Talk proposals for Erlang Factory Lite in December?
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Martin Rehfeld
Sep 15, 2014, 6:25:19 AM9/15/14
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Hi guys,
as I met a lot of you at last year's Erlang Factory Lite mini-conference, I was thinking maybe some of you dug deeper into Erlang and might have discovered something they would like to share?
Erlang Factory Lite Berlin will happen again on 4 December and if you feel like it you should submit a talk proposal by 10 October HERE
More on the conference: http://www.erlang-factory.com/berlin2014 (not much to see yet).
I will also try to get a special RUG-B deal for tickets again, as we had last year.
Cheers,
Martin
Marta Paciorkowska
Sep 15, 2014, 10:03:14 AM9/15/14
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15-09-2014 12:25 użytkownik "Martin Rehfeld" <martin....@gmail.com> napisał:
>
> Hi guys,
Martin, it would be very nice if your choice of wording did not exclude potentially interested people. Unless you really mean only guys, to which I can only quietly facepalm in the presence of my houseplants and furniture.
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Oliver Thamm
Sep 15, 2014, 10:16:59 AM9/15/14
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I am sure there is a more polite way of reminding people of gender
issues in foreign languages.
Tom Stuart
Sep 15, 2014, 10:21:42 AM9/15/14
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Please don't tone-police. http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/Tone_argument
Oliver Thamm
Sep 15, 2014, 10:47:50 AM9/15/14
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Wow, OK, I am not so familiar with all this. I try to behave my
best, promise. It just doesn't read as if Martin intended to harm
anyone's feelings.
I just experienced this myself on Ruby events. Having to think about each and every term that leaves one's mouth gets harder the more one talks. Especially in foreign languages, where rules of political correctness and in this case feminism might differ and are even subject to change.
So, I think, to make other people (including me) aware of the correct gender terms, an understanding, tolerant and supportive way might work best. But that's just how I feel.
I just experienced this myself on Ruby events. Having to think about each and every term that leaves one's mouth gets harder the more one talks. Especially in foreign languages, where rules of political correctness and in this case feminism might differ and are even subject to change.
So, I think, to make other people (including me) aware of the correct gender terms, an understanding, tolerant and supportive way might work best. But that's just how I feel.
Alex Coles
Sep 15, 2014, 11:36:16 AM9/15/14
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I disagree. This is hardly the most clear-cut of transgressions, so it would be better to tread lightly, educate, and perhaps even consider intent.
A quick Google search will yield a lot of decent articles on the subject. There are also Marta's slides from the August RUG::B. Why not point to those?
Matthias Viehweger
Sep 15, 2014, 11:38:01 AM9/15/14
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Hi!
On Mon, Sep 15, 2014 at 04:03:11PM +0200, Marta Paciorkowska wrote:
> 15-09-2014 12:25 użytkownik "Martin Rehfeld" <martin....@gmail.com>
> napisał:
> >
> > Hi guys,
>
> Martin, it would be very nice if your choice of wording did not exclude
> potentially interested people. Unless you really mean only guys, to which I
> can only quietly facepalm in the presence of my houseplants and furniture.
As far as I know "guys" (in this form) is just a generalization. While
I agree that "Hi everyone" sounds more inclusive, it certainly is not.
Both are - to my best knowledge - adressing a crowd of unspecified
gender. [1, 2]
Coming from a language that has gendered nouns, this has surprised me as
well. Whenever I come across something like that, I try to keep in mind
that the levensthein distance between idiotic and idiomatic is only 2. [3]
This does not invalidate your feeling, you shouldn't feel excluded.
I just think that in this case, translations got the better of us.
Cheers,
Matthias
[1] Usually, guys. Informal. persons of either sex; people
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/guys
[2] A form of address for a group of male persons or a group of mixed
male and female persons.
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/guys
[3] lame attempt to lighten the mood.
--
http://kronn.de
http://github.com/kronn - @der_kronn
On Mon, Sep 15, 2014 at 04:03:11PM +0200, Marta Paciorkowska wrote:
> 15-09-2014 12:25 użytkownik "Martin Rehfeld" <martin....@gmail.com>
> napisał:
> >
> > Hi guys,
>
> Martin, it would be very nice if your choice of wording did not exclude
> potentially interested people. Unless you really mean only guys, to which I
> can only quietly facepalm in the presence of my houseplants and furniture.
I agree that "Hi everyone" sounds more inclusive, it certainly is not.
Both are - to my best knowledge - adressing a crowd of unspecified
gender. [1, 2]
Coming from a language that has gendered nouns, this has surprised me as
well. Whenever I come across something like that, I try to keep in mind
that the levensthein distance between idiotic and idiomatic is only 2. [3]
This does not invalidate your feeling, you shouldn't feel excluded.
I just think that in this case, translations got the better of us.
Cheers,
Matthias
[1] Usually, guys. Informal. persons of either sex; people
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/guys
[2] A form of address for a group of male persons or a group of mixed
male and female persons.
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/guys
[3] lame attempt to lighten the mood.
--
http://kronn.de
http://github.com/kronn - @der_kronn
Tom Stuart
Sep 15, 2014, 11:47:17 AM9/15/14
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I agree that the fact people aren't necessarily speaking their native languages makes this more complicated, but tone-policing is tone-policing, and intent doesn't affect the extent to which people are affected.
Matthias Viehweger
Sep 15, 2014, 11:57:25 AM9/15/14
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Hi!
On Mon, 15 Sep 2014 08:36:16 -0700 (PDT)
Alex Coles <alex....@gmail.com> wrote:
> A quick Google search will yield a lot of decent articles on the
> subject. There are also Marta's slides from the August RUG::B. Why
> not point to those?
I cannot find the slides you hinted at, Alex. A link would be highly
appreciated.
Thanks,
Matthias
On Mon, 15 Sep 2014 08:36:16 -0700 (PDT)
Alex Coles <alex....@gmail.com> wrote:
> A quick Google search will yield a lot of decent articles on the
> subject. There are also Marta's slides from the August RUG::B. Why
> not point to those?
appreciated.
Thanks,
Matthias
Marta Paciorkowska
Sep 15, 2014, 12:04:27 PM9/15/14
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I assumed people would know the meaning of the words they use.
Having said that, I will leave you all to your discussion on my tone (which is obviously more important than self-reflection on why I was the only one to point out the problem), wishing you emails full of wit, entertainment and happiness.
Alex Coles
Sep 15, 2014, 12:04:39 PM9/15/14
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Am Montag, 15. September 2014 17:57:25 UTC+2 schrieb Matthias Viehweger:
I cannot find the slides you hinted at, Alex. A link would be highly
appreciated.
Duilio Ruggiero
Sep 15, 2014, 12:44:50 PM9/15/14
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Hi!
The tone used by Marta wasn't that aggressive.
I agree with Marta that we shouldn't use "guys" for a group of mixed male and female persons.
To Marta: the word "guys" is often used in the US by girls, usually teens, to address to a group of girls (and yes, this is sad).
I agree with Oliver on one thing: the use of a more tolerant and supportive language has best outcome, but that's because people addressed aggressively tend to react in an oppositive way (but, as I said, Marta wasn't aggressive in this case).
I agree with Tom that we should avoid tone-policing. Sometime can happen that someone use a tone too aggressive to react to something that is considered inappropriate or offensive, but using tone-policing you are weakening the "why" of that reaction, exposing them to an unjustified attack.
--
Duilio Ruggiero
E-mail: duilio....@gmail.com
Mobile: +49 157 50875177 (Germany)
Mobile: +39 329 2511822 (Italy)
Skype: sinetris
Tobias Pfeiffer
Sep 15, 2014, 1:09:36 PM9/15/14
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Hello everyone,
I'd appreciate the usage of more inclusive words on this list. Over the
past two years or so the diversity of the RUG-B has improved greatly
(with a lot of credit to Rails Girls (Berlin/Summer of code)) which is a
joy to my heart. Still there certainly still is a lot of room for
improvements.
I do recommend everyone to have a look at Marta's slides from her
lightning talk: https://speakerdeck.com/xamebax/dont-use-the-g-word-s
Cheers,
Tobi
On 09/15/2014 06:42 PM, Duilio Ruggiero wrote:
> Hi!
>
> The tone used by Marta wasn't that aggressive.
> I agree with Marta that we shouldn't use "guys" for a group of mixed
> male and female persons.
> To Marta: the word "guys" is often used in the US by girls, usually
> teens, to address to a group of girls (and yes, this is sad).
> I agree with Oliver on one thing: the use of a more tolerant and
> supportive language has best outcome, but that's because people
> addressed aggressively tend to react in an oppositive way (but, as I
> said, Marta wasn't aggressive in this case).
> I agree with Tom that we should avoid tone-policing. Sometime can happen
> that someone use a tone too aggressive to react to something that is
> considered inappropriate or offensive, but using tone-policing you are
> weakening the "why" of that reaction, exposing them to an unjustified
> attack.
>
> --
> Duilio Ruggiero
> E-mail: duilio....@gmail.com <mailto:duilio....@gmail.com>
>>> <http://groups.google.com/group/rug-b?hl=de> or
>>> http://www.rug-b.de <http://www.rug-b.de/>
>>> > For more options, visit
>>> https://groups.google.com/d/__optout
>>> <https://groups.google.com/d/optout>.
>>> <http://groups.google.com/group/rug-b?hl=de> or
>>> http://www.rug-b.de <http://www.rug-b.de/>
>>> For more options, visit
>>> https://groups.google.com/d/__optout
>>> <https://groups.google.com/d/optout>.
>> <http://groups.google.com/group/rug-b?hl=de> or
>> http://www.rug-b.de <http://www.rug-b.de/>
>> For more options, visit
>> https://groups.google.com/d/__optout
>> <https://groups.google.com/d/optout>.
>> <mailto:rug-b-un...@googlegroups.com>
>> <mailto:rug-b-un...@googlegroups.com>
www.pragtob.info
I'd appreciate the usage of more inclusive words on this list. Over the
past two years or so the diversity of the RUG-B has improved greatly
(with a lot of credit to Rails Girls (Berlin/Summer of code)) which is a
joy to my heart. Still there certainly still is a lot of room for
improvements.
I do recommend everyone to have a look at Marta's slides from her
lightning talk: https://speakerdeck.com/xamebax/dont-use-the-g-word-s
Cheers,
Tobi
On 09/15/2014 06:42 PM, Duilio Ruggiero wrote:
> Hi!
>
> The tone used by Marta wasn't that aggressive.
> I agree with Marta that we shouldn't use "guys" for a group of mixed
> male and female persons.
> To Marta: the word "guys" is often used in the US by girls, usually
> teens, to address to a group of girls (and yes, this is sad).
> I agree with Oliver on one thing: the use of a more tolerant and
> supportive language has best outcome, but that's because people
> addressed aggressively tend to react in an oppositive way (but, as I
> said, Marta wasn't aggressive in this case).
> I agree with Tom that we should avoid tone-policing. Sometime can happen
> that someone use a tone too aggressive to react to something that is
> considered inappropriate or offensive, but using tone-policing you are
> weakening the "why" of that reaction, exposing them to an unjustified
> attack.
>
> --
> Duilio Ruggiero
> Mobile: +49 157 50875177 (Germany)
> Mobile: +39 329 2511822 (Italy)
> Skype: sinetris
>
> Il giorno 15/set/2014, alle ore 17:47, Tom Stuart <t...@stuart.berlin
> <mailto:t...@stuart.berlin>> ha scritto:
> Mobile: +39 329 2511822 (Italy)
> Skype: sinetris
>
> Il giorno 15/set/2014, alle ore 17:47, Tom Stuart <t...@stuart.berlin
>
>> I agree that the fact people aren't necessarily speaking their native
>> languages makes this more complicated, but tone-policing is
>> tone-policing, and intent doesn't affect the extent to which people
>> are affected.
>>
>> On 15 September 2014 17:36, Alex Coles <alex....@gmail.com
>> I agree that the fact people aren't necessarily speaking their native
>> languages makes this more complicated, but tone-policing is
>> tone-policing, and intent doesn't affect the extent to which people
>> are affected.
>>
>> On 15 September 2014 17:36, Alex Coles <alex....@gmail.com
>> <mailto:alex....@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>
>> I disagree. This is hardly the most clear-cut of transgressions,
>> so it would be better to tread lightly, educate, and perhaps even
>> consider intent.
>>
>> A quick Google search will yield a lot of decent articles on the
>> subject. There are also Marta's slides from the August RUG::B. Why
>> not point to those?
>>
>> Am Montag, 15. September 2014 16:21:42 UTC+2 schrieb Tom Stuart:
>>
>> Please don't
>> tone-police. http://__geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/__Tone_argument
>>
>> I disagree. This is hardly the most clear-cut of transgressions,
>> so it would be better to tread lightly, educate, and perhaps even
>> consider intent.
>>
>> A quick Google search will yield a lot of decent articles on the
>> subject. There are also Marta's slides from the August RUG::B. Why
>> not point to those?
>>
>> Am Montag, 15. September 2014 16:21:42 UTC+2 schrieb Tom Stuart:
>>
>> Please don't
>> <http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/Tone_argument>
>>
>> On 15 September 2014 16:16, Oliver Thamm
>> <ollid...@googlemail.com> wrote:
>>
>> I am sure there is a more polite way of reminding people
>> of gender issues in foreign languages.
>>
>>
>> Am 15.09.2014 um 16:03 schrieb Marta Paciorkowska:
>>>
>>>
>>> 15-09-2014 12:25 użytkownik "Martin Rehfeld"
>>> <martin....@gmail.com> napisał:
>>> >
>>> > Hi guys,
>>>
>>> Martin, it would be very nice if your choice of wording
>>> did not exclude potentially interested people. Unless you
>>> really mean only guys, to which I can only quietly
>>> facepalm in the presence of my houseplants and furniture.
>>>
>>> > as I met a lot of you at last year's Erlang Factory Lite mini-conference, I was thinking maybe some of you dug
>>> deeper into Erlang and might have discovered something
>>> they would like to share?
>>> >
>>> > Erlang Factory Lite Berlin will happen again on 4
>>> December and if you feel like it you should submit a talk
>>> proposal by 10 October HERE
>>> > More on the
>>> conference: http://www.erlang-__factory.com/berlin2014
>>
>> On 15 September 2014 16:16, Oliver Thamm
>> <ollid...@googlemail.com> wrote:
>>
>> I am sure there is a more polite way of reminding people
>> of gender issues in foreign languages.
>>
>>
>> Am 15.09.2014 um 16:03 schrieb Marta Paciorkowska:
>>>
>>>
>>> 15-09-2014 12:25 użytkownik "Martin Rehfeld"
>>> <martin....@gmail.com> napisał:
>>> >
>>> > Hi guys,
>>>
>>> Martin, it would be very nice if your choice of wording
>>> did not exclude potentially interested people. Unless you
>>> really mean only guys, to which I can only quietly
>>> facepalm in the presence of my houseplants and furniture.
>>>
>>> > as I met a lot of you at last year's Erlang Factory Lite mini-conference, I was thinking maybe some of you dug
>>> deeper into Erlang and might have discovered something
>>> they would like to share?
>>> >
>>> > Erlang Factory Lite Berlin will happen again on 4
>>> December and if you feel like it you should submit a talk
>>> proposal by 10 October HERE
>>> > More on the
>>> <http://www.erlang-factory.com/berlin2014> (not much to
>>> see yet).
>>> >
>>> > I will also try to get a special RUG-B deal for tickets
>>> again, as we had last year.
>>> >
>>> > Cheers,
>>> > Martin
>>> >
>>> > --
>>> > --
>>> > You received this message because you are subscribed to
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>>> see yet).
>>> >
>>> > I will also try to get a special RUG-B deal for tickets
>>> again, as we had last year.
>>> >
>>> > Cheers,
>>> > Martin
>>> >
>>> > --
>>> > --
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Oliver Thamm
Sep 15, 2014, 1:31:23 PM9/15/14
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I apologize for the tone-policing. This morning I didn't even
realize there's a term and philosophy behind that behaviour.
I do agree it is offensive and thinking about it, as a born Berliner ("Berliner Schnauze") I get tone-policed all the way, which takes a lot of fun out of everything. Result is I hardly talk to anyone at work.
So, now I am aware of that kind of behaviour myself and try to avoid it.
Still, Martin had to tell us sth interesting:
"I will also try to get a special RUG-B deal for tickets again, as we had last year." I will most probably attend as I did last year.
Cheers
I do agree it is offensive and thinking about it, as a born Berliner ("Berliner Schnauze") I get tone-policed all the way, which takes a lot of fun out of everything. Result is I hardly talk to anyone at work.
So, now I am aware of that kind of behaviour myself and try to avoid it.
Still, Martin had to tell us sth interesting:
"I will also try to get a special RUG-B deal for tickets again, as we had last year." I will most probably attend as I did last year.
Cheers
Martin Rehfeld
Sep 15, 2014, 4:18:04 PM9/15/14
to ru...@googlegroups.com
Hey Marta,
thanks for pointing this out. I will try to remember to go with the hopefully more inclusive "Hi folks" in a casual context. I can assure you my use of "guys" was not meant to exclude any gender, so facepalming can be considered optional.
Cheers,
Martin
Marta Paciorkowska
Sep 15, 2014, 7:28:43 PM9/15/14
to ru...@googlegroups.com
15-09-2014 22:18 użytkownik "Martin Rehfeld" <martin....@gmail.com> napisał:
>
> Hey Marta,
>
> thanks for pointing this out. I will try to remember to go with the hopefully more inclusive "Hi folks" in a casual context. I can assure you my use of "guys" was not meant to exclude any gender, so facepalming can be considered optional.
>
Hi Martin,
Thank you for your response, which is pretty much appreciated. Folks is pretty neat. Facepalming cancelled.
Best,
Marta
Dajana
Sep 17, 2014, 10:40:16 AM9/17/14
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Dear fellow Rubyists,
"[...] we are committed to providing a friendly, safe and welcoming environment for all, regardless of gender, sexual orientation, ability, ethnicity, socioeconomic status and religion (or lack thereof) [...]" (Communities CoC)
As usual I am a bit late to the party, but as another female human being, member of the board of the Ruby Berlin e.V. and sincere supporter of the communities CoC I had the feeling, that I still need to put my 2pence in here, too.
We are very very fortunate to belong to a well reflected (psychology, not physics term meant here) community, that has a CoC, where almost everybody knows the CoC and act according to it. Sometimes people tend to forget our fortune and especially forget that there are other "outside" communities that are not so well reflected.
We agreed on English as our language to communicate, although (I guess) a lot of us are not native speakers. Therefore it might happen, that one or the other use phrases that the opposite site might not understand or, worse, misunderstands/misinterprets. (Ask questions, because "Assumptions are evil" https://www.flickr.com/photos/dajanaguenther/14855039441/in/pool-2687737@N20/)
"friendly, safe and welcoming" for me (sic!) also means not to openly point at another's deficits and leave the stage "facepalming" (sorry, Marta, I know you cancelled it at the end) but to mention it in a safe environment, e.g. a personal message or face-to-face talk. So therefor I do tone-police quite often, because I know that a safe environment is necessary for some (or even more) people, so they know it's allowed to make mistakes because at the end we are all (hopefully) learning from our mistakes. Best example seen here in this thread.
"Be excellent to each other"
@Martin: Thank you for offering a special RUG-B deal for tickets again! We are looking forward to that.
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