Quoted phrase: is this in Sanskrit, or Hindi, or Prakrit?

[b.rupp...@gmail.com]

Friends,

I am in need of verifying a quote attributed, in popular works, to the Buddha. Can anyone help?

The phrase in popular sources is shown as 'Koi paraga' or 'Koiparaga.'  It gets translated as "Is there anyone for the Other Shore?," with the Buddha as orator, as a supreme boatman. 

I am supposing this would be written as को ई पारग (ko ī pāraga) . But who knows? 

The grammar escapes me. Also, I can't identify the language. Not Pali, nor Sanskrit? 

Thanks in advance,

Brian 

[Taff Rivers]

Brian,

   A reality check, reveals that poetic license has been taken by a group of (English) Christian folk singers from Norfolk, UK.

Koi is a Japanese carp and Paraga is a beach in Greece, but I think something got lost in the translation.

You don't say what those 'popular sources' of yours, are, but:

    http://www.koiparaga.co.uk/

Koi Paraga, translated as 'Anyone for the Other Shore?', are a contemporary folk quartet, crafting songs of deep thought and heartfelt sincerity. A singer-songwriter, virtuoso guitarist, double bassist and vocal gymnast-cum-percussionist have joined forces in search of a new shore and invite you on their journey.

Anyway, you can always email the singer-songwriter person and ask him who did the 'translation'.

A search reveals that much the same assumption regarding origin, was asked in a (Christian) religious group, here in the UK, over ten years back.

Regards,

  Taff Rivers

[Sunder Hattangadi]

It is in Pali language (info. in att.)

[b.rupp...@gmail.com]

Sunder, thanks so much. The Kāraṇḍavyūha  is precisely what I had hoped to locate. 

Taff Rivers, also thanks. I was aware of the song and the group. My source however was a well-known spiritual teacher and writer.

Brian

[Taff Rivers]

Brian,

 As it turns out, in both its literal and allegorical senses, the phrase ko pāraga, is also to be found in classical Saṃskṛta.

From the Monier-Williams:

ko, from ka.
  ka is often connected with a demonstrative pron. (e.g. ko_'yam_āyāti, who comes here?)
  page 240, col 2.

pāraga
    •  mf(ā)n. going to the opposite shore, crossing over, MBh. R.
  page 619, col 2.

Taff Rivers.

  Nobody has ever come back from that opposite shore to tell the tale.

[Brian Ruppenthal]

Taff and all,

Thanks again. 

I sort of knew of this too, but was confused on finding an odd sandhi treatment. 

Visarga before the consonant (p in this case) should remain unchanged, right?

https://ubcsanskrit.ca/lesson3/sandhicharts.html#visarga

I think I have noticed, though, that Pali tends to 'overuse' the 'o' ending, as it were, creating a sandhi effect when none would happen in Sanskrit. so this phrase is perhaps in Pali?

Brian

On Tue, Sep 5, 2017 at 2:03 AM, Taff Rivers <eddie...@gmail.com> wrote:

Brian,

  It turns out that the phrase itself is also classical Saṃskṛta.

I quote from the Monier-Williams lexicon, regarding ko and pāraga.

Ko from ka.
ka is often connected with a demonstrative pron. (e.g. ko_'yam_āyāti, who comes here?) or with the potential (e.g. ko_hariṃ_nindet, who will blame Hari?)

On Tuesday, September 5, 2017 at 5:17:28 AM UTC+1, b.rupp...@gmail.com wrote:

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[Taff Rivers]

Brian,

  Your speculation is correct, as Sunder confirms.

Who is for the other shore? in the spiritual sense, is Pali not Saṃskṛta.

Regards,

Taff,

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[Brian Ruppenthal]

Taff and all, if you do not mind further fuss about this particular quote...

I also found myself surprised by a lack of ending on the word  pāraga.  In the accusative case, 'to the Other Shore,' we'd expect  pāragam.  In the dative, 'for the Other Shore,'  pāragāya. 

Do you have any guesses, or insights perhaps, on that matter? Is this somehow a non-issue?

Brian

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[Taff Rivers]

Brian,

  Pali, is a generic term for vernacular Indic languages. 
Even the spelling of the name is open to speculation.

As to whether Pali was a specific language is not known. There is no substantiated work of Pali grammar.
Any such relationship to Saṃskṛta, classical or Vedic, is pure speculation.

Anyway, the complete phrase as reported in the Latin script, is linguistically of the reflexive kind, not the accusative.

What's more, Buddhism is a religion, and has, terminology rather than grammar.

As such, it is always subject to the influence of the various prevailing authorities' taking into account their moral or political sensitivities.

As an example from Christianity, where the earliest writings of Jesus's own brother makes no references to either virgin birth or crucifixion.
The original biblical texts simply referring to a 'maiden' or 'unmarried woman'.

Hardly a non-issue, given the subject matter!

Taff Rivers

[Hnbhat B.R.]

Why not take it a Hindi phrase which would fit into the given English translation. In Devanagari,  कोइ पारग  any body crossing over the other shore ? Instead of thrusting it into Pali, it would be better. Any how I do not Pali, but know Hindi.

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[Brian Ruppenthal]

Dr. Bhat, thanks also for your view on this. 

I did have the idea that this might be in Hindi. Google Translate helped confirm the possibility for me. 

Yet the scripture seems to exist in Sanskrit -- though not in Pali, that I have found at least -- in a collection in Nepal:

http://cudl.lib.cam.ac.uk/view/MS-ADD-01330/1

And I am aware that texts got translated from Pali to Sanskrit. Perhaps that happened here. 

Does anyone know how one might access the actual text of the  Kāraṇḍavyūha?

Brian

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[Irene Galstian]

BL has a scanned manuscript in Endangered Archive series:

http://eap.bl.uk/database/overview_item.a4d?catId=231298;r=27624

[Taff Rivers]

Dr,

   Your suggestion to retro fit one language upon another, is but to mask the search for truth of the material kind. Akin to rewriting history!

What is needed here, as the basis for discussion (or speculation!) is an actual text scan of the Buddhist sūtra, Kāraṇḍavyūha, in all its manuscriptal glory.

In my opinion, of much more historical relevance than Greek mythologies of siren ladies, is that the Kāraṇḍavyūha, contains the earliest manuscriptal occurrence of the mantra Om Mani Padme Hum.

A review of the original material, by those who know these things, as opp. to the multitudes that but know of them, is what would be the real gem, value wise.

Regards,

Taff Rivers


 

[Irene Galstian]

Brian,

Please have a look here:

http://prajnaquest.fr/blog/sanskrit-texts-3/sanskrit-buddhist-texts/

Kind regards,

Irene

[Taff Rivers]

Brian,

==>Does anyone know how one might access the actual text of the  Kāraṇḍavyūha?<==

There is no such thing as an 'actual text of the Kāraṇḍavyūha'.

For a good old fashioned reality check, look no further that here:   https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/P%C4%81li_Canon#The_earliest_books_of_the_Pali_Canon
Time, is the enemy of us all.

   Scroll down to Texts - Manuscripts

There you will discover:
  "The climate of Theravāda countries is not conducive to the survival of manuscripts. Apart from brief quotations in inscriptions and a two-page fragment from the eighth or ninth century found in Nepal, the oldest manuscripts known are from late in the fifteenth century,[53] and there is not very much from before the eighteenth.[54]"

Even so, you will need a large bookcase, not to mention a fat wallet. There were on-line versions, but copyright laws prevailed...

Taff Rivers,

R & D person, retd.

On Wednesday, September 6, 2017 at 6:55:46 PM UTC+1, Brian Ruppenthal wrote:

Dr. Bhat, thanks also for your view on this. 

I did have the idea that this might be in Hindi. Google Translate helped confirm the possibility for me. 

Yet the scripture seems to exist in Sanskrit -- though not in Pali, that I have found at least -- in a collection in Nepal:

http://cudl.lib.cam.ac.uk/view/MS-ADD-01330/1

And I am aware that texts got translated from Pali to Sanskrit. Perhaps that happened here. 

Brian

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[Brian Ruppenthal]

Irene, and anyone else interested...

Most interesting to have some version of the Kāraṇḍavyūha text.  

It would take some time to actually locate anything in it of course. I gave it a first cursory try, but then gave up.  

One doubts there will be an electronic version anywhere available. And producing such a version myself would take quite a while. 

I also noticed that some of the text in it is in, I think, Old Bengali font? -- and language too I suppose.

Anyway, thanks for providing this interesting link.

Brian 

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