OT: Caltrain

[murphstahoe]

Caltrain JPB Agenda for tomorrow.

Possible Additional Service/Other includes a preliminary projection of $375,000 for an
additional 6 trains effective September 1, 2012

This would be *sweet*. I am guessing 2 RTs added to traditional peak and 1 for reverse peak. The trains are getting really full not to mention it adds even more choices and frequency. And a lot of extra bike capacity to rush hour, probably an extra bullet to Palo Alto.

Please email to comm...@caltrain.com and tell them what a good idea you think this is.

[Darrin Ward]

that's awesome.

i got to wonder if 375k is for a year of 6 trains?  cause really to most of the decent sized companies down here that is a rounding error or couch change.  imagine if google, nvidia, apple, microsoft, etc each through down a couple of million a year for caltrain service.  sorry ill stop dreaming and go ride off on my unicorn.

lurch

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[ta...@murphstahoe.com]

yes, this is a year. When they cut 4 trains last time it was something like 250k - chump change - but it really f'd up my life by eliminating train 236 - the "oh man am I being a slacker and missed the last bullet but at least there is a limited" or "FML I got bumped off the bullet".

Adding these trains is just labor and fuel + some extra maintainance. 

More trains than that and you're starting to need additional trainsets which actually starts to cost money, but really even with that it is not very much money to have Caltrain running trains every 15 minutes midday, which turns it from commuter rail to mass transit. Might happen someday.

------- Original Message ------- On 5/2/2012 8:16 PM Darrin Ward wrote:
that's awesome.

i got to wonder if 375k is for a year of 6 trains?  cause really to most of the decent sized companies down here that is a rounding error or couch ch ange.  imagine if google, nvidia, apple, microsoft, etc each through down a couple of million a year for caltrain service.  sorry ill stop dreaming and go ride off on my unicorn.

[Dave Blizard]

ok.. I'll still dream of unicorns with more thoughts on the topic.

These companies are already throwing down mad cash for their own shuttle services. :( Always hoped they would opt for the greater good and put that into a "use by all" option like Caltrain.

For example:

I work for a semi small company (less than 100 employees) in Foster City we talked with Bauer regarding a minimal shuttle service from SF to FC. For around 20,000 per month not including gas... we get a full sized bus running only 2 morning and 2 evening trips.

Gas is probably on the order of 300.00+ per day, according to their representative.. so tack on another 6K per month.

300,000+ bucks a year for a bare bones shuttle.

[Peter Chang]

2012/5/2 murphstahoe <ta...@murphstahoe.com>:

> Caltrain JPB Agenda for tomorrow.
>
> Possible Additional Service/Other includes a preliminary projection of
> $375,000 for an
> additional 6 trains effective September 1, 2012
>
> This would be *sweet*. I am guessing 2 RTs added to traditional peak and 1
> for reverse peak.

now that i see that this is an annual cost, i'm more gobsmacked by
their quoted cost for wrapping a train (>200k); that's almost a train
right there. grrrrr......

of course, dave has a good point...

>> These companies are already throwing down mad cash for their own shuttle services. :( Always hoped they would opt for the greater good and put that into a "use by all" option like Caltrain.

and they also already have shuttles to the trains (at least at the
company i'm familiar w/)....

\p

[Scott Dier]

Yeah, but its still 15-20 minutes to get there. If caltrain had
service that was about 20-30 minutes faster from mountain view I'd
consider it.

> and they also already have shuttles to the trains (at least at the
> company i'm familiar w/)....

--
Scott Dier <sc...@dier.name>

[Darrin Ward]

im all for corporations helping to subsidize public transportation for the greater good but i dont think for them it makes sense to do that instead of said corporate shuttles since many people live in areas not feasible to take public transportation to work even if public transportation is fully funded.  i cant imagine talking muni and caltrain from the richmond in sf to mtv view.

i have heard from many different transportation coordination type folks about how bauer's is typically several times more expensive than their competitors.  google doesnt use them.  neither does genetech afaik.

darrin

[Andrew Stadler]

On Wed, May 2, 2012 at 4:16 PM, Dave Blizard <daveb...@gmail.com> wrote:

> These companies are already throwing down mad cash for their own shuttle
> services. :( Always hoped they would opt for the greater good and put that
> into a "use by all" option like Caltrain.

Just as a point of clarification, the G shuttle primarily serves
non-Caltrain areas. Tons of Google shuttles going to areas other than
San Francisco.

Where it's a grey area is whether or not Caltrain is a viable option
for folks who live in SF but don't live near a Caltrain station. For
awesome bike commuters like Murph, hell yeah. But for the average
masses, not really.

A core problem is that the existing infrastructure (for most of the
transit modes) was laid out to bring people in/out of downtown San
Francisco. This is true both in SF and in the region.

--Andy

[John Murphy]

All that is is money too. Electrification will reduce run times by 25 percent.

Sent from my iPhone

[Judd Blair]

Google did use Bauer at one point, but they got ditched because they were cost prohibitive. That said, I can see why - those things were swanky.

[Eric Altendorf]

On Wed, May 2, 2012 at 6:24 PM, Andrew Stadler <sta...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Wed, May 2, 2012 at 4:16 PM, Dave Blizard <daveb...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> These companies are already throwing down mad cash for their own shuttle
>> services. :( Always hoped they would opt for the greater good and put that
>> into a "use by all" option like Caltrain.
>
> Just as a point of clarification, the G shuttle primarily serves
> non-Caltrain areas.  Tons of Google shuttles going to areas other than
> San Francisco.
>
> Where it's a grey area is whether or not Caltrain is a viable option
> for folks who live in SF but don't live near a Caltrain station.  For
> awesome bike commuters like Murph, hell yeah.  But for the average
> masses, not really.

Not just the average masses. Biking to Caltrain (vs to my shuttle
stop) would add 30-45 minutes a day to my total commute time,
best-case scenario, and I live neither particularly far from caltrain
nor is work particularly far from caltrain.

It's unfortunate, but the way residents are dispersed throughout SF,
and the way businesses are dispersed throughout the peninsula, there's
a large section of the reverse-commute population for which I expect
caltrain is extremely inconvenient, at least compared to a corporate
shuttle.

You can argue "ahhh you wasteful selfish people, you should live
closer to caltrain", and there'd be some truth to that, but then you
could also say "you should live on the peninsula by your workplace" :)

>
> A core problem is that the existing infrastructure (for most of the
> transit modes) was laid out to bring people in/out of downtown San
> Francisco.  This is true both in SF and in the region.

Yeah.

>
> --Andy

[Yoyo Zhou]

Caltrain is also in located in an inconvenient part of San Francisco,
not close to the densest neighborhoods, so probably only 5% of San
Francisco residents could even live within walking distance of it.
It's almost by sheer luck that it's only a mile from downtown. Notice
that it wasn't designed for commuter rail, but for freight.

Compare it to the locations of Penn Station and Grand Central, North
Station and South Station, Zürich Hauptbahnhof, etc.

--
Yoyo Zhou

[Dave Blizard]

If u have any info on other shuttle companies. Send them my way. 

-D

---------------------------------------------

Typed with thumbs on iPhone.  Typo's don't count.

[Darrin Ward]

i would investigate.

http://www.sfoshuttle.net

http://www.coachamerica.com

wont be as swanky as bauer but probably wont cost an arm and a leg and a first world country.

darrin

[Dave Blizard]

Thx. We r not looking for swank. Price point is king. :)

-D

---------------------------------------------

Typed with thumbs on iPhone.  Typo's don't count.

[Viet-Trung Luu]

Not only that, but moreover BART and Muni hardly connect to Caltrain
(or to each other, for that matter). Coordinated schedules and
transfers? Ha!

It's too bad BART a) runs on unique (broad gauge) tracks (with third
rail power) and b) has the oldest trains in the known universe.
Comparable services in Europe (e.g., S-Bahn) have trains that can
accelerate to 120 km/h (75 mph) in a blink of an eye and can run
trains as close as 1 or 2 minutes apart.

I suppose Caltrain may eventually be grade-separated and electrified,
and get decent trains, but it'll still have the problem of not having
enough connections in San Francisco.

>
> --
> Yoyo Zhou

[Eric Altendorf]

yeah, bart vs caltrain vs muni vs vta vs whatever the hell they have
over in the east bay .... fun times.

a friend of mine visited from NYC recently. first, given that he sees
SF as a provincial little hamlet, he was blown away that we have a
subway system! then doubly blown away that we have two independent
subway systems! :)

[Dave Blizard]

Agreed. Im always amazed how long it takes me to get to caltrain @22nd from Noe. I usually give myself :35 min and always seem to just make it, or sometimes even miss it. And this is by car, scooter, or bike.

If I take MUNI I need to leave my house 1 hour prior to Caltrain departure. Can't afford that time suck. :(

Just drive = 35 - 40 min door to door
Just bike = 1.2 hours door to door

Yeah can't compare with Grand Central or Penn. those actually work. Lived in NYC for 8 years.

-D
---------------------------------------------
Typed with thumbs on iPhone. Typo's don't count.

[Eric Altendorf]

On Wed, May 2, 2012 at 9:52 PM, Dave Blizard <daveb...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Agreed. Im always amazed how long it takes me to get to caltrain @22nd from Noe. I usually give myself :35 min and always seem to just make it, or sometimes even miss it. And this is by car, scooter, or bike.
>
> If I take MUNI I need to leave my house 1 hour prior to Caltrain departure. Can't afford that time suck. :(
>
> Just drive = 35 - 40 min door to door
> Just bike = 1.2 hours door to door
>
> Yeah can't compare with Grand Central or Penn. those actually work. Lived in NYC for 8 years.

The amazing thing is that a large portion of SF feels this is a good
thing. Density, or "manhattanization", is considered a travesty and
social ill foisted upon the people by fat cat real estate developers.
Keep SF low and spread out!

[John Murphy]

My strava tracks dispute your assertion. From Jersey/Diamond I can leave home 20 minutes before the train and make it with a bagel stop on the way.

Sent from my iPhone

[Dave Blizard]

I haven't ridden to 22nd in a long time. Can't risk getting bumped. Ha!

-D
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Typed with thumbs on iPhone. Typo's don't count.

[djconnel]

Indeed.  The bagels in Penn are simply extraordinary.  I'll be picking some up in 38 hours.

[R. Samuel Klatchko]

If by two independent subways you mean Muni v. BART, it's not that unusual to have separate intra-city and inter-city systems.

I'm surprised that a New York was blown away by this when they have at least 3 systems (MTA, LIRR and PATH).

[Eric Altendorf]

Yes it wasn't obvious to him that bart was intercity, as it is frequently used intracity (in fact, that's how he was using it). I did explain though.

[murphstahoe]

What I heard is that Caltrain is going to bring back the 4 trains that were removed from the schedule and add 2 more around 2 PM.

For people riding the "reverse commute" this means there would be a train headed southbound at 9:37 AM from 4th, stopping at 22nd but skipping Bayshore, SSF, and I think Hayward Park.
Returning home there would be an additonal train leaving SJ at 2:40 with skipping those same stops, and the some other train.

Now, this is great, I miss that 9:37 AM train, it got me to work not much later than the 9:07 AM train but allowed for an extra half hour of "whatever" I needed to do in SF in the AM (which often includes calling India).

However... I think it would be better to replace the current 9:07 AM train with a 9:14 AM bullet 4th/22/Millbrae/Hillsdale/PA/MV/SJ, then add a 9:37 full local. This pimps the people taking the 9:07 by 30 minutes but between the 8:44, 8:59, and (new) 9:14 almost all of the stops are represented. But the 9:14 Bullet would attract a *lot* of riders off of the 8:14 bullet and make the trains more comfy.

Thoughts? I know Judd would be all over this. If we get ahead of Caltrain on this one, we might be able to get it.

[Patrick Kitto]

Ask for it. public comment actually has a lot of pull.

Just don't wear your kit when you do and use a separate occasion to
ask about bike capacity...

Just sayin'

> > Please email to comme...@caltrain.com and tell them what a good idea you
> > think this is.

[Scott Dier]

You can play with this tool to model the changes:

http://mly.users.sonic.net/Caltrain-Timetabling/201105-takt/takt.php

There are links at the bottom with example schedules. Its not perfect
but gave me a good idea of how timetable configuration works. Much of
the situation is where the current overtake facilities are located and
the requirements for train spacing based on the current control
system. (ie: signals instead of PTC)

The latest caltrain-hsr post also details the future of overtake facilities:
http://caltrain-hsr.blogspot.com/

Thanks,

> --
> terms: http://sf2g.com/terms.html | bike prep: http://sf2g.com/prep.html |
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--

Scott Dier <sc...@dier.name>