Re: Anybody here hypnotized?
Ganesh J. Acharya
wrote:
> On Feb 9, 7:59�ｿｽam, James Beck <jdbeck11...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Mon, 8 Feb 2010 04:17:00 -0800 (PST), Tom McDonald
>
> > <kilt...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >On Feb 7, 9:46 pm, "Ganesh J. Acharya" <ganeshjacha...@gmail.com>
> > >wrote:
> > >> Anyone here at TO been hypnotized? I have not so far been, so, I would
> > >> like to know more about it.
>
> > >> I've heard the following:-
> > >> 1. A hypnotist can take control of a person without their knowledge...
>
> > >> Any study?
>
> > >I had a class in therapeutic hypnotism in grad school. I was
> > >hypnotized by someone else; I hypnotized myself; and I hypnotized a
> > >couple of other people. In no case did I, or could I have, "take[n]
> > >control of a person without their knowledge".
>
> > >I did make a woman experience being a fish (a musky, to be precise).
> > >She found the experience very strange, and completely immersive (oh, a
> > >pun!); �ｿｽbut told me afterward that she had been willing to engage in
> > >the experience as it was happening. IOW, even hypnotized, she felt in
> > >control enough to decide whether or not to follow my suggestions. She
> > >said she trusted me, but had been aware of her capacity to choose.
>
> > >I have since �ｿｽplayed around with the techniques on people without
> > >their knowledge a few times in social situations. In no case did I get
> > >anyone into a full trance, although some told me they felt oddly at
> > >ease and rested.
>
> > >(Wonder what Nando thinks about this? :-) )
>
> > That's interesting. I was trained in NLP in the Army
> > (interrogator/debriefer). I have been in trance many times. I would
> > say that inducing trance in others is very easy, but it takes
> > practice. Whether you can entrance people and make them do things that
> > they don't want to do is, at best, conjectural; there's no way to know
> > what they want to do. However, it seems to me that if they're coming
> > to you for help, they want to be helped. Likewise, if they are
> > engaging in antisocial behavior, I wouldn't dismiss the possibility
> > that they were looking for an excuse.
>
> > It's less clear that a source really wants to give you information,
> > but fear of the possible alternatives is a factor. As for 'taking
> > control' over people without their knowledge, I'd give it a qualified
> > 'yes.' Among other things, you can interrupt the process of going to
> > sleep, deeply plant commands �ｿｽthat make people happy when you're happy
> > and fear you when you're not. You can also gaslight people very
> > easily. These are fairly weak forms of control.
>
> > I have also heard anecdotal evidence from people that I consider
> > reliable of deeper levels of control that produced anti-social
> > behavior. Again however, it isn't clear that the subjects involved
> > were acting against their will.
>
> > Studies of hypnosis are deeply suspect for those and other reasons. In
> > particular, an untalented practitioner never gets anyone into trance,
> > so the best you can do is test the joint hypothesis that the
> > practitioner is sufficiently competent and the subject changes
> > behavior in response.
>
> > I think the evidence on the broader question of the induction of
> > altered states is less ambiguous.
>
> Thanks "James Beck", I needed to know if hypnosis can be introduced
> without the knowledge of the subject. I have again heard about a
> jewelry theft here in local where a hypnotist stole jewelry using
> hypnotism.
I've CC'd this to sci.psychology.misc as well.
http://tinyurl.com/yca4weg
aganunitsi
wrote:
> On Feb 11, 9:50锟絘m, "Ganesh J. Acharya" <ganeshjacha...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Feb 9, 7:59锟絘m, James Beck <jdbeck11...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > > On Mon, 8 Feb 2010 04:17:00 -0800 (PST), Tom McDonald
>
> > > <kilt...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > >On Feb 7, 9:46 pm, "Ganesh J. Acharya" <ganeshjacha...@gmail.com>
> > > >wrote:
> > > >> Anyone here at TO been hypnotized? I have not so far been, so, I would
> > > >> like to know more about it.
>
> > > >> I've heard the following:-
> > > >> 1. A hypnotist can take control of a person without their knowledge...
>
> > > >> Any study?
>
> > > >I had a class in therapeutic hypnotism in grad school. I was
> > > >hypnotized by someone else; I hypnotized myself; and I hypnotized a
> > > >couple of other people. In no case did I, or could I have, "take[n]
> > > >control of a person without their knowledge".
>
> > > >I did make a woman experience being a fish (a musky, to be precise).
> > > >She found the experience very strange, and completely immersive (oh, a
> > > >the experience as it was happening. IOW, even hypnotized, she felt in
> > > >control enough to decide whether or not to follow my suggestions. She
> > > >said she trusted me, but had been aware of her capacity to choose.
>
> > > >their knowledge a few times in social situations. In no case did I get
> > > >anyone into a full trance, although some told me they felt oddly at
> > > >ease and rested.
>
> > > >(Wonder what Nando thinks about this? :-) )
>
> > > That's interesting. I was trained in NLP in the Army
> > > (interrogator/debriefer). I have been in trance many times. I would
> > > say that inducing trance in others is very easy, but it takes
> > > practice. Whether you can entrance people and make them do things that
> > > they don't want to do is, at best, conjectural; there's no way to know
> > > what they want to do. However, it seems to me that if they're coming
> > > to you for help, they want to be helped. Likewise, if they are
> > > engaging in antisocial behavior, I wouldn't dismiss the possibility
> > > that they were looking for an excuse.
>
> > > It's less clear that a source really wants to give you information,
> > > but fear of the possible alternatives is a factor. As for 'taking
> > > control' over people without their knowledge, I'd give it a qualified
> > > 'yes.' Among other things, you can interrupt the process of going to
> > > and fear you when you're not. You can also gaslight people very
> > > easily. These are fairly weak forms of control.
>
> > > I have also heard anecdotal evidence from people that I consider
> > > reliable of deeper levels of control that produced anti-social
> > > behavior. Again however, it isn't clear that the subjects involved
> > > were acting against their will.
>
> > > Studies of hypnosis are deeply suspect for those and other reasons. In
> > > particular, an untalented practitioner never gets anyone into trance,
> > > so the best you can do is test the joint hypothesis that the
> > > practitioner is sufficiently competent and the subject changes
> > > behavior in response.
>
> > > I think the evidence on the broader question of the induction of
> > > altered states is less ambiguous.
>
> > Thanks "James Beck", I needed to know if hypnosis can be introduced
> > without the knowledge of the subject. I have again heard about a
> > jewelry theft here in local where a hypnotist stole jewelry using
> > hypnotism.
>
> I've CC'd this to sci.psychology.misc as well.http://tinyurl.com/yca4weg
If you've never seen the TV show Mind Control with Derren Brown, I
highly recommend you Google it. Some examples:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9qGlMG71EeM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hnWxO_sSUDU
Most episodes show suggestion, or "hypnotism light". The show is
packed with Derren demonstrating feats of suggestion. Part of the art
of the mentalist is knowing how to choose a mark - you need to be able
to pick someone who's mind isn't on high alert. You could drug someone
and hypnotize them in a weak minded state, I suppose, but I don't
think that's what you're asking about.
In general, suggestion doesn't work to make an alert person do
anything against their will. Suggestion has to be slipped in on the
down low.
James Beck
I think that's incorrect, but it depends on how you define 'alert.' I
doubt that suggestion works at all on the comatose. I think it's safe
to say that re-programming the brain is an active process. For
example, open focus biofeedback deliberately increases awareness. It
is a highly suggestible altered state. So is meditation which, in its
broader sense, includes all forms of rhythmic exercise. Regardless, I
think most people are much less self-aware than they imagine.
I also seriously doubt that drugs are helpful, though people often
claim that they were under their influence when they did something
they later regretted. Unless the drug user has mastered the drug, the
altered state it induces is uncontrolled. It's not clear to me that
that helps the 'hypnotist.'
The anecdotal evidence also suggests that there's no need to slip "in
on the down low" as you put it, either. That's useful if you want to
gaslight someone, though. ;>).
Anyway, as I said before, I don't believe this area has been
competently studied, yet. Using words like 'generally' is premature at
best. If we can't observe both what the subject wants and what the
'hypnotist' suggests, blanket statements may never be appropriate.
aganunitsi
> On Thu, 11 Feb 2010 14:07:26 -0800 (PST), aganunitsi
>
>
>
> >On Feb 10, 11:56 pm, "Ganesh J. Acharya" <ganeshjacha...@gmail.com>
> >wrote:
> >> On Feb 11, 9:50 am, "Ganesh J. Acharya" <ganeshjacha...@gmail.com>
> >> wrote:
>
> >> > On Feb 9, 7:59 am, James Beck <jdbeck11...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> >> > > On Mon, 8 Feb 2010 04:17:00 -0800 (PST), Tom McDonald
>
> >> > > <kilt...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> > > >On Feb 7, 9:46 pm, "Ganesh J. Acharya" <ganeshjacha...@gmail.com>
> >> > > >wrote:
> >> > > >> Anyone here at TO been hypnotized? I have not so far been, so, I would
> >> > > >> like to know more about it.
>
> >> > > >> I've heard the following:-
> >> > > >> 1. A hypnotist can take control of a person without their knowledge...
>
> >> > > >> Any study?
>
> >> > > >I had a class in therapeutic hypnotism in grad school. I was
> >> > > >hypnotized by someone else; I hypnotized myself; and I hypnotized a
> >> > > >couple of other people. In no case did I, or could I have, "take[n]
> >> > > >control of a person without their knowledge".
>
> >> > > >I did make a woman experience being a fish (a musky, to be precise).
> >> > > >She found the experience very strange, and completely immersive (oh, a
> >> > > >the experience as it was happening. IOW, even hypnotized, she felt in
> >> > > >control enough to decide whether or not to follow my suggestions. She
> >> > > >said she trusted me, but had been aware of her capacity to choose.
>
> >> > > >their knowledge a few times in social situations. In no case did I get
> >> > > >anyone into a full trance, although some told me they felt oddly at
> >> > > >ease and rested.
>
> >> > > >(Wonder what Nando thinks about this? :-) )
>
> >> > > That's interesting. I was trained in NLP in the Army
> >> > > (interrogator/debriefer). I have been in trance many times. I would
> >> > > say that inducing trance in others is very easy, but it takes
> >> > > practice. Whether you can entrance people and make them do things that
> >> > > they don't want to do is, at best, conjectural; there's no way to know
> >> > > what they want to do. However, it seems to me that if they're coming
> >> > > to you for help, they want to be helped. Likewise, if they are
> >> > > engaging in antisocial behavior, I wouldn't dismiss the possibility
> >> > > that they were looking for an excuse.
>
> >> > > It's less clear that a source really wants to give you information,
> >> > > but fear of the possible alternatives is a factor. As for 'taking
> >> > > control' over people without their knowledge, I'd give it a qualified
> >> > > 'yes.' Among other things, you can interrupt the process of going to
You can get a certificate in hypnotism - my grandfather (an MD) had
one. It is well studied in the sense that the methods can be taught to
others. The methods are scientifically explainable and repeatable.
And we, in the sense of the person being hypnotized, can observe what
we want versus what was suggested. Even then, I would call your reason
into question if you think that this shopkeeper desired to accept
plain paper instead of money:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Vz_YTNLn6w
Ganesh J. Acharya
Now, that's what I wanted to know and see. Need to find out someone in
India who teaches hypnotism to that level.
Surely what he was doing is illegal, but I am sure he would have
returned all that he brought.
Any explanation for this one????
James Beck
It's an old scam. There are many variations on the same theme. As I
said, slipping in on the down low is useful if you want to gaslight
someone.
By the way, it works in many situations. The brain seems to hardwire
certain behaviors like tying shoes, putting a key in a lock, giving
directions and taking money. Intermediate events that happen while the
brain is processing an automated loop are perceived incorrectly. On
the other hand, he didn't take control over the victims; he exploited
a known vulnerability in the way the brain processes information.
Milton Ericson's technique of rapid induction was based on
interrupting another automated behavior: shaking hands.
Ganesh J. Acharya
>
In the video we saw above, people counted the notes and were possibly
seeing what they expected to see. Can we know more about this
*vulnerability* you are talking about.