Train Travel in Europe
Dan
I will be travelling by train next week from Rome to Naples, to
Florence, then back to Rome. This will be my first experience with
trains. I have reserved my seats on each train (ticketless option).
The first is an IC Plus train (first class). The other two are second
class on the Eurostar.
I have posted previously in this group and gotten many good responses.
I just have one additional question. For the first leg of my trip, it
says our assigned seats are "Coach 2: 53 -, 54".
Correct me if I am wrong, but I take this to mean I need to board the
second train car from the front and look for seats 53 and 54. Is there
an entrance for each train car or do you board the first car and keep
walking until you are in the second car (are they even connected for
that matter)? Are the seat numbers easily viewable? Is it obvious
where the luggage is to be stored (by the seat, or is there a seperate
car for luggage)?
On the Eurostar, I noticed there is a restaurant car. Is it safe to
leave our luggage behind, or should we take turns going to the
restaurant? I mean no disrespect, but I have heard mixed opinions
about the number of thieves on trains.
Thanks,
Dan
Donald Newcomb
"Dan" <dan_h...@hailmail.net> wrote in message
news:1163956126.3...@f16g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
> I have posted previously in this group and gotten many good responses.
> I just have one additional question. For the first leg of my trip, it
> says our assigned seats are "Coach 2: 53 -, 54".
>
> Correct me if I am wrong, but I take this to mean I need to board the
> second train car from the front and look for seats 53 and 54.
Actually you need to board coach #2. This could be the second car from the
front or the second from the end. (This is Italy we are talking about here,
not Japan.) Also, in Naples, pay no attention to the signs over the landings
about where the cars will be. I've seen the train come in reversed order and
everyone had to quickly swap ends. Look through the windows to see the seat
numbers and board at the end nearest to your seat.
>Is there
> an entrance for each train car or do you board the first car and keep
> walking until you are in the second car (are they even connected for
> that matter)? Are the seat numbers easily viewable?
No that would be impossible. There are doors at each end of each car. Use
the door nearest your seat as described above.
Is it obvious
> where the luggage is to be stored (by the seat, or is there a seperate
> car for luggage)?
There's a place for big bags near the door. Small bags go over your head or
under your seat.
> On the Eurostar, I noticed there is a restaurant car. Is it safe to
> leave our luggage behind, or should we take turns going to the
> restaurant? I mean no disrespect, but I have heard mixed opinions
> about the number of thieves on trains.
Nothing is 100% safe. There is a snack bar but the food is expensive and not
very good. Get something at the station and bring it with you.
> Thanks,
> Dan
Welcome
--
Donald R. Newcomb
DRNewcomb (at) attglobal (dot) net
Mimi
Here's a good source with lots of detail about traveling by train in Italy:
www.slowtrav.com/italy/trains/index.htm
I wouldn't assume coach 2 to be the second car from the front. At the head
of the track (in terminal stations) is a plan of the train showing the
location within the train of the different car numbers. Sometimes this is
also marked alongside the track.
Each car has at least one door. Small pieces of luggage are stored overhead,
larger ones either on shelves near the door or between seats.
As for dining on the train, it's fun. If you're worried about your luggage,
bring a light bicycle cable and lock your luggage to the shelf. However,
most of your trips sound fairly short. You might not have time to enjoy a
meal. (I'm assuming you will have to change trains in Rome between Naples
and Florence.)
If you do this again, investigate open jaws tickets -- like into
Florence/Pisa, out of Naples or Rome. Saves you backtracking time. And you
can get them with FF miles.
tim(yet another new home)
I almost always take my stuff with me.
But a couple of weeks ago, the carriage was almost empty
and having just left the penultimate station, went to the toilet
leaving my stuff behind.
When I got back, the man two seats away gave me a
bollocking for leaving my potential 'bomb' behind.
tim
B Vaughan
>I have posted previously in this group and gotten many good responses.
>I just have one additional question. For the first leg of my trip, it
>says our assigned seats are "Coach 2: 53 -, 54".
>Correct me if I am wrong, but I take this to mean I need to board the
>second train car from the front and look for seats 53 and 54. Is there
>an entrance for each train car or do you board the first car and keep
>walking until you are in the second car (are they even connected for
>that matter)? Are the seat numbers easily viewable? Is it obvious
>where the luggage is to be stored (by the seat, or is there a seperate
>car for luggage)?
On the outside of each car is posted the number; the Italian word is
"carrozza". Sometimes they count from the back of train and sometimes
from the front. (This is because there are stations where the train
goes in and backs out, thus changing the direction.) So you will look
for a car with "Carrozza 2" on the outside. You could also go through
the train, but it's much easier to board the train at the right
carriage, especially if you have luggage. On some train platforms, you
will see a sign which has a scheme of the train and shows the
location of the carriages.
The seat numbers are usually easy to see. Ic trains often have
compartments, each with six seats, and in this case the seat numbers
will be on the door. Other trains have an open seating arrangement,
and in this case, the seat numbers will be above the seats, as in an
airplane.
If there is an open seat plan, there is some luggage space above the
seats and a larger luggage storage space at the end of the car. If
there are compartments, the luggage stays in the compartment with you.
There are racks above the seats and space under the seats.
>On the Eurostar, I noticed there is a restaurant car. Is it safe to
>leave our luggage behind, or should we take turns going to the
>restaurant? I mean no disrespect, but I have heard mixed opinions
>about the number of thieves on trains.
I have never had a problem with my luggage on the train. I think
thieves are less frequent than in other places, because they can't
really go anywhere with your luggage until the next stop. I generally
leave my bags unattended while I wander through the train. However, I
wouldn't want to swear that you won't have a problem. In my opinion,
the best defense is cheap, beat-up luggage. Some people carry a
bicycle cable to attach their bags to each other, so that it would be
difficult to carry them off. If you want to be cautious, keep an eye
on your bags when the train is arriving in a station. That's the most
vulnerable time.
--
Barbara Vaughan
My email address is my first initial followed by my surname at libero dot it
I answer travel questions only in the newsgroup
B Vaughan
<DRNe...@NOT.attglobal.net> wrote:
>
>"Dan" <dan_h...@hailmail.net> wrote in message
>news:1163956126.3...@f16g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
>> I have posted previously in this group and gotten many good responses.
>> I just have one additional question. For the first leg of my trip, it
>> says our assigned seats are "Coach 2: 53 -, 54".
>>
>> Correct me if I am wrong, but I take this to mean I need to board the
>> second train car from the front and look for seats 53 and 54.
>
>Actually you need to board coach #2. This could be the second car from the
>front or the second from the end. (This is Italy we are talking about here,
>not Japan.)
There's a simple reason why the cars are sometimes numbered from the
front and sometimes from the rear, and it has nothing to do with the
Italian soul. In stations such as Rome Termini, the tracks end at the
station. The train pulls in with the cars numbered from the front and
pulls out with the cars numbered from the rear.
>>Is there
>> an entrance for each train car or do you board the first car and keep
>> walking until you are in the second car (are they even connected for
>> that matter)? Are the seat numbers easily viewable?
>
>No that would be impossible. There are doors at each end of each car. Use
>the door nearest your seat as described above.
It's not impossible to walk through the cars; I've done it many times.
However, when you're impeded with luggage, it's slow going and the
people behind you might get impatient. It's especially difficult on
the trains with closed compartments. These have a narrow aisle outside
the compartments. When the train is full, the aisles will be occupied
with people who have pulled down the little jump seats in the aisles.
David Horne, _the_ chancellor of the royal duchy of city south and deansgate
[]
> I have never had a problem with my luggage on the train. I think
> thieves are less frequent than in other places, because they can't
> really go anywhere with your luggage until the next stop. I generally
> leave my bags unattended while I wander through the train. However, I
> wouldn't want to swear that you won't have a problem. In my opinion,
> the best defense is cheap, beat-up luggage. Some people carry a
> bicycle cable to attach their bags to each other, so that it would be
> difficult to carry them off. If you want to be cautious, keep an eye
> on your bags when the train is arriving in a station. That's the most
> vulnerable time.
Indeed. A decade ago, my ex had his luggage stolen (including the bag
with his passport) at the main station in Florence. He'd left his
luggage in one car while checking the other to see if there were free
seats. He got back to find it all gone. This was avoidable obviously,
but I suppose it's worth mentioning as a warning to others. BTW, I'm not
suggesting that Italy is more prone to this than other places.
--
David Horne- http://www.davidhorne.net
usenet (at) davidhorne (dot) co (dot) uk
http://www.davidhorne.net/pictures.html http://soundjunction.org
Dave Frightens Me
>All,
>
>I will be travelling by train next week from Rome to Naples, to
>Florence, then back to Rome. This will be my first experience with
>trains. I have reserved my seats on each train (ticketless option).
>The first is an IC Plus train (first class). The other two are second
>class on the Eurostar.
>
>I have posted previously in this group and gotten many good responses.
>I just have one additional question. For the first leg of my trip, it
>says our assigned seats are "Coach 2: 53 -, 54".
>
>Correct me if I am wrong, but I take this to mean I need to board the
>second train car from the front and look for seats 53 and 54. Is there
>an entrance for each train car or do you board the first car and keep
>walking until you are in the second car (are they even connected for
>that matter)? Are the seat numbers easily viewable? Is it obvious
>where the luggage is to be stored (by the seat, or is there a seperate
>car for luggage)?
Seat numbers will be easily viewable, although there may well be
someone already sitting there. If you show them your ticket, they will
politely move and let you sit. Luggage goes over your head usually,
and can be a nuiscance if you're a short-ass.
>On the Eurostar, I noticed there is a restaurant car. Is it safe to
>leave our luggage behind, or should we take turns going to the
>restaurant? I mean no disrespect, but I have heard mixed opinions
>about the number of thieves on trains.
Frankly I wouldn't eat in the restaurant. I would grab a couple of
take away panini, slices of pizza plus a bottle of water and maybe
some wine.
(you'll sleep nicely after a couple of cups of red!)
Just keep your money somewhere close to you, and if snoozing, wear
your sunglasses. That way theives don't know if you're sleeping or
not.
--
---
DFM - http://www.deepfriedmars.com
---
--
Giovanni Drogo
> >second train car from the front and look for seats 53 and 54. Is there
As many said. Car number 2 won't be necessary the second from front. On
ES sets it can be second from front or from end (since car numbers are
fixed, but train set invert the direction they run at a terminus). On
other trains you might even expect car numbers not to be sequential (but
this is more for night trains).
Seats numbers are viewable, but sometimes I found the arrangement is not
sequential or obvious (in open space ES cars ... it is strictly
sequential in older compartment IC cars ... in this case 53 and 54 would
be in compartment 5.
Usually cars have doors at either end, provided they both work.
Otherwise you can alight in the neighbouring car and move back or
forward. If you are very late, jump in anywhere and then move along the
train (a bit painful, but better than missing it).
As already said in many big stations there are displays with the
composition of the trains (usually somewhere along the platforms similar
to the timetables). They show the arrangement of the train with the car
numbers and position with respect to a lettered reference ABCDEF. The
positions A,B,C etc. are marked along the platform (white cubes with
blue letters).
> If there is an open seat plan, there is some luggage space above the
> seats and a larger luggage storage space at the end of the car. If
There is usually also luggage space between the backs of adjacent seats.
That's usually the best space if the luggage is not too bulky, but heavy
enough to be painful to be lifted overhead.
> >On the Eurostar, I noticed there is a restaurant car. Is it safe to
> >leave our luggage behind, or should we take turns going to the
> I have never had a problem with my luggage on the train. I think
I never had problems as well, although I'm suspicious. I generally watch
my luggage during stops at stations. If I travel for business, my
luggage is light, so I can take it with me at the restaurant. I'm afraid
you cannot "take turns" between yourselves easily on italian trains.
Unlike other places (like e.g. Germany or Switzerland) where the
restaurant service is continuously flowing, the typical arrangement here
for proper restaurant cars is to have shifts. You should reserve as soon
as you board.
This is one of the few differences between 1st and 2nd class. A
conductor passes to collect reservations, and he passes first in the 1st
class. If there are no places left, sometimes he does not even pass in
2nd class. So I learned, if I want to be sure to eat, to reserve as soon
as I board. On a trip like Rome-Milan e.g. there could be two shifts,
one would occur on the Rome-Florence stretch (no stop, so one can trust
to leave baggage unattended) and another later on.
Personally when I used to use restaurant service a lot, this was mainly
for time reasons (leaving Rome at 7pm after a meeting day), but I found
that the price was not worth the food (usually a fixed menu with a
choice of two courses) and the service. Much better in older times.
Some other trains have self-service cars serving lighter (but hot)
meals, and you can get there any time. It should always be possible to
get snacks, sandwiches, coffee.
If you want really good food, it's better to bring it with you.
--
----------------------------------------------------------------------
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avoid unwanted spam. Any mail returning to this address will be rejected.
Users can disclose their e-mail address in the article if they wish so.
Donald Newcomb
news:8t71m2pafhnj1qn1k...@4ax.com...
> On Sun, 19 Nov 2006 11:45:56 -0600, "Donald Newcomb"
> <DRNe...@NOT.attglobal.net> wrote:
>
> >
> >"Dan" <dan_h...@hailmail.net> wrote in message
> >news:1163956126.3...@f16g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
> >> I have posted previously in this group and gotten many good responses.
> >> I just have one additional question. For the first leg of my trip, it
> >> says our assigned seats are "Coach 2: 53 -, 54".
> >>
> >> Correct me if I am wrong, but I take this to mean I need to board the
> >> second train car from the front and look for seats 53 and 54.
> >
> >Actually you need to board coach #2. This could be the second car from
the
> >front or the second from the end. (This is Italy we are talking about
here,
> >not Japan.)
>
> There's a simple reason why the cars are sometimes numbered from the
> front and sometimes from the rear, and it has nothing to do with the
> Italian soul. In stations such as Rome Termini, the tracks end at the
> station. The train pulls in with the cars numbered from the front and
> pulls out with the cars numbered from the rear.
The comparison with Japan was that in large Japanese stations there will be
a queue for a particular coach painted on the platform. If you stand in that
queue the correct door for your coach will open right in front of you when
the train stops. In Italy there may be a sign saying where a coach will be
but it may actually be at the other end of the train.
> >>Is there
> >> an entrance for each train car or do you board the first car and keep
> >> walking until you are in the second car (are they even connected for
> >> that matter)? Are the seat numbers easily viewable?
> >
> >No that would be impossible. There are doors at each end of each car. Use
> >the door nearest your seat as described above.
>
> It's not impossible to walk through the cars; I've done it many times.
> However, when you're impeded with luggage, it's slow going and the
> people behind you might get impatient. It's especially difficult on
> the trains with closed compartments. These have a narrow aisle outside
> the compartments. When the train is full, the aisles will be occupied
> with people who have pulled down the little jump seats in the aisles.
"Impossible" was probably a poor choice of words. "Extremely difficult"
might have been better. Not if you are the only one getting on or off, mind
you, but that's not usually the case. I find boarding Italian trains to be
an "interesting" experience. Finding the easiest way to do it was a minor
study on one trip to Italy.
Giovanni Drogo
> The comparison with Japan was that in large Japanese stations there
> will be a queue for a particular coach painted on the platform. [...]
> In Italy there may be a sign saying where a coach will be but it may
> actually be at the other end of the train.
There are NO "signs on the platform" (if you mean the platform FLOOR) in
Italy nor anywhere else in Europe I'm aware of. What there will be in
major stations in Italy, and more systematically elsewhere e.g. in
Germany are letters indicating platform SECTIONS (A/B/C/D/E/F). They
won't be painted on the floor, but hanging from the ceiling or
protruding from poles or pillars.
Then there will be a display (not systematically in Italy, depends on
station and Compartimento (which is not a train compartment, but a
regional railway "district"), more systematically in Germany where it is
called Wagenstandanzeiger) telling which car number goes in which
sections.
Car numbers may not be sequential, it is likely to be sequential for
fixed trainsets, but variable for long distance night trains often
arranged with through cars connected somewhere en route. I've seen
trains with car # 253 but it did not have 253 cars ! :-)
In most places car numbers are written on a sticker, in some cases on a
display (LCD or luminous). For instance in Denmakr on IC3 these displays
are reprogrammable. I remember I had a booking for a given car, and when
the train arrived there was no car with such number. Passengers got off,
then doors were closed, displays were blanked out with some notice
saying they were cleaning the cars, then reprogrammed with new (non
sequential) numbers (for some reasons the numbers seemed to refer to
half-car sections on either sides of the doors), and only then doors
opened again. This occurred at the terminal station of the train.
John Bermont
Dan,
For an illustrated introduction to using the trains in Europe see my
chapter on trains at
http://www.enjoy-europe.com/hte/chap17/rail.htm. There are four parts
on line because the chapter is so big. Click at the end of each part to
continue.
As shown in some of my photos, the car number will be posted on each
car, sometimes on the door and sometimes on the car next to the door.
Coach in Italian is carrozza. The seat numbers of seats nearest that
door will also be painted on the side of the car.
My only experience with theft on a train was on an overnighter from
Venice to Vienna, but it can happen anywhere. I have met people who
have lost their goods in stations and on trains throughout Europe.
NEVER leave valuables in your luggage. Always stay within arm's reach
of your luggage when the train is in a station. It is not necessary to
have a ticket to board a train and the doors are always open when the
train is in a station. Criminals can get on board, pick out their new
luggage, and then hop off with it before the train departs.
John Bermont
http://www.enjoy-europe.com/
B Vaughan
<DRNe...@NOT.attglobal.net> wrote:
>"B Vaughan" <m...@privacy.net> wrote in message
>news:8t71m2pafhnj1qn1k...@4ax.com...
>> There's a simple reason why the cars are sometimes numbered from the
>> front and sometimes from the rear, and it has nothing to do with the
>> Italian soul. In stations such as Rome Termini, the tracks end at the
>> station. The train pulls in with the cars numbered from the front and
>> pulls out with the cars numbered from the rear.
>
>The comparison with Japan was that in large Japanese stations there will be
>a queue for a particular coach painted on the platform. If you stand in that
>queue the correct door for your coach will open right in front of you when
>the train stops. In Italy there may be a sign saying where a coach will be
>but it may actually be at the other end of the train.
That is not my experience. When I find a sign, it's accurate. They put
the sign up precisely because of the problem with changing direction.
Hatunen
wrote:
>All,
>
>I will be travelling by train next week from Rome to Naples, to
>Florence, then back to Rome. This will be my first experience with
>trains. I have reserved my seats on each train (ticketless option).
>The first is an IC Plus train (first class). The other two are second
>class on the Eurostar.
Be careful with your terminology. "Reservation" does not mean a
ticket like it does for an airline. In general, the ticket is
your fare, and the reservation, which is not always necessary,
reserves you a specific seat. And on some local trains there are
no seat reservations. Seat reservations cost a few bucks.
The exception is certain special trains, including the Eurostar
(channel tunnel), which combine the seat reservation and ticket
together like most airlines (of course, these days some airlines
don't reserve you a specific seat at all).
>I have posted previously in this group and gotten many good responses.
>I just have one additional question. For the first leg of my trip, it
>says our assigned seats are "Coach 2: 53 -, 54".
I can't spak for Italian trains, but other trains will show the
carriage number and possible the seating range of each car at the
doorways. Also, there should be a diagram posted on a board
somewhere showing the composition of the train, a sort of map of
the train. Take a look at this and find your car. Unfortunately,
it is not always clear which way the train will be heading, so as
the train comes in grab a look at a couple of car numbers and
make sure which end is which.
>Correct me if I am wrong, but I take this to mean I need to board the
>second train car from the front and look for seats 53 and 54. Is there
>an entrance for each train car or do you board the first car and keep
>walking until you are in the second car (are they even connected for
>that matter)? Are the seat numbers easily viewable? Is it obvious
>where the luggage is to be stored (by the seat, or is there a seperate
>car for luggage)?
Seat numbers on trains like Eurostar are pretty much visible just
like on an airliner. Each carriage will have an entrance at each
end. Some trains will have luggage racks at the doors at each
end. The Eurostar makes so few stops a thief is likely to be
pretty frustrated trying to snatch your bags and running off. Bag
steaing is pretty much a snatch and run operation; impede this in
any way and your bags are likely to be safe. We carry a chain
type bicycle lock and simply run it through our baggage handles
and thought he luggage rack. I consider this a bit paranoid on
our part, but it's so easy, why take the chance?
There are also overhead racks on almost all trains. Unlike
airplanes, they can sometimes take a pretty hefty bag.
Incidentally, trains like Eurostar have half the seats facing
forward and half backward.
>On the Eurostar, I noticed there is a restaurant car. Is it safe to
>leave our luggage behind, or should we take turns going to the
>restaurant? I mean no disrespect, but I have heard mixed opinions
>about the number of thieves on trains.
Using the restaurant car on Eurostar can be a huge hassle. And
it's more like a snack car. It's only a three hour trip, and a
meal at a station restaurant at either end is likely to be more
satisfying. I've been on Eurostar four times, and they always had
a snack trolley like on an airplane, but it can be damn slow
getting to you.
************* DAVE HATUNEN (hat...@cox.net) *************
* Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow *
* My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps *
David Horne, _the_ chancellor of the royal duchy of city south and deansgate
> On 19 Nov 2006 09:08:46 -0800, "Dan" <dan_h...@hailmail.net>
> wrote:
>
> >All,
> >
> >I will be travelling by train next week from Rome to Naples, to
> >Florence, then back to Rome. This will be my first experience with
> >trains. I have reserved my seats on each train (ticketless option).
> >The first is an IC Plus train (first class). The other two are second
> >class on the Eurostar.
>
> Be careful with your terminology. "Reservation" does not mean a
> ticket like it does for an airline. In general, the ticket is
> your fare, and the reservation, which is not always necessary,
> reserves you a specific seat. And on some local trains there are
> no seat reservations. Seat reservations cost a few bucks.
Not in the UK they don't. They've been free for a while now, unless
there are some operators which charge that I don't know about.
>
> The exception is certain special trains, including the Eurostar
> (channel tunnel), which combine the seat reservation and ticket
> together like most airlines (of course, these days some airlines
> don't reserve you a specific seat at all).
The exception also includes online prebooked tickets on long distance UK
services which include the seat reservation as well as the ticket. That
said, I often choose to sit elsewhere, and providing the train isn't
full, it doesn't create problems. The annoying thing is that you can't
select the kind of seat you want (at least on thetrainline.com, maybe
you can at the station or on the phone) so I might want a seat with a
table for the laptop etc.
Lennart Petersen
"Hatunen" <hat...@cox.net> skrev i meddelandet
news:qhp3m25a824ptgv9e...@4ax.com...
----------
O.p is talking about Italy, and no doubt he have booked Eurostar Italia,
not to be confused with the channel trains. Eurostar Italia includes a
decent dining car providing full meals.
David Horne, _the_ chancellor of the royal duchy of city south and deansgate
[]
> O.p is talking about Italy, and no doubt he have booked Eurostar Italia,
> not to be confused with the channel trains. Eurostar Italia includes a
> decent dining car providing full meals.
Does it provide decent coffee? I haven't been on a train anywhere in
Europe which did, though I'd guess Italy might be one of the better
bets. (What's so hard about it?) That said, the coffee I bought on a
train leaving Udine a few months ago was execrable.
B Vaughan
>On 19 Nov 2006 09:08:46 -0800, "Dan" <dan_h...@hailmail.net>
>wrote:
>>
>>I will be travelling by train next week from Rome to Naples, to
>>Florence, then back to Rome. This will be my first experience with
>>trains. I have reserved my seats on each train (ticketless option).
>>The first is an IC Plus train (first class). The other two are second
>>class on the Eurostar.
>
>Be careful with your terminology. "Reservation" does not mean a
>ticket like it does for an airline. In general, the ticket is
>your fare, and the reservation, which is not always necessary,
>reserves you a specific seat. And on some local trains there are
>no seat reservations. Seat reservations cost a few bucks.
In the case of Eurostar Italia and ICPlus trains, the ticket price
includes a (mandatory) reservation, so I don't think he's confused.
>Seat numbers on trains like Eurostar are pretty much visible just
>like on an airliner. Each carriage will have an entrance at each
>end. Some trains will have luggage racks at the doors at each
>end. The Eurostar makes so few stops a thief is likely to be
>pretty frustrated trying to snatch your bags and running off.
I assume you're speaking of the Eurostar that goes under the English
Channel? Since the original poster mentioned a trip wholly within
Italy, he surely means Eurostar Italia.
B Vaughan
this_address...@yahoo.co.uk (David Horne, _the_ chancellor of
the royal duchy of city south and deansgate) wrote:
>Lennart Petersen <lennart....@swipnet.se> wrote:
>
>[]
>> O.p is talking about Italy, and no doubt he have booked Eurostar Italia,
>> not to be confused with the channel trains. Eurostar Italia includes a
>> decent dining car providing full meals.
>
>Does it provide decent coffee? I haven't been on a train anywhere in
>Europe which did, though I'd guess Italy might be one of the better
>bets. (What's so hard about it?) That said, the coffee I bought on a
>train leaving Udine a few months ago was execrable.
I've had some really awful cold Nescafé stuff on Italian trains. On
the other hand, when I lived in the Netherlands (20 years ago now)
they also served a decent filtered coffee. Maybe that's changed like
so many other things.
David Horne, _the_ chancellor of the royal duchy of city south and deansgate
> On Mon, 20 Nov 2006 20:54:11 +0000,
> this_address...@yahoo.co.uk (David Horne, _the_ chancellor of
> the royal duchy of city south and deansgate) wrote:
>
> >Lennart Petersen <lennart....@swipnet.se> wrote:
> >
> >[]
> >> O.p is talking about Italy, and no doubt he have booked Eurostar Italia,
> >> not to be confused with the channel trains. Eurostar Italia includes a
> >> decent dining car providing full meals.
> >
> >Does it provide decent coffee? I haven't been on a train anywhere in
> >Europe which did, though I'd guess Italy might be one of the better
> >bets. (What's so hard about it?) That said, the coffee I bought on a
> >train leaving Udine a few months ago was execrable.
>
> I've had some really awful cold Nescafé stuff on Italian trains. On
> the other hand, when I lived in the Netherlands (20 years ago now)
> they also served a decent filtered coffee. Maybe that's changed like
> so many other things.
UK trains have had horrible instant for as long as I remember. The
Virgin trains have machines which grind beans then brew, etc., which is
an improvement, but it's not as good as an espresso or a good filter
coffee IMO. Any big station here has several outlets were you can get a
decent coffee, so I usually 'stock up' before getting on board, but it's
tougher for the long journeys...
Donald Newcomb
> That is not my experience. When I find a sign, it's accurate. They put
> the sign up precisely because of the problem with changing direction.
Where I ran into this is the undergound station in Naples while waiting for
the EuroStar.
There were signs. I don't recall if they were hanging from the cieling or on
the floor but when the train came in everyone waiting had to grab their bags
and swap ends.
The Reid
this_address...@yahoo.co.uk (David Horne, _the_ chancellor of
the royal duchy of city south and deansgate) wrote:
> Seat reservations cost a few bucks.
>
>Not in the UK they don't. They've been free for a while now,
I'd like a seat, let alone a booked one! :-)
--
Mike Reid
Walk-eat-photos UK "http://www.fellwalk.co.uk" <-- you can email us@ this site
Walk-eat-photos Spain "http://www.fell-walker.co.uk"
Beginners UK flight sims "http://www.lawn-mower-man.co.uk"
David Horne, _the_ chancellor of the royal duchy of city south and deansgate
> On Mon, 20 Nov 2006 20:49:40 +0000,
> this_address...@yahoo.co.uk (David Horne, _the_ chancellor of
> the royal duchy of city south and deansgate) wrote:
>
> > Seat reservations cost a few bucks.
> >
> >Not in the UK they don't. They've been free for a while now,
>
> I'd like a seat, let alone a booked one! :-)
It's been a while since I didn't have one, but I don't travel during
rush hour if I can avoid it. On the local commuter services, you can't
book seats. However there are some routes which combine long distance
with local travel- Birmingham to Wolverhampton (and then on to
Manchester, Glasgow etc.) is one that comes to mind, and I've been
grateful of my reservations on those trains sometimes!
Giovanni Drogo
> Be careful with your terminology. "Reservation" does not mean a
> ticket like it does for an airline. In general, the ticket is
> your fare, and the reservation, which is not always necessary,
> reserves you a specific seat. And on some local trains there are
> no seat reservations. Seat reservations cost a few bucks.
The OP was talking about Italy. Here there are trains where reservation
is not possible (local, regional, interregional), trains with compulsory
reservation (ES), trains with optional reservations (IC).
> The exception is certain special trains, including the Eurostar
> (channel tunnel), which combine the seat reservation and ticket
The "Eurostar" the OP was referring to was an italian ES. Since a few
years that sort of train is a global price, compulsory reservation
train, so you get only one ticket (and since it is linked to a train do
not have to stamp it). For other trains you can get separately the
ticket and the reservation. A relatively new thing are IC Plus, which
are also compulsory reservation. The reservation is 1 euro more than the
IC fare, and is included in the same ticket. If you are going to travel
from A to B with intermediate changes, you'd better specify to the clerk
which trains you intend to take, and you are likely to receive not a
single ticket, but a bunch of tickets with the different fares.
Italian train fares are an ever changing mess.
Probably a bit so also elsewhere. I am not so up-to-date on Germany,
once IC tickets used to be made of a standard fare ticket, and a
supplement (Zuschlag, unlike italian supplements which varied with
distance, this was a fixed amount), which included reservation (and also
free reservation on any connecting IC). Later they mantained the
supplement, but reservation was optional and paid extra. What is the
situation now ?
> doorways. Also, there should be a diagram posted on a board
> somewhere showing the composition of the train, a sort of map of
> the train. Take a look at this and find your car. Unfortunately,
> it is not always clear which way the train will be heading, so as
Usually the diagrams on the platforms show train mockups with the engine
drawn in the real direction it will be travelling.
> Incidentally, trains like Eurostar have half the seats facing
> forward and half backward.
Not true for italian ES, nor the typical ETR500 trainsets, nor the
ETR460 or ETR470 if you mean one half of the car has seats all facing
forward (but each seat facing the next seat back) and the other half
facing backward. I wish they were. Instead seats are arranged in groups
of 4, facing each other (like a mini compartment with no walls), and
with a fixed table in the middle ... which is a pain in the ... knees
:-)
> Using the restaurant car on Eurostar can be a huge hassle. And
> it's more like a snack car. It's only a three hour trip, and a
As I said already, snack cars may be available on some IC trains, and
perhaps on older ETR450 sets, but ETR460/70/500 will have a proper
restaurant car operated with fixed shifts. For me price not worth the
value.
About coffee, these cars should have a bar section with a real espresso
machine, so coffee will be at normal italian bar standards. The coffee
of the snack trolleys going along the train instead will be at normal
airline standard (bleah).
ALAN HARRISON
"Donald Newcomb" <DRNe...@NOT.attglobal.net> wrote in message
news:45623f3b@kcnews01...
> "B Vaughan" <m...@privacy.net> wrote in message
> news:bmb3m25n47gj9susf...@4ax.com...
>> That is not my experience. When I find a sign, it's accurate. They put
>> the sign up precisely because of the problem with changing direction.
>
> Where I ran into this is the undergound station in Naples while waiting
> for
> the EuroStar.
> There were signs. I don't recall if they were hanging from the cieling or
> on
> the floor but when the train came in everyone waiting had to grab their
> bags
> and swap ends.
Trains can run in reverse formation for a number of reasons. (e.g.
Diversions sometimes cause trains to arrive at Birmingham New Street,
busiest station in the UK outside London, from the "wrong" end, and that set
may then spend some time with its first class carriages at the further end
from London, until it is diverted again, or can be conveniently reversed.)
On holiday in Italy a few months ago, I noticed that the announvements at
the local station (Desenzano on the Milan-Venice line), catered for this,
with a recorded female voice giving most of the train imfo, and then a male
(real) voice announcing where the first class cars would be.
Alan Harrison
The Reid
this_address...@yahoo.co.uk (David Horne, _the_ chancellor of
the royal duchy of city south and deansgate) wrote:
>> I'd like a seat, let alone a booked one! :-)
>
>It's been a while since I didn't have one, but I don't travel during
>rush hour if I can avoid it.
nice life if you can get it
>On the local commuter services, you can't
>book seats.
this is true!
>However there are some routes which combine long distance
>with local travel- Birmingham to Wolverhampton (and then on to
>Manchester, Glasgow etc.) is one that comes to mind, and I've been
>grateful of my reservations on those trains sometimes!
so you get on the local train and tell the commuters to "get out of my
seat, Jhimmy"?
David Horne, _the_ chancellor of the royal duchy of city south and deansgate
> On Tue, 21 Nov 2006 10:41:09 +0000,
> this_address...@yahoo.co.uk (David Horne, _the_ chancellor of
> the royal duchy of city south and deansgate) wrote:
[]
> >However there are some routes which combine long distance
> >with local travel- Birmingham to Wolverhampton (and then on to
> >Manchester, Glasgow etc.) is one that comes to mind, and I've been
> >grateful of my reservations on those trains sometimes!
>
> so you get on the local train and tell the commuters to "get out of my
> seat, Jhimmy"?
Yes, but it's obvious it is reserved- never had a problem actually.
Markku Grönroos
"ALAN HARRISON" <alanth...@btopenworld.com> kirjoitti
viestissä:iaednboRUee...@bt.com...
>
>
> On holiday in Italy a few months ago, I noticed that the announvements at
> the local station (Desenzano on the Milan-Venice line), catered for this,
> with a recorded female voice giving most of the train imfo, and then a
> male (real) voice announcing where the first class cars would be.
>
David Horne, _the_ chancellor of the royal duchy of city south and deansgate
Depends how much voddy you've gone through on the platform.
Neil Williams
> Actually you need to board coach #2. This could be the second car from the
> front or the second from the end.
It could also be somewhere else. On some trains, especially night
trains, coaches can be out of order. It could also be missing, but
that's a lot less likely, and if it does happen find the guard and ask
what to do as it varies by whether the train has compulsory reservation
or not.
> No that would be impossible.
But you can usually walk through if you need to. That said, some high
speed trains that run in pairs (e.g. double Virgin Voyagers in the
UK,double ICE3s in Germany) are made of two units that you can't.
Neil
Neil Williams
> Seats numbers are viewable, but sometimes I found the arrangement is not
> sequential or obvious (in open space ES cars ... it is strictly
> sequential in older compartment IC cars ... in this case 53 and 54 would
> be in compartment 5.
And now for something I've always wondered - why *aren't* they
sequential in airline and table-seated open cars in mainland Europe?
I've always suspected it was to do with two rows creating a virtual
compartment, so the same numbers would give the same type of seat
(window, middle, aisle) and that consecutive numbers would be opposite
one another in the compartment, but that isn't always the case.
What *is* it based on?
Neil
Neil Williams
> Indeed. A decade ago, my ex had his luggage stolen (including the bag
> with his passport)
I hear about this a lot. When I travel, my passport is almost always
kept in a closable pocket or the hotel safe. Why do people leave them
lying around?
Neil
Neil Williams
> Using the restaurant car on Eurostar can be a huge hassle. And
> it's more like a snack car.
Careful - I think the OP may be referring to Eurostar Italia, which has
nothing to do with the under-Channel variety.
As for the Channel-crossing Eurostar, the best time to go to the buffet
is when you're in the tunnel, as an awful lot of people seem to think
you can't open those yellow safety doors; you can!
Neil
Neil Williams
deansgate wrote:
> Does it provide decent coffee? I haven't been on a train anywhere in
> Europe which did, though I'd guess Italy might be one of the better
> bets. (What's so hard about it?) That said, the coffee I bought on a
> train leaving Udine a few months ago was execrable.
Most of the problem is because they try to do too much. There is no
such thing as a good cup of coffee from an integrated bean-to-cup
machine, or not that I've ever experienced. Train companies should
stick to filter (preferably) and instant, or I'm having a cup of tea.
Neil
Neil Williams
> I've had some really awful cold Nescafé stuff on Italian trains. On
> the other hand, when I lived in the Netherlands (20 years ago now)
> they also served a decent filtered coffee. Maybe that's changed like
> so many other things.
Yep. No on-train catering in .nl any more, except a miserly trolley
service on the Internationale Treinen to Brussels, and the Thalys
buffet.
Neil
B Vaughan
<dr...@rn.bastiani.ta.invalid> wrote:
>Italian train fares are an ever changing mess.
It seems they are going to be raised substantially in 2007. Since they
are among the lowest in western Europe, I suppose that's inevitable.
>About coffee, these cars should have a bar section with a real espresso
>machine, so coffee will be at normal italian bar standards. The coffee
>of the snack trolleys going along the train instead will be at normal
>airline standard (bleah).
The coffee on the trolleys is even worse than airline coffee. At least
the latter is hot.
Not all Eurostar trains have restaurant cars. Some don't even have a
snack car.
B Vaughan
wrote:
Isn't an espresso machine an integrated bean-to-cup machine?
I can't abide instant coffee, and I've never had a decent cup of tea
on a train. Except for my morning cup of cappuccino, I would prefer
tea to coffee, but the tea I can find while travelling is consistently
undrinkable. I often travel with a thermos of tea. I suppose I can't
take that on a plane any more.
B Vaughan
wrote:
>B Vaughan wrote:
When I was in the Netherlands, the trolley prepared you a nice
filtered coffee: a plastic cup with a little filter apparatus atop it,
containing a decent coffee. They poured the hot water into the filter.
Martin Bienwald
> I can't abide instant coffee, and I've never had a decent cup of tea
> on a train.
The tea served in DB restaurant cars isn't that bad IMHO. (Their coffee is
drinkable, too, but not as good as the coffee in Italian restaurant cars.)
> I suppose I can't take that on a plane any more.
Lufthansa served surprisingly good tea last year.
... Martin
B Vaughan
I like my tea strong... really strong.
David Horne, _the_ chancellor of the royal duchy of city south and deansgate
Because they're not thinking. You snipped the bit where I noted that
this was all avoidable.
David Horne, _the_ chancellor of the royal duchy of city south and deansgate
> On Tue, 21 Nov 2006 11:55:26 +0100, Giovanni Drogo
> <dr...@rn.bastiani.ta.invalid> wrote:
>
> >Italian train fares are an ever changing mess.
>
> It seems they are going to be raised substantially in 2007. Since they
> are among the lowest in western Europe, I suppose that's inevitable.
Probably. Even in the UK, which has high fares, they are mostly
subsidised to some extent- surprisingly. Italians seem to love their
cars (and vile noisy motorbikes) as much as everyone else, alas- so
expect less public transport, and more, uh, cars in the future. No one
really cares...
That said, the 'ever changing mess' of fares here has its advantages. I
have to go to London tomorrow and my ticket cost £18 return (360 miles
total), which would surely be OK by Italian standards too? Ten times
less than an open peak return mind you... :(
Otter
"Neil Williams" <pace...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1164116603.7...@h54g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
I had to pick up some family at Rome airport, and took the train from
Termini. It was the usual train, and there were a lot of others making the
trip. There was a unlit train nearby. At the last moment, they decided that
the train was not going, but the train nearby was, in the very near future.
Everyone got off and onto the now lit train.
Someone asked (an American, of course) why that had happened.
The answer, of course, was that there doesn't have to be a reason.
Otter
"Magda" <chris...@hey.eu> wrote in message
news:p2g6m2133v8644s2v...@4ax.com...
> On Tue, 21 Nov 2006 18:58:15 +0100, in rec.travel.europe, B
> Vaughan<m...@privacy.net>
> arranged some electrons, so they looked like this:
>
> ... On Tue, 21 Nov 2006 16:20:43 +0000 (UTC), Martin Bienwald
> ... <martin....@gmx.de> wrote:
> ...
> ... >B Vaughan wrote:
> ... >
> ... >> I can't abide instant coffee, and I've never had a decent cup of
> tea
> ... >> on a train.
> ... >
> ... >The tea served in DB restaurant cars isn't that bad IMHO. (Their
> coffee is
> ... >drinkable, too, but not as good as the coffee in Italian restaurant
> cars.)
> ... >
> ... >> I suppose I can't take that on a plane any more.
> ... >
> ... >Lufthansa served surprisingly good tea last year.
> ...
> ... I like my tea strong... really strong.
>
> Russian tea is made for you.
Served with the traditional surly expression?
David Horne, _the_ chancellor of the royal duchy of city south and deansgate
> On 21 Nov 2006 05:55:24 -0800, "Neil Williams" <pace...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> >David Horne, _the_ chancellor of the royal duchy of city south and
> >deansgate wrote:
> >
> >> Does it provide decent coffee? I haven't been on a train anywhere in
> >> Europe which did, though I'd guess Italy might be one of the better
> >> bets. (What's so hard about it?) That said, the coffee I bought on a
> >> train leaving Udine a few months ago was execrable.
> >
> >Most of the problem is because they try to do too much. There is no
> >such thing as a good cup of coffee from an integrated bean-to-cup
> >machine, or not that I've ever experienced. Train companies should
> >stick to filter (preferably) and instant, or I'm having a cup of tea.
>
> Isn't an espresso machine an integrated bean-to-cup machine?
No. The machine Neil is talking about automatically grinds the beans,
then brews them- no human interaction. It's just not the same as an
espresso- no doubt someone can explain why. A similar machine exists in
the hotel dining room in Barcelona where I have breakfast every second
week at the moment. The rest of the breakfast offerings are fine (apart
from the watery "juice") but the coffee is terrible. I usually have a
delicious "solo" later on in a nearby cafe...
The Reid
wrote:
> Why do people leave them
>lying around?
why do people vote for Bush, have unprotected sex, believe salesmen?
The Reid
>I can't abide instant coffee, and I've never had a decent cup of tea
>on a train. Except for my morning cup of cappuccino, I would prefer
>tea to coffee, but the tea I can find while travelling is consistently
>undrinkable. I often travel with a thermos of tea.
Am I alone in not much caring? I'm a bit of a foodie but all this
stuff about coffee and tea on trains goes over my head, I can live
with instant on a train and not worry. I'm more worried about the
train arriving, lack of seats, chewing gum and the great unwashed.
The FT had a big article about tea the other day, how teabags were the
work of the devil. so we did a test (my wife has a very good palette
and can tell producers what herbs and spices are in thier products)
between Waitrose Kenya teabags and leaves, no difference.
I think , as with wine, a load of old bollocks gets talked about
drinks for some reason. I find much more difference between frozen NZ
lamb and Herdwicke mutton, (for instance) than two indistinquishable
wines or beers.
<space left for some condescending tosser to ponificate>
(comment should begin "the discerning realise...." "dont you know..."
or similar).
.
.
.
.
The Reid
this_address...@yahoo.co.uk (David Horne, _the_ chancellor of
the royal duchy of city south and deansgate) wrote:
>Probably. Even in the UK, which has high fares, they are mostly
>subsidised to some extent- surprisingly.
Surprisingly? Most PT runs on subsidy, otherwise it wouldn't exist.
Not saying its not a good thing, but its an economic fact of life.
Dave Frightens Me
>On 21 Nov 2006 05:55:24 -0800, "Neil Williams" <pace...@gmail.com>
>wrote:
>
>>David Horne, _the_ chancellor of the royal duchy of city south and
>>deansgate wrote:
>>
>>> Does it provide decent coffee? I haven't been on a train anywhere in
>>> Europe which did, though I'd guess Italy might be one of the better
>>> bets. (What's so hard about it?) That said, the coffee I bought on a
>>> train leaving Udine a few months ago was execrable.
>>
>>Most of the problem is because they try to do too much. There is no
>>such thing as a good cup of coffee from an integrated bean-to-cup
>>machine, or not that I've ever experienced. Train companies should
>>stick to filter (preferably) and instant, or I'm having a cup of tea.
>
>Isn't an espresso machine an integrated bean-to-cup machine?
>
>I can't abide instant coffee,
Niether can I with one big exception. There's a Swiss brand of instant
call Voncoré which is rather good. Not really like freshly brewed
coffee, but with a nice flavour anyway.
Sadly it's not available outside of Switzerland.
--
---
DFM - http://www.deepfriedmars.com
---
--
Dave Frightens Me
the royal duchy of city south and deansgate) wrote:
>B Vaughan <m...@privacy.net> wrote:
>
>> On Tue, 21 Nov 2006 11:55:26 +0100, Giovanni Drogo
>> <dr...@rn.bastiani.ta.invalid> wrote:
>>
>> >Italian train fares are an ever changing mess.
>>
>> It seems they are going to be raised substantially in 2007. Since they
>> are among the lowest in western Europe, I suppose that's inevitable.
>
>Probably. Even in the UK, which has high fares, they are mostly
>subsidised to some extent- surprisingly. Italians seem to love their
>cars (and vile noisy motorbikes) as much as everyone else, alas- so
>expect less public transport, and more, uh, cars in the future. No one
>really cares...
Most motorbikes are actually scooters in Italy, and they make little
noise, except (ironically) for the low powered 50cc ones.
David Horne, _the_ chancellor of the royal duchy of city south and deansgate
Little noise might be relative then, because I find them annoying.
David Horne, _the_ chancellor of the royal duchy of city south and deansgate
> On Tue, 21 Nov 2006 21:04:46 +0000,
> this_address...@yahoo.co.uk (David Horne, _the_ chancellor of
> the royal duchy of city south and deansgate) wrote:
>
> >Probably. Even in the UK, which has high fares, they are mostly
> >subsidised to some extent- surprisingly.
>
> Surprisingly?
Given the high fares.
David Horne, _the_ chancellor of the royal duchy of city south and deansgate
> On Tue, 21 Nov 2006 17:11:18 +0100, B Vaughan<m...@privacy.net> wrote:
>
> >I can't abide instant coffee, and I've never had a decent cup of tea
> >on a train. Except for my morning cup of cappuccino, I would prefer
> >tea to coffee, but the tea I can find while travelling is consistently
> >undrinkable. I often travel with a thermos of tea.
>
> Am I alone in not much caring?
You're probably not alone, but other people do care. Manchester
Piccadilly must have half a dozen outlets serving espresso, and at 8am
this morning, there were long lines at all of them. Many of the people
on my train this morning took coffee on with them. I had to make do with
the train coffee, which admittedly is better than it used to be, but
still isn't very good. I had time for a good coffee in a sandwich bar
after arriving (most of these now will have at least an espresso bar) so
it worked out fine! :)
> I'm a bit of a foodie but all this
> stuff about coffee and tea on trains goes over my head, I can live
> with instant on a train and not worry. I'm more worried about the
> train arriving, lack of seats, chewing gum and the great unwashed.
I worry about it, because on the vast majority of my train journeys, a
lot of which are over 2 hours, I'm not concerned by punctuality, lack of
seats, chewing gum or the, uh, 'great unwashed.' I'll let you worry
about them.
Hatunen
this_address...@yahoo.co.uk (David Horne, _the_
chancellor of the royal duchy of city south and deansgate) wrote:
>Hatunen <hat...@cox.net> wrote:
>
>> On 19 Nov 2006 09:08:46 -0800, "Dan" <dan_h...@hailmail.net>
>> wrote:
>>
>> >All,
>> >
>> >I will be travelling by train next week from Rome to Naples, to
>> >Florence, then back to Rome. This will be my first experience with
>> >trains. I have reserved my seats on each train (ticketless option).
>> >The first is an IC Plus train (first class). The other two are second
>> >class on the Eurostar.
>>
>> Be careful with your terminology. "Reservation" does not mean a
>> ticket like it does for an airline. In general, the ticket is
>> your fare, and the reservation, which is not always necessary,
>> reserves you a specific seat. And on some local trains there are
>> no seat reservations. Seat reservations cost a few bucks.
>
>Not in the UK they don't. They've been free for a while now, unless
>there are some operators which charge that I don't know about.
>
>>
>> The exception is certain special trains, including the Eurostar
>> (channel tunnel), which combine the seat reservation and ticket
>> together like most airlines (of course, these days some airlines
>> don't reserve you a specific seat at all).
>
>The exception also includes online prebooked tickets on long distance UK
>services which include the seat reservation as well as the ticket. That
>said, I often choose to sit elsewhere, and providing the train isn't
>full, it doesn't create problems. The annoying thing is that you can't
>select the kind of seat you want (at least on thetrainline.com, maybe
>you can at the station or on the phone) so I might want a seat with a
>table for the laptop etc.
UK rail service being somewhat abberant compared with continental
service, not least due to the effects of privatization, I hereby
issue a disclaimer that none of my comments includes UK rail,
should anyone consider the UK to be "European".
************* DAVE HATUNEN (hat...@cox.net) *************
* Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow *
* My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps *
Hatunen
wrote:
>On Mon, 20 Nov 2006 10:50:02 -0700, Hatunen <hat...@cox.net> wrote:
>
>>On 19 Nov 2006 09:08:46 -0800, "Dan" <dan_h...@hailmail.net>
>>wrote:
>>>
>>>I will be travelling by train next week from Rome to Naples, to
>>>Florence, then back to Rome. This will be my first experience with
>>>trains. I have reserved my seats on each train (ticketless option).
>>>The first is an IC Plus train (first class). The other two are second
>>>class on the Eurostar.
>>
>>Be careful with your terminology. "Reservation" does not mean a
>>ticket like it does for an airline. In general, the ticket is
>>your fare, and the reservation, which is not always necessary,
>>reserves you a specific seat. And on some local trains there are
>>no seat reservations. Seat reservations cost a few bucks.
>
>In the case of Eurostar Italia and ICPlus trains, the ticket price
>includes a (mandatory) reservation, so I don't think he's confused.
>
>>Seat numbers on trains like Eurostar are pretty much visible just
>>like on an airliner. Each carriage will have an entrance at each
>>end. Some trains will have luggage racks at the doors at each
>>end. The Eurostar makes so few stops a thief is likely to be
>>pretty frustrated trying to snatch your bags and running off.
>
>I assume you're speaking of the Eurostar that goes under the English
>Channel? Since the original poster mentioned a trip wholly within
>Italy, he surely means Eurostar Italia.
Right. Mea culpa.
David Horne, _the_ chancellor of the royal duchy of city south and deansgate
> On Mon, 20 Nov 2006 20:49:40 +0000,
[]
> should anyone consider the UK to be "European".
Of course it is. What a silly thing to say.
bar...@cix.compulink.co.uk
royal duchy of city south and deansgate) wrote:
> *From:* this_address...@yahoo.co.uk (David Horne, _the_
> chancellor of the royal duchy of city south and deansgate)
> *Date:* Wed, 22 Nov 2006 17:48:06 +0000
>
> The Reid <don...@fellwalk.co.uk> wrote:
>
> > On Tue, 21 Nov 2006 17:11:18 +0100, B Vaughan<m...@privacy.net> wrote:
> >
> > >I can't abide instant coffee, and I've never had a decent cup of tea
> > >on a train. Except for my morning cup of cappuccino, I would prefer
> > >tea to coffee, but the tea I can find while travelling is
> > consistently
> > >undrinkable. I often travel with a thermos of tea.
> >
> > Am I alone in not much caring?
>
> You're probably not alone, but other people do care.
I don't know if this is taking it to absurd extremes, but when I have the
choice of changing at either Ely or Peterborough I always choose the
former - much better coffee!
David Horne, _the_ chancellor of the royal duchy of city south and deansgate
Again, Barney, you're simply a man after my heart. :)
(We'll put the smoking issue aside!)
Padraig Breathnach
the royal duchy of city south and deansgate) wrote:
>Hatunen <hat...@cox.net> wrote:
>
>> should anyone consider the UK to be "European".
>
>Of course it is. What a silly thing to say.
Rupert Murdoch (who has the sense of identity of a chameleon) has
spent years trying to convince the British people otherwise.
--
PB
The return address has been MUNGED
My travel writing: http://www.iol.ie/~draoi/
David Horne, _the_ chancellor of the royal duchy of city south and deansgate
> this_address...@yahoo.co.uk (David Horne, _the_ chancellor of
> the royal duchy of city south and deansgate) wrote:
>
> >Hatunen <hat...@cox.net> wrote:
> >
> >> should anyone consider the UK to be "European".
> >
> >Of course it is. What a silly thing to say.
>
> Rupert Murdoch (who has the sense of identity of a chameleon) has
> spent years trying to convince the British people otherwise.
I don't care what Murdoch thinks. I'm a Scot, a Norwegian, a Brit, and a
European, and if Dave Hatunen wants to play silly games, then the next
time someone tars _all_ USAans (which come to think of it, includes
Murdoch) as mass murderers because they elected a President, _twice_,
with a taste for it... I'll sit on my hands.
B Vaughan
wrote:
>The FT had a big article about tea the other day, how teabags were the
>work of the devil. so we did a test (my wife has a very good palette
>and can tell producers what herbs and spices are in thier products)
>between Waitrose Kenya teabags and leaves, no difference.
The problem with tea served in trains, restaurants, etc. is not so
much the tea bag as that the tea is almost always made with water
that's not hot enough. I can definitely tell the difference between
tea made with boiling water and tea made with merely hot water.
You can get a decent cup of tea with a good tea bag, but no tea bag
uses the best qualities of tea. They usually have an awful lot of
powdery pulverized tea and very few tips. However, a lot of loose tea
is also inferior. The best tea bags don't measure up with the best
loose teas, because the better teas aren't used to make tea bags. I
recently read that this is starting to change, but I haven't seen any
estate tea bags yet.
>I think , as with wine, a load of old bollocks gets talked about
>drinks for some reason. I find much more difference between frozen NZ
>lamb and Herdwicke mutton, (for instance) than two indistinquishable
>wines or beers.
Some things are indistinguishable to some people but not to others.
B Vaughan
this_address...@yahoo.co.uk (David Horne, _the_ chancellor of
the royal duchy of city south and deansgate) wrote:
>That said, the 'ever changing mess' of fares here has its advantages. I
>have to go to London tomorrow and my ticket cost £18 return (360 miles
>total), which would surely be OK by Italian standards too? Ten times
>less than an open peak return mind you... :(
It's hard to find an exact equivalent, but Genoa to Rome is 524 km,
which is close. If you had to make that trip tomorrow, with a standard
ticket, you could get an IC train that would get you there in about 5
hours (some under, some over) for 34 euros. That's only a little more
than your super discounted fare. You could travel cheaper on
interregional trains. However, there are also "libertà di viaggiare"
(freedom of travel) fares. These can be as low as 15 euros for IC
trains. There is a similar promotion for EC trains; I forget what it's
called. You have to get these in advance, and they are not available
on every line nor at all times.
B Vaughan
<deepfreudmoors@eITmISaACTUALLYiREAL!l.nu> wrote:
>Most motorbikes are actually scooters in Italy, and they make little
>noise, except (ironically) for the low powered 50cc ones.
Those are the ones that teenagers can use from the age of 14. They are
sold relatively noiseless and travel only at rather sedate speeds.
However, they are always souped up to be loud and fast.
Dave Frightens Me
this_address...@yahoo.co.uk (David Horne, _the_ chancellor of
the royal duchy of city south and deansgate) wrote:
>Dave Frightens Me <deepfreudmoors@eITmISaACTUALLYiREAL!l.nu> wrote:
>
>> On Tue, 21 Nov 2006 21:04:46 +0000,
>> this_address...@yahoo.co.uk (David Horne, _the_ chancellor of
>> the royal duchy of city south and deansgate) wrote:
>>
>> >B Vaughan <m...@privacy.net> wrote:
>> >
>> >> On Tue, 21 Nov 2006 11:55:26 +0100, Giovanni Drogo
>> >> <dr...@rn.bastiani.ta.invalid> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> >Italian train fares are an ever changing mess.
>> >>
>> >> It seems they are going to be raised substantially in 2007. Since they
>> >> are among the lowest in western Europe, I suppose that's inevitable.
>> >
>> >Probably. Even in the UK, which has high fares, they are mostly
>> >subsidised to some extent- surprisingly. Italians seem to love their
>> >cars (and vile noisy motorbikes) as much as everyone else, alas- so
>> >expect less public transport, and more, uh, cars in the future. No one
>> >really cares...
>>
>> Most motorbikes are actually scooters in Italy, and they make little
>> noise, except (ironically) for the low powered 50cc ones.
>
>Little noise might be relative then, because I find them annoying.
Then it may be for other reasons too.
Dave Frightens Me
>On Wed, 22 Nov 2006 10:38:00 +0100, Dave Frightens Me
><deepfreudmoors@eITmISaACTUALLYiREAL!l.nu> wrote:
>
>>Most motorbikes are actually scooters in Italy, and they make little
>>noise, except (ironically) for the low powered 50cc ones.
>
>Those are the ones that teenagers can use from the age of 14. They are
>sold relatively noiseless and travel only at rather sedate speeds.
>However, they are always souped up to be loud and fast.
Well, almost always. I would say around here about 90% are modified. A
damn shame the cops don't crack down on them.
Dave Frightens Me
>On Wed, 22 Nov 2006 08:54:22 +0000, The Reid <don...@fellwalk.co.uk>
>wrote:
>>I think , as with wine, a load of old bollocks gets talked about
>>drinks for some reason. I find much more difference between frozen NZ
>>lamb and Herdwicke mutton, (for instance) than two indistinquishable
>>wines or beers.
>
>Some things are indistinguishable to some people but not to others.
Very diplomatic! ;o)
It's true though, I can't distinguish a good espresso from an ok one,
and Italians can't tell an awful beer from an excellent one - no
matter what they say!
Heikki Kantola
rec.travel.europe with the following:
> Hatunen <hat...@cox.net> wrote:
>> On 19 Nov 2006 09:08:46 -0800, "Dan" <dan_h...@hailmail.net>
>> wrote:
>> >I will be travelling by train next week from Rome to Naples, to
>> >Florence, then back to Rome. This will be my first experience with
>> >trains. I have reserved my seats on each train (ticketless option).
>> >The first is an IC Plus train (first class). The other two are second
>> >class on the Eurostar.
>>
>> Be careful with your terminology. "Reservation" does not mean a
>> ticket like it does for an airline. In general, the ticket is
>> your fare, and the reservation, which is not always necessary,
>> reserves you a specific seat. And on some local trains there are
>> no seat reservations. Seat reservations cost a few bucks.
>
> there are some operators which charge that I don't know about.
Similarly in Finnish long-range trains too, although technically here
the seat reservation is not free, but its fee is now integrated in the
ticket price. On the other hand if you buy the ticket onboard the price
is still the same even as you don't get a designated seating - although
I think there are few places reserved for passangers that may board
from a station, which does not feature a ticket sales.
>> The exception is certain special trains, including the Eurostar
>> (channel tunnel), which combine the seat reservation and ticket
>> together like most airlines (of course, these days some airlines
>> don't reserve you a specific seat at all).
>
> The exception also includes online prebooked tickets on long distance UK
> services which include the seat reservation as well as the ticket. That
> said, I often choose to sit elsewhere, and providing the train isn't
> full, it doesn't create problems. The annoying thing is that you can't
> select the kind of seat you want (at least on thetrainline.com, maybe
> you can at the station or on the phone) so I might want a seat with a
> table for the laptop etc.
>
Looks like vr.fi's web sales is more advanced, you can choose your
preference (window/aisle seat, upper/lower level on doubledecker
cars, pet compartment, table place with power socket, wheelchair
space, seat in allergy friendly compartment, seat in family
compartment or car with playroom).
--
Heikki "Hezu" Kantola, <Heikki....@IKI.FI>
Lähettämällä mainoksia tai muuta asiatonta sähköpostia yllä olevaan
osoitteeseen sitoudut maksamaan oikolukupalvelusta EUR100 alkavalta
tunnilta.
ALAN HARRISON
From: "B Vaughan" <m...@privacy.net>
Newsgroups: rec.travel.europe
Sent: Wednesday, November 22, 2006 8:09 PM
Subject: Re: Train Travel in Europe
> It's hard to find an exact equivalent, but Genoa to Rome is 524 km,
> which is close. If you had to make that trip tomorrow, with a standard
> ticket, you could get an IC train that would get you there in about 5
> hours (some under, some over) for 34 euros.
But that's one way, Barbara! David's £18 fare was a return.
The problem with the British pricing system is that such ultra-cheap fares
are certainly available on a limited number of lines, if you can commit
yourself to a particular train and book well in advance. These will usually
be simple point-to-point trains with tickets only available on that
operator's services.
Some not quite so cheap services will be available on more complex routes.
For instance, the cheapest return fare from my local station (West Drayton)
to my hometown (Walsall) is a saver at about £36, routed via Reading and
Oxford, with changes of train at Reading and Birmingham, and services
provided by three operating companies: First Great Western to Reading,
Virgin Trains for Reading to Birmingham, and Central Trains from B'ham to
Walsall. This is subject to some (not too onerous) restrictions on peak-hour
travel, but is a "walk-up" fare. A fully flexible second-class return is
about £105 and the first class fare about £180.
Horror stories frequently appaer in the British press about people narrowly
missing connections, and being unable to take the next train on the desired
route because it isn't operated by the right company, and of people who
arrive at station A at 10.25, intending to catch the 10.30 to B. The train
to B arrives, they get on, and then are told by the ticket collector that
their ticket isn't valid, because this is actually the late-running 09.30,
on which cheap fares aren't available, followed by a demand for money with
menaces.
The great advantage of the Italian system is that generally available
walk-up tickets are cheap, rather than for tickets bought a month in advance
for Chuffa Trains' 11.20 from A to B, available on Wednesdays and Thursdays
when there's an R in the month.
Alan Harrison
Giovanni Drogo
> The problem with the British pricing system
I have recollections of ~20 years ago (BR times) when UK prices were
definitely higher and more complex than Italian prices (but the service
was more frequent, more regular, and information quality much better),
but NOT SO complex ... if one learned to ask day returns or weekend
returns ... and anyhow the clerk at Littlehaven station was always kind
enough to indicate the cheaper fare. I just thought this difference
between regular returns, monthly, weekend and day was one of those UK
oddities (SPQB :-)) like driving on the right (as they say :-)) side of
the road, using guineas, shilling and pences, using feet and stones etc
:-)
> Horror stories frequently appaer in the British press about people narrowly
> missing connections, and being unable to take the next train on the desired
> route because it isn't operated by the right company, and of people who
Are these horror stories true ?
My only experience with private companies was when several years ago I
had to go to Grasse from Cannes (by bus). I exited Cannes rail station,
and went to a counter selling bus ticket. I was sold a ticket, but then
when the bus came, it was not valid because it was another company, and
I had to wait.
This sort of things is why I look with fear to talks of liberalization /
privatization of public transport here in Italy.
> The great advantage of the Italian system is that generally available
> walk-up tickets are cheap,
They would have been cheap even if they'd kept the old fare system,
maybe even a bit cheaper. The old system was just the sum of two
progressive fares. Let's say N(d)+k*M(d), where d is the distance in
(conventional) km. N was the fare for normal trains, M was the
supplement for rapidi, or later ICs (and k is 0 for normal trains and 1
for trains requiring a supplement).
If you've seen Orario Grippaudo, the tables giving N(d) and M(d)
appeared in the last two pages. The "progressivity" of the system was
that N and M were not linear functions of d but flattened somehow, so
the difference between, say, a 1000 and a 1500 km ticket was cheaper
than a 500 km ticket.
Nowadays each kind of train (ES, IC plus, IC, all the others) have
different global fares, and even normal fares differ according to the
region, but if you travel across region a different fare applies. It is
well known that commuters to Milan from places like Voghera or Brescia
buy season cards from some station in Ligury or Veneto (farther from
Milan) because they are cheaper.
So now if you go, say, from Milan to Laigueglia, or Milan to Cervia, you
will get one IC plus ticket Milan-Alassio and one ligurian ticket
Alassio-Laigueglia or one ES ticket Milan-Bologna and one emilian ticket
Bologna-Ravenna-Cervia. And of course the distance scale is now reset at
each change ! Before you'd got a normal ticket Milan-Cervia and a
supplement for Milan-Bologna.
Plus all the limitations on change of reservation, refunds etc. which
may apply to offers when you book in advance.
Last time I went to Rome I travelled ES first class on the way in with
an offer, paying less than I paid with a normal ES second class on the
way back. But while I was sure I would leave with a given train, I
wanted to be able to change my return (in fact I came back earlier).
And I discovered later that the "offer" was not valid to collect points
on my Cartaviaggio (if I interpret correctly my account statement ...it
shows the amount of the offer added on the date of travel, and then
subtracted a few days after). I suspect the clerk who offered me the
offer did not even know of this, since he recorded the fare on the card.
--
----------------------------------------------------------------------
nos...@mi.iasf.cnr.it is a newsreading account used by more persons to
avoid unwanted spam. Any mail returning to this address will be rejected.
Users can disclose their e-mail address in the article if they wish so.
B Vaughan
>On Tue, 21 Nov 2006 21:04:46 +0000,
>this_address...@yahoo.co.uk (David Horne, _the_ chancellor of
>the royal duchy of city south and deansgate) wrote:
>
>>That said, the 'ever changing mess' of fares here has its advantages. I
>>have to go to London tomorrow and my ticket cost £18 return (360 miles
>>total), which would surely be OK by Italian standards too? Ten times
>>less than an open peak return mind you... :(
>
>It's hard to find an exact equivalent, but Genoa to Rome is 524 km,
>which is close. If you had to make that trip tomorrow, with a standard
>ticket, you could get an IC train that would get you there in about 5
>hours (some under, some over) for 34 euros. That's only a little more
>than your super discounted fare. You could travel cheaper on
>interregional trains. However, there are also "libertà di viaggiare"
>(freedom of travel) fares. These can be as low as 15 euros for IC
>trains. There is a similar promotion for EC trains; I forget what it's
>called. You have to get these in advance, and they are not available
>on every line nor at all times.
Alan Harrison pointed out in another subthread that I was comparing
single Italian fares with return British fares. However, the 15 euro
bargain fare still compares pretty well with the British fare.
B Vaughan
<alanth...@btopenworld.com> wrote:
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "B Vaughan" <m...@privacy.net>
>Newsgroups: rec.travel.europe
>Sent: Wednesday, November 22, 2006 8:09 PM
>Subject: Re: Train Travel in Europe
>
>
>> It's hard to find an exact equivalent, but Genoa to Rome is 524 km,
>> which is close. If you had to make that trip tomorrow, with a standard
>> ticket, you could get an IC train that would get you there in about 5
>> hours (some under, some over) for 34 euros.
>
>But that's one way, Barbara! David's £18 fare was a return.
Oh, right, I hadn't noticed. Well, then, the 15 euro fare, when it can
be found, would be 30 euros return, which is not much more than his 18
pound fare.
>The great advantage of the Italian system is that generally available
>walk-up tickets are cheap, rather than for tickets bought a month in advance
>for Chuffa Trains' 11.20 from A to B, available on Wednesdays and Thursdays
>when there's an R in the month.
The Italian system is beginning to change, though. They now have more
expensive flexible fares, deeply discounted fares on some routes, and
limited-time promotions.
David Horne, _the_ chancellor of the royal duchy of city south and deansgate
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "B Vaughan" <m...@privacy.net>
> Newsgroups: rec.travel.europe
> Sent: Wednesday, November 22, 2006 8:09 PM
> Subject: Re: Train Travel in Europe
>
>
> > It's hard to find an exact equivalent, but Genoa to Rome is 524 km,
> > which is close. If you had to make that trip tomorrow, with a standard
> > ticket, you could get an IC train that would get you there in about 5
> > hours (some under, some over) for 34 euros.
>
> But that's one way, Barbara! David's £18 fare was a return.
>
> The problem with the British pricing system is that such ultra-cheap fares
> are certainly available on a limited number of lines, if you can commit
> yourself to a particular train and book well in advance. These will usually
> be simple point-to-point trains with tickets only available on that
> operator's services.
This is true, but in this case I actually booked the ticket last Friday.
It's good to point the ticket system out to visitors though, who can
often be more flexible anyway. Even the open return from Manchester to
London (which is extortionate) is halved simply by booking the day
before. The open return is a fare clearly aimed at keeping people of
peak services. I don't like it, but I suppose it does do the job-
whenever I've been on those services they've been relatively empty.
David Horne, _the_ chancellor of the royal duchy of city south and deansgate
> On Wed, 22 Nov 2006 21:09:49 +0100, B Vaughan<m...@privacy.net> wrote:
>
> >On Tue, 21 Nov 2006 21:04:46 +0000,
> >this_address...@yahoo.co.uk (David Horne, _the_ chancellor of
> >the royal duchy of city south and deansgate) wrote:
> >
> >>That said, the 'ever changing mess' of fares here has its advantages. I
> >>have to go to London tomorrow and my ticket cost £18 return (360 miles
> >>total), which would surely be OK by Italian standards too? Ten times
> >>less than an open peak return mind you... :(
> >
> >It's hard to find an exact equivalent, but Genoa to Rome is 524 km,
> >which is close. If you had to make that trip tomorrow, with a standard
> >ticket, you could get an IC train that would get you there in about 5
> >hours (some under, some over) for 34 euros. That's only a little more
> >than your super discounted fare. You could travel cheaper on
> >interregional trains. However, there are also "libertà di viaggiare"
> >(freedom of travel) fares. These can be as low as 15 euros for IC
> >trains. There is a similar promotion for EC trains; I forget what it's
> >called. You have to get these in advance, and they are not available
> >on every line nor at all times.
>
> Alan Harrison pointed out in another subthread that I was comparing
> single Italian fares with return British fares. However, the 15 euro
> bargain fare still compares pretty well with the British fare.
Indeed it does, but I was simply pointing out that despite UK train
fares being very high, it's often possible to get bargains. Most of my
train journeys between Manchester and London tend to be fairly cheap,
but Alan's point about high walk-up fares, particularly on less direct
routes, is well made. A leisure visitor to the UK, for example, wouldn't
normally _need_ to travel on peak trains, so can benefit from lower
fares, and often less crowded trains.
ALAN HARRISON
"Giovanni Drogo" <dr...@rn.bastiani.ta.invalid> wrote in message
news:Pine.LNX.4.61.06...@cbfrvqba.ynzoengr.vans.vg...
> Are these horror stories (about British railways) true ?
Yes. They're a pretty constant theme in British newspapers' consumer
columns. Part of the problem is that train operating companies are actively
encouraging there staff to prioritise revenue protection over customer
relations. Hence the demands for full fares (NOT just the difference) from
people who have inadvertently boarded an earlier, but late-running, train.
Alan Harrison
Dave Frightens Me
<dr...@rn.bastiani.ta.invalid> wrote:
>My only experience with private companies was when several years ago I
>had to go to Grasse from Cannes (by bus). I exited Cannes rail station,
>and went to a counter selling bus ticket. I was sold a ticket, but then
>when the bus came, it was not valid because it was another company, and
>I had to wait.
>
>This sort of things is why I look with fear to talks of liberalization /
>privatization of public transport here in Italy.
You have every reason to be fearful. Privatisation of trains never
results in better service, only more expensive tickets. It's a
political means of getting the public to pay for something again that
they have already paid for with their taxes.
The Reid
<padr...@MUNGEDiol.ie> wrote:
>Rupert Murdoch (who has the sense of identity of a chameleon) has
>spent years trying to convince the British people otherwise.
when he's not choosing which party will be elected :-(
--
Mike Reid
Walk-eat-photos UK "http://www.fellwalk.co.uk" <-- you can email us@ this site
Walk-eat-photos Spain "http://www.fell-walker.co.uk"
Beginners UK flight sim addons "http://www.lawn-mower-man.co.uk"
The Reid
this_address...@yahoo.co.uk (David Horne, _the_ chancellor of
the royal duchy of city south and deansgate) wrote:
>> Am I alone in not much caring?
>
>You're probably not alone, but other people do care. Manchester
>Piccadilly must have half a dozen outlets serving espresso, and at 8am
>this morning, there were long lines at all of them. Many of the people
>on my train this morning took coffee on with them.
one day every shop will be a coffee outlet.
It seems to be a feature of modern office life that you walk in with a
coffee and the rest of the time you have a bottle of water in your
hand. I used to use a kettle and a tap, a lot cheaper.
The Reid
<deepfreudmoors@eITmISaACTUALLYiREAL!l.nu> wrote:
>>Some things are indistinguishable to some people but not to others.
>Very diplomatic! ;o)
thus avoiding my:-
"<space left for some condescending tosser to ponificate>
(comment should begin "the discerning realise...." "dont you know..."
or similar)."
premptive defence
>It's true though, I can't distinguish a good espresso from an ok one,
>and Italians can't tell an awful beer from an excellent one - no
>matter what they say!
like I can tell if bitter is in good condition or not while non bitter
drinkers can't, but I can't name beers from blind tasting as most
can't. If served at identical temperatures, glasses etc, many struggle
with distinquishing brandy and whisky, guiness and bitter, one lager
from another, meanwhile they have strong preferences on brands!
The Reid
this_address...@yahoo.co.uk (David Horne, _the_ chancellor of
the royal duchy of city south and deansgate) wrote:
>> Most motorbikes are actually scooters in Italy, and they make little
>> noise, except (ironically) for the low powered 50cc ones.
>
>Little noise might be relative then, because I find them annoying.
noise irritation is largely subjective.
compare sleeping next to a snorer or the sound of the sea.
compare your own hifi to a neighbours.
the bloke now fitting a window next door to some yob making a row for
the sake of it.
A composer at a piano next door.....lets not go there :-)
You are irritated by road vehicles but never say a word (and therefore
I assume are not irritated) about trains and planes because you dont
disaprove of them.
The Reid
>However, they are always souped up to be loud and fast.
or loud and slow, they just knock out the baffles dont they?
The Reid
>You can get a decent cup of tea with a good tea bag, but no tea bag
>uses the best qualities of tea. They usually have an awful lot of
>powdery pulverized tea and very few tips. However, a lot of loose tea
>is also inferior.
It may well be that Waitrose teabags are superior to others. Both teas
come in an almost identical box labelled "Kenya"* with "bags" or
"loose" added. I will have to open one.
*theres a range of sources
>The best tea bags don't measure up with the best
>loose teas, because the better teas aren't used to make tea bags. I
>recently read that this is starting to change, but I haven't seen any
>estate tea bags yet.
I'll look, but single country is better than nothing!
>>I think , as with wine, a load of old bollocks gets talked about
>>drinks for some reason. I find much more difference between frozen NZ
>>lamb and Herdwicke mutton, (for instance) than two indistinquishable
>>wines or beers.
>
>Some things are indistinguishable to some people but not to others.
true, grasshopper.
David Horne, _the_ chancellor of the royal duchy of city south and deansgate
> On Wed, 22 Nov 2006 17:48:06 +0000,
> this_address...@yahoo.co.uk (David Horne, _the_ chancellor of
> the royal duchy of city south and deansgate) wrote:
>
> >> Most motorbikes are actually scooters in Italy, and they make little
> >> noise, except (ironically) for the low powered 50cc ones.
> >
> >Little noise might be relative then, because I find them annoying.
>
> noise irritation is largely subjective.
>
> compare sleeping next to a snorer or the sound of the sea.
>
> compare your own hifi to a neighbours.
>
> the bloke now fitting a window next door to some yob making a row for
> the sake of it.
>
> A composer at a piano next door.....lets not go there :-)
>
> You are irritated by road vehicles but never say a word (and therefore
> I assume are not irritated) about trains and planes because you dont
> disaprove of them.
Actually, the main reason is that they're not very noticeable to me. If
I listen in my study, I can hear the sound of traffic. I can't hear the
trains, despite being close to train lines, and hardly ever hear planes.
I get very irritated by helicopters which I hear very occasionally. So
no, it's not the mode of transport. It's the noise.
Ulf Kutzner
> But you can usually walk through if you need to. That said, some high
> speed trains that run in pairs (e.g. double Virgin Voyagers in the
> UK,double ICE3s
or ICE2 or even IC with cab car in the middle
> in Germany) are made of two units that you can't.
Regards, ULF
Ulf Kutzner
> I will be travelling by train next week from Rome to Naples, to
> Florence, then back to Rome. This will be my first experience with
> trains. I have reserved my seats on each train (ticketless option).
> The first is an IC Plus train (first class). The other two are second
> class on the Eurostar.
>
> I have posted previously in this group and gotten many good responses.
> I just have one additional question. For the first leg of my trip, it
> says our assigned seats are "Coach 2: 53 -, 54".
>
> Correct me if I am wrong, but I take this to mean I need to board the
> second train car from the front and look for seats 53 and 54.
Yes. I might find morte details with the train number.
Regards, ULF
Ulf Kutzner
> On 19 Nov 2006 09:08:46 -0800, "Dan" <dan_h...@hailmail.net>
> wrote:
>
>
>>All,
>>
>>I will be travelling by train next week from Rome to Naples, to
>>Florence, then back to Rome. This will be my first experience with
>>trains. I have reserved my seats on each train (ticketless option).
>>The first is an IC Plus train (first class). The other two are second
>>class on the Eurostar.
>
>
> Be careful with your terminology. "Reservation" does not mean a
> ticket like it does for an airline. In general, the ticket
I understand that an e-ticket has been booked.
> is
> your fare, and the reservation, which is not always necessary,
> reserves you a specific seat. And on some local trains there are
> no seat reservations. Seat reservations cost a few bucks.
>
> The exception is certain special trains, including the Eurostar
> (channel tunnel), which combine the seat reservation and ticket
> together like most airlines (of course, these days some airlines
> don't reserve you a specific seat at all).
Italian long-distance trains combine as well.
Regards, ULF
Ulf Kutzner
>>I've had some really awful cold Nescafé stuff on Italian trains. On
>>the other hand, when I lived in the Netherlands (20 years ago now)
>>they also served a decent filtered coffee. Maybe that's changed like
>>so many other things.
>
>
> Yep. No on-train catering in .nl any more, except a miserly trolley
> service on the Internationale Treinen to Brussels, and the Thalys
> buffet.
Add ICE3 services to Cologne/Frankfurt and maybe Berlin IC services.
Regards, ULF
Dave Frightens Me
wrote:
>On Wed, 22 Nov 2006 23:47:43 +0100, Dave Frightens Me
><deepfreudmoors@eITmISaACTUALLYiREAL!l.nu> wrote:
>>It's true though, I can't distinguish a good espresso from an ok one,
>>and Italians can't tell an awful beer from an excellent one - no
>>matter what they say!
>
>like I can tell if bitter is in good condition or not while non bitter
>drinkers can't, but I can't name beers from blind tasting as most
>can't. If served at identical temperatures, glasses etc, many struggle
>with distinquishing brandy and whisky, guiness and bitter, one lager
>from another, meanwhile they have strong preferences on brands!
I most definitely could tell an Italian/Spanish/American beer from a
German/Czech/Danish one.
Dave Frightens Me
wrote:
>On Wed, 22 Nov 2006 17:48:06 +0000,
>this_address...@yahoo.co.uk (David Horne, _the_ chancellor of
>the royal duchy of city south and deansgate) wrote:
>
>>> Am I alone in not much caring?
>>
>>You're probably not alone, but other people do care. Manchester
>>Piccadilly must have half a dozen outlets serving espresso, and at 8am
>>this morning, there were long lines at all of them. Many of the people
>>on my train this morning took coffee on with them.
>
>one day every shop will be a coffee outlet.
>
>It seems to be a feature of modern office life that you walk in with a
>coffee and the rest of the time you have a bottle of water in your
>hand. I used to use a kettle and a tap, a lot cheaper.
That London tap water is pretty horrid stuff though. I've had worse
(Adelaide), but it's still quite nasty.
Dave Frightens Me
this_address...@yahoo.co.uk (David Horne, _the_ chancellor of
the royal duchy of city south and deansgate) wrote:
>The Reid <don...@fellwalk.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> On Wed, 22 Nov 2006 17:48:06 +0000,
>> this_address...@yahoo.co.uk (David Horne, _the_ chancellor of
>> the royal duchy of city south and deansgate) wrote:
>>
>> >> Most motorbikes are actually scooters in Italy, and they make little
>> >> noise, except (ironically) for the low powered 50cc ones.
>> >
>> >Little noise might be relative then, because I find them annoying.
>>
>> noise irritation is largely subjective.
>>
>> compare sleeping next to a snorer or the sound of the sea.
>>
>> compare your own hifi to a neighbours.
>>
>> the bloke now fitting a window next door to some yob making a row for
>> the sake of it.
>>
>> A composer at a piano next door.....lets not go there :-)
>>
>> You are irritated by road vehicles but never say a word (and therefore
>> I assume are not irritated) about trains and planes because you dont
>> disaprove of them.
>
>Actually, the main reason is that they're not very noticeable to me. If
>I listen in my study, I can hear the sound of traffic. I can't hear the
>trains, despite being close to train lines, and hardly ever hear planes.
>I get very irritated by helicopters which I hear very occasionally. So
>no, it's not the mode of transport. It's the noise.
I live right near a busy road, a busy rail line, and a church. The
occasional church bells fucking piss me off, whilst the rest I don't
even notice anymore.
Dave Frightens Me
wrote:
>On Wed, 22 Nov 2006 21:09:50 +0100, B Vaughan<m...@privacy.net> wrote:
>
>>However, they are always souped up to be loud and fast.
>
>or loud and slow, they just knock out the baffles dont they?
No, they modify the engine so it overworks. The muffler is not
designed to handle this, and the result is noise.
The Reid
this_address...@yahoo.co.uk (David Horne, _the_ chancellor of
the royal duchy of city south and deansgate) wrote:
>Actually, the main reason is that they're not very noticeable to me. If
>I listen in my study, I can hear the sound of traffic. I can't hear the
>trains, despite being close to train lines, and hardly ever hear planes.
>I get very irritated by helicopters which I hear very occasionally. So
>no, it's not the mode of transport. It's the noise.
city airport planes are the noisiest thing here. The road is just
outside the door but I don't hear cars, I don't hear them in the back
garden either. Just planes and the odd yob on a trials bike.
--
Mike Reid
UK Walking - photos "http://www.fellwalk.co.uk" <-- you can email us@ this site
Spain Walking -food "http://www.fell-walker.co.uk"
David Horne, _the_ chancellor of the royal duchy of city south and deansgate
> On Thu, 23 Nov 2006 14:59:30 +0000,
> this_address...@yahoo.co.uk (David Horne, _the_ chancellor of
> the royal duchy of city south and deansgate) wrote:
>
> >Actually, the main reason is that they're not very noticeable to me. If
> >I listen in my study, I can hear the sound of traffic. I can't hear the
> >trains, despite being close to train lines, and hardly ever hear planes.
> >I get very irritated by helicopters which I hear very occasionally. So
> >no, it's not the mode of transport. It's the noise.
>
> city airport planes are the noisiest thing here.
Most people in the country can't hear planes where they live, but cars
are everywhere. If I lived next to a high speed train line, I can't say
I'd like that either.
The Reid
<deepfreudmoors@eITmISaACTUALLYiREAL!l.nu> wrote:
>That London tap water is pretty horrid stuff though. I've had worse
>(Adelaide), but it's still quite nasty.
Is it? Mine isn't. I've had horrible tap water, but not here. Tastes
much the same as a lot of still bottled water, its hard after all. And
healthy.
--
Mike Reid
UK Walking - photos "http://www.fellwalk.co.uk" <-- you can email us@ this site
Spain Walking -food "http://www.fell-walker.co.uk"
The Reid
<deepfreudmoors@eITmISaACTUALLYiREAL!l.nu> wrote:
>>like I can tell if bitter is in good condition or not while non bitter
>>drinkers can't, but I can't name beers from blind tasting as most
>>can't. If served at identical temperatures, glasses etc, many struggle
>>with distinquishing brandy and whisky, guiness and bitter, one lager
>>from another, meanwhile they have strong preferences on brands!
>
>I most definitely could tell an Italian/Spanish/American beer from a
>German/Czech/Danish one.
then you are probably an exception. You of course don't actually know
till you do a blind tasting.
In general people have a vastly inflated idea of what they can
distinguish. I was surprised that I put a range of sparkling wines
into roughly price order (and disappointed, the idea was to find
bargains). some people cant even correctly identify meats and
vegetables, funnily enough they are also (IME) the same people with
strong food dislikes.
--
Mike Reid
UK Walking - photos "http://www.fellwalk.co.uk" <-- you can email us@ this site
Spain Walking -food "http://www.fell-walker.co.uk"
The Reid
<deepfreudmoors@eITmISaACTUALLYiREAL!l.nu> wrote:
>>or loud and slow, they just knock out the baffles dont they?
>
>No, they modify the engine so it overworks. The muffler is not
>designed to handle this, and the result is noise.
>--
they modify the engine *before* they knock out the baffles? That's not
what happens here.
--
Mike Reid
UK Walking - photos "http://www.fellwalk.co.uk" <-- you can email us@ this site
Spain Walking -food "http://www.fell-walker.co.uk"
David Horne, _the_ chancellor of the royal duchy of city south and deansgate
> On Fri, 24 Nov 2006 00:04:09 +0100, Dave Frightens Me
> <deepfreudmoors@eITmISaACTUALLYiREAL!l.nu> wrote:
>
> >>like I can tell if bitter is in good condition or not while non bitter
> >>drinkers can't, but I can't name beers from blind tasting as most
> >>can't. If served at identical temperatures, glasses etc, many struggle
> >>with distinquishing brandy and whisky, guiness and bitter, one lager
> >>from another, meanwhile they have strong preferences on brands!
> >
> >I most definitely could tell an Italian/Spanish/American beer from a
> >German/Czech/Danish one.
>
> then you are probably an exception. You of course don't actually know
> till you do a blind tasting.
I would be interested to know if anyone could, for example, accurately
place a US 'UFO' in a blind taste- I think it's brewed by Harpoon, but
forget.
David Horne, _the_ chancellor of the royal duchy of city south and deansgate
> On Fri, 24 Nov 2006 00:05:55 +0100, Dave Frightens Me
> <deepfreudmoors@eITmISaACTUALLYiREAL!l.nu> wrote:
>
> >That London tap water is pretty horrid stuff though. I've had worse
> >(Adelaide), but it's still quite nasty.
>
> Is it? Mine isn't. I've had horrible tap water, but not here. Tastes
> much the same as a lot of still bottled water, its hard after all. And
> healthy.
Mine was fine in Balham. The calcium build up in kettles etc. was a bit
annoying though. I think it can vary in London though.