Help me pick a breed
he...@progenobvyioussystems.com
mastiff, standard schnauzer, mutts) but now that we're about ready for
our next dog -- and perhaps our last dog -- I thought it would be a good
idea to go to the Internet for guidance, hence this post. Your ideas,
via post or email, are very welcome as you consider criteria that are
important to us:
Area - San Diego
Size - 15-30#, a bit more rather than a bit less
Build - stout rather than spindly
Intelligence is paramount - the dog MUST be trainable
Coat - short (we're in a warm climate)
Shedding - hopefully not much, but not critical
Attitude - possessive, territorial
Exercise level - low to moderate
Our yard - 1/3 acre, fenced hillside
Breeding potential - no; the dog will be neutered/spayed
Show - no, under any circumstances. Never again.
Gender - either
Age - we won't go through puppytimes again, so want a grown dog
(rescue?)
Dog's duties will be companion to me and my wife, plus an alarm dog in
the home
Every dog we've ever had was trained off-leash, with 100% reliable
response to voice and hand signals. We'd like a dog that is similarly
reliable and unlikely to run, but off-leash perfection is unlikely
unless the dog was trained that way since day one. Ah well... we can buy
a leash, I suppose.
We will appreciate your opinions.
Thanks!
SORRY FOR THE INCONVENIENCE
Some viruses harvest email targets from an Inbox or Address Book. There's even one that gets addresses from newsgroups! Therefore, to email me please remove the OBVIOUS.
oooieoo
that would be cause for elimination. The dogs I can think of--perfect for
what you want, all tend toward being pretty active or are too large. How
firm are you regarding your list? Is this just a wishlist where you'll be
happy finding a dog who meets most of the criteria?
I've been seeing lots of PitBull mixes lately and am finding myself drawn
more and more to them. They've got the bone and conformation/balance I
always look for in a dog. They've got the short hair, they train super
easily, they're goofy at times, wannbe lapdogs at times, they love their
families and are reserved but cordial to outsiders, depending on what the
other half of the mix is. They aren't yappy. In fact I don't think I've
heard any of these dogs bark. Maybe others will have input on this part (I'm
thinking of the alarm dog part of your list).
If you look around, a PB mix like this could probably fall into your size
category. The one glitch in this recommendation is the exercise level they
need. Seems to me all the PB mixes I've seen tend to need/want lots and lots
of exercise. Your large lot would take care of a great deal of that part.
The dog would probably be very happy to get in 20 minutes of running after
tennis balls several times a week. If throwing the ball is a difficult
thing, you can try batting the ball. If that's a difficult maneuver, there's
a stick-thing you can get at the pet store that will hold a tennis ball. You
swing the stick in a throwing motion (with little force), then the ball gets
released with more force than was used to throw it..... and the ball goes a
pretty long way.
Good luck!
oooieoo <----- who thinks a rescue dog would be perfect for you
----------------------
<he...@progenOBVyIOUSsystems.com> wrote in message
news:3AA9B074...@progenysystems.com...
Nancy Holmes or Nelson Ruffin
want a middle aged dog - would have suggested a standard schnauzer except
you have already had one :-) another thought is a miniature poodle - clip it
short and its not a big deal to maintain the coat.
Nancy
<he...@progenOBVyIOUSsystems.com> wrote in message
news:3AA9B074...@progenysystems.com...
he...@progenobvyioussystems.com
animalmatch.
I don't want another mixed breed unless it's old enough to permit
accurate assessment of character, temperament, etc., and that takes days
-- time that in this situation we probably won't have. The genetic
proclivities of a breed seems to be persistent.
A pit bull would make us no friends. Though our children are grown and
gone, our neighborhood is full of them and there's considerable
antipathy toward the breed here. For that matter, people don't like any
dog that has a negative reputation or local history. A gentleman with a
napolitan mastiff warned people that his dog wasn't friendly and put up
a 'beware' sign; through a series of notes and visits he was convinced
to change breeds.
Schnauzers can be wonderful - the standard I once had was brilliant. I
was a Marine flight instructor at the time, and one day the dog showed
up on the base to which he'd never been taken. Did he follow the car?
Hide in it? No one knows, but he got to the base five miles away from
the house, and showed up on the flight line! A larger poodle in a
perpetual puppy clip would certainly be a nice dog -- I've trained a
couple of them and found them brighter than those who supported Clinton
during the scandals. But poodles and schnauzers need a lot of grooming,
and we really don't want to buy another set of clippers. We might not
have much choice...
I met a lundehund - a 20# Norse dog bred to capture puffins from cliffs.
Nice attitude, terrific grin, too many toes, and all of today's dogs
come from a genetic pool consisting of about four dogs. Someone
suggested an undersize (runt) boxer bitch - to make the weight limit. I
found them to be nice dogs, but difficult to train. The basenji people
agree that their dogs are cutely destructive, and schipperkes are
selective listeners to all languages but Flemish. Someone mentioned one
of the small Japanese dogs, but Japanese dogs are Samurais off-leash,
and the neighborhood is full of foreign devils.
So far, poodles and schnauzers are on the A List. Any other thoughts?
Off to animalmatch...
Heidz
in a dog, not what kind it is? If you want a protection dog, find someone
who offers trained protection dogs (which protect when you tell them to and
stop when you say stop and are otherwise wonderful family pets). You could
find good prospects in a lot of breeds, but the finding the breed, size,
individual temperment you want is going to be a crap shoot with almost all
breeds. I'd say cut to the chase and shop for what you really want. :-)
<he...@progenOBVyIOUSsystems.com> wrote in message
news:3AAA5E05...@progenysystems.com...
he...@progenobvyioussystems.com
>
> Rather than look for a specific breed, why not go looking for what you want
> in a dog, not what kind it is?
Thanks!
That seems to favor a search for the "right-looking" dog, but except for
coat and size looks are unimportant. To us, trainability and temperament
are paramount. Mixed-breeds are generally of uncertain temperament
unless mature, and even then the new owner should spend days evaluating
the dog; purebreds are a bit more predictable. So, to narrow the search
I prepared that wish-list...
Henry
Heidz
are most important and difficult to find - you want an alert dog - get one
that's already trained, that way you're sure of his temperament and
trainability, the other things, coat, size etc. to me would be secondary to
the temperament and the specific tasks you expect from the dog.
<he...@progenOBVyIOUSsystems.com> wrote in message
news:3AAA6B31...@progenysystems.com...
loki
puppy.
Any mix I've had as a foster I knew well and was always completely honest
with the adoptive family about temperament.
I don't see why a rescue mix wouldn't work. Heck, the dog I just placed
would have been perfect. She was everything on this list.
The foster parents have the dogs long enough to get to know them well. We
do try to place the dog with people that will be best for it based on the
dog's needs. Please consider such a dog.
Loki
"Heidz" <spam...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:tal2mid...@corp.supernews.com...
he...@progenobvyioussystems.com
but on reflection it appears that you are right! If a dog has been in a
foster home for a while, there's plenty of information on behavior,
attitude, etc.
Thanks!
jprhedd
the dog that you KNOW is right for you. Sounds like you have enough
background to fine tune a dog that strikes you just right. They have the
largest selection of non puppies.
Nick C
Corgi. Stout, possessive and good companion as well as very intelligent and
easily trained. Just my thoughts
Nick C
<he...@progenOBVyIOUSsystems.com> wrote in message
news:3AA9B074...@progenysystems.com...
he...@progenobvyioussystems.com
>
> I may be prejudiced but it seems to me that you are describing a Welsh
> Corgi.
A good idea! I've enjoyed a few romps with them and thought they were
personable and "stout." Intelligent, though? I don't have personal
knowledge of that. And how would a corgi leap into a car?
:^)
Rocky
<3AAAE31C...@progenysystems.com>:
>And how would a corgi leap into a car?
Corgis are generally pretty good at agility (herding dog
dontchaknow ;) and fun to watch.
--
--Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
http://www.cadvision.com/bonnerm/
Charles Richmond
>
> [snip...] [snip...] [sinp...]
>
>A larger poodle in a
> perpetual puppy clip would certainly be a nice dog -- I've trained a
> couple of them and found them brighter than those who supported Clinton
> during the scandals.
>
Bush, the recession he is bringing with him, and all the anti-labor
legislation that he is supporting...
--
+-------------------------------------------------------------+
| Charles and Francis Richmond <rich...@plano.net> |
+-------------------------------------------------------------+
Charles Richmond
>
> I may be prejudiced but it seems to me that you are describing a Welsh
> Corgi. Stout, possessive and good companion as well as very intelligent and
> easily trained. Just my thoughts
> Nick C
>
a problem. Also, I know that Corgi's can sometimes have attitude problems...
there is a Corgi that goes to my vet who does *not* like any black dog...
I have to be sure he is *not* going to be there the days that my black
Labs are vaccinated...
he...@progenobvyioussystems.com
>
> I'l take Clinton and the scandals, along with prosperity...you can have
> Bush, the recession he is bringing with him, and all the anti-labor
> legislation that he is supporting...
Your ignorant post is certainly miles off-topic, but screams for a
response... Check with any serious theoretician in economics and you can
confirm this:
With an economic mass the size of ours, there is a 5-10 year lag between
cause and effect. Clinton enjoyed a Republican prosperity, and Bush will
reap the result of Clinton's economic policies.
...and I am a liberal!
Charles Richmond
>
> Charles Richmond wrote:
> >
>
> > I'l take Clinton and the scandals, along with prosperity...you can have
> > Bush, the recession he is bringing with him, and all the anti-labor
> > legislation that he is supporting...
>
> Your ignorant post is certainly miles off-topic, but screams for a
> response... Check with any serious theoretician in economics and you can
> confirm this:
>
> With an economic mass the size of ours, there is a 5-10 year lag between
> cause and effect. Clinton enjoyed a Republican prosperity, and Bush will
> reap the result of Clinton's economic policies.
>
> ...and I am a liberal!
>
How about addressing the anti-labor legislation now???
D.M.S. Lewis
breed so I'm throwing in my favorite for your consideration. Take a look at
the American Rat Terrier, see if he might be just what you are looking for.
The Rat Terrier has a strong following and it's fans are very committed to
the breed.
RTs come in 3 sizes, toy, mini and standard, the later being 16+lbs. There
are even some "giant" ones being bred now but they are pretty rare. The
standard size is sturdy although not heavy boned. They are quite
intelligent and train easily. They can occasionally be stubborn but I've
never found it a hinderance as they are also eager to please, being
something of a "pack" dog by nature. Coat is short and smooth, shedding is
about the same as any shorthaired breed. (There is even a hairless variety,
known as American Hairless Terrier) They are territorial, alert and
possessive. They will bark at unusual things but overall are not prone to
"yappiness".
They are a terrier so have a terrier's fiesty tenacity and can be very
active but in my experience with several terrier breeds, the RT is the best
I've seen at being a "couch potato", happy to spend an afternoon sacked out
on the couch with it's owner. They also entertain themselves fairly well
and if you have more than one they will exercise themselves quite well
especially in 1/3 acre fenced yard. BTW if you have any problem with
mice/rats they will take care of that quickly, having been bred to kill
rats, thus the name.
This is a link to the rescue I am involved in. Take a look at what is
available. www.ratbonerescues.com
This link is to a page of Rat Terrier links where you can find all kinds of
information on the breed. http://members.spree.com/annies/RT.htm
Thats the hype on "my" breed. Good luck in your search.
> Over the decades, we've gotten a lot of experience >
he...@progenobvyioussystems.com
>
> At least I was kind enough *not* to be name calling...like you do!!!
> How about addressing the anti-labor legislation now???
Name calling? No -- your response *WAS* ignorant, unequivocally.
As for "anti-labor legislation," I'm ignorant.
Hereafter, please take this dialog to
alt.politics.ignorant_of_the_issues
Henry
he...@progenobvyioussystems.com
hadn't even considered till now. And the site is really interesting!
Henry
Melinda Shore
<he...@progenOBVyIOUSsystems.com> wrote:
>Hereafter, please take this dialog to
>alt.politics.ignorant_of_the_issues
If you felt that the discussion was sufficiently out-of-
scope to berate the other guy, why are you continuing the
discussion?
--
Melinda Shore - Software longa, hardware brevis - sh...@panix.com
If you send me harassing email, I'll probably post it
Nancy Holmes or Nelson Ruffin
affenpinscher. Sounds like you have the background to handle an affectionate
dog with an attitude.
But you know look around there are rescuers who will tell you all the
foibles of the dogs, and if you know dogs well you can really tell a lot if
the shelter will let you take a young adult dog for a walk and handle it all
over before adoption.
Nancy
<he...@progenOBVyIOUSsystems.com> wrote in message
KIVALINA
I would look into the Polish Lowland Sheepdog. Attached are several
links for information.
They are a mid sized dog (females approx 30 lbs.) Very sturdy, not
much shedding, however some grooming (they can be kept clipped down)
herding instincts (possessive and protective)
very trainable, excellent in obedience. You should be careful of any
breed that you may look at for protection instincts. Many people
misinterpret protective and justify an aggressive temperament.
The parent club site is www.aponc.com
Other sites with information are www.pon.com www.pawtown.com/ponline
and my website at http://www.pawtown.com/kivalina
Good luck in your search
--
Andrea
KIVALINA . . . Quality Siberian Huskies and
Polish Lowland Sheepdogs
http://www.pawtown.com/kivalina
ICQ 99779085
No part of the enclosed message may be copied without consent
<he...@progenOBVyIOUSsystems.com> wrote in message
news:3AA9B074...@progenysystems.com...
Charles Richmond
>
> Charles Richmond wrote:
> >
> > At least I was kind enough *not* to be name calling...like you do!!!
> > How about addressing the anti-labor legislation now???
>
> Name calling? No -- your response *WAS* ignorant, unequivocally.
> As for "anti-labor legislation," I'm ignorant.
>
> Hereafter, please take this dialog to
> alt.politics.ignorant_of_the_issues
>
keep your snide political remarks to yourself!!! *You* go to
alt.pllitics.ignorant_of_the_issues.jarhead...
Charles Richmond
>
> Charles Richmond wrote:
> >
> > At least I was kind enough *not* to be name calling...like you do!!!
> > How about addressing the anti-labor legislation now???
>
> Name calling? No -- your response *WAS* ignorant, unequivocally.
> As for "anti-labor legislation," I'm ignorant.
>
> Hereafter, please take this dialog to
> alt.politics.ignorant_of_the_issues
>
keep your snide political remarks to yourself!!! *You* go to
Charles Richmond
>
> Charles Richmond wrote:
> >
> > At least I was kind enough *not* to be name calling...like you do!!!
> > How about addressing the anti-labor legislation now???
>
> Name calling? No -- your response *WAS* ignorant, unequivocally.
> As for "anti-labor legislation," I'm ignorant.
>
> Hereafter, please take this dialog to
> alt.politics.ignorant_of_the_issues
>
one who will be blamed for the recession...as for Clinton inheriting
the economic prosperity: if the economy had gone down under Clinton,
*he* would have been blamed. Seems only right to give him the credit
for the continued good economy under his administration.
Political dialog does *not* belong in this newsgroup...I agree.
So in the future, take *your* snide remarks about Clinton and his
supporter to the proper newsgroup.
he...@progenspleenysystems.com
>
> Well if you were on the right coast I'd consider you for my 'giant'
> affenpinscher. Sounds like you have the background to handle an affectionate
> dog with an attitude.
Thanks, Nancy:
Affenpinscher?
I trained a couple of them many years ago. Sort of a stubborn q-tip, but
a lot of fun. Though they look like terriers they got along well with
other animals. Not for me, though. My recollection is that they're not
that easy to train, they're too small (how big is a 'giant?") and I'll
never confuse cute behavior with smart behavior.
--
Henry
The older I get, the better I was...
Kevin McAllister
breeds that best match what you want.
he...@progenOBVyIOUSsystems.com wrote:
LongLivePets
Here is another biased response! I have a Coton De Tulear
(http://members.aol.com/cotonnews) and he is such a great dog! I know that they
have Coton rescue programs for older dogs, so I thought I would go down your
list:
>Area - San Diego (not sure if there are Coton rescues in CA, but I am sure
there are breeders)
>Size - 15-30#, a bit more rather than a bit less (my Coton is almost 16 lbs.
Some are larger, some are smaller...they go up to 18 lbs.)
>Build - stout rather than spindly (these are stocky dogs)
>Intelligence is paramount - the dog MUST be trainable (this breed is extremely
intelligent and is very agile)
>Coat - short (I keep my dog's coat clipped and he looks like a large stock
Jack Russel)
>Shedding - hopefully not much, but not critical (these dogs do not shed!)
>Attitude - possessive, territorial (Our Coton is very posessive and protective
with my me, my kids and our home...however he does not bite, just barks)
>Exercise level - low to moderate (perfect)
>Our yard - 1/3 acre, fenced hillside (perfect)
>Breeding potential - no; the dog will be neutered/spayed (get a larger
non-show quality one or rescue and save money)
>Show - no, under any circumstances. Never again.
>Gender - either
>Age - we won't go through puppytimes again, so want a grown dog
>(rescue?) (There is a rescue link on the URL above and I have seen other Coton
rescues as well. You can also contact breeders because they will often have an
adult dog who did not turn out to be show quality who they want to find a good
home for)
>Dog's duties will be companion to me and my wife, plus an alarm dog in
>the home (Cotons are perfect for that)
>
>Every dog we've ever had was trained off-leash, with 100% reliable
>response to voice and hand signals. We'd like a dog that is similarly
>reliable and unlikely to run, but off-leash perfection is unlikely
>unless the dog was trained that way since day one. Ah well... we can buy
>a leash, I suppose.
Cotons do not like to stray...they are very much attached to their owners. If
you would like for me to email you a picture of my larger Coton with his short
hair, then let me know.
Good luck with your search!
Ellen
Adele
by Sharon Mathers
There is a deadly disease stalking your dog, a hideous, stealthy thing just
waiting its chance to steal your beloved friend. It is not a new disease, or
one for which there is an inoculation. The disease is called "Trust." You
knew before you ever took your puppy home that it could not be trusted. The
breeder who provided you with this precious animal warned you, drummed it
into your head. Puppies steal off counters, destroy anything expensive,
chase cats, take forever to house train, and must never be allowed off
lead!!! When the big day finally arrived, heeding the sage advice of the
breeder, you escorted your puppy to his new home, properly collared and
tagged, the lead held tightly in your hand. At home, the house was "puppy
proofed." Everything of value was stored in the spare bedroom, garbage
stored on top of the refrigerator. Cats separated, and a gate placed across
the living room to keep at least one part of the house "puddle free." All
the windows and doors had been properly secured, and signs placed in all
strategic points reminding all to "Close the door!" Soon it becomes second
nature to make sure the door closes nine tenths of a second after it was
opened and that it is really latched. "Don't let the dog out" is your second
most verbalized expression. (The first is "NO!") You worry and fuss
constantly, terrified that your darling will get out and disaster will
surely follow. Your friends comment about who you love most, your family or
the dog. You know that to relax your vigil for a moment might lose him to
you forever.
And so the weeks and months pass, with your puppy becoming more civilized
every day, and the seeds of trust are planted. It seems that each new day
brings less destruction, less breakage. Almost before you know it, your
gangly, slurpy puppy has turned into an elegant, dignified friend. Now that
he is a more reliable, sedate companion, you take him more places. No longer
does he chew the steering wheel when left in the car. And darn it if that
cake wasn't still on the counter this morning. And, oh yes, wasn't that the
cat he was sleeping with so cozily on your pillow last night? At this point
you are beginning to become infected, the disease is spreading its roots
deep into your mind. And then one of your friends suggests obedience classes
and after a time, you even let him run loose from the car into the house
when you get home. Why not, he always runs straight to the door, dancing a
frenzy of joy and waits to be let in. And, remember he comes ever time he is
called. You know he is the exception that disproves the rule. (And sometimes
late at night, you even let him slip out the front door to go potty and then
right back in). Years pass. It's hard to remember why you ever worried so
much when he was a puppy. He would never think of running out the door left
open while you bring in the packages from the car. It would be beneath his
dignity to jump out the window of the car while you run into the convenience
store. And when you take him for those wonderful, long walks at dawn, it
only takes one whistle to send him racing back to you in a burst of speed
when the walk becomes too close to the highway. He still gets in the
garbage, but nobody is perfect. This is the time the disease has waited for
so patiently. Sometimes it only has to wait a year or two, but often it
takes much longer. He spies the neighborhood dog across the street and
suddenly forgets everything he ever knew about not slipping outdoors,
jumping out windows or coming when called due to traffic. Perhaps it was
only a paper fluttering in the breeze, or even just the sheer joy of
running...Stopped in an instant. Stilled forever, your heart is broken at
the sight of his still body. The disease is trust. The final outcome-hit by
a car.
Every morning for seven years my dog bounced around off lead exploring.
Every morning for seven years he came back when he was called. He was
perfectly obedience trained, and I thought, perfectly trustworthy. He died
fourteen hours after being hit by a car. Please do not risk your friend and
your heart. Save the trust for things that don't matter. Please read this
every year on your puppy's birthday, lest we forget.
Published, 1988, in Canine
Concepts and Community Animal Control Magazine
I was about to recommend the highly intelligent Brittany, known as wonderful
watch (not guard) dogs but for two things... they're no couch potatoes and
have been known to make Border Collies look lazy, and the second reason is
that you've been lucky so far, and luck eventually runs out! I don't want
it to be with a Brittany. By the way, I am a former breeder/shower of Irish
wolfhounds and Chow Chows with over 30 years experience with canines who
KNOWS better - there's no such thing as 100% reliable off leash - I repeat,
you were lucky, and I am grateful and happy for you and most especially for
your dogs. This type of complacency though could be a death sentence for
future dogs; please, keep your dog safe and leashed.
Every dog we've ever had was trained off-leash, with 100% reliable
> response to voice and hand signals. We'd like a dog that is similarly
> reliable and unlikely to run, but off-leash perfection is unlikely
> unless the dog was trained that way since day one.
Adele Shutes and The Brittany Brigade
To the world, you're just a person; to a rescued dog, you are the world!
Texas Brittany Rescue Network http://texasbrittanyrescue.org
National Brittany Rescue & Adoption Network, Inc. a non-profit organization
http://nbran.org
If you love Brittanys, join Brittany...@yahoogroups.com and
brittan...@yahoogroups.com
Support Texas Brittany Rescue through your purchases from
http://www.cafepress.com/texasbritts/
Nisma Woeman
life jailed for fear of something happening to him.
Personally, I would like to have a BIG buffer between the dog and traffic,
before I'd ever consider letting him off-leash (regardless of how well
obedience trained). Usually from front door to traffic is not a very long
run...
I think there is a fine balance between over protective and reasonably
cautious
-- nisma
> Trust - A Deadly Disease
> by Sharon Mathers
...
> Every morning for seven years my dog bounced around off lead exploring.
> Every morning for seven years he came back when he was called. He was
> perfectly obedience trained, and I thought, perfectly trustworthy. He died
> fourteen hours after being hit by a car. Please do not risk your friend
and
> your heart. Save the trust for things that don't matter. Please read this
> every year on your puppy's birthday, lest we forget.
...
Robert Dimond
in the paragraph directly below my response is the author implying by
"explore" that he let the dog roam without maintaining some visual
contact? If so, then one is asking for trouble.
I for one am vulerable to the trust virus to a point. I have had the
privilege of owning three wonderful dogs who had little or no tendency to
roam. That isn't to say I let them out and went about my own business,
but I trusted them to come when called. I never took eye contact off of
them, watching their body language to see if they were "tuning in" to
something that would let their instincts to take over their behavior. If
the dogs showed signs of "tuning in" I would immediately distract them
and call them over. Continued "tuning in" and they would be leashed.
Adele is right. There is no 100% guarantee for a dog off leash. Believe
that statement, and you'll lose your vigilance, and perhaps pay the
consequences. But is there 100% guarantee with anything other than paying
taxes and dying?
While I might be in the minority in this group, I feel that a dog, like
any other animal lives to have a certain degree of freedom. I truly feel
that all my dogs have enjoyed a better life by me taking the time to take
them to a remote field or park instead of merely exercising them on a
leash. It is also a joy to see such noble animals pushing themselves as
fast as they want to go or exploring their surroundings in a more
whimsical fashion than they can do on leash.
I guess it comes down to risk verses reward. If we want to completely
eliminate the risk of a losing a dog, then a leash held by an adult, or a
concrete dog run are your only alternatives. Much like how I live my own
life with activities like boating, biking, skiing and eating high fat
foods, I trade a small degree of risk for living a happier life on my
terms. Yes even with my constant vigilance there is some risk that I will
lose an animal, should that happen I will mourn. But I will take at least
some solace knowing that animals spirit was allowed to soar during its
tenure on earth.
I'm not sure there is a right or wrong to this issue, merely ones philosophy.
Bob Dimond
Nancy Holmes or Nelson Ruffin
you know.
Nancy
Kevin McAllister <gold...@clear.lakes.com> wrote in message
news:3AAE6E9A...@clear.lakes.com...
Catherine Warrick
for breeders. At least, the several I've seen only deal with types of dog, not
places to buy them.
You can get to one of these things via www.purina.com/dogs, and there's another
at www.dogbreedinfo.com.
And I'm not really convinced that these things are the best way to pick a dog
breed, but they're kind of fun, if nothing else!
--Cathy
Nancy Holmes or Nelson Ruffin wrote:
Catherine Warrick
and it suggested that I get the "breed" called "Goldendoodle," and then spewed
some nonsense about how hybrid crosses are healthier than either of the parent
breeds, and less susceptible to genetically-transmitted diseases.
Ugh. Not a useful site.
--Cathy
he...@progenspleenysystems.com
>
> Eww, eww, I take it back. I just tried the breed selector at dogbreedinfo.com,
> and it suggested that I get the "breed" called "Goldendoodle," and then spewed
> some nonsense about how hybrid crosses are healthier than either of the parent
> breeds
Hmmmm...
In poultry production, the male and female each carry unique genetic
strains. The "hybrid vigor" effect produces healthy and
disease-resistant offspring with an incredible growth explosion (from
hatch to 5# in 42 days!!). Why doesn't the principle of hybrid vigor
apply to dogs?
Henry
Who's not trolling -- I really wonder about this!
Nancy Holmes or Nelson Ruffin
newsgroups - I don't know if the google search will bring them up but if not
maybe someone saved some to send along to you?
Lets see for a quick thought - if you breed a dysplasitc lab who is very
hyper and birdy to a dysplastic GSD who has a serious sharp shy aggression
problem and a very strong prey drive and both dogs have skin problems due to
allergies what do you think about the 'hybrid vigor' in the pups?
See responsible breeders with nice health tested dogs are not the people
producing mutts for profit - so you get what you get and its often not
pretty at all. Not to mention the grooming nightmare 'mixes' out there where
dog with different type coats are crossbred into a nasty messed up mixed
coat nearly impossible to keep a dog comfortably groomed in.
Nancy
<he...@progenSPLEENysystems.com> wrote in message
news:3AAEFF75...@progenysystems.com...
Adele
--
Adele Shutes and The Brittany Brigade
To the world, you're just a person; to a rescued dog, you are the world!
Texas Brittany Rescue Network http://texasbrittanyrescue.org
National Brittany Rescue & Adoption Network, Inc. a non-profit organization
http://nbran.org
If you love Brittanys, join Brittany...@yahoogroups.com and
brittan...@yahoogroups.com
Support Texas Brittany Rescue through your purchases from
http://www.cafepress.com/texasbritts/
"Nisma Woeman" <nis...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:98m72k$a1$1...@ra.nrl.navy.mil...
> Well, at least he didn't have an overprotective mom and had to spend his
> life jailed for fear of something happening to him.
>
> Personally, I would like to have a BIG buffer between the dog and traffic,
> before I'd ever consider letting him off-leash (regardless of how well
> obedience trained). Usually from front door to traffic is not a very long
> run...
>
> I think there is a fine balance between over protective and reasonably
> cautious
> -- nisma
And a broad line between common sense, responsibility and altruism. What do
you consider a big buffer? 10 feet, 20? Maybe 50 yards? I've had dogs
cover a mile faster than I ever imagined and lost visual contact before I
could run 20 feet back to my vehicle to try and catch up with them! When I
rasied Irish wolfhounds, we would run them to spring their chests - we've
measured steps that hit the ground every 12 feet and clocked them at 37
mph... Who do you know who could keep up with that pace, Carl Lewis? No
way!
Why do you consider being walked on leash on the street the same as being in
jail? Would you allow a 3-year old child to walk down a busy street without
holding their hand, or would that hurt their little pysche too much? There
are safe places for children to play and safe places for dogs to run free,
but off leash on the street is most assuredly not one of them!
he...@progenspleenysystems.com
>
The principle of hybrid vigor applies to circumstances where two
carefully selected and 100% healthy strains are mixed for the first time
to produce offspring with important characteristics not available from
either of the parental bloodlines. In poultry, the parents are selected
for specific desirable traits such as growth rate, disease and parasite
resistance, white meat, general health, behaviors, etc.
If the principle of hybrid vigor applies to other species (and it
must!), then a healthy, excellent canine pair representing diverse
genetic channels should produce superior pups.
Or not. What am I missing?
Catherine Warrick
he...@progenSPLEENysystems.com wrote:
> The principle of hybrid vigor applies to circumstances where two
> carefully selected and 100% healthy strains are mixed for the first time
> to produce offspring with important characteristics not available from
> either of the parental bloodlines. In poultry, the parents are selected
> for specific desirable traits such as growth rate, disease and parasite
> resistance, white meat, general health, behaviors, etc.
>
> If the principle of hybrid vigor applies to other species (and it
> must!), then a healthy, excellent canine pair representing diverse
> genetic channels should produce superior pups.
>
> Or not. What am I missing?
It could well work this way in dogs, too - I mean, it sounds logical to me, but someone who actually knows something about genetics could probably tell us if it's true.
What I was objecting to in the breed selector site was the implication that crossbreeds are automatically immune to the problems affecting the parent breeds. And I suspect
that a lot of people might buy that argument, since hybrids *can* be more vigorous, and there's a certain amount of distaste for "overbred," "highstrung" animals. There
was nothing in the "breed" description of the Goldendoodle to suggest that the health of both parent lines would need to be considered - just a suggestion that crossbreeds
are naturally healthier.
Plus which, I just object to the silly word "Goldendoodle."
--Cathy
Victoria Neff
market weight quickly and "thriftily."
It says exactly NOTHING about long term prospects for the animal, which
is expected to have exactly NO long term prospects. No one cares if that
market lamb would have been blind by one year, or crippled by the sheeply
version of hip dysplasia at two years, because it's lamb chops by six months.
Hybrid vigor applies to market "crops." Not to pet animals that are hoped
and expected to live long, sound, healthy lives.
dianne marie schoenberg
>Hybrid vigor applies to market "crops." Not to pet animals that
>are hoped and expected to live long, sound, healthy lives.
Excellent post, Victoria. I'd like to also add that the
scientific definition of "hybrid vigor" (the correct name
is heterosis) is that by some measure the offspring of
two dissimilar parents outperforms the expected average
for such a mix. For instance, a Jersey cow may be
expected to produce 1000 pounds of milk a year and a
Holstein cow 2000 pounds of milk a year. So the
expected average between the two would be 1500 pounds
a year. If it's known that Jersey/Holstein crosses
produce on average 1800 pounds a year, that is an
example of heterosis. (Note, however, that the cross
still doesn't produce as much as a purebred Holstein
would!) However, we *don't* have any measures for
the qualities that most pet owners want in dogs
(intelligence, affectionateness etc.) so it's
useless to assert that heterosis holds true for
them. Similarly, there's no real evidence that
mixed breeds are any healthier than purebreds,
either.
Also, it's well documented that negative heterosis
exists too--that is, a mix may be known to perform
*less* well than would be expected from an average
of the two parents. So it cannot be assumed that
"hybrid vigor" is always a good thing.
Dianne
Kim & the crew
a couple bigger than 30#! I'm not sure if your attitude requirements are
flexible, but my old man Boston is as grumpy with others and keeps all the
foster dogs in line.And believe me, not a car pulls in the drive-way that he
doesn't know about and lets us know too.
Good luck!
Kim
<he...@progenOBVyIOUSsystems.com> wrote in message
news:3AA9B074...@progenysystems.com...
he...@progenspleenysystems.com
>
> Victoria Neff <v...@wolf.icpsr.umich.edu> wrote:
> >Hybrid vigor applies to market "crops." Not to pet animals that
> >are hoped and expected to live long, sound, healthy lives.
>
> Excellent post, Victoria. I'd like to also add that the
> scientific definition of "hybrid vigor" (the correct name
> is heterosis) is that by some measure the offspring of
> two dissimilar parents outperforms the expected average
> for such a mix.
Heterosis applies to all species, not just to "crops." Though it's
evident that I've offended by asking questions about application of the
principle to pet animals, that wasn't my intent. But the question
remains unaddressed...
Heterosis is a crap shoot the first time two genetically different
strains are crossed. The result can be superb or disaster. Reproductive
physiologists quickly learn which crosses are the most successul, and
which fail to meet goals. And it's even more complicated: a cross that
works well at one time of year might not at other times of the year.
Once a cross has been validated, it enters the arsenal of tools
available to the scientists managing the production process.
Would the offspring of two inbred GSDs of similar genetics be superior
to that of an outcross? Or that of a GSD with a different breed? I don't
know, but suggest that many - perhaps most - of today's 400+ breeds are
the results of such crosses.
Henry
he...@progenspleenysystems.com
>
> have you considered a Boston Terrier?
Sure - they're nice dogs.
Some I've met were fifty pound dogs (in a small black & white body).
I'm beginning to focus on the rat terrier -- a nice combination of size,
temperament, trainability! The two that I've met so far are like a JRT
at half the activity level. Every weight from 10# to >35#. Smart and
clean dogs, too. And, the rat terrier ("Feist," or Teddy Roosevelt) has
another advantage. It's a relatively recent cross between several
successful breeds -- hybrid vigor retained?
RPM1
>I'm beginning to focus on the rat terrier -- a nice combination of size,
>temperament, trainability! The two that I've met so far are like a JRT
>at half the activity level.
Yep, a sort of JRT Lite. ;-)
Ruth CM
RPM1
>Heh.... I like that. I know two Rat Terriers and I LOVE those little
>suckers! All that buffness in such a small package. :D
LOL. It looks like my little rescue Ratter puppy is
turning out to be a toy (we weren't sure how much
he'd grow/weigh when we got him). That's fine.
Still as much fun with half the poop! He sure
doesn't know how small he is. He goes out to
the barn with me and pokes in every hole and
he even 'thinks' he keeps the horses in line. He
has his faults. He'll never breed. I stumbled on
the breed by goof really and I now know that there
will always be a RT in my house (maybe two)!
I looked around and there's one web site where they
show a RT with a big grin on his face. I thought it
was an aided graphic but my little guy actually DOES
this, smile that is. When I call him while he's in the
middle of furiously playing with some chewie toy he'll
FREEZE with this big, sh*t eating grin on his face and,
him being mostly black, it really strikes you. It was creepy
the first time I saw it. It's probably because of some
sort of fault but it's a riot nonetheless.
I've never been much of a dog person. I'm a horse person
really but ever since I met my little Buzzbee I feel a distinct
shift occurring.
Ruth CM
oooieoo
news:98otjh$13pi$1...@node17.cwnet.frontiernet.net...
Heh.... I like that. I know two Rat Terriers and I LOVE those little
suckers! All that buffness in such a small package. :D
oooieoo
Nisma Woeman
I think why people object to hybrids in pet dogs is this:
responsible breeders (those that care about genetics and breeding healthy
dogs) of purebreds usually require that their pups which do not quite meet
breed standards are neutered. This leaves un-altered pups with potential to
show and breed. It is rare (close to nil), that one of these pups will end
up being bred to another dog breed for producing certain hybrids, since the
object of just about all responsible breeders is to further the breed's
future. If however, these dogs were bred to other dog breeds (from similar
responsible breeders) you will probably get some pretty healthy and vigorous
dogs.
However, the reality in the american doggie world is such, that purebred
dogs who are used to produce hybrids/mutts have not been themselves produced
by responsible breeders and have not been checked for genetic diseases and
are the product of ignorant breeding (no knowledge of genetics) and much
more likely to be either afflicted with some genetic diseases or carriers
thereof. Bred to other dogs (from a different breed) who come from similar
backgrounds, you can see that the likelihood of a nowadays offered hybrid
being less healthy than a purebred from a responsible breeder is higher.
I don't know squat about genetics myself , but it seems to me, that it makes
a difference in outcome whether you draw the parents from a pool of
carefully bred dogs with an eye towards health and temperament or whether
you draw the parents from a pool of indiscriminately bred dogs with no care
towards health or temperament.
Actually it is a little worse than that, since the second pool will have a
good share of dogs rejected for the first pool due to being carriers of
diseases.
To further confuse the issue: the hybrids might very well be more likely to
be vigorous than purebreds from a PUPPY MILL. Which might be where the
original claim started. Purebreds from puppy mills probably draw from a pool
with a high percentage of disease carriers. Which is why you hear so much
ranting and raving against puppy mills in these newsgroups.
So: if I were to gamble, I'd say the odds of getting a healthy vigorous
puppy are
high when gambling within pool #1 (bred by a responsible breeder)
low when gambling within pool #2 (bred in America - don't know about other
societies - as a hybrid)
abysmal when gambling within pool #3 (puppy mill products)
-- nisma
<he...@progenSPLEENysystems.com> wrote in message
news:3AAFF68D...@progenysystems.com...
Nisma Woeman
-- nisma
"Adele" <ash...@qaccess.net> wrote in message news:TAKr6.57363
oooieoo
Terriers came in the different sizes. Pretty cool. The ones I know are
probably toys, although maybe one would be the mini size. Your Buzzbee
sounds terrific! I'd love to see a picture of him what that grin you
describe.
oooieoo
==================
RPM1 <rpm1de...@frontiernet.net> wrote in message
news:98qbpq$10kq$1...@node17.cwnet.frontiernet.net...
wolfracing
of others. On the Purina site the only dogs they matched out of 50 that I
have ever owned were beagle (as a kid) and OES. Either I made a mistake or
the surveys aren't really accurate. Most of my dogs over the years were
from the herding group, most of the matches were not. Fun, though, but I
won't trade what I have for what I "should" have!!! jav
"Catherine Warrick" <cewa...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:3AAEEE67...@earthlink.net...
ka...@tuatha.sidhe.org
> strains are crossed. The result can be superb or disaster. Reproductive
> physiologists quickly learn which crosses are the most successul, and
> which fail to meet goals.
Here is your key- in crop and livestock production there are limited and
clearly defined goals. Given this, there would be no reason for it not to
work in dogs. In fact it is likely that is has assisted in developing some
breeds. Some herding breeds, like the border collie, come to
mind. In this case, the primary goal was that the dog was a good herder.
However, since the dog IS also a companion animals, there are, because of
of human nature, more and more traits that we look for.
And it's even more complicated: a cross that
> works well at one time of year might not at other times of the year.
> Once a cross has been validated, it enters the arsenal of tools
> available to the scientists managing the production process.
Hybridization programs in farming depend on repeated crosses to the parent
breeds (usually two or three breeds in the program) or simply breeding
crosses yearly.
> Would the offspring of two inbred GSDs of similar genetics be superior
> to that of an outcross?
Perhaps. It depends on what you start with doesn't it.
Or that of a GSD with a different breed? I don't
> know, but suggest that many - perhaps most - of today's 400+ breeds are
> the results of such crosses.
The breeds are a result of some outcrossing to different types, but also
owe most of their characteristics to inbreeding and line breeding to
develop type. (This may be the result of either human intention or
geographic isolation, but the results are the same so far as establishing
a basic type)
Karen
Nancy Holmes or Nelson Ruffin
think of doing the breeding and 2) the people who cross breed dogs for
profit only have poor examples of the breeds and ZERO concept of 'desirable'
traits beyond sales possibilities
Next you have to consider 'so what?' after the first generation there is no
hope for the offspring they are 'dead ends' which is fine in for consumption
poultry but not so hot in companion animals slated to be in a person's home
(for life hopefully).
In what way would you deem 'superior' the crossing of dogs with diverse
heritage backgrounds even if they had healthy parents? One such cross that
sticks in my mind is the veterinarian who is doing AI to inseminate
Neopolitan Mastiffs with Pug semen to get 'apartment sized attack dogs'.
Considering how stubborn pugs are and all their health problems and
considering the aggression levels in the Neos and *their* structure and
health problems I just cannot see this as a good thing.
Many of the crosses are done in toy breeds where the goal is only to produce
cute puppies. Well the goal is attained in the cross but the long term
results (way past fryer age for example) are not so good. Often you end up
with 'giant' toy dogs with ungroomable coats who neither suit the owner's
expectations nor get the care they need to be comfortable.
One line breeds to ensure predictable results in the offspring. Out crossing
in the manner you suggest simply means you once again have a huge list of
unknowns that will be evident in future generations.
Oh BTW all evidence shows that the 'healthy' mutt is not so healthy as they
show the same problems only in larger numbers as their once 'purebred'
ancestors.
I suggest George Padgett's book for further reading.
Nancy
<he...@progenSPLEENysystems.com> wrote in message
news:3AAFA29B...@progenysystems.com...
he...@progenspleenysystems.com
>
> On Fri, 16 Mar 2001 01:54:01 GMT,
> he...@progenSPLEENysystems.com wrote:
>
> >My question was technical rather than business, and has nothing to do
> >with ethics but everything to do with the potential of a managed cross
> >to be superior for one generation. "Potential" means just that -- if
> >someone were to embark on such an experimental program, there would be
> >far more misses than hits.
>
> so which trait would you choose?
The question was whether the principle is valid, and I'm beginning to
believe it is: experimental crossings might produce failures, and might
produce one-generation superdogs.
In conventional species-design, selection pressure is systematically
applied to favor a specific trait. That's true in nature, and in managed
breeding programs as well. That, however, has nothing to do with the
issue.
he...@progenspleenysystems.com
>
> you are missing the fact that 1) no one with dogs of such caliber would
> think of doing the breeding and 2) the people who cross breed dogs for
> profit only have poor examples of the breeds and ZERO concept of 'desirable'
> traits beyond sales possibilities
My question was technical rather than business, and has nothing to do
with ethics but everything to do with the potential of a managed cross
to be superior for one generation. "Potential" means just that -- if
someone were to embark on such an experimental program, there would be
far more misses than hits.
The interesting thing about heterosis is that it works for a single
generation. That is, a superdog produced by breeding two very different
parents would probably not be able to pass on its superior traits to a
subsequent generation.
Henry
shelly
he...@progenSPLEENysystems.com wrote:
>My question was technical rather than business, and has nothing to do
>with ethics but everything to do with the potential of a managed cross
>to be superior for one generation. "Potential" means just that -- if
>someone were to embark on such an experimental program, there would be
>far more misses than hits.
so which trait would you choose?
shelly and elliott & harriet
http://members.home.net/scouvrette/index/
shelly
he...@progenSPLEENysystems.com wrote:
>> so which trait would you choose?
>
>The question was whether the principle is valid,
the validity of the principle becomes irrelevant, when
applied to companion animals, because heterosis only exists
for a specific trait (e.g. higher yield). if it doesn't
exist across a wide range of traits, what's the point? do
we really care if our companion animals are larger, give
more milk, or have a longer "shelf life" if other traits
aren't positively affected as well?
look at it this way, what is it that makes a dog a fantastic
pet and companion? i don't think we can even qualify such a
complex set of physical and behavioral traits. and, if we
can't qualify them, how can we hope to single out *one*
trait for a test of heterosis? so, i ask, which trait would
you single out?
>and I'm beginning to
>believe it is: experimental crossings might produce failures, and might
>produce one-generation superdogs.
and what would be the point? with a well-bred purebred, you
have a *much* better than 50/50 chance of getting a
"superdog."
he...@progenspleenysystems.com
>
> how can we hope to single out *one*
> trait for a test of heterosis? so, i ask, which trait would
> you single out?
We don't have the advantage of 1,000 generations of broiler breeders,
with well-understood crosses. With an isolated experiment, one cannot
single out a trait. Rather, one must do various crosses, experimentally,
and observe the results. It would be a high mortality rate process...
But suppose it were undertaken, and after sufficient trials we noted
that a particular cross consistently produced a favorable result - a
combination of desired traits. The offspring would probably not be
capable of continuing the process. We'd have precisely the situation
that prevails in poultry and some other food animals: breeding stock
from two diverse genetic strains, producing offspring with favorable
traits that last one generation.
And would the result be worth the effort? I dunno. This whole thing
began when I wondered 'aloud' whether the domesticated canine has
sufficient genetic diversity, on the one hand, and whether each breed
(strain) has sufficient genetic "focus," on the other, that "hybrid
vigor" (whatever that means to you, in the context of dog breeding)
would result from some crosses.
I sorta kinda think it would. One of the RPs with which I've worked has
a great background in genetics and works on a daily basis with poultry
and pig geneticists -- I'll turn the question over to him, and relay his
answer.
Henry
RPM1
>Until someone on this newgroup mentioned it, I hadn't realized that Rat
>Terriers came in the different sizes.
Toy - 10# or less
Mini - 10 -18#
Standard - 18 - 28#
Which begs a question, what happens if you have a
10 or 18 pound dog - flip a coin?
Ruth CM
he...@progenspleenysystems.com
>
> Toy - 10# or less
>
> Mini - 10 -18#
>
> Standard - 18 - 28#
>
> Which begs a question, what happens if you have a
> 10 or 18 pound dog - flip a coin?
Naaah!
You can put the dog in the class you desire; either feed or clip the
toenails. :^)
Jerry Howe
and train your dog using non force, non confrontational,
scientific and psychological behavior modification and
conditioning techniques, from the Wits' End Dog Training
Method manual available for free at
http://www.doggydoright.com
"Thus we should beware of clinging to vulgar opinions, and
judge things by reason's way, not by popular say."
-Montaigne-
"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent."
-Salvor Hardin-
"If you cannot convince them, confuse them."
-H.S. Truman-
DRAINING THE SWAMP, AND RELOCATING THE GATORS... j;~)
"CUSTOM WILL RECONCILE PEOPLE TO ANY ATROCITY."
-G.B. Shaw-
"I know that most men, including those at ease with
problems of the greatest complexity, can seldom accept
even the simplest and most obvious truth if it would oblige
them to admit the falsity of conclusions which they have
delighted in explaining to colleagues, proudly taught to
others, and which they have woven, thread by thread, into
the fabric of their lives."
-Leo Tolstoy-
Is it any wonder that the following sig file has generated
more complaints to my personal email than any other
controversial post I have made to date, bar none?:
-CAVEAT-
If you have to do things to your dog to train him, that you
would rather not have to do, then you shouldn't be doing
them. If you have a dog trainer who tells you to jerk your dog
around, choke him, pinch his ears, or twist his toes, shock,
shake, slap, scold, chin cuff, scruff shake, hit, or punish him
in any manner, that corrections are appropriate, that the dog
won't think of you as the punisher, or that corrections are not
harmful, or if they can't train your dog to do what you want,
look for a trainer that knows HOWE.
The Wits' End Dog Training Method manual is provided
compliments of the BIOSOUND Scientific Elves as an
alternative to Doggy Do Right (and Kitty Will Too).
For additional FREE help for any dog or cat
behavior questions, please call or write.
Sincerely,
Jerry Howe,
Director of Training,
Wits' End Dog Training
Director of Research,
BIOSOUND Scientific
1611 24th St
Orlando, FL 32805
Fax: (208)460-4270
Phone: 1-407-425-5092
http://www.doggydoright.com
Nature, to be mastered, must be obeyed.
-Francis Bacon-
There are terrible people who, instead of solving a
problem, bungle it and make it more difficult for all who
come after. Who ever can't hit the nail on the head
should, please, not hit at all.
-Nietzsche-
The abilities to think, rationalize and solve problems
are learned qualities.
The Wits' End Dog Training Method challenges the
learning centers in the dogs brain. These centers, once
challenged, develop and continue to grow to make
him smarter.
The Wits' End Dog Training method capitalizes on
praising split seconds of canine thought, strategy, and
timing, not mindless hours of forced repetition,
constant corrections, and scolding.
-Jerry Howe-
"Robert Dimond" <sailbad_...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:sailbad_d_sinner...@elvis.lerc.nasa.gov...
> Hmmmm there is MUCH food for much thought in Adeles post. First
of all
> in the paragraph directly below my response is the author implying
by
> "explore" that he let the dog roam without maintaining some visual
> contact? If so, then one is asking for trouble.
>
> I for one am vulerable to the trust virus to a point. I have had
the
> privilege of owning three wonderful dogs who had little or no
tendency to
> roam. That isn't to say I let them out and went about my own
business,
> but I trusted them to come when called. I never took eye contact
off of
> them, watching their body language to see if they were "tuning in"
to
> something that would let their instincts to take over their
behavior. If
> the dogs showed signs of "tuning in" I would immediately distract
them
> and call them over. Continued "tuning in" and they would be
leashed.
>
> Adele is right. There is no 100% guarantee for a dog off leash.
Believe
> that statement, and you'll lose your vigilance, and perhaps pay
the
> consequences. But is there 100% guarantee with anything other
than paying
> taxes and dying?
>
> While I might be in the minority in this group, I feel that a dog,
like
> any other animal lives to have a certain degree of freedom. I
truly feel
> that all my dogs have enjoyed a better life by me taking the time
to take
> them to a remote field or park instead of merely exercising them
on a
> leash. It is also a joy to see such noble animals pushing
themselves as
> fast as they want to go or exploring their surroundings in a more
> whimsical fashion than they can do on leash.
>
> I guess it comes down to risk verses reward. If we want to
completely
> eliminate the risk of a losing a dog, then a leash held by an
adult, or a
> concrete dog run are your only alternatives. Much like how I
live my own
> life with activities like boating, biking, skiing and eating high
fat
> foods, I trade a small degree of risk for living a happier life on
my
> terms. Yes even with my constant vigilance there is some risk
that I will
> lose an animal, should that happen I will mourn. But I will take
at least
> some solace knowing that animals spirit was allowed to soar during
its
> tenure on earth.
>
> I'm not sure there is a right or wrong to this issue, merely ones
philosophy.
>
> Bob Dimond
>
>
> >
> > Every morning for seven years my dog bounced around off lead
exploring.
> > Every morning for seven years he came back when he was called.
He was
> > perfectly obedience trained, and I thought, perfectly
trustworthy. He died
> > fourteen hours after being hit by a car. Please do not risk your
friend and
> > your heart. Save the trust for things that don't matter. Please
read this
> > every year on your puppy's birthday, lest we forget.
> >
> > Published, 1988, in Canine
> >
> > Concepts and Community Animal Control Magazine
> >
> > I was about to recommend the highly intelligent Brittany, known
as wonderful
> > watch (not guard) dogs but for two things... they're no couch
potatoes and
> > have been known to make Border Collies look lazy, and the second
reason is
> > that you've been lucky so far, and luck eventually runs out! I
don't want
> > it to be with a Brittany. By the way, I am a former
breeder/shower of Irish
> > wolfhounds and Chow Chows with over 30 years experience with
canines who
> > KNOWS better - there's no such thing as 100% reliable off
leash - I repeat,
> > you were lucky, and I am grateful and happy for you and most
especially for
> > your dogs. This type of complacency though could be a death
sentence for
> > future dogs; please, keep your dog safe and leashed.
> >
> >
> > Every dog we've ever had was trained off-leash, with 100%
reliable
> > > response to voice and hand signals. We'd like a dog that is
similarly
> > > reliable and unlikely to run, but off-leash perfection is
unlikely
> > > unless the dog was trained that way since day one.
> >
cano...@nospam.com
used was to describe mules. Unlike breeding 2 canines of different breeds,
the mule is the product of two genetically similar, but different, species; a
male ass (that is the correct scientific term for burro or donkey)or jack and
a mare horse. It is described as vigorous because it displays the
characteristics that enable it to be hardier, live better on somewhat lower
quality feed, than horses require, perform well as a work animal, and live
and work longer than most horses. Many folks also feel, myself included, that
they are smarter, or at least a different kind of smart than the horse. (Can
often outsmart the owner, and training techniques that will work with horses
sometimes backfire, or don't work at all, with mules) It is also larger,
generally, than the donkey side of its heritage. Mules are also
sterile(though I have heard of 1 or 2 cases of nonsterile mules,unconfirmed.)
Interestingly the opposite cross or Stud horse to a female donkey,called a
hennie or hinny, which is also a hybrid, history has not judged so kindly.
This cross is usually smaller than the mule as it is born of the usually
(though not always) smaller jenny, female ass. They are said to neigh like
horses and be sweet tempered, though not as "hardy" as mules. I guess I just
want to say that hardiness and vigor and good traits are judgement calls. I
do not feel the term "hybrid vigor" really applies to a cross breed dogs.
Dogs are all the same species. Cross breeding may widen the genetic pool a
bit, but it does not create a hybrid.
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