internal saṃdhi of pañcatayyaḥ?

[Taff Rivers]

Learned ones,

In the familiar verse, "YS     I. 5     Vṛttayaḥ pañcatayyaḥ kliṣṭa-akliṣṭāḥ."

pañcatayyaḥ is generally interpreted as fivefold in English, but whereas the Vṛttayaḥ is easily parsed as being the nominative plural of Vṛtti.

I don't quite understand how enumerations are inflected.

I have dificulty with the tayyaḥ bit of  pañcatayyaḥ.

I thought it may derive from the pronoun tad, but tad doesn't have a tayyaḥ inflection.

Is there a cascading series of anuvṛtti saṃdhi, involved here?

Thanks in advance,

Taff Rivers.

[Hnbhat B.R.]

The form "pañcatayyaḥ" is nominative plural of पञ्चतयी an adjective formed from पञ्च adding the suffix तयप्, added  

 with feminine suffix  ई to पञ्चतय - पञ्चतयी. पञ्च अवयवा अस्य is the meaning of the suffix. संख्याया अवयवे तयप् 5-2-42.  
Thanks 

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[Taff Rivers]

Professsor,

I understand that the पञ्चतयी has come into it. Thank you.

But what is this तयप्, Is it some kind of secondary derivation - a noun derived from a noun.

Is that where the two consecutive letter y's of the pañcatayyaḥ come from?

That is what I don't really understand.

Thank you again.

Taff Rivers

On Monday, January 29, 2018 at 12:31:24 AM UTC, hn bhat wrote:

The form "pañcatayyaḥ" is nominative plural of पञ्चतयी an adjective formed from पञ्च adding the suffix तयप्, added  

 with feminine suffix  ई to पञ्चतय - पञ्चतयी. पञ्च अवयवा अस्य is the meaning of the suffix. संख्याया अवयवे तयप् 5-2-42.  
Thanks 


On Monday, January 29, 2018, Taff Rivers <eddie...@gmail.com> wrote:

Learned ones,

In the familiar verse, "YS     I. 5     Vṛttayaḥ pañcatayyaḥ kliṣṭa-akliṣṭāḥ."

pañcatayyaḥ is generally interpreted as fivefold in English, but whereas the Vṛttayaḥ is easily parsed as being the nominative plural of Vṛtti.

I don't quite understand how enumerations are inflected.

I have dificulty with the tayyaḥ bit of  pañcatayyaḥ.

I thought it may derive from the pronoun tad, but tad doesn't have a tayyaḥ inflection.

Is there a cascading series of anuvṛtti saṃdhi, involved here?

Thanks in advance,

Taff Rivers.

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[Hnbhat B.R.]

Exactly it is due to internal as sandhi that you see two consecutive yy. The first in the suffix and second due to sandhi. Just like nadyaH where there is no y in the stem, but here there one y in the noun itself and y added due to sandhi.

Hope this is clear. The word pancatayii is derived from pancan-taya+I.

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[S. L. Abhyankar]

श्रीमन् भट-महोदय !

अपि साधूनि इमानि वाक्यानि => द्वितयं नाणकम् / त्रितयाः सगुणाः / पञ्चतयं विश्वम् / अष्टतय्यः दिशः /  

[Taff Rivers]

Gentlemen,

The missing piece in the jigsaw that is Sanskrit Grammar, that I have been keen to obtain, namely तयप् (tayap) would appear to be a technical term.

In the Grammar of the famous Pāṇini himself, I learn:

2. bha

•  (in gram.) N. of the weakest base of nouns (as opp. to pada and aṅga, q.v.) 

i.e. of the base before the vowel terminations except in strong cases, 

before feminine suffixes, 

and before Taddhitas beginning with vowels or y, 

Pāṇ. 1-4, 18 &c. [742,2]

Thanking you all,

Taff Rivers

p.s.

I found "A Dictionary Of Sanskrit Grammar By Kashinath Vasudev Abhyankar" to be most useful, for the likes of myself, especially the text.pdf version, which allows for note-taking.

https://ia800609.us.archive.org/17/items/ADictionaryOfSanskritGrammarByMahamahopadhyayaKashinathVasudevAbhyankar/DictionaryOfSanskritGrammar_abhyankar_text.pdf

[Taff Rivers]

Gentlemen,

   Getting technical re, tayap...

How is the tayap concept properly expressed in terms of Panini's iT markers?

For example 

Sutra 1.1.1 vṛddhir ādaic

 is better expressed as vṛddhiḥ āT aiC.

As to tayap, which carries additional information encypted by the letters ap, at the termination, 

how therefore, should tayap be propely expressed - in the IAST transliteration scheme please.

Also there is a confusion regarding the employment of cardinal numbers.

Panini employes them not as numbers, but as types of case endings* - whereas ap, in the absence of explicit information is otherwise taken to be an inflection - albeit non-existent!.

Regards,

Taff Rivers

*http://readingpanini.blogspot.co.uk/p/vibhakti.html

[Hnbhat B.R.]

Simply tayaP is a secondary suffix added to the numerals denoting parts a adjectival noun.  taya is heard after losing the marker. Because of the  suffix, the derived word takes feminine gender suffix I.

[Taff Rivers]

Dt,

  You must realise the difficulty here.

In some mysterious way, tayap has morphed into tayaP!

Again, I learn from http://readingpanini.blogspot.co.uk/p/vibhakti.html 

   that there is no iT maker! Some have them, some don't. The ones that don't depend on their sounding.

Whilst you do mention the 'sound' in your explanation, you do not provide the necessary the information that the non-sanskrit grammarian will need to get from p to P. Namely that  there is no iT maker! Some have them, some don't. The ones that don't depend on their sounding.

Here is the relevant paragraph from http://readingpanini.blogspot.co.uk/p/vibhakti.html that this non sanskrit grammarian, making up of 999,999.999%  of the worlds population, needs , Sanskrit grammarians are practically extint, and their knowledge, with them! 

I quote:

"Here’s another convention regarding these case endings: 

by combining the initial letter (sound) of an earlier case ending with the last letter of a subsequent case ending, 

we can make short hand notations for a range of case endings (just like we had pratyāhāra for letters, e.g. iK, aiC, etc., 

in fact these are pratyāhāra for case endings): 

sUP covers all the 21 vibhakti, taking the first sound in sU and the last sound in suP. 

Similarly, ..."

But again, it is not clear to this member, if that U in the aforementioned sUP, is an iT marker or a 'sound'...

In much the same way as "We have a level four space saturation saturation, here." makes perfect sense to me as computer insider, but makes goobledegook to outsiders.

(It means that the disc holding printout, to be sent to a mainframe's Line Printer is almost full, and unless more space is allocated, will hold up every single users running programs. - A sort of modern day's DDOS or Distributed Denial of Service.

Simply put:

 What is simple to insiders is incomprehensible to outsiders - unless retold in simple English (or whatever). 

 

Regards,

Taff rivers

I know it's not easy!

I speak as a onetime writer of goobledegook free computer manuals for use at an International Airport (Riyadh) - they take months to write, but just a single hour to be read and approved (or otherwise) for meeting International standards. (Both of them were so approved.)

Don't like doing the documentation? Think what Albert had to do!

[Hnbhat B.R.]

it is not misterious way, but the way Panini has guided in Panian way which others have learn to interpret than blaming Paninian system of grammar as difficult.

I have explained in the same way that any one studied Ashtadhyayi or Siddhanta Kaumudi.

[S. L. Abhyankar]

Dear Mr. Taff Rivers,

तयप् is grammatical name of the affix. It applies only to numerals i.e. संख्याशब्द-s, as specified in संख्याया अवयवे तयप् (5'2'42), When affixing, it is to be affixed only as तय. 

The logic is that in the grammatical name, तयप्  the ending consonant प् qualifies to be an इत् by (हलन्त्यम् 1'3'3). All इत्-s  defined in (1'3'2) to (1'3'8) are to be dropped as per the diktat in तस्य लोपः (1'3'9). 

Basically तयप् is an affix, which helps to derive adjectives from numerals. Basically numerals are themselves adjectival. So, here the process becomes deriving another adjectival word from an adjective on hand. Affixes which have a role in such secondary derivation are called as तद्धित-affixes.

When making feminine adjectives, feminine form of तय becomes तयी. 

[Taff Rivers]

Exactly what is needed.

A liitle light is beginning to shine on the matter.

1.3.9 reads  tasya lopaḥ

But there is more to come...

I quote from the MW:

    "the dropping of the whole affix is implied"

implied?  where?

lopa

•  (in gram.) dropping, elision (generally as distinguished from the terms lup, ślu, luk, which are only applicable to affixes; when lopa of an affix takes place, a blank is substituted, which exerts the same influence on the base as the affix itself, but when either luk or lup or ślu of an affix is enjoined, then the affix is not only dropped but it is also inoperative on the base.

•  thus in the 1st pl. of kati, where jas is said to be elided by luk, the change of the final of the base to Guṇa does not take place, i.e. both the affix and its effect on the base are abolished.

•  moreover, lopa refers only to the last letter of an affix, whereas by luk &c. the dropping of the whole affix is implied), Nir. Prāt. Pāṇ. &c.

Whatever, what is becoming very clear, is that a great deal of  background material, over the miilenia, became detached from the aṣtādhyāyī, itself. Very prominently so is the Śivasūtrāṇi, for example - the dhātupāṭha.... 

Shouldn't we be gringing to mind that this particular grammar, had a very particular purpose - it was designed to appeal to the deities.

Whom it was understood, were duty bound to fulfill such requests.

The grammar detailed the correct way to make the sounds that they dieties were said to speak.

The grammar itself being spoken of by those that knew such things.

It was perfected, so as to satisfy any human doubts and uncertainties. otherwise known as ambiguities.

It was designed (and perfected) only to address the deities. Very much as one way system,- the dieties did not speak back! 

It was certainly not as a two way written sytem of communication  between mortals.

It is very apparent to all, that said written system is far from perfect, i.e. unambiguous.

In fact, in real life, there never was a written grammar - such is non-existent. Any discussion about such a subject can be no more fruitful than discussions about unicorns or dragons.

As to ritual languages, handed down from those that knew such things, well, their sources aren't speaking, not to me anyway!

regards,

Taff Rivers

[अभ्यंकरकुलोत्पन्नः श्रीपादः | श्रीपतेः पदयुगं स्मरणीयम् ।]

Dear Mr. Taff Rivers,

For the meaning of lopaḥ you have checked the word in MW. 

But I would think that for meaning of grammatical terms such as lopaḥ, one should understand it from its grammatical significance. For example grammatical significance of lopaḥ can as well be understood from a sort of its definition in a-darśanaṃ lopaḥ (1'1'59). By this definition, lopaḥ means becoming invisible. 

Again the aphorism tasya lopah (1'3'9) is a diktat, dictating what is to be done. Such aphorisms defining the process, i.e. what is to be done, are of the type called as vidhi-sootra's. Identifying an इत् and doing its लोपः is a process. 

It is to be also understood that one may not achieve a particular grammatical result by applying only one process. In this instance of reaching the end result of the word-form पञ्चतय्यः  

1. our starting point is पञ्च a numeral. Actually base form of पञ्च is पञ्चन्. The ending consonant न् can also be treated to be an इत् and we should apply the process tasya lopah (1'3'9), By that we have पञ्च. 
2. we want to add the affix तयप् 
3. since तयप् is the name of the affix, we have to get its usable form by dropping its ending consonant 'प्'. So we add only तय. 
4. By that we have पञ्च+तय = पञ्चतय. 
5. Now we want its feminine, which becomes पञ्चतयी 
6. Next we want its first case plural. The affix of first case plural is अस् from स्वौजसमौट् (सु+औच्+अस्+अम्+औट्) .. (4'1'2). 
7. By इको यणचि (6'1'77) rule of अच्-संधि, पञ्चतयी+अस् = पञ्चतय्यस् = पञ्चतय्यः 
8. As an observation on the go, it may be noted that the grammatical name of the affix for first case dual is औच्, whereas that of second case dual is औट्. Both these names have consonant-endings, which, grammatically, are इत्-s and would get dropped. 

If I may put your original question to have been "what is grammatical analysis of the word पञ्चतय्यः ?" the 7 steps as above become a rudimentary analysis. I am still calling it as rudimentary, because these steps do have some unexplained processes, e.g. 

1. How feminine base of पञ्चतय becomes पञ्चतयी (getting to step 5 from step 4). 
2. At the second step, the statement is "we want to add the affix तयप्. But when and how does one select this affix to be the most appropriate affix in this instance ? 
3. The aphorism संख्याया अवयवे तयप् (5'2'42) specifies that तयप् can be affixed only to संख्याशब्द-s. Well, our base word पञ्च is a संख्याशब्द. 
4. But appropriateness of an affix has to be also appropriate for the meaning to be conveyed. The aphorism संख्याया अवयवे तयप् (5'2'42) suggests that the affix तयप् would lend a meaning of अवयव when affixed to a संख्याशब्द. 
5. But what is अवयव ?
6. In Apte's dictionary I get => अवयवः [अवयूयते कार्यद्रव्येण संबध्यते, अव-यु-कर्मणि-अप्] 1 limb (of the body); मुखावयवलूनां ताम् R.12.43, Amaru. 45,51; a member (in general); कस्मिंश्चिदपि जीवति नन्दान्व- यावयेव Mu.1. -2 A part, portion (as of a whole); पदे न वर्णा विद्यन्ते वर्णेष्ववयवा न च Bhartṛi; द्रव्याणां केनचिदवयवेन Dk. 61; क्तेनाहोरात्रावयवाः P.II.1.45; II.1.46. -3 A member or a component part of a logical argument or syllogism, (these are five :- प्रतिज्ञा, हेतु, उदाहरण, उपनय and निगमन). -4 The body. -5 A component, constituent, ingredient (in general), as of a compound &c. -6 A means (साधन, उपकरण). 
7. From "क्तेनाहोरात्रावयवाः P.II.1.45; II.1.46", it seems अवयवः is also a grammatical term as defined in (2'1'45 & 46).

To cut long thing short, I would say, the quote वृत्तयः पञ्चतय्यः ... (योगसूत्रम् 1'5) can be translated as वृत्ति-s are five-fold. If there be a mathematical set of वृत्ति-s, the set would have five elements, factors, अवयव-s. The five elements of this "वृत्ति"-set are detailed in the next योगसूत्रम् 1'6, viz. प्रमाण-विपर्यय-विकल्प-निद्रा-स्मृतयः 

Hope, this helps.

[Irene Galstian]

Mr. Abhyankar,

Could you please put up this reply as an article on your blog, if you have the time?

Kind regards,

Irene

--

[Hnbhat B.R.]

On 4 Feb 2018 1:39 am, "अभ्यंकरकुलोत्पन्नः श्रीपादः | श्रीपतेः पदयुगं स्मरणीयम् ।" <sl.abh...@gmail.com> wrote:

Dear Mr. Taff Rivers,

For the meaning of lopaḥ you have checked the word in MW. 

But I would think that for meaning of grammatical terms such as lopaḥ, one should understand it from its grammatical significance. For example grammatical significance of lopaḥ can as well be understood from a sort of its definition in a-darśanaṃ lopaḥ (1'1'59). By this definition, lopaḥ means becoming invisible. 

Again the aphorism tasya lopah (1'3'9) is a diktat, dictating what is to be done. Such aphorisms defining the process, i.e. what is to be done, are of the type called as vidhi-sootra's. Identifying an इत् and doing its लोपः is a process. 

It is to be also understood that one may not achieve a particular grammatical result by applying only one process. In this instance of reaching the end result of the word-form पञ्चतय्यः  

1. our starting point is पञ्च a numeral. Actually base form of पञ्च is पञ्चन्. The ending consonant न् can also be treated to be an इत् and we should apply the process tasya lopah (1'3'9), By that we have पञ्च. 

न् at the end of पञ्चन् is not considered as

 इत् and process tasya lopah does not apply here. It is due to ,the process नलोपः प्रातिपदिकान्तस्य VIII. 2. 7 लोपः is directly processed at the end of any प्रातिपदिक which is defined as per कृत्‍तद्धितसमासाश्‍च ।।1/2/46।। as it ending in  न्. before the taddhita suffix tayaP. 

it is differentlt processed in nominative case and accusative case. First जस् शस् are lost due to the operation of 

षड्भ्यो लुक् 7-1-22 and नलोपः प्रातिपदिकान्तस्य VIII. 2. 7 .

 

1. we want to add the affix तयप् 
2. since तयप् is the name of the affix, we have to get its usable form by dropping its ending consonant 'प्'. So we add only तय. 
3. By that we have पञ्च+तय = पञ्चतय. 
4. Now we want its feminine, which becomes पञ्चतयी 
5. Next we want its first case plural. The affix of first case plural is अस् from स्वौजसमौट् (सु+औच्+अस्+अम्+औट्) .. (4'1'2). 
6. By इको यणचि (6'1'77) rule of अच्-संधि, पञ्चतयी+अस् = पञ्चतय्यस् = पञ्चतय्यः 
7. As an observation on the go, it may be noted that the grammatical name of the affix for first case dual is औच्, whereas that of second case dual is औट्. Both these names have consonant-endings, which, grammatically, are इत्-s and would get dropped. 

If I may put your original question to have been "what is grammatical analysis of the word पञ्चतय्यः ?" the 7 steps as above become a rudimentary analysis. I am still calling it as rudimentary, because these steps do have some unexplained processes, e.g. 

1. How feminine base of पञ्चतय becomes पञ्चतयी (getting to step 5 from step 4). 

Here  टिड्ढाणञ्()" (४।१।१।५)  feminine suffix ड़ीप् operates due to the suffix tayaP.  In ड़ीप् the ड़् becomes इत् and  tasya lopah is applied remaining ई to be visible in the femine suffix.

At the second step, the statement is "we want to add the affix तयप्. But when and how does one select this affix to be the most appropriate affix in this instance ? 

1. The aphorism संख्याया अवयवे तयप् (5'2'42) specifies that तयप् can be affixed only to संख्याशब्द-s. Well, our base word पञ्च is a संख्याशब्द. 
2. But appropriateness of an affix has to be also appropriate for the meaning to be conveyed. The aphorism संख्याया अवयवे तयप् (5'2'42) suggests that the affix तयप् would lend a meaning of अवयव when affixed to a संख्याशब्द. 
3. But what is अवयव ?
4. In Apte's dictionary I get => अवयवः [अवयूयते कार्यद्रव्येण संबध्यते, अव-यु-कर्मणि-अप्] 1 limb (of the body); मुखावयवलूनां ताम् R.12.43, Amaru. 45,51; a member (in general); कस्मिंश्चिदपि जीवति नन्दान्व- यावयेव Mu.1. -2 A part, portion (as of a whole); पदे न वर्णा विद्यन्ते वर्णेष्ववयवा न च Bhartṛi; द्रव्याणां केनचिदवयवेन Dk. 61; क्तेनाहोरात्रावयवाः P.II.1.45; II.1.46. -3 A member or a component part of a logical argument or syllogism, (these are five :- प्रतिज्ञा, हेतु, उदाहरण, उपनय and निगमन). -4 The body. -5 A component, constituent, ingredient (in general), as of a compound &c. -6 A means (साधन, उपकरण). 

1. From "क्तेनाहोरात्रावयवाः P.II.1.45; II.1.46", it seems अवयवः is also a grammatical r as defined in (2'1'45 & 46).

क्तेनाहोरात्रावयवाः does not define avayava.

It means parts.

The detailed process will be longer.

To cut long thing short, I would say, the quote वृत्तयः पञ्चतय्यः ... (योगसूत्रम् 1'5) can be translated as वृत्ति-s are five-fold. If there be a mathematical set of वृत्ति-s, the set would have five elements, factors, अवयव-s. The five elements of this "वृत्ति"-set are detailed in the next योगसूत्रम् 1'6, viz. प्रमाण-विपर्यय-विकल्प-निद्रा-स्मृतयः 

Hope, this helps.

--

[Hnbhat B.R.]

पञ्चतय+ड़ी = लशक्वतद्धिते(१।३।८)। ङ् is  इत्, तास्य लोपः1|3|7  

पञ्चतय + ई > यस्येति च 6|4|148 भस्याङ्गस्य अकारस्य लोपः।

पञ्चतय् + ई > पञ्चतयी।

पञ्चतयी + जस् > "चुटू" 1|3|7 ज् इत्, तस्य लोपः 1|3|7 

पञ्चतयी + अस् >  "इको यणचि" 6-1-77 यण्

पञ्चतय्य् + अस् > > पञ्चतय्यस् "[ससजुषो रुँ 8|2|66 स् >  र्

पञ्चतय्यरु > "उपदेशेऽजनुनासिक इत्" 1|3|2,    तास्य लोपः1|3|7

पञ्चतय्यर् > खरवसानयोर्विसर्जनीयः 8|3|15 इति विसर्गः रेफस्य विसर्गः

पञ्चतय्यः।

[S. L. Abhyankar]

आयरीन्-महोदये !

In my post "Studying अष्टाध्यायी - How and Why ?" I included derivation of the word अकुर्वत as was provided in September 2013 by श्री. नित्यानन्द मिश्र.  The word अकुर्वत gets derived, starting from the धातुः डुकृञ् at the end of some 16 process-steps. 

Points, which came up in the present discussion about the word पञ्चतय्यः have been mostly covered in that post. Would you please go through that post and respond ?