Are you a good cardiologist? Or do you know one?
Alex
(preferably Quebec) and doing angioplasty to save a gravely ill
relative. Our relative is not covered by medicare, so we are ready
to pay $20,000 for a successful procedure.
Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
Why the location restriction?
Humbly,
Andrew
--
Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
Board-Certified Cardiologist
http://www.heartmdphd.com/
mfg
Why is your relative not covered by health care?
MFG
Bill
"mfg" <mfgj...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
news:21749773.04011...@posting.google.com...
I'm guessing that your relative lives in the US and you live in Canada. Is
that correct? Why do you qualify it with "successful"? I think you probably
have to provide more details to get good advice.
Bill
Andrew Kerr
news:573a2e6d.0401...@posting.google.com...
Why don't you just call one of the teaching hospitals in Montreal? Or if
you're closer to Ottawa, call the Ottawa Heart Institute. For that matter,
call the nearest hospital with a cardiac care unit. They'll tell you how
much the procedure will cost.
How do you determine successful procedure? I don't imagine they have
money-back guarantee's or anything.
Andrew
Frank
"Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" <and...@heartmdphd.com> wrote in message
news:4006B713...@heartmdphd.com...
> Alex wrote:
>
> > We are looking for a cardiologist practicing in Canada
> > (preferably Quebec) and doing angioplasty to save a gravely ill
> > relative. Our relative is not covered by medicare, so we are ready
> > to pay $20,000 for a successful procedure.
>
> Why the location restriction?
>
> Humbly,
>
> Andrew
Hey Andrew,
I think the OP meant a real cardiologist, someone that really has a practice
and all, not a lusenet fellow and a good one too.
Frankly,
Frank
Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
> "Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" <and...@heartmdphd.com> wrote in message
> news:4006B713...@heartmdphd.com...
> > Alex wrote:
> >
> > > We are looking for a cardiologist practicing in Canada
> > > (preferably Quebec) and doing angioplasty to save a gravely ill
> > > relative. Our relative is not covered by medicare, so we are ready
> > > to pay $20,000 for a successful procedure.
> >
> > Why the location restriction?
> >
> > Humbly,
> >
> > Andrew
>
> <hissing snipped>
Another lost soul to add to my prayer list <sigh>
May you accept Christ as your Lord and Savior, neighbor.
Humbly,
Andrew
--
Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
Board-Certified Cardiologist
http://www.heartmdphd.com/
Bob Pastorio
> Another lost soul to add to my prayer list <sigh>
With such an extensive list, I wonder how he does it. One name at a
time or maybe hold up a piece of paper with all the names on it and do
a kinda "dear occupant" junk mail approach?
Maybe explains why there doesn't seem to be much coming out of Chung's
direct hotline. The only thing that's different is that more people
see him for what kind of fraud/quack he is.
Maybe that's the real plan.
Pastorio
Nigel
@corp.supernews.com:
> Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD wrote:
>
>> Another lost soul to add to my prayer list <sigh>
>
> With such an extensive list, I wonder how he does it. One name at a
> time or maybe hold up a piece of paper with all the names on it and do
> a kinda "dear occupant" junk mail approach?
>
Interesting theological question: Does God listen to spam-prayers, or does
He filter like everyone else?
Stephen Nagler
>Interesting theological question: Does God listen to spam-prayers, or does
>He filter like everyone else?
.................
He listens to all those who pray with sincerity from the heart.
smn
Mucho M_uns
>Interesting theological question: Does God listen to spam-prayers, or does
>He filter like everyone else?
Assuming you buy into the fact that a supernatural, Universe-creating,
eternal "Being "hears anything. He has told us in the Scriptures many,
many times that all prayers reach Him.
http://www.moonglow.net/ccd/pictures/moon/index.html
Lift well, Eat less, Walk fast, Live long.
Mucho M_uns
wrote:
>He listens to all those who pray with sincerity from the heart.
Incorrect. God knows all, sees all, hears all and judges all fairly. a
Jew should know that since it is written in the Torah.
Alex
but I wish to assure you that the matter is very serious and very
private and this is why I am not going to discuss any details in
public. If you are a cardiologist or provide one and are interested to
get significant amount of money, contact us in private and this is the
way to do business.
Alex
Stephen Nagler
<much...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>On Fri, 16 Jan 2004 22:10:33 GMT, Stephen Nagler <nag...@tinn.com>
>wrote:
>
>>He listens to all those who pray with sincerity from the heart.
>
>Incorrect. God knows all, sees all, hears all and judges all fairly. a
>Jew should know that since it is written in the Torah.
>
...............
I do not find our two responses to be inconsistent with each other.
smn
Bob Pastorio
> On Fri, 16 Jan 2004 22:10:33 GMT, Stephen Nagler <nag...@tinn.com>
> wrote:
>
>>He listens to all those who pray with sincerity from the heart.
>
> Incorrect.
So God listens to people who are insincere? Like you, Diaper M_ess ?
God accepts prayers that are only partly sincere? I bet that's what
they teach in that Church of the Least Inconvenience that you think
has The Truth.
> God knows all, sees all, hears all and judges all fairly. a
> Jew should know that since it is written in the Torah.
<LOL> Look at the wacko "Christian" Mu_ddlehead telling a jew about
the Torah. Wasn't Mu_sclehead just whining about a Jew telling him
about Jesus?
<LOL>
What a lightweight.
Pastorio
Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
Only of interest to the godless.
Humbly,
Andrew
--
Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
Board-Certified Cardiologist
http://www.heartmdphd.com/
Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
> On Fri, 16 Jan 2004 22:10:33 GMT, Stephen Nagler <nag...@tinn.com>
> wrote:
>
> >He listens to all those who pray with sincerity from the heart.
>
> Incorrect. God knows all, sees all, hears all and judges all fairly. a
> Jew should know that since it is written in the Torah.
I would have to disagree with you here, Mu, sorry.
God listens to *all* prayers.
Whether it will be His will to act either positively or negatively (or
evenly in a timely fashion) on the petition, that would be an entirely
different question.
Humbly,
Andrew
--
Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
Board-Certified Cardiologist
http://www.heartmdphd.com/
Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
I am not interested in the money so I hope you'll pardon me for not
contacting you in private.
Carol T
>>>>>>>>>> <LOL> Look at the wacko "Christian" Mu_ddlehead telling a
jew about
> the Torah. Wasn't Mu_sclehead just whining about a Jew telling him
> about Jesus?<<<<<<<<<<<
Let go of these demons Bob in the name of Christ, and recognise who
your neighbours are. Let Him sit at your tables and let your tables
and life be filled with the joy of the Spirit. Let each cut of the
food you prepare free the ropes binding you to sin and take away all
of this anger in Jesus' name. Let each person who reads now be praying
for you too, as they ask this for you through the words they read.
Do not look to your side to realise with horror what could be there in
Jesus' place, know only your Lord God is there because you've invited
His Son in to be your saviour.
"So when you see the 'abomination of desolation,' spoken of by Daniel
the prophet, standing where it ought not" (let the reader understand),
"then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. Mark 13:14
Carol T
Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
Well written, Carol :-)
Mr. Pastorio remains in my prayers, sister.
May Mr. Pastorio accept Christ as His Lord and Savior someday.
Humbly,
Andrew
--
Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
Board-Certified Cardiologist
http://www.heartmdphd.com/
Mucho M_uns
wrote:
>>>He listens to all those who pray with sincerity from the heart.
>>
>>Incorrect. God knows all, sees all, hears all and judges all fairly. a
>>Jew should know that since it is written in the Torah.
>>
>
>...............
>
>I do not find our two responses to be inconsistent with each other.
Then you need to reread your limitations on God and my unlimited
view, direct from the Torah, on his all-knowing and ll-hearing.
Mucho M_uns
<and...@heartmdphd.com> wrote:
>> Incorrect. God knows all, sees all, hears all and judges all fairly. a
>> Jew should know that since it is written in the Torah.
>
>I would have to disagree with you here, Mu, sorry.
>
>God listens to *all* prayers.
>
>Whether it will be His will to act either positively or negatively (or
>evenly in a timely fashion) on the petition, that would be an entirely
>different question.
I did not say He would act on them, I said he listened to all prayers
as opposed to Nagler who claims He listens only to those from the
heart.
Mucho M_uns
Stephen Nagler
<much...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>I did not say He would act on them, I said he listened to all prayers
>as opposed to Nagler who claims He listens only to those from the
>heart.
.............
If it's not from the heart, it's not a prayer. If it's not from the
heart, it's just words masquerading as a prayer. I suspect that God
can tell the difference without listening - don't you?
Praying from the lips and not from the heart may be praying, but it is
definitely not prayer.
smn
Thorsten Schier
Mucho M_uns schrieb:
>
> On 16 Jan 2004 15:40:59 -0800, akh...@hotmail.com (Alex) wrote:
>
> >I do appreciate and understand certain apprehension in your questions,
> >but I wish to assure you that the matter is very serious and very
> >private and this is why I am not going to discuss any details in
> >public. If you are a cardiologist or provide one and are interested to
> >get significant amount of money, contact us in private and this is the
> >way to do business.
> >
> >Alex
>
> Best contact me then, I am the businessman and this appears to be
> business.
>
Since when are you a cardiologist?
Thorsten
--
"Nothing in biology makes sense, except in the light of evolution"
(Theodosius Dobzhansky)
Bob Pastorio
> Alex wrote:
>
>>I do appreciate and understand certain apprehension in your questions,
>>but I wish to assure you that the matter is very serious and very
>>private and this is why I am not going to discuss any details in
>>public. If you are a cardiologist or provide one and are interested to
>>get significant amount of money, contact us in private and this is the
>>way to do business.
>>
> I am not interested in the money so I hope you'll pardon me for not
> contacting you in private.
Apparently not interested in helping for free, either. It's generally
desperate people who offer money for what should be a simple matter of
grace and courtesy. Poor Chung whose "truth discernment" machinery is
broken.
Pastorio
Stephen Nagler
<past...@nospam.rica.net> wrote:
>Apparently not interested in helping for free, either. It's generally
>desperate people who offer money for what should be a simple matter of
>grace and courtesy. Poor Chung whose "truth discernment" machinery is
>broken.
>
>Pastorio
...............
Bob, I'm no "Chung fan," but to be honest in the time that I have been
participating here (admittedly not very long) I have not seen any
indication of Dr. Chung's trying to solicit patients through this
newsgroup. I think it is reasonable that he put his website in his
sig line so that people who want to know more about him and his clinic
can do so - and also as a disclaimer to reveal even the most remote
conflict of interest. But in terms of his participation here as far
as medical advice goes, it seems to me that his motives are
praiseworthy.
smn
Bob
> On Sun, 18 Jan 2004 01:51:39 -0500, Bob Pastorio
> <past...@nospam.rica.net> wrote:
>
>>Apparently not interested in helping for free, either. It's generally
>>desperate people who offer money for what should be a simple matter of
>>grace and courtesy. Poor Chung whose "truth discernment" machinery is
>>broken.
>>
>>Pastorio
> ...............
>
> Bob, I'm no "Chung fan," but to be honest in the time that I have been
> participating here (admittedly not very long) I have not seen any
> indication of Dr. Chung's trying to solicit patients through this
> newsgroup.
He doesn't do it directly. But the note above was about his lack of
altruism. He said he wasn't interested in the money being offered by a
poster who seemed in urgent need, so he wouldn't help.
> I think it is reasonable that he put his website in his
> sig line so that people who want to know more about him and his clinic
> can do so - and also as a disclaimer to reveal even the most remote
> conflict of interest.
He uses his web site as his mail point, identifies himself as "Dr.
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD." and puts both MD and PHD in his URL. Not
likely that his improper use of the degrees would escape notice.
> But in terms of his participation here as far
> as medical advice goes, it seems to me that his motives are
> praiseworthy.
According to Chung, he doesn't give "advice." Merely general
directions and, recently, has been telling people to consult with
their doctors. Guess he finally caught on to the ethical and legal
liability he's been courting.
Chung's welcome page solicits business.
It says in part, "If you need a cardiologist and reside here in
Georgia, I am also seeing folks in person. If you like what you have
learned from this web site and are interested in seeing me, you should
visit my virtual office for details about how to get a temporary
username and password to learn more about what it would be like to
have me as your cardiologist."
Andrew's selfish, ego-driven motives have so frequently been so
blatant that it's difficult to credit him with too many impulses to
generosity. The negative one mentioned in the post to which you reply
being a current and particularly egregious one.
Pastorio
Stephen Nagler
>He doesn't do it [solicit patients] directly.
.................
Bob, I don't like the man. He has treated me unkindly almost from the
very beginning. But he walks a tightrope here. He's a physician with
a practice (I don't care how full or empty his waiting room is}, and
yet he devotes many hours to this newsgroup. Anybody who participates
in a newsgroup the topic of which is also a source of income places
himself or herself in a position to be criticized for some sort of
solicitation. But the alternative is *not* to have physicians
participating on health-related sites - and given the choice, I'd take
their participation any day of the week. So by definition almost
there is indirect solicitation. What I have *not* seen is Dr. Chung's
direct solicitation of business. I do not think the usenet readership
can have it both ways -- and from what I have seen, Dr. Chung walks
the tightrope pretty well.
....................
>He uses his web site as his mail point,
..................
Nothing wrong with that, in my opinion.
........................
> identifies himself as "Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD."
.................
Inappropriate form of professional address and the absolute antithesis
of the humility he espouses, but it's not solicitation.
Should be:
Dr. Andrew Chung
Andrew Chung, M.D.
Andrew Chung, Ph.D.
or
Andrew Chung, M.D., Ph.D.
.......................
>and puts both MD and PHD in his URL.
.....................
Again, not solicitation.
.......................
>Andrew's selfish, ego-driven motives have so frequently been so
>blatant that it's difficult to credit him with too many impulses to
>generosity.
..........................
Bob, if the man were here for the purpose of increasing patient flow,
well that would have to be the absolute dumbest business tactic
conceivable. The monetary equivalent of the hours he spends on this
board completely dwarfs any cash flow to his practice that could
possible be derived.
I guess you and I are going to have to agree to disagree about this
topic and continue to respect each other's right to an opinion. Now
*there* is a place where Dr. Chung could use some work!
Ciao -
smn
Matti Narkia
<qp5l00l0vps9813la...@4ax.com> Stephen Nagler <nag...@tinn.com>
wrote:
>
>Bob, if the man were here for the purpose of increasing patient flow,
>well that would have to be the absolute dumbest business tactic
>conceivable. The monetary equivalent of the hours he spends on this
>board completely dwarfs any cash flow to his practice that could
>possible be derived.
>
many patients to his practice. Therefore I agree that the dumbest thing he
could to his business is what he is doing here: spending hours here arguing
senselessly with potential customers about off-topic matters like religion and
revealing so obviously weaknesses of his character and some quackish features
of his way to practice medicine.
The man's usenet behavior is simply the worst imaginable advertisement for his
medical practice.
--
Matti Narkia
Stephen Nagler
wrote:
>The man's usenet behavior is simply the worst imaginable advertisement for his
>medical practice.
..................
... which further supports the thesis that he is *not* here to solicit
patients.
smn
Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
Correct. However, God is my Boss and so I obey Him.
>
> --
> Matti Narkia
Fear Him, Matti. All the vitamins you seem to be trying to sell will not save
you.
May you accept Christ as your Lord and Savior someday.
You remain in my prayers, neighbor.
Humbly,
Andrew
--
Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
Board-Certified Cardiologist
http://www.heartmdphd.com
Matti Narkia
<e9b69c812cf712ae...@news.teranews.com> "Dr. Andrew B. Chung,
MD/PhD" <and...@heartmdphd.com> wrote:
>Matti Narkia wrote:
>
>> Sun, 18 Jan 2004 14:49:19 GMT in article
>> <qp5l00l0vps9813la...@4ax.com> Stephen Nagler <nag...@tinn.com>
>> wrote:
>> >
>> >Bob, if the man were here for the purpose of increasing patient flow,
>> >well that would have to be the absolute dumbest business tactic
>> >conceivable. The monetary equivalent of the hours he spends on this
>> >board completely dwarfs any cash flow to his practice that could
>> >possible be derived.
>> >
>> Not to mention that his behavior in this newsgroup is not likely to invite
>> many patients to his practice. Therefore I agree that the dumbest thing he
>> could to his business is what he is doing here: spending hours here arguing
>> senselessly with potential customers about off-topic matters like religion and
>> revealing so obviously weaknesses of his character and some quackish features
>> of his way to practice medicine.
>>
>> The man's usenet behavior is simply the worst imaginable advertisement for his
>> medical practice.
>>
>
>Correct. However, God is my Boss and so I obey Him.
>
>Fear Him, Matti. All the vitamins you seem to be trying to sell will not save
>you.
>
You continue proving my point. Obvious lying in the newsgroups will not do any
good for your practice. I rest my case.
--
Matti Narkia
Stephen Nagler
<and...@heartmdphd.com> wrote:
>Matti Narkia wrote:
>> The man's usenet behavior is simply the worst imaginable advertisement for his
>> medical practice.
>>
>
>Correct. However, God is my Boss and so I obey Him.
>
................
Dr. Chung, do you think your Boss is pleased with the particular tack
you have taken in your efforts to obey Him?
I have within the past 24 hours received no fewer that three e-mails
from people who follow this newsgroup closely (but who apparently do
not choose to be very active in terms of posting). Each of the three
described himself or herself as a devout Christian. Each of the three
expressed sincere appreciation for the time and effort you, Dr. Chung,
devote here. But each of the three - for whatever reason - felt
compelled to apologize to me on behalf of mainstream Christians for
the appalling way you (and one or two others) have treated me in the
name of Christ. One summed it up by saying that he was concerned that
I might get a bad impression of Christians by virtue of your behavior
here in general and towards me in particular.
Maybe the key is to leave the judgement of others where it rightfully
belongs - in the hands of God?
smn
Tiger Lily
"Stephen Nagler" <> wrote in message @4ax.com...
> Dr. Chung, do you think your Boss is pleased with the particular tack
> you have taken in your efforts to obey Him?
>
> I have within the past 24 hours received no fewer that three e-mails
> from people who follow this newsgroup closely (but who apparently do
> not choose to be very active in terms of posting). Each of the three
> described himself or herself as a devout Christian. Each of the three
> expressed sincere appreciation for the time and effort you, Dr. Chung,
> devote here. But each of the three - for whatever reason - felt
> compelled to apologize to me on behalf of mainstream Christians for
> the appalling way you (and one or two others) have treated me in the
> name of Christ. One summed it up by saying that he was concerned that
> I might get a bad impression of Christians by virtue of your behavior
> here in general and towards me in particular.
>
> Maybe the key is to leave the judgement of others where it rightfully
> belongs - in the hands of God?
>
> smn
i can publicly state that as a practicing Christian i am mortified at the
antics that get "blessed as truthful and Christ-like" in this newsgroup
gack!
Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
> i can publicly state that as a practicing Christian i am mortified at the
> antics that get "blessed as truthful and Christ-like" in this newsgroup
>
God's blessings are His own.
>
> gack!
That's the sound a non-christian makes when God puts His hand around her
throat and squeezes.
You remain in my prayers, Tiger-Lilly.
May you accept Christ as your Lord and Savior, someday.
Humbly,
Andrew
--
Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
Board-Certified Cardiologist
http://www.heartmdphd.com
Stephen Nagler
<and...@heartmdphd.com> wrote:
>Tiger Lily wrote:
>
>> i can publicly state that as a practicing Christian i am mortified at the
>> antics that get "blessed as truthful and Christ-like" in this newsgroup
>>
>
>God's blessings are His own.
>
>>
>> gack!
>
>That's the sound a non-christian makes when God puts His hand around her
>throat and squeezes.
>
>You remain in my prayers, Tiger-Lilly.
>
>May you accept Christ as your Lord and Savior, someday.
>
>Humbly,
>
>Andrew
...............
Lily -
Even though you *say* above that you are a Christian, apparently you
are not *permitted* to be a Christian unless Dr. Chung says it's OK.
Gotta tell you folks, my eyes have really been opened here. It's not
the horse-shit that Dr. Chung spews in the good name of Jesus Christ
that's such a surprise. It's clear that Dr. Chung's "unique"
interpretation of the word of Christ is no more than an instrument to
satisy his own twisted ends. No, it's more than that. What I find
amazing is that more true Christians don't speak out against Dr.
Chung's disgusting behavior here - that more don't publicly stand up
and say like Lily just said how mortified they are. Incredible - it
takes a Jew like me to do it. Chung, you are no Christian. Hell, you
are not even HUMAN.
Sheesh.
smn
Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
> "Tiger Lily" <m...@privacy.com> wrote in part:
>
> >i can publicly state that as a practicing Christian i am mortified at the
> >antics that get "blessed as truthful and Christ-like" in this newsgroup
> >
> >gack!
>
> Christianity--as any other class of religion--comes in many different forms.
Incorrect.
>
> All of them were laid out by men, not by God.
Incorrect.
> Those who claim to know the only
> way to please God and who claim to know what God wants and then use those
> "gifts" both to justify the abuse of others and to relegate good works as
> unimportant as compared with their own "salvation" are both frightening and to
> be pitied.
Rather complicated sentence. Are you an attorney, Jim?
Let me break it down for you:
(1) Christians do believe that Christ is the only way to salvation.
For Jesus says as quoted in John 14:
From John 14:
6Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the
Father except through me..."
(2) Christians do believe they know what God wants.
For Jesus commanded as quoted in Matthew 28:
18Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has
been given to me. 19Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing
them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20and
teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with
you always, to the very end of the age."
(3) As for using God's "gifts" to justify the abuse of others. If you are
referring the use of the "gift" of truth discernment to reveal the untruthfulness
of others. That is God's purpose for this "gift." It is regrettable that the
untruthful feel "abused" when they are thusly exposed. Nonetheless, Christians do
believe that such "gifts" should be used for God's purpose.
(4) Christians do believe that all the good works one does in a lifetime will not
erase the inherent wickedness of men.
For it is written in the Holy Bible in Romans 1:
18The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness
and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19since
what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain
to them. 20For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities--his
eternal power and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood
from
what has been made, so that men are without excuse.
In conclusion, you, Jim Chinnis, fear Christians as you have confessed. This is
understandable because what you glimpse in Christians is a very tiny
(infinitesimal) part of God. Yes, you should fear God. After all, He did create
everything with just a thought. And as easily as He made you, He can unmake you.
On the other hand, your claim that you pity Christians is clearly an untruth.
This is where the "gift" of truth discernment has it's utility according to God's
purpose.
Picture a cockroach that is about to be stepped on. The cockroach fears the man
than is about to squash it into a paste on the floor. Now imagine the cockroach
taunting the man with the words "I fear you but I also pity you!"
Understandably, at this point you feel wrongfully abused. Truth has this effect
on the untruthful.
>
> I would like to see Dr. Chung continue to post here and I have said before
> that I oppose the off-topic and often juvenile rantings of those who "oppose"
> him here as much as or more than Dr. Chung's own pathetic displays.
Thanks for blessing, Jim.
For Jesus teaches in Matthew 5:
11"Blessed are you when people insult you, persecute you and falsely say all
kinds of evil against you because of me. 12Rejoice and be glad, because great
is
your reward in heaven, for in the same way they persecuted the prophets who
were before you.
> Without
> the attention and nonsense of others, the proportion of his posts that are
> off-topic would dwindle and the discussion of cardiology would be vastly
> improved.
Satan and his workers do not give up that easily, Jim.
>
> --
> Jim Chinnis Warrenton, Virginia, USA
May you accept Christ as your Lord and Savior someday.
You remain in my prayers, neighbor.
Humbly,
Andrew
--
Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
Board-Certified Cardiologist
http://www.heartmdphd.com
Matti Narkia
<m04m009sk1oao64v8...@4ax.com> Stephen Nagler <nag...@tinn.com>
wrote:
Well put. Exactly my thoughts. I also wish that some true Christians, in
addition to Tiger Lily, would come forward and write how do they feel about
this mockery of religion by Chung. I know it is off-topic, and I wouldn't have
believed that I would encourage people to write off-topic messages, but there
has to be a limit to everything, even to Chung's derision of Christianity.
--
Matti Narkia
Thorsten Schier
"Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" schrieb:
[...]
> (4) Christians do believe that all the good works one does in a lifetime will not
> erase the inherent wickedness of men.
I was under the impression that according to Christian beliefs it was
God who created men. And as far as I know they see him as omnipotent and
good. How come he cose to create such wicked creatures as men?
Thorsten Schier
"Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" schrieb:
>
> Tiger Lily wrote:
>
> > i can publicly state that as a practicing Christian i am mortified at the
> > antics that get "blessed as truthful and Christ-like" in this newsgroup
> >
>
> God's blessings are His own.
>
> >
> > gack!
>
> That's the sound a non-christian makes when God puts His hand around her
> throat and squeezes.
Isn't it said in the scriptures that Christians should love their
enemies? How are they expected to do so if even God does not do it? Or
is killing the way Christians show their love, at least where enemies
are concerned?
> You remain in my prayers, Tiger-Lilly.
>
> May you accept Christ as your Lord and Savior, someday.
>
Oh, but she said that she already did so.
Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
> "Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" schrieb:
> [...]
> > (4) Christians do believe that all the good works one does in a lifetime will not
> > erase the inherent wickedness of men.
>
> I was under the impression that according to Christian beliefs it was
> God who created men.
God did.
> And as far as I know they see him as omnipotent and
> good.
He is.
> How come he cose to create such wicked creatures as men?
>
It was His choice/plan to give humans free will which feeds our wickedness. However,
with our free will, we can choose to forsake evil by following Christ who is
perfect/good/sinless or not.
May you choose the former, Thorsten.
You remain in my prayers, neighbor.
Humbly,
Andrew
--
Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
Board-Certified Cardiologist
http://www.heartmdphd.com
Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
> "Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" schrieb:
> >
> > Tiger Lily wrote:
> >
> > > i can publicly state that as a practicing Christian i am mortified at the
> > > antics that get "blessed as truthful and Christ-like" in this newsgroup
> > >
> >
> > God's blessings are His own.
> >
> > >
> > > gack!
> >
> > That's the sound a non-christian makes when God puts His hand around her
> > throat and squeezes.
>
> Isn't it said in the scriptures that Christians should love their
> enemies?
Would I pray on Tiger-Lilly's behalf if I did not love her?
> How are they expected to do so if even God does not do it?
God does. That was proven with God sending His Son to die for the sins of all
men (and women).
> Or
> is killing the way Christians show their love, at least where enemies
> are concerned?
>
Who is being killed?
>
> > You remain in my prayers, Tiger-Lilly.
> >
> > May you accept Christ as your Lord and Savior, someday.
> >
>
> Oh, but she said that she already did so.
>
Her being untruthful suggests otherwise.
>
> Thorsten
You remain in my prayers, neighbor.
Humbly,
Andrew
--
Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
Board-Certified Cardiologist
http://www.heartmdphd.com
Thorsten Schier
"Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" schrieb:
>
> Thorsten Schier wrote:
>
> > "Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" schrieb:
> > [...]
> > > (4) Christians do believe that all the good works one does in a lifetime will not
> > > erase the inherent wickedness of men.
> >
> > I was under the impression that according to Christian beliefs it was
> > God who created men.
>
> God did.
>
> > And as far as I know they see him as omnipotent and
> > good.
>
> He is.
>
> > How come he cose to create such wicked creatures as men?
> >
>
> It was His choice/plan to give humans free will which feeds our wickedness.
Ok, so this would explain why men can become wicked. However, it does
not explain why they are "inherently wicked" as you implied. They might
just as well choose not to become wicked, whether they are believing in
Christ or not.
> However,
> with our free will, we can choose to forsake evil by following Christ who is
> perfect/good/sinless or not.
>
> May you choose the former, Thorsten.
I don't see myself as "evil" and yet I'm not following Christ.
> You remain in my prayers, neighbor.
Feel free to do so, if it makes you feel better.
Thorsten Schier
"Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" schrieb:
>
> Thorsten Schier wrote:
>
> > "Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" schrieb:
> > >
> > > Tiger Lily wrote:
> > >
> > > > i can publicly state that as a practicing Christian i am mortified at the
> > > > antics that get "blessed as truthful and Christ-like" in this newsgroup
> > > >
> > >
> > > God's blessings are His own.
> > >
> > > >
> > > > gack!
> > >
> > > That's the sound a non-christian makes when God puts His hand around her
> > > throat and squeezes.
> >
> > Isn't it said in the scriptures that Christians should love their
> > enemies?
>
> Would I pray on Tiger-Lilly's behalf if I did not love her?
I wasn't pointing at you but rather at your 'boss'.
> > How are they expected to do so if even God does not do it?
>
> God does. That was proven with God sending His Son to die for the sins of all
> men (and women).
How come he wants to damn the vast majority of mankind to hell, then?
> > Or
> > is killing the way Christians show their love, at least where enemies
> > are concerned?
> >
>
> Who is being killed?
Oh, it's just that I was under the impression that this "putting the
hand around the throat and squeezing"-bit you mentioned above might
involve some killing.
> >
> > > You remain in my prayers, Tiger-Lilly.
> > >
> > > May you accept Christ as your Lord and Savior, someday.
> > >
> >
> > Oh, but she said that she already did so.
> >
>
> Her being untruthful suggests otherwise.
>
I don't see anything in her post that is demonstrably untrue. She is
giving her opinion. You might not share this opinion, but that does not
make it "untruthful".
Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
> "Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" schrieb:
> >
> > Thorsten Schier wrote:
> >
> > > "Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" schrieb:
> > > [...]
> > > > (4) Christians do believe that all the good works one does in a lifetime will not
> > > > erase the inherent wickedness of men.
> > >
> > > I was under the impression that according to Christian beliefs it was
> > > God who created men.
> >
> > God did.
> >
> > > And as far as I know they see him as omnipotent and
> > > good.
> >
> > He is.
> >
> > > How come he cose to create such wicked creatures as men?
> > >
> >
> > It was His choice/plan to give humans free will which feeds our wickedness.
>
> Ok, so this would explain why men can become wicked.
Actually, it does not. It does explain how their wickedness grows.
> However, it does
> not explain why they are "inherently wicked" as you implied.
Correct. Only God can answer the "why."
> They might
> just as well choose not to become wicked,
Can Satan choose to become good?
> whether they are believing in
> Christ or not.
Without Christ, we are condemned for our inherent wickedness.
>
>
> > However,
> > with our free will, we can choose to forsake evil by following Christ who is
> > perfect/good/sinless or not.
> >
> > May you choose the former, Thorsten.
>
> I don't see myself as "evil" and yet I'm not following Christ.
>
Satan does not see himself as "evil" and yes, he will not follow Christ.
>
> > You remain in my prayers, neighbor.
>
> Feel free to do so,
I will
> if it makes you feel better.
>
Thank you for your concern about how I feel.
>
> Thorsten
>
You remain in my prayers, neighbor.
Truly, it is my hope that the Holy Spirit will move you to accept Christ as your Lord and
Savior someday.
Humbly,
Andrew
--
Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
Board-Certified Cardiologist
http://www.heartmdphd.com
Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
> "Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" schrieb:
> >
> > Thorsten Schier wrote:
> >
> > > "Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" schrieb:
> > > >
> > > > Tiger Lily wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > i can publicly state that as a practicing Christian i am mortified at the
> > > > > antics that get "blessed as truthful and Christ-like" in this newsgroup
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > God's blessings are His own.
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > gack!
> > > >
> > > > That's the sound a non-christian makes when God puts His hand around her
> > > > throat and squeezes.
> > >
> > > Isn't it said in the scriptures that Christians should love their
> > > enemies?
> >
> > Would I pray on Tiger-Lilly's behalf if I did not love her?
>
> I wasn't pointing at you but rather at your 'boss'.
>
A Christian is a mortal who has accepted the Lord Jesus Christ as his/her Lord and
Savior.
Newsflash: God (my Boss) is not mortal.
>
> > > How are they expected to do so if even God does not do it?
> >
> > God does. That was proven with God sending His Son to die for the sins of all
> > men (and women).
>
> How come he wants to damn the vast majority of mankind to hell, then?
>
God does not want that. If He did, then He would not have sacrificed His Son.
>
> > > Or
> > > is killing the way Christians show their love, at least where enemies
> > > are concerned?
> > >
> >
> > Who is being killed?
>
> Oh, it's just that I was under the impression that this "putting the
> hand around the throat and squeezing"-bit you mentioned above might
> involve some killing.
>
Dead people don't post on Usenet.
>
> > >
> > > > You remain in my prayers, Tiger-Lilly.
> > > >
> > > > May you accept Christ as your Lord and Savior, someday.
> > > >
> > >
> > > Oh, but she said that she already did so.
> > >
> >
> > Her being untruthful suggests otherwise.
> >
>
> I don't see anything in her post that is demonstrably untrue.
Google SMC for the quoted phrase
"blessed as truthful and Christ-like"
that Tiger-Lilly claims has been written multiple times (presumably at least once per
"antic" with multiple "antics").
> She is
> giving her opinion.
Yes, she claims to be mortified about observing something (the blessing of "antics"
and the characterization of "antics" being Christlike) that has occurred here at SMC.
> You might not share this opinion, but that does not
> make it "untruthful".
>
Who said anything about opinion being untruthful?
Instead, her claims about observing something (the blessing of "antics" and the
characterization of "antics" being Christ-like) are untruthful.
>
> Thorsten
You remain in my prayers, Thorsten.
Humbly,
Andrew
--
Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
Board-Certified Cardiologist
http://www.heartmdphd.com
Tiger Lily
i pray for your poor twisted soul
may it rest in peace
"Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" <and...@heartmdphd.com> wrote in message
news:83be7d077f5d3bd2...@news.teranews.com...
Thorsten Schier
"Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" schrieb:
>
> Thorsten Schier wrote:
>
> > "Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" schrieb:
> > >
> > > Thorsten Schier wrote:
> > >
> > > > "Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" schrieb:
> > > > [...]
> > > > > (4) Christians do believe that all the good works one does in a lifetime will not
> > > > > erase the inherent wickedness of men.
> > > >
> > > > I was under the impression that according to Christian beliefs it was
> > > > God who created men.
> > >
> > > God did.
> > >
> > > > And as far as I know they see him as omnipotent and
> > > > good.
> > >
> > > He is.
> > >
> > > > How come he cose to create such wicked creatures as men?
> > > >
> > >
> > > It was His choice/plan to give humans free will which feeds our wickedness.
> >
> > Ok, so this would explain why men can become wicked.
>
> Actually, it does not. It does explain how their wickedness grows.
>
> > However, it does
> > not explain why they are "inherently wicked" as you implied.
>
> Correct. Only God can answer the "why."
>
> > They might
> > just as well choose not to become wicked,
>
> Can Satan choose to become good?
Why not? Isn't he a creature of God, just like we are, according to
Christian beliefs?
> > whether they are believing in
> > Christ or not.
>
> Without Christ, we are condemned for our inherent wickedness.
If we are created with this inherent wickedness, than we are not
responsible for it and shouldn't be condemned for it. You should rather
blame the entity which (allegedly) created us.
> >
> >
> > > However,
> > > with our free will, we can choose to forsake evil by following Christ who is
> > > perfect/good/sinless or not.
> > >
> > > May you choose the former, Thorsten.
> >
> > I don't see myself as "evil" and yet I'm not following Christ.
> >
>
> Satan does not see himself as "evil" and yes, he will not follow Christ.
Than how can you say he is evil? Well, you might argue because he is the
enemy of God, but Satan (if he existed) might argue the other way round,
that the followers of God are evil. And in view of how many people were
killed in the name of God, he would have a point.
Thorsten Schier
"Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" schrieb:
>
> Thorsten Schier wrote:
>
> > "Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" schrieb:
> > >
> > > Thorsten Schier wrote:
> > >
> > > > "Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" schrieb:
> > > > >
> > > > > Tiger Lily wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > i can publicly state that as a practicing Christian i am mortified at the
> > > > > > antics that get "blessed as truthful and Christ-like" in this newsgroup
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > God's blessings are His own.
> > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > gack!
> > > > >
> > > > > That's the sound a non-christian makes when God puts His hand around her
> > > > > throat and squeezes.
> > > >
> > > > Isn't it said in the scriptures that Christians should love their
> > > > enemies?
> > >
> > > Would I pray on Tiger-Lilly's behalf if I did not love her?
> >
> > I wasn't pointing at you but rather at your 'boss'.
> >
>
> A Christian is a mortal who has accepted the Lord Jesus Christ as his/her Lord and
> Savior.
>
> Newsflash: God (my Boss) is not mortal.
>
> >
> > > > How are they expected to do so if even God does not do it?
> > >
> > > God does. That was proven with God sending His Son to die for the sins of all
> > > men (and women).
> >
> > How come he wants to damn the vast majority of mankind to hell, then?
> >
>
> God does not want that. If He did, then He would not have sacrificed His Son.
According to what I gathered about your believe, you seem to believe
that everybody who has not accepted Christ as their Lord and Savior at
the time of their death are doomed for eternal hell. Now, that's not my
idea of "loving" your enemies, or even people who just don't believe in
you.
> >
> > > > Or
> > > > is killing the way Christians show their love, at least where enemies
> > > > are concerned?
> > > >
> > >
> > > Who is being killed?
> >
> > Oh, it's just that I was under the impression that this "putting the
> > hand around the throat and squeezing"-bit you mentioned above might
> > involve some killing.
> >
>
> Dead people don't post on Usenet.
I was under the impression that you were referring to an unspecified
non-christian:
"That's the sound a non-christian makes when God puts His hand around
her
throat and squeezes."
> >
> > > >
> > > > > You remain in my prayers, Tiger-Lilly.
> > > > >
> > > > > May you accept Christ as your Lord and Savior, someday.
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > Oh, but she said that she already did so.
> > > >
> > >
> > > Her being untruthful suggests otherwise.
> > >
> >
> > I don't see anything in her post that is demonstrably untrue.
>
> Google SMC for the quoted phrase
>
> "blessed as truthful and Christ-like"
>
> that Tiger-Lilly claims has been written multiple times (presumably at least once per
> "antic" with multiple "antics").
>
> > She is
> > giving her opinion.
>
> Yes, she claims to be mortified about observing something (the blessing of "antics"
> and the characterization of "antics" being Christlike) that has occurred here at SMC.
Ok, this "Christ-like" seems to be an exageration on Lilys part.
Tiger Lily
i stand corrected
however Chung does present himself to be the closest thing to "Christ-like"
here.... only HIS truth and HIS light of Christ is redeeming...... my Christ
is not redeeming enough for him.... he still has to pray for my redemption
what a sick, twisted soul
i pray for Chung
may his sould rest in peace
"Thorsten Schier" <Moo...@firemail.de> wrote in message
news:400B3412...@firemail.de...
Tiger Lily
>
> i stand corrected
>
> however Chung does present himself to be the closest thing to
"Christ-like"
> here.... only HIS truth and HIS light of Christ is redeeming...... my
Christ
> is not redeeming enough for him.... he still has to pray for my redemption
>
> what a sick, twisted soul
>
> i pray for Chung
Ear Rings
From: Stephen Nagler <nag...@tinn.com>
Newsgroups: sci.med.cardiology
Subject: Re: Are you a good cardiologist? Or do you know one?
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Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
> "Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" <and...@heartmdphd.com> wrote in part:
>
> >Jim Chinnis wrote:
>
> >> Those who claim to know the only
> >> way to please God and who claim to know what God wants and then use those
> >> "gifts" both to justify the abuse of others and to relegate good works as
> >> unimportant as compared with their own "salvation" are both frightening and to
> >> be pitied.
> >
> >Rather complicated sentence. Are you an attorney, Jim?
>
> No. But sorry--I forgot whom I was addressing.
>
No, need to apologize. I am not an attorney either.
>
> >Let me break it down for you:
> >
> >(1) Christians do believe that Christ is the only way to salvation.
> >
> >For Jesus says as quoted in John 14:
>
> Incorrect.
>
It remains as correct as the Bible remains Holy.
>
> John says (if that much be credible) that Jesus said...
>
If it were not true, God would not have allowed it.
>
> It sounds like a damn good multilevel marketing plan, though.
Better, it is the truth.
> Let's give
> credit where credit is due.
>
Why would John take credit for the truth?
>
> I drove through Georgia last week on back roads. I noticed a lot of little
> squalid towns with expensive looking churches.
Jesus teaches as quoted in John 12:
3Then Mary took about a pint of pure nard, an expensive perfume; she
poured it on Jesus' feet and wiped his feet with her hair. And the house was
filled with the fragrance of the perfume.
4But one of his disciples, Judas Iscariot, who was later to betray him, objected,
5"Why wasn't this perfume sold and the money given to the poor? It was worth
a year's wages. " 6He did not say this because he cared about the poor but
because he was a thief; as keeper of the money bag, he used to help himself to
what was put into it.
7"Leave her alone," Jesus replied. "It was intended that she should save this
perfume for the day of my burial. 8You will always have the poor among you,
but you will not always have me."
> I kept wondering where the
> pastors lived.
Instead, you should have been wondering where God lives.
For Jesus teaches as quoted in Luke 12:
6And he told them this parable: "The ground of a certain rich man produced a
good crop. 17He thought to himself, 'What shall I do? I have no place to store
my crops.'
18"Then he said, 'This is what I'll do. I will tear down my barns and build bigger
ones, and there I will store all my grain and my goods. 19And I'll say to myself,
"You have plenty of good things laid up for many years. Take life easy; eat,
drink and be merry." '
20"But God said to him, 'You fool! This very night your life will be demanded from
you. Then who will get what you have prepared for yourself?'
21"This is how it will be with anyone who stores up things for himself but is not
rich toward God."
>
>
> >From John 14:
> >
> > 6Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the
> >Father except through me..."
>
> Multlevel marketing has not been improved upon since.
>
Last I checked, St. John did not have a marketing degree.
Nor does St. Luke and yet...
Jesus teaches from Luke 21:
15For I will give you words and wisdom that none of your
adversaries will be able to resist or contradict. 16You will be betrayed even by
parents, brothers, relatives and friends, and they will put some of you to death.
17All men will hate you because of me. 18But not a hair of your head will perish.
19By standing firm you will gain life.
Nor does St. Mark and yet...
Jesus teaches from Mark 13:
13All men will hate you because of me, but he who stands firm to the end will be saved.
Nor does St. Matthew and yet...
Jesus teaches from Matthew 24:
9"Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will
be hated by all nations because of me. 10At that time many will turn away from
the faith and will betray and hate each other, 11and many false prophets will
appear and deceive many people. 12Because of the increase of wickedness, the
love of most will grow cold, 13but he who stands firm to the end will be saved.
>
> >(2) Christians do believe they know what God wants.
>
> Correct. They "believe" they know.
>
Glad you agree.
>
> >For Jesus commanded as quoted in Matthew 28:
>
18Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has
been given to me. 19Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing
them in[1] the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20and
teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with
you always, to the very end of the age."
>
> Incorrect. Again, the most that can be said is that someone attributes to
> "Matthew" the assertion that "Jesus commanded..."
>
Jesus commands as quoted in Mark 16:
15He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the good news to all
creation. 16Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does
not believe will be condemned. 17And these signs will accompany those who
believe: In my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues;
18they will pick up snakes with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison,
it will not hurt them at all; they will place their hands on sick people, and they
will get well."
Jesus commands as quoted in Luke 24:
45Then he opened their minds so they could understand the Scriptures. 46He
told them, "This is what is written: The Christ will suffer and rise from the dead
on the third day, 47and repentance and forgiveness of sins will be preached in
his name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. 48You are witnesses of these
things. 49I am going to send you what my Father has promised; but stay in the
city until you have been clothed with power from on high."
Jesus taught as quoted in John 20:
26A week later his disciples were in the house again, and Thomas was with
them. Though the doors were locked, Jesus came and stood among them and
said, "Peace be with you!" 27Then he said to Thomas, "Put your finger here; see
my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and
believe."
28Thomas said to him, "My Lord and my God!"
29Then Jesus told him, "Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed
are those who have not seen and yet have believed."
30Jesus did many other miraculous signs in the presence of his disciples, which
are not recorded in this book. 31But these are written that you may believe
that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life
in his name.
May God add His blessings to the writing of His Word here on SMC.
Amen.
>
> >On the other hand, your claim that you pity Christians is clearly an untruth.
> >This is where the "gift" of truth discernment has it's utility according to God's
> >purpose.
>
> I pity Christians and others who cannot see what they do.
>
You will need to stop fearing Christians first.
>
> >Picture a cockroach that is about to be stepped on. The cockroach fears the man
> >than is about to squash it into a paste on the floor. Now imagine the cockroach
> >taunting the man with the words "I fear you but I also pity you!"
> >
> >Understandably, at this point you feel wrongfully abused. Truth has this effect
> >on the untruthful.
>
> You think I feel abused that you liken me to a cockroach?
I think you feel abused by the truth.
> I consider the
> source.
>
You are to Him less than a cockroach would be to us.
>
> >> I would like to see Dr. Chung continue to post here and I have said before
> >> that I oppose the off-topic and often juvenile rantings of those who "oppose"
> >> him here as much as or more than Dr. Chung's own pathetic displays.
> >
> >Thanks for blessing, Jim.
>
> >For Jesus teaches in Matthew 5:
> >
> > 11"Blessed are you when people insult you, persecute you and falsely say all
> > kinds of evil against you because of me. 12Rejoice and be glad, because great
> >is
> > your reward in heaven, for in the same way they persecuted the prophets who
> > were before you.
>
> There's that MLM again. Good stuff.
>
Glad you like God's Word. Would suggest you read it.
>
> >> Without
> >> the attention and nonsense of others, the proportion of his posts that are
> >> off-topic would dwindle and the discussion of cardiology would be vastly
> >> improved.
> >
> >Satan and his workers do not give up that easily, Jim.
>
> Satan or not, I'm sure you are right on that score.
>
God is right.
Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
Only God knows.
> Isn't he a creature of God, just like we are, according to
> Christian beliefs?
Satan was a creature of God.
>
>
> > > whether they are believing in
> > > Christ or not.
> >
> > Without Christ, we are condemned for our inherent wickedness.
>
> If we are created with this inherent wickedness,
Not originally.
> than we are not
> responsible for it and shouldn't be condemned for it.
We are responsible for our choice of whether to accept Christ as our Lord and Savior.
> You should rather
> blame the entity which (allegedly) created us.
>
That entity is God, who will remain blameless.
>
> > >
> > >
> > > > However,
> > > > with our free will, we can choose to forsake evil by following Christ who is
> > > > perfect/good/sinless or not.
> > > >
> > > > May you choose the former, Thorsten.
> > >
> > > I don't see myself as "evil" and yet I'm not following Christ.
> > >
> >
> > Satan does not see himself as "evil" and yes, he will not follow Christ.
>
> Than how can you say he is evil?
Because that is God's judgement according to His Word.
> Well, you might argue because he is the
> enemy of God, but Satan (if he existed) might argue the other way round,
and Satan has.
>
> that the followers of God are evil.
doesn't that sound familiar?
> And in view of how many people were
> killed in the name of God, he would have a point.
>
only if you forget the 6th Commandment.
Jesus teaches from Luke 21:
15For I will give you words and wisdom that none of your
adversaries will be able to resist or contradict.
>
> Thorsten
You remain in my prayers, Thorsten.
Humbly,
Andrew
--
Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
Board-Certified Cardiologist
http://www.heartmdphd.com
Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
Yes.
> Now, that's not my
> idea of "loving" your enemies,
My praying for you (Stephen, Tiger, Steve, Mattb, Bob et al) to accept Christ as your Lord
and Savior should fit your idea of my "loving" my neighbors.
> or even people who just don't believe in
> you.
>
I would be happy for their sakes if they just believe in my Lord.... they do not have to
believe in me.
>
> > >
> > > > > Or
> > > > > is killing the way Christians show their love, at least where enemies
> > > > > are concerned?
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > Who is being killed?
> > >
> > > Oh, it's just that I was under the impression that this "putting the
> > > hand around the throat and squeezing"-bit you mentioned above might
> > > involve some killing.
> > >
> >
> > Dead people don't post on Usenet.
>
> I was under the impression that you were referring to an unspecified
> non-christian:
>
It was the sound that Tiger Lily made.
>
> "That's the sound a non-christian makes when God puts His hand around
> her
> throat and squeezes."
>
> > >
> > > > >
> > > > > > You remain in my prayers, Tiger-Lilly.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > May you accept Christ as your Lord and Savior, someday.
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Oh, but she said that she already did so.
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > Her being untruthful suggests otherwise.
> > > >
> > >
> > > I don't see anything in her post that is demonstrably untrue.
> >
> > Google SMC for the quoted phrase
> >
> > "blessed as truthful and Christ-like"
> >
> > that Tiger-Lilly claims has been written multiple times (presumably at least once per
> > "antic" with multiple "antics").
> >
> > > She is
> > > giving her opinion.
> >
> > Yes, she claims to be mortified about observing something (the blessing of "antics"
> > and the characterization of "antics" being Christlike) that has occurred here at SMC.
>
> Ok, this "Christ-like" seems to be an exageration on Lilys part.
>
Glad you agree that she has been untruthful.
>
> Thorsten
Truly, it is my hope you will start reading the "Good News," visit a local Christian
church, pray, and open your heart to let in the Holy Spirit.
Humbly,
Andrew
--
Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
Board-Certified Cardiologist
http://www.heartmdphd.com
Stephen Nagler
<and...@heartmdphd.com> wrote:
>My praying for you (Stephen, Tiger, Steve, Mattb, Bob et al) to accept Christ as your Lord
>and Savior should fit your idea of my "loving" my neighbors.
..............
Bullshit. (Speaking for myself.)
What would have fit my idea of your loving your neighbors would have
been your considered effort at answering my question posed in the
"Question regarding aspirin" thread so that many of your neighbors
(including me) could have benefitted from your knowledge and
experience. What you did instead was make a considered effort
specifically at *not* answering the question. *That* tells me what's
in your heart - and it is NOT love. You must think God is stupid or
something if you think He will heed prayers coming from a heart such
as yours. You are paying the Lord lip service - that's all. And you
can just bet He knows it.
smn
Thorsten Schier
"Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" schrieb:
>
> Thorsten Schier wrote:
>
> > "Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" schrieb:
> > >
[...]
> > > God does not want that. If He did, then He would not have sacrificed His Son.
> >
> > According to what I gathered about your believe, you seem to believe
> > that everybody who has not accepted Christ as their Lord and Savior at
> > the time of their death are doomed for eternal hell.
>
> Yes.
>
> > Now, that's not my
> > idea of "loving" your enemies,
>
> My praying for you (Stephen, Tiger, Steve, Mattb, Bob et al) to accept Christ as your Lord
> and Savior should fit your idea of my "loving" my neighbors.
At least it does not contradict it. However, I wasn't talking about you,
but about God. And the way I see it, he sets up a moral standard (love
your neighbors and even your enemies) and then does not live up to it
himself (wants to punish people for eternity just because they didn't
believe in him until they died).
Please tell me: What could possibly hinder God from giving salvation to
everyone after their death, regardless of whether they worshipped him
prior to their death or not?
> > or even people who just don't believe in
> > you.
> >
>
> I would be happy for their sakes if they just believe in my Lord.... they do not have to
> believe in me.
Again, I was talking about God.
Exaggeration in an often used rethoric device. I wouldn't call everyone
who uses it "untruthful". And she might not have been aware of the fact
that she was using an exaggeration. I would suggest you consider giving
her the benefit of doubt.
> >
> > Thorsten
>
> Truly, it is my hope you will start reading the "Good News," visit a local Christian
> church, pray, and open your heart to let in the Holy Spirit.
>
You shouldn't get your hopes up too much. Except for the reading part.
In fact I do intend to read all the Bible one day. Might be a while,
though.
Ear Rings
"Stephen Nagler" <nag...@tinn.com> wrote in message
news:55nm0058gbn0o1p38...@4ax.com...
Carol T
>>>>>>> what a sick, twisted soul<<<<<<<
Who is your neighbour whom you love?
Carol T
Tiger Lily
"Carol T" <cteas...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:9bff2a56.04011...@posting.google.com...
who's soul i pray for
he needs it
John
<Moo...@firemail.de> wrote:
>
>
>"Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" schrieb:
>>
>> Thorsten Schier wrote:
>>
>> > "Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" schrieb:
>> > >
>[...]
>> > > God does not want that. If He did, then He would not have sacrificed His Son.
>> >
>> > According to what I gathered about your believe, you seem to believe
>> > that everybody who has not accepted Christ as their Lord and Savior at
>> > the time of their death are doomed for eternal hell.
>>
>> Yes.
>>
>> > Now, that's not my
>> > idea of "loving" your enemies,
>>
>> My praying for you (Stephen, Tiger, Steve, Mattb, Bob et al) to accept Christ as your Lord
>> and Savior should fit your idea of my "loving" my neighbors.
>
>At least it does not contradict it. However, I wasn't talking about you,
>but about God. And the way I see it, he sets up a moral standard (love
>your neighbors and even your enemies) and then does not live up to it
>himself (wants to punish people for eternity just because they didn't
>believe in him until they died).
>
>Please tell me: What could possibly hinder God from giving salvation to
>everyone after their death, regardless of whether they worshipped him
>prior to their death or not?
Just one thing - the same thing that keeps you from accepting Him in
this life - your own free will (which God gave you as a gift). If you
live your life rejecting Him, what would make you suddenly accept Him
after death?
If you think of the Bible as the user's manual for life, you don't
want to wait until it is irrevocably broken before you read it.
John
Carol T
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> But each of the three - for whatever reason -
felt
> compelled to apologize to me on behalf of mainstream Christians <<<<<<<
Dear Stephen,
Do they know the ways of God as written in The Word even before Jesus'
birth? Will they allow you to rule their nations over them without you
knowing their Saviour as your own first?
Through the love of Your Lord you cannot have a bad impression of any
man who calls himself a Christian and knows he is saved through
Christ's sacrifice. You simply have a man who is worthy of Christ's
forgiveness, regardless of what he has done, and if Christ can forgive
him how can anyone else who profess to be Christians call on you for
anything but acceptance of him?
Be careful to think in the way of God and not of men Stephen, only the
Devil would want to keep you from seeing The Light.
Carol T
Stephen Nagler
>Be careful to think in the way of God and not of men Stephen, only the
>Devil would want to keep you from seeing The Light.
>
>Carol T
...............
Carol, do you have any further questions about yuor daughter's
tinnitus?
smn
Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
> "Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" schrieb:
> >
> > Thorsten Schier wrote:
> >
> > > "Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" schrieb:
> > > >
> [...]
> > > > God does not want that. If He did, then He would not have sacrificed His Son.
> > >
> > > According to what I gathered about your believe, you seem to believe
> > > that everybody who has not accepted Christ as their Lord and Savior at
> > > the time of their death are doomed for eternal hell.
> >
> > Yes.
> >
> > > Now, that's not my
> > > idea of "loving" your enemies,
> >
> > My praying for you (Stephen, Tiger, Steve, Mattb, Bob et al) to accept Christ as your Lord
> > and Savior should fit your idea of my "loving" my neighbors.
>
> At least it does not contradict it. However, I wasn't talking about you,
> but about God. And the way I see it, he sets up a moral standard (love
> your neighbors and even your enemies) and then does not live up to it
> himself (wants to punish people for eternity just because they didn't
> believe in him until they died).
>
(If He wanted to punish people for eternity, He would not have sacrificed His beloved only Son.)
>
> Please tell me: What could possibly hinder God from giving salvation to
> everyone after their death, regardless of whether they worshipped him
> prior to their death or not?
>
For one thing, it would make His sacrifice (the torture and crucifixion of His Son, Jesus Christ)
meaningless.
>
> > > or even people who just don't believe in
> > > you.
> > >
> >
> > I would be happy for their sakes if they just believe in my Lord.... they do not have to
> > believe in me.
>
> Again, I was talking about God.
I can't speak for God.
However, I have thought and prayed for a better understanding of His will on this topic.
What I sense is the love that a parent would have for a child.
Nothing hurts the parent more than disciplining a wayward child. The worst-case scenario is
having local law enforcement lock the child up because s/he is a threat to others.
I don't.
> And she might not have been aware of the fact
> that she was using an exaggeration. I would suggest you consider giving
> her the benefit of doubt.
>
I know her history so there is no doubt to give.
>
> > >
> > > Thorsten
> >
> > Truly, it is my hope you will start reading the "Good News," visit a local Christian
> > church, pray, and open your heart to let in the Holy Spirit.
> >
>
> You shouldn't get your hopes up too much. Except for the reading part.
> In fact I do intend to read all the Bible one day. Might be a while,
> though.
>
Better late than never.
>
> Thorsten
>
I will continue to pray for you, in Christ's name.
Humbly,
Andrew
--
Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
Board-Certified Cardiologist
http://www.heartmdphd.com
Carol T
>>>>>>>> Please tell me: What could possibly hinder God from giving
salvation to everyone after their death, regardless of whether they
worshipped him
> prior to their death or not?<<<<<<<<<<<
Here is why......God will be in Heaven where men will not be to
receive salvation from Him. They will have allowed their children of
His earth to know only the devil and his ways. If the devil rules
their world they will have him in their death, for not one child will
pray for the Holy Spirit to fall on another's soul. They will live as
they have been taught, in fear and distrust of one another, without
care and love, without a path to their Saviour, or without prayer,
until the day of own their destruction. This hell will belong to each
individual alone; all eternity to dwell on what could have been _now_.
And if you doubt what I say, doubt it with caution and air on the side
of God's Grace. You only have this moment to be saved from your sins,
you do not know what happens the moment after that.
Hear The Word on all matters.
"They say, 'God lays up one's iniquity for his children'; Let Him
recompense him, that he may know it. Let his eyes see his destruction,
And let him drink of the wrath of the Almighty. For what does he care
about his household after him, When the number of his months is cut in
half? "Can anyone teach God knowledge, Since He judges those on high?
One dies in his full strength, Being wholly at ease and secure; His
pails are full of milk, And the marrow of his bones is moist. Another
man dies in the bitterness of his soul, Never having eaten with
pleasure. They lie down alike in the dust, And worms cover them.
"Look, I know your thoughts, And the schemes with which you would
wrong me. "For you say, 'Where is the house of the nobleman, And where
is the tent, the dwelling places of the wicked?' Have you not asked
those who travel the road? And do you not know their signs? "For the
wicked are reserved for the day of doom; They shall be brought out on
the day of wrath." NKJ Job 21:19-30
As it advises us in Proverbs 1:7, we should 'Fear the Lord' as it is
the beginning of all wisdom and knowledge.
Jesus paid a high price to ask for your forgivness and to save your
life for eternity, it is yours in return for your sin.
Carol T
Bob
> On Tue, 20 Jan 2004 00:50:19 +0100, Thorsten Schier
> <Moo...@firemail.de> wrote:
>>Please tell me: What could possibly hinder God from giving salvation to
>>everyone after their death, regardless of whether they worshipped him
>>prior to their death or not?
>
>
> Just one thing - the same thing that keeps you from accepting Him in
> this life - your own free will (which God gave you as a gift). If you
> live your life rejecting Him, what would make you suddenly accept Him
> after death?
Oh, look. "John" the colossal shitwit is using "logic" to explain
god's actions. Speaking for him, but only hypothetically. According to
intellectually weightless "John," god should be considered and judged
by the same terms that "John" evaluates his buddies in the trailer park.
A real heavyweight. The correct answer, "John," is "Nothing."
Pastorio
John
Bob, you keep missing the point. It is not about me. Nor is it about
you. It is about God.
John
Bob
Poor "John." That's exactly what has whoooshed over your dim head. Let
me make it easier for you. Here's the dialogue in short:
Q: What could hinder god?
A: Nothing.
See how it works?
That's what putting *no limits* on god is about. You can't speak to
god's impulsions and actions and you most assuredly can't predict any
future actions with surety. God has changed his mind on more than one
occasion. All you can do is evaluate them in retrospect. Poor dim
"John." It really is about god and not your feeble "explanations"
about how god moves. Think "mysterious." Have someone explain that
reference to you.
Bob
John
>John wrote:
>
>> On Tue, 20 Jan 2004 01:27:38 -0500, Bob <past...@nospam.com> wrote:
>>
>>>John wrote:
>>>
>>>>On Tue, 20 Jan 2004 00:50:19 +0100, Thorsten Schier
>>>><Moo...@firemail.de> wrote:
>>>
>>>>>Please tell me: What could possibly hinder God from giving salvation to
>>>>>everyone after their death, regardless of whether they worshipped him
>>>>>prior to their death or not?
>>>>
>>>>Just one thing - the same thing that keeps you from accepting Him in
>>>>this life - your own free will (which God gave you as a gift). If you
>>>>live your life rejecting Him, what would make you suddenly accept Him
>>>>after death?
>>>
>>>
{....} ad hominem deleted.
>>>
{....} ad hominem deleted.
>>>The correct answer, "John," is "Nothing."
>>>
>>>Pastorio
>>
>> Bob, you keep missing the point. It is not about me. Nor is it about
>> you. It is about God.
>
{....} ad hominem deleted.
>Let me make it easier for you. Here's the dialogue in short:
>Q: What could hinder god?
>A: Nothing.
>
>See how it works?
>
>That's what putting *no limits* on god is about. You can't speak to
>god's impulsions and actions and you most assuredly can't predict any
>future actions with surety. God has changed his mind on more than one
>occasion. All you can do is evaluate them in retrospect.
{....} ad hominem deleted.
>It really is about god and not your feeble "explanations"
>about how god moves. Think "mysterious." Have someone explain that
>reference to you.
>
>Bob
Bob, I've deleted your ad hominem remarks. You might notice that you
sound more reasonable, rational, less angry, etc without them. But I
think all your points are still there.
Clearly, I, "John", can put no limits on God. Only God can put limits
on Himself. But that doesn't stop people from wondering about what
God's self imposed limits might be - if any.
Lately, I have been persuaded by the arguments put forth by proponents
of "open theology." For more on this you could look here:
www.gregboyd.org. For more on specifically this question you can look
here: http://www.gregboyd.org/gbfront/index.asp?PageID=516
Greg Boyd does a much better job of explaining this than I ever could.
Nevertheless, it goes something like this:
1) God, the creator of the universe, loves His creation;
2) God wants His creation to love Him in return;
3) God created Man in His image, with Free Will, so that we can truly
chose to love Him in return.
4) Without choice there is no love.
5) Hence, individuals have the ability to chose to love God or not, to
commit murder or not, to love their neighbor or not, etc., secure in
the knowledge that God will not force the choice. We can also chose
to have eternal life - or not.
John
Thorsten Schier
John schrieb:
For one I would know that he exists, unlikely as that may seem.
And why would that matter for him?
Er, no, I don't really think that the bible is a suitable manual for
life ...
Thorsten Schier
"Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" schrieb:
>
> Thorsten Schier wrote:
>
> > "Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" schrieb:
> > >
> > > Thorsten Schier wrote:
> > >
> > > > "Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" schrieb:
> > > > >
> > [...]
> > > > > God does not want that. If He did, then He would not have sacrificed His Son.
> > > >
> > > > According to what I gathered about your believe, you seem to believe
> > > > that everybody who has not accepted Christ as their Lord and Savior at
> > > > the time of their death are doomed for eternal hell.
> > >
> > > Yes.
> > >
> > > > Now, that's not my
> > > > idea of "loving" your enemies,
> > >
> > > My praying for you (Stephen, Tiger, Steve, Mattb, Bob et al) to accept Christ as your Lord
> > > and Savior should fit your idea of my "loving" my neighbors.
> >
> > At least it does not contradict it. However, I wasn't talking about you,
> > but about God. And the way I see it, he sets up a moral standard (love
> > your neighbors and even your enemies) and then does not live up to it
> > himself (wants to punish people for eternity just because they didn't
> > believe in him until they died).
> >
>
> (If He wanted to punish people for eternity, He would not have sacrificed His beloved only Son.)
Whether he wants to punish them or not, according to your belief, he
will punish the vast majority of mankind, thus not living up to the
moral standard he set.
> >
> > Please tell me: What could possibly hinder God from giving salvation to
> > everyone after their death, regardless of whether they worshipped him
> > prior to their death or not?
> >
>
> For one thing, it would make His sacrifice (the torture and crucifixion of His Son, Jesus Christ)
> meaningless.
Why would it make his sacrifice meaningless if he allows people to
accept it after their death? I see no reason for this.
And here's another consideration:
You and I, we had or still have the choice, whether we want to believe
in God or not, if you want to put it that they (I wouldn't really call
it a choice, just as it is not really a choice of mine that I think that
the earth is a globe and not flat).
But what about people in other cultures? What about people raised in
islamic or hinduistic countries? Are they doomed for eternity just
because they have the bad luck (from a Christian viewpoint) to live in a
country where they are raised in another belief, where they were taught
other religions? What about people in countries like Saudi Arabia where
people risk their life if they abandon their islamic belief?
What about people that were killed in the name of Christ? Are you
suggesting that the Christian conquerers of South and Middle America who
frequently burned native Indians who would not accept Christian beliefs
are now in heaven (because they accepted Christ as their Lord and
Savior), while their victims are now in hell (because they didn't do
so)?
> >
> > > > or even people who just don't believe in
> > > > you.
> > > >
> > >
> > > I would be happy for their sakes if they just believe in my Lord.... they do not have to
> > > believe in me.
> >
> > Again, I was talking about God.
>
> I can't speak for God.
>
> However, I have thought and prayed for a better understanding of His will on this topic.
>
> What I sense is the love that a parent would have for a child.
>
> Nothing hurts the parent more than disciplining a wayward child. The worst-case scenario is
> having local law enforcement lock the child up because s/he is a threat to others.
And yet, most parents would still regard the child as their child, even
if locked up.
Thorsten Schier
Carol T schrieb:
>
> Thorsten Schier <Moo...@firemail.de> wrote in message news:<400C6D3...@firemail.de>...
>
>
> >>>>>>>> Please tell me: What could possibly hinder God from giving
> salvation to everyone after their death, regardless of whether they
> worshipped him
> > prior to their death or not?<<<<<<<<<<<
>
> Here is why......God will be in Heaven where men will not be to
> receive salvation from Him. They will have allowed their children of
> His earth to know only the devil and his ways. If the devil rules
> their world they will have him in their death, for not one child will
> pray for the Holy Spirit to fall on another's soul.
Now this is a bit strange. Why would a person not believing in God "know
only the devil and his ways"? Most people who don't believe in God,
won't believe in devil or satan either. The devil only makes sense when
there also is a god. So what you wrote does not make any sense to me.
Mucho M_uns
<Moo...@firemail.de> wrote:
>Please tell me: What could possibly hinder God from giving salvation to
>everyone after their death, regardless of whether they worshipped him
>prior to their death or not?
Thorsten, I have been patient in watching your posts, explaining to
you that as long as you set the rules for God's judgments, activities.
Your unbelievably prideful and ridiculous primary assertion that God,
somehow, must meet your criteria instead of you meeting His, well,
Sport, I have no more time for you.
http://www.moonglow.net/ccd/pictures/moon/index.html
Lift well, Eat less, Walk fast, Live long.
Carol T
> who's soul i pray for
> he needs it<<<<<<<<<<<
"But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of
the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to
glory, just as by the Spirit of the Lord. " 2Cr 3:18 NKJ
Should we pray for our own souls first before we look into the mirror
of another? We might not like who we see there otherwise as all of us
are sinners.
Carol T
Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
According to my belief, it is possible for everyone to be saved if everyone accepted Christ as their
Lord and Savior.
>
> > >
> > > Please tell me: What could possibly hinder God from giving salvation to
> > > everyone after their death, regardless of whether they worshipped him
> > > prior to their death or not?
> > >
> >
> > For one thing, it would make His sacrifice (the torture and crucifixion of His Son, Jesus Christ)
> > meaningless.
>
> Why would it make his sacrifice meaningless if he allows people to
> accept it after their death?
After their death such "acceptance" would no longer be an act of free will. After death, everyone will
*know* that Christ is the Messiah, the Annointed one, the Savior, and the Divine Son of God even if
they don't like it.
For it is written in the Holy Bible in 2nd Philippians:
9Therefore God exalted him to the highest place
and gave him the name that is above every name,
10that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.
> I see no reason for this.
>
But you *will*.
>
> And here's another consideration:
>
> You and I, we had or still have the choice, whether we want to believe
> in God or not, if you want to put it that they (I wouldn't really call
> it a choice, just as it is not really a choice of mine that I think that
> the earth is a globe and not flat).
(Your knowledge that the earth is more spheroid than pancake is analogous to the knowledge you gain of
God when you die. You are correct that this is not a choice. Your lack of knowledge about exactly how
the universe was before the "big bang" would more closely approximate your current state of "choice")
>
>
> But what about people in other cultures?
They remain God's concern and no concern of y/ours (unless we are called to carry the Word to them).
> What about people raised in
> islamic or hinduistic countries?
They remain God's concern and no concern of y/ours (unless we are called to carry the Word to them).
> Are they doomed for eternity just
> because they have the bad luck (from a Christian viewpoint) to live in a
> country where they are raised in another belief, where they were taught
> other religions?
They remain God's concern and no concern of y/ours (unless we are called to carry the Word to them).
> What about people in countries like Saudi Arabia where
> people risk their life if they abandon their islamic belief?
>
They remain God's concern and no concern of y/ours (unless we are called to carry the Word to them).
>
> What about people that were killed in the name of Christ?
They were God's concern and was no concern of y/ours (unless we were called to carry the Word to them).
> Are you
> suggesting that the Christian conquerers of South and Middle America who
> frequently burned native Indians who would not accept Christian beliefs
> are now in heaven (because they accepted Christ as their Lord and
> Savior), while their victims are now in hell (because they didn't do
> so)?
>
They were God's concern and was no concern of y/ours (unless we were called to carry the Word to them).
>
> > >
> > > > > or even people who just don't believe in
> > > > > you.
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > I would be happy for their sakes if they just believe in my Lord.... they do not have to
> > > > believe in me.
> > >
> > > Again, I was talking about God.
> >
> > I can't speak for God.
> >
> > However, I have thought and prayed for a better understanding of His will on this topic.
> >
> > What I sense is the love that a parent would have for a child.
> >
> > Nothing hurts the parent more than disciplining a wayward child. The worst-case scenario is
> > having local law enforcement lock the child up because s/he is a threat to others.
>
> And yet, most parents would still regard the child as their child, even
> if locked up.
>
I sense that God feels the same way.
>
> Thorsten
It remains my hope that you will read the Holy Bible and open your heart to the Good News, Thorsten.
Humbly,
Andrew
--
Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
Board-Certified Cardiologist
http://www.heartmdphd.com
Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
> Carol T schrieb:
> >
> > Thorsten Schier <Moo...@firemail.de> wrote in message news:<400C6D3...@firemail.de>...
> >
> >
> > >>>>>>>> Please tell me: What could possibly hinder God from giving
> > salvation to everyone after their death, regardless of whether they
> > worshipped him
> > > prior to their death or not?<<<<<<<<<<<
> >
> > Here is why......God will be in Heaven where men will not be to
> > receive salvation from Him. They will have allowed their children of
> > His earth to know only the devil and his ways. If the devil rules
> > their world they will have him in their death, for not one child will
> > pray for the Holy Spirit to fall on another's soul.
>
> Now this is a bit strange. Why would a person not believing in God "know
> only the devil and his ways"?
Satan is also known as the "Prince of the world." The world we live in as mortals is Satan's
dominion.
> Most people who don't believe in God,
> won't believe in devil or satan either.
Satan owns non-believers.
> The devil only makes sense when
> there also is a god. So what you wrote does not make any sense to me.
>
All that is evil and unjust in this world are the works of Satan.
Open your eyes and look around you, Thorsten.
>
> Thorsten
>
You remain in my prayers, Thorsten.
Please read the Holy Bible starting with the Gospel according to John.
Humbly,
Andrew
--
Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
Board-Certified Cardiologist
http://www.heartmdphd.com
Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
That we all are, Carol.
May God continue to bless you and yours, in Christ's name.
John
<and...@heartmdphd.com> wrote:
>Thorsten Schier wrote:
>
>> Carol T schrieb:
>> >
>> > Thorsten Schier <Moo...@firemail.de> wrote in message news:<400C6D3...@firemail.de>...
>> >
>> >
>> > >>>>>>>> Please tell me: What could possibly hinder God from giving
>> > salvation to everyone after their death, regardless of whether they
>> > worshipped him
>> > > prior to their death or not?<<<<<<<<<<<
>> >
>> > Here is why......God will be in Heaven where men will not be to
>> > receive salvation from Him. They will have allowed their children of
>> > His earth to know only the devil and his ways. If the devil rules
>> > their world they will have him in their death, for not one child will
>> > pray for the Holy Spirit to fall on another's soul.
>>
>> Now this is a bit strange. Why would a person not believing in God "know
>> only the devil and his ways"?
>
>Satan is also known as the "Prince of the world." The world we live in as mortals is Satan's
>dominion.
>
>> Most people who don't believe in God,
>> won't believe in devil or satan either.
>
>Satan owns non-believers.
.....and guards them jealously to prevent them from hearing and
believing the Word.
John
John
<and...@heartmdphd.com> wrote:
>Thorsten Schier wrote:
>> But what about people in other cultures?
>
>They remain God's concern and no concern of y/ours (unless we are called to carry the Word to them).
>
>> What about people raised in
>> islamic or hinduistic countries?
>
>They remain God's concern and no concern of y/ours (unless we are called to carry the Word to them).
>
>> Are they doomed for eternity just
>> because they have the bad luck (from a Christian viewpoint) to live in a
>> country where they are raised in another belief, where they were taught
>> other religions?
>
>They remain God's concern and no concern of y/ours (unless we are called to carry the Word to them).
>
>> What about people in countries like Saudi Arabia where
>> people risk their life if they abandon their islamic belief?
>>
>
>They remain God's concern and no concern of y/ours (unless we are called to carry the Word to them).
The above questions are interesting to debate but have nothing to do
with your own situation. They are like the distractor answers in a
multiple choice quiz.
Thorsten, the question you need to answer is, "What about Thorsten,
who HAS heard the word and until now has rejected it?"
John
John
>John wrote:
>
>> On Tue, 20 Jan 2004 01:27:38 -0500, Bob <past...@nospam.com> wrote:
>>
>>>John wrote:
>>>
>>>>On Tue, 20 Jan 2004 00:50:19 +0100, Thorsten Schier
>>>><Moo...@firemail.de> wrote:
>>>
>>>>>Please tell me: What could possibly hinder God from giving salvation to
>>>>>everyone after their death, regardless of whether they worshipped him
>>>>>prior to their death or not?
>>>>
>>>>Just one thing - the same thing that keeps you from accepting Him in
>>>>this life - your own free will (which God gave you as a gift). If you
>>>>live your life rejecting Him, what would make you suddenly accept Him
>>>>after death?
>>>
>>>
{....} ad hominem deleted.
>>>
{....} ad hominem deleted.
>>>The correct answer, "John," is "Nothing."
>>>
>>>Pastorio
>>
>> Bob, you keep missing the point. It is not about me. Nor is it about
>> you. It is about God.
>
{....} ad hominem deleted.
>Let me make it easier for you. Here's the dialogue in short:
>Q: What could hinder god?
>A: Nothing.
>
>See how it works?
>
>That's what putting *no limits* on god is about. You can't speak to
>god's impulsions and actions and you most assuredly can't predict any
>future actions with surety. God has changed his mind on more than one
>occasion. All you can do is evaluate them in retrospect.
{....} ad hominem deleted.
>It really is about god and not your feeble "explanations"
>about how god moves. Think "mysterious." Have someone explain that
>reference to you.
>
>Bob
Bob, I've deleted your ad hominem remarks. You might notice that you
Bob
"John," you confuse me with someone who actually considers your
opinions worth observing. You're shallow amusement; target practice.
As long as you try to play the apparently dishonest games you do, this
is the best you can hope for. Praise and defend Chung's antics as you
have? No respect. Offer a more moderate view? Maybe.
> Clearly, I, "John", can put no limits on God. Only God can put limits
> on Himself. But that doesn't stop people from wondering about what
> God's self imposed limits might be - if any.
What a pointless exercise.
God is, by definition and description, omnipotent, omniscient and
eternal. The scale of that, the order of magnitude is so far beyond
our meager capacity to fathom as to make any such thinking nothing
more than mental chewing gum. You want to experience god's breadth,
look up on a clear night, watch birth. You want to understand god's
subtleties, listen to Beethoven, smell a rose. You want to understand
god's generosity, touch your lover, savor chocolate. You want to
"touch the face of god," fly an airplane at mach 2 straight up until
it stalls, jump off a bridge with rubber bands tied to your ankles.
Feeling the presence of god isn't an abstract intellectual exercise.
We all touch god all day, every day, but some people can't feel the
grand and terrible vastness of it all. We live today in the world, and
any living person who denies that is a fool. We live in the world to
learn, to assimilate information. To evolve and improve ourselves.
You and the rest of the Proselytizing Wackos think that you can
understand anything about god. You actually believe that god is
subject to pondering like a beverage or a mountaintop or a pencil. It
has simply gotten beyond you that god has no rules and god has no
limits and you and I can't understand even the shadow of what that
means. The difference is that I know it. Yes, know. Because I know I
can't understand the enormity.
All this tortured "reasoning" is based on myth and fiction. If you
want to see god, watch a child of yours be born, hold her while she
emerges from the body of your wife/lover, wipe the blood and mucus of
birth from her skin, the skin that is the blend of your skin and your
lover's skin. Listen to her first cry and see life.
You won't need this airy intellectualizing to grasp this tiniest, most
minuscule glimpse of infinity.
> Lately, I have been persuaded by the arguments put forth by proponents
> of "open theology." For more on this you could look here:
> www.gregboyd.org. For more on specifically this question you can look
> here: http://www.gregboyd.org/gbfront/index.asp?PageID=516
>
> Greg Boyd does a much better job of explaining this than I ever could.
> Nevertheless, it goes something like this:
> 1) God, the creator of the universe, loves His creation;
> 2) God wants His creation to love Him in return;
> 3) God created Man in His image, with Free Will, so that we can truly
> chose to love Him in return.
This makes god sound like a petulant infant. Funny how this
description makes the omnipotent, omniscient, eternal creator of the
universe rather petty isn't it?
> 4) Without choice there is no love.
Really? I missed that part of the definition. One can choose to have
feelings? Love is a complex package of emotions. Who has the choice to
feel or not? We only have the choice to act on them or not.
> 5) Hence, individuals have the ability to chose to love God or not, to
> commit murder or not, to love their neighbor or not, etc., secure in
> the knowledge that God will not force the choice.
Was it god who did the pillar of salt trick after destroying Sodom and
Gomorra? Was it god who flooded the world? God won't force it? What
bible are you reading, the Cheerful Smurf version?
> We can also chose
> to have eternal life - or not.
True faith isn't a choice. One cannot simply decide to believe. People
need convincing because that's how people are. It is a pro-survival
characteristic to seek surety and enough information to feel safe in
any course of action. One can be frightened into believing (look at
church attendance after earthquakes). One can be brainwashed into
believing (look at Jonestown). One can be gradually led into believing
over time (look at parochial school students). But one cannot choose
to believe without other actions and conditions in effect.
I went to the page cited. It's utter nonsense and garbled reasoning.
He plays word games and empty logical sophistry and arrives at some
rather silly conclusions. He says that we have absolute freedom to do
whatever we want.
The guy apparently has never heard of instinct, mental retardation, or
sincere difference of understanding. If we choose a course of action
dictated by instinct or bias, he says, means that we also had the
choice *not* to follow it and that's freedom. He posits a binary
system of decision making. The reality is that many choices are moot
because we cannot choose them for whatever reason.
If god is omniscient, that means that nothing you or I do will be a
surprise to him. He knows how we will proceed and how we will end. To
deny that it to deny a central characteristic of god. Call it
predestination or foreknowledge or whatever term you want, but if you
believe that god is omnipotent, you cannot believe that he doesn't
know *everything.*
To say that because god has those characteristics of full freedom,
humans do too is a logical leap that is nothing less than a logical
and theological absurdity.
We're done, "John."
Pastorio
Bob
> On Tue, 20 Jan 2004 00:50:19 +0100, Thorsten Schier
> <Moo...@firemail.de> wrote:
>
>>Please tell me: What could possibly hinder God from giving salvation to
>>everyone after their death, regardless of whether they worshipped him
>>prior to their death or not?
Oh, look. Read below and see that Much Mu_cus either can't read or
can't reason. Or maybe both. Also can't write a sentence in English
(did he go to the same schools as Chung?).
> Thorsten, I have been patient in watching your posts, explaining to
> you that as long as you set the rules for God's judgments, activities.
... yeah... and... uh, yeah...
> Your unbelievably prideful and ridiculous primary assertion that God,
> somehow, must meet your criteria instead of you meeting His,
Poor illiterate Much Mu_lch. Thorsten asked a question that is
profoundly germane to the silly and superficial conditions of
salvation postulated by the Proselytizing Wackos and other fanatics
who believe as they do. Thorsten didn't try to make anything fit
anything. He just asked a question that all the ProWacs will either
stay far away from or do their dervish reasoning to a gasbag
conclusion that would make any other illiterate idiot like them laugh.
> well,
> Sport, I have no more time for you.
Somehow, I suspect that Much Mu_dpie will find other occasions to post
more of his studiously stupid stuff in the future. I mean, Mush
Mu_lberry has such a wonderful history of honesty and integrity.
Bob
Carol T
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> God has changed his mind on more than one
> occasion. All you can do is evaluate them in retrospect. Poor dim
> "John." It really is about god and not your feeble "explanations"
> about how god moves. Think "mysterious." Have someone explain that
> reference to you.<<<<<<<<<<<
Bob, have fear for what you cannot understand or explain and yet
acknowledge is mysterious to you, and love your neighbours in God's
way.
"And He said, "To you it has been given to know the mysteries of the
kingdom of God, but to the rest it is given in parables, that 'Seeing
they may not see, And hearing they may not understand. Now the parable
is this: The seed is the word of God. Those by the wayside are the
ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of
their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. But the ones on
the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and
these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation
fall away. Now the ones that fell among thorns are those who, when
they have heard, go out and are choked with cares, riches, and
pleasures of life, and bring no fruit to maturity. But the {seed} in
the good soil, these are the ones who have heard the word in an honest
and good heart, and hold it fast, and bear fruit with perseverance."
Luke 8:10-15
Be careful where you sow your seeds and in whose soil are they thrown
down because evil loiters around your feet. Make sure they fall in
God's soil He has a mysterious purpose for your life Bob, let it
reveal itself to you.
Carol T
Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
But the truth about Bob is lost. Those ad hominem remarks reveal what is truly
in Bob's heart:
(1) Anger
(2) Hatred
(3) Irrational obsessions
(4) Fear
With Bob, the gift of truth discernment is not really needed. He is as
transparent as they come...
...and Satan owns him.
And, I will continue to pray for him, in Christ's name.
Humbly,
Andrew
--
Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
Board-Certified Cardiologist
http://www.heartmdphd.com/
Carol T
> Now this is a bit strange. Why would a person not believing in God "know
> only the devil and his ways"? Most people who don't believe in God,
> won't believe in devil or satan either. The devil only makes sense when
> there also is a god. So what you wrote does not make any sense to me.
"Horror hath taken hold upon me because of the wicked that forsake thy
law." (Psalm 119:53 Webster's)
"And these are the ones by the wayside where the word is sown. When
they hear, Satan comes immediately and takes away the word that was
sown in their hearts." NKJ Mark 1:5
I pray that when you hear The Word it is safe from Satan's claws.
Carol T
Thorsten Schier
"Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" schrieb:
>
> Thorsten Schier wrote:
>
> > Carol T schrieb:
> > >
> > > Thorsten Schier <Moo...@firemail.de> wrote in message news:<400C6D3...@firemail.de>...
> > >
> > >
> > > >>>>>>>> Please tell me: What could possibly hinder God from giving
> > > salvation to everyone after their death, regardless of whether they
> > > worshipped him
> > > > prior to their death or not?<<<<<<<<<<<
> > >
> > > Here is why......God will be in Heaven where men will not be to
> > > receive salvation from Him. They will have allowed their children of
> > > His earth to know only the devil and his ways. If the devil rules
> > > their world they will have him in their death, for not one child will
> > > pray for the Holy Spirit to fall on another's soul.
> >
> > Now this is a bit strange. Why would a person not believing in God "know
> > only the devil and his ways"?
>
> Satan is also known as the "Prince of the world." The world we live in as mortals is Satan's
> dominion.
>
> > Most people who don't believe in God,
> > won't believe in devil or satan either.
>
> Satan owns non-believers.
So you suggest that he is more tolerant than God?
> > The devil only makes sense when
> > there also is a god. So what you wrote does not make any sense to me.
> >
>
> All that is evil and unjust in this world are the works of Satan.
This seems to be erroneous, unless you want to suggest that the churches
have been the work of Satan for most of our history (inquisition,
crusades etc.) and that the Bibel, too, is at least in part the work of
Satan (for example 2. Samuel 8,2 - Numeri 31 - Deuteronium 2,31).
> Open your eyes and look around you, Thorsten.
My eyes are not closed. But what I see suggests that religion is part of
the problem, rather than part of the solution.
> >
> > Thorsten
> >
>
> You remain in my prayers, Thorsten.
>
> Please read the Holy Bible starting with the Gospel according to John.
>
Seems to make more sense starting at the beginning.
Thorsten Schier
But this is not going to happen. So according to your belief god will
punish all those not accepting Christ as their Lord and Savior, thus not
living up to the moral standard he set.
> >
> > > >
> > > > Please tell me: What could possibly hinder God from giving salvation to
> > > > everyone after their death, regardless of whether they worshipped him
> > > > prior to their death or not?
> > > >
> > >
> > > For one thing, it would make His sacrifice (the torture and crucifixion of His Son, Jesus Christ)
> > > meaningless.
> >
> > Why would it make his sacrifice meaningless if he allows people to
> > accept it after their death?
>
> After their death such "acceptance" would no longer be an act of free will. After death, everyone will
> *know* that Christ is the Messiah, the Annointed one, the Savior, and the Divine Son of God even if
> they don't like it.
And that is exactly the point. I would be nothing less than fair for the
people to know all the facts before making a decision.
However, according to your belief, God expects us to believe in him as a
good and loving entity while his followers on earth are often enough
doers of evil and apologists of evil.
> For it is written in the Holy Bible in 2nd Philippians:
>
> 9Therefore God exalted him to the highest place
> and gave him the name that is above every name,
> 10that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
> in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
> 11and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord,
> to the glory of God the Father.
>
> > I see no reason for this.
> >
>
> But you *will*.
I think not.
> >
> > And here's another consideration:
> >
> > You and I, we had or still have the choice, whether we want to believe
> > in God or not, if you want to put it that they (I wouldn't really call
> > it a choice, just as it is not really a choice of mine that I think that
> > the earth is a globe and not flat).
>
> (Your knowledge that the earth is more spheroid than pancake is analogous to the knowledge you gain of
> God when you die. You are correct that this is not a choice. Your lack of knowledge about exactly how
> the universe was before the "big bang" would more closely approximate your current state of "choice")
>
> >
> >
> > But what about people in other cultures?
>
> They remain God's concern and no concern of y/ours (unless we are called to carry the Word to them).
But I make them my concern.
> > What about people raised in
> > islamic or hinduistic countries?
>
> They remain God's concern and no concern of y/ours (unless we are called to carry the Word to them).
>
> > Are they doomed for eternity just
> > because they have the bad luck (from a Christian viewpoint) to live in a
> > country where they are raised in another belief, where they were taught
> > other religions?
>
> They remain God's concern and no concern of y/ours (unless we are called to carry the Word to them).
>
> > What about people in countries like Saudi Arabia where
> > people risk their life if they abandon their islamic belief?
> >
>
> They remain God's concern and no concern of y/ours (unless we are called to carry the Word to them).
>
> >
> > What about people that were killed in the name of Christ?
>
> They were God's concern and was no concern of y/ours (unless we were called to carry the Word to them).
>
> > Are you
> > suggesting that the Christian conquerers of South and Middle America who
> > frequently burned native Indians who would not accept Christian beliefs
> > are now in heaven (because they accepted Christ as their Lord and
> > Savior), while their victims are now in hell (because they didn't do
> > so)?
> >
>
> They were God's concern and was no concern of y/ours (unless we were called to carry the Word to them).
Again, I make them my concern. For most of the history of the last 2000
years Christians have been responsible for a large part (probably the
majority) of atrocities in our world. This does not make the Christian
beliefs and their alleged moral standards very credible.
Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
> "Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" schrieb:
> >
> > Thorsten Schier wrote:
> >
> > > Carol T schrieb:
> > > >
> > > > Thorsten Schier <Moo...@firemail.de> wrote in message news:<400C6D3...@firemail.de>...
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > >>>>>>>> Please tell me: What could possibly hinder God from giving
> > > > salvation to everyone after their death, regardless of whether they
> > > > worshipped him
> > > > > prior to their death or not?<<<<<<<<<<<
> > > >
> > > > Here is why......God will be in Heaven where men will not be to
> > > > receive salvation from Him. They will have allowed their children of
> > > > His earth to know only the devil and his ways. If the devil rules
> > > > their world they will have him in their death, for not one child will
> > > > pray for the Holy Spirit to fall on another's soul.
> > >
> > > Now this is a bit strange. Why would a person not believing in God "know
> > > only the devil and his ways"?
> >
> > Satan is also known as the "Prince of the world." The world we live in as mortals is Satan's
> > dominion.
> >
> > > Most people who don't believe in God,
> > > won't believe in devil or satan either.
> >
> > Satan owns non-believers.
>
> So you suggest that he is more tolerant than God?
>
I would suggest that Satan's standards are lower... much lower.
>
> > > The devil only makes sense when
> > > there also is a god. So what you wrote does not make any sense to me.
> > >
> >
> > All that is evil and unjust in this world are the works of Satan.
>
> This seems to be erroneous, unless you want to suggest that the churches
> have been the work of Satan for most of our history
God will judge.
> (inquisition,
> crusades etc.)
Again, God will judge.
> and that the Bibel, too, is at least in part the work of
> Satan (for example 2. Samuel 8,2 - Numeri 31 - Deuteronium 2,31).
>
The reporting of history is not by itself evil or unjust. Nor are the deaths of those whom God has
judged to be evil.
>
> > Open your eyes and look around you, Thorsten.
>
> My eyes are not closed.
Then look around.
> But what I see suggests that religion is part of
> the problem, rather than part of the solution.
>
How are the folks who have no religion (ie Bob Pastorio and Steve-nospam) behaving here?
>
> > >
> > > Thorsten
> > >
> >
> > You remain in my prayers, Thorsten.
> >
> > Please read the Holy Bible starting with the Gospel according to John.
> >
>
> Seems to make more sense starting at the beginning.
>
The Gospel according to John does start at the beginning.
>
> Thorsten
I will continue to pray for you, in Christ's name.
Humbly,
Andrew
--
Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
Board-Certified Cardiologist
http://www.heartmdphd.com/
Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
I don't know that.
> So according to your belief god will
> punish all those not accepting Christ as their Lord and Savior, thus not
> living up to the moral standard he set.
>
Accepting Christ is not a moral standard but rather a respectful acknowledgement of God's merciful sacrifice
on our behalf.
>
> > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Please tell me: What could possibly hinder God from giving salvation to
> > > > > everyone after their death, regardless of whether they worshipped him
> > > > > prior to their death or not?
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > For one thing, it would make His sacrifice (the torture and crucifixion of His Son, Jesus Christ)
> > > > meaningless.
> > >
> > > Why would it make his sacrifice meaningless if he allows people to
> > > accept it after their death?
> >
> > After their death such "acceptance" would no longer be an act of free will. After death, everyone will
> > *know* that Christ is the Messiah, the Annointed one, the Savior, and the Divine Son of God even if
> > they don't like it.
>
> And that is exactly the point. I would be nothing less than fair for the
> people to know all the facts before making a decision.
>
You now know all the facts.
>
> However, according to your belief, God expects us to believe in him as a
> good and loving entity while his followers on earth are often enough
> doers of evil and apologists of evil.
>
Those who truly have Christ in their hearts will not be doers of evil.
>
> > For it is written in the Holy Bible in 2nd Philippians:
> >
> > 9Therefore God exalted him to the highest place
> > and gave him the name that is above every name,
> > 10that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
> > in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
> > 11and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord,
> > to the glory of God the Father.
> >
> > > I see no reason for this.
> > >
> >
> > But you *will*.
>
> I think not.
>
That would be your choice.
>
> > >
> > > And here's another consideration:
> > >
> > > You and I, we had or still have the choice, whether we want to believe
> > > in God or not, if you want to put it that they (I wouldn't really call
> > > it a choice, just as it is not really a choice of mine that I think that
> > > the earth is a globe and not flat).
> >
> > (Your knowledge that the earth is more spheroid than pancake is analogous to the knowledge you gain of
> > God when you die. You are correct that this is not a choice. Your lack of knowledge about exactly how
> > the universe was before the "big bang" would more closely approximate your current state of "choice")
> >
> > >
> > >
> > > But what about people in other cultures?
> >
> > They remain God's concern and no concern of y/ours (unless we are called to carry the Word to them).
>
> But I make them my concern.
>
That would be your choice.
>
> > > What about people raised in
> > > islamic or hinduistic countries?
> >
> > They remain God's concern and no concern of y/ours (unless we are called to carry the Word to them).
> >
> > > Are they doomed for eternity just
> > > because they have the bad luck (from a Christian viewpoint) to live in a
> > > country where they are raised in another belief, where they were taught
> > > other religions?
> >
> > They remain God's concern and no concern of y/ours (unless we are called to carry the Word to them).
> >
> > > What about people in countries like Saudi Arabia where
> > > people risk their life if they abandon their islamic belief?
> > >
> >
> > They remain God's concern and no concern of y/ours (unless we are called to carry the Word to them).
> >
> > >
> > > What about people that were killed in the name of Christ?
> >
> > They were God's concern and was no concern of y/ours (unless we were called to carry the Word to them).
> >
> > > Are you
> > > suggesting that the Christian conquerers of South and Middle America who
> > > frequently burned native Indians who would not accept Christian beliefs
> > > are now in heaven (because they accepted Christ as their Lord and
> > > Savior), while their victims are now in hell (because they didn't do
> > > so)?
> > >
> >
> > They were God's concern and was no concern of y/ours (unless we were called to carry the Word to them).
>
> Again, I make them my concern.
That would again be your choice. But know this simple truth:
Anyone who would choose to "save" another who is drowning...
...would be wise to make sure s/he her/himself is already safe from drowning.
> For most of the history of the last 2000
> years Christians have been responsible for a large part (probably the
> majority) of atrocities in our world.
I would assert that "Christians" who have done evil (God to judge) have not truly accepted Christ as their
Lord and Savior.
> This does not make the Christian
> beliefs and their alleged moral standards very credible.
>
Christian beliefs and standards come from Christ. That folks fall short of Christ's teachings is a testament
to His perfection.
>
> Thorsten
>
Truly, I appreciate this civil discussion we are having.
It remains my hope that I am helping you understand what it means to be Christian.
Humbly,
Andrew
--
Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
Board-Certified Cardiologist
http://www.heartmdphd.com/
Steve
(in message <400F1984...@heartmdphd.com>):
> How are the folks who have no religion (ie Bob Pastorio and Steve-nospam)
> behaving here?
Pretty good, I'd say :-) At least we don't make up bald-faced lies
about other people's lack of religion like you do, Pastor Chung.
--
Steve
Weeding the Lord's Vineyards Since 2003
Ear Rings
<plonk> <plonk> <plonk> ooops, got that inmate Mu too.
"Steve" <st...@nochung.org> wrote in message
news:0001HW.BC3487B3...@library.airnews.net...
wholey_smoke
"> > > >snip>
> > >
> > > All that is evil and unjust in this world are the works of Satan.
> >
> > This seems to be erroneous, unless you want to suggest that the churches
> > have been the work of Satan for most of our history
>
> God will judge.
>
> > (inquisition,
> > crusades etc.)
>
> Again, God will judge.
>
> > and that the Bibel, too, is at least in part the work of
> > Satan (for example 2. Samuel 8,2 - Numeri 31 - Deuteronium 2,31).
What, devil got your tongue Andrew or is it that you know Steve is
right.
> >
>
> The reporting of history is not by itself evil or unjust. Nor are the
deaths of those whom God has
> judged to be evil.
>
> >
> > > Open your eyes and look around you, Thorsten.
Words of wisdom from the ole blind one himself.
My eyes are not closed.
>
> Then look around.
>
> > But what I see suggests that religion is part of
> > the problem, rather than part of the solution.
> >
>
> How are the folks who have no religion (ie Bob Pastorio and Steve-nospam)
behaving here?
Hey, you forgot me Andrew, then again s'pose I could be Bob or Steve or
better still, I could be YOU.
>
> >
> > > >snip religious dribble.
>
Thorsten Schier
"Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" schrieb:
>
> Thorsten Schier wrote:
>
> > "Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" schrieb:
> > >
> > > Thorsten Schier wrote:
> > >
> > > > Carol T schrieb:
> > > > >
> > > > > Thorsten Schier <Moo...@firemail.de> wrote in message news:<400C6D3...@firemail.de>...
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > >>>>>>>> Please tell me: What could possibly hinder God from giving
> > > > > salvation to everyone after their death, regardless of whether they
> > > > > worshipped him
> > > > > > prior to their death or not?<<<<<<<<<<<
> > > > >
> > > > > Here is why......God will be in Heaven where men will not be to
> > > > > receive salvation from Him. They will have allowed their children of
> > > > > His earth to know only the devil and his ways. If the devil rules
> > > > > their world they will have him in their death, for not one child will
> > > > > pray for the Holy Spirit to fall on another's soul.
> > > >
> > > > Now this is a bit strange. Why would a person not believing in God "know
> > > > only the devil and his ways"?
> > >
> > > Satan is also known as the "Prince of the world." The world we live in as mortals is Satan's
> > > dominion.
> > >
> > > > Most people who don't believe in God,
> > > > won't believe in devil or satan either.
> > >
> > > Satan owns non-believers.
> >
> > So you suggest that he is more tolerant than God?
> >
>
> I would suggest that Satan's standards are lower... much lower.
Sounds like God's love is not unconditional.
> >
> > > > The devil only makes sense when
> > > > there also is a god. So what you wrote does not make any sense to me.
> > > >
> > >
> > > All that is evil and unjust in this world are the works of Satan.
> >
> > This seems to be erroneous, unless you want to suggest that the churches
> > have been the work of Satan for most of our history
>
> God will judge.
You don't have an opinion on this matter?
> > (inquisition,
> > crusades etc.)
>
> Again, God will judge.
>
> > and that the Bibel, too, is at least in part the work of
> > Satan (for example 2. Samuel 8,2 - Numeri 31 - Deuteronium 2,31).
> >
>
> The reporting of history is not by itself evil or unjust. Nor are the deaths of those whom God has
> judged to be evil.
>
> >
> > > Open your eyes and look around you, Thorsten.
> >
> > My eyes are not closed.
>
> Then look around.
>
> > But what I see suggests that religion is part of
> > the problem, rather than part of the solution.
> >
>
> How are the folks who have no religion (ie Bob Pastorio and Steve-nospam) behaving here?
You want leave the judgement of the crimes commited by the churches to
God, but are always quick to point out misbehavior of those whom you see
as not being Christian.
Btw., I vaguely remember that Bob Pastorio mentioned once or twice that
he _is_ a Christian, that he even considered joining the clergy.
> >
> > > >
> > > > Thorsten
> > > >
> > >
> > > You remain in my prayers, Thorsten.
> > >
> > > Please read the Holy Bible starting with the Gospel according to John.
> > >
> >
> > Seems to make more sense starting at the beginning.
> >
>
> The Gospel according to John does start at the beginning.
But it is not at the beginning of the Bible.
Thorsten Schier
Not a moral standard on our part, but on God's.
> >
> > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Please tell me: What could possibly hinder God from giving salvation to
> > > > > > everyone after their death, regardless of whether they worshipped him
> > > > > > prior to their death or not?
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > For one thing, it would make His sacrifice (the torture and crucifixion of His Son, Jesus Christ)
> > > > > meaningless.
> > > >
> > > > Why would it make his sacrifice meaningless if he allows people to
> > > > accept it after their death?
> > >
> > > After their death such "acceptance" would no longer be an act of free will. After death, everyone will
> > > *know* that Christ is the Messiah, the Annointed one, the Savior, and the Divine Son of God even if
> > > they don't like it.
> >
> > And that is exactly the point. I would be nothing less than fair for the
> > people to know all the facts before making a decision.
> >
>
> You now know all the facts.
Er, no. For all I know, the God as described in the Bible is full of
contradictions, the behavior of his followers and his own behavior as
described in the Bible don't match the moral standard Christians
allegedly follow and there is not a shred of evidence that this God
might really exist.
> >
> > However, according to your belief, God expects us to believe in him as a
> > good and loving entity while his followers on earth are often enough
> > doers of evil and apologists of evil.
> >
>
> Those who truly have Christ in their hearts will not be doers of evil.
How come that according to this theory hardly any pope in all the
history seemed to have Christ in their heart?
> >
> > > For it is written in the Holy Bible in 2nd Philippians:
> > >
> > > 9Therefore God exalted him to the highest place
> > > and gave him the name that is above every name,
> > > 10that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
> > > in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
> > > 11and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord,
> > > to the glory of God the Father.
> > >
> > > > I see no reason for this.
> > > >
> > >
> > > But you *will*.
> >
> > I think not.
> >
>
> That would be your choice.
That's not a choice, but a prediction.
> >
> > > >
> > > > And here's another consideration:
> > > >
> > > > You and I, we had or still have the choice, whether we want to believe
> > > > in God or not, if you want to put it that they (I wouldn't really call
> > > > it a choice, just as it is not really a choice of mine that I think that
> > > > the earth is a globe and not flat).
> > >
> > > (Your knowledge that the earth is more spheroid than pancake is analogous to the knowledge you gain of
> > > God when you die. You are correct that this is not a choice. Your lack of knowledge about exactly how
> > > the universe was before the "big bang" would more closely approximate your current state of "choice")
> > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > But what about people in other cultures?
> > >
> > > They remain God's concern and no concern of y/ours (unless we are called to carry the Word to them).
> >
> > But I make them my concern.
> >
>
> That would be your choice.
The choice of a compassing human.
But if Christians on average don't behave any better than atheists, this
might be regarded as evidence that either few Christian really have
accepted Christ as their Lord and Savior or else that your theory that
those who can't do evil does not seem to be true.
> >
> > Thorsten
> >
>
> Truly, I appreciate this civil discussion we are having.
Being civil to each other is a common courtesy, even among atheists.
> It remains my hope that I am helping you understand what it means to be Christian.
You have certainly deepend my experience with Christians. In my country
few Christians, if any, still believe in Satan, or at least they don't
admit to it and they don't usually diagnose other people as being
posessed by Satan.
Thorsten Schier
"Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" schrieb:
>
[...]
> > and that the Bibel, too, is at least in part the work of
> > Satan (for example 2. Samuel 8,2 - Numeri 31 - Deuteronium 2,31).
> >
Forgot to comment on this one:
> The reporting of history is not by itself evil or unjust.
Look at who commited the crimes in question: David, Joshua, Moses, all
people held in high esteem in Christianity.
Some of the crimes were even commanded by God!
> Nor are the deaths of those whom God has
> judged to be evil.
Even if they are children?
Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
Satan having low standards speaks nothing of God's love.
> > > > > The devil only makes sense when
> > > > > there also is a god. So what you wrote does not make any sense to me.
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > All that is evil and unjust in this world are the works of Satan.
> > >
> > > This seems to be erroneous, unless you want to suggest that the churches
> > > have been the work of Satan for most of our history
> >
> > God will judge.
>
> You don't have an opinion on this matter?
I choose not to judge others.
> > > (inquisition,
> > > crusades etc.)
> >
> > Again, God will judge.
> >
> > > and that the Bibel, too, is at least in part the work of
> > > Satan (for example 2. Samuel 8,2 - Numeri 31 - Deuteronium 2,31).
> > >
> >
> > The reporting of history is not by itself evil or unjust. Nor are the deaths of those whom God has
> > judged to be evil.
> >
> > >
> > > > Open your eyes and look around you, Thorsten.
> > >
> > > My eyes are not closed.
> >
> > Then look around.
> >
> > > But what I see suggests that religion is part of
> > > the problem, rather than part of the solution.
> > >
> >
> > How are the folks who have no religion (ie Bob Pastorio and Steve-nospam) behaving here?
>
> You want leave the judgement of the crimes commited by the churches to
> God,
No, I just choose not to judge.
> but are always quick to point out misbehavior of those whom you see
> as not being Christian.
No. I asked you a question about how you would judge those like
yourself since you have chosen to judge others who are unlike you.
> Btw., I vaguely remember that Bob Pastorio mentioned once or twice that
> he _is_ a Christian, that he even considered joining the clergy.
I do not have a recollection of the former though I do have of the
latter.
Please let me know when you come across neighbor Pastorio stating he
has accepted Christ as his personal Lord and Savior so that I can
rejoice.
> > > > > Thorsten
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > You remain in my prayers, Thorsten.
> > > >
> > > > Please read the Holy Bible starting with the Gospel according to John.
> > > >
> > >
> > > Seems to make more sense starting at the beginning.
> > >
> >
> > The Gospel according to John does start at the beginning.
>
> But it is not at the beginning of the Bible.
But it does start with the beginning *before* God created anything:
1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the
Word was
God. 2He was with God in the beginning. 3Through him all things were
made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4In him was
life, and that life was the light of men. 5The light shines in the
darkness, but the darkness has not understood it.
Humbly,
Andrew
--
Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
Board-Certified Cardiologist
http://www.heartmdphd.com
Bob
> Thorsten Schier <Moo...@firemail.de> wrote in message news:<40106287...@firemail.de>...
>>Btw., I vaguely remember that Bob Pastorio mentioned once or twice that
>>he _is_ a Christian, that he even considered joining the clergy.
>
> I do not have a recollection of the former though I do have of the
> latter.
>
> Please let me know when you come across neighbor Pastorio stating he
> has accepted Christ as his personal Lord and Savior so that I can
> rejoice.
Just in case the marginally literate Chung is too burdened with his
important role in the Proselytizing Wackos, here's a quote from a post
of mine of 1/19 to his sock "John":
"They *believed* he was as you and all of us who are Christians do. It
is not a provable fact. They were convinced as we are, but we can't
prove it - and don't need to - to observe Jesus' teachings. That's
what faith is about."
<http://tinyurl.com/235a4>
Poor wrong-headed, superficial Chung.
Bob
Steve
(in message <1011u94...@corp.supernews.com>):
Yes, but you didn't recite Chung's formulaic "Jesus Pledge of
Allegiance", so by definition you are not a Christian.
Truth is simple :-)
Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
You are in a pickle, here, Thorsten.
It would seem that you are unable to love God without God loving you unconditionally.
And God feels the same way toward you.
Guess who is greater?
And, guess who has the greater need?
Humbly,
Andrew
--
Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
Board-Certified Cardiologist
http://www.heartmdphd.com/