Re: [Ripple] How do I get Ripples

[Jaro Larnos]

It's your receiving address. You share that with whomever you want to connect with and/or get payment from. But to activate it, because it doesn't exist yet, you need to have some XRP on your account. I could send you some, but I'm at the moment not able to use my own computer.

After you've received ripples you can grant trust to people you know, and they can do the same for you. I hope that clarified some things.

-Jaro

2013/2/19 Art Mart <vivo...@gmail.com>

I was wondering to experiment with ripples for my local shop of artworks.

The ripple network seems to be interesting for some of my friends, who have no money, but good skills.

I have registered to the ripple website and explored it a little. 

My account said that : I currently don't have any ripples (XRP).

Then it forwarded me to a funny combination of letters:

rDuEraqUXpRM5xiJoGsjsif7AiR2dVJsxk

What do I do with that long sequence of letters ?

Is it a code that I can enter somewhere ?

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[Art Mart]

So, the long letter combination it is like my eMail address in a way. Nice !

Currently, I do not know anyone who uses ripples.

Sending some ripples to me would be very helpful.

Getting them from local friends is probably very hard at this moment.

Any suggestions or help is welcome.

[Jorge Timón]

They were handing out xrp to anyone who posted his address in the new
forum. They're not doing it anymore, but they will enable an automated
method to do it this week:

https://ripple.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=63

I can lend you some at zero interest in the meantime.

On 2/19/13, Art Mart <vivo...@gmail.com> wrote:
> So, the long letter combination it is like my eMail address in a way. Nice
> !
>
> Currently, I do not know anyone who uses ripples.
> Sending some ripples to me would be very helpful.
>
> Getting them from local friends is probably very hard at this moment.
>
> Any suggestions or help is welcome.
>
> On Tuesday, February 19, 2013 2:49:52 PM UTC+8, AmbyR00 wrote:
>>
>> It's your receiving address. You share that with whomever you want to
>> connect with and/or get payment from. But to activate it, because it
>> doesn't exist yet, you need to have some XRP on your account. I could send
>>
>> you some, but I'm at the moment not able to use my own computer.
>>
>> After you've received ripples you can grant trust to people you know, and
>>
>> they can do the same for you. I hope that clarified some things.
>>
>> -Jaro
>>
>>
>>

>> 2013/2/19 Art Mart <vivo...@gmail.com <javascript:>>

>>
>>> I was wondering to experiment with ripples for my local shop of
>>> artworks.
>>> The ripple network seems to be interesting for some of my friends, who
>>> have no money, but good skills.
>>>
>>> I have registered to the ripple website and explored it a little.

>>> My account said that : *I currently don't have any ripples (XRP).*
>>> *
>>> *

>>> Then it forwarded me to a funny combination of letters:

>>> *rDuEraqUXpRM5xiJoGsjsif7AiR2dVJsxk*

>>>
>>> What do I do with that long sequence of letters ?
>>> Is it a code that I can enter somewhere ?
>>>
>>> --
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>>
>>
>
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[Jeffrey Cliff]

Right off the bat -- While ripple.com will eventually be the main ripple site in use when it is publicly released, http://Villages.cc is still up and running, and is a ripple site too!   It is a lot easier to 'start' with as you don't need XRP, you don't need to ask anyone *for* xrp and you don't need to know people to make payments[though the dynamics are a bit different -- it is a lot more tailored towards giving and communitybuilding] and it's easier to play around with. 

If you know absolutely no one no one no ripple.com, and your friends remain uninterested -- keep in mind that it will eventually be usable [if it isn't already] with the Gateway: Weex

https://weexchange.co

Also both ripple.com and villages.cc might be a chance to make some new friends -- which depending on your situation might not be a bad idea either :)

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[Jorge Timón]

Yes, of course. Since villages.cc only uses hours as unit of account
it is easier to use. The built-in market is very helpful too.
Certainly villages.cc still is the simplest ripple implementation and
very useful for starters.

>>>> My account said that : *I currently don't have any ripples (XRP).*
>>>> *
>>>> *

>>>> Then it forwarded me to a funny combination of letters:

>>>> *rDuEraqUXpRM5xiJoGsjsif7AiR2dVJsxk*

>>>>
>>>> What do I do with that long sequence of letters ?
>>>> Is it a code that I can enter somewhere ?
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
>>>> Groups "Ripple Project" group.
>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send

>>>> an email to rippleusers...@**googlegroups.com.
>>>>
>>>> For more options, visit
>>>> https://groups.google.com/**groups/opt_out<https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out>
>>>> .

>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
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>
>
>
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[Adam Wascholl]

Threads like this confuse me sometimes regarding how we use terminology.

If Ripple is supposed to be a mutual credit system, how can you GIVE somebody Ripples?  Shouldn't the right terminology be that you EXTEND a line of credit denominated in Ripples, which itself is only supposed to be a metric?  I feel the term 'gives' makes people believe that the currency is a commodity, rather than a system of tracking the REAL things we give to each other. 

[Kurt Padilla]

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I could be wrong but am under the impression that the ripple is just a meta currency designed to keep people from overwhelming the network with bogus activity.

Kurt

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[Apostolis Xekoukoulotakis]

It is used to protect the network indeed.

I noticed also that the developers decided to keep most of it for themselves. If we multiply it by the price that they say that each transaction will cost (0.001) ,

they are keeping 80 billion dollars for themselves.

Even if those numbers do not correspond to reality, we seem to get into a contradiction here.

Ripple is a project that promotes selflessness and solidarity but its creation was based on selfish motives.

I hope to be proven wrong.

2013/2/19 Kurt Padilla <kurt.p...@gmail.com>

--

Sincerely yours, 

     Apostolis Xekoukoulotakis

[Jorge Timón]

Yes, ripples (xrp) are not IOUs, it's a cash-like (using my own
definition, cash=it's no one else's liability) currency embedded in
the ledger to protect the network from spam and DoS attacks.

I think any price assigned to xrp right now is just made up, since you
can't possibly predict the demand for it.

If they keep 80% of the currency for themselves I think they face a
serious "fork risk", since it has to be free software, but I wouldn't
go crazy if they sell part of it to recover their investment. What
really scares me is that they want to keep a big reserve instead of
giving away and sell it all at the beginning.

[Kurt Padilla]

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This may not be news, but Ripple gives an error when you try give someone credit denominated in XRP. At least that's what it did the last time that I tried a few weeks ago.

Kurt

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[Jorge Timón]

Yes, they didn't thought xrp IOUs could be useful at first, but I
think I've convinced them:

https://github.com/rippleFoundation/ripple-client/issues/77

[Xekoukoulotakis Apostolos]

Jorge, do you know who is getting the remaining 20% of the currency?

Also
If I understand correctly 0.001 xrp are destroyed for every
Transaction. For each transaction to stay 0,001 dollars
there must be a fixed price between xrp and the dollar, or
Is the price of the transaction that is specified in the site in xrp?

I think that xrp is simply the price we have to pay to opencoin
to make a transaction, ie like visa or PayPal.

I am not against paying people for their work either, even 5
Times the salary of a well payed programmer but was their effort worth millions, billions?

[Jorge Timón]

No, I know they're going to start the give away soon, but I don't know
what percentage they will give away nor what they will do with the
rest.

I think their point is to make transaction fees worth approximately
0.001 usd and they're happily assigning a made up value to xrp in
order to do the translation. But they can't really do that until
there's real market to get the prices from.

The fees are NOT payed to opencoin: they're destroyed. The fees will
therefore adjust from to to time to track that 0.001 usd, which is (as
far as I know) their approximation of the cost of a transaction to the
network as a whole. Fees should be getting lower and lower (in xrp) as
the monetary supply shrinks.

Just as price is not about costs but about demand, salaries are not
about effort but about production. In any case, I expect them to be
smart enough to have other income sources planned. Their business
model can't rely on the initial issuance indefinitely, so it may as
well not rely on the issuance at all. I doubt that though, I think
they will keep/sell some part, at least to cover their costs.
But eventually they will live on something else related to the
software. Maybe have their own gateway? Consulting? Support? I don't
know, but there must be something...

[Adam Wascholl]

In the video explaining Ripple on the original site, they do act as IOU`s.

[Jorge Timón]

That video was for centralized Ripple, which didn't need non-IOU fees
for security.
With the new system, it works the same way, but you need some xrp
reserves and pay little xrp fees on every message. That includes pay,
trust and offers, a new feature that allows to directly exchange IOUs
and ripples (xrp) at market (agreed by both parties involved) price.

Ripplepay had multiple currencies too, but it managed them in a
different way. It takes prices from "real" centralized markets to
convert between currencies. It was a scary feature for me, since you
depend on global currency markets which are maybe the more volatile
ones.

I guess most "groups" only used it with one common denominations.
Probably the national currency or hours. Maybe someone that has used
more ripplepay than me, like maybe Jeff or someone else can tell us a
different story.

In summary, Ripple is all about IOUs, but this p2p implementation
requires and has cash-money.

And to clarify how we use the word in case you're confused, we use the
word ripple at least as two nouns, an adjective and a verb:

Ripple as a concept.

Ripple network, ripple payment, ripple neighbor/adjacent financial
node/friend, ripple connection...as adjective.

To ripple: to pay using a ripple (transitive) transaction.

[Apostolis Xekoukoulotakis]

The price of transaction is paid when you buy the xrp, not when you make a transaction, like a video game token/coin.

I dont know all the details either. But the most important for someone who has many xrp is this:

transactions pers second * price in dollars of a transaction.

So one who holds all the xrp would give some, that would create a currency price for xrp in dollars.

Then depending on the transaction speed, and the amount of xrp they gave, they will change the base fee

to maximize the above equation. 

This is economics 101, its what companies do.

Now, the free market has no soul, it has no ethic responsibility, people do.

That is why doctors do not increase their prices in an epidemy.

A rational doctor would let a few people die, then increase his price.

Now, another thing, I dont think xrp are necessary at all. Ripple is intrinsically 

attack resistant. What they should have done is put a small fee per user to be given to the server hosting the account, otherwise zero cost.

Then limit transactions per link between accounts.

The only real attack on ripple is the sybil attack which is negated by the above.

2013/2/20 Adam Wascholl <adam.w...@gmail.com>

[Jorge Timón]

On 2/20/13, Apostolis Xekoukoulotakis <xeko...@gmail.com> wrote:
> The price of transaction is paid when you buy the xrp, not when you make a
> transaction, like a video game token/coin.

Exactly, that's my point about them not really having a price, because
they've been giving away, not sold yet.

> I dont know all the details either. But the most important for someone who
> has many xrp is this:
> transactions pers second * price in dollars of a transaction.
>
> So one who holds all the xrp would give some, that would create a currency
> price for xrp in dollars.
> Then depending on the transaction speed, and the amount of xrp they gave,

> they will change the base fee <https://ripple.com/wiki/Transaction_Fee>

> to maximize the above equation.
>
> This is economics 101, its what companies do.

It's not about what they would want to do but about what they can do.
Maybe I'm being repetitive, but being free software anyone can start
another network with its own hostcoin, so the value of xrp is not
assured.

> Now, another thing, I dont think xrp are necessary at all. Ripple is
> intrinsically
> attack resistant. What they should have done is put a small fee per user to
> be given to the server hosting the account, otherwise zero cost.
> Then limit transactions per link between accounts.

You don't have to host your account in any server as is done with the
current web client. The server in that case is only storing your
wallet encrypted by your password (that's why you cant forget it).
If you mean the server they trust to give you a valid ledger? Then
what about people that run their own servers? They don't pay fees?
If there's no cash, which IOUs are valid to pay the fees?

> The only real attack on ripple is the sybil attack which is negated by the
> above.

If the ledger doesn't have its own scarce resource, there's many
possible Sybil attacks.
The simplest one: create infinite accounts for the network to spread
through the network and then store in those many places.

[Apostolis Xekoukoulotakis]

Yea, open source projects are good at protecting its users but a non-programmer

will not be able to take advantage of that freedom. Even a single programmer would not

be able to. This requires a lot of people that are experts, ie it requires capital.

2013/2/20 Jorge Timón <jtim...@gmail.com>

On 2/20/13, Apostolis Xekoukoulotakis <xeko...@gmail.com> wrote:
> The price of transaction is paid when you buy the xrp, not when you make a
> transaction, like a video game token/coin.

Exactly, that's my point about them not really having a price, because
they've been giving away, not sold yet.

> I dont know all the details either. But the most important for someone who
> has many xrp is this:
> transactions pers second * price in dollars of a transaction.
>
> So one who holds all the xrp would give some, that would create a currency
> price for xrp in dollars.
> Then depending on the transaction speed, and the amount of xrp they gave,

> they will change the base fee <https://ripple.com/wiki/Transaction_Fee>

> to maximize the above equation.
>
> This is economics 101, its what companies do.

It's not about what they would want to do but about what they can do.
Maybe I'm being repetitive, but being free software anyone can start
another network with its own hostcoin, so the value of xrp is not
assured.

While I agree, non-programmers can take advantage of the freedom that open 

source projects provide. Even a single programmer wouldnt be able to.

This requires a lot of people that are experts, ie it requires capital.

That is the only reason why ripple hasnt succeeded yet, not its ideas.

So OpenCoin is doing a service to the community but at what cost.

 

> Now, another thing, I dont think xrp are necessary at all. Ripple is
> intrinsically
> attack resistant. What they should have done is put a small fee per user to
> be given to the server hosting the account, otherwise zero cost.
> Then limit transactions per link between accounts.

You don't have to host your account in any server as is done with the
current web client. The server in that case is only storing your
wallet encrypted by your password (that's why you cant forget it).
If you mean the server they trust to give you a valid ledger? Then
what about people that run their own servers? They don't pay fees?
If there's no cash, which IOUs are valid to pay the fees?

Ok I have to read how the ledger works. So, you have to translate what I say

to the current implementation.

The scarce resource should be trust. Dont they use trust for the ledger anyway?

(certainly I need to read more about this)

I think this is some sort of gossip protocol.

 

> The only real attack on ripple is the sybil attack which is negated by the
> above.

If the ledger doesn't have its own scarce resource, there's many
possible Sybil attacks.
The simplest one: create infinite accounts for the network to spread
through the network and then store in those many places.

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[Jorge Timón]

On 2/20/13, Apostolis Xekoukoulotakis <xeko...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Yea, open source projects are good at protecting its users but a
> non-programmer
> will not be able to take advantage of that freedom. Even a single
> programmer would not
> be able to. This requires a lot of people that are experts, ie it requires
> capital.

No, you just need users. Well, a git repository, a page to publish the
binaries...nothing very expensive. The hard part is users and that's
why they can't do whatever they want with the initial supply. They
must be reasonable enough or users will go elsewhere.

[Apostolis Xekoukoulotakis]

If it doesnt require much change, then yes it only requires users.

So we need to be careful because of the network effect, the usefulness of a system 

is dependent on the number of its users.

Have a look at the consensus process, it only requires trust.

I think we can find a way to pay Validators for the resources they provide to validate a transaction,

but by using the inherent properties of the ripple network, for example accepting to validate transactions that

pass through a node that gave them a small fee.(this needs more work)

2013/2/20 Jorge Timón <jtim...@gmail.com>

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[Apostolis Xekoukoulotakis]

We could even pay validators with iou if they accept them.

At the beginning we push a list of 1000 validators to the users to bootstrap the network, then they decide which to trust.

The important thing is to have a big number of validators that process your transactions while you are offline.

2013/2/20 Apostolis Xekoukoulotakis <xeko...@gmail.com>

[Jorge Timón]

I took the "pay to validators" approach too, but it seems is not possible:

https://ripple.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=3

About paying fees with IOUs, we discussed it for "ripplecoin" too.
Maybe is easier with this consensus mechanism, but I still don't see
it.

On 2/20/13, Apostolis Xekoukoulotakis <xeko...@gmail.com> wrote:
> We could even pay validators with iou if they accept them.
>
> At the beginning we push a list of 1000 validators to the users to
> bootstrap the network, then they decide which to trust.
> The important thing is to have a big number of validators that process your
> transactions while you are offline.
>
>
> 2013/2/20 Apostolis Xekoukoulotakis <xeko...@gmail.com>
>
>> If it doesnt require much change, then yes it only requires users.
>> So we need to be careful because of the network

>> effect<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Network_effect>,

>> the usefulness of a system
>> is dependent on the number of its users.
>>

>> Have a look at the consensus process <https://ripple.com/wiki/Consensus>,

[Apostolis Xekoukoulotakis]

I didnt see any good argument in this thread against it. people decide which validators to trust, so an attacker cant create a million validators to make profit.

But do we have the resolve to fork this? To find a solution, you will have to read some papers on the gossip protocol, how it provides guaranteed eventual consistency.

Also, it might require some graph theory.

It requires time.

Also, even though I am against demurrage , and one of the reasons is that it needs to be forced to even be used,  creating a currency(in my case many currencies through special barter contracts) in which profit is zero(not produced value) is very close to Gessel's ideal. 

2013/2/21 Jorge Timón <jtim...@gmail.com>

[Jeffrey Cliff]

I think Apostolis' idea is sound -- in the future it may be that the ripple network that OpenCoin is using will only be useful as something to bootstrap off of and for systems which need the stability that XRP offers to run on.  There is room for both, and bitcoin, really -- billions of people don't use ripple yet, there's plenty of breathing room for this experiment to run its course.

[Kurt Padilla]

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Why not use the satoshi, the smallest fraction of a bitcoin, instead of the ripple?

Kurt

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[Jeffrey Cliff]

Because mining isn't free?

[Kurt Padilla]

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I realize this, but ripples aren't really supposed to be free either. If they were, there wouldn't really be an impediment to bogus Ripple activity. It seems a little too troublesome to create, issue, and manage a new digital currency when one exists that would suffice and is already in circulation.

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[Xekoukoulotakis Apostolos]

Coins might not be necessary at all, but the short answer is
Because it is always cool to create a currency,create a market for it, then keep 80% for yourself.

Anyway, from a technological point, the new consensus mechanism is a breakthrough, I am only worried because of
a Facebook-like possible lock-in.

[Kurt Padilla]

I don't see the ripple as any kind of currency that folks could buy stuff with, let alone horde for that purpose. However, I do see the holders of the ripple reserves wielding a lot of power insofar as maintaining such a cache would enable them to engage lots of bogus ripple activity.

And the idea of having to do stuff with Ripple on a per-token basis seems kind of extraneous. Can't Ripple nodes just ignore misbehaving users?

Kurt

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[Apostolis Xekoukoulotakis]

I know a good programmer who likes challenges. He recently forked bitcoin and his skills have no limits. He has participated in this list for many years.
If only we could convince him to fork the new ripple software...

2013/2/21 Kurt Padilla <kurt.p...@gmail.com>

I don't see the ripple as any kind of currency that folks could buy stuff with, let alone horde for that purpose. However, I do see the holders of the ripple reserves wielding a lot of power insofar as maintaining such a cache would enable them to engage lots of bogus ripple activity.

And the idea of having to do stuff with Ripple on a per-token basis seems kind of extraneous. Can't Ripple nodes just ignore misbehaving users?

Possibly yes, it can. That is what I am saying.
 

[Jaro Larnos]

So now that the Big Ripple Giveaway is on, I'm a bit puzzled. Why is it targeted at Bitcoin users only?

Weird.

-Jaro

2013/2/21 Apostolis Xekoukoulotakis <xeko...@gmail.com>

[Ryan Fugger]

I'll point out a few reasons for the existence of XRP:

* To prevent the simple denial of service attack where the attacker submits a huge number of transactions to overwhelm the network.  Same as transaction fee in Bitcoin, but with a built-in negative feedback mechanism so the network can't get bogged down even on legitimate transactions.

* To fund the project itself.  Funding development of an open, decentralized system is a difficult proposition, and I think this is one of the better ideas I've seen.

* To direct and control growth of the network at the start.  The initial users of the network will be key in developing applications that will attract new users and help the network grow.  By seeding XRP to selected people, they are invested in the success of the network.  Jed is connected to the Bitcoin community, and there is a lot of proven success there, so that's an obvious place where some of it will go.

Ryan

[Jorge Timón]

> I realize this, but ripples aren't really supposed to be free either. If
> they were, there wouldn't really be an impediment to bogus Ripple activity.
> It seems a little too troublesome to create, issue, and manage a new digital
> currency when one exists that would suffice and is already in circulation.

In fact in would be far more complex to use btc within the system,
apart from having many other not needed disadvantages.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=133096.msg1543565#msg1543565

To reiterate, if xrp are issued in a more or less reasonable way, I
don't think a fork will be necessary.
I'm very interested in any proposal to reward validators, but nothing
comes to mind that is not somehow flawed.

About the bitcointalk give away...there will be people with several
accounts, but since they've set a maximum date, nobody can flood the
forum with new accounts to get more xrp, so it's ingenious. I think
something similar for this forum would be desirable, since there's
many people here who already understand the concept and could use it
without having to learn much. Bitcoiners are more used to hash
addresses and currency markets though.

[Apostolis Xekoukoulotakis]

2013/2/21 Ryan Fugger <a...@ryanfugger.com>

These functions are better done by a non-profit organization since the ripple project belongs to all the people that use it and are affected by it. Think of the Wikipedia project, such an organization should

be transparent, all its data should be public and it should be open governed.

The founding members will continue to guide the development of the project, but people will also have a say.

 

Ryan

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[Ryan Fugger]

I'm sure a nonprofit will be set up eventually, just like for the Wikipedia project, which didn't turn nonprofit until after a couple years of operation.  Setting up a nonprofit is a lot of work, and it makes sense to wait until something is a big enough deal to make it worthwhile.

[Apostolis Xekoukoulotakis]

The amount of work to create an organization is similar to the amount of work to create a company. It is their decision to make a for profit corporation, they submitted an Articles of Incorporation this September. In the same 

building one can create a non-profit organization.

Can anyone expect them to hand over the remaining currency to a non-profit organization when it would be worth millions?

Let's not fool ourselves. This is a private network owned by OpenCoin similar to paypal and visa with the advantage that it is decentralized and the fee is assumed to be very very small.

A decentralized exchange is the holy grail of bitcoin , we have already discussed it here, that was the reason for the creation of ripple.com , not some hippie monetary system for the social good.

That is why they are giving coins to bitcoin users.

2013/2/22 Ryan Fugger <a...@ryanfugger.com>

[Ryan Fugger]

Oh, the nonprofit won't be receiving the remaining currency -- that is the return on investment for the creators of the system, who have invested significant time and money to make it happen.  I'm not sure why you expect them to do it for free.

That said, the system won't succeed unless they make wise choices about how to distribute the XRP at the start.  They can't just keep 99% of it and think others are going to care to participate.  It has to be perceived as generally fair to work.  We'll see how it goes...

[Apostolis Xekoukoulotakis]

This is like an Ocean's Eleven film. You need 10 people , experts at what they do, you need a significant amount of investment (from the casino owner) to buy the trucks, the fake casino vault and the tools for the Job

and then you steal a bunch of millions with that investment.

The fact that you invested money and effort doesnt justify the steal of value from the network. The value of the network derives from its people, their social relations and interactions.

It is the same story with Facebook, google+ etc.

Can I trust a for profit company and its founders that they will do good? No. 

2013/2/22 Ryan Fugger <a...@ryanfugger.com>

[Jorge Timón]

On 2/22/13, Apostolis Xekoukoulotakis <xeko...@gmail.com> wrote:
>The value of the network derives from its people,
> their social relations and interactions.

If they don't understand that, they will be forked.

> It is the same story with Facebook, google+ etc.
> Can I trust a for profit company and its founders that they will do good?
> No.

Actually there's many profitable companies that develop free software
and do good.

> 2013/2/22 Ryan Fugger <a...@ryanfugger.com>
>
>> Oh, the nonprofit won't be receiving the remaining currency -- that is
>> the
>> return on investment for the creators of the system, who have invested
>> significant time and money to make it happen. I'm not sure why you
>> expect
>> them to do it for free.
>>
>> That said, the system won't succeed unless they make wise choices about
>> how to distribute the XRP at the start. They can't just keep 99% of it
>> and
>> think others are going to care to participate. It has to be perceived as
>> generally fair to work. We'll see how it goes...
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Feb 22, 2013 at 1:26 AM, Apostolis Xekoukoulotakis <
>> xeko...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> The amount of work to create an organization is similar to the amount of
>>> work to create a company. It is their decision to make a for profit
>>> corporation, they submitted an Articles of Incorporation this

>>> September<http://www.corporationwiki.com/California/Palo-Alto/opencoin-inc/108127649.aspx>.