Re: WHO IS JESUS? ??????????

dh

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Jan 5, 2012, 8:15:17 PM1/5/12

to

On Mon, 02 Jan 2012 17:51:59 -0600, Free Lunch <lu...@nofreelunch.us> wrote:

>On Mon, 02 Jan 2012 13:53:55 -0800, dh@. wrote in alt.atheism:
>
>>On Thu, 29 Dec 2011 17:07:14 -0600, Free Lunch <lu...@nofreelunch.us> wrote:
>>
>>>On Thu, 29 Dec 2011 18:02:30 -0800, dh@. wrote in alt.atheism:
>>>
>>>>On Thu, 29 Dec 2011 08:24:47 -0500, Colanth <col...@pern.invalid> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>On Wed, 28 Dec 2011 16:07:49 -0800, dh@. wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>On Tue, 27 Dec 2011 14:10:06 -0500, Colanth <col...@pern.invalid> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>On Mon, 26 Dec 2011 17:52:12 -0800, dh@. wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>On Thu, 22 Dec 2011 19:23:58 -0600, Free Lunch <lu...@nofreelunch.us> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>On Thu, 22 Dec 2011 18:00:45 -0800, dh@. wrote in alt.atheism:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Explain how you want people to believe faith that God does not exist is
>>>>>>>>>>somehow superior to faith that he does. Go:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>It takes no faith to conclude that no gods exist. None at all.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The amount of faith you have that none do is what determines how strongly
>>>>>>>>you do or don't believe that none do.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>And since it takes 0 faith to conclude that no gods exist, evidently
>>>>>>>no one who believes that no gods exist believes that no gods exist.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>That, or your logic is a bit, shall we say, brainless?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>If new evidence is provided, I would reconsider my position
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>4. If God exists
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>You can't use the supposition that God exists as evidence that God
>>>>>>>exists.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I don't try.
>>>>>
>>>>>You did there.
>>>>
>>>> Nope.
>>>
>>>Until you start with the null hypothesis, in this case there is no god,
>>
>> I consider the possibility that there are no gods anywhere in the universe.
>
>Not a bad start.

It's all the same.

>>I also consider the possibility that there are gods in the universe but there
>>are none associated with this planet and never have been.
>
>Not really useful here.

It's all the same.

>>I also consider the
>>possibility that there are gods in the universe but there are none associated
>>with this planet at this time but they have been in the past.
>
>Again, not useful.

It's all the same.

>> I consider that
>>last one to be the most unlikelly. There are other ways I consider that no God
>>is having influence on this planet too, but then I leave you WAAAAAAAAAAY behind
>>and also consider possibilities that God does exist and does have influence on
>>this planet.........
>
>But you haven't given us any reason that you considered that
>possibility.

What did I tell you?

>Certainly no evidence supports that supposition.

Yes it does, even if every bit of evidence is false.

>>>there is nothing you will accomplish in showing us that the god you
>>>worship exists.
>>
>> It appears you have no concept at all of how God could exist, or of how any
>>gods could exist anywhere in the universe. That doesn't make you superior from
>>my pov and I can't think down to that level. It would be like trying to not be
>>able to read or understand English something like that.
>
>You haven't given me any reason to accept your supposition that there
>might be gods around here.

Or anywhere.

>I know exactly what is going on here,

LOL...I mean: How did you find out?

>but you don't seem to understand yourself.

Then try to explain it if you think you do understand.

George Plimpton

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Jan 5, 2012, 5:17:48 PM1/5/12

to

No.

>>> I also consider the possibility that there are gods in the universe but there
>>> are none associated with this planet and never have been.
>>
>> Not really useful here.
>
> It's all the same.

No.

>
>>> I also consider the
>>> possibility that there are gods in the universe but there are none associated
>>> with this planet at this time but they have been in the past.
>>
>> Again, not useful.
>
> It's all the same.

No.

>
>>> I consider that
>>> last one to be the most unlikelly. There are other ways I consider that no God
>>> is having influence on this planet too, but then I leave you WAAAAAAAAAAY behind

No.

>>> and also consider possibilities that God does exist and does have influence on
>>> this planet.........
>>
>> But you haven't given us any reason that you considered that
>> possibility.
>
> What did I tell you?

Nothing.

>> Certainly no evidence supports that supposition.
>
> Yes it does,

No.

>>>> there is nothing you will accomplish in showing us that the god you
>>>> worship exists.
>>>
>>> It appears you have no concept at all of how God could exist, or of how any
>>> gods could exist anywhere in the universe. That doesn't make you superior from
>>> my pov and I can't think down to that level. It would be like trying to not be
>>> able to read or understand English something like that.
>>
>> You haven't given me any reason to accept your supposition that there
>> might be gods around here.
>
> Or anywhere.

No reason given.

>> I know exactly what is going on here,but you don't seem to understand yourself.

>
> Then try to explain it if you think you do understand.

He has shown that you don't understand. That's all that's needed.

Free Lunch

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Jan 5, 2012, 7:01:15 PM1/5/12

to

That is nonsense. If it is evidence, it is not false. This is not court.

>>>>there is nothing you will accomplish in showing us that the god you
>>>>worship exists.
>>>
>>> It appears you have no concept at all of how God could exist, or of how any
>>>gods could exist anywhere in the universe. That doesn't make you superior from
>>>my pov and I can't think down to that level. It would be like trying to not be
>>>able to read or understand English something like that.
>>
>>You haven't given me any reason to accept your supposition that there
>>might be gods around here.
>
> Or anywhere.
>
>>I know exactly what is going on here,
>
> LOL...I mean: How did you find out?
>
>>but you don't seem to understand yourself.
>
> Then try to explain it if you think you do understand.

I don't believe in any gods and I see no evidence that supports the
supposition that one or more gods exist. Why waste time speculating on
how many unicorns can dance in a hydrogen atom?

dh

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Jan 7, 2012, 6:21:55 PM1/7/12

to

On Thu, 05 Jan 2012 18:01:15 -0600, Free Lunch <lu...@nofreelunch.us> wrote:

>On Thu, 05 Jan 2012 17:15:17 -0800, dh@. wrote in alt.atheism:
>
>>On Mon, 02 Jan 2012 17:51:59 -0600, Free Lunch <lu...@nofreelunch.us> wrote:
>>
>>>On Mon, 02 Jan 2012 13:53:55 -0800, dh@. wrote in alt.atheism:
>>>
>>>>I consider that no God
>>>>is having influence on this planet too, but then I leave you WAAAAAAAAAAY behind
>>>>and also consider possibilities that God does exist and does have influence on
>>>>this planet.........
>>>
>>>But you haven't given us any reason that you considered that
>>>possibility.
>>
>> What did I tell you?
>>
>>>Certainly no evidence supports that supposition.
>>
>> Yes it does, even if every bit of evidence is false.
>
>That is nonsense. If it is evidence, it is not false.

In contrast to that seemingly incredibly naive claim, some of it MUST be
false imo. But then you can't recognise any of it anyway, so you necessarily are
unable to have a realistic opinion about it.

>This is not court.
>
>>>>>there is nothing you will accomplish in showing us that the god you
>>>>>worship exists.
>>>>
>>>> It appears you have no concept at all of how God could exist, or of how any
>>>>gods could exist anywhere in the universe. That doesn't make you superior from
>>>>my pov and I can't think down to that level. It would be like trying to not be
>>>>able to read or understand English something like that.
>>>
>>>You haven't given me any reason to accept your supposition that there
>>>might be gods around here.
>>
>> Or anywhere.
>>
>>>I know exactly what is going on here,
>>
>> LOL...I mean: How did you find out?
>>
>>>but you don't seem to understand yourself.
>>
>> Then try to explain it if you think you do understand.
>
>I don't believe in any gods

It's possible there are no gods, but I've known that for decades.

>and I see no evidence that supports the
>supposition that one or more gods exist.

4. If God exists and wants things to be as they are, he
could not provide proof of his existence because doing
so would change things too much.

>Why waste time speculating on
>how many unicorns can dance in a hydrogen atom?

Why go out of your way to try to persuade people to develop faith in one
possibility that you yourself are ashamed you've put your own faith in? LOL...
Actually people like yourself are evidence of God's existence because you are
evidence of Satan's existence. Does it make any sense that a decent adult human
being would want to comdemn other people to Hell if he could, which is what
your're really attempting to do? If God etc exist and you're successful at
persuading people that they don't, then you're doing Satan's bidding for no
apparent gain to yourself. Oh, but YOU can't imagine any of the countless ways
that God could exist, so you're willing to risk getting other people sent to
eternal tourment just for...to....hmmm....for no gain to yourself so for no
decent reason at all. Sounds insane when you think about what you're attempting,
so if you're not insane then you're evidence that the beast is working through
you, making you evidence of Satan's and therefore God's existence.

Free Lunch

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Jan 7, 2012, 4:09:17 PM1/7/12

to

On Sat, 07 Jan 2012 15:21:55 -0800, dh@. wrote in alt.atheism:

>On Thu, 05 Jan 2012 18:01:15 -0600, Free Lunch <lu...@nofreelunch.us> wrote:
>
>>On Thu, 05 Jan 2012 17:15:17 -0800, dh@. wrote in alt.atheism:
>>
>>>On Mon, 02 Jan 2012 17:51:59 -0600, Free Lunch <lu...@nofreelunch.us> wrote:
>>>
>>>>On Mon, 02 Jan 2012 13:53:55 -0800, dh@. wrote in alt.atheism:
>>>>
>>>>>I consider that no God
>>>>>is having influence on this planet too, but then I leave you WAAAAAAAAAAY behind
>>>>>and also consider possibilities that God does exist and does have influence on
>>>>>this planet.........
>>>>
>>>>But you haven't given us any reason that you considered that
>>>>possibility.
>>>
>>> What did I tell you?
>>>
>>>>Certainly no evidence supports that supposition.
>>>
>>> Yes it does, even if every bit of evidence is false.
>>
>>That is nonsense. If it is evidence, it is not false.
>
> In contrast to that seemingly incredibly naive claim, some of it MUST be
>false imo. But then you can't recognise any of it anyway, so you necessarily are
>unable to have a realistic opinion about it.

Your opinion is of no value in this discussion. If you cannot provide
evidence, your claims can fairly be dismissed.

>>This is not court.
>>
>>>>>>there is nothing you will accomplish in showing us that the god you
>>>>>>worship exists.
>>>>>
>>>>> It appears you have no concept at all of how God could exist, or of how any
>>>>>gods could exist anywhere in the universe. That doesn't make you superior from
>>>>>my pov and I can't think down to that level. It would be like trying to not be
>>>>>able to read or understand English something like that.
>>>>
>>>>You haven't given me any reason to accept your supposition that there
>>>>might be gods around here.
>>>
>>> Or anywhere.
>>>
>>>>I know exactly what is going on here,
>>>
>>> LOL...I mean: How did you find out?
>>>
>>>>but you don't seem to understand yourself.
>>>
>>> Then try to explain it if you think you do understand.
>>
>>I don't believe in any gods
>
> It's possible there are no gods, but I've known that for decades.

Yet you go on and on about how there might be a god, despite the total
lack of evidence for any such gods. Why do you waste your time defending
theist nonsense?

>>and I see no evidence that supports the
>>supposition that one or more gods exist.
>
>4. If God exists and wants things to be as they are, he
>could not provide proof of his existence because doing
>so would change things too much.

That was meaningless before, it is still meaningless.

>>Why waste time speculating on
>>how many unicorns can dance in a hydrogen atom?
>
> Why go out of your way to try to persuade people to develop faith in one
>possibility that you yourself are ashamed you've put your own faith in?

Your question makes no sense.

>LOL...

Laugh all you want. You are only laughing at your own foolishness.

>Actually people like yourself are evidence of God's existence because you are
>evidence of Satan's existence.

Of course you know you are making a silly claim that is completely
erroneous.

>Does it make any sense that a decent adult human
>being would want to comdemn other people to Hell if he could, which is what
>your're really attempting to do?

There is no evidence of an afterlife or of a hell or heaven. Why should
I waste my time worrying about such attempts to manipulate others when
it is clear that nothing supports those claims?

>If God etc exist and you're successful at
>persuading people that they don't, then you're doing Satan's bidding for no
>apparent gain to yourself.

If God existed, God would take care of what He wants. There's no
evidence that any of your doctrines are true.

>Oh, but YOU can't imagine any of the countless ways
>that God could exist, so you're willing to risk getting other people sent to
>eternal tourment just for...to....hmmm....for no gain to yourself so for no
>decent reason at all. Sounds insane when you think about what you're attempting,
>so if you're not insane then you're evidence that the beast is working through
>you, making you evidence of Satan's and therefore God's existence.

So you are Satan's spawn, preaching lies to mislead others?

dh

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Jan 10, 2012, 6:05:15 PM1/10/12

to

On Sat, 07 Jan 2012 15:09:17 -0600, Free Lunch <lu...@nofreelunch.us> wrote:

>On Sat, 07 Jan 2012 15:21:55 -0800, dh@. wrote in alt.atheism:
>
>>On Thu, 05 Jan 2012 18:01:15 -0600, Free Lunch <lu...@nofreelunch.us> wrote:
>>
>>>On Thu, 05 Jan 2012 17:15:17 -0800, dh@. wrote in alt.atheism:
>>>
>>>>On Mon, 02 Jan 2012 17:51:59 -0600, Free Lunch <lu...@nofreelunch.us> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>On Mon, 02 Jan 2012 13:53:55 -0800, dh@. wrote in alt.atheism:
>>>>>
>>>>>>I consider that no God
>>>>>>is having influence on this planet too, but then I leave you WAAAAAAAAAAY behind
>>>>>>and also consider possibilities that God does exist and does have influence on
>>>>>>this planet.........
>>>>>
>>>>>But you haven't given us any reason that you considered that
>>>>>possibility.
>>>>
>>>> What did I tell you?
>>>>
>>>>>Certainly no evidence supports that supposition.
>>>>
>>>> Yes it does, even if every bit of evidence is false.
>>>
>>>That is nonsense. If it is evidence, it is not false.
>>
>> In contrast to that seemingly incredibly naive claim, some of it MUST be
>>false imo. But then you can't recognise any of it anyway, so you necessarily are
>>unable to have a realistic opinion about it.
>
>Your opinion is of no value in this discussion. If you cannot provide
>evidence,

The Bible is evidence even if false evidence. So are churches. So are
mosques. So is the Koran. So is the Book of Mormon.
How about the Satanic Bible? Is it more or less evidence of God's existence
than the other books mentioned?
. . .

>>>>try to explain it if you think you do understand.
>>>
>>>I don't believe in any gods
>>
>> It's possible there are no gods, but I've known that for decades.
>
>Yet you go on and on about how there might be a god,

The possibility that God doesn't exist is a dead end. It's possible and
that's as far as you can go with. In contrast to that you can take the
possibility that he does as far as you want to go with it, and I take it a lot
farther than you since you can't get anywhere with it.

>despite the total
>lack of evidence for any such gods. Why do you waste your time defending
>theist nonsense?

God may or may not exist. So far that's all I've been encouraging you to try
to learn, and I haven't gone on about any particular theistic beliefs afaik.

>>>and I see no evidence that supports the
>>>supposition that one or more gods exist.
>>
>>4. If God exists and wants things to be as they are, he
>>could not provide proof of his existence because doing
>>so would change things too much.
>
>That was meaningless before, it is still meaningless.

Until you can learn to appreciate the significance of the meaning you must
necessarily remain unable to consider the possibility of God's existence in a
realistic way. Even if you do learn this one thing you still might remain unable
overall, or you could possibly learn to if you could get that far I guess. We'll
probably never know.

>>>Why waste time speculating on
>>>how many unicorns can dance in a hydrogen atom?
>>
>> Why go out of your way to try to persuade people to develop faith in one
>>possibility that you yourself are ashamed you've put your own faith in?
>
>Your question makes no sense.
>
>>LOL...
>
>Laugh all you want. You are only laughing at your own foolishness.
>
>>Actually people like yourself are evidence of God's existence because you are
>>evidence of Satan's existence.
>
>Of course you know you are making a silly claim

No, it's an obvious and significant aspect of what we're discussing.

>that is completely erroneous.
>
>>Does it make any sense that a decent adult human
>>being would want to comdemn other people to Hell if he could, which is what
>>your're really attempting to do?
>
>There is no evidence of an afterlife or of a hell or heaven. Why should
>I waste my time worrying about such attempts to manipulate others

Why do you?

>when
>it is clear that nothing supports those claims?
>
>>If God etc exist and you're successful at
>>persuading people that they don't, then you're doing Satan's bidding for no
>>apparent gain to yourself.
>
>If God existed, God would take care of what He wants.

And you would still be working for Satan's objective. You ARE whether they
exist or not.

>There's no
>evidence that any of your doctrines are true.
>
>>Oh, but YOU can't imagine any of the countless ways
>>that God could exist, so you're willing to risk getting other people sent to
>>eternal tourment just for...to....hmmm....for no gain to yourself so for no
>>decent reason at all. Sounds insane when you think about what you're attempting,
>>so if you're not insane then you're evidence that the beast is working through
>>you, making you evidence of Satan's and therefore God's existence.
>
>So you are Satan's

YOU are working for Satan's objective whether Satan actually exists or not.
How could you possibly fool yourself into thinking differently? Even if he
doesn't exist you are STILL doing what he would want you to do, and what "LeVey"
did in the Satanic Bible.

DanielSan

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Jan 10, 2012, 5:20:52 PM1/10/12

to

False evidence is not evidence.

> . . .
>>>>> try to explain it if you think you do understand.
>>>>
>>>> I don't believe in any gods
>>>
>>> It's possible there are no gods, but I've known that for decades.
>>
>> Yet you go on and on about how there might be a god,
>
> The possibility that God doesn't exist is a dead end.

I assert quite clearly that the God of the Bible does not exist as
described in the Bible. If you wish, I can tell you how I know this.

Free Lunch

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Jan 10, 2012, 7:52:51 PM1/10/12

to

On Tue, 10 Jan 2012 15:05:15 -0800, dh@. wrote in alt.atheism:

>On Sat, 07 Jan 2012 15:09:17 -0600, Free Lunch <lu...@nofreelunch.us> wrote:
>
>>On Sat, 07 Jan 2012 15:21:55 -0800, dh@. wrote in alt.atheism:
>>
>>>On Thu, 05 Jan 2012 18:01:15 -0600, Free Lunch <lu...@nofreelunch.us> wrote:
>>>
>>>>On Thu, 05 Jan 2012 17:15:17 -0800, dh@. wrote in alt.atheism:
>>>>
>>>>>On Mon, 02 Jan 2012 17:51:59 -0600, Free Lunch <lu...@nofreelunch.us> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>On Mon, 02 Jan 2012 13:53:55 -0800, dh@. wrote in alt.atheism:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>I consider that no God
>>>>>>>is having influence on this planet too, but then I leave you WAAAAAAAAAAY behind
>>>>>>>and also consider possibilities that God does exist and does have influence on
>>>>>>>this planet.........
>>>>>>
>>>>>>But you haven't given us any reason that you considered that
>>>>>>possibility.
>>>>>
>>>>> What did I tell you?
>>>>>
>>>>>>Certainly no evidence supports that supposition.
>>>>>
>>>>> Yes it does, even if every bit of evidence is false.
>>>>
>>>>That is nonsense. If it is evidence, it is not false.
>>>
>>> In contrast to that seemingly incredibly naive claim, some of it MUST be
>>>false imo. But then you can't recognise any of it anyway, so you necessarily are
>>>unable to have a realistic opinion about it.
>>
>>Your opinion is of no value in this discussion. If you cannot provide
>>evidence,
>
> The Bible is evidence even if false evidence.

Nonsense. You just repeated the same silly claim that I called you on.
If it is false, it is not evidence. Please learn how words work.

>So are churches. So are mosques. So is the Koran. So is the Book of Mormon.

How are any of these evidence that some gods exist? They are not.

> How about the Satanic Bible? Is it more or less evidence of God's existence
>than the other books mentioned?

None of these books are evidence that any gods exist.

>>>>>try to explain it if you think you do understand.
>>>>
>>>>I don't believe in any gods
>>>
>>> It's possible there are no gods, but I've known that for decades.
>>
>>Yet you go on and on about how there might be a god,
>
> The possibility that God doesn't exist is a dead end. It's possible and
>that's as far as you can go with. In contrast to that you can take the
>possibility that he does as far as you want to go with it, and I take it a lot
>farther than you since you can't get anywhere with it.

What does possibility have to do with it? Why would I care if there
might be some god or other when all of the well-defined gods cannot
possibly exist? I don't really care about the quadrillions of gods that
might be imagined in a drug-induced stupor.

>>despite the total
>>lack of evidence for any such gods. Why do you waste your time defending
>>theist nonsense?
>
> God may or may not exist. So far that's all I've been encouraging you to try
>to learn, and I haven't gone on about any particular theistic beliefs afaik.

What is the point of your allegation that some god may exist? It's a
completely silly exercise when the gods that have been worshipped cannot
exist and the rest of the universe of "possible imaginary creatures that
might really exist if you really try hard to believe" is unlimited. Go
tell your leprechaun friends that I really don't care what they have
done to you.

>>>>and I see no evidence that supports the
>>>>supposition that one or more gods exist.
>>>
>>>4. If God exists and wants things to be as they are, he
>>>could not provide proof of his existence because doing
>>>so would change things too much.
>>
>>That was meaningless before, it is still meaningless.
>
> Until you can learn to appreciate the significance of the meaning you must
>necessarily remain unable to consider the possibility of God's existence in a
>realistic way. Even if you do learn this one thing you still might remain unable
>overall, or you could possibly learn to if you could get that far I guess. We'll
>probably never know.

There is absolutely no significance to the supposition that some god
might exist even though we cannot possibly figure out a way that such a
god might exist without being in conflict with reality.

>>>>Why waste time speculating on
>>>>how many unicorns can dance in a hydrogen atom?
>>>
>>> Why go out of your way to try to persuade people to develop faith in one
>>>possibility that you yourself are ashamed you've put your own faith in?
>>
>>Your question makes no sense.
>>
>>>LOL...
>>
>>Laugh all you want. You are only laughing at your own foolishness.
>>
>>>Actually people like yourself are evidence of God's existence because you are
>>>evidence of Satan's existence.
>>
>>Of course you know you are making a silly claim
>
> No, it's an obvious and significant aspect of what we're discussing.

What is that? Be specific.

>>that is completely erroneous.
>>
>>>Does it make any sense that a decent adult human
>>>being would want to comdemn other people to Hell if he could, which is what
>>>your're really attempting to do?
>>
>>There is no evidence of an afterlife or of a hell or heaven. Why should
>>I waste my time worrying about such attempts to manipulate others
>
> Why do you?

I don't like the fact that so many theists use their false teachings to
manipulate others and control, often for evil purposes or results, the
actions of others. I cannot see how any theism is moral.

>>when
>>it is clear that nothing supports those claims?
>>
>>>If God etc exist and you're successful at
>>>persuading people that they don't, then you're doing Satan's bidding for no
>>>apparent gain to yourself.
>>
>>If God existed, God would take care of what He wants.
>
> And you would still be working for Satan's objective. You ARE whether they
>exist or not.

Once again, you assume that your Satan exists. You claimed earlier,
falsely, that you were not talking about any specific theism. You have
now shown us why your claim is false. You have alleged, once again
without a shred of evidence, that I am "working for Satan's objective."
I don't have any reason to treat Satan differently from any other god,
but Satan is a god specifically identified with Christianity.

>>There's no
>>evidence that any of your doctrines are true.
>>
>>>Oh, but YOU can't imagine any of the countless ways
>>>that God could exist, so you're willing to risk getting other people sent to
>>>eternal tourment just for...to....hmmm....for no gain to yourself so for no
>>>decent reason at all. Sounds insane when you think about what you're attempting,
>>>so if you're not insane then you're evidence that the beast is working through
>>>you, making you evidence of Satan's and therefore God's existence.
>>
>>So you are Satan's

You have intentionally cut what I wrote without acknowledging it. Why
would you do that?

> YOU are working for Satan's objective whether Satan actually exists or not.

That is completely absurd. First, you have no idea what "Satan's
objectives" are because you have never heard from Satan about them.
Satan is an imaginary god perfected by Christians who want to mislead
others.

>How could you possibly fool yourself into thinking differently?

Your claim is absurd because you cannot think clearly or coherently.
Something that does not exist has no objectives.

>Even if he
>doesn't exist you are STILL doing what he would want you to do, and what "LeVey"
>did in the Satanic Bible.

I don't really care what you claim. You are being silly here.

dh

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Jan 12, 2012, 7:27:58 PM1/12/12

to

It sure is.

>> . . .
>>>>>> try to explain it if you think you do understand.
>>>>>
>>>>> I don't believe in any gods
>>>>
>>>> It's possible there are no gods, but I've known that for decades.
>>>
>>> Yet you go on and on about how there might be a god,
>>
>> The possibility that God doesn't exist is a dead end.
>
>I assert quite clearly that the God of the Bible does not exist as
>described in the Bible. If you wish, I can tell you how I know this.

Please do.

DanielSan

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Jan 12, 2012, 4:45:53 PM1/12/12

to

I said I was leaving before but I was just finishing up a couple things
before heading out. But I can show, categorically, that the God of the

Bible does not exist as described in the Bible.

Illusion of Free Will
1. The Bible claims (for example, in Deuteronomy 30) that man has free
will to choose whether to follow God or "turn away".
2. The Bible also claims (for example, in 1 John 3) that God is
omniscient (all knowing).
3. If God knows that I will have spaghetti for dinner tonight, then I
cannot possibly choose the meatloaf, even though I might believe I could
have. I am a robot that is following a predefined program. This simple
little decision about dinner has categorically proven the Bible in error.
4. I am an atheist and it is said that those that "turn away" from God
will have, as an example from Revelation 21, the lake of fire waiting
for me.
5. As God knows that I will "turn away" from him before I'm even born, I
will have no choice but to "turn away" from him after I'm born and I
will be tossed into the "lake of fire".
6. God is not all good like the Bible claims in Romans 8.

The Problem of Evil
1. There are three characteristics of God, as described in the Bible.
He is "all good" (Romans 8), "all knowing" (1 John 3), and "all
powerful" (Jeremiah 32).
2. If God is all good, all knowing, and all powerful, he could not
allow evil to exist--
a. If God is all knowing and all powerful, then God is not all good
as evil exists.
b. If God is all powerful and all good, then God is not all knowing
or he wouldn't allow evil to exist.
c. If God is all good and all knowing, then God is not all powerful
because he can't stop evil from existing.
3. Evil exists so therefore the God of the Bible does not.

It is quite clear from both of these that God is not all good, all
knowing, or all powerful. God does not exist as described in the Bible.

And with that, I bid everyone in alt.atheism a fond adieu until we meet
again. :)

felix_unger

unread,

Jan 12, 2012, 7:51:25 PM1/12/12

to

you're wrong. knowing what you will choose is not controlling your
ability to choose.

>
> The Problem of Evil
> 1. There are three characteristics of God, as described in the Bible.
> He is "all good" (Romans 8), "all knowing" (1 John 3), and "all
> powerful" (Jeremiah 32).
> 2. If God is all good, all knowing, and all powerful, he could not
> allow evil to exist--
> a. If God is all knowing and all powerful, then God is not all good as
> evil exists.
> b. If God is all powerful and all good, then God is not all knowing or
> he wouldn't allow evil to exist.
> c. If God is all good and all knowing, then God is not all powerful
> because he can't stop evil from existing.
> 3. Evil exists so therefore the God of the Bible does not.
>
> It is quite clear from both of these that God is not all good, all
> knowing, or all powerful. God does not exist as described in the Bible.
>
> And with that, I bid everyone in alt.atheism a fond adieu until we
> meet again. :)

hopefully not too soon

--
rgds,

Pete
-------
“If Julia is the answer, then what was the stupid question?!”

dh

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Jan 17, 2012, 8:30:10 PM1/17/12

to

That's so obvious even a strong atheist should be able to figure it out.

dh

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Jan 17, 2012, 8:34:24 PM1/17/12

to

On Thu, 12 Jan 2012 13:45:53 -0800, DanielSan <daniel...@gmail.com> wrote:

>On 1/12/2012 4:27 PM, dh@. wrote:
>> On Tue, 10 Jan 2012 14:20:52 -0800, DanielSan<daniel...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> I assert quite clearly that the God of the Bible does not exist as
>>> described in the Bible. If you wish, I can tell you how I know this.
>>
>> Please do.
>
>I said I was leaving before but I was just finishing up a couple things
>before heading out. But I can show, categorically, that the God of the
>Bible does not exist as described in the Bible.
>
>Illusion of Free Will
>1. The Bible claims (for example, in Deuteronomy 30) that man has free
>will to choose whether to follow God or "turn away".
>2. The Bible also claims (for example, in 1 John 3) that God is
>omniscient (all knowing).
>3. If God knows that I will have spaghetti for dinner tonight, then I
>cannot possibly choose the meatloaf, even though I might believe I could
>have. I am a robot that is following a predefined program. This simple
>little decision about dinner has categorically proven the Bible in error.

No. Anyway I don't believe omnisience or omnipotence are possible meaning
God would be neither and the Bible exagerates, even though he still might know
whether you'll try or not even if he's not litterally omnipotent.

>4. I am an atheist and it is said that those that "turn away"

Not just turn away, but you have to approach him and hope he'll accept you.
It's not like he tries to develop a relationship with you. It's up to you to try
and he might not accept you even if you beg honestly for him to do so.

>from God
>will have, as an example from Revelation 21, the lake of fire waiting
>for me.

Maybe, maybe not. You don't get the nice after life regardless of whether
you get the fire. Maybe most people who don't get accepted by God just die and
there's nothing left of them, while his people get a great afterlife. That's
what I choose to believe if he exists.

>5. As God knows that I will "turn away" from him before I'm even born, I
>will have no choice but to "turn away" from him after I'm born and I
>will be tossed into the "lake of fire".
>6. God is not all good like the Bible claims in Romans 8.

>The Problem of Evil
>1. There are three characteristics of God, as described in the Bible.
>He is "all good" (Romans 8), "all knowing" (1 John 3), and "all
>powerful" (Jeremiah 32).
>2. If God is all good, all knowing, and all powerful, he could not
>allow evil to exist--
> a. If God is all knowing and all powerful, then God is not all good
>as evil exists.
> b. If God is all powerful and all good, then God is not all knowing
>or he wouldn't allow evil to exist.
> c. If God is all good and all knowing, then God is not all powerful
>because he can't stop evil from existing.
>3. Evil exists so therefore the God of the Bible does not.
>
>It is quite clear from both of these that God is not all good, all
>knowing, or all powerful. God does not exist as described in the Bible.

The fact that people have incorrect beliefs about God doesn't mean there is
no God associated with this planet any more than the fact that people have
incorrect beliefs about the sun means that there's no sun.

felix_unger

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Jan 18, 2012, 7:03:09 PM1/18/12

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but he never admits he's wrong

felix_unger

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Jan 18, 2012, 7:11:16 PM1/18/12

to

that's not according to christian teaching, which is that all who
'repent' will be 'saved'

right. it's a matter of fact not belief. however, it can be argued that
'if you don't seek you wont find'

--
rgds,

Pete
-------
“If Julia is the answer, then what was the stupid question?!”

"Dumping the Gillard/Brown Government is the 'greatest moral imperative of our time'"

“Democracy and free speech die on the same day. The Senate passes the carbon tax and the media inquiry begins. George Orwell got it right- he just got the year wrong”

"Julia finally got something right. Older people don't vote Labor, because they have seen too many incompetent, mismanaging, money-wasting Labor governments"

"If the WORLD as a whole cut ALL emissions tomorrow, the average temperature of the planet's not going to drop for several hundred years, perhaps over on thousand years" - Tim Flannery, Climate Commissioner

"It is a remarkable fact that despite the worldwide expenditure of perhaps US$50 billion since 1990, and the efforts of tens of thousands of scientists worldwide, no human climate signal has yet been detected that is distinct from natural variation" - Bob Carter, Research Professor of Geology, James Cook University, Townsville

"Currently, China and India combined emit 20 times as much as Australia each day, and that factor is increasing rapidly. Australia's annual savings by 2020 could be emitted by China and India within five days" - Dr. David Evans former Govt Climate Adviser.

“What I see is a country bravely beating along to the agenda of some ideological people, in this case the socialist left of the ALP and the Greens, to take away what is a natural advantage. At the end of the day, we are paying someone else to use our coal” - Peter Costello, former Federal Treasurer - http://tinyurl.com/costello-carbon-tax

Carbon Dioxide Tax: Get the facts! .. http://tinyurl.com/axe-the-tax

The Science is now settled on Global Warming .. http://tinyurl.com/3ufy3lq

The corruption of science .. http://tinyurl.com/scientific-untruths

Labors Debt: what will it cost YOU! .. http://tinyurl.com/Labors-debt

“We have a treasurer who's effectively announced he's a fiscal joke and that the prime minister hasn't a political clue. We've got very low Federal Government debt because John Howard and Peter Costello paid off the debt built up by the Keating Labor government with its budget deficits. All the debt we now have is down to Swan and his two prime ministers Kevin Rudd and Gillard. In the four years he's been Treasurer, he will have racked up total deficits adding to $167 billion by the end of this financial year. Swan has had four budgets, four deficits, averaging $42 billion a year. And then we are expected to believe, the budget bottom line will leap, just, into surplus in the next year. I don't” - Terry McCrann

The Working with Children check is a joke! .. http://tinyurl.com/insane-vcat
Our Kids at Risk! .. http://tinyurl.com/crims-work-with-kids

“Wait until users find out smart meters charge in half-hour blocks at the rate of the highest power-using appliance being used in that half hour. Turn your electric kettle on and that’s what rate you pay for 30 minutes”

DanielSan

unread,

Jan 18, 2012, 7:20:05 PM1/18/12

to

Assuming one is not all-powerful like the Bible claims of this deity.

>> That's so obvious even a strong atheist should be able to figure it out.
>
> but he never admits he's wrong

Me or dh@?

Knowing what I will choose makes me into a robot because I cannot choose
anything other than what God knows I will choose. Again, if God knows
that I'm going to reject him and that I will pay dearly for this, but
God allowed me to be created anyway, then God is not all-good like the
Bible claims.

Again, if God knows I'm going to eat spaghetti tonight, I cannot, no
matter how much I believe I can, choose the meatloaf.

dh

unread,

Jan 30, 2012, 3:02:58 PM1/30/12

to

Then he must either stay wrong or dishonestly pretend he thinks he is even
when he really does know better.

dh

unread,

Jan 30, 2012, 3:17:32 PM1/30/12

to

Don't let it bother you any more than the fact that you know most dogs are
likely to enjoy a nice ribeye steak.

>Again, if God knows
>that I'm going to reject him and that I will pay dearly for this, but
>God allowed me to be created anyway, then God is not all-good like the
>Bible claims.

Agreed. Hopefully in such cases it will just be nothing at all instead of
eternal torment or eternal paradise.

>Again, if God knows I'm going to eat spaghetti tonight, I cannot, no
>matter how much I believe I can, choose the meatloaf.

It's still up to you. God just knows what you're going to do if he exists,
but he doesn't make you go one way or the other in most case. If he does exist
you still might end up getting paradise if you open your frightened little mind
up enough to give it a try, so quit bitching.

DanielSan

unread,

Jan 30, 2012, 3:31:37 PM1/30/12

to

I will ask you what I've asked others:

There's a choice coming up for me. I could choose option X or I could
choose option Y. Myself, I don't know which option to take. God knows
I'm going to choose option X.

Now, my question is: Is it possible for me to choose option Y?

dh

unread,

Jan 30, 2012, 3:33:29 PM1/30/12

to

That doesn't mean he'll let you know he really does exist while you're still
alive.

The approach to God by the human has certainly always been a very
significant part of the relationship from everything I've heard and read.

DanielSan

unread,

Jan 30, 2012, 3:35:56 PM1/30/12

to

Relevance?

>
>> Again, if God knows
>> that I'm going to reject him and that I will pay dearly for this, but
>> God allowed me to be created anyway, then God is not all-good like the
>> Bible claims.
>
> Agreed. Hopefully in such cases it will just be nothing at all instead of
> eternal torment or eternal paradise.
>
>> Again, if God knows I'm going to eat spaghetti tonight, I cannot, no
>> matter how much I believe I can, choose the meatloaf.
>
> It's still up to you. God just knows what you're going to do if he exists,
> but he doesn't make you go one way or the other in most case. If he does exist
> you still might end up getting paradise if you open your frightened little mind
> up enough to give it a try, so quit bitching.

Not bitching. Just asking the question. And you seem incapable of
answering it:

If God knows I'm going to eat the spaghetti tonight, is it possible for
me to choose the meatloaf?

dh

unread,

Feb 1, 2012, 3:18:10 PM2/1/12

to

Him knowing what you will do doesn't restrict WHAT YOU decide to do afawk.
You know a dog will choose a ribeye over a flower and a hummingbird will choose
a flower over a ribeye, but THAT is not what makes them a robot.

>>> Again, if God knows
>>> that I'm going to reject him and that I will pay dearly for this, but
>>> God allowed me to be created anyway, then God is not all-good like the
>>> Bible claims.
>>
>> Agreed. Hopefully in such cases it will just be nothing at all instead of
>> eternal torment or eternal paradise.
>>
>>> Again, if God knows I'm going to eat spaghetti tonight, I cannot, no
>>> matter how much I believe I can, choose the meatloaf.
>>
>> It's still up to you. God just knows what you're going to do if he exists,
>> but he doesn't make you go one way or the other in most case. If he does exist
>> you still might end up getting paradise if you open your frightened little mind
>> up enough to give it a try, so quit bitching.
>
>Not bitching.

You apparently have some objection to the idea of him having you figured
out.

>Just asking the question. And you seem incapable of
>answering it:
>
>If God knows I'm going to eat the spaghetti tonight, is it possible for
>me to choose the meatloaf?

If he knows you won't then how could you? If you did, then he couldn't know
you would not. The nice part is it doesn't matter. What does matter is what God
does, if he exists. If he doesn't exist then nothing about the concept means
anything but a waste of time. If you're looking for assurance that he doesn't
exist you can forget about that imo, since I've been on the lookout for it for
decades and the only evidence I've noticed is that he does exist, whether he
truly does or not.

dh

unread,

Feb 1, 2012, 3:18:40 PM2/1/12

to

I'll tell you again that if he knows you'll do one thing then it means you
can't do something else even if YOU think you will, or whatever mind games
you're trying to play. If he knows then he knows and if he doesn't then he
doesn't. That's all there is to that.

Dutch

unread,

Feb 1, 2012, 11:36:09 PM2/1/12

to

<dh@.> wrote

> anything but a waste of time. If you're looking for assurance that he
> doesn't
> exist you can forget about that imo, since I've been on the lookout for it
> for
> decades and the only evidence I've noticed is that he does exist, whether
> he
> truly does or not.

Please share, what evidence was that?

DanielSan

unread,

Feb 2, 2012, 12:03:57 AM2/2/12

to

"As far as we know"?

> You know a dog will choose a ribeye over a flower and a hummingbird will choose
> a flower over a ribeye, but THAT is not what makes them a robot.
>
>>>> Again, if God knows
>>>> that I'm going to reject him and that I will pay dearly for this, but
>>>> God allowed me to be created anyway, then God is not all-good like the
>>>> Bible claims.
>>>
>>> Agreed. Hopefully in such cases it will just be nothing at all instead of
>>> eternal torment or eternal paradise.
>>>
>>>> Again, if God knows I'm going to eat spaghetti tonight, I cannot, no
>>>> matter how much I believe I can, choose the meatloaf.
>>>
>>> It's still up to you. God just knows what you're going to do if he exists,
>>> but he doesn't make you go one way or the other in most case. If he does exist
>>> you still might end up getting paradise if you open your frightened little mind
>>> up enough to give it a try, so quit bitching.
>>
>> Not bitching.
>
> You apparently have some objection to the idea of him having you figured
> out.

You can't answer the question, can you?

CAN I CHOOSE THE MEATLOAF? YES? OR NO?

It's a very simple question.

>
>> Just asking the question. And you seem incapable of
>> answering it:
>>
>> If God knows I'm going to eat the spaghetti tonight, is it possible for
>> me to choose the meatloaf?
>
> If he knows you won't then how could you? If you did, then he couldn't know
> you would not. The nice part is it doesn't matter. What does matter is what God
> does, if he exists. If he doesn't exist then nothing about the concept means
> anything but a waste of time. If you're looking for assurance that he doesn't
> exist you can forget about that imo, since I've been on the lookout for it for
> decades and the only evidence I've noticed is that he does exist, whether he
> truly does or not.

The thing is, I am told that if I accept Jesus as my savior or do
whatever is required of me to get into heaven and if I don't, I'll
suffer unimaginably, but God knows PRIOR TO MY BIRTH, that I will not do
that, then, well, I've been marked for unimaginable suffering even
before the creation of the universe. I may think I have a choice, but I
really don't. I have to pick the spaghetti. I have to "reject God". I
can't choose the meatloaf. I can't "choose God".

So, the simple question I have to ask you that you are apparently unable
to answer, which is, in my opinion at the heart of the situation is: Do
I have the free will to choose an option that God doesn't know?

DanielSan

unread,

Feb 2, 2012, 12:04:41 AM2/2/12

to

On 2/1/2012 12:18 PM, dh@. wrote:

But the outcome is apparently so dire if I "pick" the wrong choice that
God knows I'm going to pick anyway. That is sadistic, is it not?

George Plimpton

unread,

Feb 2, 2012, 12:57:22 AM2/2/12

to

Oh, you know - rocks, sticks, the color blue, Rolling Stones songs,
iPhones - shit like that. Fuckwit believes everything is "evidence" for
the cracker Southern Baptist god in which he unquestioningly believes.

George Plimpton

unread,

Feb 2, 2012, 1:07:23 AM2/2/12

to

On 2/1/2012 9:03 PM, DanielSan wrote:
> Fuckwit David Harrison, idiot cracker, lied:

>> On Mon, 30 Jan 2012 12:35:56 -0800, DanielSan<daniel...@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>

>>> Fuckwit David Harrison, idiot cracker, lied:

>>>> On Wed, 18 Jan 2012 16:20:05 -0800,
>>>> DanielSan<daniel...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 1/18/2012 4:03 PM, felix_unger wrote:

>>>>>> Fuckwit David Harrison, idiot cracker, lied:

>>>>>>> On Fri, 13 Jan 2012 11:51:25 +1100, felix_unger<m...@nothere.com>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 13-January-2012 8:45 AM, DanielSan wrote:

>>>>>>>>> Fuckwit David Harrison, idiot cracker, lied:

Ha ha ha ha ha! That's how Fuckwit writes all the time. He uses the
silliest collection of weird locutions and stale Usenet abbreviations
you've ever seen. Has he used the "why do you disagree with yourself"
construction on you yet?

Let me know if you want some history on this joker. Rest assured, he's
not a challenge.

>
>> You know a dog will choose a ribeye over a flower and a hummingbird
>> will choose
>> a flower over a ribeye, but THAT is not what makes them a robot.
>>
>>>>> Again, if God knows
>>>>> that I'm going to reject him and that I will pay dearly for this, but
>>>>> God allowed me to be created anyway, then God is not all-good like the
>>>>> Bible claims.
>>>>
>>>> Agreed. Hopefully in such cases it will just be nothing at all
>>>> instead of
>>>> eternal torment or eternal paradise.
>>>>
>>>>> Again, if God knows I'm going to eat spaghetti tonight, I cannot, no
>>>>> matter how much I believe I can, choose the meatloaf.
>>>>
>>>> It's still up to you. God just knows what you're going to do if he
>>>> exists,
>>>> but he doesn't make you go one way or the other in most case. If he
>>>> does exist
>>>> you still might end up getting paradise if you open your frightened
>>>> little mind
>>>> up enough to give it a try, so quit bitching.
>>>
>>> Not bitching.
>>
>> You apparently have some objection to the idea of him having you figured
>> out.
>
> You can't answer the question, can you?

Fuckwit can't answer any reasonable question. If you ever do finally
pin him down, he'll later say that whatever answer he gave you was a
"mistake in terminology." He's truly an idiot - a colossal fuckwit.

George Plimpton

unread,

Feb 2, 2012, 1:27:41 AM2/2/12

to

Do you know you're trying to converse on theology with a high school
dropout who works as a sort of handyman at an Atlanta area microbrewery?
I'm not kidding you. Fuckwit David Harrison, who usually just goes by
Fuckwit - aka 'dh@.' - is an inbred cracker who lives in the northeast
outskirts of Atlanta - a KKK stronghold called Buford, GA.

Fuckwit is one of the most egregious examples of the Dunning-Kruger
effect you'll ever encounter.

Years ago, in alt.animals.ethics.vegetarian, Fuckwit once said that if
livestock animals no longer were bred due to political pressure by
"vegans", those livestock animals who therefore never would be born
would experience some kind of "loss", because they wouldn't "get to
experience life." It's an absurd position, which he realized soon
enough, and due to the realization he tried to claim that he had
"misspoken" - that it was a "mistake in terminology." It was nothing of
the sort, of course - it's exactly the kind of preposterous thing an
uneducated, uncomprehending, unthinking cracker like Fuckwit would
believe and blurt out.

If you're enjoying yourself bantering with Fuckwit, then knock yourself
out - have a blast. But if you're trying to have a meaningful
conversation with him, and especially if you hold out hope of persuading
him of something reasonable, then you're pissing away your time. The
expression "dumber than a box of hammers" was coined expressly to
describe Fuckwit David Harrison.

felix_unger

unread,

Feb 2, 2012, 1:50:21 AM2/2/12

to

yes, it's a simple question with a simple answer. yes, you can choose
the meatloaf in which case an omniscient god would know that rather than
that you were going to eat spaghetti. why would god have known you were
going to eat spaghetti if you weren't going to anyway?

It's not difficult really. we are having this discussion in
alt.agnosticism btw, in the thread 'does the soul exist'. you mite like
to look at my arguments there. but note that it is not a debate to
determine the existence of god. the debate is about whether human free
will can co-exist with an omniscient god. there's no question in my mind
that it can. I don't even see what the conflict is.

--
rgds,

Pete
-------
“We sensible agnostics laugh in your general direction”

“Agnostics frustrate the hell out of atheists because they have no target to fire at”

“I'll take a position on the existence of God, when you can tell me why I have to”

“Atheists have tunnel vision. There's so much they don't see”

“Snip, run and Lie ... the atheist Trinity”

The atheists moral dilema .. http://altatheismfaq.blogspot.com/

“Atheist NG's are endless posturing, ad hom bitch fights and little else, they are parasitic, sustained by the creative attacks of their opponents and their ritualised, scripted, responses. The vacuum occurs because they only have ONE idea, and that is a mere denial that something exists, an impotent, ineffectual, useless sub branch of Nihilism, not enough to sustain an interesting after dinner chat, let alone a great and enduring civilisation”

“Hypocrisy and irrationality are the only terms which can appropriately describe the atheist obsessions with critiquing others who don't share their non-belief “
“It is absurd self delusion for atheists to claim that they alone should be judged by their self-defining, self-serving, propaganda, rather than the REAL WORLD actions and consequences of atheism throughout history”

"It is a sure thing that science will prove abiogenesis before creationism can disprove Evolution"

"I argue for TRUTH against error, wherever it is found. Those not interested in HONEST rational discussion and debate should just bugger off!"

felix_unger

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Feb 2, 2012, 1:57:50 AM2/2/12

to

that's wrong. the idea of an omniscient god is that it knows everything.
in this example it would not 'know' he was going to choose option X
because he wasn't! it would know he was going to choose option Y. so the
question doesn't even arise. there is no conflict between human free
will and an omniscient god existing.

> or whatever mind games
> you're trying to play. If he knows then he knows and if he doesn't then he
> doesn't. That's all there is to that.

no, an omniscient god cannot not know.

DanielSan

unread,

Feb 2, 2012, 1:58:46 AM2/2/12

to

So, if God knows I'm going to choose the meatloaf, can I choose the
spaghetti?

I'll stick to alt.atheism. Thanks.

> but note that it is not a debate to
> determine the existence of god.

Atheists are allowed to speak on this subject, though. Oh, and I'm an
agnostic as well as an atheist.

> the debate is about whether human free
> will can co-exist with an omniscient god. there's no question in my mind
> that it can. I don't even see what the conflict is.

Here's where the conflict is:

There's this choice coming up. Even before the creation of the universe,
God knows I'm going to choose option X over option Y. The universe is
created, billions of years later, the choice comes up. Both option X
and option Y are the same (the hummingbird/dog claim is a non-sequitur)
value to me.

For example: In the Half-Life game, you have a choice of taking the left
fork or the right fork and they both lead to the same location and they
both take an equal amount of time to traverse so there's really no
benefit or detriment to either choice. However, I choose left because,
well, I chose it.

You say that God knew I would choose the left fork even before he
created the universe.

So, now the question becomes: If God knew I'm going to pick the left
fork, was it ever even possible for me to pick the right fork?
Remember: God knows I'm going to pick the left fork. God knows I'm
going to pick the spaghetti. God knows I'm going to "reject God".

The fork and the spaghetti are pretty innocuous. The "reject God",
apparently, isn't.

So, if I can't pick the right fork....

DanielSan

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Feb 2, 2012, 2:00:19 AM2/2/12

to

So, I can't pick option X.

felix_unger

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Feb 2, 2012, 2:10:21 AM2/2/12

to

christian teaching is that god will if you're honestly looking. Matthew
7:7-8 "Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock,
and it shall be opened unto you: For every one that asketh receiveth;
and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be
opened", Hebrew 11:6 "But without faith it is impossible to please him:
for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a
rewarder of them that diligently seek him", etc.,

Yap

unread,

Feb 2, 2012, 3:30:21 AM2/2/12

to

how do you 'know'?

>> So, the simple question I have to ask you that you are apparently unable
>> to answer, which is, in my opinion at the heart of the situation is: Do
>> I have the free will to choose an option that God doesn't know?
> There is no pixie/god to do anything.....the fear in the hearts of the
> loons are false, self inflicted.
>
>

felix_unger

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Feb 2, 2012, 6:44:11 AM2/2/12

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we HAVE free will. there's nothing stopping you from making your own
decisions, is there?

> I could pick the spaghetti or the meatloaf then. It really is my
> decision. :)
>
> I don't see any evidence for this or any other deity. I see an awful
> lot of people claiming that they have evidence but they can never
> provide it.

There is 'evidence'. believers are evidence, churches, mosques,
synagogues, temples, literature, 'sacred' texts, testimony, etc., are
all 'evidence'. atheists just dismiss this evidence.

> All they have is either one assertion layered over another
> or...well...illogic.

atheists have only one unprovable assertion.. that no gods exist

>
> You'd think that, if a deity like that actually existed, that it would
> better followers.
>

DanielSan

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Feb 2, 2012, 1:41:42 PM2/2/12

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I don't go there because I choose not to.

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Feb 3, 2012, 12:55:08 AM2/3/12

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you're asking the wrong question. ask yourself this.. why would God know
you're going to play golf next Wednesday if you're not? god would not
know you are going to play golf. get it?

> I might believe I can change my mind, but if God already knows I'm
> going to play golf, then I can't play tennis because God already knows
> I'm going to play golf.
>

God doesn't know you're going to play golf, because you are not going to
play golf, you're going to play tennis, so God knows that you're going
to play tennis, not golf. there is no conflict. you could change your
mid a dozen times, it wouldn't matter, because God knows what will
actually happen.

huge

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Feb 3, 2012, 1:00:17 AM2/3/12

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Well, maybe you should tell us exactly, precisely what the 'idea' is.

felix_unger

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Feb 3, 2012, 1:04:25 AM2/3/12

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On 03-February-2012 5:45 AM, DanielSan wrote:

> On 2/2/2012 3:44 AM, felix_unger wrote:
>> On 02-February-2012 7:38 PM, DanielSan wrote:
>>
>>> On 2/2/2012 12:30 AM, Yap wrote:
>>>> On Feb 2, 1:03 pm, DanielSan<danielsan1...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> So, the simple question I have to ask you that you are apparently
>>>>> unable
>>>>> to answer, which is, in my opinion at the heart of the situation
>>>>> is: Do
>>>>> I have the free will to choose an option that God doesn't know?
>>>>
>>>> There is no pixie/god to do anything.....the fear in the hearts of the
>>>> loons are false, self inflicted.
>>>
>>> Well, that is a way for man to have free will.
>>
>> we HAVE free will. there's nothing stopping you from making your own
>> decisions, is there?
>
> If there isn't an all-powerful deity that knows everything, then no
> there isn't anything stopping me from making my own decisions.

or turning it around.. there is nothing stopping you from making your
own decisions, it's a fact, so the existence of God must be irrelevant
to your decision making. ie. either God does not exist or God's
existence has no effect on your decision making

>
>>
>>> I could pick the spaghetti or the meatloaf then. It really is my
>>> decision. :)
>>>
>>> I don't see any evidence for this or any other deity. I see an awful
>>> lot of people claiming that they have evidence but they can never
>>> provide it.
>>
>> There is 'evidence'. believers are evidence, churches, mosques,
>> synagogues, temples, literature, 'sacred' texts, testimony, etc., are
>> all 'evidence'. atheists just dismiss this evidence.
>
> Those pieces of evidence are evidence that the religions exist, not
> that the deity exists.

So why do the religions exist? they are evidence that people find
meaning/purpose in belief in God. they are evidence that the deity may
exist.

unread,

Feb 3, 2012, 1:08:55 AM2/3/12

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Pretty severe requirements. I don't think your god exists.

DanielSan

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Feb 3, 2012, 1:10:01 AM2/3/12

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No. I'm just asking an uncomfortable question.

> ask yourself this.. why would God know
> you're going to play golf next Wednesday if you're not? god would not
> know you are going to play golf. get it?

Because God knows I'm going to play golf next Wednesday, I have to.

>> I might believe I can change my mind, but if God already knows I'm
>> going to play golf, then I can't play tennis because God already knows
>> I'm going to play golf.
>>
>
> God doesn't know you're going to play golf, because you are not going to
> play golf, you're going to play tennis, so God knows that you're going
> to play tennis, not golf.

But then I can't play golf.

> there is no conflict. you could change your
> mid a dozen times, it wouldn't matter, because God knows what will
> actually happen.

Yep. I could not change my mind to something that God doesn't know.
God doesn't know I will ultimately change my mind to X.

felix_unger

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Feb 3, 2012, 1:13:59 AM2/3/12

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To me it's as obvious and plain as the nose on your face. I just don't
see why they don't understand it.

DanielSan

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Feb 3, 2012, 1:16:54 AM2/3/12

to

On 2/2/2012 10:04 PM, felix_unger wrote:
> On 03-February-2012 5:45 AM, DanielSan wrote:
>
>> On 2/2/2012 3:44 AM, felix_unger wrote:
>>> On 02-February-2012 7:38 PM, DanielSan wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 2/2/2012 12:30 AM, Yap wrote:
>>>>> On Feb 2, 1:03 pm, DanielSan<danielsan1...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> So, the simple question I have to ask you that you are apparently
>>>>>> unable
>>>>>> to answer, which is, in my opinion at the heart of the situation
>>>>>> is: Do
>>>>>> I have the free will to choose an option that God doesn't know?
>>>>>
>>>>> There is no pixie/god to do anything.....the fear in the hearts of the
>>>>> loons are false, self inflicted.
>>>>
>>>> Well, that is a way for man to have free will.
>>>
>>> we HAVE free will. there's nothing stopping you from making your own
>>> decisions, is there?
>>
>> If there isn't an all-powerful deity that knows everything, then no
>> there isn't anything stopping me from making my own decisions.
>
> or turning it around.. there is nothing stopping you from making your
> own decisions, it's a fact, so the existence of God must be irrelevant
> to your decision making. ie. either God does not exist or God's
> existence has no effect on your decision making

But if God exists, and he's all knowing, then he knows that decision I
will ultimately make before even the creation of the universe. I can't
make any other decision.

>
>>
>>>
>>>> I could pick the spaghetti or the meatloaf then. It really is my
>>>> decision. :)
>>>>
>>>> I don't see any evidence for this or any other deity. I see an awful
>>>> lot of people claiming that they have evidence but they can never
>>>> provide it.
>>>
>>> There is 'evidence'. believers are evidence, churches, mosques,
>>> synagogues, temples, literature, 'sacred' texts, testimony, etc., are
>>> all 'evidence'. atheists just dismiss this evidence.
>>
>> Those pieces of evidence are evidence that the religions exist, not
>> that the deity exists.
>
> So why do the religions exist?

Arrogance? Ego? A need to control others?

> they are evidence that people find
> meaning/purpose in belief in God.

People find meaning/purpose in a lot of things, including things that
don't exist. I found meaning/purpose in two pan-dimensional beings that
look like mice in our reality and were the architects of a
super-computer called Earth that was destroyed by Vogons before the
question to the answer for live, the universe, everything was calculated
to build a hyperspace bypass.

Note: This is fiction. As far as we know, the pan-dimensional "mice",
the super-computer that is the Earth, the Vogons and the hyperspace
bypass are all fictional constructs of Douglas Adams. They do not exist.

> they are evidence that the deity may
> exist.

May? I need something a bit more confident.

felix_unger

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Feb 3, 2012, 1:19:12 AM2/3/12

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not really. anyone being objective cannot say that billions of ppl
believing in something is evidence of nothing. the whole world
celebrates the birth of Jesus, and billions of dollars are spent doing
so. that is evidence that cannot be treated lightly or dismissed as
being on par with evidence for the tooth fairy, as atheists like to do.
however much you may dislike to admit it, what I said is true.

> Humans are the fiction-creating animal.
> You want a fiction? Almost anyone on the street can come up with
> one of their own in seconds.
>
>
>>
>>
>

felix_unger

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Feb 3, 2012, 1:19:54 AM2/3/12

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On 03-February-2012 5:08 PM, huge wrote:

no problem

DanielSan

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Feb 3, 2012, 1:21:21 AM2/3/12

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Me, too. I cannot, under any circumstances, pick something that God
doesn't know about. I may believe I am making a decision for myself. I
could change my mind a thousand times, but ultimately, I am forced by
this foreknowledge, to pick only one option: The option that God knew I
would pick.

DanielSan

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Feb 3, 2012, 1:23:40 AM2/3/12

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All of them are buying billions of dollars in gifts to celebrate the
birth of Jesus? Or to celebrate the holiday and play the role of "Santa
Claus", the rotund bearded gentleman who takes flying reindeer from his
North Pole workshop and delivers gifts to billions of kids all in one night?

huge

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Feb 3, 2012, 1:25:20 AM2/3/12

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I am being objective, and I say billions of people believing in gods
are benighted.

> the whole world
> celebrates the birth of Jesus, and billions of dollars are spent doing
> so. that is evidence

No, you are engaging in the well known "bandwagon" fallacy.
Look it up.

> that cannot be treated lightly or dismissed as
> being on par with evidence for the tooth fairy, as atheists like to do.
> however much you may dislike to admit it, what I said is true.

unread,

Feb 3, 2012, 2:43:37 AM2/3/12

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you're not even trying to understand

>
>> ask yourself this.. why would God know
>> you're going to play golf next Wednesday if you're not? god would not
>> know you are going to play golf. get it?
>
> Because God knows I'm going to play golf next Wednesday, I have to.

wrong

>
>>> I might believe I can change my mind, but if God already knows I'm
>>> going to play golf, then I can't play tennis because God already knows
>>> I'm going to play golf.
>>>
>>
>> God doesn't know you're going to play golf, because you are not going to
>> play golf, you're going to play tennis, so God knows that you're going
>> to play tennis, not golf.
>
> But then I can't play golf.

wrong

>
>> there is no conflict. you could change your
>> mid a dozen times, it wouldn't matter, because God knows what will
>> actually happen.
>
> Yep. I could not change my mind to something that God doesn't know.
> God doesn't know I will ultimately change my mind to X.
>
>

I've done my best to explain it to you. you'll have to find someone else
to try to make you see what is just plain logic. or.. ok.. I'll try one
more time. this is the last attempt. if you don't get it now, you never
will..

I am watching you play a chess match, and because I am a chess master, I
can see that you are making the wrong moves, and will ultimately lose
the game. how is my knowledge affecting the moves you make?

felix_unger

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Feb 3, 2012, 2:45:17 AM2/3/12

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wrong

DanielSan

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Feb 3, 2012, 2:45:53 AM2/3/12

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Actually, you aren't. I am trying to but you keep repeating the same thing.

>
>>
>>> ask yourself this.. why would God know
>>> you're going to play golf next Wednesday if you're not? god would not
>>> know you are going to play golf. get it?
>>
>> Because God knows I'm going to play golf next Wednesday, I have to.
>
> wrong

Why?

unread,

Feb 3, 2012, 8:21:08 AM2/3/12

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of course I should have done so immediately

> Obviously you sensed that to do so might bring your world view
> crashing around your head.

no

>
> All right, then go and look up:
> Appeal to Popularity
> Argument by Consensus
> Argumentum ad Populum
> Authority of the Many
>
> You _DO_ have access to Google, DuckDuckGo, and other search engines?
> Why not just give it a little nudge -- being purposely ignorant is no
> way to go through life, sonny.

thanks, but if I need your advice I'll ask for it

bye!

huge

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Feb 3, 2012, 8:27:56 AM2/3/12

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Oh, you need my advice as badly as anyone I've come across in a while.
If you actually believe the bandwagon fallacy, then you are simply,
and completely, wrong. Being ignorant is your right, but it's a poor
choice.

felix_unger

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Feb 3, 2012, 5:36:59 PM2/3/12

to

I knew what you were saying, but it didn't apply to my argument. If you
thought I was arguing that God exists you were mistaken, and that is
probably due to the snipping. you would need to read further back in the
thread to know that my argument is against the claim that there is 'no
evidence' for the existence of god.

felix_unger

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Feb 3, 2012, 6:01:39 PM2/3/12

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Feb 4, 2012, 6:28:42 AM2/4/12

to

Me? I'm not the one asserting an omnisicient, omnipotent deity. I'm
just trying to speak on the subject.

> it all comes down to belief.
> theology is not my thing really, so you're asking the wrong person. I
> just argue for what is possible or not rationally, and rationally there
> is no conflict between human free will and an omniscient God existing.

Rationally, you can't say that I can choose an option that God doesn't
know. Therefore, I am required, by this omniscience, to basically
follow the "programmed course" that this deity already knows I'll
follow. I cannot possibly deviate. I may think I can, but I can't.

>
>

felix_unger

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Feb 4, 2012, 6:43:24 AM2/4/12

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neither am I, and nor have I been, and you should know that by now

> I'm just trying to speak on the subject.

as am I

James Warren

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Feb 4, 2012, 11:36:10 AM2/4/12

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If you have have evidence for the existence of God please show us what that evidence is.

--
-jw

felix_unger

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Feb 4, 2012, 7:00:11 PM2/4/12

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yes, that is the theory, doctrine, belief, whatever you want to call it.
It's hard to believe tho isn't it? - that there can be concurrent
knowledge of the past, present, and future. but possibly easier to
believe if we consider that time does not exist. that is another
discussion I would love to get into. also relevant is the idea that some
of the atoms in our bodies may once have been part of a star. in Genesis
it says that God made man from the dust of the ground. that's the only
part of the biblical creation story I find palatable.

>
>>
>>>
>>> I keep telling you you're looking at it the wrong way. divine
>>> omniscience simply means that God knows what you will do/decide,
>>> nothing more than that
>>>
>>>> Therefore, I am required, by this omniscience, to basically follow
>>>> the "programmed course" that this deity already knows I'll follow. I
>>>> cannot possibly deviate. I may think I can, but I can't.
>>>
>>> no. I've explained it as well as I can. if you can't get your head
>>> around it, I suggest that you just forget about it
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>

felix_unger

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Feb 4, 2012, 7:02:57 PM2/4/12

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According to the the doctrine of divine omniscience God knows every
decision you are going to make.

DanielSan

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Feb 4, 2012, 8:53:09 PM2/4/12

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Even a deity outside of time (in other words, past, present and future
is all the same to it) would deny free will because it asserts that I
can only finally choose one option: the option God knows I will pick.

I am not outside of time. I exist in a linear time (from birth, through
life, to death). My choices come to me in this forward motion of time.
God, before creating the universe, already knows my decisions. I
can't make another decision.