Kun-yomi sources for KANJIDIC2 entry

[Mike Lakunin]

Hello!

Recently i encountered few entries in a dictionary ( firstly in jisho.org, and then i rechecked it in kanjidic2 dictionary http://www.csse.monash.edu.au/~jwb/kanjidic2/index.html), that have kun-yomi that, as my japanese teacher says, are wrong as they are not in Nelson.

for example:
「二」　ふたた・ぶ
「簡」　えら・ぶ

I'm kind of confused by that. Is there any way to find out the source of the particular kun-yomi that kanjidic2 refers to?

Or at least, may be someone could help me to prove that 「二」 has ふたた・ぶ as a reading?
It was a bet that i must not loose :P

Thanks in advance.

[Jim Breen]

On Wednesday, 28 November 2012 07:15:21 UTC+11, Mike Lakunin wrote:

> Recently i encountered few entries in a dictionary

> (firstly in jisho.org, and then i rechecked it in

> kanjidic2 dictionary http://www.csse.monash.edu.au/~jwb/kanjidic2/index.html),
> that have kun-yomi that, as my japanese teacher says, are
> wrong as they are not in Nelson.

I hope your Japanese teacher is using a better source
than Nelson. It was a great kanji dictionary in its day,
but hardly THE authority when it comes to things like
readings.

> for example:
>
> 「二」　ふたた・ぶ
>
> 「簡」　えら・ぶ
>
> I'm kind of confused by that. Is there any way to
> find out the source of the particular kun-yomi that
> kanjidic2 refers to?

Where do you see "ふたた・ぶ" as a reading of "二"?

えら・ぶ as a reading of 簡 is in several sources,
including 広辞苑.

> Or at least, may be someone could help me to prove
> that 「二」 has ふたた・ぶ as a reading?

KANJIDIC2 has ふたた・び as a reading of 二. I don't
recall the source - it may have been UniHan
http://www.unicode.org/cgi-bin/GetUnihanData.pl?codepoint=%E4%BA%8C
I can't find it anywhere else, and I suspect it is an
error. I'm removing it. (I've grown cautious in my
old age...)

> It was a bet that i must not loose :P

You bet on ふたた・ぶ? えら・ぶ for 簡 was a safer
bet.

Jim

[Mike Lakunin]

Thanks a lot!
Well, at least i have unihan as a source (for ふたた・び）. Will show it to my teacher tomorrow in class. Thanks!

[Andreas Rusterholz]

2012年11月28日水曜日 7時16分13秒 UTC+9 Jim Breen:

> On Wednesday, 28 November 2012 07:15:21 UTC+11, Mike Lakunin wrote: > Recently i encountered few entries in a dictionary > (firstly in jisho.org, and then i rechecked it in > kanjidic2 dictionary http://www.csse.monash.edu.au/~jwb/kanjidic2/index.html), > that have kun-yomi that, as my japanese teacher says, are > wrong as they are not in Nelson. I hope your Japanese teacher is using a better source than Nelson. It was a great kanji dictionary in its day, but hardly THE authority when it comes to things like readings. > for example: > > 「二」　ふたた・ぶ > > 「簡」　えら・ぶ > > I'm kind of confused by that. Is there any way to > find out the source of the particular kun-yomi that > kanjidic2 refers to? Where do you see "ふたた・ぶ" as a reading of "二"? えら・ぶ as a reading of 簡 is in several sources, including 広辞苑. > Or at least, may be someone could help me to prove > that 「二」 has ふたた・ぶ as a reading? KANJIDIC2 has ふたた・び as a reading of 二. I don't recall the source - it may have been UniHan http://www.unicode.org/cgi-bin/GetUnihanData.pl?codepoint=%E4%BA%8C I can't find it anywhere else, and I suspect it is an error. I'm removing it. (I've grown cautious in my old age...) > It was a bet that i must not loose :P You bet on ふたた・ぶ? えら・ぶ for 簡 was a safer bet. Jim

In 白川静『字通』平凡社 you find the following readings:

簡　カン；　たけふだ、ふみ、はぶく、おおどか、えらぶ

二　ニ、ジ；　つたつ、ふたたび

Therefore I don't think that you should remove it.

ご参考まで。

Andreas Rusterholz

[Andreas Rusterholz]

二　ニ、ジ；　つたつ、ふたたび

should read

二　ニ、ジ；　ふたつ、ふたたび

Andreas Rusterholz

[Jim Breen]

On Wednesday, 28 November 2012 11:19:30 UTC+11, Andreas Rusterholz wrote:

> In 白川静『字通』平凡社 you find the following readings:
>
> 簡　カン；　たけふだ、ふみ、はぶく、おおどか、えらぶ
> 二　ニ、ジ；　つたつ、ふたたび
>
> Therefore I don't think that you should remove it.

That's quite a collection. OK, I'll put ふたたび back,
but without the 送り仮名. I can't find any good support
for 二び.

Jim

[Mike Lakunin]

But could it be that 「ふたたび」＝二たび＝(?)二度. And it is not ふたた・び、　but ふた・たび？

Mike

[Andreas Rusterholz]

2012年11月28日水曜日 18時16分55秒 UTC+9 Mike Lakunin:

> >
> But could it be that 「ふたたび」＝二たび＝(?)二度. And it is not ふたた・び、　but ふた・たび？
>
> Mike

In an old document from 1272 (開目抄　上　　文永九年（１２７２年）二月　聖寿五十一歳御著作; see: http://homepage2.nifty.com/gosyo/kaimokusyo-g1.htm) you find:

原文：　仏法二び群類をすくう。 (ふたた・び)
In the modern translation 再び is used.

On the other hand, 漢和中辞典（角川）suggests ふた・たび.

Both versions exist and none is wrong.

Andreas Rusterholz

[Tad Perry]

We can always count on you to track down the difficult to find.

tvp

[mirror]

On Tue, 27 Nov 2012 14:16:13 -0800 (PST), Jim Breen
<jimb...@gmail.com> wrote:
>I hope your Japanese teacher is using a better source
>than Nelson. It was a great kanji dictionary in its day,
>but hardly THE authority when it comes to things like
>readings.

Jim, what paper kanji dictionary are you using?


Paul

[Jim Breen]

I mainly use electronic 漢和字典 these days: 広辞苑, 大辞林,
大辞泉, etc. On paper I have a heap of them, including the
13-volume Morohashi. Which I use depends on what I am looking
up. I tend only to use the "English" ones (Nelson new & old,
Halpern, Spahn & Hadamitzky, etc.) when I am looking at the
"meanings" of kanji in English.

The UniHan file is very useful, but the readings are a bit
rubbery and the meanings are rather Chinesey.

HTH

Jim

[Bart Mathias]

I wonder how many would automatically read 仏法二群類をすくう correctly?

Maybe people steeped in kanbun would get along without the び; Mathews' does list the meaning ふたたび for 二. I was going to check whether Kanjidic consistently has ひとたび for 一, みたび for 三, いつたび for 五, やたび for 八, etc., but I seem to have forgotten how to look things up in it.
--
Bart Mathias <mat...@hawaii.edu>