[Figure] Formal inline figure-skating?
Robert Withrow
serious inline figure skating in the U.S. Is there any sanctioning
organization? Any competitions? Any training programs?
Also, where best should this be discussed? In the inline group
or the figure group or the misc group?
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Robert Withrow, Tel: +1 617 598 4480, Fax: +1 617 598 4430 Net: wi...@rwwa.COM
R.W. Withrow Associates, 319 Lynnway Suite 201, Lynn MA 01901 USA
Louis Epstein
: I am interrested to know if there is any organized, formal, or
: serious inline figure skating in the U.S. Is there any sanctioning
: organization? Any competitions? Any training programs?
So far as I know,the formal "artistic roller" competition that there is
(there are both figure and free-skating events) is done on quads,not
inlines.There are regional and national events as well as local,but
there is no level like [ice] figure skating's sectionals.
: Also, where best should this be discussed? In the inline group
: or the figure group or the misc group?
I don't know,but I'm adding the roller group so they can get in touch
with you(I read this on the figure group,which you left off the followup
line).
GRamsey887
>I am interrested to know if there is any organized, formal, or
>serious inline figure skating in the U.S. Is there any sanctioning
>organization? Any competitions? Any training programs?
>Also, where best should this be discussed? In the inline group
>or the figure group or the misc group?
I don't know about any programs designed only for inlines, but you are
allowed to use inlines in the USAC artistic programs. There's a lot of
experimenting and a few skaters have even competed on inlines.
gcha...@gate.net
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>From: lep...@j51.com (Louis Epstein)
>Newsgroups: rec.sport.skating.inline,rec.sport.skating.roller
>Subject: Re: [Figure] Formal inline figure-skating?
>Date: 17 Jun 1995 23:21:53 GMT
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>Robert Withrow (wi...@rwwa.com) wrote:
>: I am interrested to know if there is any organized, formal, or
>: serious inline figure skating in the U.S. Is there any sanctioning
>: organization? Any competitions? Any training programs?
There was a mens JO - I forget the class- skating freestyle on inlines,
competing with the regular Quad skates at the South East Regionals held in
Pensicola FL last week. His routine was quite smooth, and he seemed to jump
as easily as quads, the spins were clumsy- he had a toe stop on and seemed to
spin on the toe stop. I don't think he placed for nationals, but it did get a
lot of attention
Wendi Dunlap
> There was a mens JO - I forget the class- skating freestyle on inlines,
> competing with the regular Quad skates at the South East Regionals held in
> Pensicola FL last week. His routine was quite smooth, and he seemed to jump
> as easily as quads, the spins were clumsy- he had a toe stop on and
seemed to
> spin on the toe stop. I don't think he placed for nationals, but it did
get a
> lot of attention
Wow. I wish I could have seen it!
I hope someone will post updates about the regional competitions here for
those of us who can't attend. <sigh>
+-- Wendi Dunlap ---------------------------------------------------+
| Seattle, WA, USA * "Merito" * http://www.seanet.com/litlnemo/ |
| Slumberland BBS: 206.547.2629 * litl...@slumberland.com |
+-------------------------------------------------------------------+
Kai Schulte
: There was a mens JO - I forget the class- skating freestyle on inlines,
: competing with the regular Quad skates at the South East Regionals held in
: Pensicola FL last week. His routine was quite smooth, and he seemed to jump
: as easily as quads, the spins were clumsy- he had a toe stop on and seemed to
: spin on the toe stop. I don't think he placed for nationals, but it did get a
: lot of attention
This really sounds interesting. I'm amazed that the skating association has
not made any rules against mixed competitions like this, but it sounds good.
I have no idea, though, how you would do a FO spin or any kind of heel spin
on inlines.
Oh yes, and how about figures? Did he do them on regular skates?
I'd hate to even think of having to skate loops on inlines...
Please tell us more...
Kai
BLPiazza
writes
> There was a mens JO - I forget the class- skating freestyle on inlines,
> competing with the regular Quad skates at the South East Regionals held
It was actually Southern Regional in Pensacola. If you want more
information about the skater, try e-mailing his coach, Kathy, at
Kat...@aol.com
Barry Piazza
George Robbins
> gcha...@gate.net wrote:
>
> : There was a mens JO - I forget the class- skating freestyle on inlines,
> : to jump as easily as quads, the spins were clumsy- he had a toe stop on
> : and seemed to spin on the toe stop. I don't think he placed for nationals,
> : but it did get a lot of attention
>
> This really sounds interesting. I'm amazed that the skating association has
> not made any rules against mixed competitions like this, but it sounds good.
I think the same group of decisions, both international and USAC that allowed
in-line skates in the speed skating area also allowed them in the figure/
freestyle area, but it's been a moot point to date.
I don't see any separate competions unless something happens such that
the in-line skaters are either blowing away the quads (as happened in
the speed area) or they're a big enough minority to demand their own
event where they'll be competitive among themselves.
> I have no idea, though, how you would do a FO spin or any kind of heel spin
> on inlines.
In a proper ice spin, the blade descibes a small circle, not spinning on a
single point of the blade. In-lines should be capable of this, assuming
that the end-wheel locations and boot design allow an effective balance
on one wheel.
> Oh yes, and how about figures? Did he do them on regular skates?
> I'd hate to even think of having to skate loops on inlines...
Loops could be hard - normal figures and turns are doable.
Things seem to be progressing in the in-line "figure" area. Snyder,
one of the top US brands, is said to be working on an in-line frame
to be mounted on a conventional boot. Rainbo Sports in Chicago is
already selling a 4-wheel aluminum frame with integrated toe-stop
for mounting on conventional boots. A skater at one of the rinks I
skate at showed up with these and seems to be working on figure and
freestyle moves. The frame looks pretty nice and the guys obviously
having fun with it, even if he's not doing anything really exciting.
I think this person was previously skating on conventional in-lines,
but I'm not sure it's the same guy.
Some "disco" skaters, who don't (all) use to stops anyway have been
experiementing with hockey in-line frames on regular or lightweight
plastic boots. Again, not taking over the world, but if you see a
few people doing things on these equivalent to quads, you'll see
some in-line skaters switching, and if they're doing things that
"can't" be done on quads you'll more quad skaters switch.
I'm not too worried about it, as long as I'm having fun on whichever
wheels I'm using...
--
George Robbins - not working for, work: to be avoided at all costs...
but still emotionally attached to: uucp: ...!uunet!tharsis.com!grr
Commodore, Engineering Department domain: g...@tharsis.com
GopherSprt
wondering -- do you live in the Chicago area? I'll be there in a few
weeks, mostly for a show, but coming a few days early so I can skate at
some of those great Chicago rinks.
Rhonda
Kai Schulte
: In a proper ice spin, the blade descibes a small circle, not spinning on a
: single point of the blade. In-lines should be capable of this, assuming
: that the end-wheel locations and boot design allow an effective balance
: on one wheel.
Yes, this is true if you _can_ balance on a single wheel, but doing so for
extended periods of time is almost world class stuff. The problem I have
with inlines is that it is pretty hard to spin in a slightly larger circle
so that remaining (at least partially) on two wheels will not create too much
friction. The same would be true for inlines with toe stops - on the ice,
your toe pick is usually shaving lightly while you are spinning which is
one of the main reasons why spins on ice don't just last longer but are
easier to beging with.
It is definitely possible to spin 'endlessly' on inlines, too, but I have
the feeling that the skill level for things to start moving is much higher.
: I'm not too worried about it, as long as I'm having fun on whichever
: wheels I'm using...
I'm definitely not worried :) it will probably encourage further
development. Maybe sometime soon we will see inlines with frames that 'bend'
in order to be able to do quad-style edges, although I'm still at a loss on
how to implement the lever-type action needed because they would have to
move opposite to the pressure you exert...
Kai
albert boulanger
Chicago currently is a shrunken version of what it was. On thing about
Rainbo is to make sure you go on the night that you would be
comfortable with the crowd. They have gay nights at times.
Regards,
Albert Boulanger
(Not a Chicago resident -- ex Illini)
GopherSprt
(albert boulanger) writes:Chicago currently is a shrunken version of what
it was. On thing about
Rainbo is to make sure you go on the night that you would be
comfortable with the crowd. They have gay nights at times.
Regards,
Albert Boulanger
(Not a Chicago resident -- ex Illini)
___
Thanks Albert. I wasn't intending on skating at Rainbo. I visited their
pro shop once and looked around inside, but that's not the atmosphere I'm
looking for. Rinks on my agenda for my trip are: Aurora, North Avenue,
Coachlite (Roselle), and Lombard. Aurora is my favorite. Haven't been to
Lombard before. Dance sessions are unheard of here in Minneapolis, so I
get to as many in as possible in Chicago. Also want to go to Coachlite as
we go to their meet every year, and I'd like to get on that floor more
frequently so it's not such an adjustment at the meet.
Rhonda (GopherSprt)
wi...@spooky.rwwa.com
>
>George Robbins (g...@tharsis.com) wrote:
>
>: In a proper ice spin, the blade descibes a small circle, not spinning on a
>: single point of the blade. In-lines should be capable of this, assuming
>: that the end-wheel locations and boot design allow an effective balance
>: on one wheel.
>
>Yes, this is true if you _can_ balance on a single wheel, but doing so for
>extended periods of time is almost world class stuff. The problem I have
>with inlines is that it is pretty hard to spin in a slightly larger circle
>so that remaining (at least partially) on two wheels will not create too much
>friction. The same would be true for inlines with toe stops - on the ice,
>your toe pick is usually shaving lightly while you are spinning which is
>one of the main reasons why spins on ice don't just last longer but are
>easier to beging with.
I have been experimenting a little with this. [The reason I started
this thread is that I had the theory that the inline-style skate would
offer a better simulation of a freestyle skate than a quad-style
skate does...] The standard quad skate is a pretty poor simulation
of a freestyle blade/skate, but ...
First, I tried adding the toe stops to a standard
(Rollerblade-Macroblade) skate. This is not a good simulation,
because the stop is both way to far forward and too high.
I also tried replacing the front wheel with a 64 mm one (instead
of 76) to simulate the spinning area of a freestyle blade. This
seems to improve the simulation some, but the stop still doesn't
act like a pick (too far forward and high). This combined
with normal rockering seems to duplicate the feel of a freestyle
blade.
I am trying to *replace* the front wheel with a brake of some kind.
(I may just use a jammed wheel). This would place the pick-like
element in the right place, but I don't know about wear and friction.
Perhaps a different material?
My guess is that a modified inline frame with variable spacing, so
that rearmost wheel is farther back than in normal skates, normal
rockering, and a brake instead of the front wheel would work well.
Especially if mounted on a freestyle boot. The key seems to be
creating a balance point under the ball of the foot, with a
flat area in the back...
Regarding spinning: A good front-upright spin is something that
takes years to perfect on ice skates, but it is not a world-class
thing. You can't expect to master it over a weekend.
George Robbins
Duncan Savage was pursuing quite similar ideas a few months back,
though I don't know what conclusions he's come to in the interiem.
Try dun...@atri.curtin.edu.au or maybe sav...@csu.murdoch.edu.au .
To a degree I think this may become a moot point as quality in-line
"figure" frames become available. When I manage to find my Rainbo
Sport catalog with the insert advertising the frame they're selling
I'll post some more info on that.
Some thought's I've had on the matter (and a few real 3-rd person
observations) suggest that you want to start with a short-wheelbase
aluminium "hockey" frame mounted on a conventional skating boot.
The better frames like the LeBeda are impressively light and have
more or less conventional boot mounting plates, unlike the point
mounts on racing frames.
I think you want to mount the frame a little further back on the
boot than normal, such that the 2'nd wheel is almost under the
balance point at the ball of your foot. This because you want to
live on the 2'nd and 3'd wheels. Only a little pressure should
be needed to modulate the balance between the two wheels, a little
to the rear and both should be firmly on the ground for "back of
blade" edge stability, neutral should have 80% or so of your weight
on the 2'nd wheel with the 3'rd preventing arbitrary pivoting, and
a little further forward shift lets you pivot or spin on the 2'nd
wheel. From there, it should take quite a deliberate tilt or shift
to bring the toe wheel/stop into play - same risks and benefits as
having a big toe-pick close to the ice, really.
Obviously, I'm suggesting that the toe-wheel be more "rockered" than
the normal adjustments provide, but perhaps not as much as your
"small wheel" model. Perhaps this is a smaller wheel moved in and
down to put the "pick" where you expect it. The rear wheel is of
little consequence except for backwards 3's so it should probably
be rockered just enough to keep it off the ground, but still allow
a "save" if you accidentally starting going backwards off the 3'rd
wheel.
Now you have a choice as to whether the toe wheel is a wheel or
a stop. Note that I'm suggesting that you spin on the 2'nd wheel,
not the toe, so you don't need it to turn for that. While most
all jumps take-off pick-last and land pick-first, it seems that
only toe-assisted jumps takeoffs - lutz, flip, etc. really demand
a hard "stop".
If you want the stop, proably fixing a wheel is one of the better
ways - it's simple and cheap. You could take the approach of drilling
3 or 4 axle sized holes in the hub area of a "solid hub" wheel and
use a through bolt - perhaps this bolt could use the original axle
hole, and the center the new, relocated axle hole. Obviously more
holes weaken the hub, but let you get more use out of the wheel.
Another possibility would be to use large steel or aluminum washers
between the hub/wheel and the frame to jam the wheel. Bending over
an edge of the washer would prevent it rotating againt the frame
and tighting the axle boot would control the pressure and the amount
of force required for the wheel to turn, if a complete lock-up doesn't
seem desirable.
You could also have a piece machined to mount in place of the front
wheel that would bolt into the axle hole and provide a mounting for
a standard threaded-post style roller skate stop. Obviously, getting
parts machined is expensive, but this would also let you get the stop
off center of the wheel-frame. I observe the roller skates have the
stops to the inside of the centerline, but don't know how much that
matters. Jennifer (sorry, don't have the e-mail reference) apparently
took this approach, but I don't know the exact details.
Shooshie
figure skates, and some ideas occurred to me. At first I was thinking of a
small front wheel with spring-loaded tension - resistance - built into it,
so that it still coasted a bit, but could also give some resistance for a
jump. Then I thought of Roces' "Dual Taratuga Braking System" which is
spring-loaded and depends on sudden and heavy pressure applied to the back
wheel to engage the braking pads on the rear two wheels.
A similar feature could be built into the toe wheel so that it functions
as a wheel during normal skating, but when suddenly loaded as in a jump,
it would function as a brake - or toe stop. This may be the perfect design
for a figure-skating inline boot. I've played through it a few times in my
head and can't see any real problems with it. Just as a figure skater
never "skates" on the toes, neither would an inline skater need a wheel to
roll when on the toe.
What remains would be to determine the proper angle for the load. If the
skate is flat on four wheels, then it need not be possible to engage the
toe-wheel brake. Tilted up at a certain angle and loaded, it should engage
easily and suddenly. Since certain inline tricks require rolling on a toe,
perhaps a 90 degree load (frame 90 degrees to the ground) should also
bypass the braking system to allow for these kinds of tricks.
On the other hand, it may not be necessary to worry about the angle. If it
requires more load to engage the brake than would be applied in the toe
skating tricks, then the angle of engagement is moot. I suspect that it
will require some consideration, though.
Can anyone else see potential in this design? I think it's time to
approach a manufacturer. Hmmm... yeah, right... tell 'em it's for that
huge inline figure-skating market. Call 'em "FigureBlades." Well, someone
made the Kristi Yamaguchi skate, so you never know.
Shooshie
SeismicSK8
rest of us!
Dan Gesmer
Seismic Skate Systems, Inc.
(skate equipment engineering firm)
Kai Schulte
> The key seems to be
> creating a balance point under the ball of the foot, with a
> flat area in the back...
Yes, but that is not all you need in order to emulate an ice rocker.
On the ice, you can rock forward, gradually losing guidance, whereas
the problem with wheels is that you will be going from one wheel which
gives you relative freedom to a position with two of them on the ground,
then up on to the next one, and so on.
George Robbins:
: When I manage to find my Rainbo
: Sport catalog with the insert advertising the frame they're selling
: I'll post some more info on that.
This will be the least of the problems, no doubt. I bet they'll have
frames that look pretty much like a metal blade and probably even silver
wheels soon ;)
: From there, it should take quite a deliberate tilt or shift
: to bring the toe wheel/stop into play - same risks and benefits as
: having a big toe-pick close to the ice, really.
It would definitely have to. The reason you can apply a toe pick nicely
and smoothly is that even close to the front, the rocker radius is somewhere
on the scale of the distance between blade and center of mass (i.e. about
the length of your legs).
: While most
: all jumps take-off pick-last and land pick-first, it seems that
: only toe-assisted jumps takeoffs - lutz, flip, etc. really demand
: a hard "stop".
I would try to design a front wheel that is not entirely blocked (maybe
mounted with springs so that it can be gradually pushed into some damping
material as you apply more pressure) and some kind of dome-shaped covering
pad in front of it to act as 'hard' toe stop for jumps.
_Wow_ I can actually imagine spinning on that :)
The entry would be very controlled...
On quads, it is indeed nicer to have the toe stop slightly inside the
center line, but that is mainly because you often spot with your foot
turned out (especially on the toe loop) and the front inside wheel won't
be in the way. I've seen toe stops adjusted in various ways, though, so
partly it seems to be individual preference...
This would not be of any more importance on inlines, of course,
than it is on ice blades.
Well, by now I am convinced that it is definitely possible to build good
inline figure skates, but they will not _really_ feel like a rocker.
Imagine a backward 3-turn: on quads you have most of your weight on
the back truck, on the ice you just shift back a tiny bit (you don't want
to disrupt the flow but you also want to remain on the part of the blade
which allows you to pivot), on rockered inlines you would probably shift
backward by one wheel-distance.
I still have no idea how to skate good loops on them. This is where you
absolutely need the gradual transitions.
...here I go again, with more foolish thoughts about catapillar-style
wheelbases and cantilever frames and ......... ok, I won't elaborate :)
Kai, who loves the feeling of just pushing onto an edge and having it do
the turning all by itself ;)
Kai Schulte
: Regarding spinning: A good front-upright spin is something that
: takes years to perfect on ice skates, but it is not a world-class
: thing.
Yes, on quads you really have to learn exactly where to keep your weight
centered in order to be able to spin. On the ice, you just start spinning
and take your time to find the point. Perfecting it will still take a lot
of time, but I would say a really good 2-wheel spin entered at fair speed
and completely without using the toe stop at any time is something in a
class by itself. Even world class skaters crash regularly on their heel
camels, and doing a genuine single-wheel spin on inlines will not be easier.
> You can't expect to master it over a weekend.
:) :) :)
Kai
Shooshie
(Kai Schulte) wrote:
|> I would try to design a front wheel that is not entirely blocked (maybe
|> mounted with springs so that it can be gradually pushed into some damping
|> material as you apply more pressure) and some kind of dome-shaped covering
|> pad in front of it to act as 'hard' toe stop for jumps.
|> _Wow_ I can actually imagine spinning on that :)
I just posted a similar idea last night. I think it's very practical and
possible!
|>
|> Well, by now I am convinced that it is definitely possible to build good
|> inline figure skates, but they will not _really_ feel like a rocker.
|> Imagine a backward 3-turn: on quads you have most of your weight on
|> the back truck, on the ice you just shift back a tiny bit (you don't want
|> to disrupt the flow but you also want to remain on the part of the blade
|> which allows you to pivot), on rockered inlines you would probably shift
|> backward by one wheel-distance.
I have not measured it, Kai, but it feels like a further distance than
that on inlines. It is certainly the reason it took me so long to get
3-turns "happening." On the other hand, I've not been using real rockering
lately. I've just been putting the smaller, more worn wheels on the ends,
and this is not much of a rocker. I'll have to go back to rockering and
see if it decreases the shift by allowing me to pivot on the next to last
wheel.
Shooshie
Jennifer Kretschmer
a few times, I guess I'll explain what I did to make a pair of inline
figure skates. I call my skates the "Hybrid" or affectionately "the
mutt" since I used parts and my knowledge of ice, roller, and inline
skating. First, I took a pair of my old ice skates and ripped the blade
off of the leather Harlick brand boot. I bought a Suregrip H-100 inline
hockey frame and LaBeda wheels with Killer Bee bearings. The toe stop
attachment was sawed off a pair of old roller skates, and I chose a
Snyder toe stop (small one about 1 1/4" diameter). Because of the size
of my foot, I had to go with a three wheeled skate, but this has proven
to be better for the jumps for me than the four wheeled kind. The toe
stop attachment allows me to replace a toe stop easily when I wear one
down like a regular roller skate. I mounted the blade in the same
position as the ice and roller skates are mounted with the first wheel at
the ball of the foot and the last wheel trailing slightly behind the heel
like an ice blade. The toe stop attachment is mounted with some machine
work to an extention that then mounts to the inline blade. This is hard
to explain the process, but the results are fantastic!
With the leather boot, the whole skate seems lighter and definitly fits
better to my foot for more precision skating. You name any single figure
skating jump, and I can do it on these skates (except an axel, I'm
chickening out). I've been trying double jumps too, and can get the
height necessary whith these toe stops. You have to teach yourself to
land the jumps flat though instead of toe to heel, because the toe stop
stops you dead in your tracks. I can sort of do one foot back spins, but
forward spins still seem impossible. I don't know if it's the skates, or
my ability. If someone can figure that part out for me and my skates, I
will then have nothing stopping me!
Jennifer
P.S. I don't have a rocker on the skates now, would that help?
George Robbins
>
> Yes, on quads you really have to learn exactly where to keep your weight
> centered in order to be able to spin. On the ice, you just start spinning
> and take your time to find the point. Perfecting it will still take a lot
> of time, but I would say a really good 2-wheel spin entered at fair speed
> and completely without using the toe stop at any time is something in a
> class by itself. Even world class skaters crash regularly on their heel
> camels, and doing a genuine single-wheel spin on inlines will not be easier.
I'm not sure that this follows. Part of the problem with the heel camel
is that the skate truck isn't really designed for this and want to play
gamems. The single toe or heel wheel of an in-line is more like an ice
blade in that's it's constrained to a line or curve along the l. axis
of the skate. If you think in terms of that small circle of a centered
spin on an ice blade, not the rotating on a point that doensn't really
happen, then it should be easier to do a one-foot spin on in-lines.
Assuming that it's difficult, I think part of the problem is the absurd
forward placemnt of the front wheel - it puts too much leverage on the
foot for a natural balance or requries tilting the skate way up and
then the lack of back-flex in the boot interferes. My notion is that
if you were to just take of the toe wheel or replaces it with a small
wheel that's out of the way, doing one foot spins on the second wheel
should be relatively easy.
Jennifer - do you count one-foot spins with the freestyle moves that
you do well on your skates?
Also, going back a message or two. I think you kind of jumped ot the
conclusion that the two-effective wheel skates wouldn't work becuase
you'd either be pivoting on one wheel, or locked in-line by two. I
think the situation is more like roller skates where the amount of
weight you have on the rear wheel controls whether it's locked, will
slide, or swings as you pivot on the front wheels. This is usually
exploited in less-than-perfect 3-turns. The proposed 2-center wheel
skate will actually "slide" easier because the wheels are closer and
there'll be more leverage on them.
An interestng question is whether two wheels at normal in-line spacing
are "too close" - it's certainly going to be twitchy and require some
careful balance, but so do ice blades - it's our roller skates that
are relatively insensitve to fore-aft balance. If more spacing was
needed, there are some good quality "extreme" frames (Rockes, K2)
that have wider spacing between the two center wheels to allow sliding
down rails between the wheels. The limiting example here is the
"bi-skate" a two-wheeled skate, with the wheels at about normal roller
skate distance - I've never tried these, but since they aren't being
tried in competition, I have to assume that they're a failure as far
as our interest here.
albert boulanger
In article <DBBvC...@tigger.jvnc.net> g...@tharsis.com (George
Robbins) writes:
I'm not sure that this follows. Part of the problem with the heel camel
is that the skate truck isn't really designed for this and want to play
gamems. The single toe or heel wheel of an in-line is more like an ice
blade in that's it's constrained to a line or curve along the l. axis
of the skate. If you think in terms of that small circle of a centered
spin on an ice blade, not the rotating on a point that doensn't really
happen, then it should be easier to do a one-foot spin on in-lines.
I do single front (toe) spins on quads. IMHO, the issue that you are
addressing is not due the fact that a single truck is not designed for
the activity but the action of the skate needs to be adjusted -- ie
tighten the truck(s) some more.
Regards,
Albert Boulanger
aboul...@ldeo.columbia.edu
Jennifer Kretschmer
On Fri, 7 Jul 1995, George Robbins wrote:
> Jennifer - do you count one-foot spins with the freestyle moves that
> you do well on your skates?
>
The only type of one foot spin that I can sort of do is a backward one
foot spin. This requires the weight to be on the heel wheel, and spin on
only that wheel. In order to keep my momentum going, I have to do a
"hopping" kind of motion.
On my previous post, I described the design of my skates, and what I can
do. I asked if anyone had advice for me on my skate design for improving
my spins, or if anyone thinks that I just need to keep working on it.
When I try to do forward one foot spins, I find that my wheel tends to
skid. I'm on one front wheel for about one rotation, and then it seems to
catch and I lose it. Do you think that I just need to keep working on
it, or that maybe there is an improvement to the skate I should do.
One last piece of info: I have no problem doing spins on the ice. I can
do one foot backwards and forwards, sit spins, camel spins, flying
camels, jump-sit, and my favorite layback spins. Two-foot spins and a
psydo back one foot spins are all that I have been able to accomplish on
inlines.
Jennifer
Kai Schulte
: I think you kind of jumped ot the
: conclusion that the two-effective wheel skates wouldn't work becuase
: you'd either be pivoting on one wheel, or locked in-line by two. I
: think the situation is more like roller skates where the amount of
: weight you have on the rear wheel controls whether it's locked, will
: slide, or swings as you pivot on the front wheels. This is usually
: exploited in less-than-perfect 3-turns. The proposed 2-center wheel
: skate will actually "slide" easier because the wheels are closer and
: there'll be more leverage on them.
That's right, of course. The trouble I have is that unless I stay confined
to a very small portion of the 'blade' the amount of guidance/pivoting
ability changes rapidly several times. This is very noticeable indeed
when doing double 3's, because the 'ideal' amount of weight shift also
varies with your speed. (On a slower turn you rock more because 'falling'
into the knee bend will not have as much of an effect.)
A 'natural' correction like tilting back just a little bit more may very
well backfire and set you off on a straight line again.
re. wheelbase:
: The limiting example here is the
: "bi-skate" a two-wheeled skate, with the wheels at about normal roller
: skate distance - I've never tried these, but since they aren't being
: tried in competition, I have to assume that they're a failure as far
: as our interest here.
This might also be due to bearing problems. Jumping on 1 or 2 wheels
might be too much for them.
But in addition to that, I think you're right because that would mean a
further loss of continuity.
The consensus between ice and quads is that a gradual shift (in whatever
direction) should produce a gradual change in the way the skate reacts,
even on a larger scale. Maybe not everybody needs this to be happy with
a skate, but I know I do ;)
Kai
Jennifer Kretschmer
Kai Schulte
: The only type of one foot spin that I can sort of do is a backward one
: foot spin. This requires the weight to be on the heel wheel, and spin on
: only that wheel. In order to keep my momentum going, I have to do a
: "hopping" kind of motion.
Yes, that's the normal way to learn a backspin on quads, too. As long
as you are entering it cautiously (vital on quads in the beginning because
you want a stopperless entry if at all possible) you just don't have enough
angular momentum and you 'pull consecutive 3-turns' to improve your feeling
for the outside edge. (I am not very far beyond this point on my quad
backspin, either, so maybe I should take Albert's advice and tighten my
trucks a bit...)
: When I try to do forward one foot spins, I find that my wheel tends to
: skid. I'm on one front wheel for about one rotation, and then it seems to
: catch and I lose it.
Maybe you are moving too far onto the toe stop so that the stop and the
front wheel switch jobs. You would then be pivoting on the stop with the
wheel acting as a scraping guide but since you are not moving in circles
any more you will lose your balance unless the spin is already perfectly
centered by then.
You might use chalk on your toe stop and then examine your tracings to get
a better idea of how far you are moving up onto it. Because you are an
experienced ice skater it probably wouldn't be worth the trouble of
re-learning the right point, so you could probably adjust the first wheel
and try to decrease the distance between it and the toe stop.
You could also try using some harder rubber or plastic which would better
resemble a skidding bottom pick (maybe some of the 'grind plate' experts
could help here?) and a rubber stop for jumping in front of that.
I just had another idea while writing this: I'm not sure how flexible
the wheel you are using is, but is it possible that the torsion acting
on it while you are entering the spin causes it to bend and touch
the frame?
At any rate, keep practising (I suppose in America you say practicing?)
and don't be disappointed if it doesn't work right away. It is a fact that
a spin-proficient roller skater can learn the basic ice spins within just
a few minutes, but it just doesn't work the other way round. The
pre-defined pivot point is just too unforgiving in comparison.
Designing your own hybrid skate is really a great idea because
the experience you gain will not just help improve your spinning but also
give you ideas on how to improve the skate :)
have fun experimenting... Kai
wi...@spooky.rwwa.com
>
> You have to teach yourself to
> land the jumps flat though instead of toe to heel, because the toe stop
> stops you dead in your tracks.
Well, you're supposed to land jumps on the ball of your foot, not
your toe, so that will probably help your ice skating also.
> P.S. I don't have a rocker on the skates now, would that help?
It seems to help me.
P.S., can you give more details on your toe mechanism?
Jennifer Kretschmer
> After reading these discussions for a few days, and seeing my name pop up
> a few times, I guess I'll explain what I did to make a pair of inline
> figure skates. I call my skates the "Hybrid" or affectionately "the
> mutt" since I used parts and my knowledge of ice, roller, and inline
> skating. First, I took a pair of my old ice skates and ripped the blade
> off of the leather Harlick brand boot. I bought a Suregrip H-100 inline
> hockey frame and LaBeda wheels with Killer Bee bearings. The toe stop
> attachment was sawed off a pair of old roller skates, and I chose a
> Snyder toe stop (small one about 1 1/4" diameter). Because of the size
> of my foot, I had to go with a three wheeled skate, but this has proven
> to be better for the jumps for me than the four wheeled kind. The toe
> stop attachment allows me to replace a toe stop easily when I wear one
> down like a regular roller skate. I mounted the blade in the same
> position as the ice and roller skates are mounted with the first wheel at
> the ball of the foot and the last wheel trailing slightly behind the heel
> like an ice blade. The toe stop attachment is mounted with some machine
> work to an extention that then mounts to the inline blade. This is hard
> to explain the process, but the results are fantastic!
> With the leather boot, the whole skate seems lighter and definitly fits
> better to my foot for more precision skating. You name any single figure
> skating jump, and I can do it on these skates (except an axel, I'm
> chickening out). I've been trying double jumps too, and can get the
> height necessary whith these toe stops. You have to teach yourself to
> land the jumps flat though instead of toe to heel, because the toe stop
> stops you dead in your tracks. I can sort of do one foot back spins, but
> forward spins still seem impossible. I don't know if it's the skates, or
> my ability. If someone can figure that part out for me and my skates, I
> will then have nothing stopping me!
> Jennifer
Duncan Savage
>Assuming that it's difficult, I think part of the problem is the absurd
>forward placemnt of the front wheel - it puts too much leverage on the
>foot for a natural balance or requries tilting the skate way up and
>then the lack of back-flex in the boot interferes. My notion is that
>if you were to just take of the toe wheel or replaces it with a small
>wheel that's out of the way, doing one foot spins on the second wheel
>should be relatively easy.
I'll agree here, as long as we keep the "relatively" bit in perspective.
I've managed, on rockered skates, to squeak out maybe four revs in a
FO one foot upright spin. The limiting factor was that there was
always some contact of a second wheel pumping around the spinning
wheel, so with a more extreme differential in wheel settings and
a bit of balance I could envisage a decent spin.
A few years back, a friend who was a world-class artistic
rollerskater told me that he'd managed sitspins by rockering the
second wheel down and the rest up. I never saw him doing them (as it
did require re-setting of the wheel rocker), so I don't know
how good they were :)
Duncan.
Shooshie
<Pine.A32.3.91.950713...@trumpet.aix.calpoly.edu>,
Jennifer Kretschmer <jkre...@trumpet.aix.calpoly.edu> wrote:
|> I'm posting this again to see if I can get any new responses.
|>
|> > After reading these discussions for a few days, and seeing my name pop up
|> > a few times, I guess I'll explain what I did to make a pair of inline
|> > figure skates. I call my skates the "Hybrid" or affectionately "the
|> > mutt" since I used parts and my knowledge of ice, roller, and inline
|> > skating.
I don't know what to say except that I wish you lived in Dallas and would
be my coach. And, I'd like to try your skates. Will they fit my 10 1/2
foot? Didn't figure they would.
|> > Jennifer
|> > P.S. I don't have a rocker on the skates now, would that help?
Probably not necessary for a 3 wheeled skate whose front wheel is at the
ball of the foot. If it is easy for you to try, go for it, but I wouldn't
waste your skates drilling new holes and so on. My wheelbase is about a
foot long. Rockering makes a big difference there. But I practice most of
my moves with flat set-up, simply because I don't have the time to go back
and forth to rockered, and I MUST have a flat setup for distance skating.
Sounds like you've got the best compromise in inline skating. I'd really
like to see you skate.
Shooshie
Jennifer Kretschmer
> |>
> |> > After reading these discussions for a few days, and seeing my name pop up
> |> > a few times, I guess I'll explain what I did to make a pair of inline
> |> > figure skates. I call my skates the "Hybrid" or affectionately "the
> |> > mutt" since I used parts and my knowledge of ice, roller, and inline
> |> > skating.
>
> I don't know what to say except that I wish you lived in Dallas and would
> be my coach. And, I'd like to try your skates. Will they fit my 10 1/2
> foot? Didn't figure they would.
>
it came with three wheels. You would have to go with a four-wheel
chasis, but I heard that rockering the second wheel down could help you
do spins. I was doing loop jumps, and salchows on my four-wheeled
Macroblades, so four wheels don't hinder jumps. The problem is in the
plastic boot. Once I started wearing my leather boots, everthing became
easier and more comfortable.
I wish that I could show you my skates too. They don't get a lot of
exposure in Morro Bay, CA. I hope that I can make a stir with them when I
move to San Jose, CA.
> Sounds like you've got the best compromise in inline skating. I'd really
> like to see you skate.
>
I feel the same way, but there are still a few fine tuning items that I'd
like to do to my skate, before I call it my masterpiece. Unfortunately,
I don't have the money to keep buying metal, and having someone machine
the work for me. It's times like these I wish that I was working for a
big skate design company so that I can have the resources to fine tune
and test my skate out. If I did, I could have my figure skating chasis
available to other skaters, and who knows maybe in-line figure skating
would become the new fastest growing sport in America then.
Jennifer
George Robbins
> I'm posting this again to see if I can get any new responses.
sleepy ole summertime...
> With the leather boot, the whole skate seems lighter and definitly fits
> better to my foot for more precision skating. You name any single figure
> skating jump, and I can do it on these skates (except an axel, I'm
> chickening out). I've been trying double jumps too, and can get the
> height necessary whith these toe stops. You have to teach yourself to
> land the jumps flat though instead of toe to heel, because the toe stop
> stops you dead in your tracks. I can sort of do one foot back spins, but
> forward spins still seem impossible. I don't know if it's the skates, or
> my ability. If someone can figure that part out for me and my skates, I
> will then have nothing stopping me!
> P.S. I don't have a rocker on the skates now, would that help?
I think you want some degree of rocker so that you can make progressive
shifts between having all 3-wheels on the ground, two wheels, one wheel
with the other just barely touching and then up on one wheel. The amount
of rocker needed isn't much, it could be from rocker bushings or using
something like 70 vs 72 vs 72.5 mm wheels in appropriate spots, or by
rotating/not-rotating you wheels so that the front and rear wheels are
always a teensy bit smaller.
As far as one-foot spins go, a skater at our rink has the PIC in-line
frames with integrated toe-stops that Rainbo sells, and was doing
fairly clean 6-9 revolution one-foot spins. He was also doing some
jumps, but obviously still getting used to the skates. From what I
understand he's an ex ice-skater who previously had regular in-lines
and thinks that PIC's are the best things since sliced bread... There's
also a PIC add-on stop, similar in concept to the "Skids" stop, but it
looks like it's of better construction. The actual PIC stop seems to
be pretty substantial, it's sort of like a wheel but the full width of
the frame gap, and not contoured.
Jennifer Kretschmer
>
> As far as one-foot spins go, a skater at our rink has the PIC in-line
> frames with integrated toe-stops that Rainbo sells, and was doing
> fairly clean 6-9 revolution one-foot spins. He was also doing some
> jumps, but obviously still getting used to the skates. From what I
> understand he's an ex ice-skater who previously had regular in-lines
> and thinks that PIC's are the best things since sliced bread... There's
>
check these skates out?
Jennifer
Mark Overton
> P.S. I don't have a rocker on the skates now, would that help?
This brings up an interesting topic:
Can you hold edges on inlines as easily as you can on quads and ice?
I've skated on inlines a little, and couldn't hold an edge at all.
When I leaned to the side, the inlines insisted on going straight instead.
If you can hold edges, how do you do it? Especially with no rocker?
- Mark
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mark Overton, Hewlett-Packard (San Diego Division), ma...@sdd.hp.com
"A hundred thousand lemmings can't be wrong." ... Unknown
Mark Overton
> > I've skated on inlines a little, and couldn't hold an edge at all.
> > When I leaned to the side, the inlines insisted on going straight instead.
> >
> skated previously on quads, so it must have something to do with the way
> trucks take an edge.
My background is ice, and I had the same problem with inlines. Perhaps
using harder wheels would make it easier to hold an edge?
Anyway, once one can hold decent edges on inlines, I see no reason why one
can't do good artistic skating in them.
George Robbins
>
>
> > I've skated on inlines a little, and couldn't hold an edge at all.
> > When I leaned to the side, the inlines insisted on going straight instead.
> >
> Many poeple have told me that they have that problem. Most of them
> skated previously on quads, so it must have something to do with the way
> high quality skate. It's even better for me now that I made my own skate.
> Try holding onto a wall or rail and force the skate onto an edge. Get the
> feeling of where your body had to be to hold that edge while still
> standing.
Yes, this is a fairly common observation. With quads, the "steering"
depends on the angle of lean of the skate, and for a given edge, the
skate doesn't need to lean as much as the body does. This means that
quad skaters are used to skating a bit "broken" at the ankles and the
difference between the lean of the skate and ankle/body becomes part of
the control reflex for how sharply you are turning. It is extremely
disconcerting when someone used to this reflex switches to ice skates or
in-lines where there is little or no reaction to just a change of lean
of the skate.
This doesn't neccessarily mean better or worse, just different. A roller
skater trying out ice skates needs to learn to keep ankles erect and achieve
a unity of body and ankle lean. A ice skater trying quads needs to learn
how small changes in ankle lean makes the skates steer in unexpected ways.
Inlines are even more sluggish on edges than ice skates - the key is learning
that how you distribute your weight. If your weight is evenly spread on
4 wheels or even 2 rockered wheels, they are not too responsive. If your
weight is all on one wheel, they pivot quite easily. As a result, you need
to learn to hold your balance so that you can control the weight distribution
according to the type of skating you are doing. Having the skates rockered
allows the pivot point to come closer to the center of the foot, at the
expense/benefit of reduced stability. You also want harder wheels if
your weight is normally on 2 wheels, rather than 3 or 4...
Jennifer Kretschmer
This is an excellent observation. Holding edges on inline skates is its
own unique thing. I'm so glad that you posted this, because I had a hard
time explaining in words something that I do instinctively and need to
demonstrate.
Jennifer