Use of तत्रापि

[valerio virgini]

Dear members,

in Upadeśāmṛta of Rūpa Gosvāmī there is a verse with the use of adverbs  तत्रापि.


वैकुण्ठाज्जनितो वरा मधुपुरी तत्रापि रासोत्सवाद्
वृन्दारण्यमुदारपाणिरमणात्तत्रापि गोवर्धनः ।
राधाकुन्डमिहापि गोकुलापतेः प्रेमामृताप्लावनात्
कुर्यादस्य विराजतो गिरितटे सेवां विवेकी न् कः ॥९॥

The translation is the following:


Because Śrī Kṛṣṇa appeared there, Mathurā is considered to
be spiritually superior to Vaikuṇṭha. Greater than Mathurā
is the forest of Vṛndāvana because this was where the
rāsa-līlā pastimes of the Lord took place. Govardhana Hill
is considered to be superior to Vṛndāvana becauseKṛṣṇa
performed wonderful pastimes there and raised it with His
hand. However, Rādhā-kuṇḍa is superior to Govardhana
because it is brimming with the nectar of divine love for
the Lord of Gokula. Which intelligent person will not
render service to this place which is situated at the foot of
Govardhana?

I do not understand the function of these adverbs.


I would have translated "even in that place," believing Vṛmdāvana, Govardhana and Radhakunda the same level.

Can someone enlighten me?

Thanks

Valerio

[Hnbhat B.R.]

Why should you consider them at the same level, when the poet considers the one is superior to others gradually?  

 

Can someone enlighten me?

Thanks

Valerio

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[Hnbhat B.R.]

I would have translated "even in that place," believing Vṛmdāvana, Govardhana and Radhakunda the same level.

Why should you consider them at the same level, when the poet considers the one is superior to others gradually?  

 

I don't have any objection if you beilieve so. But I believe it is the same position in this verse:

काव्येषु नाटकं रम्यं तत्र रम्या शकुन्तला। 

तत्रापि च चतुर्थोऽङ्कस्तत्र श्लोकचतुष्टयम्।।

You can simply classify all the four gradually mentioned in the first class Kavya is beautiful. If you use simple commonsense, there is no need of mentioning each separately, as it does not worth mentioning individually. And it simply means the things mentioned, worth mentioning among the grades below and itself separates from the one below and so on. Either it has to be writing nonsense, without anything, to repeat the components, separately. That is how to understand the poetry to understand the intention of the poet and not just the dictonary meaning which will lead you nowhere.

[valerio virgini]

Dear dr. Bhat

My intention is not dispute the translation that comes from the parampara. That is surely right.

Being inexperienced in Sanskrit, I do not know if the gradual expressed by the poet, is grammatically identifiable; without doubt?

Or, if from a point of view only the grammatical, doubt may exist,
and understanding of gradualism is due to the deep understanding of the poetic dimension.?


I agree with you that you do not appreciate poetry with grammar and dictionary, but grammar and dictionary should be the base.

thanks

valerio

[Hnbhat B.R.]

On Thu, Jul 24, 2014 at 3:11 PM, valerio virgini <valerio...@gmail.com> wrote:

Dear dr. Bhat

My intention is not dispute the translation that comes from the parampara. That is surely right.

Being inexperienced in Sanskrit, I do not know if the gradual expressed by the poet, is grammatically identifiable; without doubt?

Or, if from a point of view only the grammatical, doubt may exist,
and understanding of gradualism is due to the deep understanding of the poetic dimension.?


I agree with you that you do not appreciate poetry with grammar and dictionary, but grammar and dictionary should be the base.

The requirement for understanding the poetry is given by the great connossiur of poetry, who extended the maxim "ध्वनिः शब्दः" a grammatical concept to pervade whole of poetry into a great sentence:

काव्यस्यात्मा स एवार्थस्तथा चादिकवेः पुरा ।

क्रौञ्च-द्वन्द्व-वियोगोत्थः शोकः श्लोकत्वमागतः । । ध्व्क्_१.५ । ।

शब्दार्थ-शासन-ज्ञान-मात्रेणैव न वेद्यते । 

वेद्यते स तु काव्यार्थ-तत्त्वज्ञैरेव केवलम् । । ध्व्क्_१.७ ।

Your concept of doubt, guess etc. also find place in poetry as figures of speech: 

सन्देहालंकारः (doubt), विभावनालंकारः (guess) and not only what is beyond doubt by other standards. Attesting with reasoning also find place, as काव्यार्थापत्ति, which is in other cases, becomes a means of attestation of a given fact. अर्थापत्तिप्रमाण.

This is just a guide line to the differenciation of poetical language plus poetic convention. And there is nothing against grammar, but only it lies beyond what words can convey by lexicons and grammar. This the plain reply to your doubts expressed recently. I have given another example of the same structure, which distinguishes the drama Shakuntala, from other plays, and the particular four verses. The identification of the four verses, is attempted in this thread, but not beyond doubt (according to you):

https://groups.google.com/d/msg/samskrita/FQe45juQE6A/mKdo6h4brAUJ

 

[Hnbhat B.R.]

One more analysis and discussion of poetical language and grammar in this thread:

https://groups.google.com/d/msg/samskrita/2cCpM1Vh2-0/0nfDIzo1ckwJ

[G S S Murthy]

In तत्रापि, तत्र refers to what precedes it in the prose order and that provides for उत्तरोत्तर-अतिशयित्त्वम्. This is how I look at it.

Regards,

Murthy 

On Thu, Jul 24, 2014 at 4:32 PM, Hnbhat B.R. <hnbh...@gmail.com> wrote:

One more analysis and discussion of poetical language and grammar in this thread:

https://groups.google.com/d/msg/samskrita/2cCpM1Vh2-0/0nfDIzo1ckwJ

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[Rajam Srinivasan]

Whether or not one understands the adverbs or whatever, the poem is so lovely, that one can just keep repeating it and enjoy the expansion of love in one's heart for Radha-Krishna:))

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Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2014 09:07:27 +0200
Subject: [Samskrita] Use of तत्रापि
From: valerio...@gmail.com
To: sams...@googlegroups.com