Word formation

[Sinu S]

नमस्ते !

How is the word क्रम formed ?

Is it from क् + र + म  or  क् + ऋ + अ + म   ?

Thank you.

Sinu

[Nagaraj Paturi]

क् +र् ‌‌‌‌+अ + म् + अ 

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Nagaraj Paturi

 

Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.

 

Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies

 

FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of  Liberal Education,

 

(Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA )

 

 

 

[ken p]

क्रम=K̩rm If क्‌ = K̩ म्‌ = m̩ क=k म=m r̩= र्‌ r=र

[Nagaraj Paturi]

The original question is 

How is the word क्रम formed ?

Is it from क् + र + म  or  क् + ऋ + अ + म   ?

The answer given is 

क् +र् ‌‌‌‌+अ + म् + अ 

Why all this unnecessary and irrelevant stuff?

 

On Thu, Jan 19, 2017 at 8:10 AM, ken p <drk...@gmail.com> wrote:

क्रम=K̩rm     If  क्‌ = K̩  म्‌ = m̩  क=k  म=m r̩= र्‌  r=र

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[Sinu S]

Thank you for clarifying Nagaraj Paturi.

May I ask you why is that Sanskrit gives two different pronunciations to र ?

 र    in रथ is pronounced differently than  र    in  क्रम , where it is conjunct with another consonant.

Thanks

Sinu

On Wednesday, January 18, 2017 at 12:40:25 PM UTC-6, Nagaraj Paturi wrote:

क् +र् ‌‌‌‌+अ + म् + अ 

On Wed, Jan 18, 2017 at 11:47 PM, Sinu S <sinu...@gmail.com> wrote:

नमस्ते !

How is the word क्रम formed ?

Is it from क् + र + म  or  क् + ऋ + अ + म   ?

Thank you.

Sinu

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[Nagaraj Paturi]

>May I ask you why is that Sanskrit gives two different pronunciations to र ?

> र    in रथ is pronounced differently than  र    in  क्रम , where it is conjunct with another consonant.

Sanskrit gives? 

Do you mean that you observed two different pronunciations ? or you observed two different pronunciations when you yourself pronounce the sound represented by र in these two different positions?

In any case, if your question comes from your own observation, I must say , you are a keen observer of sounds and you are right. 

But let me tell you that such a minutely different pronunciation of a sound represented by a script symbol in various positions of a word is not the special feature of Sanskrit. 

In any language with a script, you get this feeling, though the phenomenon is found in all languages irrespective of whether they have script or not. 

 र    in रथ and र    in  क्रम are called two different phones and are considered to be variations of the same sound. That sound of which these two are considered to be variations is called a phoneme. The script symbol र  represents that phoneme.  

  

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[G S S Murthy]

Honestly I cannot perceive any difference in pronunciation of "ra" in "ratha" and "krama". 

But I am aware that 'ra' is pronounced in a significantly different manner by those in middle East (Arabic/Persian/Hebrew??). 

However in Kannada I have noticed a subtle difference in pronouncing ತ in the two words ತಂದೆ =father and ತಂದೆ = I brought. I wonder if anyone else speaking Kannada has any comments on this. I am sorry if I have digressed.

Regards,

Murthy 

My web site : http://murthygss.tripod.com/index.htm
and also my Sanskrit blog :

http://simplesanskrit.blogspot.com/

http://gssmurthy.blogspot.com

[Nagaraj Paturi]

You have not digressed, since I said such minute differences are not unique to Sanskrit. 

The difference between r in ratha, and r in krama is because  of the difference in the position of the sound in a word. 

using C for consonant V for vowel,  

r in ratha is in # _VCA# sequence and r in krama is in #C_VCV# sequence. 

Vocal muscles move differently in a word initial position  than in a next to consonant position. That creates a minute difference in the acoustics so created.   

[DR Y N RAO]

Dear Mr. Sinu S,

The Attachment to my e-mail on the Subject -- PRONUNCIATION  OF  ‘र’(which has been extracted from my Course Material) may help you.

With best wishes,

--Dr. Y.N. RAO,
01/20/2017

On Fri, Jan 20, 2017 at 2:07 PM, DR Y N RAO <doctor...@gmail.com> wrote:

Dear Mr. Sinu S,

The Attachment to my e-mail on the Subject -- PRONUNCIATION  OF  ‘र’(which has been extracted from my Course Material) may help you.

With best wishes,

--Dr. Y.N. RAO,
01/20/2017

On Fri, Jan 20, 2017 at 8:01 AM, Nagaraj Paturi <nagara...@gmail.com> wrote:

[Sinu S]

Thank you Rao Sir. Your attachment is very useful.

[Sinu S]

Indeed the differences in sounds are minute. But these sounds are made with different positioning of the tongue. My observation that Sanskrit being a very strict language, why isn't there  specific letters for the two sounds like Telugu and Malayalam languages ? Also in the word  क्रम the sound felt as though it was derived from   ऋ + अ, hence the first question.

Thank you very much for your valuable inputs.

[उज्ज्वल राजपूत]

In Telugu and Malayalam, most probably, replacing one sound of 'r' with the another might change the meaning of the word. This does not happen in Sanskrit. The Indian scripts are not "strict", but practical.

शनिवार, 21 जनवरी 2017 को 3:11:07 पूर्व UTC+5:30 को, Sinu S ने लिखा:

[Nagaraj Paturi]

'Strict language', 'as though it was derived from   ऋ + अ' etc. show that you need to have a more professional linguistics understanding. 

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[Nagaraj Paturi]

>In Telugu and Malayalam, most probably, replacing one sound of 'r' with the another might change the meaning of the word. This does not happen in Sanskrit.

------ This is an accurate observation. But applies to Tamil and Malayalam in the case of 'r' and applies to Telugu, Kannada, Tamil and Malayalam in the case of 'l'. Technically, that is what makes the two 'r' s two different phonemes in Tamil and Malayalam, two  'l' s two different phonemes in Telugu, Kannada, Tamil and Malayalam. In Sanskrit, the different 'r's are not different phonemes because replacing one 'r' with another does not change the meaning. Different phonemes need different script symbols. In Sanskrit different script symbols are not required because of the reason mentioned by Sri Ujjval Rajputji. 

[Hnbhat B.R.]

Actually his question seems to be र was fomed ऋ + अ or र् + अ. कृ+अ or क्+र्-अ. ऋ has little difference from र् the consonant. This iis my conjecture from his discussions. . 

[Nagaraj Paturi]

you seem to be close to reading his heart, Dr Bhat. 

But why don't you tell him that पितृ + आदेशः > पित्रादेशः type situations are the only ones where ऋ ‌‌+ आ > रा occurs and क्रम has no such sandhi involved. 

On Sat, Jan 21, 2017 at 10:03 AM, Hnbhat B.R. <hnbh...@gmail.com> wrote:

Actually his question seems to be र was fomed ऋ + अ or र् + अ. कृ+अ or क्+र्-अ. ऋ has little difference from र् the consonant. This iis my conjecture from his discussions. . 

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[Arvind_Kolhatkar]

The query is

 <How is the word क्रम formed ?

Is it from क् + र + म  or  क् + ऋ + अ + म   ?>

While raising this query, the querist should also give some background as to why this question arose in his mind at all.  Otherwise thousands of such questions can be raised.  For example, one may well ask whether 

प्रलय is प्र+ल+य or  प्र+ल+इ+अ.  Why not?  So here we go round...

[Sinu S]

I was confused why in Sanskrit र and ऋ are used interchangeably.  र is a consonant while ऋ  is a vowel. क्रम  (sequence of doing) must have its origin in कृ which is क् + ऋ, where as कारक  (causing) also must have it root in कृ, but uses र. Also र and ऋ makes slightly different sounds. I hope to understand more as I continue my study of grammar. and thanks for all the help.

Sinu

[Taff Rivers]

Sinu,

 र and ऋ are not interchangeable.

What we have here, is one of the processes whereby nouns are derived from a verb.

The form krama is created from the root kṛ  by the application of a series of those dreaded Pāṇinian grammatical rules.

This particular Pāṇinian process involves something called the affixing of a kṛt affix.

That is the written script.

As to the spoken word, र and ऋ may be pronounced alike or differently. 

From one grammar book Maurer's, I understand that the ऋ sound depends on which part of India you happen to be in.

Choose your Grammar sources that are written for readers in your first language,and especially by those that have taught so.

Reading comes first, most of those rules are relevant only for advanced writers.

Taff

[ken p]

English words that contain cr /kr

http://www.wordfind.com/contains/cr/

http://www.wordfind.com/contains/cr/#words5

[Taff Rivers]

Ken P,

Could you enlighten all us Sanskritists as to the correct pronunciation of the 'r' in the Anglicised Sanskrit, please.

And how that differs from the ṛ in Saṃskṛta?

And why it is aprastāvika?

Taff Rivers

[ken p]

ṛ =ऋ /ri/rri/in Hindi

ṛ =ઋ/ru/rru/in Gujarati

cruse creek /kruz, krus /krik.....in English
ru/રુ/रु

ruu/રૂ/रू

Divine Sanskrit may have different symbolic sound for ṛ =ऋ  practiced by 

Vedic Gurus who in past never reveal these sounds to common people. 

Saṃskṛta/संस्कृत (in south)  Sanskṛta /सन्स्कृत ( in Gujarati) 

Sanskrīta / सन्स्क्रीत (in Hindi)  Sanskruta /सन्स्क्रुत (Gujarati dialect)

[Nagaraj Paturi]

> Divine Sanskrit may have different symbolic sound for ṛ =ऋ  practiced by 

Vedic Gurus who in past never reveal these sounds to common people. 

---- S'ikshaa granthas were meant only to provide meticulous pronunciation guidance of various sounds pronounced in the Vedic and Sanskrit expressions is a common knowledge to any elementary student of Sanskrit studies. That the pronunciation of ṛ =ऋ was also described as meticulously in those books is also well known. Why do you make these statements without verifying with a knowledgeable scholar or a student of Sanskrit senior to you?

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[अभ्यंकरकुलोत्पन्नः श्रीपादः | श्रीपतेः पदयुगं स्मरणीयम् ।]

र् and ऋ are different from the point of view of phonetics, especially in deciphering meters of poetry. For example, in the word सुकृत the letter सु would have only one मात्रा. However in सुप्रभात the letter सु would have two मात्रा-s. In सुकृत the letter कृ is not a conjoint consonant. It is simply a consonant completed by a vowel. In सुप्रभात the letter प्र is a conjoint consonant.

[ken p]

You may count matra for सु 

The matras associated with the vowels are shown below.

vowel	अ	आ	इ	ई	उ	ऊ	ऋ	ए	ऐ	ओ	औ
matra		ा	ि	ी	ु	ू	ृ	े	ै	ो	ौ
example	क	का	कि	की	कु	कू	कृ	के	कै	को	कौ

No matra is used for the combination अ since this is considered the basic syllable for a consonant.

http://pratyeka.org/sanskrit/combinations.html

ह्रस्व/दीर्घ/प्लुत उच्चार http://susanskrit.org/oral-tradition/2010-07-17-06-21-14.html

How to Pronounce the Sanskrit Alphabet 1: Vowels

https://youtu.be/KKllignWiS8

[Taff Rivers]

Ken P,

   I do not know what your first language is, but you do realise that your understanding of the English language leaves a lot to be desired?

This is not only evident from your reading of members post where you repeatedly fail to grasp the question, but also in your replies which evidence a somewhat garbled sense of English.

Viz, the attached.

!. matra.  There is no such word, neither in English nor in Romanised Sanskrit.   

2. Your table has nothing to do with pronunciation, which concerns spoken Sanskrit, It is a table of written vowels which is scripted Sanskrit.

    It does not even include that semi-vowel, the sole subject of this entire topic.

 

    The table simply shows the written form that vowels take when they come after consonant(s).

    They are commonly referred to as vowel-signs,or half-forms of the vowels

mātrā  concerns the relative length of time that a vowel is sounded, and is nothing to do with its use in combinations of any form or with pronunciation itself.

A short vowel, regardless of its visual appearance is given a length of one measure.        1 mātrā  

A long vowel, is distinguished from its short companion by be sounded twice as long .     2 mātrā 

The prolated vowel (pluta), no less then three measures in length.                                  3 mātrā 

Now,can you see that your statement No matra is used for the combination अ , requires the mind of a Sherlock Homes to unravel its meaning?

This is all stuff that comes in the very introduction of any treatment of Sanskrit grammar, before even Chapter I 

It comes along with a guide to pronunciation - given in the readers own language - people don't speak phonetic speak, any such is as welcome of graffiti.

Taff Rivers,

Certified qualifications in English Language and English Literature -

- true, but not often fully applied and usually laced with a dash of spice.

[JAZIRAE NEOKAI]

But why does the letter सु change rather than  प्र ?

On Wed, Jan 25, 2017 at 5:44 AM, अभ्यंकरकुलोत्पन्नः श्रीपादः | श्रीपतेः पदयुगं स्मरणीयम् । <sl.abh...@gmail.com> wrote:

र् and ऋ are different from the point of view of phonetics, especially in deciphering meters of poetry. For example, in the word सुकृत the letter सु would have only one मात्रा. However in सुप्रभात the letter सु would have two मात्रा-s. In सुकृत the letter कृ is not a conjoint consonant. It is simply a consonant completed by a vowel. In सुप्रभात the letter प्र is a conjoint consonant.

[Naresh Cuntoor]

On Wed, Jan 25, 2017 at 5:44 AM, अभ्यंकरकुलोत्पन्नः श्रीपादः | श्रीपतेः पदयुगं स्मरणीयम् । <sl.abh...@gmail.com> wrote:

र् and ऋ are different from the point of view of phonetics, especially in deciphering meters of poetry. For example, in the word सुकृत the letter सु would have only one मात्रा. However in सुप्रभात the letter सु would have two मात्रा-s. In सुकृत the letter कृ is not a conjoint consonant. It is simply a consonant completed by a vowel. In सुप्रभात the letter प्र is a conjoint consonant.

I think you are using " two मात्रा-s" and guru interchangeably. As far as I know, that is not standard practice.

[hnbhat]

On 23 January 2017, at 05:17, Taff Rivers <eddie...@gmail.com> wrote:

>
>
>Sinu,
>
> र and ऋ are not interchangeable.
>
>What we have here, is one of the processes whereby nouns are derived from a verb.
>
>The form krama is created from the root kṛ  by the application of a series of those dreaded Pāṇinian grammatical rules.
>

क्रम is not created from the root kṛ, by any Pāṇinian rule, but fro the root kram. The rest is is only from the confusion of Shinu regarding vowel is interchangeable with the consonant. Only r is substitute for ṛ when it is followed by vowel which is never explained as k+ṛ+a by anyone grammarian except Shinu.

[Taff Rivers]

Professor,

  Thank you for the correction. 

Under the entry for krama in the Monier-Williams, I read 

    •  (kramaṃ √ 1. kṛ, 'to follow that rule'), Nyāyam.

On re-reading, I notice the entry immediately above krama is another root kram.

    •  P. to be liable to the peculiar arrangement of a Vedic text called Krama (i.e. to be doubled, as a letter or word), RPrāt. vi, 4.

Even here, there is an ambiguity. Are we to understand that Krama is a Vedic text (singular) or an arrangement of words in Vedic texts (plural)?

And RPrāt is stating that a letter to be doubled, as opp. to substituted.

Things differ not only according to the writers but also to the readers.

Regards,

  Taff

[Irene Galstian]

What would be the Sanskrit analogue to Chomsky and Halle's Sound Pattern of English?

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[Taff Rivers]

Irene,

    Devanagari versions have already been referred to.

An English language version of Paninian Shiksa is here:

   

    http://webstock.in/001-Epics-PDF/Paniniya-Shiksha-English/Paniniya-Shiksha-English.pdf

Good reading,

Taff

[Irene Galstian]

Taff,

That's the thing: I went back trying to find them, but I must have accidentally deleted a few of the messages. 

I am sorry to trouble you, but could you please list one or two of the Devanagari books again?

Kind regards,

Irene

[Taff Rivers]

Irene,

Best to scan the world at large, there to choose the format, quality, style, clarity, etc. that best meets personal requirements.

Google for paniniyas shiksha with various spellings and scripts.

But must it be a book?

 Here is a one free downloadable PDF, for example:  http://hinduonline.co/vedicreserve/shiksha/paniniya_shiksha.pdf

If all you actually want is some authentic devanagari, upon which to practice your sandhi splitting etc, you will want the well-known texts, where you are guided along step by step.

BTW. You would not be a certain professor of mathematics in your day job would you?

Taff Rivers

[Irene Galstian]

Indeed, Taff, I do want authentic Devanagari in this case. 

As for your question, I didn't want to be at the mercy of university politics. Here in the UK mathematicians are now pressured into proving that their work is 'useful', God help us all. 

I am an independent mathematician, you could say. If I want to teach, I teach. If I want to do 'useful' mathematics, I take on image analysis/bioinformatics/comp linguistics projects, or do some coding for a Vedic astrology research study. And if/when something new and significant is found in algebraic geometry (my former love), I'll hear about it from the mailing lists and Arxiv anyway. Life's better that way, IMO. 

Kind regards,

Irene