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Predicative plural in Germanic vs. Romance languages

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Ruud Harmsen

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Dec 23, 2013, 4:50:33 PM12/23/13
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I'm wondering about whether an adjective in a
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Predicative_expression should be in the plural
if the subject is. This seems to be different in various language
families:

Dutch/German:
Dat zijn gemakkelijke talen. Die talen zijn gemakkelijk (not:
*gemakkelijke)
Das sind leichte Sprachen. Diese Sprachen sind leicht (not: *leichte)

Portuguese:
S�o l�nguas f�ceis. Essas l�nguas s�o f�ceis (not: *f�cil).

I think it works like this in French too. So Romance languages put the
predicative adjective in the plural, Germanic languages don't?
Germanic predicative adjectives are always uninflected? Even in
Icelandic?

If so, is Esperanto a Romance language? And Interlingua? I consulted
online grammars for both, but didn't find a definite answer yet.

(Trigger for the question: in 1988, I wrote
"Bazigante sur la naturaj leg^oj de Dio, multtendencaj ig^adoj estas
ebla."
I now wonder: should it have been 'eblaj' because "ig^adoj" is a
plural? No clear answer here:
http://bertilow.com/pmeg/gramatiko/frazpartoj/a-vortaj_frazpartoj.html)

--
Ruud Harmsen, http://rudhar.com

Ruud Harmsen

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Dec 23, 2013, 4:59:05 PM12/23/13
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Mon, 23 Dec 2013 22:50:33 +0100: Ruud Harmsen <r...@rudhar.com>
schreef/wrote:
>Germanic predicative adjectives are always uninflected? Even in
>Icelandic?

And Gothic, for that matter? I suppose these languages have/had 6
possibilities in the nominative: masc/fem/neuter and singular/plural?

wugi

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Dec 23, 2013, 5:06:07 PM12/23/13
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Ruud Harmsen schreef op 23/12/2013 22:50:
> I'm wondering about whether an adjective in a
> en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Predicative_expression should be in the plural
> if the subject is. This seems to be different in various language
> families:
>
> Dutch/German:
> Dat zijn gemakkelijke talen. Die talen zijn gemakkelijk (not:
> *gemakkelijke)
> Das sind leichte Sprachen. Diese Sprachen sind leicht (not: *leichte)
>
> Portuguese:
> S�o l�nguas f�ceis. Essas l�nguas s�o f�ceis (not: *f�cil).
>
> I think it works like this in French too. So Romance languages put the
> predicative adjective in the plural, Germanic languages don't?
> Germanic predicative adjectives are always uninflected? Even in
> Icelandic?

Meseems Scandinavian has at least neuter flexion in predicatives:
det �r viktigt.
About plurals, less sure... Aha, Google translates to this:
de �r stora.

guido google:wugi

Ruud Harmsen

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Dec 23, 2013, 5:20:21 PM12/23/13
to
Mon, 23 Dec 2013 22:50:33 +0100: Ruud Harmsen <r...@rudhar.com>
schreef/wrote:
>If so, is Esperanto a Romance language? And Interlingua? I consulted
>online grammars for both, but didn't find a definite answer yet.

http://translate.google.com/#auto/eo/The%20girls%20are%20beautiful.
The girls are beautiful. => La knabinoj estas belaj.
Correct?

Ruud Harmsen

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Dec 23, 2013, 5:27:53 PM12/23/13
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Mon, 23 Dec 2013 23:20:21 +0100: Ruud Harmsen <r...@rudhar.com>
schreef/wrote:
>http://translate.google.com/#auto/eo/The%20girls%20are%20beautiful.
>The girls are beautiful. => La knabinoj estas belaj.

By the way, what an utterly unromantic word, knabino. Virino, woman,
is slightly better.

Joe Fineman

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Dec 23, 2013, 5:32:19 PM12/23/13
to
Ruud Harmsen <r...@rudhar.com> writes:

> I'm wondering about whether an adjective in a
> en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Predicative_expression should be in the plural
> if the subject is. This seems to be different in various language
> families:
>
> Dutch/German:
> Dat zijn gemakkelijke talen. Die talen zijn gemakkelijk (not:
> *gemakkelijke)
> Das sind leichte Sprachen. Diese Sprachen sind leicht (not: *leichte)
>
> Portuguese:
> São línguas fáceis. Essas línguas são fáceis (not: *fácil).
>
> I think it works like this in French too. So Romance languages put the
> predicative adjective in the plural, Germanic languages don't?
> Germanic predicative adjectives are always uninflected? Even in
> Icelandic?

If you tire of fussing with western Europe, you can luxuriate in
Russian, in which many adjectives have a distinct form for the
predicate, and all of them inflect for gender (in singular only) and
number.
--
--- Joe Fineman jo...@verizon.net

||: The things you think when you're not thinking! :||

wugi

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Dec 23, 2013, 5:42:32 PM12/23/13
to
Joe Fineman schreef op 23/12/2013 23:32:
> Ruud Harmsen <r...@rudhar.com> writes:
>
>> I'm wondering about whether an adjective in a
>> en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Predicative_expression should be in the plural
>> if the subject is. This seems to be different in various language
>> families:
>>
>> Dutch/German:
>> Dat zijn gemakkelijke talen. Die talen zijn gemakkelijk (not:
>> *gemakkelijke)
>> Das sind leichte Sprachen. Diese Sprachen sind leicht (not: *leichte)
>>
>> Portuguese:
>> S�o l�nguas f�ceis. Essas l�nguas s�o f�ceis (not: *f�cil).
>>
>> I think it works like this in French too. So Romance languages put the
>> predicative adjective in the plural, Germanic languages don't?
>> Germanic predicative adjectives are always uninflected? Even in
>> Icelandic?
>
> If you tire of fussing with western Europe, you can luxuriate in
> Russian, in which many adjectives have a distinct form for the
> predicate, and all of them inflect for gender (in singular only) and
> number.

IIRC Amharic doesn't flex predicates. Possibly because it has a
full-fledged and -used present tense for "to be", even with f.-m.
distinction in 2nd and 3d person. Contrary to what was said of Semitic
langs in the Hebrew/Arabic "to be" thread.

guido google:wugi

Pierre Jelenc

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Dec 23, 2013, 6:12:15 PM12/23/13
to
In article <l9ac4e$odg$1...@speranza.aioe.org>, wugi <br...@brol.be> wrote:
>
>Meseems Scandinavian has at least neuter flexion in predicatives:
>det är viktigt.
>About plurals, less sure... Aha, Google translates to this:
>de är stora.

Indeed. Also, Swedish (and probably the other Scandinavian languages)
requires agreement if the adjective is a predicative of (for? to?) the
object:

They made us happy => de gjorde oss glada (not glad)
He painted the table green => han målade bordet grönt (not grön)

Pierre
--
Pierre Jelenc
The Gigometer www.gigometer.com
The NYC Beer Guide www.nycbeer.org

pauljk

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Dec 23, 2013, 11:19:08 PM12/23/13
to

"Joe Fineman" <jo...@verizon.net> wrote in message news:84wqivb...@verizon.net...
Russian is a good example of an inflected language, but it is not as
heavily inflected as many other Slavic languages.

:-)
One can luxuriate even more in, for example, some west or south
Slavic ones, in which almost all adjectives inflect for case and
gender (both singular and plural), often for animity and/or
human/non-human, and number (sometimes dual, as well as singular
and plural).

pjk


Ruud Harmsen

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Dec 24, 2013, 3:12:02 AM12/24/13
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Mon, 23 Dec 2013 22:50:33 +0100: Ruud Harmsen <r...@rudhar.com>
schreef/wrote:

>I'm wondering about whether an adjective in a
>en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Predicative_expression should be in the plural
>if the subject is.

>If so, is Esperanto a Romance language? And Interlingua? I consulted
>online grammars for both, but didn't find a definite answer yet.

Interlingua works the same as Dutch in this respect! Source:
http://www.interlingua.com/archivos/Gramatica%20Essencial%20de%20Interlingua%20em%20Portugues.pdf
from which I quote:
==
Em Interlingua, apenas os substantivos v�o para o plural. Assim,
dizemos Mi can es nigre (Meu cachorro � preto) no singular e Mi canes
es nigre (Meus cachorros s�o pretos) no plural. As palavras que
acompanham o substantivo (adjetivos, artigos, possessivos, indefinidos
etc.) n�o se pluralizam.
==

In Dutch this would be:
Mijn hond is zwart
Mijn honden zijn zwart (not: *zwarte)

and also:
==
� permitido colocar uma palavra adjetiva no plural quando ela vem
desacompanhada de substantivo: Io ganiava tres camisas, un blanc e duo
verdes (Eu ganhei tr�s camisas, uma branca e duas verdes); Illa ha
plure libros, alcun noves e altere veteres (Ela tem v�rios livros,
alguns novos e outros velhos).
==

This too is as in Dutch:
Ik won drie overhemden, een witte (not: *wit) en twee groene (not:
*groen).
Ze heeft allerlei boeken, enkele nieuwe en ook een paar oude.

Ruud Harmsen

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Dec 24, 2013, 1:03:07 PM12/24/13
to
Mon, 23 Dec 2013 22:50:33 +0100: Ruud Harmsen <r...@rudhar.com>
schreef/wrote:
>Portuguese:
>S�o l�nguas f�ceis. Essas l�nguas s�o f�ceis (not: *f�cil).
>
>I think it works like this in French too. So Romance languages put the
>predicative adjective in the plural, Germanic languages don't?
>Germanic predicative adjectives are always uninflected? Even in
>Icelandic?
>
>If so, is Esperanto a Romance language?

It is:
http://bertilow.com/pmeg/gramatiko/a-vortoj/uzo.html

So Esperanto requires agreement of number. Always.

Ruud Harmsen

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Jan 22, 2014, 8:00:16 AM1/22/14
to
Mon, 23 Dec 2013 22:50:33 +0100: Ruud Harmsen <r...@rudhar.com>
schreef/wrote:

>I'm wondering about whether an adjective in a
>en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Predicative_expression should be in the plural
>if the subject is.

[...]

>(Trigger for the question: in 1988, I wrote
>"Bazigante sur la naturaj leg^oj de Dio, multtendencaj ig^adoj estas
>ebla."
>I now wonder: should it have been 'eblaj' because "ig^adoj" is a
>plural? [...]

Clear now:
http://rudhar.com/writings/vzajku/eo/langnote.htm#Note-Eblaj
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