Hiring: Learnemy is looking for a developer!

[elisha]

Hey guys!

Before I start, here's a picture of a kitty
http://www.learnemy.com/images/cute-kitty.jpg

Good. Now that I have your attention,

Learnemy is hiring one rails developer and here are 6 reasons why you
should join:
- Learnemy has a purpose for the society
http://www.blog.learnemy.com/kpi/ . I have a big vision.
- You will be treated with respect, and like an adult. No monkeys
around here.
- You get to make key decisions in the startup.
- You get a competitive salary.
- Flexible hours. I respect the maker’s schedule.
- You get to operate like a founder but enjoy the stability of an
employee.

If you are reading this, you probably want to see details of the job.
They are here: http://www.blog.learnemy.com/come-work-on-learnemy/

PS: Kitty dies if there are no replies.

[Sau Sheong Chang]

Aw. That's a real cute kitty.

Good luck in ur search!

On Feb 9, 9:57 pm, elisha <elisha....@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hey guys!
>

> Before I start, here's a picture of a kittyhttp://www.learnemy.com/images/cute-kitty.jpg

>
> Good. Now that I have your attention,
>
> Learnemy is hiring one rails developer and here are 6 reasons why you
> should join:

> - Learnemy has a purpose for the societyhttp://www.blog.learnemy.com/kpi/. I have a big vision.

[elisha]

Thanks! :D

Anyone from HP labs sick of corporate life already? Intro them this
way!

[Sau Sheong Chang]

Er nope. Hey! Dun poach my people ok :P

[elisha]

But hp labs took so many rails ppl! save some for the starups leh.

muahaha.

[Jason Ong]

@elisha everybody looks to the Code Father. that's why. :P

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[Jeffrey 'jf' Lim]

On Thu, Feb 9, 2012 at 10:15 PM, elisha <elish...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Thanks! :D
>
> Anyone from HP labs sick of corporate life already? Intro them this
> way!
>

HP labs != corporate life!

heh,
-jf

--
http://richard.wilkinson.fr/?tag=fon SUCKS!!!

"Every nonfree program has a lord, a master --
and if you use the program, he is your master."
--Richard Stallman

"It's so hard to write a graphics driver that open-sourcing it would not help."
-- Andrew Fear, Software Product Manager, NVIDIA Corporation
http://kerneltrap.org/node/7228

[Khang Toh]

Here's a list of people you can poach =)

http://www.hpl.hp.com/people/index-loc.html#Singapore

[Sau Sheong Chang]

Oy!!

[Subh]

Elisha,

As mentioned hire a really smart fresh graduate having knowledge of at least basics of HTML / JavaScript / CSS. 

Then buy coffee to Sau Sheong and Jason to teach ruby to the guy. :-) Any smart grad can pick up ruby with no-time. 

That's the best option. Most of the experienced RoR folks are taken by Sau Sheong already. 

Remaining are either freelancing or have plans to start their own start-ups. That's the story for any language Ruby or Php or Python.

Few of the Polytechnic interns I have worked with are really good. They genuinely put effort to learn. 

- Subh

Oy!!

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Ruby & iOS Evangelist, Innovator

Blog : http://subhb.org

[Jason Ong]

There you go. Subh can help ya recruit smart polymers.

Cheers,
Jason

----
web: http://bit.ly/jasonong

[elisha]

@subh, definitely! My current problem is not who to choose but getting
the people to apply in the first place.
Could you do an intro to the poly interns you've worked with?

@Khang toh, +100 karma points to you. :D

On Feb 10, 4:41 pm, Jason Ong <velve...@gmail.com> wrote:
> There you go. Subh can help ya recruit smart polymers.
>
> Cheers,
> Jason
>
> ----
> web:http://bit.ly/jasonong
>

> On 10 Feb 2012 16:35, "Subh" <s...@subhb.org> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > Elisha,
>
> > As mentioned hire a really smart fresh graduate having knowledge of at
> > least basics of HTML / JavaScript / CSS.
>
> > Then buy coffee to Sau Sheong and Jason to teach ruby to the guy. :-) Any
> > smart grad can pick up ruby with no-time.
>
> > That's the best option. Most of the experienced RoR folks are taken by Sau
> > Sheong already.
> > Remaining are either freelancing or have plans to start their own
> > start-ups. That's the story for any language Ruby or Php or Python.
>
> > Few of the Polytechnic interns I have worked with are really good. They
> > genuinely put effort to learn.
>
> > - Subh
>

[Tamas Herman]

On Friday, February 10, 2012 at 1:19 PM, Khang Toh wrote:
> Here's a list of people you can poach =)
> http://www.hpl.hp.com/people/index-loc.html#Singapore

Yan Gu ( http://www.hpl.hp.com/people/chloe_yan_gu ) is listed twice; maybe u can approach one of them -- why would HP need 2 guys w the same name (but the same url)!? weird, isnt it? ;D

--
tom

[Andras Kristof]

Uh, Subh, I could also use a smart fresh grad for viki. Or two...

Rails is not required, but I need some serious JavaScript fu.

I hope I am not too late to the poaching party :)

[Tamas Herman]

elisha, u should run a coder-finder site, not a tutor-student matchmaker one… ;D

--
tom

On Saturday, February 11, 2012 at 4:39 PM, Andras Kristof wrote:

> Uh, Subh, I could also use a smart fresh grad for viki. Or two...
> Rails is not required, but I need some serious JavaScript fu.
> I hope I am not too late to the poaching party :)

> On Feb 11, 2012 2:20 AM, "Tamas Herman" <herma...@gmail.com (mailto:herma...@gmail.com)> wrote:
> > On Friday, February 10, 2012 at 1:19 PM, Khang Toh wrote:
> > > Here's a list of people you can poach =)
> > > http://www.hpl.hp.com/people/index-loc.html#Singapore
> >
> >
> > Yan Gu ( http://www.hpl.hp.com/people/chloe_yan_gu ) is listed twice; maybe u can approach one of them -- why would HP need 2 guys w the same name (but the same url)!? weird, isnt it? ;D
> >
> > --
> > tom
> >
> > --
> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Singapore Ruby Brigade" group.

> > To post to this group, send email to singap...@googlegroups.com (mailto:singap...@googlegroups.com).
> > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to singapore-rb...@googlegroups.com (mailto:singapore-rb%2Bunsu...@googlegroups.com).

> > For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/singapore-rb?hl=en.
>

> --
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[wizcoder]

In my 13 years in software dev I have not met any rails developer
myself. Like php developer they are very rare in Singapore. You might
want to work with those conducting rails course to pick out some
pontentials converts. Most experience developer in Singapore would
have make management in 4-6 years so newbies are your best bet.

[Sau Sheong Chang]

Wow are you serious? You're posting in a Ruby/Rails forum that you've
not met any rails developers?!

And most experienced developers would have made management in 4 - 6
years?!! How did you ever come up with such things? :D

[David Chua]

I have to disagree with you.

On the contrary, I think the ruby/rails community has grown a lot over the past year. 

Just look at the size of last week's SRB meetup. I think as a industry, we've matured quite a bit.

Yes, Rails developers may still be difficult to hire, but PHP developers? 

http://dchua.com | @davidchua | rails :: sysadmin :: linux :: ideas :: for-hire

[Ming Yeow Ng]

agree with ss. where did these comments come from? :/

M

[Keith Bennett]

While we're on the subject, as someone who has remained a developer and avoided becoming a manager for my 25+ years (so far) software development career, I find the use of the word "make" as in "make management" interesting. I've done my best to *avoid* management because I far prefer the creativity and problem solving of coding to the more administrative and political kinds of roles such as management.

I suppose for those who want to climb the corporate ladder, or prefer management type work, it is an accomplishment to "make" management. However, the blanket use of the term, in my opinion, exposes a misunderstanding of software development. If all developers stopped developing after six years, what kind of software would exist in the world? The best there is comes from experienced developers -- if we think of all the languages, tools, frameworks, and operating systems we use, what would they look like without the more experienced developers' contributions? Pretty shabby, I'm sure, and not an infrastructure on which to base a business, government, or other organization.

- Keith

[Aen Tan]

Trolls will be trolls.

[Andy Marks]

And most experienced developers would have made management in 4 - 6
years?!! 

I'm also curious about this statement and what the general opinion on it is.  I'm very new to the Singapore market but  my company is recruiting for developers here, so it helps to understand the market.  Is the general consensus that development is a starting point and/or a stepping stone in a career path that leads to management of some form?  Do developers in Singapore invest in their own career for the long term.  Can/should you be a developer from grad to retirement?  If not, why not?  $$$?  Boredom?  Limits on responsibility/influence?  General expectations?  Family and/or peer pressure?

  

Cheers,
Andy

Andy Marks

Technical Principal

ThoughtWorks Singapore

email: ama...@thoughtworks.bom

mobile: +65 9788 0259

web: www.thoughtworks.com

[Jason Ong]

I see ThoughtWorks has an office in Singapore? http://www.thoughtworks.com/contact-us

[Keith Bennett]

Andy -

I was at a Barcamp in Bangkok a few years ago and facilitated a session on "Software Development in Thailand".  There were Thais and ex-pats in the group.  I was shocked to hear (I'm pretty sure I remember this correctly) that Thai developers who stay in development for more than three years are frowned upon.  This was a major frustration to the ex-pats with software businesses who needed local developer talent.  Is this perhaps a regional cultural issue?

- Keith

[Matthew Rudy Jacobs]

> Is this perhaps a regional cultural issue?

I think it is.
It's definitely a feeling you get in hong kong.

For years developers have been treated as monkeys, churning out code according to a 500 page spec made by someone who doesn't understand technology.
The salaries are crap, and kids in hong kong have to believe that one day they can move out of their parents house.

Things are changing,
But there are still a load of java or php shops
Where developers arent allowed to think,
And have to trudge through decade old code.

For these people, no wonder they want to get out.

[Meng Weng Wong]

A few BarCamps ago Ben Scherrey gave a great talk about the importance of a technical career path. Everything he said then is still true today.

"Making management" can be a way to scale but more often it's Peter Principle. Agile development methodologies blur the line between management and engineering anyway. That trend means that technical careers today can and should blend development, design, and product management in a way that was not possible twenty years ago when specialization was necessary. Today's technologies let us do more with less, and there is little excuse for stagnation.

[Sau Sheong Chang]

Hi,

My experiences are anecdotal but no, I don't see this as a regional
cultural issue. I've worked with and in large enterprises, startups
etc in Singapore, Malaysia, US, France. There are some specific
nuances but generally I don't see that to be a widespread thing.
Certainly for a segment of developers moving to what they perceive to
be the 'moving up the ladder' is the goal, but I don't see that as a
majority. If I take my current team (and in fact most of the previous
teams I managed) getting people OFF the technical path and into a more
'managerial' path can be difficult.

I manage a team of 20+ developers now, ranging from 5 - 17 years of
technical experience, averaging between 8 - 10 years. None of them are
people managers (tech leads yes, actually managing people, no). And I
haven't had much success in persuading them to move tracks. The
management path is tough, very competitive (managers are by definition
fewer than the people who do the actual work, unless the company is
screwed up) and doesn't necessarily pay better. As a developer, if he
earns well enough doing what he does and what he loves to do, has less
headaches which his hard-earned skills are practically useless
(dealing with people), why would he even bother? In HP we have
technical and management tracks and the pay scale is equivalent.

No doubt at a higher level, technical people need to have skills other
than technical ones, but that's not equivalent to managerial skills.
Being able to communicate clearly, being able to speak in public,
being able to convince someone of your point of view, all these are
important skills that are not technical. It doesn't mean that he is no
longer technically competent or must be a people manager.

Anyway that's just my personal experience. I know quite a few people
who has differing experiences which leads me to think that it's
probably not something widespread, either way.

On Feb 12, 10:57 am, Keith Bennett <keithrbenn...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Andy -
>
> I was at a Barcamp in Bangkok a few years ago and facilitated a session on "Software Development in Thailand".  There were Thais and ex-pats in the group.  I was shocked to hear (I'm pretty sure I remember this correctly) that Thai developers who stay in development for more than three years are frowned upon.  This was a major frustration to the ex-pats with software businesses who needed local developer talent.  Is this perhaps a regional cultural issue?
>
> - Keith
>
> On Feb 11, 2012, at 9:41 PM, Andy Marks wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > And most experienced developers would have made management in 4 - 6
> > years?!!
>
> > I'm also curious about this statement and what the general opinion on it is.  I'm very new to the Singapore market but  my company is recruiting for developers here, so it helps to understand the market.  Is the general consensus that development is a starting point and/or a stepping stone in a career path that leads to management of some form?  Do developers in Singapore invest in their own career for the long term.  Can/should you be a developer from grad to retirement?  If not, why not?  $$$?  Boredom?  Limits on responsibility/influence?  General expectations?  Family and/or peer pressure?
>
> > Cheers,
> > Andy
>
> > Andy Marks
> > Technical Principal
> > ThoughtWorks Singapore
> > email: ama...@thoughtworks.bom
> > mobile: +65 9788 0259
> > web:www.thoughtworks.com
>

> > For more options, visit this group athttp://groups.google.com/group/singapore-rb?hl=en.

[Paul Gallagher]

I agree that this is not just a regional cultural issue, Sau Sheong. But I do see an issue here, and it's significance does vary a little between regions.

Given this proposition: *if* you have the ambition to build world-class product, then by definition you need world-class technologists, nurtured within the framework of a viable long-term technical career path.

Then:

• Is this a common enough career option for it to attract up-and-coming talent? I'd say mileage varies: in services-dominated regions like Singapore, it is a particular problem.  
  
• Do companies take this seriously? Again mileage varies: some R&D shops have well established career frameworks, but I fear that too many hope to short-cut the "build a world-class team" stage and jump straight to "deliver world-class product".
  

For product-oriented startups, there may be a clear warning here:

• We need to remember to throw out the "services industry thinking"; developer value is not a function of utilisation and margin %.
  
• And the last thing we want to do is encourage developers to "move up" to other roles before they've even clocked their 10,000 hours to mastery.

MNC's with a strong R&D focus, or the very successful software companies already do technical career planning quite well (I've worked in a corporate research lab that had a technical career ladder all the way up to chief scientist - who could actually be more senior and with better benefits than the CEO, depending on the incumbent).

However, in the "real world"(!), the IT industry is predominantly sales, service and agency focused. i.e. businesses that are either selling/integrating existing products, or selling people/time/projects. There are very different dynamics at work than in R&D/PD:

• For consulting firms and agencies, it is usually the case that the best revenue contributors (the cash cows) are the mid-level technical staff (3-5 years experience). Beyond that, their margin % often drops, and it is also harder to sell full utilisation.
• The pressure to be than just a pure technical contributor ratchets up pretty quickly: you are expected to take on pre-sales, delivery management, and even business development the higher you go
• Despite many of the larger firms operating locally (Oracle, NCS, Accenture, IBM etc) having a focus on technical career development, you learn pretty quickly that it is not the way to earn the big bucks. If you have the aptitude, get into sales. Pre-sales is the best bet if you want to remain largely technical, but also earn more and do less (although my friends in pre-sales would probably argue that last point!)
• The net result is that there's a general expectation that you will grow into other responsibilities pretty early in your career and leave hard-core development behind (for the next batch of grads). It is not just a local problem, but it does vary in degree:
• My own experience is that it does vary from country to country, but not by much. On the whole by the time you get to late 20's/early 30's you better be moving on up or there's trouble!
• And there can be cultural idiosyncrasies in some countries - like older generations who want to judge your "success" by the number of people working for you.
  

It is in places where the services sector dwarfs the product development sector that this becomes the dominant industry practice (i.e. most of the world outside of Mountain View, Redmond, Silicon Valley).

So what's the problem?

Well, if we are in the services/agency business, maybe there isn't one. These are just the facts of life. Perhaps we just need to be as good as our competitors; trying to be significantly better can actually have a negative impact on our bottom line.

*But* if we are really about product development, the last thing we should do is translate this services industry thinking into how to run a startup:

• The value of a developer is no longer a function of utilisation and margin %
• It is all about how they can contribute to building the product
• If we want to build the best product, then at least a good proportion of the developers need to be "the best" (or heading in that direction)
  

In other words, the last thing we want to do is encourage developers to "move up" to other roles before they've even clocked their 10,000 hours to mastery. In fact, we'd ideally want them to stick around a good few years *after* clocking the 10,000 hours in order to derive the most benefit from that experience.

Having put that all in words, I'm wondering if this tendency to "think like an agency" (and value developers accordingly) might be one of the more insidious factors at work. And since our local industry is dominated by service/agency businesses, it is deeply ingrained in the way many of us have learned to operate.

What do you think? Have others seen the same dynamics at work?

[Sau Sheong Chang]

Amazing analysis Paul, clear and insightful. I agree with you, just to
add that things are often not as simple as they look and often more
complex.

On Feb 12, 7:59 pm, Paul Gallagher <gallagher.p...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I agree that this is not just a regional cultural issue, Sau Sheong. But I
> do see an issue here, and it's significance does vary a little between
> regions.
>
> Given this proposition: *if* you have the ambition to build world-class
> product, then by definition you need world-class technologists, nurtured
> within the framework of a viable long-term technical career path.
>
> Then:
>

>    - Is this a common enough career option for it to attract up-and-coming

>    talent? I'd say mileage varies: in services-dominated regions like
>    Singapore, it is a particular problem.

>    - Do companies take this seriously? Again mileage varies: some R&D shops

>    have well established career frameworks, but I fear that too many hope to
>    short-cut the "build a world-class team" stage and jump straight to
>    "deliver world-class product".
>
> For product-oriented startups, there may be a clear warning here:
>

>    - We need to remember to throw out the "services industry thinking";

>    developer value is not a function of utilisation and margin %.

>    - And the last thing we want to do is encourage developers to "move up"

>    to other roles before they've even clocked their 10,000 hours to

> mastery<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Outliers_%28book%29>
>    .

>
> MNC's with a strong R&D focus, or the very successful software companies
> already do technical career planning quite well (I've worked in a corporate
> research lab that had a technical career ladder all the way up to chief
> scientist - who could actually be more senior and with better benefits than
> the CEO, depending on the incumbent).
>
> However, in the "real world"(!), the IT industry is predominantly sales,
> service and agency focused. i.e. businesses that are either
> selling/integrating existing products, or selling people/time/projects.
> There are very different dynamics at work than in R&D/PD:
>

>    - For consulting firms and agencies, it is usually the case that the

>    best revenue contributors (the cash cows) are the mid-level technical staff
>    (3-5 years experience). Beyond that, their margin % often drops, and it is
>    also harder to sell full utilisation.

>    - The pressure to be than just a pure technical contributor ratchets up

>    pretty quickly: you are expected to take on pre-sales, delivery management,
>    and even business development the higher you go

>    - Despite many of the larger firms operating locally (Oracle, NCS,

>    Accenture, IBM etc) having a focus on technical career development, you
>    learn pretty quickly that it is not the way to earn the big bucks. If you
>    have the aptitude, get into sales. Pre-sales is the best bet if you want to
>    remain largely technical, but also earn more and do less (although my
>    friends in pre-sales would probably argue that last point!)

>    - The net result is that there's a general expectation that you will

>    grow into other responsibilities pretty early in your career and leave
>    hard-core development behind (for the next batch of grads). It is not just
>    a local problem, but it does vary in degree:

>       - My own experience is that it does vary from country to country, but

>       not by much. On the whole by the time you get to late 20's/early 30's you
>       better be moving on up or there's trouble!

>       - And there can be cultural idiosyncrasies in some countries - like

>       older generations who want to judge your "success" by the number
> of people
>       working for you.
>
> It is in places where the services sector dwarfs the product development
> sector that this becomes the dominant industry practice (i.e. most of the
> world outside of Mountain View, Redmond, Silicon Valley).
>
> So what's the problem?
>
> Well, if we are in the services/agency business, maybe there isn't one.
> These are just the facts of life. Perhaps we just need to be as good as our
> competitors; trying to be significantly better can actually have a negative
> impact on our bottom line.
>
> *But* if we are really about product development, the last thing we should
> do is translate this services industry thinking into how to run a startup:
>

>    - The value of a developer is no longer a function of utilisation and
>    margin %
>    - It is all about how they can contribute to building the product
>    - If we want to build the best product, then at least a good proportion

>    of the developers need to be "the best" (or heading in that direction)
>
> In other words, the last thing we want to do is encourage developers to
> "move up" to other roles before they've even clocked their 10,000 hours to

> mastery <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Outliers_%28book%29>. In fact, we'd

> ideally want them to stick around a good few years *after* clocking the
> 10,000 hours in order to derive the most benefit from that experience.
>
> Having put that all in words, I'm wondering if this tendency to "think like
> an agency" (and value developers accordingly) might be one of the more
> insidious factors at work. And since our local industry is dominated by
> service/agency businesses, it is deeply ingrained in the way many of us
> have learned to operate.
>
> What do you think? Have others seen the same dynamics at work?
>

> ...
>
> read more »

[Andy Marks]

Wow Paul - you've thought about this one quite a lot!

Look, I'm not sure that I completely agree with the world class product needs world class team theory but I've been reading a lot of The Lean Startup recently and admit to being temporally biased in my views!

That said, I'm 100% behind you that companies and company cultures that struggle to understand the value brought by developers are almost definitely going to reward the wrong behaviour and/or provide little incentive for people to stick to a pure technical career.

I suspect we probably all are also partly contributing to this issue in some fashion as well...

<massive generalisation>

A developer's standing amongst fellow devs is almost always based on meritocracy (i.e., a Good Thing) and it's very hard for someone who isn't spending 10 hours a day hacking away to show their chops in a forum where it's "fastest hands wins".  It's true that some communities are far more forgiving of non-leet behaviour (and Ruby is one of those, although that is changing IMHO) but for many people who are in jobs that don't allow them to be hands-on consistently, I suspect they end up throwing their hands in the air in frustration with trying to stay current.

  

Furthermore, we can often struggle to express the value we bring to businesses, making it easier for people to view our trade as a commodity where the quality varies little from place to place and cost is the only lever worth pulling.  Sometimes we inadvertently miss this opportunity by implementing requirements without question or in the knowledge that there is little value in the work.

 

</massive generalisation>

Cheers,
Andy

Andy Marks

Technical Principal

ThoughtWorks Singapore

email: ama...@thoughtworks.bom

mobile: +65 9788 0259

web: www.thoughtworks.com

[Paul Gallagher]

Hi Andy,

On Sun, Feb 12, 2012 at 10:40 PM, Andy Marks <ama...@thoughtworks.com> wrote:

Wow Paul - you've thought about this one quite a lot!

habit;-)
 

Look, I'm not sure that I completely agree with the world class product needs world class team theory but I've been reading a lot of The Lean Startup recently and admit to being temporally biased in my views!

To be sure, I didn't mean to imply gold-plating everything. In truth, from a product-oriented startup perspective I'd probably refine:

• It's not just about technologists/developers, it's the balance of the whole team that matters of course. Ideas people/product managers, designers, distribution, support/community managers. Kick-ass design with competent development can be workable. But average tech at digg-scale and maybe you never get off the back foot, no matter how good everything else is going.
  
• And it's also about relativities. If you are only fielding a 60th percentile team, then it means you have 40 percentiles more to fear - especially if they are going after the same problem domain.
  

That said, I'm 100% behind you that companies and company cultures that struggle to understand the value brought by developers are almost definitely going to reward the wrong behaviour and/or provide little incentive for people to stick to a pure technical career.

Totally! You can reserve most of my invective for companies who act as if developer capabilities have no bearing on product outcomes (so you may as well get the cheapest possible, and just tell them to use an agile process;-)~

Fred Brooks be damned.
 

<massive generalisation>

[...] I suspect they end up throwing their hands in the air in frustration with trying to stay current. 

the "better be quick or be dead" pace of innovation in the ruby/rails space is bit of a double-edged sword, isn't it?!

[Andy Croll]

My 2 cents.

I prefer 'devolve' into management. </teasing>

Back on-topic... there are many symptoms and Singapore shows some
extreme cases, as well as many green shoots. Bear in mind I'd also
concur this isn't a Uniquely Singapore problem...

Development has been looked on in Singapore in the past as a low cost
activity (Singapore was seen as an outsourcing location) thus there
has been a historical lack of investment in the people (to keep the
cost down) and the situation that SS describes at HP is sadly not
widespread as many larger development oragisations here have been
gutted in favor of protecting a head office or sending to lower cost
locations.

This is coupled with a (very) management heavy approach to the digital
design / client services industry. Work is farmed to kids in bedrooms,
meaning no collegial learning environment. I've seen meetings between
one skilled-local designer and *five* expats from Ogilvy (who were the
original hired company) as evidence of where the client services money
goes. :-)

The other issue is of the biggest clients being the gahmen itself thus
the ability to negotiate the procurement process is incredibly
important. Once you know the process it has been the case that the
same companies are back again and again. Kudos to Carl for trying to
hack it - it's super important.

There is also the massive gahmen-linked companies such as Singtel,
where it doesn't mater what crap gets turned out as they have a
captive audience.

The other problem is that although Singapore acts as a brain drain to
the region it, in turn, has it's own mini-brain drain. Sending the
brightest students to a land of opportunity (US, UK) with the added
freedom of it 'not being home' means a lot of decent developers are
lost.

Short story of all of this... you end up with disillusioned devs in
Singapore.

--

That reads a lot more negatively than I feel. Things are changing.

We are doing the right stuff as a community. Every one of our
companies must take it upon themselves to reach out and TRAIN PEOPLE.
The only way to fix this is for all of us to actually do it. Hire a
grad/junior developer, pay them well, make them good, set them free to
do the same. Rinse. Repeat.

Chu Yeow has been doing it at Wego for a number of years, Sau Sheong
is doing it at HP, Carl at Pivotal, Paul banding together an all star
freelance team at Evendis... there are reasons to be positive.

Preach the craft.

Reverend Andy

PS Don't even get me started on the design side of things... I'll go
on for *hours*.

> *Andy Marks*
> *Technical Principal*
> ThoughtWorks Singapore
> *email*: ama...@thoughtworks.bom
> *mobile*: +65 9788 0259
> *web*:www.thoughtworks.com

>
> On Sun, Feb 12, 2012 at 7:59 PM, Paul Gallagher <gallagher.p...@gmail.com>wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > I agree that this is not just a regional cultural issue, Sau Sheong. But I
> > do see an issue here, and it's significance does vary a little between
> > regions.
>
> > Given this proposition: *if* you have the ambition to build world-class
> > product, then by definition you need world-class technologists, nurtured
> > within the framework of a viable long-term technical career path.
>
> > Then:
>

> >    - Is this a common enough career option for it to attract

> >    up-and-coming talent? I'd say mileage varies: in services-dominated regions
> >    like Singapore, it is a particular problem.

> >    - Do companies take this seriously? Again mileage varies: some R&D

> >    shops have well established career frameworks, but I fear that too many
> >    hope to short-cut the "build a world-class team" stage and jump straight to
> >    "deliver world-class product".
>
> > For product-oriented startups, there may be a clear warning here:
>

> >    - We need to remember to throw out the "services industry thinking";

> >    developer value is not a function of utilisation and margin %.

> >    - And the last thing we want to do is encourage developers to "move

> >    up" to other roles before they've even clocked their 10,000 hours to

> >    mastery <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Outliers_%28book%29>.

>
> > MNC's with a strong R&D focus, or the very successful software companies
> > already do technical career planning quite well (I've worked in a corporate
> > research lab that had a technical career ladder all the way up to chief
> > scientist - who could actually be more senior and with better benefits than
> > the CEO, depending on the incumbent).
>
> > However, in the "real world"(!), the IT industry is predominantly sales,
> > service and agency focused. i.e. businesses that are either
> > selling/integrating existing products, or selling people/time/projects.
> > There are very different dynamics at work than in R&D/PD:
>

> >    - For consulting firms and agencies, it is usually the case that the

> >    best revenue contributors (the cash cows) are the mid-level technical staff
> >    (3-5 years experience). Beyond that, their margin % often drops, and it is
> >    also harder to sell full utilisation.

> >    - The pressure to be than just a pure technical contributor ratchets

> >    up pretty quickly: you are expected to take on pre-sales, delivery
> >    management, and even business development the higher you go

> >    - Despite many of the larger firms operating locally (Oracle, NCS,

> >    Accenture, IBM etc) having a focus on technical career development, you
> >    learn pretty quickly that it is not the way to earn the big bucks. If you
> >    have the aptitude, get into sales. Pre-sales is the best bet if you want to
> >    remain largely technical, but also earn more and do less (although my
> >    friends in pre-sales would probably argue that last point!)

> >    - The net result is that there's a general expectation that you will

> >    grow into other responsibilities pretty early in your career and leave
> >    hard-core development behind (for the next batch of grads). It is not just
> >    a local problem, but it does vary in degree:

> >       - My own experience is that it does vary from country to country,

> >       but not by much. On the whole by the time you get to late 20's/early 30's
> >       you better be moving on up or there's trouble!

> >       - And there can be cultural idiosyncrasies in some countries - like

> >       older generations who want to judge your "success" by the number of people
> >       working for you.
>
> > It is in places where the services sector dwarfs the product development
> > sector that this becomes the dominant industry practice (i.e. most of the
> > world outside of Mountain View, Redmond, Silicon Valley).
>
> > So what's the problem?
>
> > Well, if we are in the services/agency business, maybe there isn't one.
> > These are just the facts of life. Perhaps we just need to be as good as our
> > competitors; trying to be significantly better can actually have a negative
> > impact on our bottom line.
>
> > *But* if we are really about product development, the last thing we should
> > do is translate this services industry thinking into how to run a startup:
>

> >    - The value of a developer is no longer a function of utilisation and
> >    margin %
> >    - It is all about how they can contribute to building the product
> >    - If we want to build the best product, then at least a good

> >    proportion of the developers need to be "the best" (or heading in that
> >    direction)
>
> > In other words, the last thing we want to do is encourage developers to
> > "move up" to other roles before they've even clocked their 10,000 hours

> > to mastery <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Outliers_%28book%29>. In fact,

> > we'd ideally want them to stick around a good few years *after* clocking
> > the 10,000 hours in order to derive the most benefit from that experience.
>
> > Having put that all in words, I'm wondering if this tendency to "think
> > like an agency" (and value developers accordingly) might be one of the more
> > insidious factors at work. And since our local industry is dominated by
> > service/agency businesses, it is deeply ingrained in the way many of us
> > have learned to operate.
>
> > What do you think? Have others seen the same dynamics at work?
>

> ...
>
> read more »

[Jason Ong]

Guys,

<jason's reality distortion field>

I think everyone's painting overly negative picture of what's really happening on the ground.

As someone's been organizing SRB meet ups since Choon Keat's mini-departure to SlideShare, I can say with a certain level of bias that things are way better now than 5 years ago. We have way more ruby devs floating around and way more ruby projects. And I believe it's gonna get better, not worse. A temporary HR crunch is normal in a growing field. In fact it might do ruby devs better that the demand remains high - growth of competitive projects outpace growth of devs. That way we'll always have a reason to stay on the technical track.

I do agree with Paul's subtle point of shifting focus from service to product. And currently trying to see if I can help connect devs here to product centric teams, SV being the biggest source of opportunities. 

With regards to Andy's point on brain drain, I see it as brain expansion that can contribute effectively to the scene here down the road. If you're a dev who've clocked decent hours and wants to gain some experience working on products from the valley, feel free to hit me up at my email.

</jason's reality distortion field>

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[elisha]

<marketing talk>
And that's why you should join a startup! It gives you the space to
work your creativity.
I heard this startup called learnemy is hiring....
</marketing talk>

But seriously, I'll love to learn how to train a ruby newbie while on
the job.
As a startuppie, I don't know how to go about doing that.

Isn't it silly to move someone out of a role he does well into
different management role?
If that guy is owning it in a dev role, it seems to make more sense to
pay him more just to keep him there.

> ...
>
> read more »

[Andy Marks]

Hi Elisha,

Skilling people up is obviously easier in larger teams as each person's relative contribution is a smaller part of the whole, at least under the completely false assumption that everyone contributes in a roughly equal fashion.

So I'm guessing this is even harder in a startup because of the small teams and presumably tight schedule pressure  demanded by a non-finite budget...

Naively, have you considered pair programming as a great way of not only filling knowledge/experience gaps in particular people, but also removing lots of other risks around development?  It can work especially well if each person in the pair has relative strengths and weaknesses that can balance each other out (e.g., pairing a newbie Ruby dev who happens to be a front-end wiz with an experienced Ruby dev who wants to spend more time in CSS/HTML5 land).

I think if you hire passionate developers who have at least gone through the pain of learning their 2nd language, adding something like Ruby should make them a contributor to the team fairly quickly.

Cheers,
Andy

Andy Marks

Technical Principal

ThoughtWorks Singapore

email: ama...@thoughtworks.com

mobile: +65 9788 0259

web: www.thoughtworks.com

> ...
>
> read more »

[Subh]

I completely agree with Andy, you probably won't have the bandwidth and time to teach someone everything. But you can probably help a person with his/her problems.

Learning needs to come from the developer's passion. So as a start-up you should do your best to drive that passion. For example some organizations have monetary rewards for such initiatives but that defeats the purpose. Again going back to what I said; in startups one should learn because he/she is passionate about the work he/she is doing not because somebody is putting an extra cash.

In one of the start-ups I worked in past; we had a dedicated weekly knowledge sharing sessions where we used to discuss about upcoming Web technologies. The guy presenting the most popular topic becomes the star of the week that we used to decide by votes in a team of 5 people. So no cash but a title using which we used to address the person for a week in all our communications.

So learning can happen when the guys learns something and teaches you rather than you teaching the dev. The poly guys I worked with are not available at the moment. One of them joined NUS and two went for national service. But they all were studying either CS or IT from Singapore Polytechnic. Probably would be a good idea to write the school and find out if you can get some interns.

- Subh
Blog: http://subhb.org/

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[Mohit Sindhwani]

On 13/2/2012 1:31 PM, elisha wrote:
> <marketing talk>
> And that's why you should join a startup! It gives you the space to
> work your creativity.
> I heard this startup called learnemy is hiring....
> </marketing talk>
>
> But seriously, I'll love to learn how to train a ruby newbie while on
> the job.
> As a startuppie, I don't know how to go about doing that.
>
> Isn't it silly to move someone out of a role he does well into
> different management role?
> If that guy is owning it in a dev role, it seems to make more sense to
> pay him more just to keep him there.
>

For Rails, the way we do it is to give him AWDWR4 and a simple challenge
to work on for a week. He's expected to read the book cover to cover,
type in all examples (not copy paste) and work through the book for a
while. Once that's done, he's ready to talk Rails to the rest of the
team and has garnered a collection of "best practices" ideas. After
that, it's really working on our real world stuff. In the meanwhile, we
nudge him to read stuff like "The Well-Grounded Rubyist" in parallel to
shore up Ruby skills.

Then, every now and then, we find some time in the schedules and try to
give a break for a week to learn something like RSpec or Sinatra... and
so on!

Other than that, in the earlier days, we review the code a bit more and
point out how we might approach things slightly differently taken from a
Rails (or Ruby) viewpoint.

That's worked for us - but it requires a candidate who has a willingness
to learn!

Best Regards,
Mohit.
13/2/2012 | 2:30 PM.

[Carl Coryell-Martin]

Pairing is an amazing way to teach people rails.  They have a tutor at their fingertips all the time and they quickly start to make the person they are working with do better work.  Also by working this way they learn the house style for getting things done.

We'll often use ping-pong pairing to help the new hire learn.  The more experienced engineer with write a failing test and then coach the new person on how to make it pass.

After enough of this, we'll switch roles and let the new hire practice writing tests and have them watch the experience person make it pass.

-ccm

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[Jason Ong]

+1 for paired learning.

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[Adrian Cumiskey]

Pairing is a great teaching tool on any software project.  I have seen and used this ping pong approach myself on numerous projects, and agree that it works especially well with new hires regardless of their experience level or which language or framework you decide to adopt on your project.

Adrian.

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[Mohit Sindhwani]

On 13/2/2012 3:16 PM, Adrian Cumiskey wrote:
>
> Pairing is a great teaching tool on any software project. I have seen
> and used this ping pong approach myself on numerous projects, and
> agree that it works especially well with new hires regardless of their
> experience level or which language or framework you decide to adopt on
> your project.
>
>

Actually, you're (all) right! This would have the extra benefit of them
learning the company style also, as Carl mentioned. Next up - we'll
pair them up for more fun and profit! Seeing this thread, I guess
there's little sense in adding that my company is looking for a couple
of seasoned Rails guys to build some cool stuff... but I'll look
elsewhere - hopefully, this thread will tell me where!

Best Regards,
Mohit.
13/2/2012 | 4:18 PM.

[wan]

i think "most experience developer in Singapore would
have make management in 4-6 years" has some merit. But i guess it is
mentioned in the wrong forum, because I believe most of singapore-rb
members are passionate programmers :)

Did anyone read survey around one year ago (either in StraitTime or
Digital life), and the survey showed that more students prefer to be
in Project Management rather than work as "Software Architect" in
their future career?

In my working experience, I saw more "accomplished people" after
turning into management rather than "sticking" to binary world. Taking
HP example again, although Technical Career Path there may have equal
benefit compare to "Management Career".. but overall I guess the
opportunity to grow in Technical Career path is smaller in term of
opportunity. But I guess HP Labs people may have different experience,
since it is a business unit rewarded for the innovations. How about in
HP-IT? I guess project manager kinds of work are the most rewarding
positions there.

Having said that, it is through this kind of forum that passionate
programmers encourage one another. Note that "career" is not the only
choice, anyone could start a small company, with relatively small
capital ~ time/money (e.g. by using RoR, on demand server e.g Amazon
EC2).

Cheers.

On Feb 12, 12:31 pm, Matthew Rudy Jacobs <matthewrudyjac...@gmail.com>
wrote:

[Sau Sheong Chang]

Hi Wan, actually it's the other way round. Like I mentioned earlier,
management roles are scarcer (in a group there is only going to be 1
manager, but there can be many senior developers) and that's the norm
unless the organization is really screwed up.

I was about to say that such thoughts are usually for the less
experienced people (read students) since they would think a 'manager'
role sounds more prestigious (looks better on name card?) and has more
opportunities to go up. In fact, although I think project management
is an essential role but it's a hard job that takes lots of beatings
but not much returns. On par with being a sysadmin I would say :D

I did also mention that in my org my devs are between 5 - 17 years in
exp and averages around 8 years. These are accomplished developers who
have made the technical path their careers and I can assure you that
they are paid on par with anyone on the same level in a 'management'.

[Roy Wang]

Well... I guess it's my turn to chime in.

Sau Sheong, I'm a software engineer at HP Networking R&D, and I understand what you're talking about. My team only has 14 people, and one manager. This is a good size, I think. I've been told that the "ideal" manager-developer ratio should be closer to 1:7.

There's really not much point to an organisation where the better way "up" is to cross over into management. At some point, there'd be a situation where the number of managers either matches or exceeds the number of developers. Who's going to do the real work of programming, then?

The pay-scales for a project manager and an individual contributor (software engineer) are really the same. In fact, I'd think it'd be harder to climb as a manager because there're fewer tangible results to show that can reflect one's achievements. Any new innovation or milestone reached always has to be attributed to the software developers on the team, not wholly to the manager.

However, it seems like the one-to-many manager-developer ratio is a feature of HP and some organisations (I believe IBM works this way, too). When I spoke with Microsoft recruiters in the US, it seems they recruit equally for developers and product managers. Then again, product management is not project management, although the personnel involved are all generically "managers". In that sense, software developers are also "managers", since we "manage" code.

A "manager" is simply a title, I suppose. It's just a different job function from a programmer. I'd definitely think that anyone who believes a "manager" is "higher-ranked" than a developer is rather misguided or anachronistic, especially in computer engineering. 

Roy

[Roy Wang]

"So I'm guessing this is even harder in a startup because of the small teams and presumably tight schedule pressure  demanded by a non-finite budget..."

Tsk, tsk. This seems to infer that teams in larger organisations have an infinite budget. We definitely do not have an over-abundance of resources. My team has had to beg and scavenge for equipment from the hardware team's discard pile. We do have the ability to buy really expensive servers, but still...

Alright, this is just in jest. I do know that startups have really tight budgets. I used to work in a startup and we were saving every penny and not getting paid real money.

Roy

[Winston Teo]

Although Sau Sheong has already kindly debunked the myth, that senior technical staff can command the same amount of pay as a project manager, sadly, that's not what most people know about. 

Especially not fresh graduates. And so, what do (some? most?) fresh graduates look at? 

They look at salary review guides. E.g. http://www.payscale.com/research/SG/Country=Singapore/Salary (and many others) Wow! The average salary of a Project Manager is so much higher as compared to a Software Engineer. And if you are doing (IT) sales, you earn even more! -1 to being a Software Engineer.

Banks and MNCs pitch to them during recruitment talks and career fairs. They sell fresh grads on great career progression to that lucrative managerial/sales role that would earn them big bucks. In some roles, they don't even have to do programming anymore! -1 to being a Software Engineer.

And then they hear stories about how programming work can be outsourced to other countries for a fraction of the cost, and they wonder if there would be job security in being a technical worker. -1 to being a Software Engineer.

There might be more reasons against being a Software Engineer. But you get the idea.

I believe that our resource problem comes from inadequate education to students or even to the general public about the joy, fulfillment and also possible monetary gains of being a technical worker. There has not been enough people to promote Software Engineering as a lifelong career to students, educators and companies. Because of this, a cycle is created in that lesser people wants to do engineering, and lesser people promotes engineering.

Of course, I am seeing something very different here in this thread, and I really hope we can do something to change this.

Enjoyed the discussion so far. Hope I make sense. Thanks!

Cheers,

Winston

[Andy Marks]

Winston - I agree.  There are organisations locally and abroad that recognise the value of high quality software engineering talent and reward it appropriately, but they are certainly in the minority.  The "other" type of organisation has far more implicit marketing power behind it and certainly has mindshare in the software development community in the large.

That said, everything is cyclical.  People's memories are quick to fade and it's been long enough since the dotcom boom/bust - the last time there was a prolonged wide recognition of the power of software development, for better or worse.  

I wonder if the current Web 2.0 surge of popularity will end the same way and with the same backlash against technology as a result?

  

I was listening to Chad Fowler on the Prag podcast (http://pragprog.com/podcasts/show/26) last night talking about his book from a couple of years ago and found it quite relevant in that it talks of the responsibility that WE have to help ourselves in this market.

p.s.

I was just about to mention The Social Network in relation to this thread, but someone beat me to it :-)  I am curious to see whether an Oscar-nominated film about a very high profile software engineering (albeit a bit of a dick) in the immediate sphere of influence of many CS grads will make a difference to people's mindsets.

+1 to the film for making a decent effort of describing the actual technical steps needed to create the FaceMash - I don't think I've ever heard "curl" referred to before in popular film.

Cheers,
Andy

Andy Marks

Technical Principal

ThoughtWorks Singapore

email: ama...@thoughtworks.com

mobile: +65 9788 0259

web: www.thoughtworks.com

[Sau Sheong Chang]

In reality neither product nor project managers are really 'manager's
in the traditional (or widely understood) sense. In HR lingo it's a
people manager or an individual contributor. Both project and product
managers are individual contributors by role. BTW I would say rarely
any discipline in school other than maybe MBAs teach u how to manage
people. And of course managing people is different from *leading*
people ...

So to say that most developers would make management in 4-6 years is
pretty ludicrous. Just like saying after selling software for 4-6
years you would normally be able to develop software. These are 2
different things. It's possible to cross-over to either side but it
needs training, learning opportunities and acumen.

[Sau Sheong Chang]

I'm not saying these companies are lying thru their teeth but their
methods of deriving these numbers are not published so they are
meaningless numbers. At *best* they are just indicative of their
sample set.

All jobs can be outsourced. I know a MD of a large US technology MNC
in SG who was laid off because his job out eventually 'outsourced' to
a cheaper location. It's a reality of life.

On Feb 14, 12:28 am, Winston Teo <winston.yong...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Although Sau Sheong has already kindly debunked the myth, that senior
> technical staff can command the same amount of pay as a project
> manager, sadly, that's not what most people know about.
>
> Especially not fresh graduates. And so, what do (some? most?) fresh
> graduates look at?
>

> They look at salary review guides. E.g.http://www.payscale.com/research/SG/Country=Singapore/Salary(and many

[wizcoder]

Not many developer stays developer for 4-6 years, most of the
developers I know move out of development after 1 or 2 years into
sales or other stuff.

[wizcoder]

If the developer is to work alone, setting up support structure for
him will be good.
A couple of experiences developer on Skype can be a great help.

> ...
>
> read more »

[Jason Ong]

I can help in extra experience I have. Hit up velvetpd on skype and gmail.

> ...
>
> read more »

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[elisha]

Just in case anyone still reads this,

I realized that perhaps I shouldn't be so concerned if a developer is
based in Singapore or not, since I'll be communicating mainly via
Skype anyway. So yea, friendly programmers in the Southeast Asia (so
our time zone don't differ too much) are welcome to apply for a full
time job with Learnemy.

Repeating myself, Learnemy is hiring a developer and here are 6

reasons why you should join:

- Learnemy has a purpose for the society

http://www.blog.learnemy.com/kpi/ . I have a big vision.

- You will be treated with respect, and like an adult. No monkeys
around here.
- You get to make key decisions in the startup.
- You get a competitive salary.
- Flexible hours. I respect the maker’s schedule.
- You get to operate like a founder but enjoy the stability of an
employee.

If you are reading this, you probably want to see details of the job.
They are here: http://www.blog.learnemy.com/come-work-on-learnemy/

Thanks, guys! :)

> ...
>
> read more »

[Yasith Fernando]

This might be a good place find fellow rubyists in the region http://workingwithrails.com/browse/people/country

> ...
>
> read more »

[Jason Ong]

Oh, I didn't have an entry. FIXED.