Wavefront Web Pages Updated with Review of AP Mak
Fred & Julie Burger
the time to write up and send in a truly superb review of the
Astro-Physics prototype Maksutov-Cassegrain.
I have added Thomas Back's outstanding review along with a few
other items. Massive thanks to everyone who has been so kind as to
send me information and pictures to post and share with everyone,
please keep it coming, thanks!
Best Wishes,
Julie :-)
f...@sos.net
Wavefront Web Pages - A web site for Maksutov users
http://www.sos.net/~fjb/Q1.htm
TMBack
>In the review Thomas says "The dream of an affordable
>(relative to Questar), large aperture Mak-Cassegrain,
>with the highest levels of performance, without all the
>pitfalls of previous Mak-Cassegrains, makes this
>telescope irresistible." This leads one to conclude that
>an asking price has been established for the scope. If
>so what is the price?
Brian,
No price has been set, however it would be safe to
say that the price should be somewhere around 1/2
the cost of a new Questar 7. That's not a price quote,
just a general price estimate. You, I, and everyone
else will just have to wait to find out the actual price.
I would like to add something to my review. It has
come to my attention that someone has disputed some
of what I wrote, in particular, the statement about coma
correction in spherical Mak-Cassegrains. I was speaking
of the classic Mak-Cass: The Gregory spot Mak. Now an
optical designer can always add additional degrees of
freedom in any design, and control coma. And I have
designs with conics, higher order aspherics, R2 and R4
with different radii, and secondary spacings that do just
that. But they all come with a price of greater complexity
and cost. The key is to find a design that has greater
aberration control than the Gregory Mak, but is a
makeable production product. Both Roland and Valery
D. of ARIES have designed and manufactured Mak-
Cassegrains that meet this goal.
Thomas Back
AndersonRM
> This leads one to conclude that an asking
>price has been established for the scope. If so what is the price?
>
>
You mean it wasn't in the ad?
-Rich
"Clinton's behaviour or politics shouldn't suprise
anyone familiar with Southern-American
"backwater" politics." Clinton-The "Huey Long"
of the Whitehouse.
WHALEN44
What ad? You mean the review by Thomas? I would not call that a ad by any
means. When someone reviews a Meade and gives it a great review, do you call
that a ad? I think your anti AP bias is showing again. And if you are refering
to some actual advertisement in a magazine etc. which one?
Richard Whalen
whal...@aol.com
Time spent observing the heavens is not deducted from your lifespan
Fred & Julie Burger
would provide information just as soon as he had something definite.
Please forgive my positive attitude. What's with you guys, you throw a
fit if someone says something negative and then throw twice the fit
when they post something positive. You can really tell when someone is
addicted to flaming when they have to put someone down for saying
something nice. :-)
AndersonRM
In article <19981028120052...@ng100.aol.com>, whal...@aol.com
(WHALEN44) writes:
>What ad? You mean the review by Thomas? I would not call that a ad by any
>means. When someone reviews a Meade and gives it a great review, do you call
>that a ad?
No, i'm just joking. But, isn't it funny how an endorsement can be construed
as "advertising" when there is no tangible reason to believe that? However,
giving a known telescope expert first look at a new design is hardly likely
to have been done just for fun on Roland's part. If Mr. Bach comes out and
basically says the scope is top-notch, you can bet his word alone is going
to sell alot of those Maks.
samw...@my-dejanews.com
ander...@aol.com (AndersonRM) wrote:
> If Mr. Bach comes out and
> basically says the scope is top-notch, you can bet his word alone is going
> to sell alot of those Maks.
Johann Sebastian?? Was he into astronomy too? Don't think he had the chance
to play with one of Roland's scope before passing.
Stew
> -Rich
> "Clinton's behaviour or politics shouldn't suprise
> anyone familiar with Southern-American
> "backwater" politics." Clinton-The "Huey Long"
> of the Whitehouse.
>
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
WHALEN44
as "advertising" when there is no tangible reason to believe that?>>
Only by you (joking)
However, giving a known telescope expert first look at a new design is hardly
likely to have been done just for fun on Roland's part.>>
I believe Thomas Back evaluated it at astrofest along with several dozen
otheres who had a chance to view through it. I could be wrong about the when
part, though I heard it was there. I think you must watch X-files to much,
always trying to find hidden agendas & motives.
<< If Mr. Bach comes out and basically says the scope is top-notch, you can
bet his word alone is going to sell alot of those Maks. >>>-Rich>>
And by the same token, what if he came out and found them lacking in some way?
Showing your prototype to several well know and knowledgable observers can be a
double edge sword. Roland obviously has enough confidence in his product to do
this and get feedback from others before going into full scale production.
Would'nt it be nice if Meade and Celestron did this instead of dumping poorly
designed scopes on the market, and only fixing them after a year or two?
And your right, Mr. Backs word and opinion does carry some weight, though I
don't think Roland "needs" it to sell his products. I for one asked Roland to
put me on the list for one (as soon as there is a list) before the review came
out.
Brian Murphy
People on this newsgroup often venture an opinion as to the quality of an
equipment review. Most of the equipment reviews published in Sky &
Telescope and Astronomy garner a few opines here on SAA as to their
merit. My comments were nothing more or less. I don't consider that a
"flame" at all.
Brian
Jeff Morgan
(WHALEN44) wrote:
>
> I believe Thomas Back evaluated it at astrofest along with several dozen
> otheres who had a chance to view through it. I could be wrong about the when
> part, though I heard it was there. I think you must watch X-files to much,
> always trying to find hidden agendas & motives.
>
Richard,
The AP Mak-Newt (or an AP Mak-Newt) was at Astrofest. I'm sure a hundred
people looked thru it, including myself.
Hard to do critical comparisons when the lines are long, but my looks at
M13 and Jupiter were very impressive. The Mak was clearly better on M13,
and I thought every bit as good as the refractors on Jupiter. (There were
s.a.a. posts from half a dozen others at Astrofest who disagreed with me
on the planetary performance.)
--
Jeff Morgan
email: substitute mindspring for nospam
WHALEN44
I think we are talking about a Maksutov Cassegrain. Did you see one their?
AndersonRM
>And by the same token, what if he came out and found them lacking in some
>way? Showing your prototype to several well know and knowledgable observers
>can be a double edge sword. Roland obviously has enough confidence in his
>product to do this and get feedback from others before going into full scale
>production.
A "Double edged sword" when he has enough confidence to be sure the
review will be positive? I think that's a contradiction or at most, a remote
possibility.
>Would'nt it be nice if Meade and Celestron did this instead of dumping poorly
>designed scopes on the market, and only fixing them after a year or two?
You mean instead of selling 8 inch SCT's for $999 to $2700, they should
up the price to $8000 in order to be sure noted telescope reviewers
give good reviews? That would certainly cut alot of people off from a
decent (if not the highest quality) supply of telescopes, wouldn't it? I'd
venture that despite optical excellence at the $8000 price point, the 8 inch
SCT would cease to be the most bought amateur telescope in the world.
-Rich
Since when did "no problem"
replace "you're welcome" in
restaurants?
AndersonRM
In article <jeffmorgan-29...@207.205.143.124>, jeffm...@nospam.com
(Jeff Morgan) writes:
> (There were
>s.a.a. posts from half a dozen others at Astrofest who disagreed with me
>on the planetary performance.)
And this really amazes me. Whenever i've observed with people,
their has always been unanimity on which scope performed
the best on planets. There is never any question as most people
have decent eyesight or eyesight made decent by correction.
Why would there be any question as to which scope (refractor
or mak) performed the best on planets? This is where I see biases
creep in that should not be there.
For instance; Say Roland comes out with his big Mak at $6000 to
$10000 for the OTA. Then, say the Russians start bringing in similar
Maks at $3000 to $5000. I can almost 100% guarantee you that if the
Russian Mak performed as well or better, there would STILL be AP fans
or owners who would steadfastly insist the AP was superior. That is the
type of non-objectivity we can all do without since we might very well
base our next purchases on the words of some of these people.
The situation could well be reversed. All I can say is that if I look through
an AP Mak, TEC Mak, Russian Mak or Meade Mak, the one that produces
the BEST image is the one i'll want and if the others fall short, i'd mention
that they had. Then, i'll BUY the best one I can based on
performance, price and availability to differing extents.
lude...@my-dejanews.com
Hi Rich,
nice report, which I must fully underline. Not the company who make the best
scope or accessories sells the best, the company with the more famous
reputation sells anyway better.
Sample: We can find ultrahigh offers for zeiss ABBE eyepieces, but only
standart offers for higher quality pentax orthos.
Markus
>
> Since when did "no problem"
> replace "you're welcome" in
> restaurants?
>
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
Todd Gross
>The AP Mak-Newt (or an AP Mak-Newt) was at Astrofest. I'm sure a hundred
>people looked thru it, including myself.
>Hard to do critical comparisons when the lines are long, but my looks at
>M13 and Jupiter were very impressive. The Mak was clearly better on M13,
>and I thought every bit as good as the refractors on Jupiter. (There were
>s.a.a. posts from half a dozen others at Astrofest who disagreed with me
>on the planetary performance.)
thanks for the post Jeff
DBogan3220
>And this really amazes me. Whenever i've observed with people,
>their has always been unanimity on which scope performed
>the best on planets. There is never any question as most people
>have decent eyesight or eyesight made decent by correction.
>Why would there be any question as to which scope (refractor
>or mak) performed the best on planets? This is where I see biases
>creep in that should not be there.
>For instance; Say Roland comes out with his big Mak at $6000 to
>$10000 for the OTA. Then, say the Russians start bringing in similar
>Maks at $3000 to $5000. I can almost 100% guarantee you that if the
>Russian Mak performed as well or better, there would STILL be AP fans
>or owners who would steadfastly insist the AP was superior. That is the
>type of non-objectivity we can all do without since we might very well
>base our next purchases on the words of some of these people.
>The situation could well be reversed. All I can say is that if I look
>through
>an AP Mak, TEC Mak, Russian Mak or Meade Mak, the one that produces
>the BEST image is the one i'll want and if the others fall short, i'd mention
>that they had. Then, i'll BUY the best one I can based on
>performance, price and availability to differing extents.
>-Rich
>
So what are you trying to imply Rich that the AP scope is not going to
deliver a decent image just because the Russian scopes are cheaper they have to
be better:-) Oh a BTW how do you know what the price of the proposed AP Maks
are going to be? You of course have been corresponding with Roland on the
matter.
Lets see. . .from what I understand Rolands Maks use a Quartz primary
and the Russian scopes use Sital. Ive been considering a Russian 9 inch Mak so
I've been looking into this, BTW TEC uses Sital as well. From what I understand
about Sital vs Quartz, Quartz would be the better material to use because of
its ability to give up heat better. Since I have not seen Rolands Mak I don't
know if the tube assembly is vented to the outside. The Russiam Maks are sealed
systems and are not vented so you well need to open the back of the scope
tipping the eyepiece end up to the sky and let the warm air in the tube leak
out to help speed the thermal equalization process along. After about an hour
of this you should have a usable scope. I do this right now with my Quantum 6
Mak everytime I take it out, this process takes about forty-five minutes for
my scope, BTW the mirror on my Mak is pyrex. After my Q-6 is thermally
stabilized, the optics perform very well comparable to my AP130 edf and at a
recent Star Party that I attended a Takahashi eight inch Cass and a 6inch F9
planetary Newt both owners admitted that my Quantum six had the advantage at
least for this night :-) This was observing Jupiter and Saturn several weekends
ago. Since I know that Pyex takes longer than Quartz but less time than Sital
to become thermally stable I would say that quartz would be the better choice.
Lets continue. . .
Now from what I have been able to infer from the Newsgroups and Thomas
Backs review of Roland's Mak his scope giving excellent images early on without
having to go through this silly tipping the back end of the scope to let the
warm air out routine as I currenty do with my Mak, hmmmm maybe I should wait
for the the AP Mak to become available. :-)
You know Rich since by reputation alone you are against AP scopes in
general. The AP scopes got to be good :-)
Well I've got to get ready for work now we can continue this latter
Clear Skies
Dwight L Bogan
Glenmore F. Wong
This is where I see biases
> creep in that should not be there.
That is the
> type of non-objectivity we can all do without since we might very well
> base our next purchases on the words of some of these people.
> -Rich
>
This, from the guy with the infamous "Meade testimonial".
glenmore
tri...@my-dejanews.com
Intes/Intes-Micro. All of them have ventillation fans.
--
Jim McSheehy
> DBogan3220 wrote:
> Since I have not seen Rolands Mak I don't
> know if the tube assembly is vented to the outside. The Russiam Maks are sealed
> systems and are not vented so you well need to open the back of the scope
> tipping the eyepiece end up to the sky and let the warm air in the tube leak
> out to help speed the thermal equalization process along. After about an hour
> of this you should have a usable scope.
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
WHALEN44
possibility.>>
If you were there I'm sure you would have slammed his new scope first chance
you got. Remember, Thomas wasn't the only person to look through it. And are
you implying that Thomas would not report what he saw, whether good or bad?
>You mean instead of selling 8 inch SCT's for $999 to $2700, they should up the
price to $8000 in order to be sure noted telescope reviewers give good
reviews?>>
This is getting really stupid Rich, of coarse they can keep the price the same,
as they have done. My beef with Meade is that they often release new scopes or
equipment that still has a lot of bugs to be worked out, and they know it. They
don't care that the poor slob who is buying his first scope (that has been
saving for 5 years to get it) is getting a bad scope, because more often than
not they will not know the difference. Only after being frustrated to no end
and a couple of years of learning will he find out his optics are really bad
etc. and by then it's to late to return the scope.
And what makes you think it would cost $8,000 for Meade or Celestron to produce
a decent SCT? Could it be because for $ 2,700 they can't? Are you saying that
Meades SCT are poor scopes with poor optics? Takahashi produced a 9" SCT
several years ago that was a excellent scope for less than 8 grand. And whats
the difference between that $999 SCT and the $2,700 SCT? If the tube assemblies
are the same (which they claim to be) do you really think it cost them $1,700
more for the better mount or electronics? More like $200. It's a marketing
ripoff. They could easily spend a extra $500 on the upper end scopes to insure
proper mechanics and optical performance, and still sell them for $2,700.
bro...@my-dejanews.com
I am sure Rich "Legend In His Own Mind" Anderson was not referring to his own
biases, just his faulty perception of everyone else's. It's the old "Do as I
say, not as I do".
--
Kevin Brown
Burke, VA
AndersonRM
In article <19981030110856...@ng82.aol.com>, whal...@aol.com
(WHALEN44) writes:
>>A "Double edged sword" when he has enough confidence to be sure the review
>will be positive? I think that's a ontradiction or at most, a remote
>possibility.>>
>
>If you were there I'm sure you would have slammed his new scope first chance
>you got. Remember, Thomas wasn't the only person to look through it. And are
>you implying that Thomas would not report what he saw, whether good or bad?
That's where you are dead wrong. I don't care who makes the scope,
as long as it's demonstrably good. I've already said AP's top of the line
(no longer in production as a regular item) 7 inch was the best
refractor i'd ever seen. My beef is with people who buy and defend AP
because they want to impress their friends and keep up with them in
the amateur astronomy "Joneses" race.
>>You mean instead of selling 8 inch SCT's for $999 to $2700, they should up
>the
>price to $8000 in order to be sure noted telescope reviewers give good
>reviews?>>
>
>This is getting really stupid Rich, of coarse they can keep the price the
>same, as they have done.
You are living in complete dreamland. You might get a top notch SCT
once in awhile at their current price point, but you will not be
guaranteed of it. I've said this before. This is the same as people
who think $1000 6inch Intes Mak OTA's will be a consistently good
as 7 inch Questars. Even with the starvation wages in Russian,
it isn't going to happen.
> Only after being frustrated to no end
>and a couple of years of learning will he find out his optics are really bad
>etc. and by then it's to late to return the scope.
Wasn't I the one who said, "you've got to work to get a top notch SCT
from either Celestron or Meade? What's your point??
Two years to find out optics aren't any good?? Does this person even
CARE whether they are good or not??
>a decent SCT? Could it be because for $ 2,700 they can't? Are you saying that
>Meades SCT are poor scopes with poor optics? Takahashi produced a 9" SCT
>several years ago that was a excellent scope for less than 8 grand. And whats
>the difference between that $999 SCT and the $2,700 SCT? If the tube
>assemblies
>are the same (which they claim to be) do you really think it cost them $1,700
>more for the better mount or electronics? More like $200.
You obviously do not understand the cost of electronics development. But
hey, if you can program a 20,000 gate ASIC, Motorola microprocessors and
about 500 support components to track 64,000 objects, go ahead and beat Meade
at the price game. Good luck! It took Celestron over FIVE YEARS!
Your arguments are completely unrealistic.
-Rich
AndersonRM
>Sample: We can find ultrahigh offers for zeiss ABBE eyepieces, but only
>standart offers for higher quality pentax orthos.
Sad but true.
AndersonRM
>I am sure Rich "Legend In His Own Mind" Anderson was not referring to his own
>biases, just his faulty perception of everyone else's. It's the old "Do as I
>say, not as I do".
Like I said, i've criticized or praised almost EVERY telescope maker in
business and i'll go with whoever does the best job-period. I have nothing
but contempt for people who buy scopes based on "status," especially
those who know NOTHING about amateur astronomy.
Please note I don't consider you in that group.
lude...@my-dejanews.com
> Lets see. . .from what I understand Rolands Maks use a Quartz primary
> and the Russian scopes use Sital. Ive been considering a Russian 9 inch Mak so
> I've been looking into this, BTW TEC uses Sital as well. From what I
understand
> about Sital vs Quartz, Quartz would be the better material to use because of
> its ability to give up heat better.
All here like to understand why an Quarz Mak is better than an Sital Mak, did
you all ever compared it side by side ? No! So how you can be shure, that all
this discussed theory, which is not physicaly confirmed, works ? I know
individual reports where the mak from AP performs perfect , but on other side
i know of same reports from Russian maks with Sital. My 10" Mak-Newt. on
Stellafane had had zero problems with cooldown and it used an Sital mirror.
Allen Chans 8" Sital Mak-Newt. have had no problem anymore after 1 hour cool
down, I am personly using an 16" Sital and I have zero problem with cooling
effects. Maybe Quarz is mostly used as an sales argument ? From our
experience in observing under sky, Sital has no unadvantage and no problems
with cooling after the main tube itself is cooled after short time.
Since I have not seen Rolands Mak I don't
> know if the tube assembly is vented to the outside. The Russiam Maks are
sealed
> systems and are not vented
All the Russian maksutovs , made in 1998 until now with an aperature 8" and
larger from INTES MICRO are ventilated with filters and special airspaced
internal baffle system. Here you tell to the newsgroup something wrong, but
because most never saw such Russian Maks, they believe you and tell same to
here friends. Please dont spread informations about russian scopes which are
wrong.
so you well need to open the back of the scope
> tipping the eyepiece end up to the sky and let the warm air in the tube leak
> out to help speed the thermal equalization process along.
I never heard something like this from an Russian scope user !
After about an hour
> of this you should have a usable scope. I do this right now with my Quantum 6
> Mak everytime I take it out, this process takes about forty-five minutes for
> my scope, BTW the mirror on my Mak is pyrex. After my Q-6 is thermally
> stabilized, the optics perform very well comparable to my AP130 edf and at a
> recent Star Party that I attended a Takahashi eight inch Cass and a 6inch F9
> planetary Newt both owners admitted that my Quantum six had the advantage at
> least for this night :-) This was observing Jupiter and Saturn several
weekends
> ago. Since I know that Pyex takes longer than Quartz but less time than Sital
> to become thermally stable I would say that quartz would be the better choice.
> Lets continue. . .
Its only theorie.
Please make an side by side test, before you make such an decision .
>
> Now from what I have been able to infer from the Newsgroups and Thomas
> Backs review of Roland's Mak his scope giving excellent images early on
without
> having to go through this silly tipping the back end of the scope to let the
> warm air out routine as I currenty do with my Mak, hmmmm maybe I should wait
> for the the AP Mak to become available. :-)
How many AP maks has been reported ? 1 pc custommade demo 8.2" Mak-Cass. and 1
pc 9" Mak-Newt.
Please think: this are custommade scopes to test and show on starpartys.Do you
think, that each sold scope will have the same optical quality as the
demoscopes?
How difficult is it to keep an high quality in mak-telescopes? It is of the
same difficulty as in Apos.What do we know about this famous Apos? We have
heard a few reports from friends of such manufactors , here we can be nearly
very shure , that they have gotten an selected high quality scope , but how
about the quality of the serial production ? All i can say about the quality
of serial production of Russians: We sold in past 7 years thousands of them ,
each , one by one retested in germany , by us and optic centers and the
result was that even the opticcenters say, that they never before tested
serial production scopes from any other manufactors, who have had so close
quality from one to the next scope. What sense does it make to use " maybe "
the better rawmaterial, if the quality range is maybe to wide ? Because of
such reasons, Rich wrote here his impression , which i can fully underline.
Serious astronomers are not interested who make here telescopes, they are
interested to get for what they paid. Markus
>
> You know Rich since by reputation alone you are against AP scopes in
> general. The AP scopes got to be good :-)
>
> Well I've got to get ready for work now we can continue this latter
>
> Clear Skies
> Dwight L Bogan
>
>
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
lude...@my-dejanews.com
> This is the same as people
> who think $1000 6inch Intes Mak OTA's will be a consistently good
> as 7 inch Questars. Even with the starvation wages in Russian,
> it isn't going to happen.
Rich,
all i can tell you, is that the standart quality of an 6" INTES Mak-Cass will
be the same level in each scope , around 1/6 wave p.t.v. and 1/35~1/40 RMS,
even if you buy hundrets of them and give them all for testing you will be in
that level. I dont know about Questar Quality claims and consistently , but I
know it for shure about INTES.
Markus
> -Rich
>
> Since when did "no problem"
> replace "you're welcome" in
> restaurants?
>
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
Stewart Squires
> all i can tell you, is that the standart quality of an 6" INTES Mak-Cass will
> be the same level in each scope , around 1/6 wave p.t.v. and 1/35~1/40 RMS,
> even if you buy hundrets of them and give them all for testing you will be in
> that level. I dont know about Questar Quality claims and consistently , but I
> know it for shure about INTES.
Questar guarantees 1/8th wave PV system performance and has since at
least 1991 according to my records. And they also offer 1/15th wave or
better on the 3.5.
Stew
Starstuff
>How many AP maks has been reported ? 1 pc custommade demo 8.2" Mak-Cass. and 1
>pc 9" Mak-Newt.
Over a year ago I saw Mak-Cass. The owner said it was made by Roland
Christen and I have no reason to doubt that claim. The scope had an
aperture of around 8" and a two element (air spaced) miniscus
corrector (I saw the reflections off each air-glass surface). The
owner (who's eye surgery has resulted in color sensitivity beyond the
norm) stated that the color correction was better than any APO he has
looked thru. I had only a brief look at the moon, under poor seeing,
at low power with a bino viewer so cannot say anything worthwhile
concerning optical quality.
IIRC, this 'RC made' Mak may have had a fairly fast f-ratio.
I believe Roland, unlike many, learns valuable lessons from each Mak
he has built. I have no doubt that when he releases his Maks for
public consumption that performance will be at a consistently high
level.
>Please think: this are custommade scopes to test and show on starpartys.Do you
>think, that each sold scope will have the same optical quality as the
>demoscopes?
Once he starts selling the Maks, yes, I'm sure the optical quality
will be at a high enough level (consistently) to make them worthy of
ownership. His APOs have consistently high optical quality (I own
one), why wouldn't his Maks?
David A. Silva
>All here like to understand why an Quarz Mak is better than an Sital Mak, did
>you all ever compared it side by side ? No! So how you can be shure,
I believe Roland posted that *in his results* quartz was preferable for
cooldown and polish reasons. He has used other primary substrates. In this
aspect at least - primary mirror substrate - the two of you have opposite
opinions.
-David
Please remove nothereat from the return address to reply.
Sue and Alan French
>How many AP maks has been reported ? 1 pc custommade demo 8.2" Mak-Cass.
>and 1 pc 9" Mak-Newt.
>Please think: this are custommade scopes to test and show on starpartys. Do
>you think, that each sold scope will have the same optical quality as the
>demoscopes?
Markus,
In a word, yes. I don't think Roland would have it any other way.
Why would you think otherwise? And why would you post such speculations?
Clear skies, Alan
Sue and Alan French
>How many AP maks has been reported ? 1 pc custommade demo 8.2" Mak-Cass.
>and 1 pc 9" Mak-Newt.
>Please think: this are custommade scopes to test and show on starpartys. Do
>you think, that each sold scope will have the same optical quality as the
>demoscopes?
Markus,
I forgot to ask, but are you speculating because this is how APM does
things? Are your demo scopes better than your production scopes?
Clear skies, Alan
JG
Rich was simply "blue skying" the AP price. See, when someones
uses the word "Say", it can be a clear sign of conjecture. Simply
that. No conspiracy against AP or anything like that.
Sure AP wil probably get booked up on their Maks just like their
refractors, but does that mean they are better than the competition?
I have heard people say their Taks equaled APs they were compared
to, and Taks are available from stock. As are Vixens, etc.
There is definitely a 'cult-like' following of AP, which has only recently
been rewarded with color-free performance. Before that, I think the
Taks, Zeiss, and some others probably gave less color. But folks
still flocked to get AP scopes. Now all we hear is how great AP
scopes are, how color free, etc.
Actually, it is the AP owners on this NG that make the most noise about
their scopes, not Rich. AP can stand a little devil's advocacy, I think.
Rich making some observations like this may help us all to think about
price versus performance.
So, for Rich to do some conjecture and hypothesizing is within his
right to free speech. Let's have more of that.
J. Goss
DBogan3220 wrote:
> >And this really amazes me. Whenever i've observed with people,
> >their has always been unanimity on which scope performed
> >the best on planets. There is never any question as most people
> >have decent eyesight or eyesight made decent by correction.
> >Why would there be any question as to which scope (refractor
> >or mak) performed the best on planets? This is where I see biases
> >creep in that should not be there.
> >For instance; Say Roland comes out with his big Mak at $6000 to
> >$10000 for the OTA. Then, say the Russians start bringing in similar
> >Maks at $3000 to $5000. I can almost 100% guarantee you that if the
> >Russian Mak performed as well or better, there would STILL be AP fans
> >or owners who would steadfastly insist the AP was superior. That is the
> >type of non-objectivity we can all do without since we might very well
> >base our next purchases on the words of some of these people.
> >The situation could well be reversed. All I can say is that if I look
> >through
> >an AP Mak, TEC Mak, Russian Mak or Meade Mak, the one that produces
> >the BEST image is the one i'll want and if the others fall short, i'd mention
> >that they had. Then, i'll BUY the best one I can based on
> >performance, price and availability to differing extents.
> >-Rich
> >
>
> So what are you trying to imply Rich that the AP scope is not going to
> deliver a decent image just because the Russian scopes are cheaper they have to
> be better:-) Oh a BTW how do you know what the price of the proposed AP Maks
> are going to be? You of course have been corresponding with Roland on the
> matter.
>
> Lets see. . .from what I understand Rolands Maks use a Quartz primary
> and the Russian scopes use Sital. Ive been considering a Russian 9 inch Mak so
> I've been looking into this, BTW TEC uses Sital as well. From what I understand
> about Sital vs Quartz, Quartz would be the better material to use because of
> its ability to give up heat better. Since I have not seen Rolands Mak I don't
> know if the tube assembly is vented to the outside. The Russiam Maks are sealed
> systems and are not vented so you well need to open the back of the scope
> tipping the eyepiece end up to the sky and let the warm air in the tube leak
> out to help speed the thermal equalization process along. After about an hour
> of this you should have a usable scope. I do this right now with my Quantum 6
> Mak everytime I take it out, this process takes about forty-five minutes for
> my scope, BTW the mirror on my Mak is pyrex. After my Q-6 is thermally
> stabilized, the optics perform very well comparable to my AP130 edf and at a
> recent Star Party that I attended a Takahashi eight inch Cass and a 6inch F9
> planetary Newt both owners admitted that my Quantum six had the advantage at
> least for this night :-) This was observing Jupiter and Saturn several weekends
> ago. Since I know that Pyex takes longer than Quartz but less time than Sital
> to become thermally stable I would say that quartz would be the better choice.
> Lets continue. . .
>
> Now from what I have been able to infer from the Newsgroups and Thomas
> Backs review of Roland's Mak his scope giving excellent images early on without
> having to go through this silly tipping the back end of the scope to let the
> warm air out routine as I currenty do with my Mak, hmmmm maybe I should wait
> for the the AP Mak to become available. :-)
>
JG
AP, Celestron, etc. etc. etc.
What's your point?
J. Goss
Glenmore F. Wong wrote:
> AndersonRM wrote:
>
> This is where I see biases
> > creep in that should not be there.
>
> That is the
> > type of non-objectivity we can all do without since we might very well
> > base our next purchases on the words of some of these people.
>
JG
DBogan3220 wrote:
>
>
> This why we have this newsgroup so we can have a forum and dig out this
> information and try not to flame each other in the process, except for Rich
> Anderson and J Goss I do have to admit I enjoy flaming those two :-)
>
But that is only because you are such a complete idiot!!! Most of those doing
all the flaming have shown themselves to be less than knowledgable but plenty
opinionated.
Believe me, I wouldn't share any optical design information with this newsgroup
since there are so many who don't deserve to learn anything new.
It is for sure that Roland is not going to hand out much of his design knowledge,
but let's see him build some scopes that just devastate the competition. So
far, he hasn't, but many of you still complain and whenever someone like
Rich speaks out, you have to try to slap him down.
Go ahead, say whatever you like on this meaningless newsgroup full of egos and
braggards. In the meantime, some of the rest of us will be off building better
scopes than we can get from Roland Christen or Markus Ludes. (unless Markus
can have his Russian friends custom build something for us...) And that is not
a wildass claim, it can be done and we will do it. Just for ourselves, just for
our own satisfaction. And your opinions and flames will be left in the dust...
J. Goss
DBogan3220
>All here like to understand why an Quarz Mak is better than an Sital Mak, did
>you all ever compared it side by side ? No! So how you can be shure, that all
Not yet! However I have observed with a TEC 8 inch Mak with a Sital pirimary at
RTMC three years ago that was when I first encountered Sital. But a definative
side by side comparison was not done. I'm still learning about this material
since I have seen it advertised, From what I understand it is a ceramic similar
to Cer-vit.
>My 10" Mak-Newt. on
>Stellafane had had zero problems with cooldown and it used an Sital mirror.
>Allen Chans 8" Sital Mak-Newt. have had no problem anymore after 1 hour cool
>down
This is certainly nice to know.
>. Maybe Quarz is mostly used as an sales argument
A few people have used Quartz before done well it is an excellent material to
make mirrors out of and oh yeah Questar had made some quartz Maks but that was
probably over twenty years ago, they also used Cer-vit and currently use
zerodur
>From our
>experience in observing under sky, Sital has no unadvantage and no problems
>with cooling after the main tube itself is cooled after short time.
This is the kind of information most of use on this newsgroup are looking for,
pratical " field experience and not some esoteric testing done in an obscure
Lab
>All the Russian maksutovs , made in 1998 until now with an aperature 8" and
>larger from INTES MICRO are ventilated with filters and special airspaced
>internal baffle system. Here you tell to the newsgroup something wrong, but
My information that I have access to is dated so I now stand corrected this
again is nice to know.
>but
>because most never saw such Russian Maks, they believe you and tell same to
>here friends. Please dont spread informations about russian scopes which are
>wrong.
This why we have this newsgroup so we can have a forum and dig out this
information and try not to flame each other in the process, except for Rich
Anderson and J Goss I do have to admit I enjoy flaming those two :-)
>Please think: this are custommade scopes to test and show on starpartys.Do
>you
>think, that each sold scope will have the same optical quality as the
>demoscopes?
So far Roland has done very well with his refractors I would say it would be a
very safe bet that he will be able to do the same with his Mak's
>Serious astronomers are not interested who make here telescopes, they are
>interested to get for what they paid. Markus
>
Yes they are!
AndersonRM
>all i can tell you, is that the standart quality of an 6" INTES Mak-Cass will
>be the same level in each scope , around 1/6 wave p.t.v. and 1/35~1/40 RMS,
>even if you buy hundrets of them and give them all for testing you will be in
>that level. I dont know about Questar Quality claims and consistently , but I
>know it for shure about INTES.
I saw the ad in Sky And Tel that said "best telescope for under $7000"
in regard to the mak-newt and I hoped it wasn't an exaggeration.
AndersonRM
In article <363B5B...@tar-palantir.com>, Stewart Squires
<squi...@tar-palantir.com> writes:
>Questar guarantees 1/8th wave PV system performance and has since at
>least 1991 according to my records. And they also offer 1/15th wave or
>better on the 3.5.
According to one source, they released a few "lemons" that didn't even
make 1/4" wave. However, I believe they were all sent back for
re-figuring.
AndersonRM
In article <363b6b6f.17150331@news>, life...@stars.end (Starstuff) writes:
>Over a year ago I saw Mak-Cass. The owner said it was made by Roland
>Christen and I have no reason to doubt that claim. The scope had an
>aperture of around 8" and a two element (air spaced) miniscus
>corrector (I saw the reflections off each air-glass surface).
An achromatic corrector?? I've only seen that on one 4 inch
Russian mak. I wonder what an 8 inch like that would cost?
AndersonRM
In article <uWlommSB#GA.150@upnetnews03>, "Sue and Alan French"
<sue_and_a...@msn.com> writes:
>In a word, yes. I don't think Roland would have it any other way.
>
>Why would you think otherwise? And why would you post such speculations?
>
>
Well, I compared older 6 inch F12 sold as a regular customer item
and a same vintage 6 inch F8 that was Roland's own scope and the
6 inch F8 beat the F12 on the planets. Since these scopes
were built before complete colour correction was possible, the F12
"should" have beaten the F8. I'm hoping the fellow who has the 6
inch F8 will be willing to sell it in the next little while. But, Roland
has also stated he won't provide interferomegrams because he
doesn't want someone with a 1/10th wave scope from feeling bad
because his friend bought the same scope which measured out at
1/12th wave. I suspect that just like Meade and Celestron, AP's scopes
vary from one another by a certain amount, these differences being
visible to some, but not to others.
For those who seem to have trouble reading correctly, I am NOT saying
the variance is as WIDE as scopes from Meade or Celestron!
lude...@my-dejanews.com
ander...@aol.com (AndersonRM) wrote:
>
> In article <363b6b6f.17150331@news>, life...@stars.end (Starstuff) writes:
>
> >Over a year ago I saw Mak-Cass. The owner said it was made by Roland
> >Christen and I have no reason to doubt that claim. The scope had an
> >aperture of around 8" and a two element (air spaced) miniscus
> >corrector (I saw the reflections off each air-glass surface).
>
> An achromatic corrector?? I've only seen that on one 4 inch
> Russian mak. I wonder what an 8 inch like that would cost?
> -Rich
The 4" Mak is called " Rubinar 100/1000. A few years I tried to start
business with an small russian company. The shipped me such an 6"F/8 Maksutov
with douple-airspaced meniscuscorrector. Most called them Houghton Maksutov,
but the real name is " Houghton-Cassegrain". The price was very similar to
the other 6" Mak-Casse. The both lenses has been close to flat and the big
adavantage of the scope was an extra large photographic field and the
possibility to compensated the spherical aberation close to zero due changing
the space of both corrector elements. This 1 sampe , was until today the
opticly best 6" Mak I ever saw and tested. The problem: it was much heavier
than the other 6" maks and the company was an crime company, so we stopped in
the beginning that business. Markus
>
> Since when did "no problem"
> replace "you're welcome" in
> restaurants?
>
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
lude...@my-dejanews.com
"David A. Silva" <das...@nothereatscsconsult.com> wrote:
> On Sat, 31 Oct 1998 15:33:05 GMT, lude...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
>
> >you all ever compared it side by side ? No! So how you can be shure,
>
> cooldown and polish reasons. He has used other primary substrates. In this
> aspect at least - primary mirror substrate - the two of you have opposite
> opinions.
Still , I cannot confirm . I know too, that quarz cool more quickly down than
zerodur or Sital. So Quarz would be of course the better substrate. The only
thing I am saying, is that the mirrorsubstrate is not the main problem in the
maksutov-Telescope-problems and therefore we cannot see an real adavantage of
using quarz instead of pyrex or Sital.
Markus
>
> -David
>
> Please remove nothereat from the return address to reply.
>
>
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
lude...@my-dejanews.com
"Sue and Alan French" <sue_and_a...@msn.com> wrote:
> lude...@my-dejanews.com wrote >
>
> >How many AP maks has been reported ? 1 pc custommade demo 8.2" Mak-Cass.
> >and 1 pc 9" Mak-Newt.
> >Please think: this are custommade scopes to test and show on starpartys. Do
> >you think, that each sold scope will have the same optical quality as the
> >demoscopes?
>
>
> I forgot to ask, but are you speculating because this is how APM does
> things? Are your demo scopes better than your production scopes?
My 10" saw first light at Stellafane, because I received it only 1 day before
flying to USA.I have had no second one in stock to choose.I not believe to
any manufactors claim, even not the russian claims. Only after we made the
controll, we are shure about the quality. If you see my webside anybody can
order an individual made in germany interferometrical testreport for " his "
scope. For demo on starpartys, i take what i have. About Apos I must ask
mostly my customers , can I have it for Starpartys, because Aries have even
longer delay than AP. I would be happy, if I could have the possibility to
keep an extra high quality scope of size for ever , but my customers crying"
when i get my scope". Is that answere good enough for you Alan ? best wishes
Markus
>
> Clear skies, Alan
Todd Gross
>>How many AP maks has been reported ? 1 pc custommade demo 8.2" Mak-Cass.
>>and 1 pc 9" Mak-Newt.
>>Please think: this are custommade scopes to test and show on starpartys. Do
>>you think, that each sold scope will have the same optical quality as the
>>demoscopes?
>Markus,
>In a word, yes. I don't think Roland would have it any other way.
>Why would you think otherwise? And why would you post such speculations?
>Clear skies, Alan
Todd Gross
it's the consistency that I am so impressed with in recent years. More-so
than the Takahashis. And having this done in the US where the manufacturer
is known to be responsive and easily reachable should any problems arise is
very alluring.
It's just supply and demand.. the price is set right compared to the Taks,
and the no. of scopes are few. Devil's advocacy can't hurt, but there is no
reason I can see NOT to show allegiance to such a fine product.
ToddG
No A/P scope >I
>J. Goss
>DBogan3220 wrote:
>> >or mak) performed the best on planets? This is where I see biases
>> >creep in that should not be there.
>> >For instance; Say Roland comes out with his big Mak at $6000 to
>> >$10000 for the OTA. Then, say the Russians start bringing in similar
>> >Maks at $3000 to $5000. I can almost 100% guarantee you that if the
>> >Russian Mak performed as well or better, there would STILL be AP fans
>> >or owners who would steadfastly insist the AP was superior. That is the
>> >type of non-objectivity we can all do without since we might very well
>> >base our next purchases on the words of some of these people.
Sue and Alan French
Certainly there is some variation in AP lenses, which is why Roland doesn't
want to provide interferograms and start people whining they don't have
there scope is only 1/12 wave while their friends is 1/14th wave. People
like numbers to brag about, even if the differences are not significant in
the real world of observing.
However, I believe if you are talking about a 6" f/12 and a 6" f/8 of the
same vintage, you are talking about scopes made before AstroPhysics had an
interferometer. The interferometer allows AP to make lenses are much more
consistant. I suspect the differences between individual lenses today would
be difficult to detect and would mean essentially no difference in
performance.
Clear skies, Alan
BTW,
I once heard that Questar briefly provided optical documentation for
each scope and ran into problems when customers compared results. Does
anyone know if this is true, or is it just a story?
AndersonRM wrote in message
<19981101023449...@ngol05.aol.com>...
>
>In article <uWlommSB#GA.150@upnetnews03>, "Sue and Alan French"
><sue_and_a...@msn.com> writes:
>
>>In a word, yes. I don't think Roland would have it any other way.
>>
>>Why would you think otherwise? And why would you post such speculations?
>>
Sue and Alan French
I guess that is good enough for me, but you still haven't explained why you
believe that AP demo scopes would be better than the production scopes.
Too bad we won't get to see your scopes at WSP this year.
Clear skies, Alan
lude...@my-dejanews.com wrote in message
<71hig9$tp6$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
>In article <#mwZstSB#GA.158@upnetnews03>,
> "Sue and Alan French" <sue_and_a...@msn.com> wrote:
>> lude...@my-dejanews.com wrote >
>>
>> >How many AP maks has been reported ? 1 pc custommade demo 8.2" Mak-Cass.
>> >and 1 pc 9" Mak-Newt.
>> >Please think: this are custommade scopes to test and show on starpartys.
Do
>> >you think, that each sold scope will have the same optical quality as
the
>> >demoscopes?
>>
Starvick
>than the Takahashis. And having this done in the US where the manufacturer
>is known to be responsive and easily reachable should any problems arise is
>very alluring.
>
Not to mention the fact that it is very refrashing to do bussiness with an
extremely well run company to boot. When you call them they are bright and on
top of things. They have answers that are informed and correct. In addition
they tell the truth about shipping dates and give you no blue sky estimates
just to get you off of the phone. It may not be what you want to hear but it is
accurate to the best of their ability and to show good faith you can have a
full refund if you cannot stand the wait. In a world that is dominated with
flaky bussiness people and practices I find Astro Physics to be rather odd.....
and I am impressed! Now if you produce an excellent product and competitive
pricing you end up with high demand and high resale. What more could the
consumer ask for? Regards, Jeff Vickers
lude...@my-dejanews.com
to have trouble reading correctly, I am NOT saying
> the variance is as WIDE as scopes from Meade or Celestron!
> -Rich
Rich, why not so wide ? How wide is Meade and Celestron ? my opinion : from
1/2 ~1/4 wave, this is not an big tolerance , I think this is an much smaller
tolerance than many others.
>
> Since when did "no problem"
> replace "you're welcome" in
> restaurants?
>
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
lude...@my-dejanews.com
> His APOs have consistently high optical quality (I own
> one), why wouldn't his Maks?
does his Apos really have consistently high optical quality ? How many you
really saw ? what do you understand under high quality?
dont be worry about me, i only ask you some questions, okay?
lude...@my-dejanews.com
> scopes than we can get from Roland Christen or Markus Ludes. (unless Markus
> can have his Russian friends custom build something for us...) And that is
not>
> J. Goss
>
Hi J.
INTES MICRO is the only company in Russia who accept custom made
telescopeorders (for amateurs up to 40") with any wish of the customer. Myself
, we accept any customordered telescope with russian optics.
Markus
lude...@my-dejanews.com
squi...@tar-palantir.com wrote:
> lude...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
>
> > all i can tell you, is that the standart quality of an 6" INTES Mak-Cass
will
> > be the same level in each scope , around 1/6 wave p.t.v. and 1/35~1/40 RMS,
> > even if you buy hundrets of them and give them all for testing you will be
in
> > that level. I dont know about Questar Quality claims and consistently , but
I
> > know it for shure about INTES.
>
> least 1991 according to my records. And they also offer 1/15th wave or
> better on the 3.5.
>
Stew,
but as you know , such superlative quality has his price , for which you must
agree , if you like to get an Questar. My old 1969 made 3.5" have also had his
1/8 wave.
DBogan3220
>Rich was simply "blue skying"
I don't really mean to attack anyone, but I do like to tease, after all
sometimes Rich does make statements that I have agreed with in the past and so
have several of my friends like someone with the intials "JV" but he well never
admit it:-) Hey Jeff you are not reading this are you! :-)
>Sure AP wil probably get booked up on their Maks just like their
>refractors
Oh that I would be certain to happen, the day AP opens the order list, they
well probably be sold out in less than a week
>I have heard people say their Taks equaled APs they were compared
>to,
In the visual range the Taks are every bit as good as the AP scopes, however if
your into CCD and want corection into the far red then some users well probably
argue the point, I am not into CCD so I can't really comment there. Maybe
Thomas could tell the difference but I cannot as far as the visual range is
concerned.
>and Taks are available from stock.
I've heard there has been a waiting list developing there too, but that is only
a rumour
>Now all we hear is how great AP
>scopes are, how color free, etc.
>
Well they are! When I recieved my 130edf over two years ago I was amazed at how
color free the optics were, since I owned at that time a Brandon94mm apo where
AP made the objectives. AP has made some definite improvements over the years
I have observed with several of the early AP models in the past. It was a short
observing session with a 6" F12 at RTMC from about 1986 that brought my
attention to AP, I was really impressed how sharply objects came into focus.
Sevearl years later I had the chance to look through a 5" F8 and a 5" F12 while
interesting to look through did not impress me as much as that 6" F12. Then
several years after that I ordered a 94mm Brandon which I really liked alot.
Then one year I showed up with my Brandon and set up next to a fellow club
member who had a Star 12 AP refractor which made a very positive impression
with me. So much so that I called for a catalog and received info on the 130edf
which I later placed an order for. The 130edf is shorter than the Star 12 and
larger aperture and just as sharp and as colour free. When another friend of
mine took delivery of his 6" F7 I was really impressed here was a scope that
performs visually as well as the 130edf but with a bit more aperture so various
objects are brighter. In my opinion the 6" F7 is just as sharp as that 6"F!2
from 1986 but with a shorter tube and less weight.
>There is definitely a 'cult-like' following of AP, which has only recently
>been rewarded with color-free performance.
Oh I don't know if I would call it a cult like following, maybe a fetish
>Actually, it is the AP owners on this NG that make the most noise about
>their scopes,
Well let have their day, maybe they are trying to say something positive.
>ot Rich. AP can stand a little devil's advocacy, I think.
>
>
Could that be construed as being self destructive, what would be the point?
>Rich making some observations like this may help us all to think about
>price versus performance.
>
It depends on what you want to doIf all you care about is planetary observing
and you don't want to spend a lot of money on a high tech refractor then get or
make a 6" F9 Newt on a pipe mounting. Mike Spooner is making a few of them
from time to time I have obeserved with two of his mirrors another friend of
mine has made up a 6"F9 and we plan to go out the next dark of the moon.
If you are into faint fuzzies ie; galaxies get or make a 14" or larger newt
If you are into photography then consider a schmidt camera or one of the
Takahashi Epsilon newts they give excellent results.
No one telescope does everything but I'll tell you this for the aperture the
AP's are probably the best, don't believe me go check out the various WEB sites
such as Tony and Daphne Hallas or Chuck Vaughn as well as Wallis and Provins
Web pages there are many others. Go to a major Star Party and go see for your
self
>So, for Rich to do some conjecture and hypothesizing is within his
>right to free speech. Let's have more of that.
>
Would'nt have it any other way
DBogan3220
>But that is only because you are such a complete idiot!!!
Hey for a 100k a year you can call me any God Damn thing you like!
>Most of those doing
>all the flaming have shown themselves to be less than knowledgable but plenty
>opinionated.
Maybe that is true maybe that it isnt, Thomas Back is someone I listen too, he
has plenty of good pratical experience, So does Richard Whalen and many others,
So you J Goss claim more knowledge why don't you share it with the rest.
>Believe me, I wouldn't share any optical design information with this
>newsgroup
>since there are so many who don't deserve to learn anything new.
>
What knowledge do you have to contribute? For three month's now all I have
seen you do is insult others who have done much more than you.
You and optical design information . . .This has got to be a troll
>It is for sure that Roland is not going to hand out much of his design
>knowledge,
Of not its his business, I would expect that to be proprietory
>but let's see him build some scopes that just devastate the competition.
He already has
> So
>far, he hasn't,
Where do you get this idea from, it is obvious you have never looked through a
current design AP refractor.
>, but many of you still complain and whenever someone like
>Rich speaks out, you have to try to slap him down.
>
Oh I like Rich! I think he add's quite a lot of color to this newsgroup, He
kind of reminds me of Nancy from several years back, with out him this
newsgroup would be boring. Rich please don't go . . .
J Goss you can go we won't miss you!
>Go ahead, say whatever you like on this meaningless newsgroup full of egos
>and
>braggards.
Oh I will and so will many other's, But. . excuse me are you not doing the
same yourself?
> In the meantime, some of the rest of us will be off building better
>scopes than we can get from Roland Christen or Markus Ludes.
yeah right, go ahead do it, I dare ya
Oh and when you get done why don't you come to RTMC and show up for the little
competition they have each year, you might just get an honorable mention.
>unless Markus
>can have his Russian friends custom build something for us...)
ho hum
>And that is not
>a wildass claim, it can be done and we will do it.
Who's we! you've got a mouse in your pocket?
>ust for ourselves, just for
>our own satisfaction. And your opinions and flames will be left in the
>dust...
>
Well I hope so. . .
Starvick
>kind of reminds me of Nancy from several years back, with out him this
>newsgroup would be boring. Rich please don't go . . .
>J Goss you can go we won't miss you!
Now hold on here Dwight!!! I for one enjoy watching people like J. Goose make a
fool of himself. "We love ya man" Jeff V.
DBogan3220
OK I take it back J Goose don't leave either please stay and make a bigger fool
of youself!
Glenmore F. Wong
>
> Believe me, I wouldn't share any optical design information with this newsgroup
> since there are so many who don't deserve to learn anything new.
In the meantime, some of the rest of us will be off building better
> scopes than we can get from Roland Christen or Markus Ludes.
And that is not
> a wildass claim, it can be done and we will do it. Just for ourselves, just for
> our own satisfaction. And your opinions and flames will be left in the dust...
>
> J. Goss
Reminds me of a cartoon of a middle-aged man, beer in hand, boxer
shorts, planted in front of his TV on his threadbare couch, two-day
stubble, grousing at the screen, "I coulda made that shot!, I coulda
made that play!, I could do those endorsements!"
glenmore
Kevin N. Brown
JG to my killfile because I got tired of their idiotic posts. I may have to
reconsider.
Kevin Brown
Burke, VA
DBogan3220 wrote in message <19981101115632...@ng94.aol.com>...
Starvick
>Looks like I am missing out on a lot of fun. I had relegated RMAnderson and
>JG to my killfile because I got tired of their idiotic posts. I may have to
>reconsider.
>
>Kevin Brown
Kevin, the same jokes are told over and over again. Same punch lines, different
plots. Jeff V.
TMBack
>Kevin, the same jokes are told over and over again.
>Same punch lines, different plots.
Hi Jeff,
Yes, that just about sums it up perfectly.
Dwight L Bogan wrote:
>What knowledge do you have to contribute? For three
>month's now all I have seen you do is insult others who
>have done much more than you.
>
>You and optical design information . . .This has got to be
>a troll.
Hi Dwight,
Again, right on the money. I'm still waiting for his
superior optical designs, so I can show all on s.a.a.
their performance, and how they can be improved.
But I guess we are not worthy of such superior optical
knowledge.
Thomas Back
DBogan3220
>
> Again, right on the money. I'm still waiting for his
>superior optical designs, so I can show all on s.a.a.
>their performance, and how they can be improved.
>But I guess we are not worthy of such superior optical
>knowledge.
>
>
>Thomas Back
>
>
>
>
Hi Thomas,
You're right you've got the program to evaluate the optics, how silly
of me to forget. So I extend an offer to J GOOSE to please send his "Superior
optical designs " to Thomas Back so that he can evaluate them. Then the people
who read this newsgroup will be able to recognize the Great Optical Design
Master that J GOOSE has become in his closet.
JG
I've got one for you...what is a complete list of why AP would choose
to use quartz instead of Pyrex, Sital, CerVit, or Zerodur???? Is it
just cooling, ease of figure and/or polish,...all the usual, or is there
something else?
Please don't list things like "100K a year", it makes you out to be a
fool...how much money you make means nothing to me. Far better
astronomers than you and anyone I've seen post to this list have
been known to make less than that. This BS belongs somewhere else.
And please do exercise your right to free speech, just realize that some
free speech is also BS.
J.G.
DBogan3220 wrote:
> >But that is only because you are such a complete idiot!!!
>
> Hey for a 100k a year you can call me any God Damn thing you like!
>
> >Most of those doing
> >all the flaming have shown themselves to be less than knowledgable but plenty
> >opinionated.
>
> Maybe that is true maybe that it isnt, Thomas Back is someone I listen too, he
> has plenty of good pratical experience, So does Richard Whalen and many others,
> So you J Goss claim more knowledge why don't you share it with the rest.
>
> >Believe me, I wouldn't share any optical design information with this
> >newsgroup
> >since there are so many who don't deserve to learn anything new.
> >
>
> What knowledge do you have to contribute? For three month's now all I have
> seen you do is insult others who have done much more than you.
>
> You and optical design information . . .This has got to be a troll
>
> >It is for sure that Roland is not going to hand out much of his design
> >knowledge,
>
> Of not its his business, I would expect that to be proprietory
>
> >but let's see him build some scopes that just devastate the competition.
>
> He already has
>
> > So
> >far, he hasn't,
>
> Where do you get this idea from, it is obvious you have never looked through a
> current design AP refractor.
>
> >, but many of you still complain and whenever someone like
> >Rich speaks out, you have to try to slap him down.
> >
>
> Oh I like Rich! I think he add's quite a lot of color to this newsgroup, He
> kind of reminds me of Nancy from several years back, with out him this
> newsgroup would be boring. Rich please don't go . . .
> J Goss you can go we won't miss you!
>
> >Go ahead, say whatever you like on this meaningless newsgroup full of egos
> >and
> >braggards.
>
> Oh I will and so will many other's, But. . excuse me are you not doing the
> same yourself?
>
> > In the meantime, some of the rest of us will be off building better
> >scopes than we can get from Roland Christen or Markus Ludes.
>
> yeah right, go ahead do it, I dare ya
>
> Oh and when you get done why don't you come to RTMC and show up for the little
> competition they have each year, you might just get an honorable mention.
>
> >unless Markus
> >can have his Russian friends custom build something for us...)
>
> ho hum
>
> >And that is not
> >a wildass claim, it can be done and we will do it.
>
> Who's we! you've got a mouse in your pocket?
>
> >ust for ourselves, just for
> >our own satisfaction. And your opinions and flames will be left in the
> >dust...
> >
>
> Well I hope so. . .
>
JG
otherwise
some of us might pay attention to you.
JG
Starvick wrote:
> >Oh I like Rich! I think he add's quite a lot of color to this newsgroup, He
> >kind of reminds me of Nancy from several years back, with out him this
> >newsgroup would be boring. Rich please don't go . . .
> >J Goss you can go we won't miss you!
>
JG
Are we talking 'out the eyepiece' or at the primary. My Ronchi testing shows that
these
scopes can give acceptable visual performance with 1/3 wave or less at the
eyepiece.
I still don't know why more folks describing the superb quality of their scopes
don't
take the time to really learn star testing (like using the right filters, the
right seeing
conditions,etc) and also use the eyepiece Ronchi test just to prove their optics
are
better than that.
Are they afraid of something?
J. Goss
lude...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> In article <19981101023449...@ngol05.aol.com>,> For those who seem
> to have trouble reading correctly, I am NOT saying
> > the variance is as WIDE as scopes from Meade or Celestron!
> > -Rich
>
> Rich, why not so wide ? How wide is Meade and Celestron ? my opinion : from
> 1/2 ~1/4 wave, this is not an big tolerance , I think this is an much smaller
> tolerance than many others.
>
> >
> > Since when did "no problem"
> > replace "you're welcome" in
> > restaurants?
> >
>
JG
Your only failing is to not ask enough questions. The insulting Americans on
this
list only understand 'name branding' and what 'experts' say. It is all in the
culture,
they are brainwashed from an early age. That is why many say so many silly
things here, they don't know any better.
J. Goss
lude...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> In article <363b6b6f.17150331@news>,
>
> > His APOs have consistently high optical quality (I own
> > one), why wouldn't his Maks?
> does his Apos really have consistently high optical quality ? How many you
> really saw ? what do you understand under high quality?
> dont be worry about me, i only ask you some questions, okay?
> >
>
JG
optics for yourself. Another personal attack by you...it's like a day without
sunshine...stupidity on sci.astro.amateur and no new information from you.
JG
Glenmore F. Wong wrote:
> JG wrote:
>
> >
> > Believe me, I wouldn't share any optical design information with this newsgroup
> > since there are so many who don't deserve to learn anything new.
>
> In the meantime, some of the rest of us will be off building better
> > scopes than we can get from Roland Christen or Markus Ludes.
>
> And that is not
> > a wildass claim, it can be done and we will do it. Just for ourselves, just for
> > our own satisfaction. And your opinions and flames will be left in the dust...
> >
JG
'experts'
and friends to quote????
JG
Kevin N. Brown wrote:
> Looks like I am missing out on a lot of fun. I had relegated RMAnderson and
> JG to my killfile because I got tired of their idiotic posts. I may have to
> reconsider.
>
> Kevin Brown
> Burke, VA
>
> DBogan3220 wrote in message <19981101115632...@ng94.aol.com>...
> >>>Oh I like Rich! I think he add's quite a lot of color to this newsgroup,
> He
> >>>kind of reminds me of Nancy from several years back, with out him this
> >>>newsgroup would be boring. Rich please don't go . . .
> >>>J Goss you can go we won't miss you!
> >>
> >>Now hold on here Dwight!!! I for one enjoy watching people like J. Goose
> make
> >>a
> >>fool of himself. "We love ya man" Jeff V.
> >>
> >>
> >
JG
theoretical
stuff you post...I am aquiring what I need to do what I need, without
any help
from you.
JG
TMBack wrote: \
> Jeff V. wrote:
>
> >Kevin, the same jokes are told over and over again.
> >Same punch lines, different plots.
>
> Hi Jeff,
>
> Yes, that just about sums it up perfectly.
>
> Dwight L Bogan wrote:
>
> >What knowledge do you have to contribute? For three
> >month's now all I have seen you do is insult others who
> >have done much more than you.
> >
> >You and optical design information . . .This has got to be
> >a troll.
JG
DBogan3220 wrote:
Yeah J Goose like all your free speech is BS
> Clear Skies oh I mean Rainey Skies for J Goose since he is a bad person
>
> Dwight L Bogan
Oh, poor Dwight, what hate have I wrought???? BTW, it is beyond ridiculousfor
adults (you are an adult, right?) to call me "Goose", that went out in second
grade. Of course, I wouldn't try it at a star party, unless you want to wind up
looking like a goose...
Everyday is a sunny sky for me, because I know what I know, and I know what
you don't know....including optics.
J.Goss
Peter Natscher
to cool down?
Peter Natscher
Belmont, Ca
lude...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> In article <19981101023448...@ngol05.aol.com>,
> ander...@aol.com (AndersonRM) wrote:
> >
> > In article <363b6b6f.17150331@news>, life...@stars.end (Starstuff) writes:
> >
> > >Over a year ago I saw Mak-Cass. The owner said it was made by Roland
> > >Christen and I have no reason to doubt that claim. The scope had an
> > >aperture of around 8" and a two element (air spaced) miniscus
> > >corrector (I saw the reflections off each air-glass surface).
> >
> > An achromatic corrector?? I've only seen that on one 4 inch
> > Russian mak. I wonder what an 8 inch like that would cost?
> > -Rich
>
> The 4" Mak is called " Rubinar 100/1000. A few years I tried to start
> business with an small russian company. The shipped me such an 6"F/8 Maksutov
> with douple-airspaced meniscuscorrector. Most called them Houghton Maksutov,
> but the real name is " Houghton-Cassegrain". The price was very similar to
> the other 6" Mak-Casse. The both lenses has been close to flat and the big
> adavantage of the scope was an extra large photographic field and the
> possibility to compensated the spherical aberation close to zero due changing
> the space of both corrector elements. This 1 sampe , was until today the
> opticly best 6" Mak I ever saw and tested. The problem: it was much heavier
> than the other 6" maks and the company was an crime company, so we stopped in
> the beginning that business. Markus
>
> >
> > Since when did "no problem"
> > replace "you're welcome" in
> > restaurants?
> >
>
Peter Natscher
now and then, has what is supposed to be the best 7.1" EDT Roland ever made.
It's at least twice better than any other 7.1" EDT (1/20 wave). His scope
went back and forth to Roland a few times for rework until Thomas was
satisfied. There must be a good friendship there. There are notable
variations within the production line of all custom made scopes. The 18
existing Ceravolo HD216's, of which I own one, have interferrograms given to
each owner. A few of us compared our HD216 specs and saw 10% variation
between the p-v accuracies. Peter Ceravolo is the only person doing the
optical work in his line of Maks. He's a one man band compared to Roland's
Astro-Physics.
Peter Natscher
Belmont, CA
AndersonRM wrote:
> In article <uWlommSB#GA.150@upnetnews03>, "Sue and Alan French"
> <sue_and_a...@msn.com> writes:
>
> >In a word, yes. I don't think Roland would have it any other way.
> >
> >Why would you think otherwise? And why would you post such speculations?
> >
> >
>
> Well, I compared older 6 inch F12 sold as a regular customer item
> and a same vintage 6 inch F8 that was Roland's own scope and the
> 6 inch F8 beat the F12 on the planets. Since these scopes
> were built before complete colour correction was possible, the F12
> "should" have beaten the F8. I'm hoping the fellow who has the 6
> inch F8 will be willing to sell it in the next little while. But, Roland
> has also stated he won't provide interferomegrams because he
> doesn't want someone with a 1/10th wave scope from feeling bad
> because his friend bought the same scope which measured out at
> 1/12th wave. I suspect that just like Meade and Celestron, AP's scopes
> vary from one another by a certain amount, these differences being
> visible to some, but not to others.
> For those who seem to have trouble reading correctly, I am NOT saying
> the variance is as WIDE as scopes from Meade or Celestron!
> -Rich
>
Peter Natscher
scopes over here in the US in 1999? We're all still interested in how well your
scopes perform against similar designs. I know I am. All this talk about
numbers ... to me, it all boils down to how well things operated in a side by
side comparison wioth other top quality telescopes.
Peter Natscher
Belmont, CA
Sue and Alan French wrote:
> Markus,
>
> I guess that is good enough for me, but you still haven't explained why you
> believe that AP demo scopes would be better than the production scopes.
>
> Too bad we won't get to see your scopes at WSP this year.
>
> Clear skies, Alan
DBogan3220
>
And you won't see any optical design information from me because I am not an
optical engineer, oh yes I have tested a few mirrors including my own fourteen
inch Newt but that does not make me an optical designer
But I at least don't go around and be somone that I am not like you do.
>I've got one for you...what is a complete list of why AP would choose
>to use quartz instead of Pyrex, Sital, CerVit, or Zerodur???? Is it
>just cooling, ease of figure and/or polish,...all the usual, or is there
>something else?
Give me a break, why don't you ask Roland since this is his preference. He has
very good reasons why he chooses the material that he wants to work with.
For my next newtonian adventure I choose a 12 inch diam 2inch thick molded
blank simply for the price $100 at the RTMC swap meet I did have a chance to
purchase a Quartz blank at the same time but passed on it because the owner
wanted $250 dollars and I did not desire the extra labor involved to grind and
polish a quartz mirror since I'm pushing the glass myself. Quartz is more
difficult to work but it does take on a great polish when done right.
As far as Sital, Cer-Vit Zero-dur is concerned why would I want to make my life
more difficult by taking on materials that are more easily scratched during the
polishing phase.
As far as I'm concerned if your doing your own home grown optics my choice of
mirror substrate would be pyrex 2nd choice would be quartz and you can forget
the rest. Let someone else have the headaches.
As far as AP using Quartz, they can use whatever material they so desire since
they have a machine called the opticam that can do any spherical surface within
reason and from what I understand they can do just about any substrate that is
out on the market.
>Please don't list things like "100K a year", it makes you out to be a
>fool...how much money you make means nothing to me.
Boy what planet do you come from J Goose? Can't see a jab coming at em even
when it spelled out, BTW you called me an idiot and I called you a fool, so
that means you have to call me something else you can't use the same word that
I used on you, this is common flame
etiquette
>And please do exercise your right to free speech, just realize that some
>free speech is also BS.
>
>J.G.
Yeah J Goose like all your free speech is BS
Todd Gross
looked through 3, and star tested 3 astrophysics scopes.. 4 if you include an
older model. As I have reported, the older scope was not perfect, the 3
recent models were essentially a near-perfect star test.
Others on this group have all reported similar findings. I don't know of one,
not one in the last 3 years or more that has been reported anything less than
stellar in performance and star test
Inconsistency with Takahashi and Intes scopes in their performance has been
more prevalent in recent years. Reported on this newsgroup numerous times,
and from dealers who you know.
You have some good ideas, it is a shame to see you waste energy on this
topic. Have you any specific information to share regarding a
recent-vintage A/P scope? If not, I suppose it doesn't hurt to probe, but
you are wasting your valuable time, in my opinion.
Todd G
>In article <363b6b6f.17150331@news>,
>> His APOs have consistently high optical quality (I own
>> one), why wouldn't his Maks?
>does his Apos really have consistently high optical quality ? How many you
>really saw ? what do you understand under high quality?
>dont be worry about me, i only ask you some questions, okay?
>>
>-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
Todd Gross
weatherman (no comments please). That is, I start with an assumption, in this
case A/P scopes of recent vintage are excellent, and wait to hear
contrary from ANY user.... including myself. It's not that hard to
comprehend. Anyone who knows how to star test will report back that his 4, 5,
6" A/P is just plain excellent. Do you have something to share that would lead
me to believe otherwise? It doesn't hurt to probe and question, I am all for
it. More reports from knowledgeable users and star testers would be great.
But, why should Markus knock himself out on this topic? Shouldn't he be adding
something substantive or creating new scopes or something? Markus has been
largely responsible for bringing some great scopes to the States, let that
work go on!
>Your only failing is to not ask enough questions. The insulting Americans on
>this
>list only understand 'name branding' and what 'experts' say. It is all in the
>culture,
>they are brainwashed from an early age. That is why many say so many silly
>things here, they don't know any better.
>J. Goss
bro...@my-dejanews.com
I guess what I don't understand is that if JG considers himself so superior
to everyone on this newsgroup why he continues to participate. I would think
that he, Rich Anderson, and a couple of others would want to form their own
newsgroup where they could proclaim their optical expertise to each other
without having to deal with the 'insulting Americans' asking for evidence of
this supposed expertise. -- Kevin Brown Burke, VA
lude...@my-dejanews.com
question, I am all for
> it. More reports from knowledgeable users and star testers would be great.
> But, why should Markus knock himself out on this topic? Shouldn't he be
adding
> something substantive or creating new scopes or something? Markus has been
> largely responsible for bringing some great scopes to the States, let that
> work go on!
Todd, question to you : what is the best which could happens to the amateurs
? answere: if manufactors have running an very big competition , who make the
best telescope ! you agree? Thats whats going on at the moment. Roland like
to be the best and I like to be the best with Aries, INTES and INTES MICRO
too. Whats the result: new telescopes, improvements, and deluxeversions. What
can customers ask more ? I think they must be very happy, that we have such
an competition running each day. For me its a lot of fun and an big forcement
to think each day about something new. best wishes Markus
lude...@my-dejanews.com
pe...@natscher.com wrote:
> Yes, Markus ... since WSP is cancelled, when can we see some of your newer
> scopes over here in the US in 1999? We're all still interested in how well
your
> scopes perform against similar designs. I know I am. All this talk about
> numbers ... to me, it all boils down to how well things operated in a side by
> side comparison wioth other top quality telescopes.
>
> Peter Natscher
> Belmont, CA
Peter ,
which Starparty you would recomment to me to visit? I am ready to visit total
3 of them.
I personly know now the very nice Stellafane, WSP, Texas and Riverside.
thanks for your recomments. Also I would like to know which telescopes all
would like to see for some comparations. Apos? Mak-Cass.?, Mak-Newt.? Dob?
which sizes ? which quality?
thanks for help
Markus
>
> Sue and Alan French wrote:
>
> > Markus,
> >
> > I guess that is good enough for me, but you still haven't explained why you
> > believe that AP demo scopes would be better than the production scopes.
> >
> > Too bad we won't get to see your scopes at WSP this year.
> >
> > Clear skies, Alan
>
>
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
lude...@my-dejanews.com
"Sue and Alan French" <sue_and_a...@msn.com> wrote:
> Markus,
>
> I guess that is good enough for me, but you still haven't explained why you
> believe that AP demo scopes would be better than the production scopes.
Alan , its just my own opinion. I think its normaly for most manufactors in
the world to show an prototype scope on an Starparty only after very critical
and strong tests has been made. I think it is also normaly for all
manufactors that not each scope will have the same level of controll at the
first demoscope. More I dont like to explain, is it enough for you ?
>
> Too bad we won't get to see your scopes at WSP this year.
I will visit therefore 2 or 3 other starpartys in the uS in 1999, which one? I
will hear the recomments of some friends in the USA.
very best wishes
Markus
>
> Clear skies, Alan
>
> lude...@my-dejanews.com wrote in message
> <71hig9$tp6$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
> >In article <#mwZstSB#GA.158@upnetnews03>,
> > "Sue and Alan French" <sue_and_a...@msn.com> wrote:
> >> lude...@my-dejanews.com wrote >
> >>
> >> >How many AP maks has been reported ? 1 pc custommade demo 8.2" Mak-Cass.
> >> >and 1 pc 9" Mak-Newt.
> >> >Please think: this are custommade scopes to test and show on starpartys.
> Do
> >> >you think, that each sold scope will have the same optical quality as
> the
> >> >demoscopes?
> >>
> >> Markus,
> >>
> >> I forgot to ask, but are you speculating because this is how APM does
> >> things? Are your demo scopes better than your production scopes?
> >
> >My 10" saw first light at Stellafane, because I received it only 1 day
> before
> >flying to USA.I have had no second one in stock to choose.I not believe to
> >any manufactors claim, even not the russian claims. Only after we made the
> >controll, we are shure about the quality. If you see my webside anybody can
> >order an individual made in germany interferometrical testreport for " his
> "
> >scope. For demo on starpartys, i take what i have. About Apos I must ask
> >mostly my customers , can I have it for Starpartys, because Aries have even
> >longer delay than AP. I would be happy, if I could have the possibility to
> >keep an extra high quality scope of size for ever , but my customers
> crying"
> >when i get my scope". Is that answere good enough for you Alan ? best
> wishes
> >Markus
lude...@my-dejanews.com
> >
>
> I guess what I don't understand is that if JG considers himself so superior
> to everyone on this newsgroup why he continues to participate. I would
think
> that he, Rich Anderson, and a couple of others would want to form their own
> newsgroup where they could proclaim their optical expertise to each other
> without having to deal with the 'insulting Americans' asking for evidence of
> this supposed expertise. -- Kevin Brown Burke, VA
Kevin, you say excactly what most are thinking : They dont like to hear the
thrue . Only because JG and Rich Anderson is saying whats going on really,
you attache them. Everybody who is expert in optics are smiling , when he
reads the quality claims of Apos and Newtonians in this newsgroup. Markus
lude...@my-dejanews.com
information to share regarding a
> recent-vintage A/P scope? If not, I suppose it doesn't hurt to probe, but
> you are wasting your valuable time, in my opinion.
>
> Todd G
Okay you got me now: I could read here in this thread that someone is saying
T.B. have the best 7.1 " , 2 or 3 times better than any other and that it have
1/20 wave. From the mouth of T.B. I heard it has "only 1/8 wave" , which is an
superlative result for an 7.1". Confirm to the guaranteed claims that is not
possible. What you saying now?
please dont be worry about, only because I tell you one time a little about my
backgroundknowledge.
Dont spread it, ask me privatly about more , if you like to know more
lude...@my-dejanews.com
> You have some good ideas, it is a shame to see you waste energy on this
> recent-vintage A/P scope? If not, I suppose it doesn't hurt to probe, but
> you are wasting your valuable time, in my opinion.
>
> Todd G
Todd, I dont think, we need to discuss it here on the newsgroup , because I
dont like any more fight with R.C. About result of startests made by many
here , I have my own opinion. About qualityclaims I can say only 1 thing for
which you can ask me for more detailed via private email: If an 6"F/12 made 3
years ago as the last sample is claimed with 98.4% and comes out in regular
test with 85% and big terrible downturned edge, I think I dont need to say
any more.Not only I am smilling about some guarantees , which even Zeiss
reached only for here 10% best scope all the total run and here it is claimed
to be done in each scope. The best ever Tested Takahashi in europe have had
1/9 wave and the even Zeiss reached only very very seldom the level of 1/8
wave or better. In this thread i see people saying, that 1/12 is not very
good . Todd really, that peole never saw in here live even 1/10, sorry, but
thats not just my opinion, thats are many confirmed tests. Harald Richard
Suiter tested this year an 6"F/8 Aries (which have had an testreportresult of
1/6 wavefront) and he said to my face after i asked him for his real not
honestly opinion , this is an absolute perfect lens. I think , I dont need to
ad no more word to that.
best wishes
Markus
P.S. I dont say, that such scopes are bad , i say only, that all that claims
wrong and if you give me the chance I will show it to you.
>
> >In article <363b6b6f.17150331@news>,
>
> >> His APOs have consistently high optical quality (I own
> >> one), why wouldn't his Maks?
> >does his Apos really have consistently high optical quality ? How many you
> >really saw ? what do you understand under high quality?
> >dont be worry about me, i only ask you some questions, okay?
> >>
>
JG
that is for sure.
But it isn't better that I consider myself to be. I just don't get any optical
design
insight from any one here, yet you all crticize me (not everyone, just the dumb,
rude Americans mostly). I said I can do my own optics, and it won't take much
to hit 1/6 or 1/8 optics, and I can get better than that, just by taking my time.
Why can't you see that is obvious?
I'll be happy to post my results, but I am very tired of stupid people like you
trying
to slam anyone who you don't happen to like. And when I slam back, I am told
I am the bad guy.
Well, screw you guys who complain. I have my optical test equipment, and my own
optical manufacturing equipment is being selected and/or designed.
You guys can't think of anything better to do than pat each other on the back for
the great scopes you all own. None of you know the first thing about building
such optics.
JGoss
bro...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> In article <toddg.747...@weatherman.com>,
> to...@weatherman.com (Todd Gross) wrote:
> > Actually JG, I am one of scientific method to a large degree, being a good
> > weatherman (no comments please). That is, I start with an assumption, in this
> > case A/P scopes of recent vintage are excellent, and wait to hear
> > contrary from ANY user.... including myself. It's not that hard to
> > comprehend. Anyone who knows how to star test will report back that his 4, 5,
> > 6" A/P is just plain excellent. Do you have something to share that would
> lead
> > me to believe otherwise? It doesn't hurt to probe and question, I am all for
> > it. More reports from knowledgeable users and star testers would be great.
> > But, why should Markus knock himself out on this topic? Shouldn't he be
> adding
> > something substantive or creating new scopes or something? Markus has been
> > largely responsible for bringing some great scopes to the States, let that
> > work go on!
> >
> > >Your only failing is to not ask enough questions. The insulting Americans on
> > >this
> > >list only understand 'name branding' and what 'experts' say. It is all in
> the
> > >culture,
> > >they are brainwashed from an early age. That is why many say so many silly
> > >things here, they don't know any better.
> >
> > >J. Goss
> >
> > >lude...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> >
> > >> In article <363b6b6f.17150331@news>,
> > >>
> > >> > His APOs have consistently high optical quality (I own
> > >> > one), why wouldn't his Maks?
> > >> does his Apos really have consistently high optical quality ? How many you
> > >> really saw ? what do you understand under high quality?
> > >> dont be worry about me, i only ask you some questions, okay?
> > >> >
> > >>
> > >> -----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
> > >> http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
> >
> >
>
> I guess what I don't understand is that if JG considers himself so superior
> to everyone on this newsgroup why he continues to participate. I would think
> that he, Rich Anderson, and a couple of others would want to form their own
> newsgroup where they could proclaim their optical expertise to each other
> without having to deal with the 'insulting Americans' asking for evidence of
> this supposed expertise. -- Kevin Brown Burke, VA
>
Brian Murphy
wavefront error:
" ...My 7.1", as earlier stated, has a measured wavefront
of 1/25 wave P-V. This corresponds to a Strehl ratio of .9975! Or to be
blunt about it, perfect, and only limited by seeing. ...
Sincerely,
Thomas M. Back "
lude...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> In article <toddg.746...@weatherman.com>,> topic. Have you any specific
> information to share regarding a
> > recent-vintage A/P scope? If not, I suppose it doesn't hurt to probe, but
> > you are wasting your valuable time, in my opinion.
> >
> > Todd G
>
> Okay you got me now: I could read here in this thread that someone is saying
> T.B. have the best 7.1 " , 2 or 3 times better than any other and that it have
> 1/20 wave. From the mouth of T.B. I heard it has "only 1/8 wave" , which is an
> superlative result for an 7.1". Confirm to the guaranteed claims that is not
> possible. What you saying now?
> please dont be worry about, only because I tell you one time a little about my
> backgroundknowledge.
> Dont spread it, ask me privatly about more , if you like to know more
> Markus
>
Todd Gross
>Todd, question to you : what is the best which could happens to the amateurs
>? answere: if manufactors have running an very big competition , who make the
>best telescope ! you agree?
Yes
>Thats whats going on at the moment. Roland like
>to be the best and I like to be the best with Aries, INTES and INTES MICRO
>too. Whats the result: new telescopes, improvements, and deluxeversions. What
>can customers ask more ? I think they must be very happy, that we have such
>an competition running each day. For me its a lot of fun and an big forcement
>to think each day about something new. best wishes Markus
interesting, yes Markus. Although I am not sure if that is who he is competing
against (maybe himself, or tak?)
Todd Gross
>1/6 wavefront) and he said to my face after i asked him for his real not
>honestly opinion , this is an absolute perfect lens. I think , I dont need to
>ad no more word to that.
>best wishes
>Markus
>P.S. I dont say, that such scopes are bad , i say only, that all that claims
>wrong and if you give me the chance I will show it to you.
okay
Todd Gross
Back's scope, so I think I know what you are getting at. Yes email me if you
want to tell me anything. As you said, competition is healthy
Todd Gross
>Well, screw you guys who complain. I have my optical test equipment, and my own
>optical manufacturing equipment is being selected and/or designed.
Actually, you all should stop bickering and talk more about stuff like the
above.. sounds like you are getting some neat optical test equipment,
that sounds like a LOT of fun. Wish I had some and knew how to use it!
TMBack
>Okay you got me now: I could read here in this thread
>that someone is saying T.B. have the best 7.1 " , 2 or 3
>times better than any other and that it have 1/20 wave.
>From the mouth of T.B. I heard it has "only 1/8 wave",
>which is an superlative result for an 7.1". Confirm to the
>guaranteed claims that is not possible. What you saying
>now?
>Markus
Markus,
Now that is not true. I never said to you or anyone
that my 7.1" Astro-Physics lens was "only 1/8 wave."
What I did and do say is that it is an honest 1/12 wave,
or about the limit of what I can detect in the star test
under the night sky. With a dark green filter (the proper
way to test apochromatic lenses), the test is near perfect.
It tested better yet in green light interferometry, and
in laboratory conditions, it may well be better than 1/12
wave P-V. Roland himself doesn't guarantee quality
higher than 1/12 wave, even if his measurements exceed
this value. (See his previous post on this subject).
You are right about one thing, any large optic that
is a true 1/8 wave P-V on the wavefront or better is
superlative.
Thomas Back
Chuck Gulker
Maks. He's a one man band compared to Roland's Astro-Physics. >>
Wouldn't it be neat if Peter joined forces with Astro-Physics to help
produce the finest amateur used Maks the world has ever seen?
Chuck Gulker
Maks? I think Roland can do that quite on his own, thank you. Thomas Back
>>
Don't disagree........to me, just thought it sounded like an interesting
event to think about.
Vahe Sahakian
> that my 7.1" Astro-Physics lens was "only 1/8 wave."
> What I did and do say is that it is an honest 1/12 wave,
> or about the limit of what I can detect in the star test
> under the night sky. With a dark green filter (the proper
> way to test apochromatic lenses), the test is near perfect.
> Thomas Back
Hi there,
Star test is very sensitive indeed and under good seeing it can probably
detect errors as small as 1/30th wave, but the problem with star test is
that it is qualitative and not quantitative, in another words it will
tell you that the optics under test have a certain problem but it is not
easy to put a number on it.
Perhaps there is a way to do a star test and arrive at a number with the
accuracy of an interferometry, if there is one I am eager to learn.
My 6.1"EDT produces near perfect views of planets, but short of sending
to an optical shop for interferometry, I know of no other way that I can
honestly verify its wavefront.
Beautiful skies,
Vahe
JG
enjoy the dark skies of Australia for the rest of our lives. We are planning
this as I write it... (;~>) Who will do the cooking, who will wash the
clothes, that hasn't been decided.
But we don't have to bring any AP scopes to get the best available optical
performance, that is a fact. [AP is very good, that is all] We will gladly
leave those for the rest of you to pine for and toll away for the rest of your
lives to pay for. Have fun!
It is amazing how much better AP scopes get once you own one!!!! But I'll
bet there are some Zeiss owners out there wondering what all the fuss is
about.
J. Goss
lude...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> In article <toddg.746...@weatherman.com>,> topic. Have you any specific
> information to share regarding a
> > recent-vintage A/P scope? If not, I suppose it doesn't hurt to probe, but
> > you are wasting your valuable time, in my opinion.
> >
> > Todd G
>
> Okay you got me now: I could read here in this thread that someone is saying
> T.B. have the best 7.1 " , 2 or 3 times better than any other and that it have
> 1/20 wave. From the mouth of T.B. I heard it has "only 1/8 wave" , which is an
> superlative result for an 7.1". Confirm to the guaranteed claims that is not
> possible. What you saying now?
Peter Natscher
Apart from your bringing some 'great' scopes to the US (most people haven't seen
any of these, yet), I have a few friendly questions:
I'd like to know about your background. Are you formally educated in optical
engineering? Are you currently making great telescopes, yourself? Or, are you only
selling telescopes. Roland, of Astro-Physics, is formally educated in optical and
mechanical engineering — he is curently designing and constructing great telescopes
and the mountings they ride on. How can you compare yourself to him? In this
thread, you talk as if you and Roland are accomplishing the same thing. Not so.
Peter Natscher
Belmont, CA
lude...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> In article <toddg.747...@weatherman.com>, to...@weatherman.com (Todd
> Gross) wrote:> me to believe otherwise? It doesn't hurt to probe and
> question, I am all for
>
> > it. More reports from knowledgeable users and star testers would be great.
> > But, why should Markus knock himself out on this topic? Shouldn't he be
> adding
> > something substantive or creating new scopes or something? Markus has been
> > largely responsible for bringing some great scopes to the States, let that
> > work go on!
>
> Todd, question to you : what is the best which could happens to the amateurs
> ? answere: if manufactors have running an very big competition , who make the
> best telescope ! you agree? Thats whats going on at the moment. Roland like
> to be the best and I like to be the best with Aries, INTES and INTES MICRO
> too. Whats the result: new telescopes, improvements, and deluxeversions. What
> can customers ask more ? I think they must be very happy, that we have such
> an competition running each day. For me its a lot of fun and an big forcement
> to think each day about something new. best wishes Markus
>
> >
> > >Your only failing is to not ask enough questions. The insulting Americans on
> > >this
> > >list only understand 'name branding' and what 'experts' say. It is all in
> the
> > >culture,
> > >they are brainwashed from an early age. That is why many say so many silly
> > >things here, they don't know any better.
> >
> > >J. Goss
> >
> > >lude...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> >
> > >> In article <363b6b6f.17150331@news>,
> > >>
> > >> > His APOs have consistently high optical quality (I own
> > >> > one), why wouldn't his Maks?
> > >> does his Apos really have consistently high optical quality ? How many you
> > >> really saw ? what do you understand under high quality?
> > >> dont be worry about me, i only ask you some questions, okay?
> > >> >
> > >>
JG
ways to do the star test quantitatively...how much will you pay for me
to do them???
I have worked on projects that had very similar requirements. And you
can be sure it will wind its way eventually to my optical testing "lab".
JGoss
Glenmore F. Wong
>
> Yes, folks, it is true. Markus, Rich, and I are in fact planning on eloping to
> enjoy the dark skies of Australia for the rest of our lives. We are planning
> this as I write it... (;~>) Who will do the cooking, who will wash the
> clothes, that hasn't been decided.
> J. Goss
>
How soon?
glenmore
JG
in something else entirely from optical or mechanical engineering. He learned
his optics thru OJT...at a very respectable company, of course. :-)
Markus has access to optical test facilities that Roland can only dream about. Hence
the "opionionated" response from Markus - he can get top rung optical analyses
performed in Germany and Russia.
But let's not let details get in the way of a little name calling and harrasment. I
always
say, "Don't criticize others just because you don't understand what they are saying.
Do it because you don't happen to like them!"
The truth shall set you free.......
JGoss
JG
JG
TMBack
>Wouldn't it be neat if Peter joined forces with Astro-
>Physics to help produce the finest amateur used Maks
>the world has ever seen?
Why would Peter have to join forces with Astro-
Physics to make the finest Maks? I think Roland can
do that quite on his own, thank you. BTW, did you sell
your 5.1" EDT yet, Chuck?
Thomas Back
Starvick
>own
>optical manufacturing equipment is being selected and/or designed.
>
>You guys can't think of anything better to do than pat each other on the back
>for
>the great scopes you all own. None of you know the first thing about
>building
>such optics.
>
>JGoss
>
>Well, screw you guys
>the dumb,
>rude Americans mostly
>JGoss
The Goose has spoken so there, take that you....you....you bad guys! And that
goes for you dumb Americans Too!! ;-) And futhermore there will be no patting
on the backs either. The Gooses gander is up and he is heading South.
Jeff V. P.S. I am sorry, I have been trying to refrain, I just cant help
myself. Personaly I really feel you guys are great "I love ya guys".
Starvick
>own
>>optical manufacturing equipment is being selected and/or designed.
>
>Actually, you all should stop bickering and talk more about stuff like the
>above.. sounds like you are getting some neat optical test equipment,
>that sounds like a LOT of fun. Wish I had some and knew how to use it!
Todd, you are too kind. Jeff V.