Regarding the conjugation of root खव् khav

[RamanaMurthy Bathala]

Dear Sir,

         Following is from : A PRACTICAL GRAMMAR OF THE SANSKRIT LANGUAGE- Fourth Edition-MONIER WILLIAMS – Page No. 168.

362. खव् khav, 'to appear as a spectre,' is said to make its stems खौना khaunā, खौनी khaunī, and खौन् khaun.

 

  The following is from screenshot is from : BRIHAD DHATURUPAVALI-1924-TR KRISHNACHARYA Page No.411

 

Then tried the online verb-form gernerator form the website:

http://scl.samsaadhanii.in/

 

लट्
	एकवचनम्	द्विवचनम्	बहुवचनम्
प्रथमपुरुषः	खव्नाति	खव्नीतः	खनन्ति
मध्यमपुरुषः	खव्नासि	खव्नीथः	खव्नीथ
उत्तमपुरुषः	खव्नामि	खव्नीवः	खव्नीमः

 

I did not get the forms mentioned in the two text books.

Can scholars please confirm whether the verb forms generated by the tools on the website are correct?

 

Regards

Ramana murthy

 

[KN.Ramesh]

Please check here:

http://tdil-dc.in/san/skt_gen/generators.html

परस्मैपदी	आत्मनेपदी

लट् एकवचनम् द्विवचनम् बहुवचनम्

प्रथमपुरुषः खच्ञाति/खौनाति खच्ञीतः/खौनीतः खच्खञ्न्ति/खौनन्ति मध्यमपुरुषः खच्ञासि/खौनासि खच्ञीथः/खौनीथः खच्ञीथ/खौनीथ उत्तमपुरुषः खच्ञामि/खौनामि खच्ञीवः/खौनीवः खच्ञीमः/खौनीमः लिट्

एकवचनम् द्विवचनम् बहुवचनम्

प्रथमपुरुषः चखाच चखचतुः चखचुः मध्यमपुरुषः चखचिथ चखचथुः चखच उत्तमपुरुषः चखच/चखाच चखचिव चखचिम लुट्

एकवचनम् द्विवचनम् बहुवचनम्

प्रथमपुरुषः खचिता खचितारौ खचितारः मध्यमपुरुषः खचितासि खचितास्थः खचितास्थ उत्तमपुरुषः खचितास्मि खचितास्वः खचितास्मः लृट्

एकवचनम् द्विवचनम् बहुवचनम्

प्रथमपुरुषः खचिष्यति खचिष्यतः खचिष्यन्ति मध्यमपुरुषः खचिष्यसि खचिष्यथः खचिष्यथ उत्तमपुरुषः खचिष्यामि खचिष्यावः खचिष्यामः लोट्

एकवचनम् द्विवचनम् बहुवचनम्

प्रथमपुरुषः खच्ञातु/खौनातु खच्ञीताम्/खौनीताम् खच्खञ्न्तु/खौनन्तु मध्यमपुरुषः खच्ञीहि/खौनीहि खच्ञीतम्/खौनीतम् खच्ञीत/खौनीत उत्तमपुरुषः खच्ञानि/खौनानि खच्ञीव/खौनीव खच्ञीम/खौनीम लङ्

एकवचनम् द्विवचनम् बहुवचनम्

प्रथमपुरुषः अखच्ञात्/अखौनात् अखच्ञीताम्/अखौनीताम् अखच्खञ्न्/अखौनन् मध्यमपुरुषः अखच्ञाः/अखौनाः अखच्ञीतम्/अखौनीतम् अखच्ञीत/अखौनीत उत्तमपुरुषः अखच्ञाम्/अखौनाम् अखच्ञीव/अखौनीव अखच्ञीम/अखौनीम विधिलिङ्

एकवचनम् द्विवचनम् बहुवचनम्

प्रथमपुरुषः खच्ञीयात्/खौनीयात् खच्ञीयाताम्/खौनीयाताम् खच्ञीयुः/खौनीयुः मध्यमपुरुषः खच्ञीयाः/खौनीयाः खच्ञीयातम्/खौनीयातम् खच्ञीयात/खौनीयात उत्तमपुरुषः खच्ञीयाम्/खौनीयाम् खच्ञीयाव/खौनीयाव खच्ञीयाम/खौनीयाम आशीर्लिङ्

एकवचनम् द्विवचनम् बहुवचनम्

प्रथमपुरुषः खच्यात् खच्यास्ताम् खच्यासुः मध्यमपुरुषः खच्याः खच्यास्तम् खच्यास्त उत्तमपुरुषः खच्यासम् खच्यास्व खच्यास्म लुङ्

एकवचनम् द्विवचनम् बहुवचनम्

प्रथमपुरुषः अखाचीत् अखाचिष्टाम् अखाचिषुः मध्यमपुरुषः अखाचीः अखाचिष्टम् अखाचिष्ट उत्तमपुरुषः अखाचिषम् अखाचिष्व अखाचिष्म लृङ्

एकवचनम् द्विवचनम् बहुवचनम्

प्रथमपुरुषः - - - मध्यमपुरुषः - - - उत्तमपुरुषः - - -

Select kartari & select 

[RamanaMurthy Bathala]

Dear Sir,

Thanks for the reply.

The website : http://tdil-dc.in/san/skt_gen/generators.html is giving the correct forms.

But the web site : scl.samsaadhanii.in is not giving the correct forms. This is a reputed website.

Regards

Ramana Murthy

Thanks for the reply. 

On Sunday, 4 February 2018 14:39:52 UTC+5:30, RamanaMurthy Bathala wrote:

[Taff Rivers]

Ramana murthy,

  Yes, but that site is not so much faulty as unfinished. As is explained in its scl_help.pdf.

There you will also learn that it's facilities are derived from the well established and well maintained http://sanskrit.inria.fr/index.en.html

I asssume that you wish to employ a Grammar facility rathert than simply reporting a 'faulty' one.

If so, access Grammar from inria's menu bar at the bottom of the screen, but do avail yourself of Help on that menu bar to understand how to use that Grammar facility!

Best,

Taff Rivers.

[Amba Kulkarni]

Dear Ramana Murthy and Ramesh,

Thank you very much for bringing this to my notice.

Yes, as you have noticed the  http://tdil-dc.in/san/skt_gen/generators.html  website, which hosts the old version (2013)
 of my tools produces correct forms while the latest version on http://scl.samsaadhanii.in produces the wrong forms.

And the reason behind this change is at some point Dhaval Patel cross checked the forms generated by my system with that of his, and provided me a file with list of corrections.
And in this process wrong forms generated by his system replaced my old correct forms.
https://www.sanskritworld.in/sanskrittool/SanskritVerb/panini.php?first=%E0%A4%96%E0%A4%B5%E0%A4%81&upasarga=&lakAra=law&sanAdi=&tran=SLP1&vAcya=kartR&frontend=1&jsonmode=0&cond11=2&number=09.0068&removed_sutras=&step=11&type=tiGanta

I'll revert back to the old correct forms.

Thanks and regards,

Amba Kulkarni

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आ नो भद्रा: क्रतवो यन्तु विश्वत: ll
Let noble thoughts come to us from every side.
- Rig Veda, I-89-i.

Department of Sanskrit Studies
University of Hyderabad

Prof. C.R. Rao Road 

Hyderabad-500 046

(91) 040 23133802(off)

http://scl.samsaadhanii.in

http://sanskrit.uohyd.ac.in/scl
http://sanskrit.uohyd.ac.in/faculty/amba

[Amba Kulkarni]

Dear Taff Rivers,

On 6 February 2018 at 23:22, Taff Rivers <eddie...@gmail.com> wrote:

Ramana murthy,

  Yes, but that site is not so much faulty as unfinished. As is explained in its scl_help.pdf.

There you will also learn that it's facilities are derived from the well established and well maintained http://sanskrit.inria.fr/index.en.html

I really wonder about your above statement. While  Gérard Huet and me collaborate on the development of various tools, each of us have developed our tools independently.

-- Amba

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[Amba Kulkarni]

Dhaval ji,

I was about to point out this to you.

There are differences of opinion regarding the root form. While Maadhaviiya Dhaatuv.rtti and Dhaatu pradeep mark the entry as खच्, Kshiratarangini marks it as खव्.

My system provides correct forms with खच्.

Further, since both खव्नाति as well as खौनाती are correct, we should provide both of them.

The rule for खव् -> खौ is च्छ्वो शूड् ...

-- Amba

2018-02-07 14:44 GMT+05:30 Dhaval Patel <drdhav...@gmail.com>:

It seems that the derivation is disputed among traditional grammarians too. Kshiratarangini gives the following entry. I am not sure about its intended siddhAnta.

खव

भूतप्रादुर्भावे

 - अतिक्रान्तोत्पत्तौ खव्नाति च्छ्वो शूड् (6419) इति खौनातीति सभ्याः खविता खौः खच इति दौर्गाः 58

Kindly provide the Paninian rule which will convert 'khav' to 'khau'. This will help me correct my system also.

[Taff Rivers]

Amba,

"each of us have developed our tools independently"

You yourself, in your own scl_help.pdf file describe the limitations of your own facility.

Perhaps you have forgotten?

Dear Taff Rivers,

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[Amba Kulkarni]

Hello Taff,

On 7 February 2018 at 15:44, Taff Rivers <eddie...@gmail.com> wrote:

Amba,

"each of us have developed our tools independently"

You yourself, in your own scl_help.pdf file describe the limitations of your own facility.

Perhaps you have forgotten?

No I have not forgotten. I'm well aware of the limitations of  my each of the modules.

My concern was regarding your usage of the word 'derived from' in

"There you will also learn that it's facilities are derived from the well established and well maintained http://sanskrit.inria.fr/index.en.html".

Just to make the point clear:

We at the University of Hyderabad developed various tools for Sanskrit Processing, later on we had a consortium of Indian Institutes,
 who collaborated together towards the improvement of existing and the development of new tools, avoiding any duplication as far as possible.

During the same time we had international collaboration, and we decided to avoid the duplication of efforts again. Under this collaboration, we

hosted the mirror site of Heritage Platform of Gérard Huet and also are working towards using the sophisticated segmenter of Huet in my sentential

parser as one of the components. Similarly, when Dhaval Patel started work on the verb form generator,  stopped working towards it, and we share our resources.

With kind regards,

Amba

 

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[RamanaMurthy Bathala]

Dear Taff Rivers,

I also refer the tools on the website : http://sanskrit.inria.fr

When I crossed checked the outputs of noun/verb forms with the text books, I found there are discrepancies / variations between the text book version and website version. So even this website is not error-proof. If I remember correctly, I took it to the notice of the its web administrators. But, as for as memory goes, I did not receive any response from them. Which one is correct? Text book version or web version? Even in text books, there may be typos. Sanskrit grammar is very difficult for the beginner/student to learn on his/her own.

Recently I rember one root which gave different forms at different books and websites.

A PRACTICAL GRAMMAR OF THE SANSKRIT LANGUAGE- Fourth Edition-MONIER WILLIAMS Page No. 165

 

340. भस् bhas, 'to eat,' 'to shine,' like जन् jan, rejects the radical अ a before the vowel-terminations not marked with P; and भ् bh coalescing with स् s becomes प् p by 44 (Pres.S.Du.Pl.3. बभस्ति babhasti, बभस्तस् babhastas, बप्सति bapsati). The same contraction takes place before terminations beginning with त् t, त्य tya, but the final स् s is then dropped, and the usual rules of Sandhi applied; thus,

बभ् babh + ताम् tām = बब्धाम् babdhām by 298.

Then I tried the conjugational forms of root भस् bhas on the web tools.

From http://sanskrit.inria.fr

(For complete screen shot please see the attachments)

From http://tdil-dc.in

(For complete screen shot please see the attachments)

From http://scl.samsaadhanii.in/

To summarise them in a tabular form:

Root: भस् bhas
3r Person Forms	MONIER-WILLIAMS	sanskrit.inria.fr	tdil-dc.in	scl.samsaadhanii.in
Sing.	बभस्ति babhasti	बभस्ति babhasti	बभस्ति babhasti	बभस्ति babhasti
Du.	बभस्तस् babhastas	बभस्तः babhastaḥ	बब्धः babdhaḥ	बब्धः babdhaḥ
Pl.	बप्सति bapsati	बभसति babhasati	बप्सति bapsati	बप्सति bapsati

 

Singular forms are same for all.

For Dual, MW and Infra concur where as tdil & scl differ.

For Plural, MW, tdil & scl concur where as Infra differs.

 

It may be possible that muliple forms are correct. In that case, conjuational table should list all the correct forms. This avoids the ambiguity in the mind of a student.

 

Moreover, it is not possible to provide the bugs/error free software/tools. As per my knowledge,  most of  the Operating Systems provided by Microsoft have some kind of bug in them. Only OS which is bugs-free I have come across is MS-DOS !!!.

 

Finally what I understand is this: All these computational linguistic tools are helpful but they can not substitute well versed sanskrit schloars in learning process. That’s why I reach to the scholars in this groups. Ancient way of learning in India by a student is by sitting at the feet of Guru and learning the subject.

 

Regards

Ramana murthy

[Amba Kulkarni]

Dear Ramamurthy ji,

The forms on both http://sanskrit.inria.in as well as those on http://scl.samsaadhanii.in are correct according to different dhaatuvrttis.

While Maadhaviiya dhaatuv.rtti attests the forms of the latter one Dhaatupradeep attests those shown on the former.

And interestingly MW has a mixture of the two.

Thank you for bringing this to our notice, we would incorporate them in our next release.

With kind regards,

Amba

[Taff Rivers]

Ramana murthy,

Two points.

• By what criteria do you discriminate between a good Sanskrit scholar from a not so good scholar?
  

That would be useful guide to all us non-scholars.

• I used DOS in the pre WWW days, with legacy Devanagari Fonts.
  

I can assure you that there were indeed errors.

Whereas an individual, myself included, may not have personally experienced any.

Microsoft, that maintains compilations of reports from the odd billion or so users provides evidence to the contrary.

Regards, 

  Taff Rivers,

[Taff Rivers]

Amba,

Re. mAdhavlya.png.

If I may be so bold, not as one of them scholars but as one of them 'inteligent readers'. (a certified one - I have a certificate from IBM to prove it (:-) ):

What you have done with that facility, is to compare one single text with another, thus to reveal similarities and differences.

A comprehensive study, that provides evidence, that the two text are not entirely in agreement.

'Compare and contrast' is a mantra of all good teachers, when they hand out some homework.

A  concordance, however, is an entirely process.

Concordance is a lexicographers tool, used to find all occurrences of a given word in a vast data base of textual material.

Such as the entire Vedic/Classic works.

The object being to reveal the multiple senses (meanings) in which that one word is employed.

From which to build a dictionary. 

Both kinds of software to compare or concord, are, and have been, freely available on the web for decades.

Anyone, can now, compare and contrast the old with the new, and selectively make changes.

Programmers have long employed such facilities to inspect the consequences of those changes. (Think medical systems, ICBMs...)

Those MW's and Worterbuch's were compiled from texts that were as known in those days.

I understand that the efforts of Meseur Huet's team will contribute to an eagerly awaited revised edition of the famous MW.

 

Taff Rivers

  One time writer of medical systems.

[RamanaMurthy Bathala]

Dear Taff Rivers Sir,

Pranams.

1) As an individual, I had not come across the bugs in MS-DOS in those old days.

2) Second, regarding the versed scholars, the term is subjective. I regard MONIER-WILLIAMS and WILLIAM DWIGHT WHITNEY as well versed western Sanskrit Scholars. This my personal opinion. But this is not the point of contention.

Regards

Ramana mrthy

[Amba Kulkarni]

Taff,

The title of the web page is "Concordance of Pāṇinian Dhātuvṛttis" and if you look at the page, you will notice the concordance of verbal roots from the three Dhaatuv.rttis.

One of the meanings of Concordance, listed in the WordNet is :harmony, concord, concordance -- (agreement of opinions)

This justifies the use of the word 'concordance'. Further, this work is in continuation of Palsule's Concordance of Dhaatupaathas.

On the web version, it was possible for us to provide the links to the commentaries as well, in addition to showing the agreements among various scholars.

-- Amba

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[Irene Galstian]

Dear Ramana Murthy,

You're right: without a live teacher learning anything nontrivial is very difficult, however well-written the books and websites are. But with the teacher learning isn't guaranteed either: there exist people who have spent years learning Sanskrit in the traditional way and learned very little. Or how about someone who has learned much but still doesn't know something. With teacher or without, the key point is that nothing in life is guaranteed. We can put forward effort, do our best, and that's all.

On a practical note, you now know that the sites you are using mostly produce correct forms but occasionally don't. I suggest, when you have a mysterious form, to check it on both sites. If one day you find that neither of them produces the correct form, that will send you in search of another site, which will pleasantly surprise you - or maybe it won't.  One step at a time - that's all anyone can do.

I wouldn't worry too much about these matters, just note that they exist. You have set yourself on a productive course of action by gradually working through a reputable grammar - that's what matters most.

Irene

[Ashwini Kumar Aggarwal]

Namastey ji,

Root 1531 खच भूतप्रादुर्भावे । वान्तोऽयमित्येके खव । 9th gana क्र्यादिः ।

Ashtadhyayi Sutra 6.4.19 च्छ्वोः शूडनुनासिके च । इति ऊठ् आदेशः । Then, 6.1.89 एत्येधत्यूठ्सु । इति वृद्धिः ।

So the forms in लट् will be

खौनाति खौनीतः खौनन्ति ।

खौनासि खौनीथः खौनीथ ।

खौनामि खौनीवः खौनीमः ।

Similarly लोट् खौनातु । लङ् अखौनात् । विधिलिङ् खौनीयात् ।

Monier Williams and Brihad Dhaturupavali are Correct.

May refer

https://pothi.com/pothi/book/ashwini-kumar-aggarwal-dhatupatha-verbs-5-lakaras-vol2

Jai Gurudev

Ashwini

[RamanaMurthy Bathala]

Dear Ashwini Kumar Aggarwal Sir,

Can you please provide the kindle version of your 3 vols: Dhatupatha Verbs in 5 Lakaras on Amazon.

Regards

Ramana murthy 

[RamanaMurthy Bathala]

Dear Sir,

  While using the verb-form generator on http://sanskrit.inria.fr, I got some doubts. I took to Gérard Huett’s notice. He promptly and graciously responded to my mail.  I am adding here some contents for the benefit of others.

*****START****

My Question:

I am trying to use your website for conjugational forms of roots. Here is one such root is गाध् gādh.

Monier Williams dictionay identified this root in it.

But it seems the Heritage dictionary does not have it. I searched it but could not find. I tried for the conjugational forms of it using the verb-form generator.

Gérard Huet’s reply:

That is correct. I have the related root « gaah » which is used in classical Sanskrit, but the variant gaadh may be an original form of the root, maybe attested in Vedic works. Some k.rdantas of the root I list such as gaadha, gaa.dha. 

Please note that Whitney Roots lists gaah with the above derivatives, but not the finite form gaadhate.

MW lists Dhaatupatha ii,3, but my experience is that many dhaatupaathas are full of forms that are nowhere attested.

Do you have an attested classical sentence with a finite verbal form of gaadh ? If so, I might consider adding the gaadhate paradigm.

 

My Question:

It seems that the tool has not recognized the input given as the authentic root accoriding the entries in its Heritage dictinary. But this root exists in MW dictionary.

Gérard Huet’s reply:

When the conjugation tool returns a question mark, it means that it does not know this root under this spelling, and thus that the forms shown are theoretical, but may not be recognized by the reader. 

 

The Heritage dictionary does not cover all forms in Monier-Williams, of course. 

 

*****END****

So when there is question mark in the output of the verb-generator, it means the that the root does not exist in the Heritage dictionary. In majority of cases, I have come across, even though there is a question mark, the output was correct when I cross checked with other resources.

But here is a one instance, when question mark shown in the output, does not match with other resources.

I was trying to find the conjugational forms of the root कुर्द् kurd.

 Here is the output form INRIA

Here is the output from scl.samsaadhanii.in

Regards

Ramana murthy

[Ashwini Kumar Aggarwal]

Respected RamanaMurthy ji,

 

Please see on http://www.lulu.com

http://www.lulu.com/shop/ashwini-kumar-aggarwal/dhatupatha-verbs-in-5-lakaras-conjugation-tables-for-9-parasmaipada-9-atmanepada-lat-lrt-lot-lang-vling-rupas-for-all-1943-dhatus-includes-lat-karmani-nishtha-forms/ebook/product-23517505.html

Jai Gurudev

[RamanaMurthy Bathala]

Respected Ashwini Kumar Aggarwal Sir,

Thanks. I have purchased the PDF versions all the 3 books from lulu.

Regards

Ramana murthy

[Ashwini Kumar Aggarwal]

धन्यवादः महोदयः 

नमामि । Jai Gurudev

Ashwini

https://advaita56.weebly.com/books.html