Should I learn Vyakarana at all?

[SriKanth!]

Respected Members,

I started learning Sanskrit through Samskrita Bharathi and then
started reading other Samskrit books, journals, magazines etc. I could
fairly read and understand (though not been able to write properly
yet) Samskirt.

I think the next step for me is to start memorizing Amarakosa, Panini
Sutrapata and then planning to get into Vyakarana. Is this correct
route?

As I look forward, I am boggled down by the enormity of Sanskrit
Vyakarana and now I have started to think whether I really need to
study Vyakarana at all. As it seems it would require several years of
dedication and hardwork and a learned Guru (I have to search for her/
him yet), which I am willing to do if its worth it.

I have no intention to become a Pundit and write Samskrit poetry. The
reason why I study Samskrit is to study, comprehend and enjoy Kavyas,
Itihasa - Puranas, write and converse in Samskrit flawlessly. Is
Vyakarana must for this?

I feel like if I keep on reading simple sanskrit magazines like
(chandamama, sudharma, rachana, sampratam, vaak, sambhashana sandesha
etc), prabhanda - nibhanda, text books etc, I could get a fair grip of
Samskrit without studying Vyakarana.

What is the learned member's opinion on this. Please guide me.

Thanks,
Srikanth.

[hnbhat B.R.]

To be frank, if you want to learn VyakaraNa you can learn VyakaraNa. If you are satisfied with reading Chandamama, Sudharma etc. you can continue to do so.

"Necessity is the mother of invention." hold good in in this case also. If you are in need of learning VyakaraNa, you have to learn VyakaraNa only and nothing else. You will reep as you sow. If there is not necessity or need, no efforts would accomplish the goal.

There are many sites offering online teaching in Grammar, and language in general in addition to word generators, form generators and so many tools without learning grammar you can gain knowledge of the Sanskrit words. Choice is yours and the proper choice at proper time will help you if you want success in your endeavor.

-- 

Dr. Hari Narayana Bhat B.R. M.A., Ph.D.,
Research Scholar,

Ecole française d'Extrême-OrientCentre de Pondichéry

16 & 19, Rue Dumas

Pondichéry - 605 001

[vishvAs vAsuki]

Dear shrIkAnt,

I think you have neglected one reason to study vyAkaraNa. (I myself started reading bits of laghu kaumudI only a few days ago; and I am not into kAvya at all.) It is its stunning beauty. If you are the kind of person who enjoys the sound of things neatly falling into place while reading Euclid or Newton, you will enjoy vyAkaraNa for its own sake.


--
vishvAs
[S. v.]

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "samskrita" group.
To post to this group, send email to sams...@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to samskrita+...@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/samskrita?hl=en.

[Vasu Srinivasan]

shrIkaanta-varya

having gone through the same route to Samskritam my feeling is - there is no point being intimidated by the enormity. How muchever you learn, there will always be more to know, but as they say: lets take it one janma at a time :-)

But Fact is, study of Sanskritam is much easier/better than it was 20-30 years ago with availability of so many pdfs, audio lessons, access to books, printed and rare etc. Sanskritam has never been this accessible (to public) than in the last 10 years (of the recent past).

Learning for learning's sake and passion alone can be the guide - which you seem to have plenty already.

Given that, I would say audio lessons like that of Siddhanta Kaumudi, Smt Sowmya Krishnapur (ggss-lessons.org), Swami Tattvavidananda's LSK (available from Arsha Vidya Gurukulam), BR Shankara's Panini are of immense help to immerse oneself in. Also there are several books available in shops like MLBD etc which can be used for reference etc. My favorite route has been the audio lessons, I can listen to it how many times ever I want, without letting others sense how dumb I am, and not straining the teacher's vocal chords ;-). Of course one can't ask questions to the mp3 player, but thats why this forum is for!

--
Regards,
Vasu Srinivasan
-----------------------------------
vagartham.blogspot.com
vasya10.wordpress.com

[धनंजय वैद्य <deejayvaidya@yahoo.com>]

> I feel like if I keep on reading simple sanskrit magazines like
> (chandamama, sudharma, rachana, sampratam, vaak, sambhashana sandesha
> etc), prabhanda - nibhanda, text books etc, I could get a fair grip of
> Samskrit without studying Vyakarana.

That is probably corrrect.

The grammarian पतञ्जलि mentions those who say that : वेदम् अधीत्य
त्वरिताः वक्तारः भवन्ति , वेदात् नः वैदिकाः शब्दाः सिद्धाः लोकात् च
लौकिकाः । and he does not contradict this.

I.e., vaidika usage can be known by learning the veda, and correct
laukika usage can be known from the practice of common usage.

However, note that non-native adult learners of any language (even
modern languages) often cannot get this internal "instinctive"
knowledge of the correctness of usage - native speakers of any
language that learned the language as babies seem to have that
"instinctive" sense of correctness of usage. Therefore we, being non-
native adult learners of saMskRta, may benefit from learning grammar.

There is no need that the grammar be the system given by पाणिनि. Any
system that helps you get the correct usage will do. Grammarians of
the पाणिनि tradition agree that his is only a system of convenience to
get to the correct usages. Once the correct usages are attained, the
system has no significance. (उपेयप्रतिपत्त्यर्था उपाया अव्यवस्थिता: ।
They are only ways to get to the ends, other than that the means have
no standing.)

धनंजय

[murthy]

Dear Sri Srikanth,
My view in this matter is as follows:
Sanskrit grammar has two aspects: syntactical and derivational. Derivational
aspect is by and large unique to Sanskrit. In derivational part of grammar,
you learn how one could derive say "raamasya" from the stem "raama" using
Panini's theorem-like rules embedded in his sutras.
If one gets a good knowledge of syntactic grammar and learns by heart
declensions of important noun paradigms and conjugations of important verb
paradigms, and one has ready in hand some standard books of grammar for
reference and a good dictionary (Apte's) Eng->Sans and Sans->Eng. one need
not bother to go to learn Panini's grammar. You need to learn Panini if you
want to specialize in Sanskrit Grammar.
Often by straigh away trying to go to Panini, one may get lost and learn a
little of Panini and much less of Sanskrit.
Regards
Murthy

[Vimala Sarma]

Dear Murthy Mahodaya and SriKanth Mahodaya,
Yes but the derivation of stems from roots is not unique to Sanskrit as
people with a background in comparative philology know (see ancient Greek,
Latin etc) - like the Indologists who rendered Sanskrit grammar into
Western concepts very accurately. Good starting places and references -
MacDonell's grammar, Whitney's roots, Speijer's syntax.
Vimala

[Vimala Sarma]

Dear Srikanth
Even to read and understand properly Kavyas and Itihasa a good knowledge of
grammar is necessary. What to say about "speaking Sanskrit flawlessly"?
After years of learning grammar I cannot speak it naturally and stumble upon
even basic simple sentences. This is because I am learning it relatively
late in life.
Vimala

-----Original Message-----
From: sams...@googlegroups.com [mailto:sams...@googlegroups.com] On
Behalf Of SriKanth!
Sent: Tuesday, 6 September 2011 5:08 PM
To: samskrita
Subject: [Samskrita] Should I learn Vyakarana at all?

Respected Members,

Thanks,
Srikanth.

--

[kali]

Hari OM!

namaste ji|

As a Samskrita Bharati volunteer in Chennai, my humble suggestion in
this regard is as follows :

Yes, you need to study at least the basic grammar like Sandhi
Prakaranam, Samasa Prakaranam, Krut TaddhitantaH, etc to augment your
quest to proceed further. The simplest route is known to you
already ! Continue with Samskrita Bharatis regular sikshana kendra
Gita Sopana classes thru levels 1 to 3 or join and complete Prevsha
thru Kovida both of which might take about two years to complete. The
SB lessons are organized in a very simple and elegant way so as to
keep the aspirant's enthu in place!

best regards,
kalivaradhan
SB Chennai

[hnbhat B.R.]

There is no need for correct usage anyway as we are ourselves are the speakers of the language. It is the usage on which Panini had based his grammar and we are the users of the language.

If we use anything new we invent, some Panini will appear to explain them.

Even in the Vedic times, Mahabhashya had attested this. There is an injunction that a Brahmana should not use erroneous language. ब्राह्मणेन न म्लेच्छितवै नापभाषितव्यं 'म्लेच्छो ह वा एष अपशब्द इति। meaning is clear. This was meant for ब्राह्मण-s who wanted use it in Yaga-s. याज्ञे कर्मणि

in continuation:

 न च अद्यत्वे कः चित् अपि व्यवहरति ।

Nobody is using it today. (at Patanjali's time)

(प-१२; अकि-१,८.२३-१०.३; रो-१,३५-३९; भा-४३/६२) केवलम् ऋषिसम्प्रदायः धर्मः इति कृत्वा याज्ञिकाः शास्त्रेण अनुविदधते ।

Only preservation the heritage of the sages is the धर्म for them and the याज्ञिक people learn शास्त्र, This too, as an necessity for the यागकर्म - 

(प-१३; अकि-१,१०.४-११.१४; रो-१,३९-४२; भा-५२/५४) ते तत्रभवन्तः यत् वा नः तत् वा नः इति प्रोयोक्तव्ये यर् वा णः तर् वा णः इति प्रयुञ्जते याज्ञे पुनः कर्मणि न अपभाषन्ते ।

Only in the sacrifices they do not use अपशब्द-s, Otherwise, in normal usage, they used words as they liked. 

So there is no need to learn Grammar to learn language. By usage one can learn the language as Murthy and Dhananjaya Vaidya have already suggested.

(प-३; अकि-१,१.१४-२.२; रो-१,८-१४; भा-१/१७) कानि पुनः शब्दानुशासनस्य प्रयोजनानि ।

It was the time of Patanjali itself, he had to devote one whole day of teaching पस्पशाह्निक to convince his pupils the necessity of learning व्याकरण. It was 2000 years ago. The reasons and objects of learning enumerated and explained by him beginning with 

(प-३; अकि-१,१.१४-२.२; रो-१,८-१४; भा-१/१७) कानि पुनः शब्दानुशासनस्य प्रयोजनानि ।

(प-३; अकि-१,१.१४-२.२; रो-१,८-१४; भा-२/१७) रक्षोहागमलघ्वसन्देहाः प्रोयोजनम् ।

valid only 2000 years ago, are outdated today. Therefore the question never rises why I should learn व्याकरण. According to modern linguistics, I had somewhere read that there is no errors in the use of language, but only dialectal deviations. As noticed by Patanjali, he had already noticed many at his time. 

(प-१२; अकि-१,८.२३-१०.३; रो-१,३५-३९; भा-५३/६२) शवतिः गतिकर्मा कम्बोजेषु एव भाषितः भवति ।

(प-१२; अकि-१,८.२३-१०.३; रो-१,३५-३९; भा-५४/६२) विकारे एनम् आर्याः भाषन्ते शवः इति ।

(प-१२; अकि-१,८.२३-१०.३; रो-१,३५-३९; भा-५५/६२) हम्मतिः सुराष्ट्रेषु रंहतिः प्राच्यमध्येषु गमिम् एव तु आर्याः प्रयुञ्जते ।

(प-१२; अकि-१,८.२३-१०.३; रो-१,३५-३९; भा-५६/६२) दातिः लवनार्थे प्राच्येषु दात्रम् उदीच्येषु ।

(प-१२; अकि-१,८.२३-१०.३; रो-१,३५-३९; भा-५७/६२) ये च अपि एते भवतः अप्रयुक्ताः अभिमताः शब्दाः एतेषाम् अपि प्रयोगः दृश्यते 

If you feel this usage is strange, it might have been used some where else. 

कः च इदानीम् अन्यः भवज्जातीयकः पुरुषः शब्दानाम् प्रयोगे साधुः स्यात् ?

It is the users that justify the usage of a language, and not the Grammar. None other than the user of the language can determine the validity of the usage.

And many more reasoning can be found from the Great Lectures महाभाष्य.

-- 

[Rajagopalan Ayilam]

Dear Srikanthji,

When I started learning Sanskrit, I was also confused like you whether to go ahead with a detailed study of Grammar, or partial study focussing on other topics like kavya, alamkara etc. I studied Sanskrit at School level and was not in touch with the language for almost 13 years. My interested started again after reading a translation of Bhartruhari's neetishatakam. Then Kalidasa. Then I wanted to enjoy their works in original form, for which I started studying Vyakarana. There are also the beuty of Panini's work attracted me. But soon I realised that if want to master Vyakarna and then study Kalidasa and others, that will remain as dream only. As mentioned by Murthyji, I by hearted Sabdamanjari and Dhatumanjari and basics about Kararkas and few other basics. With the help of a Guru( I am forutunate to have a good one) I started reading Kalidasa's works. Initially it was very difficult. But with several "avruthi", I am now able to enjoy those Kavyas. After kalidasa I started Bharavi, Magha, some works on alamkara.....and I think the list goes on. Recently from this forum I got Bhallatashatakm and Subhashitaratnakosa, which I am yet to go through.

So I think you need to decide what is that which is most attractive in Samskrit and work for that.


A.S.Rajagopalan

[SriKanth!]

सर्वेभ्य: नमस्ते

भवद्भि सुवचनै: विश्रान्तिं अनुभवामि | एतस्मिन श्रेष्टतरे परिषदि
संस्कृत व्याकरण शिक्षण: किमर्थम् करणीय: इति प्रष्टुं कंञ्चित् भयं
आसीत् एव | संस्कृतभाषां पठने कोपि यत्न अहम् न कृतवान् इति कृपया मा
मन्यतां | संस्कृतभारत्यां कक्षायां संस्कृताध्ययने प्राय: वर्षद्वयम्
अतीतं | आधुना द्वितीय गीतासोपाने पठन् अस्मि |

व्याकरणं पठितुम् इच्छामि एव कमपि प्रयत्नं कुर्वन् अस्मि एव | किन्तु
तत्र बहुकष्टो जायते इति सर्वत्र श्रुतवान् द्रष्टवान् | एतं प्रयत्नं
मया शक्यं वा न वा कति वर्षाणि आवश्यकं स्यात् आदि विचारे अहम्
बद्धचित्त: | इदानीं अहम् मन्ये "अध्ययनं अध्ययनस्यकृते एव मनोभावम् एव
मार्गदर्शकम" आदि चिन्तनं एव अत्र आवश्यकम् सद्भावम् इति |

मम संस्कृत लेखनं दोषरहितं नास्ति कृपया क्षम्यतां |

धन्योस्मि
श्रीकान्त:

Respected scholars, my intention is not to waste your time, I didn't
want to do something with doubts in mind, so I spoke my mind here. I
appreciate your responses very much, each one was useful in guiding my
mindset. I understood studying grammar is not a must but out of self-
interest one can go through it without giving much stress to the
outcome.

Whoa, It took me one hour to write this email in Sanskrit having
V.S.Apte's dictionary at hand :)

Thank you.

[Anand Ghurye]

Dear Friends ,

I have slightly different take on this subject .

Given below is my understanding .

Six vedangas are the precondition to learning of Vedas .

The six vedangas are

 1. Shiksha (s'iks.a-): phonetics, phonology and morphophonology (sandhi)
   2. Kalpa (kalpa): ritual
   3. Vyakarana (vya-karan.a): grammar
   4. Nirukta (nirukta): etymology
   5. Chandas (chandas): meter
   6. Jyotisha (jyotis.a): Knowledge of subject / attitude to learn

Vedas is the body of knowledge that leads us to realisation in time to come .

To properly study and practise this body of knowledge , precondition is learning six vedangas . So learning the grammar is a must . If you do not learn Vyakarana and Nirukta how do you make sense of any sentence in language or get to the meaning of it ?

Having said that , what should be the sequence of learning the vedangas or should they all be learned simultaneously ? My opinion is that all should be learnt simultaneously . see , hear  , speak , do , understand ,make mistakes  and continue the loop . This way it is fun to learn , applied immediately and learnt automatically .

The way Sanskrit was taught in my school days was sequential , boring , and tedious and far removed from reality . It was only in higher studies when I began to learn nyaya etc that I realised the beauty of the language .

Now we run a course for spoken business english for graduates and 12 th standard students using Natural Language processing algorithms and neither grammar nor nirukta pose any problem . 

I will like to hear views of all learned members from the forum .

Regards ,

Anand Ghurye






 astronomy for calendar issues, such as auspicious days for

l.com>

--

You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "samskrita" group.
To post to this group, send email to sams...@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to samskrita+...@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/samskrita?hl=en.

--
Regards ,

Anand K. Ghurye

[Arvind_Kolhatkar]

Srikant,

This is my 2-paise worth view on the question you posed, derived from
my own experience. You say your motivation behind the study of
Samskrit is 'to comprehend and enjoy Kavyas, Itihasa - Puranas, write
and converse in Samskrit flawlessly.'

'write and converse in Samskrit flawlessly' you may do if you are
really keen on that - and even that can come, at least at a not-too-
erudite level, with a little practice. But that is not in any way
connected with your other objective: 'comprehend and enjoy Kavyas,
Itihasa - Puranas'. If between these two, you are really aiming for
the latter as an immediate goal, so much school grammar as is
prescribed in high school textbooks, is quite enough. You do not need
to master intricacies of Panini for that. Look at any standard
textbook - like Bhandarkar's classic school text-book - as a model.
Bhandarkar just explains the basic grammar, enough to understand any
text in Classical Sanskrit.

Again, please do not 'memorize' even that grammar. Certainly go
through it diligently as often as you can but do not feel daunted by
it. Start reading simple texts, with the help of a good translation.
You will soon realize that you are getting a hang of the language.
(Here, those with an Indian vernacular as a mother tongue have an
advantage in that they are already familiar with several Sanskrit
words, through their mother tongues.) Do not spend too much time in
'memorizing' rules of Sandhi and Samaasa - they are really intuitive
in nature.

I cannot overstress the importance of reading and understanding what
you read (with the help, if needed, of a good translation) as the best
way to feel a level of comfort and familiarity with the language so
that you do not feel daunted by it.

You also have the aim of being able to converse and write in
Sanskrit. This is your individual choice. I, for one, have never
felt the need or the practical use thereof, perhaps because I am not a
professional or an academic Sanskritist but just an amateur, who is
happy understanding what he reads.

Arvind Kolhatkar. Toronto, September 07, 2011.

[Geeta]

Dear Srikanth

Check the lessons on this site http://murthygss.tripod.com/samskrutasopanam_1.htm. I think you will like it. It will take you toward your first goal of reading literature with the required emphasis on grammar. The exercises in Sanskrita Bharati's Geeta Sopanam and Bhasha Praveshah offer further practice and with their emphasis on spoken Sanskrit will take you to your second goal of speaking Sanskrit without effort. Another very useful site is chitrapurmath.net.

I have now completed half of Mr Murthy's lessons and have just started on Sanskrita Bharati's books. And am having a fantastic time. :)

Best wishes
Geeta


Sent from my iPad

[vishvAs vAsuki]

2011/9/6 hnbhat B.R. <hnbh...@gmail.com>

There is no need for correct usage anyway as we are ourselves are the speakers of the language.

एतत् संभाषणं बहु ज्ञानदं अस्ति। परन्तु उपरि स्थितं इदं वाक्यं जीर्णं न गतं। किमर्थं वयं संस्कृतं पुनर्जीवितव्यं सामान्यभाषा-रूपेण इति प्रश्नः पृष्टव्यः - दोषरहित-यज्ञाय वा अस्माकं भास्कर-सदृशैः कीर्तियुक्तैः पूर्वजैः‌ सह सामीप्यं च स्फूर्तिं अनुभोक्तुं?

संस्कृतभारत्या संपर्केन तु तेषां सन्देशः 'दोष-रहितः संस्कृतः विशेष-भाषा-प्रयोग-रीतिः स्वीकृता चेत् (उदाहरणाय 'स्म', 'भवत्'-शब्द-प्रयोगः)  सुलभः' इति मन्ये।

--
विश्वासः

[vishvAs vAsuki]

Whoa, It took me one hour to write this email in Sanskrit having
V.S.Apte's dictionary at hand :)

एतत् न भवितव्यः इति मया द्वौ उपायौ प्रयुक्तौ - १] दैनिकः प्रयोगाभ्यासः लेखनेन, संभाषणेन च, २] दोष-भयं वर्जयेत् - अन्ये भाषा-दोषान् प्रतिपादयन्ति चेत् अस्मत्-लाभाय  एव खलु? मयि एषां पण्डितानां अग्रे मम अज्ञानस्य प्रदर्शणे सङ्कोचः नास्ति ;-)।

--
सस्नेहः,
विश्वासः

[SriKanth!]

श्रीमन् वासु श्रीनिवाशन् महाभागा,

अस्मिन् सप्ताहान्तरे अत्र भवता दत्तं गीतगिविन्दसंस्कृतसङ्गस्य जालपुटम्
(ggss-lessons.org) मया द्रष्टं कौतुकात् पठितम् च | एतानि उत्तमानि
पाठानि तथा चलनचित्राणि कुत्रापि न दृश्यते | एतानि पाठानि मामिव
अशिक्षितम् छात्रम् अपि व्याकरणे अभिरुचिम् वर्धयति |

तदनन्तरम् भवता उक्तं तत्त्वविदानन्दास्वामिना कृतं DVD रूपेण लभ्दानि
लघुसिद्धान्तकौमुदी पाठानि अपि मया क्रीतं | पठनीयम् बहु अस्ति |
भवत: महदुपकारस्य बहव: धन्यवादा: |

धन्योस्मि
श्रीकान्त:

[Vasu Srinivasan]

shrIkaanta varya

abhinandaanaani tebhyaH, ye recording kRutavantaH ca anyeShaam kRute anubhaavayitavantaH | api aachaaryebhyaH |

the credit goes to those who recorded and shared it or made it available for others.

bhavataH vyAkaraNa paTanam siddham bhavatu |

--

You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "samskrita" group.
To post to this group, send email to sams...@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to samskrita+...@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/samskrita?hl=en.

[Shreyas P. Munshi]

Respected Kalivardhana Sir,
I am taking the liberty of writing to you because I read your mail to a student that you are an SB teacher.
In the first half of July this year, I attended at Delhi the SB's 14day sanskrit sambhaashaNa aawasiya shibir at Mandoli (Delhi NCR). But how to continue practising? With whom to converse? There are no SB's centres in north western Mumbai (Andheri area to be precise; there is a lot of SB activity in Mulund and Thane area but they are very far off for me for time and travel and cost).If i dont practice, i might forget what I have learnt, no? Kindly advise.You must have many people asking this question!
Thnx and regards...Shreyas

On Wed, 07 Sep 2011 06:47:35 +0530 wrote

--

You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "samskrita" group.

To post to this group, send email to sams...@googlegroups.com.

To unsubscribe from this group, send email to samskrita+...@googlegroups.com.

For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/samskrita?hl=en.

____________________________

Shreyas Munshi
shreya...@rediffmail.com
C202, Mandar Apartments, 120 Ft D P Road,
Seven Bungalows, Versova, Mumbai 400 061
Tel Res: (22) 26364290 Mob: 981 981 8197


Treat yourself at a restaurant, spa, resort and much more with Rediff Deal ho jaye!