.com> wrote in
message news:ez7D9.7590$dz2.999363@stones...
>
And, by the way, I don't think it was quite fair for you to call me a
racist. We are talking about people being killed here. And, fyi, it was
Bill Clinton, who I first heard say that the Palestinian population was
exploding (his word). Do you dispute that? You sound like a guy with all
the facts and figures at his fingertips, maybe you could post the figures
for Palestinian population over the last 10 years?
Kafou Lobo
It's one of the universal truths of life, it has withstood the
passage of time and transcended all artificial borders.
Kafou "This was a free philosophical pointer." Lobo
David Schwartz
"Kafou Lobo" <ka...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:52ab26c9.02112...@posting.google.com...
> "David Schwartz" <david.s...@attbi.com> wrote in message
news:<jGYC9.68015$P31.34937@rwcrnsc53>...
> > "Kafou Lobo" <ka...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> > news:52ab26c9.02112...@posting.google.com...
> > > "MONK EASTMAN" <ric...@lycos.com> wrote in message
> > news:<uti01gi...@corp.supernews.com>...
> > > <snip>:
> > > > Bottom line, Israel screwed up bad by not
> > > > having these guys in place.
> > >
> > > Actually, you are missing the whole point. Israel screwed-up
> > > by robbing the Palestinians of their basic dignity.
> > >
> > > Kafou "If you want Peace, work for Justice." Lobo
> >
> > Is this something you have done, worked for justice? If yes, did it
result
> > in peace?
>
> It's one of the universal truths of life, it has withstood the
> passage of time and transcended all artificial borders.
Really? It isn't on my list of universal truths. But then again, my list
of universal truths is very short. I'll give it to you here...
There's an exception to every rule.
This was a free philosophical pointer. I hope you found this enlightening
(and, try not to eat too many fortune cookies).
the thirteenth warrior
Off topic " Israeli tanks on move after bus bombing " ,i expected to get
stats on the natality per palestinian women
the thirteenth warrior
>
> "the thirteenth warrior" <bismillahw...@hotmail.com> wrote in
> message news:ez7D9.7590$dz2.999363@stones...
> >
> > > should) Israel have to babysit the Palies? And, you know, each Palie
> > woman
> > > has about 12 kids, and an exploding (no pun intended) Palestinian
> > population
> > > can only increase violence against Israelies.
> >
> > Racist comments if it is not backed up by real stats (not your thoughts
or
> > opinions )
> >
> >
>
> And, by the way, I don't think it was quite fair for you to call me a
> racist. We are talking about people being killed here.
it is a racist comment to state the following " And, you know, each Palie
woman has about 12 kids " especially when not backed up by hard facts
And, fyi, it was
> Bill Clinton, who I first heard say that the Palestinian population was
> exploding (his word). Do you dispute that?
reference ?
You sound like a guy with all
> the facts and figures at his fingertips, maybe you could post the figures
> for Palestinian population over the last 10 years?
http://www.popcouncil.org/mediacenter/newsreleases/pdr900.html
"Nowhere else in the world are populations at the two extremes of fertility
transition found side by side in such a small territory, with total
fertility rates ranging from barely above the replacement level among Jews
born in Europe and among Christian Arab Israelis (2.13 and 2.10 respectively
in 1992-96), to the highest level recorded in today's world among
Palestinians of the Gaza Strip (7.73 in 1991-95),"
David Schwartz
>
> "David Schwartz" <david.s...@attbi.com> wrote in message
> news:PL8D9.72644$P31.37078@rwcrnsc53...
> >
> > "the thirteenth warrior" <bismillahw...@hotmail.com> wrote in
> > message news:ez7D9.7590$dz2.999363@stones...
> > >
> > > > should) Israel have to babysit the Palies? And, you know, each
Palie
> > > woman
> > > > has about 12 kids, and an exploding (no pun intended) Palestinian
> > > population
> > > > can only increase violence against Israelies.
> > >
> > > Racist comments if it is not backed up by real stats (not your
thoughts
> or
> > > opinions )
> > >
> > >
> >
> > And, by the way, I don't think it was quite fair for you to call me a
> > racist. We are talking about people being killed here.
>
>
> it is a racist comment to state the following " And, you know, each Palie
> woman has about 12 kids " especially when not backed up by hard facts
>
> And, fyi, it was
> > Bill Clinton, who I first heard say that the Palestinian population was
> > exploding (his word). Do you dispute that?
>
> reference ?
Sorry no reference. I guess that makes me a racist.
>
> You sound like a guy with all
> > the facts and figures at his fingertips, maybe you could post the
figures
> > for Palestinian population over the last 10 years?
>
> http://www.popcouncil.org/mediacenter/newsreleases/pdr900.html
> "Nowhere else in the world are populations at the two extremes of
fertility
> transition found side by side in such a small territory, with total
> fertility rates ranging from barely above the replacement level among Jews
> born in Europe and among Christian Arab Israelis (2.13 and 2.10
respectively
> in 1992-96), to the highest level recorded in today's world among
> Palestinians of the Gaza Strip (7.73 in 1991-95),"
>
>
Thanks. So, I was off by a few. I guess that makes me a racist.
Karl
Yep, those are real stats, and yet again, the extremists of Palestine have
carried out an unforgivable atrocity against civilians.
In order to understand *why* this happened, let's not forget that for every
Israeli, 4 Palestinians have been killed, and many more have been tortured.
64 ignored resolutions against Israel are the core of this problem.
David Schwartz
"Karl" <karlpe...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:3dde2ed5$0$1268$afc3...@news.easynet.co.uk...
No, the core of this problem is that Palestinians use murder to achieve
their goals. There is nothing about 64 ignored resolutions that requires
one to murder. In fact, the Palestinians would achieve their goals much
more quickly if there was a Palestinian Martin Luther King, a Palestinian
Mahatma Ghandi, or a Palestinian Nelson Mandela. But if there was such a
person, he would most likely be killed "toot sweet" by his fellow Palies.
Lynching is not uncommon among that lot. How many resolutions did Anwar
Sadat ignore?
the thirteenth warrior
> No, the core of this problem is that Palestinians use murder to achieve
> their goals. There is nothing about 64 ignored resolutions that requires
> one to murder.
Do you realise how the state of Israel was created ?
>In fact, the Palestinians would achieve their goals much
> more quickly
the second wave of intifada started just two years ago
> if there was a Palestinian Martin Luther King, a Palestinian
> Mahatma Ghandi, or a Palestinian Nelson Mandela.
I agree the palestinian leadership is disappointing but the state of Israel
does not help Arafat to establish some sort of authority ,it is where israel
is making an enormous mistake because they are just creating a martyr of
arafat
> But if there was such a
> person, he would most likely be killed "toot sweet" by his fellow Palies.
Or maybe by the mossad
http://www.israelpr.com/internethistory.html
David Schwartz
>
> > No, the core of this problem is that Palestinians use murder to achieve
> > their goals. There is nothing about 64 ignored resolutions that
requires
> > one to murder.
>
> Do you realise how the state of Israel was created ?
Why don't you fully explain what you are getting at.
>
> >In fact, the Palestinians would achieve their goals much
> > more quickly
>
> the second wave of intifada started just two years ago
In which wave were the Israeli athletes killed at the 1972 Olympics?
>
> > if there was a Palestinian Martin Luther King, a Palestinian
> > Mahatma Ghandi, or a Palestinian Nelson Mandela.
>
> I agree the palestinian leadership is disappointing but the state of
Israel
> does not help Arafat to establish some sort of authority ,it is where
israel
> is making an enormous mistake because they are just creating a martyr of
> arafat
What could Israel do to help Arafat? What has Arafat done to give any hope
that he would cooperate with Israel? Making Arafat's job difficult, if not
impossible is (my opinion) that the Paliestinian people are not governable.
The Israeli gov't, mostly, does speak for all Israelis and Israelis (like
people in most democracies) are willing to let their gov't represent them.
Arafat can call for halt to and condemn the killing of Israeli civilians
until he is blue in the face and it won't stop.
the thirteenth warrior
"David Schwartz" <davi...@shaw.ca> wrote in message
news:GPYD9.72859$ka.21...@news1.calgary.shaw.ca...
>
> "the thirteenth warrior" <bismillahw...@hotmail.com> wrote in
> message news:TGHD9.7929$dz2.1077237@stones...
> >
> > > No, the core of this problem is that Palestinians use murder to
achieve
> > > their goals. There is nothing about 64 ignored resolutions that
> requires
> > > one to murder.
> >
> > Do you realise how the state of Israel was created ?
>
> Why don't you fully explain what you are getting at.
King David Hotel in Jerusalem
> > >In fact, the Palestinians would achieve their goals much
> > > more quickly
> >
> > the second wave of intifada started just two years ago
>
> In which wave were the Israeli athletes killed at the 1972 Olympics?
How many palestinians died or had their land expropriated during the same
period ?
> > > if there was a Palestinian Martin Luther King, a Palestinian
> > > Mahatma Ghandi, or a Palestinian Nelson Mandela.
> >
> > I agree the palestinian leadership is disappointing but the state of
> Israel
> > does not help Arafat to establish some sort of authority ,it is where
> israel
> > is making an enormous mistake because they are just creating a martyr of
> > arafat
>
> What could Israel do to help Arafat?
stopping to accuse him of every single actions from independant groups ( I
admit he is an easy scape goat )
>What has Arafat done to give any hope
> that he would cooperate with Israel?
Condemn every single terrorist acts
> Making Arafat's job difficult, if not
> impossible is (my opinion) that the Paliestinian people are not
governable.
And you are denying being a racist ,do you know what is a synonimous of not
being governable ; unruly ,uncivilised ,etc...
> The Israeli gov't, mostly, does speak for all Israelis and Israelis (like
> people in most democracies) are willing to let their gov't represent them.
> Arafat can call for halt to and condemn the killing of Israeli civilians
> until he is blue in the face and it won't stop.
Wonder why ?
David Schwartz
>
> "David Schwartz" <davi...@shaw.ca> wrote in message
> news:GPYD9.72859$ka.21...@news1.calgary.shaw.ca...
> >
> > "the thirteenth warrior" <bismillahw...@hotmail.com> wrote in
> > message news:TGHD9.7929$dz2.1077237@stones...
> > >
> > > > No, the core of this problem is that Palestinians use murder to
> achieve
> > > > their goals. There is nothing about 64 ignored resolutions that
> > requires
> > > > one to murder.
> > >
> > > Do you realise how the state of Israel was created ?
> >
> > Why don't you fully explain what you are getting at.
>
> King David Hotel in Jerusalem
That's a full explanation?
>
> > > >In fact, the Palestinians would achieve their goals much
> > > > more quickly
> > >
> > > the second wave of intifada started just two years ago
> >
> > In which wave were the Israeli athletes killed at the 1972 Olympics?
>
> How many palestinians died or had their land expropriated during the same
> period ?
>
Killing innocent athletes can not be understood in these terms.
> > > > if there was a Palestinian Martin Luther King, a Palestinian
> > > > Mahatma Ghandi, or a Palestinian Nelson Mandela.
> > >
> > > I agree the palestinian leadership is disappointing but the state of
> > Israel
> > > does not help Arafat to establish some sort of authority ,it is where
> > israel
> > > is making an enormous mistake because they are just creating a martyr
of
> > > arafat
> >
> > What could Israel do to help Arafat?
>
> stopping to accuse him of every single actions from independant groups
( I
> admit he is an easy scape goat )
>
If Palies want a nation, they have to understand that the gov't is
responsible for the acts of the nation. Arafat is the leader. He is to
blame. The buck has to stop somewhere.
> >What has Arafat done to give any hope
> > that he would cooperate with Israel?
>
> Condemn every single terrorist acts
>
I read the papers and condemning terrorist acts is only something he started
doing recently. And, the only reason does it is because he has to. In my
opinion, it is perfunctory.
> > Making Arafat's job difficult, if not
> > impossible is (my opinion) that the Paliestinian people are not
> governable.
>
> And you are denying being a racist ,do you know what is a synonimous of
not
> being governable ; unruly ,uncivilised ,etc...
Um, well, that would be a good definition of the Palies. Look, I should
have qualified my statement a little better. Take 2...The Paliesatinian
people are not governable unless they are being governed by someone who
openly advocates the destruction of Israel. Happy now?
Racist schmacist. Show me an Arab democracy.
>
> > The Israeli gov't, mostly, does speak for all Israelis and Israelis
(like
> > people in most democracies) are willing to let their gov't represent
them.
> > Arafat can call for halt to and condemn the killing of Israeli civilians
> > until he is blue in the face and it won't stop.
>
> Wonder why ?
No, I do not wonder why. It is because Paliestinians want to destroy
Israel. If Arafat came out and said that he was also for the destruction of
Israel, it would cause the Palies to lose some international support. But,
the Palies have a great situation, they can in effect continue to kill
Israelis, but as long as Arafat condemns the killing, no one asks Palies for
anything more.
David Schwartz
> news:y98D9.73741$__1....@rwcrnsc51.ops.asp.att.net...
> >
> > "the thirteenth warrior" <bismillahw...@hotmail.com> wrote in
> > message news:ez7D9.7590$dz2.999363@stones...
> > >
> > > > should) Israel have to babysit the Palies? And, you know, each
Palie
> > > woman
> > > > has about 12 kids, and an exploding (no pun intended) Palestinian
> > > population
> > > > can only increase violence against Israelies.
> > >
> > > Racist comments if it is not backed up by real stats (not your
thoughts
> or
> > > opinions )
> > >
> > >
> >
> > Here are some real stats for you...
> >
> >
> > http://www.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/meast/11/21/mideast/index.html
>
> Yep, those are real stats, and yet again, the extremists of Palestine have
> carried out an unforgivable atrocity against civilians.
You know Karl, I would like you to explain your "extremists of Palestine"
remark. I am under the impression that Palies who kill Israelis are not
extremists in the Palestinian polkitical spectrum, but, rather that they are
in the mainstream. We know that it is a common activity that Palie men and
women do. I have read newspaper articles reporting that The Palie terror
organizations (Islamic Jihad, Hamas, Hezbollah) all have more volunteers for
suicide bombers than they can accommodate, that young Palies want to
"explode themselves", that when someone carries out one of these acts, that
posters (marytr posters) are printed up and everyone wants a poster of the
latest suicide bomber, that there seems to be no effort on the part of
Palies to restrain these groups.
Karl, even though in your country, you may consider suicide bombing an
extremist act, can you show why it is anything but mainstream politics among
Palestinians?
Karl
>
>
> You know Karl, I would like you to explain your "extremists of Palestine"
> remark. I am under the impression that Palies who kill Israelis are not
> extremists in the Palestinian polkitical spectrum, but, rather that they
are
> in the mainstream.
This is where we disagree. I'm under the impression that most Palestinians
despair at the terrorist groups (Hamas, Islamic Jihad, etc.) and to a large
extent at the official Palestinian leadership. In the absence of any help
from outside, and militarily overwhelmed by Israel, many (but not most)
young Palestinians turn to the terrorists.
Most Palestinians are ambivalent - not in support of the terrorists, but
also in such despair and hatred of the Israeli army that they don't mourn
any Israeli deaths.
Don't forget that after every suicide attack, dozens of Palestinians are
rounded up by the military - most of these are taken for communal
punishment, not because they had anything to do with the original attack.
Most later return, many having endured torture (source: Amnesty
International). These are then prime recruitment targets for the terrorists.
> We know that it is a common activity that Palie men and
> women do.
Yes, but it's a minority activity.
> I have read newspaper articles reporting that The Palie terror
> organizations (Islamic Jihad, Hamas, Hezbollah) all have more volunteers
for
> suicide bombers than they can accommodate, that young Palies want to
> "explode themselves", that when someone carries out one of these acts,
that
> posters (marytr posters) are printed up and everyone wants a poster of the
> latest suicide bomber, that there seems to be no effort on the part of
> Palies to restrain these groups.
>
> Karl, even though in your country, you may consider suicide bombing an
> extremist act, can you show why it is anything but mainstream politics
among
> Palestinians?
Yes. Don't forget the PLO is a non-religious organisation and is very wary
about the Islamic extremists, who are its political opponents.
Traditionally, Palestinian politics is non-religious. The rise in the
Islamic fringes is a recent activity and worries the bulk of the Palestinian
population as well as the mainstream, non-Islamic, leadership. However, they
are far more concerned about the occupation of their land than they are
about the rise of Islamic extremism.
Arafat's program has always been based around left-wing politics, not
religion. The Islamic fundamentalists are on the *right* politically. Islam
and socialism have never got on well together, and hence neither have Hamas
and the PLO.
David Schwartz
> "David Schwartz" <davi...@shaw.ca> wrote in message
> news:AsgE9.39303$ea.6...@news2.calgary.shaw.ca...
> >
> >
> > You know Karl, I would like you to explain your "extremists of
Palestine"
> > remark. I am under the impression that Palies who kill Israelis are not
> > extremists in the Palestinian polkitical spectrum, but, rather that they
> are
> > in the mainstream.
>
> This is where we disagree. I'm under the impression that most Palestinians
> despair at the terrorist groups (Hamas, Islamic Jihad, etc.) and to a
large
> extent at the official Palestinian leadership. In the absence of any help
> from outside, and militarily overwhelmed by Israel, many (but not most)
> young Palestinians turn to the terrorists.
>
> Most Palestinians are ambivalent - not in support of the terrorists, but
> also in such despair and hatred of the Israeli army that they don't mourn
> any Israeli deaths.
Karl, all I am saying is that the only evidence I see is that Palestinians
are in support of the destruction of Israel. I have given that evidence,
reports of newspaper articles that I have read. Have you heard or read of
anything that you can point to that wouold concretely show that
Paliestinians do not support the destruction of Israel? Anything at all?
Can you show me young Palestinians who are not terrorists and who do not
support terrorists? How do you know that "Most Palestinians are
ambivalent"? Do you even have any evidence to support your claim that that
suicide bombers were formaer torture victims?
>
> Don't forget that after every suicide attack, dozens of Palestinians are
> rounded up by the military - most of these are taken for communal
> punishment, not because they had anything to do with the original attack.
> Most later return, many having endured torture (source: Amnesty
> International). These are then prime recruitment targets for the
terrorists.
>
> > We know that it is a common activity that Palie men and
> > women do.
>
> Yes, but it's a minority activity.
Really? In addition to the bomber, how many people are involved in the act?
How many people are required to deliver the materials that are used to make
the bombs? How many people build the bombs, protect the bomb making
facilities, recruit the bombers, family members who support the bombers'
decision to kill, drive the bomber to where the attack will take place,
print the marytr posters, dance in the streets and hand out candy in the
mosques when they get news of the attack? I'm not sure it is a minority
activity.
>
> > I have read newspaper articles reporting that The Palie terror
> > organizations (Islamic Jihad, Hamas, Hezbollah) all have more volunteers
> for
> > suicide bombers than they can accommodate, that young Palies want to
> > "explode themselves", that when someone carries out one of these acts,
> that
> > posters (marytr posters) are printed up and everyone wants a poster of
the
> > latest suicide bomber, that there seems to be no effort on the part of
> > Palies to restrain these groups.
> >
> > Karl, even though in your country, you may consider suicide bombing an
> > extremist act, can you show why it is anything but mainstream politics
> among
> > Palestinians?
>
> Yes. Don't forget the PLO is a non-religious organisation and is very wary
> about the Islamic extremists, who are its political opponents.
> Traditionally, Palestinian politics is non-religious. The rise in the
> Islamic fringes is a recent activity and worries the bulk of the
Palestinian
> population as well as the mainstream, non-Islamic, leadership.
Can you offer any evidence that this fact exists anywhere else but inside
your mind? For example, in Lebanon, one of the extremist groups (is it
Hezbollah??) is extremely popular, in addition to their terrorist arm, they
also provide social services. Please provide a shred of evidence that
therse groups worry the Palies.
Karl
>
> Karl, all I am saying is that the only evidence I see is that Palestinians
> are in support of the destruction of Israel.
You're talking about an entire population as if they have one mind.
Palestinians agree on the issues as much as all Americans agree on any
issues.
But to your questions... Palestinians, as a population, have probably the
worst living conditions of anyone on this planet right now, and Israel is
the prime cause of their problems. Therefore if you ask "would you like to
see Israel vanish tomorrow?" then undoubtedly 99% would say yes. Most
Palestinian people have had a friend or relative killed, wounded, imprisoned
and/or tortured by Israel.
However, what most people seek is the same as anywhere else: a working
economy, decent housing, jobs and respect for human rights - none of which
is in evidence at the moment.
> I have given that evidence,
> reports of newspaper articles that I have read. Have you heard or read of
> anything that you can point to that wouold concretely show that
> Paliestinians do not support the destruction of Israel? Anything at all?
Many will support it *now* as a solution to their problems. But given the
state of the population, *any* alternative to the current misery would be
supported.
> Can you show me young Palestinians who are not terrorists and who do not
> support terrorists?
Not without taking you to London or some other place with a high Palestinian
population. I visited the West Bank a few years ago and found most people
just longed for a normal life. Most will support the terrorists in the
current situation, as discussed above. However terrorism turned down when
the Oslo peace accord was on the table. The real lunatics are a small group
but given the situation now, they get widespread support because people
genuinely see no alternative.
> How do you know that "Most Palestinians are
> ambivalent"? Do you even have any evidence to support your claim that
that
> suicide bombers were formaer torture victims?
That's not exactly my claim. However there is very strong evidence that
torture by the Israeli army is widespread. Being tortured isn't a pleasant
experience. Therefore....
> > Don't forget that after every suicide attack, dozens of Palestinians are
> > rounded up by the military - most of these are taken for communal
> > punishment, not because they had anything to do with the original
attack.
> > Most later return, many having endured torture (source: Amnesty
> > International). These are then prime recruitment targets for the
> terrorists.
> >
> > > We know that it is a common activity that Palie men and
> > > women do.
> >
> > Yes, but it's a minority activity.
>
> Really? In addition to the bomber, how many people are involved in the
act?
Probably only a handful. Secrecy is a key to success with terrorism.
But you have an incredibly xenophobic view of a whole population.
Palestinians are waiters, pianists, students, academics, farmers, computer
programmers, entrepreneurs, hoteliers, and so on. They are *not* a very
religious population - nothing like Afghans or Saudis. The terrorists are a
last resort. Terrorism never wins, but they have nowhere else to turn.
> >
> > Yes. Don't forget the PLO is a non-religious organisation and is very
wary
> > about the Islamic extremists, who are its political opponents.
> > Traditionally, Palestinian politics is non-religious. The rise in the
> > Islamic fringes is a recent activity and worries the bulk of the
> Palestinian
> > population as well as the mainstream, non-Islamic, leadership.
>
> Can you offer any evidence that this fact exists anywhere else but inside
> your mind? For example, in Lebanon, one of the extremist groups (is it
> Hezbollah??) is extremely popular, in addition to their terrorist arm,
they
> also provide social services. Please provide a shred of evidence that
> therse groups worry the Palies.
You're talking as if the Palestinians share a single mind! Hamas and the PLO
have been enemies in the past. They are very different politically.
The terrorist extremists want to see the destruction of Israel at any cost.
The Palestinian population want their land and rights back. Sharon's mistake
is that he has made these two objectives become one.
And don't forget there are two sides to the coin. Whereas (in the past) most
Israelis desired to live peacefully with the Palestinians, this situation
was created by a hardcore of the far-right who believe the Palestinians
should be wiped off the planet.
And finally - did you know that the Zionists were a terrorist oragnisation?
Before the state of Israel was founded, Jewish terrorists blew up Arabs at
bus stops. That's where this whole cycle began.
David Schwartz
> "David Schwartz" <davi...@shaw.ca> wrote in message
> news:7XsE9.104649$ka.24...@news1.calgary.shaw.ca...
> >
> > Karl, all I am saying is that the only evidence I see is that
Palestinians
> > are in support of the destruction of Israel.
>
> You're talking about an entire population as if they have one mind.
> Palestinians agree on the issues as much as all Americans agree on any
> issues.
>
> But to your questions... Palestinians, as a population, have probably the
> worst living conditions of anyone on this planet right now,
And where did you get that from? For this claim, will you post even a shred
of evidence?????????
How is it that people in the worst living conditions are multiplying? 7+
children per woman. How does that improve Palie living conditions????? Or,
is Israel making the Palies fuck so much?
You make up a lot of stuff, don't you?
the thirteenth warrior
> And where did you get that from? For this claim, will you post even a
shred
> of evidence?????????
>
> How is it that people in the worst living conditions are multiplying? 7+
> children per woman. How does that improve Palie living conditions?????
Or,
> is Israel making the Palies fuck so much?
Natality rate are higher in third world countries compared to developped
country .The notion of having a child based on your income is a western idea
Uncatom
>
> "Karl" <karlpe...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:3de26900$0$28043$afc3...@news.easynet.co.uk...
> > "David Schwartz" <davi...@shaw.ca> wrote in message
> > news:7XsE9.104649$ka.24...@news1.calgary.shaw.ca...
> > >
> > > Karl, all I am saying is that the only evidence I see is that
> Palestinians
> > > are in support of the destruction of Israel.
> >
> > You're talking about an entire population as if they have one mind.
> > Palestinians agree on the issues as much as all Americans agree on any
> > issues.
> >
> > But to your questions... Palestinians, as a population, have probably
the
> > worst living conditions of anyone on this planet right now,
>
> And where did you get that from? For this claim, will you post even a
shred
> of evidence?????????
>
> How is it that people in the worst living conditions are multiplying? 7+
> children per woman. How does that improve Palie living conditions?????
Or,
> is Israel making the Palies fuck so much?
>
> You make up a lot of stuff, don't you?
Strange bird, this *Karl Peterson.* Hates white racists, praises DAFNz but
vilifies conservative blacks such as BARD, and at the same time denigrates
Israel in favor of ragheads.
Add them all up and I think our Brit twit is about as Scandanavian as Idi
Amin, probably some euro-born *wog* named *Hussain Assadollakh* or something
like that, who can't stand the fact that his skin is what Andrew Dice Clay
called *urine-colored.*
David Schwartz
news:uu55im3...@corp.supernews.com...
> Strange bird, this *Karl Peterson.* Hates white racists, praises DAFNz
but
> vilifies conservative blacks such as BARD, and at the same time denigrates
> Israel in favor of ragheads.
>
> Add them all up and I think our Brit twit is about as Scandanavian as Idi
> Amin, probably some euro-born *wog* named *Hussain Assadollakh* or
something
> like that, who can't stand the fact that his skin is what Andrew Dice Clay
> called *urine-colored.*
Yes, Karl is a piece of work. He comes off as really caring and sensitive,
but he says the most outrageous things, and expects those statements to be
taken as the "dinkum oil", as if everyone should believe it just because he
said it.
I also agree with you, that Karl is carrying some heavy baggage around with
him, although I don't know the exact nature of it (and never really cared
enough to ask).
Hey Karl, wanna come clean? Confession good for the soul :-).
David Schwartz
You are my go-to guy on population stats, is there any relationship between
Palestinian birth rate and the intfada?
Karl
but
> vilifies conservative blacks such as BARD, and at the same time denigrates
> Israel in favor of ragheads.
Um. OK, I'll bite.
I'm not sure what is so unusual about my belief set, but:
- Most Jews hate white racists (because they hate us).
- Jews and blacks have often fought together on race issues (e.g. the US
civil rights movement and the UK anti-fascist movement), so my anti-racism
stance is pretty typical.
- I don't know about BARD's politics (he's more interested in his dick) but
he seems to write a load of crap.
- In common with many Jews, I still reserve the right to criticise Israel. I
believe in the Jewish state (I have relatives there) but I can't defend what
Sharon and the Israeli right are doing, which amounts to creeping genocide.
> Add them all up and I think our Brit twit is about as Scandanavian as Idi
> Amin, probably some euro-born *wog* named *Hussain Assadollakh* or
something
> like that, who can't stand the fact that his skin is what Andrew Dice Clay
> called *urine-colored.*
I never claimed to be Scandinavian you ignorant cunt. I'm Jewish, born in
Britain. Assuming you also are Jewish, your racist, anti-Arab stance brings
shame on a people who have suffered racial prejudice more than most others
on this planet.
David Schwartz
> "Uncatom" <sla...@ssa.net> wrote in message
> news:uu55im3...@corp.supernews.com...
> > Strange bird, this *Karl Peterson.* Hates white racists, praises DAFNz
> but
> > vilifies conservative blacks such as BARD, and at the same time
denigrates
> > Israel in favor of ragheads.
>
> Um. OK, I'll bite.
>
> I'm not sure what is so unusual about my belief set, but:
Your "belief set" makes you stand out like a sore thumb. A typical post by
you starts something like, "I'm a Jew...", or "I'm a white..." and you then
proceed to show that you have little/no identification with either of those
groups.
You also do a great job of pissing people off with your very effective
insinuations (hey, you're good at it). For example, below, you use the
phrase 'creeping genocide" in reference to Israel. Now, genocide is when
you kill a lot of people, very bad. Has Israel committed genocide. No, no
one is saying that. You also use the word creeping. Very negative
connotation, a creeping thing is something that is done in secrecy. So, you
are saying that Israel is secretly killing all the Palestinians? What the
hell are you talking about?
You say you have relatives in Israel. If that is true, you could wake up
tomorrow morning to the news that a suicide bomber killed your family.
Based on your previous posts, you would fully understand why they died and
would feel no animosity towards their killers. Nice.
I am white and I am Jewish and based on everything I have read from you, I
have nothing in common with you. Now, that in and of itself is not so
special, but, look at what you say. You imply that Jews are of one mind (we
all hate white racists, we all fight alongside blacks on race issues).
I don't think you should speak for Jews, because, well, I don't think you
speak for Jews. You may not even want to speak for white people either.
You certainly have spoken for all Palestinians. Why do you feel the need to
speak for so many people? Why not just speak for yourself?
the thirteenth warrior
> > Natality rate are higher in third world countries compared to developped
> > country .The notion of having a child based on your income is a western
> idea
>
> You are my go-to guy on population stats, is there any relationship
between
> Palestinian birth rate and the intfada?
It just takes a bit of effort and intellectual honesty to find the publicly
available stats try this http://deja.com
There is certainly a link between the conflict and demography :On one side
the palestinian population have a high birth rate (not as exagerated as you
previously mentioned ) and on the other side the policy applied by Israel in
terms of non-restrictive influx of azkhenaze immigrants .
the thirteenth warrior
by
> you starts something like, "I'm a Jew...", or "I'm a white..." and you
then
> proceed to show that you have little/no identification with either of
those
> groups.
Now I am really interested to know what would be the identification signs
for each groups ?
> You also do a great job of pissing people off with your very effective
> insinuations (hey, you're good at it). For example, below, you use the
> phrase 'creeping genocide" in reference to Israel. Now, genocide is when
> you kill a lot of people, very bad. Has Israel committed genocide. No,
no
> one is saying that. You also use the word creeping. Very negative
> connotation, a creeping thing is something that is done in secrecy. So,
you
> are saying that Israel is secretly killing all the Palestinians? What the
> hell are you talking about?
Just to revive memory on Sabra and Chatila
http://www.monde-diplomatique.fr/index/pays/israel
I would not even mention the war crime commited in Jenin (from independant
sources ) I admit it was not secretely done fortunately the international
was present .
> You say you have relatives in Israel. If that is true, you could wake up
> tomorrow morning to the news that a suicide bomber killed your family.
> Based on your previous posts, you would fully understand why they died and
> would feel no animosity towards their killers. Nice.
How would it help the resolution of this conflit to feel a lot of animosity
towards the killers ?
Most civil conflicts ( South africa ,Northern ireland ,etc..) which found a
resolution came with a pardon for killers ,terrorists ,etc...
On one hand you state palestinians need a nelson mandela figure and on the
other you can not and will not admit the same is valid for Israel .
> I am white and I am Jewish and based on everything I have read from you, I
> have nothing in common with you. Now, that in and of itself is not so
> special, but, look at what you say. You imply that Jews are of one mind
(we
> all hate white racists, we all fight alongside blacks on race issues).
- I would say the majority hate racists based on the jewish experience .I
never met a jewish person fighting for the ressurection of the Reich .
- Historical blacks and jews fought the same battle during the civil right
movements
> I don't think you should speak for Jews, because, well, I don't think you
> speak for Jews. You may not even want to speak for white people either.
> You certainly have spoken for all Palestinians. Why do you feel the need
to
> speak for so many people? Why not just speak for yourself?
Mentioning about his ethnical background does not mean he is speaking for
anyone .His ethnical background is just a piece of information provided for
you to be able to understand partly his culture .
Reading his posts I do not feel he portrayed himself as a porte parole of :
palestinian ,black ,white or jew .
David Schwartz
the first 12 warriors??), the post you responded to was for karl only and
not meant for you to horn in on. Sorry, but you really should have known, I
was talking just to Karl.
Rather than horning in on a flame war between me and Karl, please post
population stats for the Palestinians during the past 20 years.
"the thirteenth warrior" <bismillahw...@hotmail.com> wrote in
message news:QwUE9.8314$XN5.1088140@wards...
the thirteenth warrior
> Uh, listen 13th warrior, if that is your real name (and, what happened to
> the first 12 warriors??), the post you responded to was for karl only and
> not meant for you to horn in on. Sorry, but you really should have known,
I
> was talking just to Karl.
>
> Rather than horning in on a flame war between me and Karl, please post
> population stats for the Palestinians during the past 20 years.
1. War is between nations by definition
2. Exchange in a newsgroup are not private ,you could use email ,telephone
,mail ,telegraph ,etc..for private conversation
Karl
> Your "belief set" makes you stand out like a sore thumb. A typical post
by
> you starts something like, "I'm a Jew...", or "I'm a white..." and you
then
> proceed to show that you have little/no identification with either of
those
> groups.
You seem to imply that a Jew cannot criticise Israel and a white person
cannot support black causes. That's just bullshit.
Wrt the Israel/Palestine situation, the points I'm making are well
documented in the mainstream media. I suggest you read beyond the US press,
which is renowned globally for a very pro-Israel bias. The BBC is probably
the closest thing we have to an impartial news service, so I suggest you
check out some recent coverage of the region:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/default.stm
Karl
> I would not even mention the war crime commited in Jenin (from independant
> sources ) I admit it was not secretely done fortunately the international
> was present .
You're right that what happened in Jenin was widely witnessed and documented
by international observers. However, the US press failed to report on the
investigation outcomes, so most Americans didn't get an accurate view of
what actually happened.
David Schwartz
Yes, we poor Americans, starved for accuate information. That goodness for
you, Herr Karl, for getting out the truth. But, what truth? What are you
giving me, other than anti-Israel propaganda? I now suspect you are an
anti-Semite.
David Schwartz
> "David Schwartz" <davi...@shaw.ca> wrote in message
> news:FsPE9.904056$v53.33...@news3.calgary.shaw.ca...
> > Your "belief set" makes you stand out like a sore thumb. A typical post
> by
> > you starts something like, "I'm a Jew...", or "I'm a white..." and you
> then
> > proceed to show that you have little/no identification with either of
> those
> > groups.
>
> You seem to imply that a Jew cannot criticise Israel and a white person
> cannot support black causes. That's just bullshit.
I have no problem with you having compassion for Palies, but, you show no
such compassion for Israel. Because you have no compassion for Israel, and
because you only put Israel down and because you absolutely refuse to hold
palies responsible in any way, manner, shape, or form for their own
condition, even in the face of the fact that they are drastically increasing
their population, insisting that Palies are only innocent victims who have
no ability to control their own destiny, and because you make false claims
against Israel (they are committing genocdie), you, Herr Karl, are an
anti-Semite.
>
> Wrt the Israel/Palestine situation, the points I'm making are well
> documented in the mainstream media. I suggest you read beyond the US
press,
> which is renowned globally for a very pro-Israel bias. The BBC is probably
> the closest thing we have to an impartial news service, so I suggest you
> check out some recent coverage of the region:
>
> http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/default.stm
Thanks, but I don't need to go any further than your posts for the palie
point of view.
Karl
> Yes, we poor Americans, starved for accuate information. That goodness
for
> you, Herr Karl, for getting out the truth. But, what truth? What are you
> giving me, other than anti-Israel propaganda? I now suspect you are an
> anti-Semite.
Ha ha..
So I'm a Jewish anti-semite.
And how about Jonathan Sacks, the UK Chief Rabbi who criticised Israel's
behaviour? Is he anti-Semitic? Reference:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/2218571.stm
How about Kofi Annan, who criticised the killing this week of a British aid
worker by Israeli soldiers? Another anti-semite?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/2510015.stm
The Israeli Jews who refuse to serve in the army within the West Bank -
anti-semitic Israeli Jews?
How about this recent BBC article covering the trauma suffered by
Palestinian children - anti-semitic?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/2485735.stm
Is Ari Fleischer (along with dozens of world government spokesmen) an
anti-Semite for criticising the destruction of Arafat's compound?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/2274280.stm
Here's one about a divide between Palestinian groups - whereas you seem to
think they're all terrorists:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/2480243.stm
And if you're getting into the reading mood, here's a collection of
high-quality news and analysis:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/in_depth/middle_east/2001/israel_and_the_palestin
ians/
Go on - read the references. I dare you. Then declare the BBC anti-semitic
too.
Karl
> I have no problem with you having compassion for Palies, but, you show no
> such compassion for Israel.
I have compassion for *Israelis*, who include a number of my relatives. I've
never expressed the slightest support for Palestinian terrorist groups. I
totally oppose them, what they stand for, and everything they do.
The Palestinian extremists kill large numbers of Israeli civilians and
soldiers. That's wrong.
The Israeli army kills even larger numbers of Palestinian civilians and
fighters. That's wrong.
Israel is deliberately settling European immigrants on Palestinian land -
this tactic is designed to destroy the entire Palestinian people. That's
more than wrong - it is a crime against humanity.
> > http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/default.stm
>
> Thanks, but I don't need to go any further than your posts for the palie
> point of view.
So even the BBC, renowned globally for impartial, high-quality reporting, is
anti-semitic because you don't like what they write. You give a bad name to
Jews.
the thirteenth warrior
> Yes, we poor Americans, starved for accuate information. That goodness
for
> you, Herr Karl, for getting out the truth. But, what truth? What are you
> giving me, other than anti-Israel propaganda?
There is a difference between being critical to the action of a governement
(which happen to be the israeli governement ) and being anti-israel.
> I now suspect you are an
> anti-Semite.
Arabs belong to the semite branch .
the thirteenth warrior
> such compassion for Israel. Because you have no compassion for Israel,
and
> because you only put Israel down and because you absolutely refuse to hold
> palies responsible in any way, manner, shape, or form for their own
> condition, even in the face of the fact that they are drastically
increasing
> their population, insisting that Palies are only innocent victims who have
> no ability to control their own destiny, and because you make false claims
> against Israel (they are committing genocdie
I personally hold this position not because I am anti-israel but because I
think Israel have more power to change the destiny of the entire region ( I
would use for example the way the issue of liban has been solved with the
actions of the region super-powers ) .
I feel simpathy for israeli civilans because as much as palestinians they
are victims of the policy of the worst prime minister israel ever produced .
David Schwartz
> "David Schwartz" <davi...@shaw.ca> wrote in message
> news:e%7F9.61911$ea.10...@news2.calgary.shaw.ca...
> > Yes, we poor Americans, starved for accuate information. That goodness
> for
> > you, Herr Karl, for getting out the truth. But, what truth? What are
you
> > giving me, other than anti-Israel propaganda? I now suspect you are an
> > anti-Semite.
>
> Ha ha..
>
> So I'm a Jewish anti-semite.
Ha ha. Yeah.
>
> And how about Jonathan Sacks, the UK Chief Rabbi who criticised Israel's
> behaviour? Is he anti-Semitic? Reference:
> http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/2218571.stm
nope
>
> How about Kofi Annan, who criticised the killing this week of a British
aid
> worker by Israeli soldiers? Another anti-semite?
> http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/2510015.stm
nope
>
> The Israeli Jews who refuse to serve in the army within the West Bank -
> anti-semitic Israeli Jews?
nope
>
> How about this recent BBC article covering the trauma suffered by
> Palestinian children - anti-semitic?
> http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/2485735.stm
nope
>
> Is Ari Fleischer (along with dozens of world government spokesmen) an
> anti-Semite for criticising the destruction of Arafat's compound?
> http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/2274280.stm
nope
>
> Here's one about a divide between Palestinian groups - whereas you seem to
> think they're all terrorists:
> http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/2480243.stm
I never said they were all terrorists, show me where you think I said that.
>
> And if you're getting into the reading mood, here's a collection of
> high-quality news and analysis:
>
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/in_depth/middle_east/2001/israel_and_the_palestin
> ians/
>
broken link
> Go on - read the references. I dare you. Then declare the BBC anti-semitic
> too.
I did read the articles (mostly) and I will not declare the BBC
anti-semitic. I will, however, declare you, Herr Karl, to be anti-Semitic.
For example, no where in the articles you give did I find referene to
Israeli genocide of Palies. But you said that. No where did I read about
Israel acting like nazis. But you said that in the thread "Where are all
the defenders of Israel now?"
David Schwartz
> "David Schwartz" <davi...@shaw.ca> wrote in message
> news:C78F9.61918$ea.10...@news2.calgary.shaw.ca...
> > I have no problem with you having compassion for Palies, but, you show
no
> > such compassion for Israel.
>
> I have compassion for *Israelis*, who include a number of my relatives.
I've
> never expressed the slightest support for Palestinian terrorist groups. I
> totally oppose them, what they stand for, and everything they do.
Earlier in this thread, you said (in reference to the Palestinian killing of
Israeli children), and I quote...
"In order to understand *why* this happened, let's not forget that for every
Israeli, 4 Palestinians have been killed, and many more have been tortured.
64 ignored resolutions against Israel are the core of this problem."
Hmmm you understand why Palie terrorist kill Israeli children, and you
sympathize with them.
You also say (later in this post) that it is wrong for Israelis to hunt down
and kill the terrorists.
OK, so you understand them, you sympathisze with the, and you protect them.
That is fine for an anti-Semite, but how to you square this with your claim
that you've "never expressed the slightest support for Palestinian terrorist
groups"?????????????????
>
> The Palestinian extremists kill large numbers of Israeli civilians and
> soldiers. That's wrong.
The only thing wrong about your statement is the word "extremist", leave out
that word and make the word Palestinian plural and you have it right.
> The Israeli army kills even larger numbers of Palestinian civilians and
> fighters. That's wrong.
Why is that wrong? Palies kill and support the killing of Israelis. Israel
has to strike back. Otherwise, Palies will have no reason to stop killing.
You see Herr Karl, that's how it works. Israel cannot allow terrorists to
go unpunished and it cannot reward terror by giving into their demands. As
long as Palies try to achieve their goals through murder and terror, they
will never achieve those goals.
> Israel is deliberately settling European immigrants on Palestinian land -
> this tactic is designed to destroy the entire Palestinian people. That's
> more than wrong - it is a crime against humanity.
>
Inside Israel live many Arabs, who are citizens of Israel. If or when the
Palies ever get their own country, it looks like there are going to be some
Jews living there, eh? Is that OK with you? Or, do you insist that any
Palie country be Jew free? Since you are an anti-Semite, it is OK for you
to say YES.
But you know, even if we snapped our fingers right now and made all the
Palies in the west bank and gaza go away, there would still be Palies, they
would be the Arabs who stayed in Israel and never fled. They are
Palestinians, too, you know. Only those Palies do not blow themselves up,
and do not have exploding birth rates.
> > > http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/default.stm
> >
> > Thanks, but I don't need to go any further than your posts for the palie
> > point of view.
>
> So even the BBC, renowned globally for impartial, high-quality reporting,
is
> anti-semitic because you don't like what they write. You give a bad name
to
> Jews.
At least, I am not their enemy. Since you are an anti-Semite, it would be
best if you did not speak for Jews.
Jeremy Merrill
Fuck!
That is the problem with the majority of Middle Eastern relations, in that
their feuds go back so far they can't even remember who started it anymore.
People there bitch and moan about the killing and oppression, yet the ones
with the power to stop it do ABSOLUTELY NOTHING about it except continue the
violence! I'm so fucking sick of the Israeli government retaliating against
little kids who throw rocks by using machine guns! Grow the fuck up people!
And you David, you sit here and talk about how Palestinians want Jews
dead...SHIT...I wonder why?!? When they live like second class citizens in
their own lands...what's there to hate?!? Get off your high horse and
realize that there is a very simple solution to the entire mess.
This solution would most likely get the Palestinians off the back of the
Israelis, placate Bin Laden for a while (until he dies of his liver disease
or whatever it is), and get Saddam to shut the fuck up.
The solution is to give the Palestinians back enough of their land that they
can have a self-sustaining nation, under their own laws, without Israeli
oppression. Sure, the Israeli government would have to give back land. Of
course some of the settlers would be upset, but so fucking what? Government
is in place to rule in the best interest of the people, and if stopping the
slaughter of innocent people means giving back a few hundred miles of
desert, then so-be-it!
Both nations could coexist side by side if the Israelis would just sit down
at the table for some REALISTIC peace talks instead of stonewalling the
Palestinians at every chance.
Damn it felt great to get that all off my chest. I just get sick of hearing
the same fucking arguement again and again as to why the Israelis are
morally right to do what they are doing. It's bullshit, and the individuals
who knowingly oppress the Palestinian people will hopefully enjoy a long
stay in hell when they die.
-- J (and NO, I'm NOT anti-semitic DAMMIT!)
See! I already know exactly what you're going to accuse me of!
"David Schwartz" <davi...@shaw.ca> wrote in message
news:2LeF9.119708$ka.28...@news1.calgary.shaw.ca...
David Schwartz
"Jeremy Merrill" <mudf...@san.rr.com> wrote in message
news:pEfF9.44677$%k2.15...@twister.socal.rr.com...
> Oh god will you give up with the whole "you hit me so I hit you"
attitude?!?
no
> Fuck!
indeed
>
> That is the problem with the majority of Middle Eastern relations, in that
> their feuds go back so far they can't even remember who started it
anymore.
> People there bitch and moan about the killing and oppression, yet the ones
> with the power to stop it do ABSOLUTELY NOTHING about it except continue
the
> violence! I'm so fucking sick of the Israeli government retaliating
against
> little kids who throw rocks by using machine guns! Grow the fuck up
people!
Yes, everyone else is so stupid, so childish. How do you manage to keep
your sanity? It must be so difficult for you, to be amonst us lesser
beings. It is a privilege to read your posts.
>
> And you David, you sit here and talk about how Palestinians want Jews
> dead...SHIT...I wonder why?!? When they live like second class citizens
in
> their own lands...what's there to hate?!? Get off your high horse and
> realize that there is a very simple solution to the entire mess.
I think there is a simple solution, but it is probably not the same simple
solution that you are thinking of.
>
> This solution would most likely get the Palestinians off the back of the
> Israelis, placate Bin Laden for a while (until he dies of his liver
disease
> or whatever it is), and get Saddam to shut the fuck up.
What? It also doesn't cure cancer?
>
> The solution is to give the Palestinians back enough of their land that
they
> can have a self-sustaining nation, under their own laws, without Israeli
> oppression. Sure, the Israeli government would have to give back land.
Of
> course some of the settlers would be upset, but so fucking what?
Government
> is in place to rule in the best interest of the people, and if stopping
the
> slaughter of innocent people means giving back a few hundred miles of
> desert, then so-be-it!
Your solution is not simple, it is simple minded. There is no evidence that
giving Palies land will stop their desire to destroy Israel. My simple
solution first calls for the Palies to stop killing Israelis. Once Palies
do that, everything else will fall into place for them, they may even get a
nation. IOW, Jeremy, Israel ought to not give anything until they first get
peace. Now, you have to agree, that is simple. Even an idiot can
understand that.
>
> Both nations could coexist side by side if the Israelis would just sit
down
> at the table for some REALISTIC peace talks instead of stonewalling the
> Palestinians at every chance.
Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
>
> Damn it felt great to get that all off my chest. I just get sick of
hearing
> the same fucking arguement again and again as to why the Israelis are
> morally right to do what they are doing. It's bullshit, and the
individuals
> who knowingly oppress the Palestinian people will hopefully enjoy a long
> stay in hell when they die.
>
> -- J (and NO, I'm NOT anti-semitic DAMMIT!)
> See! I already know exactly what you're going to accuse me of!
You are wrong. I have never called you anti-Semitic and since you've said
nothing in this post that you have not already said before, I am not going
to call you anti-Semitic now. I point this out, not so much to show that I
am some sort of even-handed dude, but rather because I want to show you that
you can be wrong. You are wrong about me calling you an anti-Semite and you
are wrong about other things you have said in this post.
Jeremy Merrill
>
> "Jeremy Merrill" <mudf...@san.rr.com> wrote in message
> news:pEfF9.44677$%k2.15...@twister.socal.rr.com...
> > Oh god will you give up with the whole "you hit me so I hit you"
> attitude?!?
>
> no
Why? (I'll address this later)
>
> > Fuck!
>
> indeed
>
> >
> > That is the problem with the majority of Middle Eastern relations, in
that
> > their feuds go back so far they can't even remember who started it
> anymore.
> > People there bitch and moan about the killing and oppression, yet the
ones
> > with the power to stop it do ABSOLUTELY NOTHING about it except continue
> the
> > violence! I'm so fucking sick of the Israeli government retaliating
> against
> > little kids who throw rocks by using machine guns! Grow the fuck up
> people!
>
> Yes, everyone else is so stupid, so childish. How do you manage to keep
> your sanity? It must be so difficult for you, to be amonst us lesser
> beings. It is a privilege to read your posts.
I detect a note of sarcasm, yet somehow it also rings true.
What other bargaining chip do they have? You tell me David. What
power-play can they pull? Can they enforce an embargo? NO. Can they
withhold trade relations, forcing Israel to it's knees? NO. Can they sit in
doorways and effect change in non-violent ways? NO.
The Palestinians have TRIED sitting down at the table, but without some form
of knife at their throats the Israeli government does not seem to take them
seriously. It is sad as hell, but it seems as though the current violence
is the only way the Palestinians could get the world's attention, and yet
they still are not getting results.
>
> >
> > Both nations could coexist side by side if the Israelis would just sit
> down
> > at the table for some REALISTIC peace talks instead of stonewalling the
> > Palestinians at every chance.
>
> Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
Maybe that's part of the problem, you sleep through the important stuff!
>
> >
> > Damn it felt great to get that all off my chest. I just get sick of
> hearing
> > the same fucking arguement again and again as to why the Israelis are
> > morally right to do what they are doing. It's bullshit, and the
> individuals
> > who knowingly oppress the Palestinian people will hopefully enjoy a long
> > stay in hell when they die.
> >
> > -- J (and NO, I'm NOT anti-semitic DAMMIT!)
> > See! I already know exactly what you're going to accuse me
of!
>
> You are wrong. I have never called you anti-Semitic and since you've said
> nothing in this post that you have not already said before, I am not going
> to call you anti-Semitic now. I point this out, not so much to show that
I
> am some sort of even-handed dude, but rather because I want to show you
that
> you can be wrong. You are wrong about me calling you an anti-Semite and
you
> are wrong about other things you have said in this post.
Well in this one instance then, I will retract my statement. Once a person
gets used to being called an anti-semite on the mere fact that he doesn't
agree with the Israeli government, it get's old quick. I have been called
this hateful name, and the sole reason is my views on the oppression of
Palestinians. So far though, not one single hard-line Jew or
Israel-supporter has voiced a change of opinion based on my arguments.
There are Jewish people out there that feel the way I do, and to them I
offer gratitude. They have to face accusations of being traitors to their
own religion, yet they still fight for what is right.
Thank you,
-- J
Karl
>
> Ha ha. Yeah.
One of the problems currently causing Jews to suffer around the world is
that *some* of our number respond to criticism of Israel with the refrain
"anti-semite". This gives true anti-semites the chance to sneer and accuse
Jews of playing the race card. Enough of the anti-semite accusation,
already!
I'll explain anti-semite to you. I know 3 people born in concentration camps
whose lives, and those of their children and grandchildren have been
blighted. Mental illness among Jews is far higher than most other groups as
a result of the holocaust. Attacks on shops, synagogues and Jewish
cemetaries aren't quite commonplace, but too frequent for comfort. That's
anti-semitism.
Israel's behaviour in the past 50 years, and especially in the past 2, has
cause genuine outrage worldwide, including among a large part of the Jewish
community. It is *not* anti-semitic to criticise Israel - live with it.
You won't be hearing from me again.
David Schwartz
That's because your ideas are stupid. That makes sense, doesn't it? If
your ideas are stupid, no one is going to buy into them, Right?
You claim that the only thing Palies can do is kill Israelis. Well, if the
only tool you have is a hammer, then every problem becomes a nail, I guess.
But you know, Palies are not the first people in the history of mankind to
be oppressed. Yes, let us agree the Palies are oppressed. We may differ on
why they are oppressed, but suffice it for now for us to agree that they are
oppressed. So, how have other people dealt with oppression? What about
Blacks in the Southern USA in the 1960s? Did they escape their oppression
with violence (Jesse Jackdon with a machine gun??)? How about the blacks in
South Africa? Did they blast their way to ending apartheid? What about
Indians (i.e. Hindus) gaining independence from Britan? Did they kill
enough Englishmen until they got their freedom? Where is the Palestinian
Martin Luther King, Nelson Mandela, or Mahatma Ghandi to lead the Palies
from their oppression to freedon? No, the Palies are going to try to shoot
their way out.
Look at the countries of Eastern Europe who lived under Soviet occupation
for decades. Did the Poles, Hungarians, Chechoslovakians, Latvians,
Ukrainians, Estonians, East German, and all those others throw off their
oppressors with violence?
No, but the Palies prefer to shoot it out. Can you show me an example from
history that makes you think the Palie strategy is going to succeed?
David Schwartz
> "David Schwartz" <davi...@shaw.ca> wrote in message
> news:cfeF9.119667$ka.28...@news1.calgary.shaw.ca...
> >
> > "Karl" <karlpe...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> > > So I'm a Jewish anti-semite.
> >
> > Ha ha. Yeah.
>
> One of the problems currently causing Jews to suffer around the world is
> that *some* of our number respond to criticism of Israel with the refrain
> "anti-semite". This gives true anti-semites the chance to sneer and accuse
> Jews of playing the race card. Enough of the anti-semite accusation,
> already!
You are an anti-Semite. You have no right or authority to speak for all
Jews, seeing as how much you hate them.
Not only do you make excuses for the people who kill Israelis, but you even
have sympathy for people who pick on Jews, outside of Israel.
"As a Jew in Europe, I am increasingly in danger of attack because of the
extreme right-wing policies being conducted by Sharon."
You understand why you would be attacked and would bear no animosity towards
your attackers. You would blame Israel for your beating.
Jews are being gunned down in the street every day in Israel by Palestinian
murderers and you only have sympathy for the Palies.
You are an anti-Semite.
Why do you even identify yourself as a Jew? Do you think it gives your
attacks any more credibility that an attack from someone else??
I have read your posts on other threads. You respond with incredible
passion when someone says something about blacks, or about Palies, but I
have seen no such passion for Jews and Israel, unless it is against them.
In a previous post on this thread, someone said about you...
"Strange bird, this *Karl Peterson.* Hates white racists, praises DAFNz but
vilifies conservative blacks such as BARD, and at the same time denigrates
Israel in favor of ragheads."
"Add them all up and I think our Brit twit is about as Scandanavian as Idi
Amin, probably some euro-born *wog* named *Hussain Assadollakh* or something
like that, who can't stand the fact that his skin is what Andrew Dice Clay
called *urine-colored.*"
Karl, are you a WOG? I don't even know what a WOG is, but are you a WOG?
I'm not sure what a WOG is, but I think the name fits you. You must be a
WOG.
You come off as so understanding, so fair and even-handed. You have
tremendous sympathy for blacks and Palies, but you hate anyone who says
anything bad about them, as if, someone's life experiences are not even
worth inquiring into, to make them wonder why they feel a certain way. As
if someone could never be the victim of a black or Palie assault, and have a
legitimate axe to grind.
As far as I can tell, all your posts are so you can make friends with blacks
and Palies, and nothing else matters to you. You come off as fair and
even-handed, but you are not. You are as capable of hate speech and
prejudice as anyone.
>
> I'll explain anti-semite to you. I know 3 people born in concentration
camps
> whose lives, and those of their children and grandchildren have been
> blighted. Mental illness among Jews is far higher than most other groups
as
> a result of the holocaust. Attacks on shops, synagogues and Jewish
> cemetaries aren't quite commonplace, but too frequent for comfort. That's
> anti-semitism.
Don't explain anything to me. You have no credibility.
>
> Israel's behaviour in the past 50 years, and especially in the past 2, has
> cause genuine outrage worldwide, including among a large part of the
Jewish
> community. It is *not* anti-semitic to criticise Israel - live with it.
>
> You won't be hearing from me again.
But you will be hearing from me. I know you now, Herr Karl, mein furher.
Whenever I see you peddling your bullshit, intimidating others, I will be
calling you on it. Big time. TTFN
>
>
David Schwartz
"MONK EASTMAN" <ric...@lycos.com> wrote in message
news:uti01gi...@corp.supernews.com...
> For the first time in years the Palestinians have pulled of a clean
military
> action. That's a military action that didn't target women and children.
The
> recent massacre of 12 Israeli soldiers was an outstanding operation.
> Included in the kill was the local Israeli army commander, a just reward
for
> the man's incompetence. Of course the incident never should have happened.
> The area surrounding Hebron is an armed camp; there should have been
> extensive recon patrols, the possibility of such a blood-letting should
have
> been entirely eliminated. The Israelis should have owned the hills around
> Hebrons; they should have long-range recon guys camped there.
>
> Had they had long-range recon guys camped there the ambush would have
never
> taken place. A long-range recon man is a guy you drop in the contested
area
> and leave alone. He stays there living off the land, becoming one with the
> terrain for weeks after which he's replaced by another long-range recon
guy.
> Sure, it's rough duty but it's the only way to prevent the kind of ambush
> that occurred the other day. Bottom line, Israel screwed up bad by not
> having these guys in place.
>
> BARD
>
>
Jeremy Merrill
your own ignorance. Do the blinders you're wearing fit well or do they
chaffe your numb skull? Just curious.
-- J
"David Schwartz" <davi...@shaw.ca> wrote in message
news:mcWF9.132820$ka.30...@news1.calgary.shaw.ca...
David Schwartz
Name-calling, baiting, taunting, intimidating, and similar sorts of behavior
do not interest me.
In my last post where I replied to you, I thought I made a number of very,
very good points -- points that I thought you would have to admit the truth
in. Points that I thought would be a basis for productive discussion. Let
me repost it here, to give you the chance to make a substantive reply:
"You claim that the only thing Palies can do is kill Israelis. Well, if the
only tool you have is a hammer, then every problem becomes a nail, I guess.
But you know, Palies are not the first people in the history of mankind to
be oppressed. Yes, let us agree the Palies are oppressed. We may differ on
why they are oppressed, but suffice it for now for us to agree that they are
oppressed. So, how have other people dealt with oppression? What about
Blacks in the Southern USA in the 1960s? Did they escape their oppression
with violence (Jesse Jackdon with a machine gun??)? How about the blacks in
South Africa? Did they blast their way to ending apartheid? What about
Indians (i.e. Hindus) gaining independence from Britan? Did they kill
enough Englishmen until they got their freedom? Where is the Palestinian
Martin Luther King, Nelson Mandela, or Mahatma Ghandi to lead the Palies
from their oppression to freedon? No, the Palies are going to try to shoot
their way out.
"Look at the countries of Eastern Europe who lived under Soviet occupation
for decades. Did the Poles, Hungarians, Chechoslovakians, Latvians,
Ukrainians, Estonians, East German, and all those others throw off their
oppressors with violence?
"No, but the Palies prefer to shoot it out. Can you show me an example from
history that makes you think the Palie strategy is going to succeed?"
If you decide that discussing this issue with me is not satisfying or
productive for you, then please just let it go. I see no need to make
personal attacks on one another.
"Jeremy Merrill" <mudf...@san.rr.com> wrote in message
news:rZyG9.63232$2z1.21...@twister.socal.rr.com...
Jeremy Merrill
desagreement with the Israeli government's policy of aparthied (or whatever
you will choose to call their oppression of the Palestinians) does not make
one an Anti-Semite. Karl makes some great points in his arguments here.
The comment about the blinders you are wearing was based on your statement
that the discussion was over. It is like you don't want to hear anything
that could possibly make you change your mind.
In your post you mention non-violent means of rebellion, but in all honesty,
do you think that such means would work against the Israeli government? In
what way would non-violent protest hold the Israelis to giving back the
stolen land to the Palestinian people? It is not considered to be proper to
side with the Palestinians if you are a "western" government, so how would
the non-violent protest change that situation?
The Palestinians have been met at every opportunity with extreme violence on
the behalf of the Israeli government. Little kids throwing rocks at
body-armor-wearing military personnel are gunned down. What hope does this
give the Palestinian people for peaceful resistance? I sure as hell
wouldn't believe in it if I were in their shoes. In Israel torture of
prisoners is legal, so why would someone put themselves in a doorway for a
sit-in, only to be dragged off and tortured horribly in prison? In America
there were legal buffers against such acts...in Israel I see none. If
there, please inform me because as far as I understand, a Palestinian would
be taking his or her life in their hands if they staged non-violent protest
of the sort that took place in India, America, and the former East-Block
nations.
-- J
"David Schwartz" <davi...@shaw.ca> wrote in message
news:T5BG9.19868$Qr.3...@news3.calgary.shaw.ca...
David Schwartz
> David...you've been making personal attacks all along the way. The mere
> desagreement with the Israeli government's policy of aparthied (or
whatever
> you will choose to call their oppression of the Palestinians) does not
make
> one an Anti-Semite.
I believe I said this on several occasions.
> Karl makes some great points in his arguments here.
No, he does not. He made not a single good point and he is an anti-Semite.
> The comment about the blinders you are wearing was based on your statement
> that the discussion was over. It is like you don't want to hear anything
> that could possibly make you change your mind.
I could say the same thing about you.
>
> In your post you mention non-violent means of rebellion, but in all
honesty,
> do you think that such means would work against the Israeli government?
Yes.
> In
> what way would non-violent protest hold the Israelis to giving back the
> stolen land to the Palestinian people?
Once the Palies show that they can be good neighbors, Israel will not have
any objection to a Palie state. Surely, you must see the cost of the
occupation to Israel? Israelis reservists are on active duty, Israeli
citizens gunned down in the streets by Palie murders, and international
pressure. Would you be so kind as to tell me what you think Israel is
trying to achive with the occupation, if it is not safety/security for
Israel? I mean, when Palies are allowed to move about unrestricted,
Israelie die. You realize that, don't you? Occupation is one of the
consequences of armed resistance. Or, do you expect Israel to do nothing?
> It is not considered to be proper to
> side with the Palestinians if you are a "western" government, so how would
> the non-violent protest change that situation?
That is a foolish thing to say. I suggest you read some of the BBC articles
that your buddie KKKarl posted.
>
> The Palestinians have been met at every opportunity with extreme violence
on
> the behalf of the Israeli government.
You just made that up.
> Little kids throwing rocks at
> body-armor-wearing military personnel are gunned down.
Time to stop throwing rocks? Those kids aren't properly supervised,
wouldn't you say?. What kind of parent would let his kid throw rocks at a
soldier? If you throw rocks at a soldier, you have to figure one of the
things that might happen is that you will be shot at. That is a simple fact
of life. Like throwing rocks at a policeman. You must accept that.
> What hope does this
> give the Palestinian people for peaceful resistance? I sure as hell
> wouldn't believe in it if I were in their shoes. In Israel torture of
> prisoners is legal, so why would someone put themselves in a doorway for a
> sit-in, only to be dragged off and tortured horribly in prison? In
America
> there were legal buffers against such acts...in Israel I see none. If
> there, please inform me because as far as I understand, a Palestinian
would
> be taking his or her life in their hands if they staged non-violent
protest
> of the sort that took place in India, America, and the former East-Block
> nations.
Steve Biko died in police custody in SA. I'm sure that when blacks were
imprisoned during the civil rights days, that some were roughed up in
prison, too. Didn't they make a movie called Mississippi Burning, where
people DIED while they were protesting?
You do not commit non-violent protest because it guarantees your physical
safety. You do it because it is the quickest and best way to get what you
want.
Are you very young, with little/no education?
Karl
> David...you've been making personal attacks all along the way.
Jeremy - what I've realised by reviewing this thread is that David makes
assertions but provides no references to back anything up. He demands
references from others but when they are provided he ignores them, and
throws out insults in exchange. I therefore decided it was a waste of time
continuing with him, especially when he resorted to the usual fallback
strategy of calling me anti-semitic (ignoring the fact that I'm Jewish! LOL)
Jeremy Merrill
>
> "Jeremy Merrill" <mudf...@san.rr.com> wrote in message
> news:hUBG9.63272$2z1.21...@twister.socal.rr.com...
> > David...you've been making personal attacks all along the way. The mere
> > desagreement with the Israeli government's policy of aparthied (or
> whatever
> > you will choose to call their oppression of the Palestinians) does not
> make
> > one an Anti-Semite.
>
> I believe I said this on several occasions.
>
> > Karl makes some great points in his arguments here.
>
> No, he does not. He made not a single good point and he is an
anti-Semite.
>
He does make great points...he thinks out the issues from a humanist
standpoint, rather than taking religious or ethical sides. The people are
what matter in this conflict, both Palestinian AND Israeli, but many people
ignore that and just seem to side with which ever one suits their agenda.
> > The comment about the blinders you are wearing was based on your
statement
> > that the discussion was over. It is like you don't want to hear
anything
> > that could possibly make you change your mind.
>
> I could say the same thing about you.
>
Please do...I'll be waiting to see if it makes sense.
> >
> > In your post you mention non-violent means of rebellion, but in all
> honesty,
> > do you think that such means would work against the Israeli government?
>
> Yes.
>
Please explain. If you can provide me with a realistic example of a
non-violent action that would get the Palestinians their land back, I want
to know about it. Believe it or not, I will listen to reasonable
alternatives. My only point though is that I see no reasonably effective
non-violent means for the Palestinians regaining their land.
> > In
> > what way would non-violent protest hold the Israelis to giving back the
> > stolen land to the Palestinian people?
>
> Once the Palies show that they can be good neighbors, Israel will not have
> any objection to a Palie state. Surely, you must see the cost of the
> occupation to Israel? Israelis reservists are on active duty, Israeli
> citizens gunned down in the streets by Palie murders, and international
> pressure.<
The Israeli government doesn't seem to mind.
There is a quote I would like you to think about. I heard it in a Rage
Against the Machine track, but it may have been written somewhere else
first.
Anyway, it says, "Hungry people don't stay hungry for long, they gain hope
from fire and smoke as they reach for the dawn..." I believe in this
statement 100%. It's meaning is that when people are hungry, in this case
for their freedom and land, they only see hope in immediate revolution, aka
"fire and smoke". Within the fire and smoke they see change, or the ability
to effect the situation.
In non-violent protest they see nothing but waiting around. Honestly,
without international pressure do you really think the Israeli government
will say, "well, you've been good Pallies for a while, so we're going to
give your land back to you now, since you finally decided to ask nicely."?
Why would they?
>Would you be so kind as to tell me what you think Israel is
> trying to achive with the occupation, if it is not safety/security for
> Israel? I mean, when Palies are allowed to move about unrestricted,
> Israelie die. You realize that, don't you? Occupation is one of the
> consequences of armed resistance. Or, do you expect Israel to do nothing?
>
Which came first, the chicken or the egg? I could ask the same of you in
this case. Which came first, the occupation or the violence? The
occupation was the result of the application of violent means by the
Israelis right? How else would one maintain occupation forces? Sure,
occupation may be the consequence of armed resistance, but without
occupation there would be no armed resistance.
The safety and security of Israelis could easily be obtained by giving the
Palestinians their own soveigrn nation. Such a national treaty could be
monitored by the UN and militarily enforced to ensure a peaceful border.
Thus you have solved the entire problem in one fell swoop.
> > It is not considered to be proper to
> > side with the Palestinians if you are a "western" government, so how
would
> > the non-violent protest change that situation?
>
> That is a foolish thing to say. I suggest you read some of the BBC
articles
> that your buddie KKKarl posted.
>
> >
> > The Palestinians have been met at every opportunity with extreme
violence
> on
> > the behalf of the Israeli government.
>
> You just made that up.
>
Ok, so they haven't been? How about the Apache helicopter attacks on
SUSPECTED militants? Ever hear of a court of law? Ever hear of innocent
until proven guilty? Guess the Israelis haven't! Did I really make it up?
How violent would you consider it if someone on your block made a bomb and
blew up some civilians, so the government came and bulldozed YOUR house and
those of your neighbors? In my opinion, that is EXTREME VIOLENCE.
> > Little kids throwing rocks at
> > body-armor-wearing military personnel are gunned down.
>
> Time to stop throwing rocks? Those kids aren't properly supervised,
> wouldn't you say?.
Does that mean they deserve to die? It is this same holier-than-thou
attitude that has the Israeli government in this mess in the first place!
Kids do stupid shit! I threw rocks at cars when I was in middle school.
Was I gunned down by people in body armor? Nope. Why not just arrest the
kids? Why not use bean-bag rounds? How about tear gas? How about pepper
spray? But they must not have such modern inventions in Israel...just
machine guns, uzis (an Israeli invention), body armor, tanks, apache
gunships, etc.
>What kind of parent would let his kid throw rocks at a
> soldier? If you throw rocks at a soldier, you have to figure one of the
> things that might happen is that you will be shot at.<
Why? I would figure he'd just run over and kick my ass instead of shooting
me. Do the Israeli soldiers have no self control? What about morals? What
about acting like adults and practicing self-control? A stone isn't going
to do shit to a soldier in full body armor. Gimme a fucking break!
>That is a simple fact
> of life.<
How so?!? Bullshit! If an American kid was gunned down by cops for
throwing a rock at them that officer would be strung up! Why do we not have
the same compassion for a little Palestinian child?! It is because the
Israelis don't look at them as children, they only see monsters in training.
They have racially classified them as nothing but animals, so they are
treated as such.
>Like throwing rocks at a policeman. You must accept that.<
I must not accept that, and neither should anyone with a brain and human
decency. Again, I refer to my last comment.
>
> > What hope does this
> > give the Palestinian people for peaceful resistance? I sure as hell
> > wouldn't believe in it if I were in their shoes. In Israel torture of
> > prisoners is legal, so why would someone put themselves in a doorway for
a
> > sit-in, only to be dragged off and tortured horribly in prison? In
> America
> > there were legal buffers against such acts...in Israel I see none. If
> > there, please inform me because as far as I understand, a Palestinian
> would
> > be taking his or her life in their hands if they staged non-violent
> protest
> > of the sort that took place in India, America, and the former East-Block
> > nations.
>
> Steve Biko died in police custody in SA. I'm sure that when blacks were
> imprisoned during the civil rights days, that some were roughed up in
> prison, too. Didn't they make a movie called Mississippi Burning, where
> people DIED while they were protesting?
>
And in each case the people who did the killing were dealt with by the law.
Where is the law to protect the Palestinian people? There is none!
SUSPECTS are murdered without trial, those detained, however rare, are
tortured, neighborhoods are bulldozed...if that had happened in America in
modern times it would be a national outrage, a shame on the entire nation!
Why should Israel not learn from America's past misdeeds?!
Your comparison between Israel today and America during the civil rights
movement was correct in a way, but only to prove that Israel is emulating
the horriffic racist bullshit that America fought so hard to rid itself of
over 40 years ago. And Israel claims to be a civilized nation?!? Bullshit
I say!
> You do not commit non-violent protest because it guarantees your physical
> safety. You do it because it is the quickest and best way to get what you
> want.
It is far from the quickest way to get what you want! Non-violent protest
takes years and years of dedication, as well as a legal system that is set
up to protect all people equally. There is no such system in Israel when it
comes to Palestinians suspected of criminal activity. Like I have said
before, SUSPECTS there are routinely murdered. Do you dispute this FACT?
>
> Are you very young, with little/no education?
I have a B.A. , I have taken college coursework in International Security
and Conflict Resolution, I have studied civil rights in college, I have a
teaching credential, and I am in the process of obtaining my M.A. How about
you?
--J
Jeremy Merrill
in his answers to my assertions.
-- J
"Karl" <karlpe...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:3deb9164$0$24221$afc3...@news.easynet.co.uk...
David Schwartz
"Jeremy Merrill" <mudf...@san.rr.com> wrote in message
news:9MVG9.79897$%k2.20...@twister.socal.rr.com...
>
> "David Schwartz" <davi...@shaw.ca> wrote in message
> news:WbEG9.20918$Qr.4...@news3.calgary.shaw.ca...
> >
> > "Jeremy Merrill" <mudf...@san.rr.com> wrote in message
> > news:hUBG9.63272$2z1.21...@twister.socal.rr.com...
> > > David...you've been making personal attacks all along the way. The
mere
> > > desagreement with the Israeli government's policy of aparthied (or
> > whatever
> > > you will choose to call their oppression of the Palestinians) does not
> > make
> > > one an Anti-Semite.
> >
> > I believe I said this on several occasions.
> >
> > > Karl makes some great points in his arguments here.
> >
> > No, he does not. He made not a single good point and he is an
> anti-Semite.
> >
>
> He does make great points...he thinks out the issues from a humanist
> standpoint, rather than taking religious or ethical sides. The people are
> what matter in this conflict, both Palestinian AND Israeli, but many
people
> ignore that and just seem to side with which ever one suits their agenda.
I have heard nothing from you to suggest that you care about people on both
sides. You only sound like you care about Palies.
>
>
> > > The comment about the blinders you are wearing was based on your
> statement
> > > that the discussion was over. It is like you don't want to hear
> anything
> > > that could possibly make you change your mind.
> >
> > I could say the same thing about you.
> >
>
> Please do...I'll be waiting to see if it makes sense.
>
> > >
> > > In your post you mention non-violent means of rebellion, but in all
> > honesty,
> > > do you think that such means would work against the Israeli
government?
> >
> > Yes.
> >
>
> Please explain. If you can provide me with a realistic example of a
> non-violent action that would get the Palestinians their land back, I want
> to know about it. Believe it or not, I will listen to reasonable
> alternatives. My only point though is that I see no reasonably effective
> non-violent means for the Palestinians regaining their land.
That is your problem.
>
> > > In
> > > what way would non-violent protest hold the Israelis to giving back
the
> > > stolen land to the Palestinian people?
> >
> > Once the Palies show that they can be good neighbors, Israel will not
have
> > any objection to a Palie state. Surely, you must see the cost of the
> > occupation to Israel? Israelis reservists are on active duty, Israeli
> > citizens gunned down in the streets by Palie murders, and international
> > pressure.<
>
> The Israeli government doesn't seem to mind.
That was a foolish, nonsensical thing to say. Israel is in a war with the
Palies. People are going to die.
>
> There is a quote I would like you to think about. I heard it in a Rage
> Against the Machine track, but it may have been written somewhere else
> first.
>
> Anyway, it says, "Hungry people don't stay hungry for long, they gain hope
> from fire and smoke as they reach for the dawn..." I believe in this
> statement 100%. It's meaning is that when people are hungry, in this case
> for their freedom and land, they only see hope in immediate revolution,
aka
> "fire and smoke". Within the fire and smoke they see change, or the
ability
> to effect the situation.
>
> In non-violent protest they see nothing but waiting around. Honestly,
> without international pressure do you really think the Israeli government
> will say, "well, you've been good Pallies for a while, so we're going to
> give your land back to you now, since you finally decided to ask nicely."?
> Why would they?
International pressure may very well help move things along, but, what
country is going to stand up for the Palies while the Palies are killing
Israelis? When Palies stop killing Israelis, international pressure will be
stronger. International pressure will be less while the Palies continue
their violence.
As long as Palies continue to kill Israeli children, no one is going to
stand up for the Palies. Well, no one except you.
>
> >Would you be so kind as to tell me what you think Israel is
> > trying to achive with the occupation, if it is not safety/security for
> > Israel? I mean, when Palies are allowed to move about unrestricted,
> > Israelie die. You realize that, don't you? Occupation is one of the
> > consequences of armed resistance. Or, do you expect Israel to do
nothing?
> >
>
> Which came first, the chicken or the egg? I could ask the same of you in
> this case. Which came first, the occupation or the violence? The
> occupation was the result of the application of violent means by the
> Israelis right? How else would one maintain occupation forces? Sure,
> occupation may be the consequence of armed resistance, but without
> occupation there would be no armed resistance.
The violence came first. One day after the state of Israel was founded, its
Arab neighbors attacked. How come you don't know that?
>
> The safety and security of Israelis could easily be obtained by giving the
> Palestinians their own soveigrn nation.
There is no evidence for this statement. You just made it up. Many of the
palies organizations who are killing Israelis are not trying to achieve a
Palie state, they are trying to destroy Israel. These groups are banned
from raising funds in other countries, because they are classified as
terrorist organizations. How come you don't know that?
> Such a national treaty could be
> monitored by the UN and militarily enforced to ensure a peaceful border.
> Thus you have solved the entire problem in one fell swoop.
So simple. One little problem with your plan. It is not simple. You want
to know how I know? Because it is not happening. Simple things happen.
But to suggest that a resolution to the Middle East problem is simple only
shows how naive you are.
The Palies are using terror to get a state. Because they are using terror,
they can never have a state. We do not need another terrorist state. You
need to understand that in this world, we cannot allow people to achieve
their goals with terror. That is Rule # 1. How come you don't know that?
>
> > > It is not considered to be proper to
> > > side with the Palestinians if you are a "western" government, so how
> would
> > > the non-violent protest change that situation?
> >
> > That is a foolish thing to say. I suggest you read some of the BBC
> articles
> > that your buddie KKKarl posted.
> >
>
> > >
> > > The Palestinians have been met at every opportunity with extreme
> violence
> > on
> > > the behalf of the Israeli government.
> >
> > You just made that up.
> >
>
> Ok, so they haven't been? How about the Apache helicopter attacks on
> SUSPECTED militants? Ever hear of a court of law? Ever hear of innocent
> until proven guilty? Guess the Israelis haven't! Did I really make it
up?
> How violent would you consider it if someone on your block made a bomb and
> blew up some civilians, so the government came and bulldozed YOUR house
and
> those of your neighbors? In my opinion, that is EXTREME VIOLENCE.
Israeli is meeting extreme violence with extreme violence. I don't know how
else they can handle it. Court of law? Are you saying that Palies will
testify against other Palies? "Your honor, I saw that man making the bomb."
???
>
> > > Little kids throwing rocks at
> > > body-armor-wearing military personnel are gunned down.
> >
> > Time to stop throwing rocks? Those kids aren't properly supervised,
> > wouldn't you say?.
>
> Does that mean they deserve to die?
I only said if you throw rocks at a soldier, getting shot is one of the
things that can happen to you. When you get shot, one of the things that
can happen to you is you can die.
> It is this same holier-than-thou
> attitude that has the Israeli government in this mess in the first place!
You are so wise, like Solomon.
> Kids do stupid shit! I threw rocks at cars when I was in middle school.
You threw rocks at cars? Aren't you nice. That is not stupid, it is
violent and destructive. Ohhh, now I get it. You like the Palies!!!
> Was I gunned down by people in body armor? Nope.
Did the people in the cars have guns?
> Why not just arrest the
> kids? Why not use bean-bag rounds? How about tear gas? How about pepper
> spray?
A soldier can only carry so much equipment. You need to understand that a
soldier is trained to kill. When you throw rocks at someone who is trained
to kill, you might die. Soldiers are not babysitters.
> But they must not have such modern inventions in Israel...just
> machine guns, uzis (an Israeli invention), body armor, tanks, apache
> gunships, etc.
>
> >What kind of parent would let his kid throw rocks at a
> > soldier? If you throw rocks at a soldier, you have to figure one of the
> > things that might happen is that you will be shot at.<
>
> Why? I would figure he'd just run over and kick my ass instead of
shooting
> me. Do the Israeli soldiers have no self control? What about morals?
What
> about acting like adults and practicing self-control? A stone isn't going
> to do shit to a soldier in full body armor. Gimme a fucking break!
I don't understand how you can say these things so confidently. I have seen
photographs of Israeli soldiers patrolling in occupied territory. I can see
their faces, and their hands, they are not wearing "full body armor". Do
you suppose it might injure a soldier to get hit in the face with a rock? A
soldier has a right to kill anyone who might injure him, even if that person
is a kid. You need to understand that.
>
> >That is a simple fact
> > of life.<
>
> How so?!? Bullshit! If an American kid was gunned down by cops for
> throwing a rock at them that officer would be strung up!
I do not agree. I think everyone would cheer the officer and be glad the
kid was dead.
Wrong again. The Israeli supreme court hears cases concerning the treatment
of Palies.
>
> SUSPECTS are murdered without trial, those detained, however rare, are
> tortured, neighborhoods are bulldozed...if that had happened in America in
> modern times it would be a national outrage, a shame on the entire nation!
> Why should Israel not learn from America's past misdeeds?!
>
> Your comparison between Israel today and America during the civil rights
> movement was correct in a way, but only to prove that Israel is emulating
> the horriffic racist bullshit that America fought so hard to rid itself of
> over 40 years ago. And Israel claims to be a civilized nation?!?
Bullshit
> I say!
You say bullshit.
You know, up until about 2-3 years ago, many Palies worked in Israel. Then
the Palies started killing Israelies and Israel cannot risk letting any
Palies into Israel.
This whole problem is the fault of the Palies.
>
> > You do not commit non-violent protest because it guarantees your
physical
> > safety. You do it because it is the quickest and best way to get what
you
> > want.
>
> It is far from the quickest way to get what you want! Non-violent protest
> takes years and years of dedication, as well as a legal system that is set
> up to protect all people equally. There is no such system in Israel when
it
> comes to Palestinians suspected of criminal activity. Like I have said
> before, SUSPECTS there are routinely murdered. Do you dispute this FACT?
Yes. You say it is a fact? Prove it.
>
> >
> > Are you very young, with little/no education?
>
> I have a B.A. , I have taken college coursework in International Security
> and Conflict Resolution, I have studied civil rights in college, I have a
> teaching credential, and I am in the process of obtaining my M.A. How
about
> you?
I will pass on the opportunity to present you with my resume.
But I am still rather taken aback at what you say. For example, in your
replies to my posts, you show yourself to be confrontational (you called me
ignorant and a numbskull) and emotional ("Gimme a fucking break!"). You
also support violence. And then you say you have conflict resolution
skills? Are you using your conflict resolution skills in these posts?
Because I got news for you, you ain't doing a very good job of resolving the
conflict in the Middle East or resolving the conflict between you and me.
Are as knowledgeable and practiced in "International Security", "civil
rights", and teaching as you are in conflict resolution?
It is like you don't want to hear anything that could possibly make you
change your mind.
>
>
>
Jeremy Merrill
David. You really think the things you said in that post?!? I feel much
sorrow and pity for you as a human being, if that is truly how you feel.
"David Schwartz" <david.s...@attbi.com> wrote in message
news:H_XG9.90858$GR5....@rwcrnsc51.ops.asp.att.net...
I care about all oppressed people. Right now, in Israel, there is only one
group of oppressed people and they are known as Palestinians. The Israeli
people are held hostage by their own government, because THEY are the ones
dying, not the government officials. In that regard I feel sorry for the
Israeli citizenry.
> >
> >
> > > > The comment about the blinders you are wearing was based on your
> > statement
> > > > that the discussion was over. It is like you don't want to hear
> > anything
> > > > that could possibly make you change your mind.
> > >
> > > I could say the same thing about you.
> > >
> >
> > Please do...I'll be waiting to see if it makes sense.
> >
> > > >
> > > > In your post you mention non-violent means of rebellion, but in all
> > > honesty,
> > > > do you think that such means would work against the Israeli
> government?
> > >
> > > Yes.
> > >
> >
> > Please explain. If you can provide me with a realistic example of a
> > non-violent action that would get the Palestinians their land back, I
want
> > to know about it. Believe it or not, I will listen to reasonable
> > alternatives. My only point though is that I see no reasonably
effective
> > non-violent means for the Palestinians regaining their land.
>
> That is your problem.
>
What is? That I don't know a non-violent solution?! Do you? Please
explain.
> >
> > > > In
> > > > what way would non-violent protest hold the Israelis to giving back
> the
> > > > stolen land to the Palestinian people?
> > >
> > > Once the Palies show that they can be good neighbors, Israel will not
> have
> > > any objection to a Palie state. Surely, you must see the cost of the
> > > occupation to Israel? Israelis reservists are on active duty, Israeli
> > > citizens gunned down in the streets by Palie murders, and
international
> > > pressure.<
> >
> > The Israeli government doesn't seem to mind.
>
> That was a foolish, nonsensical thing to say. Israel is in a war with the
> Palies. People are going to die.
>
So if there is a war, then you must expect casualties on both sides. On one
hand you say the Palestinians are terrorists, yet then on the other you say
the groups are at war and deaths should be expected. You can't have it both
ways. You only tolerate the deaths if they serve your racist purpose.
If that is such a sure thing, then why don't some nations step forward and
say that if the Palestinians stop their attacks, they will FORCE Israel to
give back the land? No one is going to step to the plate on that!
Especially not the USA...they're too tied in to special interests.
> As long as Palies continue to kill Israeli children, no one is going to
> stand up for the Palies. Well, no one except you.
>
And everyone else who knows oppression when they see it.
> >
> > >Would you be so kind as to tell me what you think Israel is
> > > trying to achive with the occupation, if it is not safety/security for
> > > Israel? I mean, when Palies are allowed to move about unrestricted,
> > > Israelie die. You realize that, don't you? Occupation is one of the
> > > consequences of armed resistance. Or, do you expect Israel to do
> nothing?
> > >
> >
> > Which came first, the chicken or the egg? I could ask the same of you
in
> > this case. Which came first, the occupation or the violence? The
> > occupation was the result of the application of violent means by the
> > Israelis right? How else would one maintain occupation forces? Sure,
> > occupation may be the consequence of armed resistance, but without
> > occupation there would be no armed resistance.
>
> The violence came first. One day after the state of Israel was founded,
its
> Arab neighbors attacked. How come you don't know that?
>
I DO know that. How come you never asked? Why do you think the Arabs
attacked? Gee...lemme think...could it be that this land was being handed
over to a group of people that technically had no true claim to it, or at
least less of a claim than the Arabs had? I realize that Jews had been
going through horrors throughout WWII, but their independant nation could
have been set up elsewhere.
> >
> > The safety and security of Israelis could easily be obtained by giving
the
> > Palestinians their own soveigrn nation.
>
> There is no evidence for this statement. You just made it up. Many of
the
> palies organizations who are killing Israelis are not trying to achieve a
> Palie state, they are trying to destroy Israel.
Why are they trying to destroy Israel? BECAUSE THEY ARE OPPRESSED BY
ISRAEL!!!! Why is that so hard for you to understand?! Are you really that
ignorant?
>These groups are banned
> from raising funds in other countries, because they are classified as
> terrorist organizations. How come you don't know that?
>
I DO know that moron. Hey, guess what? George Washington was probably
classified as a terrorist by the British during the Revolutionary War. One
man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter.
> > Such a national treaty could be
> > monitored by the UN and militarily enforced to ensure a peaceful border.
> > Thus you have solved the entire problem in one fell swoop.
>
> So simple. One little problem with your plan. It is not simple. You
want
> to know how I know? Because it is not happening. Simple things happen.
> But to suggest that a resolution to the Middle East problem is simple only
> shows how naive you are.
>
> The Palies are using terror to get a state. Because they are using
terror,
> they can never have a state. We do not need another terrorist state. You
> need to understand that in this world, we cannot allow people to achieve
> their goals with terror. That is Rule # 1. How come you don't know that?
>
Rule number one in international relations is that there ARE no rules. If
something would most likely work, then why not try it? The UN and NATO have
enough firepower to enfore international resolutions with ease. What's to
stop us from blowing the shit out of Palestine if, once formed, it engages
in terrorist activities beyond it's own borders? It would be an easy
enforcement!
That's like saying a White man would not testify against another White man
in a court of law. People have varying political beliefs and most would go
with what is right. If Israel doesn't trust Palestinians, then place spies.
Counter intelligence is a very helpful tool. They could model their efforts
after those of the Organized Crime Taskforces here in the US.
> >
> > > > Little kids throwing rocks at
> > > > body-armor-wearing military personnel are gunned down.
> > >
> > > Time to stop throwing rocks? Those kids aren't properly supervised,
> > > wouldn't you say?.
> >
> > Does that mean they deserve to die?
>
> I only said if you throw rocks at a soldier, getting shot is one of the
> things that can happen to you. When you get shot, one of the things that
> can happen to you is you can die.
>
Ah, so if you cross the street, getting run over is one of the things that
can happen to you. When you get run over, one of the things that can happen
to you is you can die. THAT DOESN'T MAKE IT OK TO SWERVE TO HIT SOMEONE! A
GROWN MAN with a MACHINE GUN and BODY ARMOR versus a KID with a few stones
and rags for clothes. Use some common fucking sense and human decency for
god's sake!
> > It is this same holier-than-thou
> > attitude that has the Israeli government in this mess in the first
place!
>
> You are so wise, like Solomon.
>
First thing you've said right all day.
> > Kids do stupid shit! I threw rocks at cars when I was in middle school.
>
> You threw rocks at cars? Aren't you nice. That is not stupid, it is
> violent and destructive. Ohhh, now I get it. You like the Palies!!!
>
Yes, I was a misguided youth. I got in with the wrong crowd so-to-speak.
Now look at me...college grad, grad student, educator, etc. People change.
When you are a kid you don't always know what the consequences are.
Unfortunately for many Palestinian children they will never get to know what
they could have been because of their MUDRED at the hands of ISRAELI
"military" personnel.
> > Was I gunned down by people in body armor? Nope.
>
> Did the people in the cars have guns?
>
They very well could have. I didn't ever find out because if they did, they
didn't have the guts to MURDER a child the way the Israeli soldiers do.
> > Why not just arrest the
> > kids? Why not use bean-bag rounds? How about tear gas? How about
pepper
> > spray?
>
> A soldier can only carry so much equipment. You need to understand that a
> soldier is trained to kill. When you throw rocks at someone who is
trained
> to kill, you might die. Soldiers are not babysitters.
>
They ARE human beings though. Actually, I take that back...I'm beginning to
wonder if anyone who could gun down a kid armed with nothing but some stones
could even be a human being. Does you logic mean that if an 11 year old kid
throws a stone at a Marine, he should be authorized to shoot to kill?
Sounds like that's what you're saying.
> > But they must not have such modern inventions in Israel...just
> > machine guns, uzis (an Israeli invention), body armor, tanks, apache
> > gunships, etc.
> >
> > >What kind of parent would let his kid throw rocks at a
> > > soldier? If you throw rocks at a soldier, you have to figure one of
the
> > > things that might happen is that you will be shot at.<
> >
> > Why? I would figure he'd just run over and kick my ass instead of
> shooting
> > me. Do the Israeli soldiers have no self control? What about morals?
> What
> > about acting like adults and practicing self-control? A stone isn't
going
> > to do shit to a soldier in full body armor. Gimme a fucking break!
>
> I don't understand how you can say these things so confidently. I have
seen
> photographs of Israeli soldiers patrolling in occupied territory. I can
see
> their faces, and their hands, they are not wearing "full body armor". Do
> you suppose it might injure a soldier to get hit in the face with a rock?
A
> soldier has a right to kill anyone who might injure him, even if that
person
> is a kid. You need to understand that.
>
Cops in the US face armed crowds all the time. They PREPARE by wearing riot
gear with face shields and body armor. Every picture of Israeli soldiers I
have seen shows them with helmets, some with face shields, ALL with kevlar
vests. Police in America also use rubber bullets for crowd control. You're
saying that Israeli troops couldn't carry the weight of one extra side-arm
containing rubber bullets? Bullshit.
> >
> > >That is a simple fact
> > > of life.<
> >
> > How so?!? Bullshit! If an American kid was gunned down by cops for
> > throwing a rock at them that officer would be strung up!
>
> I do not agree. I think everyone would cheer the officer and be glad the
> kid was dead.
>
You're a fucking horrible person if you really feel that way. I hope you
like hot weather because Satan is probably warming up a seat for you as we
speak.
Please cite an example.
> >
> > SUSPECTS are murdered without trial, those detained, however rare, are
> > tortured, neighborhoods are bulldozed...if that had happened in America
in
> > modern times it would be a national outrage, a shame on the entire
nation!
> > Why should Israel not learn from America's past misdeeds?!
> >
> > Your comparison between Israel today and America during the civil rights
> > movement was correct in a way, but only to prove that Israel is
emulating
> > the horriffic racist bullshit that America fought so hard to rid itself
of
> > over 40 years ago. And Israel claims to be a civilized nation?!?
> Bullshit
> > I say!
>
> You say bullshit.
>
> You know, up until about 2-3 years ago, many Palies worked in Israel.
Then
> the Palies started killing Israelies and Israel cannot risk letting any
> Palies into Israel.
>
No, EXTREMISTS started killing Israelis. Not all Palestinians were at
fault. It's racial segregation...simple and plain...just like the
Japanese-American prison camps during WWII.
> This whole problem is the fault of the Palies.
>
Another example of the "There's no way any Israeli can be at fault" mindset.
Tell me David, is bliss nice? Because if ignorance is bliss, then you've
got to be the most blissful person alive.
> >
> > > You do not commit non-violent protest because it guarantees your
> physical
> > > safety. You do it because it is the quickest and best way to get what
> you
> > > want.
> >
> > It is far from the quickest way to get what you want! Non-violent
protest
> > takes years and years of dedication, as well as a legal system that is
set
> > up to protect all people equally. There is no such system in Israel
when
> it
> > comes to Palestinians suspected of criminal activity. Like I have said
> > before, SUSPECTS there are routinely murdered. Do you dispute this
FACT?
>
> Yes. You say it is a fact? Prove it.
>
The San Diego Union Tribune today printed a story about a rocket attack on a
vehicle in Israel containing Palestinian SUSPECTS. Israel has an open
policy regarding assassination of SUSPECTED terrorists. This has been
common knowledge for years. They have faced some international criticism
for it, but they don't stop.
> >
> > >
> > > Are you very young, with little/no education?
> >
> > I have a B.A. , I have taken college coursework in International
Security
> > and Conflict Resolution, I have studied civil rights in college, I have
a
> > teaching credential, and I am in the process of obtaining my M.A. How
> about
> > you?
>
> I will pass on the opportunity to present you with my resume.
>
> But I am still rather taken aback at what you say. For example, in your
> replies to my posts, you show yourself to be confrontational (you called
me
> ignorant and a numbskull) and emotional ("Gimme a fucking break!"). You
> also support violence. And then you say you have conflict resolution
> skills? Are you using your conflict resolution skills in these posts?
> Because I got news for you, you ain't doing a very good job of resolving
the
> conflict in the Middle East or resolving the conflict between you and me.
> Are as knowledgeable and practiced in "International Security", "civil
> rights", and teaching as you are in conflict resolution?
>
> It is like you don't want to hear anything that could possibly make you
> change your mind.
>
Honestly I would LOVE to hear something to change my mind. My point of view
is not a popular one. It is not easy talking to people about it. They like
to make personal attacks on my character, but I stand up for what I believe
in.
There is no excuse in this day and age to oppress people based on their
racial, ethnic, or religious background.
There is no excuse for a grown man armed with a machine gun to murder a kid
throwing stones.
There is no excuse for a government to ignore possible solutions to the
murder of it's people.
How we fix these problems is up to all of us, but thereal test lies in the
Israeli government's ability to admit that what it has been doing is wrong,
and make some honest moves towards a realistic peace settlement.
-- J
David Schwartz
> HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!! That is my only real reply to your assertions
> David. You really think the things you said in that post?!? I feel much
> sorrow and pity for you as a human being, if that is truly how you feel.
Finally! Finally, you are beginning to see things my way. Thank you very
much for opening your mind enough to embrace other viewpoints.
Yes, I agree with you here, the Palies are making life very difficult for
the Israelies and Israel has to come down hard on the Palies.
>
> > >
> > >
> > > > > The comment about the blinders you are wearing was based on your
> > > statement
> > > > > that the discussion was over. It is like you don't want to hear
> > > anything
> > > > > that could possibly make you change your mind.
> > > >
> > > > I could say the same thing about you.
> > > >
> > >
> > > Please do...I'll be waiting to see if it makes sense.
> > >
> > > > >
> > > > > In your post you mention non-violent means of rebellion, but in
all
> > > > honesty,
> > > > > do you think that such means would work against the Israeli
> > government?
> > > >
> > > > Yes.
> > > >
> > >
> > > Please explain. If you can provide me with a realistic example of a
> > > non-violent action that would get the Palestinians their land back, I
> want
> > > to know about it. Believe it or not, I will listen to reasonable
> > > alternatives. My only point though is that I see no reasonably
> effective
> > > non-violent means for the Palestinians regaining their land.
> >
> > That is your problem.
> >
>
> What is? That I don't know a non-violent solution?! Do you? Please
> explain.
Excellent point. The Palies really do have to abandon their violent ways if
they are going to get a country of their own.
Yeah, it's a shame, no doubt about it.
>
> > As long as Palies continue to kill Israeli children, no one is going to
> > stand up for the Palies. Well, no one except you.
> >
>
> And everyone else who knows oppression when they see it.
Yeah, I second that! As long as Palies are killing Israeli children, life
is going to be bad for Palies.
>
> > >
> > > >Would you be so kind as to tell me what you think Israel is
> > > > trying to achive with the occupation, if it is not safety/security
for
> > > > Israel? I mean, when Palies are allowed to move about unrestricted,
> > > > Israelie die. You realize that, don't you? Occupation is one of
the
> > > > consequences of armed resistance. Or, do you expect Israel to do
> > nothing?
> > > >
> > >
> > > Which came first, the chicken or the egg? I could ask the same of you
> in
> > > this case. Which came first, the occupation or the violence? The
> > > occupation was the result of the application of violent means by the
> > > Israelis right? How else would one maintain occupation forces? Sure,
> > > occupation may be the consequence of armed resistance, but without
> > > occupation there would be no armed resistance.
> >
> > The violence came first. One day after the state of Israel was founded,
> its
> > Arab neighbors attacked. How come you don't know that?
> >
>
> I DO know that. How come you never asked? Why do you think the Arabs
> attacked? Gee...lemme think...could it be that this land was being handed
> over to a group of people that technically had no true claim to it, or at
> least less of a claim than the Arabs had? I realize that Jews had been
> going through horrors throughout WWII, but their independant nation could
> have been set up elsewhere.
100% agreement there, Israel is where the Jews belong.
>
> > >
> > > The safety and security of Israelis could easily be obtained by giving
> the
> > > Palestinians their own soveigrn nation.
> >
> > There is no evidence for this statement. You just made it up. Many of
> the
> > palies organizations who are killing Israelis are not trying to achieve
a
> > Palie state, they are trying to destroy Israel.
>
> Why are they trying to destroy Israel? BECAUSE THEY ARE OPPRESSED BY
> ISRAEL!!!! Why is that so hard for you to understand?! Are you really
that
> ignorant?
>
> >These groups are banned
> > from raising funds in other countries, because they are classified as
> > terrorist organizations. How come you don't know that?
> >
>
> I DO know that moron. Hey, guess what? George Washington was probably
> classified as a terrorist by the British during the Revolutionary War.
One
> man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter.
Yes, George Washington was a great man. See how nice it is when we both
agree???
>
> > > Such a national treaty could be
> > > monitored by the UN and militarily enforced to ensure a peaceful
border.
> > > Thus you have solved the entire problem in one fell swoop.
> >
> > So simple. One little problem with your plan. It is not simple. You
> want
> > to know how I know? Because it is not happening. Simple things happen.
> > But to suggest that a resolution to the Middle East problem is simple
only
> > shows how naive you are.
> >
> > The Palies are using terror to get a state. Because they are using
> terror,
> > they can never have a state. We do not need another terrorist state.
You
> > need to understand that in this world, we cannot allow people to achieve
> > their goals with terror. That is Rule # 1. How come you don't know
that?
> >
>
> Rule number one in international relations is that there ARE no rules. If
> something would most likely work, then why not try it? The UN and NATO
have
> enough firepower to enfore international resolutions with ease. What's to
> stop us from blowing the shit out of Palestine if, once formed, it engages
> in terrorist activities beyond it's own borders? It would be an easy
> enforcement!
Well, I don't know, but, what the heck, if you say so, OK, let's blow the
shit out of them. But remember, it was your idea. I don't want to be
called a war criminal. I do, however, admire your convictions.
Duh!! It's been staring us in the face all the time! Yes, that's it, we
need Organized Crime Taskforces. Another incredibly simple solution. My
God you are a genius. Listen, Jeremy, I have a sister I would like you to
meet.
>
> > >
> > > > > Little kids throwing rocks at
> > > > > body-armor-wearing military personnel are gunned down.
> > > >
> > > > Time to stop throwing rocks? Those kids aren't properly supervised,
> > > > wouldn't you say?.
> > >
> > > Does that mean they deserve to die?
> >
> > I only said if you throw rocks at a soldier, getting shot is one of the
> > things that can happen to you. When you get shot, one of the things
that
> > can happen to you is you can die.
> >
>
> Ah, so if you cross the street, getting run over is one of the things that
> can happen to you. When you get run over, one of the things that can
happen
> to you is you can die. THAT DOESN'T MAKE IT OK TO SWERVE TO HIT SOMEONE!
A
> GROWN MAN with a MACHINE GUN and BODY ARMOR versus a KID with a few stones
> and rags for clothes. Use some common fucking sense and human decency for
> god's sake!
All right then, fine, let's give the Palie children some body armor and even
it up. Then they can be shot with some dignity.
>
> > > It is this same holier-than-thou
> > > attitude that has the Israeli government in this mess in the first
> place!
> >
> > You are so wise, like Solomon.
> >
>
> First thing you've said right all day.
>
> > > Kids do stupid shit! I threw rocks at cars when I was in middle
school.
> >
> > You threw rocks at cars? Aren't you nice. That is not stupid, it is
> > violent and destructive. Ohhh, now I get it. You like the Palies!!!
> >
>
> Yes, I was a misguided youth. I got in with the wrong crowd so-to-speak.
> Now look at me...college grad, grad student, educator, etc. People
change.
> When you are a kid you don't always know what the consequences are.
> Unfortunately for many Palestinian children they will never get to know
what
> they could have been because of their MUDRED at the hands of ISRAELI
> "military" personnel.
When I think of how close you came to being murdered as a youth, I could
cry.
>
> > > Was I gunned down by people in body armor? Nope.
> >
> > Did the people in the cars have guns?
> >
>
> They very well could have. I didn't ever find out because if they did,
they
> didn't have the guts to MURDER a child the way the Israeli soldiers do.
Maybe they used silencers, but just kept missing you???
>
> > > Why not just arrest the
> > > kids? Why not use bean-bag rounds? How about tear gas? How about
> pepper
> > > spray?
> >
> > A soldier can only carry so much equipment. You need to understand that
a
> > soldier is trained to kill. When you throw rocks at someone who is
> trained
> > to kill, you might die. Soldiers are not babysitters.
> >
>
> They ARE human beings though. Actually, I take that back...I'm beginning
to
> wonder if anyone who could gun down a kid armed with nothing but some
stones
> could even be a human being. Does you logic mean that if an 11 year old
kid
> throws a stone at a Marine, he should be authorized to shoot to kill?
> Sounds like that's what you're saying.
Pow.
Thud.
Kid pushing up daisies.
Maybe we should send US cops to watch the Palies.
>
> > >
> > > >That is a simple fact
> > > > of life.<
> > >
> > > How so?!? Bullshit! If an American kid was gunned down by cops for
> > > throwing a rock at them that officer would be strung up!
> >
> > I do not agree. I think everyone would cheer the officer and be glad
the
> > kid was dead.
> >
>
> You're a fucking horrible person if you really feel that way. I hope you
> like hot weather because Satan is probably warming up a seat for you as we
> speak.
Please provide proof.
Well, OK this once...
http://www.cnn.com/WORLD/meast/9909/06/israel.torture/index.html
Can I have a thank you?
Fine, send the palies to japan, see if I care. Do the palies eat suhi??
>
> > This whole problem is the fault of the Palies.
> >
>
> Another example of the "There's no way any Israeli can be at fault"
mindset.
> Tell me David, is bliss nice? Because if ignorance is bliss, then you've
> got to be the most blissful person alive.
Hmmm, blisss.
>
> > >
> > > > You do not commit non-violent protest because it guarantees your
> > physical
> > > > safety. You do it because it is the quickest and best way to get
what
> > you
> > > > want.
> > >
> > > It is far from the quickest way to get what you want! Non-violent
> protest
> > > takes years and years of dedication, as well as a legal system that is
> set
> > > up to protect all people equally. There is no such system in Israel
> when
> > it
> > > comes to Palestinians suspected of criminal activity. Like I have said
> > > before, SUSPECTS there are routinely murdered. Do you dispute this
> FACT?
> >
> > Yes. You say it is a fact? Prove it.
> >
>
> The San Diego Union Tribune today printed a story about a rocket attack on
a
> vehicle in Israel containing Palestinian SUSPECTS. Israel has an open
> policy regarding assassination of SUSPECTED terrorists. This has been
> common knowledge for years. They have faced some international criticism
> for it, but they don't stop.
palies kill israelis, israelis kill palies
An eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth
last man standing wins
capeche?
Believe me, you do come off as a bit of a kook.
>
> There is no excuse in this day and age to oppress people based on their
> racial, ethnic, or religious background.
How about oppressing them because they are killing you?
>
> There is no excuse for a grown man armed with a machine gun to murder a
kid
> throwing stones.
Death by stoning?
Jeremy Merrill
discussion to the table, you have chosen to act like a 4th grade kid.
Better be careful though,...the Israeli soldiers enjoy killing kids about
that age! But wait, you're not Palestinian, nevermind, you don't have to
worry about that.
I asked you some important questions and all you did was pretend as though I
was agreeing with your racist and violent assertions. Pitiful if you ask
me.
-- J
"David Schwartz" <david.s...@attbi.com> wrote in message
news:ltZG9.93365$GR5....@rwcrnsc51.ops.asp.att.net...
David Schwartz
> David...I think it's truly sad that instead of bringing meaningful
> discussion to the table, you have chosen to act like a 4th grade kid.
> Better be careful though,...the Israeli soldiers enjoy killing kids about
> that age! But wait, you're not Palestinian, nevermind, you don't have to
> worry about that.
Can you post proof that Israeli soldiers enjoy killing Palie children?
Or, did you not really mean that?
Jeremy Merrill
>
> Can you post proof that Israeli soldiers enjoy killing Palie children?
>
> Or, did you not really mean that?
>
Have they stopped doing it? Have they taken steps to use non-lethal weapons
against them? Have they created and enforced an arrest policy rather than a
shoot-to-kill policy? NO? Hmmm...then they must enjoy it somewhat. Seems
pretty simple when you look at it that way doesn't it?
-- J
David Schwartz
>
> >
> > Can you post proof that Israeli soldiers enjoy killing Palie children?
> >
> > Or, did you not really mean that?
> >
>
> Have they stopped doing it? Have they taken steps to use non-lethal
weapons
> against them? Have they created and enforced an arrest policy rather than
a
> shoot-to-kill policy? NO? Hmmm...then they must enjoy it somewhat.
Seems
> pretty simple when you look at it that way doesn't it?
Simple? yes.
Correct? no
Why don't you write a letter to the Israeli general in charge of the armed
forces and tell him what you think? It really does not do a lot of good to
complain to me. Maybe he will like your ideas and invite you to come to
Israel, to train the troops. Then, you will really be making a difference.
You may even decide you want to live in the Gaza Strip, and learn to speak
Arabic.
Jeremy Merrill
>
> "Jeremy Merrill" <mudf...@san.rr.com> wrote in message
> news:mydH9.67616$2z1.23...@twister.socal.rr.com...
> >
> > >
> > > Can you post proof that Israeli soldiers enjoy killing Palie children?
> > >
> > > Or, did you not really mean that?
> > >
> >
> > Have they stopped doing it? Have they taken steps to use non-lethal
> weapons
> > against them? Have they created and enforced an arrest policy rather
than
> a
> > shoot-to-kill policy? NO? Hmmm...then they must enjoy it somewhat.
> Seems
> > pretty simple when you look at it that way doesn't it?
>
> Simple? yes.
> Correct? no
Why not? Please explain.
>
> Why don't you write a letter to the Israeli general in charge of the armed
> forces and tell him what you think?
I would probably be jailed and tortured OR outright murdered as a
Palestinian sympathizer. Either that or I would recieve no reply, just like
when I try to ask YOU questions.
>It really does not do a lot of good to
> complain to me.
I know, but it's still fun to debate you. Rather easy to win when you so
easily give up on rational debate and instead go straight for the sarcasm
and facetiousness.
>Maybe he will like your ideas and invite you to come to
> Israel, to train the troops. Then, you will really be making a
difference.
I doubt he'd like it. It would mean no more killing of innocent
people...and what fun would THAT be for him? By the way, speaking of
killing innocent people, did you hear about the 95 year old Palestinian
woman travelling in the backseat of a car who was gunned down by Israeli
"soldiers" either yesterday or today? I'll bet she was a pretty dangerous
95 year old...maybe she would have gummed the Israeli "soldiers" to death!
Probably a good thing they shot her to death eh?
> You may even decide you want to live in the Gaza Strip, and learn to speak
> Arabic.
That would be a tempting offer. I'd love to learn a new language, and I
have several Muslim students who would get a real kick out of me speaking
Arabic. I'll look into that. First decent suggestion you've made in this
argument.
David Schwartz
>
> "David Schwartz" <david.s...@attbi.com> wrote in message
> news:ZffH9.229788$%m4.8...@rwcrnsc52.ops.asp.att.net...
> >
> > "Jeremy Merrill" <mudf...@san.rr.com> wrote in message
> > news:mydH9.67616$2z1.23...@twister.socal.rr.com...
> > >
> > > >
> > > > Can you post proof that Israeli soldiers enjoy killing Palie
children?
> > > >
> > > > Or, did you not really mean that?
> > > >
> > >
> > > Have they stopped doing it? Have they taken steps to use non-lethal
> > weapons
> > > against them? Have they created and enforced an arrest policy rather
> than
> > a
> > > shoot-to-kill policy? NO? Hmmm...then they must enjoy it somewhat.
> > Seems
> > > pretty simple when you look at it that way doesn't it?
> >
> > Simple? yes.
> > Correct? no
>
> Why not? Please explain.
I could take your logic, and use it to prove that Palies enjoy being killed
by Israelis...
1. Have they stopped throwing rocks?
2. Have they taken steps to make their points without violence?
Hmm, they must enjoy being killed by Israeli soldiers. Seems pretty simple
when you look at it that way doesn't it?
>
> >
Karl
> Karl./...read this post I just put up for him...I think you'll be
interested
> in his answers to my assertions.
I'm trying to blank the guy from my mind. He referred to me as an
anti-semite (the one and only time in my life I've been called that) and I
don't know whether to laugh or cry. I read daily the horrors carried out by
Israel and it affects me because I've been brought up (like most Jews) to
revere Israel as the homeland. So many Jews like David (including some
members of my own family) can't bring themselves to read about or
acknowledge what Israel is doing - if Israel nuked every other country in
the Middle East they'd find an excuse.
Then I read articles like this one yesterday and wonder how anyone is
surprised when Palestinians turn to terrorism.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,3604,852485,00.html
Israel accused of Hebron land grab
Palestinian homes to be demolished on link road
Chris McGreal in Hebron
Tuesday December 3, 2002
The Guardian
The Israeli army yesterday pasted notices ordering property seizures and
house demolitions the length of a street in Hebron that Ariel Sharon wants
to use to link two belligerent Jewish settlements.
The order horrified but did not surprise the residents of Al-Haram street
after the prime minister's call three weeks ago for what Palestinians say
amounts to ethnic cleansing and a land grab. But they still do not know
whether their homes are to be destroyed or handed over to settlers.
Al-Haram's narrow, crooked route, lined with buildings reminiscent of
biblical times, is the scene of a spewing of hate every week as hardline
Jewish settlers make their way to prayer at one of the most controversial
religious sites on the West Bank.
Its walls bear testimony to Jewish claims on the street with Stars of David
and exhortations to kill all Arabs sprayed on Palestinian property.
For years, Mr Sharon has argued for Al-Haram street to be seized and turned
into a security corridor linking Kiryat Arba settlement's 6,000 residents
with a smaller Jewish enclave of just 400 settlers in the heart of Hebron.
They live in the midst of - but generally separated from - 130,000
Palestinians.
Mr Sharon's opportunity came three weeks ago when Islamic Jihad slaughtered
12 Israeli soldiers and security personnel escorting settlers on their way
to pray at the Tomb of the Patriarchs.
As the tanks rolled into Hebron, the prime minister told army commanders
that Israel had to "take advantage of the opportunity" to drive Palestinians
from Al-Haram street.
Yesterday, the military took the first step with an order in the name of
General Moshe Kaplinski, commander of the central region of the occupied
territories.
It lists 60 buildings and pieces of land the army will seize on Al-Haram
street because of "military necessity".
The order says an accompanying map marks in blue the buildings to be taken
and the land to be confiscated in red - except that the map taped to every
almost every building in the street is a black and white photocopy.
The military order comes in three parts: Two pieces of paper list the
seizure, the map shows what is to be taken and a fourth piece of paper shows
each building numbered in large red figures, up to a total of 103 buildings.
Yet it gives enough away to show that the army intends to take ownership of
the full 700-metre length between the two Jewish settlements and the Tomb of
the Patriarchs.
All of this is justified by Gen Kaplinski's "belief that it is essential for
military necessity, and due to the security situation" and because of the
"need to prevent terrorist operations and protect citizens and [Israeli]
soldiers".
The notice also gives "an order to destroy buildings for military purposes".
It says compensation will be offered.
About 15 buildings targeted for immediate demolition are abandoned or
falling down. But about half the street is still occupied by 30 or so
families, and the Palestinians living there believe the order effectively
confiscates their property and they will be forced out later if not sooner.
They question what military purpose is served by bulldozing empty buildings
unless it is a prelude to the destruction of occupied properties to create a
wide corridor between the two Jewish areas, in line with Mr Sharon's
wishes - or the first step towards turning Al-Haram into a bridging Jewish
settlement with new homes.
Juma Jaber's flat opens on to Al-Haram street and falls within the markings
on the map of properties for confiscation.
"They haven't given us individual notice. They came to all the houses, asked
our names, how many people live here, our identity numbers. Then they put up
this order which is difficult to understand. From what I can see they are
taking over the whole street," he said.
"Even if we don't have to leave immediately, I think they want to give the
street to the settlers, bring them in to live here. We'll be suffocated but
that's the Israeli plan. They want to drive us out."
Israel's tourism minister, Yitzhak Levy, has ordered his ministry to draw up
plans for a "promenade" from Kiryat Arba to the Tomb of the Patriarchs,
which are believed to include "road widening" that would include destruction
of homes.
The military is evidently embarrassed by the order. An Israeli army
spokesman at first denied it existed. "It's a rumour. It's not true," he
said.
Presented with physical evidence, the spokesman said it may be a fraud.
Asked why, if that is the case, soldiers patrolling the street had not
removed copies attached to every wall - including a small group of officers
who walked the length of Al-Haram yesterday, deep in discussion as they
pointed out individual buildings - he promised to check on its authenticity.
He later confirmed the order was issued by Gen Kaplinski but could not
comment further.
Mr Sharon argued for the two Jewish settlements to be joined by a corridor
through Al-Haram as far back as 1996. He has also said that the number of
Arabs in the Israeli-controlled heart of Hebron could be reduced from 20,000
to a tenth of that number.
Among those facing expulsion is 91-year-old Radeb Jaber who has lived on the
street his entire life. "I have lived under the Turks. I have lived under
the British. I have lived under the Jordanians. These are the worst," he
said. "They keep us under curfew. Every time they see us they curse us. Dog,
bastard, they call us."
In such circumstances, it is difficult to imagine the settlers living side
by side with Palestinians on Al-Haram street.
Mr Jaber's son Rahin, 65 agrees: "It's impossible to live with the settlers.
It's like putting a poisonous snake on your chest. Either they kill us or we
kill them. There's no in-between."
David Schwartz
"Karl" <karlpe...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:3dee2a79$0$24223$afc3...@news.easynet.co.uk...
> "Jeremy Merrill" <mudf...@san.rr.com> wrote in message
> news:NMVG9.79900$%k2.20...@twister.socal.rr.com...
> > Karl./...read this post I just put up for him...I think you'll be
> interested
> > in his answers to my assertions.
>
> I'm trying to blank the guy from my mind. He referred to me as an
> anti-semite (the one and only time in my life I've been called that) and I
> don't know whether to laugh or cry. I read daily the horrors carried out
by
> Israel and it affects me because I've been brought up (like most Jews) to
> revere Israel as the homeland. So many Jews like David (including some
> members of my own family) can't bring themselves to read about or
> acknowledge what Israel is doing - if Israel nuked every other country in
> the Middle East they'd find an excuse.
Observe the obligatory opening paragraph where the anti-Semite claims to
have feelings for the Israel. One can almost hear the violins playing.
But next, the worm begins to turn....
>
> Then I read articles like this one yesterday and wonder how anyone is
> surprised when Palestinians turn to terrorism.
... posting an article that reveals the obvious sympathies of the
journalist. Yet, the article accurately reflects the feelings of all
anti-Semites, especially Arabs. The anti-Semite cannot see the real issue:
Arabs do not want to live with Jews. This is particularly ironic given that
the anti-Semite claims to see all people as equal, to embrace diversity,
multiculturalism, and stuff like that there.
As the article's own numbers show, a community of 400 religious Jews is
simply unacceptable to 130,00 Arabs. The Jews must be killed, and, of
course, Palies complain when Israelis take steps to protect themselves. The
anti-Semite fully understands killing Israelis and religious Jews and so is
outraged when Israel strikes back in the only logical way: separate the two
people.
This Arab desire to rid themselves of Jews is not, however, a unique
situation in Hebron. In no Arab country are there thriving Jewish
communities. The Jews are simply driven out. Compare this to Jewish
communities, or the state of Israel, where there are no such efforts to
drive out peaceful Arabs. The anti-Semite, however, hopes there can be one
more Arab state, so there can be one less place in the world for Jews.
The anti-Semite fails to see that Israel may end up taking the exact same
steps to expel all Palies from anywhere Israelis live. The anti-Semite
fails to see that Palies will never be secure as long as their stronger
neighbor, Israel, is not secure, that as long as Palies do not tolerate
Israelis, that Palies are potentially at risk for losing what land they have
now.
Karl
highest quality papers, not a pro-Palestinian mouthpiece.
On second thoughts, tell him to go fuck himself.
"David Schwartz" <david.s...@attbi.com> wrote in message
news:TmqH9.234566$1O2.15216@sccrnsc04...
Jeremy Merrill
here.
FUNDAMENTALIST LOGIC
By Amira Hass
[Ha'aretz - 4 December 2002]: Kiryat Arba's settlers, with active
assistance from the Civil Administration and the IDF, are keeping their
promise to create "territorial contiguity between Kiryat Arba and the Tomb
of the Patriarchs." Less than three weeks after the lethal Islamic Jihad
ambush killed 12 soldiers and Israeli security officers, the appropriate
Zionist response is taking concrete shape in the form of mobile homes and
demolition orders - as everyone knew it would. Many Palestinian families no
longer live along the route that connects the settlement to the old city of
Hebron. They were driven away by fear of the settlers.
Half-destroyed houses that are hundreds of years old, beautiful
architectural pearls that the Palestinians were unable to renovate and
preserve because they had no civilian control over the area of the old city,
will be destroyed. Presumably, some less ancient buildings will also be
destroyed. But that's the kind of information that evaporates quickly in a
country that is so busy, on the one hand burying its dead from terror
attacks, and on the other hand busy with primaries elections in the parties
from the left to the right.
The continuation of Prime Minister Ariel Sharon's settlement plans in the
occupied territories with the help of his loyal army of settlers is not
"news" - not even when one of those settler leaders, Kiryat Arba Mayor Zvi
Katzover, volunteers the geographic-demographic-military vision behind his
determination and persistence and that of his comrades.
"When the big war begins and the Arabs run away from here, sooner or later,
we'll be back in the houses," he told reporter Benny Liss of Channel One on
November 27. It was a very short sentence, but it said a lot. Several things
can be understood from it. "The big war," apparently compared to the "little
war" we've known in recent years, is no doubt a regional war, or perhaps a
war that will be described as the struggle between light and darkness, Islam
against Christianity and Judaism, or "between civilizations" - dark Islam
versus the enlightened West. It's an event that will no doubt come and
there's no reason to try to prevent. In fact, maybe it would be best if it
happened (in fact, it should be encouraged) when the results are positive,
of course, because "the Arabs will run away."
It's also difficult to believe that Katzover is referring to "only" the
Palestinians of Hebron. The "big war," after all, won't sweep only over the
ancient town of the patriarchs. According to that logic, it's not only in
Hebron but throughout the entire country that foreigners - i.e., non-Jews -
are in possession of Jewish land. This catastrophic logic fits neatly with
the religious-nationalist beliefs that have guided the settler pioneers for
the last 35 years, a faith in the divine promise of the land to the people
of Israel. It's a combination of faith in the inevitable, divine
intervention on behalf of the Jewish people, according to the
religious-fundamentalist interpretations, with belief in the duty of the
individuals to act in order to hasten the arrival of the happy ending.
That catastrophic logic does not guide only the religious-political Jewish
fundamentalists. It's exactly the same religious-deterministic logic that
over and over refills the reservoirs of Palestinian suicide bombers, those
who prepare the bombs and throw the Molotov cocktails at the tanks rolling
through Palestinian cities, people whose chances of getting killed are much
greater than their chances of penetrating the armor of the tanks.
The desire to take revenge may be the motive for each individual who takes
the place of another Palestinian captured, interrogated, killed, or wounded
in IDF operations. The lack of a desire to live a life that's not worth
living might unite a much larger public than those who have already decided
to commit a suicide bombing. But the Islamic organizations, which exploit
that, operate with their own terminal vision.
They also believe the Land was given through a divine promise, but to
Muslims. They also bring forth scripture to prove their point. They also are
convinced the divine promise will come true sooner or later, and that "God
helps those who help themselves," meaning there should be no waiting around
doing nothing until the happy ending. Nowadays, it's not only in Hamas and
Islamic Jihad circles that one can hear young people explaining that the day
will come and the entire Islamic world will enlist in the cause of war
against Israel, and it will be a "big war," terrible and all-encompassing -
but it will ultimately "liberate" the promised land. Such religious rhetoric
can now be heard from Fatah youths, who are becoming ever more Orthodox as
their lives on earth offer them less and less.
The catastrophic Palestinian-Islamic logic grows stronger the more
Palestinian society is weakened and vanquished by the ongoing Israeli
military operations. And the catastrophic Jewish thinking is, on the one
hand, based on a sense of personal hopelessness as Sisyphean military
operations fail to fulfill the promise "to eradicate the terror," and on the
other hand on a powerful army that increasingly sets the civil agenda, when
the borders between the religious and nationalist faith of its ever more
outspoken commanders are being continuously erased
"David Schwartz" <davi...@shaw.ca> wrote in message
news:SbWF9.76401$ea.13...@news2.calgary.shaw.ca...
Jeremy Merrill
David, you're missing my point. When did it become ok for an ADULT with a
high-powered gun to KILL CHILDREN for throwing rocks? If your neighborhood
had just been taken over by armed "soldiers" of a nation that oppresses you
and your people, you would want to fight back right? If your home was then
bulldozed to make way for the homes of those same oppressors, you'd want to
fight back right? Now imagine if you were between the ages of 6 and 15.
Your best bet for fighting back, albeit not the most effective method, would
be throwing rocks at the racist fucks that did that horrible stuff to you
and your people.
Also, the Palestinian people DID try to sit down for peace talks a few years
back, but Israeli leadership would not budge on the land contentions. All
the Palestinian people want is freedom. They tried with words, but with no
"knife to their throats", the Israelis won't deal. The Palestinians moved
on to step two.
Now think about who holds the power in these two situations. In both
situations, the Israelis have the power. They have the guns and body armor
for their "soldiers". They have the law on their side. They have the
ability to destroy an entire neighborhood for their own greedy, racist gain.
In any given situation, the person with the most power has the ability to
both start and stop conflict. So far the Israelis don't seem to want to
stop.
> Hmm, they must enjoy being killed by Israeli soldiers. Seems pretty
simple
> when you look at it that way doesn't it?
>
Not really...see my last comment.
Jeremy Merrill
> Submitted for your consideration, The Anatomy of a Anti-Semitic Post.
>
>
> "Karl" <karlpe...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:3dee2a79$0$24223$afc3...@news.easynet.co.uk...
> > "Jeremy Merrill" <mudf...@san.rr.com> wrote in message
> > news:NMVG9.79900$%k2.20...@twister.socal.rr.com...
> > > Karl./...read this post I just put up for him...I think you'll be
> > interested
> > > in his answers to my assertions.
> >
> > I'm trying to blank the guy from my mind. He referred to me as an
> > anti-semite (the one and only time in my life I've been called that) and
I
> > don't know whether to laugh or cry. I read daily the horrors carried out
> by
> > Israel and it affects me because I've been brought up (like most Jews)
to
> > revere Israel as the homeland. So many Jews like David (including some
> > members of my own family) can't bring themselves to read about or
> > acknowledge what Israel is doing - if Israel nuked every other country
in
> > the Middle East they'd find an excuse.
>
> Observe the obligatory opening paragraph where the anti-Semite claims to
> have feelings for the Israel. One can almost hear the violins playing.
>
Well he's correct David. He's not playing up for sympathy, he's owning up
to everything that has happened, and why he doesn't enjoy arguing with you
anymore. You see nothing but your own racist goals and ideals.
> But next, the worm begins to turn....
>
> >
> > Then I read articles like this one yesterday and wonder how anyone is
> > surprised when Palestinians turn to terrorism.
>
> ... posting an article that reveals the obvious sympathies of the
> journalist. Yet, the article accurately reflects the feelings of all
> anti-Semites, especially Arabs. The anti-Semite cannot see the real
issue:
> Arabs do not want to live with Jews.
Wasn't the reason for Israel's creation in the first place the fact that no
one in the world seemed to want to live with the Jews? They faced
persecution everywhere they turned and so after WWII they were given Israel.
That was a great plan honestly, because it ended the mass persecution of
Jewish people around the world. Unfortunately, once there, the Jews decided
they had taken enough crap from the rest of the world, and they decided to
persecute the Arabic and Muslim people of the region.
It reminds me of the abused child who grows to be a parent that ends up
abusing his own children because it's all he knew. He sure as hell hated
being abused in the first place, but then he turned around and did the same
shit to someone else. Israel needs counseling!
>This is particularly ironic given that
> the anti-Semite claims to see all people as equal, to embrace diversity,
> multiculturalism, and stuff like that there.
>
And so far every post I have read by Karl has been pretty damn tolerant of
everyone. Since when does he not embrace multi-culturalism?
> As the article's own numbers show, a community of 400 religious Jews is
> simply unacceptable to 130,00 Arabs.
David, you're forgetting the FACT that these 400 Jews are settling in on
land that BELONGED to the Palestinians until it was STOLEN by the Israeli
government! I'd be pretty fucking pissed off if the government said one
day, "Forget that you've been paying your mortgage or that the
house was passed down over generations in your family...someone committed
a crime about a block away so we're taking your place and bulldozing
it." "Next we're going to build a nice house for one of your city
council members right where your house used to stand!"
I'd be wanting to throw rocks at them, beat the shit out of them, or maybe
even kill them. Especially since in this case the legal system isn't set up
to keep shit like that from happening. Here in America you could sue the
shit out of them for something like that. In Israel, a Palestinian can't do
a damn thing. What a shame!
>The Jews must be killed, and, of
> course, Palies complain when Israelis take steps to protect themselves.
Like gunning down 95 year old women eh? Funny David, you never replied to
my post about that did you? Lemme know what you think.
>The
> anti-Semite fully understands killing Israelis and religious Jews and so
is
> outraged when Israel strikes back in the only logical way: separate the
two
> people.
>
Ahhh...finally the APARTHEID that is occurring right now in Israel is
admitted to. Welcome to the new South Africa!
> This Arab desire to rid themselves of Jews is not, however, a unique
> situation in Hebron. In no Arab country are there thriving Jewish
> communities. The Jews are simply driven out. Compare this to Jewish
> communities, or the state of Israel, where there are no such efforts to
> drive out peaceful Arabs.
Would the Jewish neighborhoods have welcomed a NAZI into the community
during WWII, or even afterwards? Nope. To expect the Arabs to do the
modern-day equivalent is assinine! Who in their right minds would ask a
member of the group that is oppressing their people to come live in the
neighborhood?! Moron.
>The anti-Semite, however, hopes there can be one
> more Arab state, so there can be one less place in the world for Jews.
>
Oh boo-fucking-hoo! So this really and truly boils down to the whole "we
want our OWN place" mentality? I should have known it was for selfish
reasons rather than common sense. Would it be right for White Americans to
say, "Hey! We want OUR own place too!" and demand a section of the US be
put aside for their use only? That would be outright racism, just as what
is happening today in Israel.
> The anti-Semite fails to see that Israel may end up taking the exact same
> steps to expel all Palies from anywhere Israelis live. The anti-Semite
> fails to see that Palies will never be secure as long as their stronger
> neighbor, Israel, is not secure, that as long as Palies do not tolerate
> Israelis, that Palies are potentially at risk for losing what land they
have
> now.
>
Well if that is the mindset, then the Palestinians should go all-out and
declare full scale war on Israel. The Israeli "soldiers" have already done
so against the Palestinians. This must mean that the only hope for
Palestinians regaining their land is to completely destroy Israel. They
would be happy just getting their land back, but Israel wants it the hard
way it seems. Pitiful. Sad for BOTH sides that it has to be like that.
Once again though, the one with the power in any given situation has total
control over stopping AND starting conflict. Keep that in mind.
-- J
Jeremy Merrill
to his last post. David is a moron, plain and simple. You can lead a
horse's-ass to water but you can't make it suck any up!
-- J
"Karl" <karlpe...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:3dee337e$0$14017$afc3...@news.easynet.co.uk...
David Schwartz
Why do you think I am missing your point? I have addressed it several times
in this thread. I will address it again for you here:
It is OK to kill children who represent a clear and present danger.
Or, maybe the Israeli soldiers just can't tell the ages of the rock
throwers. You don't say there is anything wrong about killing adults who
throw rocks at you. Maybe all the body armor prevents the soldiers from
seeing their assailants clearly enough to tell their age. Cut them a little
slack man. These soldiers are just army reservists called up to quell the
Palie uprising, and would probably rather be back in their own homes,
working at their regular jobs. The palie uprising is probably a real pain
in the ass to these soldiers. Try to put yourself in their shoes. Try to
have a little understanding. I think you should go to Israel and volunteer
to be in the army, to see what it is like, before you speak with such
authority.
David Schwartz
The Arabs started it. The day after Israel was founded, its Arab neighbors
attacked, and they've been attacking ever since. Israel is only fighting
back.
David Schwartz
your ideas are not good.
"Jeremy Merrill" <mudf...@san.rr.com> wrote in message
news:VPzH9.72755$2z1.24...@twister.socal.rr.com...
Jeremy Merrill
In what way is a stone thrown by a child a "clear and present danger" to a
grown man in body armor? Do you honestly expect ANYONE to believe that?
> Or, maybe the Israeli soldiers just can't tell the ages of the rock
> throwers. You don't say there is anything wrong about killing adults who
> throw rocks at you.
I shouldn't HAVE to. Anyone throwing a rock at an adult who is wearing body
armor does not present an immediate threat. Rather than gunning them down
with machine guns, why not use non-lethal forms of weapons such as bean-bag
rounds, rubber bullets, tear gas, etc?
>Maybe all the body armor prevents the soldiers from
> seeing their assailants clearly enough to tell their age. Cut them a
little
> slack man.
Why should I?
>These soldiers are just army reservists called up to quell the
> Palie uprising, and would probably rather be back in their own homes,
> working at their regular jobs. The palie uprising is probably a real pain
> in the ass to these soldiers. Try to put yourself in their shoes. Try to
> have a little understanding.
You say this at the same time as saying the Palestinian people have no right
to be angry about what is going on?!? You're the biggest fucking hypocrite
I've ever had the displeasure of speaking with. A little understanding? I
have more of an understanding of where the Palestinians are coming from than
of where the Israelis are coming from.
>I think you should go to Israel and volunteer
> to be in the army, to see what it is like, before you speak with such
> authority.
Are you sure they'd allow me to serve? One, I'm not Jewish. Two, I'm not a
child-killer. Three, I don't believe oppression is something to fight for.
Four, I don't like to shoot 95 year old women riding in taxis.
By the way, you have yet to address most of what I posted last time. I'm
still waiting.
-- J
Jeremy Merrill
the table except for your own fucked up prejudices! Get past what you have
been "taught", and go with what is right. You might learn something!
-- J
"David Schwartz" <david.s...@attbi.com> wrote in message
news:ZeAH9.237572$%m4.8...@rwcrnsc52.ops.asp.att.net...
Jeremy Merrill
You STILL haven't addressed the fact that Israeli "soldiers" (aka murderers)
gunned down a 95 year old woman. How many posts ago was that? You only
comment on things you THINK you know something about, but you're too afraid
that if you check out the facts for yourself you might actually have to
admit to yourself that you were wrong this entire time. Look past what you
have been "programmed" to think, and start looking at the bare facts, devoid
of prejudice. Then tell me what you think. I know it will be hard but TRY.
-- J
"David Schwartz" <david.s...@attbi.com> wrote in message
news:ncAH9.239643$P31.95498@rwcrnsc53...
David Schwartz
You have to let go of the body armor thing. Israeli soldiers do not wear
full body armor. You can seriously injure someone with a rock. In fact,
you can kill someone with rocks.
David Schwartz
> Then post some ideas that ARE good David. You have yet to bring anything
to
> the table except for your own fucked up prejudices! Get past what you
have
> been "taught", and go with what is right. You might learn something!
You ignored the excellent points I made. If you want to see some good
ideas, simply reread my posts in this thread.
David Schwartz
children.
"Jeremy Merrill" <mudf...@san.rr.com> wrote in message
news:S7CH9.73185$2z1.24...@twister.socal.rr.com...
Karl
> David...is it warm down there in the sand where you've buried your head?
> You STILL haven't addressed the fact that Israeli "soldiers" (aka
murderers)
> gunned down a 95 year old woman.
They were probably scared of the 10 year olds with the heavy, dangerous
stones and figured she was a softer target.
David Schwartz
If Jeremy and Hitlerboy are all done, then this thead is over!
"David Schwartz" <davi...@shaw.ca> wrote in message
news:ZQBF9.1046$Qr.5...@news3.calgary.shaw.ca...
>
> "Jeremy Merrill" <mudf...@san.rr.com> wrote in message
> news:dzkF9.48436$%k2.15...@twister.socal.rr.com...
> >
> > "David Schwartz" <davi...@shaw.ca> wrote in message
> > news:C%jF9.121698$ka.28...@news1.calgary.shaw.ca...
> > >
> > > "Jeremy Merrill" <mudf...@san.rr.com> wrote in message
> > > news:pEfF9.44677$%k2.15...@twister.socal.rr.com...
> > > > Oh god will you give up with the whole "you hit me so I hit you"
> > > attitude?!?
> > >
> > > no
> >
> > Why? (I'll address this later)
> >
> > >
> > > > Fuck!
> > >
> > > indeed
> > >
> > > >
> > > > That is the problem with the majority of Middle Eastern relations,
in
> > that
> > > > their feuds go back so far they can't even remember who started it
> > > anymore.
> > > > People there bitch and moan about the killing and oppression, yet
the
> > ones
> > > > with the power to stop it do ABSOLUTELY NOTHING about it except
> continue
> > > the
> > > > violence! I'm so fucking sick of the Israeli government retaliating
> > > against
> > > > little kids who throw rocks by using machine guns! Grow the fuck up
> > > people!
> > >
> > > Yes, everyone else is so stupid, so childish. How do you manage to
keep
> > > your sanity? It must be so difficult for you, to be amonst us lesser
> > > beings. It is a privilege to read your posts.
> >
> > I detect a note of sarcasm, yet somehow it also rings true.
> >
> > >
> > > >
> > > > And you David, you sit here and talk about how Palestinians want
Jews
> > > > dead...SHIT...I wonder why?!? When they live like second class
> citizens
> > > in
> > > > their own lands...what's there to hate?!? Get off your high horse
and
> > > > realize that there is a very simple solution to the entire mess.
> > >
> > > I think there is a simple solution, but it is probably not the same
> simple
> > > solution that you are thinking of.
> > >
> > > >
> > > > This solution would most likely get the Palestinians off the back of
> the
> > > > Israelis, placate Bin Laden for a while (until he dies of his liver
> > > disease
> > > > or whatever it is), and get Saddam to shut the fuck up.
> > >
> > > What? It also doesn't cure cancer?
> > >
> > > >
> > > > The solution is to give the Palestinians back enough of their land
> that
> > > they
> > > > can have a self-sustaining nation, under their own laws, without
> Israeli
> >
> > > > oppression. Sure, the Israeli government would have to give back
> land.
> > > Of
> > > > course some of the settlers would be upset, but so fucking what?
> > > Government
> > > > is in place to rule in the best interest of the people, and if
> stopping
> > > the
> > > > slaughter of innocent people means giving back a few hundred miles
of
> > > > desert, then so-be-it!
> > >
> > > Your solution is not simple, it is simple minded. There is no
evidence
> > that
> > > giving Palies land will stop their desire to destroy Israel. My
simple
> > > solution first calls for the Palies to stop killing Israelis. Once
> Palies
> > > do that, everything else will fall into place for them, they may even
> get
> > a
> > > nation. IOW, Jeremy, Israel ought to not give anything until they
first
> > get
> > > peace. Now, you have to agree, that is simple. Even an idiot can
> > > understand that.
> >
> > What other bargaining chip do they have? You tell me David. What
> > power-play can they pull? Can they enforce an embargo? NO. Can they
> > withhold trade relations, forcing Israel to it's knees? NO. Can they
sit
> in
> > doorways and effect change in non-violent ways? NO.
> >
> > The Palestinians have TRIED sitting down at the table, but without some
> form
> > of knife at their throats the Israeli government does not seem to take
> them
> > seriously. It is sad as hell, but it seems as though the current
violence
> > is the only way the Palestinians could get the world's attention, and
yet
> > they still are not getting results.
> >
> > >
> > > >
> > > > Both nations could coexist side by side if the Israelis would just
sit
> > > down
> > > > at the table for some REALISTIC peace talks instead of stonewalling
> the
> > > > Palestinians at every chance.
> > >
> > > Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
> >
> > Maybe that's part of the problem, you sleep through the important stuff!
> >
> > >
> > > >
> > > > Damn it felt great to get that all off my chest. I just get sick of
> > > hearing
> > > > the same fucking arguement again and again as to why the Israelis
are
> > > > morally right to do what they are doing. It's bullshit, and the
> > > individuals
> > > > who knowingly oppress the Palestinian people will hopefully enjoy a
> long
> > > > stay in hell when they die.
> > > >
> > > > -- J (and NO, I'm NOT anti-semitic DAMMIT!)
> > > > See! I already know exactly what you're going to accuse
me
> > of!
> > >
> > > You are wrong. I have never called you anti-Semitic and since you've
> said
> > > nothing in this post that you have not already said before, I am not
> going
> > > to call you anti-Semitic now. I point this out, not so much to show
> that
> > I
> > > am some sort of even-handed dude, but rather because I want to show
you
> > that
> > > you can be wrong. You are wrong about me calling you an anti-Semite
and
> > you
> > > are wrong about other things you have said in this post.
> >
> > Well in this one instance then, I will retract my statement. Once a
> person
> > gets used to being called an anti-semite on the mere fact that he
doesn't
> > agree with the Israeli government, it get's old quick. I have been
called
> > this hateful name, and the sole reason is my views on the oppression of
> > Palestinians. So far though, not one single hard-line Jew or
> > Israel-supporter has voiced a change of opinion based on my arguments.
>
> That's because your ideas are stupid. That makes sense, doesn't it? If
> your ideas are stupid, no one is going to buy into them, Right?
> history that makes you think the Palie strategy is going to succeed?
>
> >
> > There are Jewish people out there that feel the way I do, and to them I
> > offer gratitude. They have to face accusations of being traitors to
their
> > own religion, yet they still fight for what is right.
> >
> > Thank you,
> >
> > -- J
> >
> > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > "David Schwartz" <davi...@shaw.ca> wrote in message
> > > > news:2LeF9.119708$ka.28...@news1.calgary.shaw.ca...
> > > > >
> > > > > "Karl" <karlpe...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> > > > > news:3de514af$0$28089$afc3...@news.easynet.co.uk...
> > > > > > "David Schwartz" <davi...@shaw.ca> wrote in message
> > > > > > news:C78F9.61918$ea.10...@news2.calgary.shaw.ca...
> > > > > > > I have no problem with you having compassion for Palies, but,
> you
> > > show
> > > > > no
> > > > > > > such compassion for Israel.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I have compassion for *Israelis*, who include a number of my
> > > relatives.
> > > > > I've
> > > > > > never expressed the slightest support for Palestinian terrorist
> > > groups.
> > > > I
> > > > > > totally oppose them, what they stand for, and everything they
do.
> > > > >
> > > > > Earlier in this thread, you said (in reference to the Palestinian
> > > killing
> > > > of
> > > > > Israeli children), and I quote...
> > > > >
> > > > > "In order to understand *why* this happened, let's not forget that
> for
> > > > every
> > > > > Israeli, 4 Palestinians have been killed, and many more have been
> > > > tortured.
> > > > > 64 ignored resolutions against Israel are the core of this
problem."
> > > > >
> > > > > Hmmm you understand why Palie terrorist kill Israeli children, and
> you
> > > > > sympathize with them.
> > > > >
> > > > > You also say (later in this post) that it is wrong for Israelis to
> > hunt
> > > > down
> > > > > and kill the terrorists.
> > > > >
> > > > > OK, so you understand them, you sympathisze with the, and you
> protect
> > > > them.
> > > > > That is fine for an anti-Semite, but how to you square this with
> your
> > > > claim
> > > > > that you've "never expressed the slightest support for Palestinian
> > > > terrorist
> > > > > groups"?????????????????
> > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > The Palestinian extremists kill large numbers of Israeli
civilians
> > and
> > > > > > soldiers. That's wrong.
> > > > >
> > > > > The only thing wrong about your statement is the word "extremist",
> > leave
> > > > out
> > > > > that word and make the word Palestinian plural and you have it
> right.
> > > > >
> > > > > > The Israeli army kills even larger numbers of Palestinian
> civilians
> > > and
> > > > > > fighters. That's wrong.
> > > > >
> > > > > Why is that wrong? Palies kill and support the killing of
Israelis.
> > > > Israel
> > > > > has to strike back. Otherwise, Palies will have no reason to stop
> > > > killing.
> > > > > You see Herr Karl, that's how it works. Israel cannot allow
> > terrorists
> > > to
> > > > > go unpunished and it cannot reward terror by giving into their
> > demands.
> > > > As
> > > > > long as Palies try to achieve their goals through murder and
terror,
> > > they
> > > > > will never achieve those goals.
> > > > >
> > > > > > Israel is deliberately settling European immigrants on
Palestinian
> > > > land -
> > > > > > this tactic is designed to destroy the entire Palestinian
people.
> > > That's
> > > > > > more than wrong - it is a crime against humanity.
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Inside Israel live many Arabs, who are citizens of Israel. If or
> when
> > > the
> > > > > Palies ever get their own country, it looks like there are going
to
> be
> > > > some
> > > > > Jews living there, eh? Is that OK with you? Or, do you insist
that
> > any
> > > > > Palie country be Jew free? Since you are an anti-Semite, it is OK
> for
> > > you
> > > > > to say YES.
> > > > >
> > > > > But you know, even if we snapped our fingers right now and made
all
> > the
> > > > > Palies in the west bank and gaza go away, there would still be
> Palies,
> > > > they
> > > > > would be the Arabs who stayed in Israel and never fled. They are
> > > > > Palestinians, too, you know. Only those Palies do not blow
> themselves
> > > up,
> > > > > and do not have exploding birth rates.
> > > > >
> > > > > > > > http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/default.stm
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Thanks, but I don't need to go any further than your posts for
> the
> > > > palie
> > > > > > > point of view.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > So even the BBC, renowned globally for impartial, high-quality
> > > > reporting,
> > > > > is
> > > > > > anti-semitic because you don't like what they write. You give a
> bad
> > > name
> > > > > to
> > > > > > Jews.
> > > > >
> > > > > At least, I am not their enemy. Since you are an anti-Semite, it
> > would
> > > be
> > > > > best if you did not speak for Jews.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>