Reg. Development of Sanskrit as programming language

[prabhatr...@gmail.com]

We are the org engaged in development and popularization of Sanskrit language across the State i.e.M.P.
We want to enhance the speed of Research and development in the field of Sanskrit as programming language.
We are also planning to have a national workshop/seminar/conference on the same topic at Bhopal M.P.

Prabhat R.Tiwari

[Madhva Raj]

namasthey,

                    very good idea sir, i will help you in every regard.

                      contact me for help. my phone number is 9885833373

thanks

madhu

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[akshaysr...@gmail.com]

"Sanskrit as programming language."

It's really not a good idea to push this idea.
1. The sentence is incorrect in the broad general sense.
2. Machines require ontological groundings.
3. With this constraint, any Programming language is not 'Sanskrit' anymore.
    (As a corollary, Computer languages are not 'English', either).
4. At this point, you'll end up with a typical programming language with terms in Nagari.
5. This is exercise is effectively worthless. It achieves nothing, and will give material
    for those inimical to Indic thought, to make fun of it and ultimately dismiss it.

It might be more sensible to educate people on the ongoing 'English apartheid' in the country,
and as to why Hindi-based (in M.P) higher education is necessary.

[Shreevatsa R]

I agree with Akshay; I've seen this so many times that I've given up trying to advise someone when they talk of "Sanskrit as a programming language". Hopefully if they go far along on the path they'll learn something for themselves and come to the same conclusion, without the annoyance of someone trying to dissuade them from what no doubt consider a worthy pursuit. (And if they do come to a different conclusion and actually end up developing something useful or interesting, that's good too.)

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[ಶ್ರೀನಿವಾಸ ಅಕ್ಷಯ ಐಯ್ಯಂಗಾರ್ / Akshay Srinivasan]

(Apologies. This will get slightly political, and rather meta.)

I don't know; isn't that rather inefficient ? I'm of the opinion that these issues stem from a 'fatalistic logic of the unassailabe position of English' [1].
The public has been fooled into playing a language game, where the dialectic stems on proving the 'superiority' of Indic tradition before state patronage can
be bestowed on them (regardless of taxpayer opinion). This is Catch-22 situation and thus we need a 'hero'; this can only be done by making exaggerated claims.[4]

It is important that effort be put into renegotiating the dialectic, and not into winning it (which requires solving AGI).

This issue cripples childen's minds, destroys people's livelihoods & traditions, and generally sustains a horrible apartheid regime [5].
It's important that we walk before we go lightspeed. Takshashila/Nalanda, were supported by surrounding villages after all.

Isn't there a policy movement towards this ? No.

- There are 'popular' anti-Hindi movements, but those are actually pro-English movements in pro-Tamil/Kannada/Marathi/... clothing.
- The neo-liberal 'left' (self-badged) would much rather see through apocalypse than support anything in this spectrum.
- The ostensible 'nationalists' are not too keen on touching this either because it affects their donors, and more importantly
the power structures they cling to [2].

The likes of K Vijayaraghavan have recently come out in favor of this position [3]. However, people should be made aware that
moving away from English is going to be better economically in the long run. This is no easy task, and it can't be done with
such glorification. Sankrant's book was written for precisely this task; sitting in Tokyo it's astonishing that this even needs
justification (but I can trace my own journey, so it's also sad).

There is also a deeper issue. Having digested some of S N Balagangadhara's [6] work, it is apparent that playing the English language
game also makes us rather European - since the colonized only get to make up epistemologies to fit the alien calculus. However, unlike
Europeans, we are emburdened a lot more data, and fitting that to the non-sensical calculus ('theories') requires tweaking reality itself,
often with horrible consequences. [6]

[1] From a retelling of the fate of our African cousins, in 'Decolonizing the Mind' - Ngugi wa Thiong'o
[2] https://koenraadelst.blogspot.com/2015/02/the-language-question.html
[3] https://www.hindustantimes.com/analysis/india-must-shed-intellectual-colonialism-to-excel-in-science-and-technology/story-wfbhX71Evf9ilqqUKkjAQL.html
[4] 'Superiority' is judged as being suitable for capitalist exploitation. I should note that, this has happened before (as noted by Dharampal/Rajiv Malhotra),
but this is not concomitant with the Indic pool being enriched (often, its the contrary).
[5] Sankrant Sanu's work actually led me down this path. https://www.prabhatbooks.com/angreji-madhyam-ka-bhramjaal.htm
[6] This happens in Africa too.

On Fri, 04 May 2018 02:50:58 +0900,
Shreevatsa R wrote:
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[विश्वासो वासुकिजः (Vishvas Vasuki)]

(I think that a brief socio-cultural digression is ok here given its context in a persistent sanskrit programming issue.)

"I don't know; isn't that rather inefficient ?" -> I don't think it can (or need) be helped. Or perhaps, one can do as you did and make one small note and forget about those not interested in listening.

PS: English is a very excellent choice as a SECOND or THIRD language (as may be seen among Japanese and Chinese too) - it's position as a vector of science and technology is indeed rather in-assailable.

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[ಶ್ರೀನಿವಾಸ ಅಕ್ಷಯ ಐಯ್ಯಂಗಾರ್ / Akshay Srinivasan]

On Fri, 04 May 2018 13:11:20 +0900,
विश्वासो वासुकिजः (Vishvas Vasuki) wrote:
>
> [1 <text/plain; UTF-8 (quoted-printable)>]
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> (I think that a brief socio-cultural digression is ok
> here given its context in a persistent sanskrit
> programming issue.)
>
> "I don't know; isn't that rather inefficient ?" -> I
> don't think it can (or need) be helped. Or perhaps,
> one can do as you did and make one small note and
> forget about those not interested in listening.
>
> PS: English is a very excellent choice as a SECOND or
> THIRD language (as may be seen among Japanese and
> Chinese too) - it's position as a vector of science
> and technology is indeed rather in-assailable.

Few people in Japan/China speak English; this has nothing to do with their English education. It is due to the fact that it has little practical value for the typical citizen (which is as it should be), and it's not a medium for secondary or higher education. There is not a chokehold: no damming of saraswati if you will.

As for science, you're kind of right. However, English is more a vehicle for trasmission, than a basis for thought itself. Notably, it's not until grad-school that coursework turns (partly) to English, and this too is only true of certain fields like Computer Science. Medicine etc. all remain in Japanese. The same story is repeated all over Europe.

It should also be noted that well-acclaimed work on Information Geometry (S. Amari), Differential Geometry (S. Kobayashi, K. Nomizu) etc. were all originally done in Japanese before being translated. More recently, early work at Preferred Networks too was all in Japanese (incl. documentation/code comments). This is also true of other codebases from MSI (NTTs), and elsewhere. This has issues with marketing, but not really technical ones.

I'm given to understand that this is also the case in China/HK esp. now with Baidu/Tencent/TuSimple/Sensetime/DJI... The working language in these companies is not English, and neither is it the case in Suzuki/Toyota/Yamaha/Mazda/Honda.

English is overrated TBH; fluency does affect the rate at which ideas diffuse, but this also has the concomitant benefit of decreasing the infant mortality rates of competing ideas.

In India we're well on the other side of (the conquistador side) of the spectrum.

> >  Â> >     It's really not a good idea to push this

> idea.
> >     1. The sentence is incorrect in the broad
> general sense.
> >     2. Machines require ontological groundings.
> >     3. With this constraint, any Programming
> language is not 'Sanskrit' anymore.
> >         (As a corollary, Computer languages are
> not 'English', either).
> >     4. At this point, you'll end up with a
> typical programming language with terms in
> Nagari.
> >     5. This is exercise is effectively
> worthless. It achieves nothing, and will give
> material
> >         for those inimical to Indic thought, to
> make fun of it and ultimately dismiss it.

> >  Â> >     It might be more sensible to educate people

> on the ongoing 'English apartheid' in the
> country,
> >     and as to why Hindi-based (in M.P) higher
> education is necessary.

> >  Â> >     --

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> "sanskrit-programmers" group.
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>

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[Vasu Srinivasan]

I tend to agree with this thought from my first hand experience. All my grad/pg education was in a foreign language (Russian) - math, science, chem, bio etc. CompSci was only a bit of exception, where more english words were used transliterated. Many of my colleagues did as good as the native Russians, despite the language barrier. A good testament to this fact is some of the delightful physics/math problem books are available by Russian authors (Irodov etc). It did not occur to me until much later when I learnt Sanskritam (which incidentally has quite a few common with Russian roots and grammar), that if I could learn higher sciences in my fifth language (literally) and do well, I could have learnt it much better in my mother tongue itself.

Many professors I have met from Europe too went thru higher sciences in their native languages. No opinions on whether English is overrated, but English does play a very important part as a communication language.

(Sorry for deviating further from the original thread).

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[ಶ್ರೀನಿವಾಸ ಅಕ್ಷಯ ಐಯ್ಯಂಗಾರ್ / Akshay Srinivasan]

There is not an argument in the previous post worth countering.

I will merely re-state my position in predicate form, and note explicitly that anything
inferred from these is dependent on the conditioning of the inferrer.

- Is English the vehicle through which great deal knowledge can be accessed ?

Undeniably, yes, and perhaps, the best one at that.

- Are we similar to computers, where languages can be 'ported' easily.

No.

- Is it difficult to learn languages.

Yes. It's a long trek towards achieving fluency.

- Should education be mediated through English for industrial/material/scientific success ?

No.

- Are Sanskrit and other Indian languages special ?

For me, yes. For my co-patriots, I imagine yes, because that's what they have most experience in,
and that's where models/theories of their part of the world makes sense.

- Is English fluency (over and above, skills in regional languages) a pre-requisite in India, for,
i) access to higher education and employment in public/private sectors.

Yes.

- Should a state (a democratic one no less) severely disadvantage non-English speakers ?

No.

- Has this state of affairs changed from the colonial times ?

No; they have gotten worse.

- Is this par for course in developed nations ?

No. Not in Europe, East Asia nor in the US.

- Does pursuing a scorched earth policy whereby local traditions/languages get destroyed
and replaced with alien far off ones, benefit the country ?

No. Sankrant's book has the empirical evidence.

- Does any of this rest on 'superiority/inferiority', 'tradition', 'colonialism', and assorted sloganeering ?
Does any of this have anything to do with 'Sanskrit', 'programming', 'India' etc ?

No.

On Sun, 06 May 2018 16:15:04 +0900,
Sudarshan T N wrote:
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> Given that we already have a meta perspective in this thread ... Just want to add a few additional perspectives.
> imho - The meta perspectives are the most important btw .
>
> Do we want to amoralise Sanskrit usage? Sanskrit is a carrier of Sanskriti..
> Many perspectives  in this thread seem to  assume that "science" is a superior approach to "sanskriti".
> Science is amoral and over time tends toward immoral - there is no moral  or ethical component in Science. This has something to do with the origins of  modern
> science - in antagonistic evolution - with religion as practiced /evolved in the West.


> Sanskrit and Sanskrit never evolved nor operated under such duress. Sanskrit is embedded in the sanskriti cultural matrix.
>
> Does using Sanskrit to enable p*rn , gambling , drugs ,and various similar portals valid usage of Sanskrit ?

> What is the group's position (if any) on any of this -
> do we want to take the brainwashed colonized position that "science" is devoid of morality and is thus superior or the postmodern position that there is nothing
> called morality or ethics and everything is relative? Is this not a critical component to discuss when discussing future usage of Sanskrit ?
>
> As to English or any language X being superior / inferior - it is all about the USAGE it is put to. As to regional languages being better ..again it is about the
> usage it is put to. More dastardly crimes are committed by regional language speakers than english speakers in many parts of the country and vice versa in other
> parts of the world.
> Any absolute comment on "language" influencing "purushartha" is pointless.Yes English does come with eurocentric baggage but the hundreds of thousands in the
> ISKCON sampradaya who practice santana dharma in the world's languages are testament to the fact that language is not a limiting factor in the pursuit of dharma.
>
> Definitely Sanskrit .. yes .. simply because it is the primary language of purushartha.
>
> What do we think (a sanskrit modeling /programming ecosystem)  Software and related Information Systems enable (for dharma) ?
> What do we want to use Sanskrit for in such Systems - will  it be an accelerator of dharma or just another fanciful adharma enabler ?
>
> Engaging with these questions is probably relevant when we think of positioning / developing "Sanskrit" as a future thought and modeling ecosystem.
>
> imo -  The general jingoism and chest thumping , parochial pride etc are irrelevant in the long run.They have their short term uses in nation building , enabling a
> nation's grand narrative , self-pride etc. not denying it. The crucial aspect is "dharma". Any discussion or efforts which sidestep this crucial aspect will only
> be betraying the long term cause (sanatana)
>
> -
> सुदर्श�¤>