De-clawing???
hekno...@hotmail.com
what is the procedure? Anyone have some experiance with this?
Thanks,
Rich.
Jessica E. Ring
hekno...@hotmail.com wrote:
My advice is to research this topic as much as possible
before reaching a conclusion. This is a _very_ touchy subject
with a lot of people, so you should expect a lot of heated debate.
I believe that you should educate yourself and take other people's
opinions for what they are.... opinions.
Personally, (and this is just _my_ opinion), I think it is an
unnecessary
procedure that should be avoided if possible. You didn't mention any
health reasons so I am confused as to why the vet would recommend
this over training. Please, I am just asking you to research all
possibilities
before making a decision. Here is a link you might find helpful.
http://www.lisaviolet.com/cathouse/declawlinks.html
best of luck to you.
-jessica-
--
spam filter
remove the NOSPAM when responding
C&M Towle
Declawing is the multiple amputation of your cat's last
joints of her/his toes including the claws. It is a
painful, inhumane, entirely unnecessary surgery which
can have detrimental consequences. Cats come with claws.
They use them to mark and scent areas, they stretch
muscles to extend and contract their claws, they use
their toes and claws to climb and jump, and they use
their claws to defend themselves if necessary. Cats can
be trained not to claw furniture and must be provided
with scratching posts and areas they can scratch and
claw to their heart's content. Many people trim their
cats' nails (have an experienced person show you how).
Please inform yourself about the surgery and about the
various training options.
The Deja News web site http://www.dejanews.com archives
newsgroup posts. You can do a search under "declawing"
and you will get lots of information. It is a very
emotional issue for many so you will also read a lot of
inflammatory stuff. Just sift through it and you will
learn a lot. Also do a search under "Detering Scratching
Ideas" (the first word is misspelt, so type it as is)
and you'll find tons of very good ideas.
As to your vet - to recommend that a kitten be declawed
for no medical reason without giving your kitten a
chance to be trained is, in my view, unethical as is the
surgery. I would go to someone else. This vet does not
have your kitten's best interest at heart.
Please do not declaw.
Monica
hekno...@hotmail.com wrote in message
<3633548...@netnews.worldnet.att.net>...
Apryl N Paris
>Our vet has recommended de-clawing our new kitten. What is this and
>what is the procedure? Anyone have some experiance with this?
Declawing is the removal of the tips of the paws with the claws.
It's often recommended, but seldom recommended for all four paws (cats
use the rear *claws* to scratch with.)
There are several methods that are used to do this.
If you do get it done, you'll need to have alternative litter to
regular sandy type litter, which can get caught in the newly opened
areas.
When some claws are removed, the vet will leave in stiches that
dissolved on their own after about a month. Some procedures don't even
mean you'll see stitches when the cat gets home
But as others have mentioned, you should research this fully before
you have anything done. Surgery, for any living creature, can be
dangerous.
Apryl
Who hopes this information was at least a little useful.
Remove the NO SPAM from my return e-dress
And then DON'T SPAM!
Odette Brown
(hekno...@hotmail.com) writes:
> Our vet has recommended de-clawing our new kitten. What is this and
> what is the procedure? Anyone have some experiance with this?
>
> Rich.
GET ANOTHER VET AT ONCE!
ob.
--
**** Odette Brown ** I love Cats *****
*** La Belle Province ** Quebec ** CANADA ***
************** My home page at **************
http://www.igs.net/~rathey/odette1.htm
Michael R. McKinney
Rich,
About five years ago, I came to the Net with that very question, after
adopting a diminuitive little cat from a shelter. I named my cat Chessie
-- she was my first cat -- and I assumed that de-clawing her was a
normal part of cat ownership.
Thankfully, I looked into this first.
I learned that de-clawing is really a euphamistic term for amputation.
If you look at one of your hands, imagine it is a paw on your cat. Your
fingernails are like your cat's claws, and your fingers like your cat's
toes.
Do NOT assume de-clawing is the equivalent of removing your fingernails.
It is not. It is the amputation of the front part of all of your fingers
at the first knuckle. So whereas your fingers, at present, have THREE
segments, after declawing they would only have TWO.
Since learning what, exactly, the procedure of de-clawing was all about,
I refused to ever again consider such a procedure for my precious little
Chessie.
FWIW, I now have seven cats, including Chessie. NONE are de-clawed...and
these cats are strictly indoor-only cats.
While many on the Internet will say about how de-clawing is inhumane,
unneccessary, cruel, and potentially dangerous (it removes a cat's
primary defenses as well as its ability to escape danger through
climbing) -- I agree with all of that, of course -- I want to add
something that's not mentioned too often:
It takes away part of the joy of having a cat, too.
Cats use their claws when playing by snatching tossed toy "prey" out of
the air. They use their claws when climbing up approved surfaces (like
sisal-covered scratching poles), and that's a behavior unique to cats
and cat ownership -- how many other housepets can climb up a completely
vertical surface?
But that's the nature of a cat, the beauty of a cat, the joy of having a
cat. That's part of what makes a cat a cat...a cat's retractable claws
are a unique and wonderful feline feature, to be respected and
accomodated (with scratching posts, just as a dog's teeth are with chew
toys)...not removed. To take away a cat's claws takes away part of the
very nature of a cat.
Best wishes with your new kitten. There are many, many people here who
have plenty of experience with preventing unwanted scratching behaviors.
There are some terrific books on the subject. Web sites (such as _Cat
Fancy's_ have online articles that can help....
Please consider this decision very carefully, please understand what the
procedure entails, and please look into all of the humane and no-risk
alternatives: scratching posts, and/or keeping your kitten's nails
trimmed (I do this with all of my cats' front claws). Your cat will
thank you. :)
Michael R. McKinney
-- mrmc...@kiski.net
-- mrmck...@aol.com
...in memory of Mossy (8/9/95 -- 10/1/98)
Bob Avery H.......
> Our vet has recommended de-clawing our new kitten. What is this and
> what is the procedure? Anyone have some experiance with this?
> Thanks,
> Rich.
I would get another vet, and not just for a second opinion.
Declawing is the amputation of the first digit of each toe on the cat's
paws--permanent and disfiguring. It will cause kitty to become more
reliant on its teeth, hence turning it into a biter. It can never be
safe outdoors.
Two alternatives exist.
One is the use of SoftPaws, which are soft plastic caps that are glued
on over each claw. They have to be replaced periodically.
The other is called extensor tendonotomy, which is a much simple
surgical procedure, heals faster, and is not disfiguring. A small
incision is made on the underside of each toe, severing the attachment
of its extensor tendon. The cat will no longer be able to extend its
claws, but the paw is otherwise kept intact. You must still trim the
claws periodically, as they will continue to grow normally. This is by
far a more humane method than declawing.
I don't give high marks to any vet who favors declawing over any of
these other methods.
--
Cheers,
BobH
WhiZZkers
two kittens to our house. We already have a pet rabbit.
We have mixed feelings about declawing the cats in general, but I feel that it
might be necessary for the safety of the rabbit. The rabbit is comfortable
playing with declawed cats owned by friends, so I doubt he would expect to be
hit with a set of claws.
Any thoughts?
Wil
Lani D
making a decision based on one vet's recommendation.
And, if your vet has no medical reasoning for giving you
this advice, get rid of the vet before getting rid of the
cat's claws. Not only does s/he not have your pet's best
interests at heart, it seems that his/her eye is on your
wallet.
Just a quick story:
A friend of mine had her cat declawed and lived happily with
the cat for years; no problems. Then one day the cat got
out and never came home. A million things could have
happened to that cat, but knowing that her baby was loose
without any ability to defend herself made my friend so
upset. She's sworn never to declaw another cat.
Best of luck in making the best decision for you and your
family!
:) Lani
Bob Avery H.......
> Our vet has recommended de-clawing our new kitten. What is this and
> what is the procedure? Anyone have some experiance with this?
> Thanks,
> Rich.
Hi Rich,
I am surprised and disappointed by your Vet's callous recommendation.
Ask if he would perform extensor tendonotomy instead of declawing. If he
won't, then find another vet. This one does not have the animal's
welfare as his prime concern--he just wants the bucks for the surgery.
Declawing consists of amputating the first digit of each toe on a
cat's paw. It is painful, inhumane and irreversible. Deprived of its
claws, a cat is no longer safe outdoors as it cannot climb to escape
danger, nor defend itself with its claws. Deprived of claws as a defense
mechanism, many declawed cats revert to the use of their teeth and
become biters.
With tendonotomy, the extensor tendons are severed leaving the paws
intact, but the cat can no longer extend its claws. This heals a lot
faster and is not disfiguring. You still have to trim the cat's claws as
they will continue to grow.
Please give this matter thorough consideration. If you make the wrong
choice, there is no going back.
--
Cheers,
BobH
"The smallest feline is a masterpiece." -- Leonardo da Vinci
Bob Avery H.......
Did you know that rabbits have non-retractible claws?
If you are so concerned for the bunny's safety, consider extensor
tendonotomy rather than declawing. It is not disfiguring and heals
faster. Kitty just won't be able to extend its claws. You WILL have to
keep them trimmed, however.
In case you are unaware, declawing is done by amputating the first digit
of each toe on the cat's paws. This is permanent and inhumane, and can
turn a cat into a biter since it can no longer use claws to defend
itself. It is also unsafe for the declawed cat to let it outdoors,as it
cannot climb to escape danger.
In reality, the kittens and the rabbit will probably get along
fabulously, as rabbits are ordinarily gentle creatures. Kittens have to
be taught to kill prey--they learn it from their Mother in nature.
Your concerns are hopefully unfounded.
--
Cheers,
BobH
"The Information Highway is strewn with roadkill--be careful where you
step."
C&M Towle
an acceptable surgery and as a humane option - one of
two!? Tendonectomy is the deliberate severing of
multiple tendons making the last joints of the toes as
well as the claws useless. How frustrating that must be
for the cat. This is not a humane alternative. The
motivation is the same as for amputation - it is an
inhumane, unnecessary, painful surgery of convenience
which deprives the cat of the pleasures as well as the
necessities of scratching. By the way, what you wrote
below re amputations is just as true about
tendonectomies since the last joints and claws can't be
used after the connective tendons are severed.
To state that there are two alternatives (Soft Paws and
tendonectomy) as you did in your previous post in this
thread is disingenuous. There are tons of humane
non-surgical alternatives. They are a combination of
training, nail clipping, and providing an environment
where cats and humans can live in harmony as is done in
hundreds of thousands of homes world-wide. Why on earth
would a vet recommend mutilating a 6-week-old kitten?
I'd run from him/her as fast as I could.
Monica
Bob Avery H....... wrote in message
<36336E...@prodigy.net>...
>hekno...@hotmail.com wrote:
>> Our vet has recommended de-clawing our new kitten.
What is this and
>> what is the procedure? Anyone have some experiance
with this?
>> Thanks,
>> Rich.
>======
>Hi Rich,
> I am surprised and disappointed by your Vet's callous
recommendation.
>Ask if he would perform extensor tendonotomy instead of
declawing. If he
>won't, then find another vet. This one does not have
the animal's
>welfare as his prime concern--he just wants the bucks
for the surgery.
> Declawing consists of amputating the first digit of
each toe on a
>cat's paw. It is painful, inhumane and irreversible. >
Bob Avery H.......
>
> Why do you continue to advocate extensor tendonotomy as
> an acceptable surgery and as a humane option - one of
> two!? Tendonectomy is the deliberate severing of
> multiple tendons making the last joints of the toes as
> well as the claws useless. How frustrating that must be
> for the cat. This is not a humane alternative. The
> motivation is the same as for amputation - it is an
> inhumane, unnecessary, painful surgery of convenience
> which deprives the cat of the pleasures as well as the
> necessities of scratching. By the way, what you wrote
> below re amputations is just as true about
> tendonectomies since the last joints and claws can't be
> used after the connective tendons are severed.
>
> To state that there are two alternatives (Soft Paws and
> tendonectomy) as you did in your previous post in this
> thread is disingenuous. There are tons of humane
> non-surgical alternatives. They are a combination of
> training, nail clipping, and providing an environment
> where cats and humans can live in harmony as is done in
> hundreds of thousands of homes world-wide. Why on earth
> would a vet recommend mutilating a 6-week-old kitten?
> I'd run from him/her as fast as I could.
>
> Monica
Hi Monica,
I first became aware of the tendon alternative in an article written
by Margaret Reister, DVM, which appeared in Cat Fancy Magazine earlier
this year. Dr. Reister abhors declawing and offered two viable
alternatives, one of which was extensor tendonotomy. Note "extensor".
Only the extensor tendon which extends the clae is severed--function of
the first digit itself is apparently unaltered.
When I post the information about that operation, it is as an
alternative to declawing, and I post it in hope that the person
considering declawing his cat will take the lesser of two evils. I would
prefer that they leave the cat intact.
I am apalled by people who blindly advocate declawing to save a
precious piece of inanimate furniture. Why do they bother getting cats
in the first place, if they are unable to accept what is feline natural
behaviour? Cats don't scratch things to be vicious, they are exercising
a natural urge to mark, or stretch, or remove old claw sheathes. My cats
use a sisal rope-wrapped scratching post or the outer wall of their
kitty condo when the urge comes upon them. They will travel the entire
length of our home to get to either of those to scratch. I am delighted
by this, but if they erred, I would never consider having them declawed
or otherwise. I have accepted them for what they are and live with it. A
pity that there are some folks out there who cannot make or live up to a
commitment.
--
Cheers,
BobH
"Knowledge is Power--refusal to share knowledge is an abuse of power."
o...@gci-net.com
>Our vet has recommended de-clawing our new kitten. What is this and
>what is the procedure? Anyone have some experiance with this?
>
>Thanks,
>Rich.
First, declawing is NOT something that needs to be done routinely to
cats. It is major surgery and can usually be avoided with proper
training, by providing proper scratching posts, and regularly trimming
claws (which takes about 3 minutes after you've done it a few times).
Second, get a new vet. Any vet that suggestions "pre-emptive"
declawing routinely to new cat owners is acting out of either
ignorance or greed. If the latter, this mean his/her medical judgment
is clouded by financial concerns. In either case, not a good omen.
I'm sure others here will give you pointers to web sites with more
details. To me, declawing is a last resort procedure to avoid having
to abandon the cat.
o...@gci-net.com
<cas...@prodigy.net> wrote:
>hekno...@hotmail.com wrote:
>> Our vet has recommended de-clawing our new kitten. What is this and
>> what is the procedure? Anyone have some experiance with this?
>> Thanks,
>> Rich.
>===============
>I would get another vet, and not just for a second opinion.
>Declawing is the amputation of the first digit of each toe on the cat's
>paws--permanent and disfiguring. It will cause kitty to become more
>reliant on its teeth, hence turning it into a biter. It can never be
>safe outdoors.
There is no evidence for this (the biting) and there is research that
shows it not to be true. There are many arguments you can make against
declawing, but this isn't one of them.
C&M Towle
with rabbits and cats. Many do it without resorting to
amputating their cats. If after doing thorough research
you decide that your bunny's safety doesn't allow you
keep clawed cats in the house, do the right thing and
don't get cats. However, if you do thorough research and
realize how many people do happily have bunnies and
fully clawed cats under one roof, just get all the info
you can re training them to play safely, claw clipping
etc. Since you don't have the kittens yet, it would be
unconscionable to put them through the unnecessary,
painful surgery. Another alternative is to adopt already
declawed cats - they need homes too.
Monica
WhiZZkers wrote in message
<19981025114523...@ng77.aol.com>...
Wendy Lick
wrote:
>Declawing a cat is like having your fingernails removed.
>
>The ONLY reason people do it is to protect their precious furniture (gag!).
>If your furniture is more important than the cat,
>
Actually, some people do it to protect their children from being
scratched. I think this is an even stupider reason, since if the cat
can't defend himself from the kid when mishandled, how will the kid
ever learn how to handle the cat properly? My mom figured if we got
scratched by our cat, we probably deserved it and we'd learn how to
treat her better. It worked -- all of us know how to handle a cat
properly.
Wendy. owned by Spook and Grizabella
marfaw
>what is the procedure? Anyone have some experiance with this?
>
>Thanks,
>Rich.
Rich,
Looks like you're getting plenty of advise and philosophy so I'll just
say get plenty off scratching posts, perferably with a tight weave since
cats seem to favor them. Put one on each level of your house if you have
more than one level and show your cat how to use them and keep it
up until they do. This well make declawing unneccessary. We've had
two pairs of cats and had no trouble at all with scratching problems.
Mark Fawcett
Bob Avery H.......
>
> On Sun, 25 Oct 1998 06:44:09 GMT, the...@san.rr.com (Bud Jamison)
> wrote:
>
> >Declawing a cat is like having your fingernails removed.
HI Wendy,
Not quite! Declawing is like having your FINGERTIPS removed.
--
Nanaki
: On 25 Oct 1998 03:50:26 GMT, hekno...@hotmail.com wrote:
:>Our vet has recommended de-clawing our new kitten. What is this and
:>what is the procedure? Anyone have some experiance with this?
: Your Vet is an IDIOT!
Or could be trying to get the money from the surgery. I wonder what made
the vet recomend this anyways (well, I might have just hit the nail on
the head)? I can't think of a health reason to do so.
Tigress
--
"Reality continues to ruin my life." ... Calvin (of Calvin and Hobbes)
Lover of all that is Lamborghini, defender of Porsches:
|\ _,,,---,,_ Tigress
/,`.-'`' -. ;-;;,_ http://havoc.gtf.gatech.edu/tigress
|,4- ) )-,_..;\ ( `'-' tig...@havoc.gtf.gatech.edu
'---''(_/--' `-'\_) Cat drawn by Felix Lee
Nanaki
: scratched. I think this is an even stupider reason, since if the cat
: can't defend himself from the kid when mishandled, how will the kid
: ever learn how to handle the cat properly? My mom figured if we got
*nod* Cats need protection from kids, and besides, a kid can handle one
little scratch.
Maryrose Lockerbie
While we're on the subject of training cats not claw (an extension of the
declawing topic) I thought I'd ask a question. First of all, I'd never ever
ever even consider declawing my cat, and I'm not even sure if its legal to
do so in New Zealand - certainly no vet I've ever gone to has suggested it.
So, I'm patiently training my kitty Ivory not to scratch things - she's
actually quite good really, and usually scratches at the carpet rather than
anything vertical, and she's allowed to do this because the carpet is old
and she's not doing anymore damage than say my brother's walking through in
oil covered work boots. But on occassion she does attack the drapes and the
lounge suite, both of which are new, so it's a nono for her to do this. So
far whenever I've caught her at it I've just said in a firm voice "No Ivory,
bad kitty" and she's skulked off.
But I'm also wondering about my use of a water squirter as a reinforcement.
I've used it on her once or twice, in relation to her getting up on the
dining room table (My cat lives under exactly two rules - she's not allowed
to scratch the good stuff . . . . *thud* yikes as a cat lands on my shoulder
. . . sorry for the interuption, I was just pounced hehehe . . and she's not
allowed to plant her big feet or fluffy bottom on the eating surface!) and
it immediately causes her to get down - I did it twice the other night, and
it got to the stage where I was just holding the squirter up and back off
(course she'd forgotten the association by the next day). The reason I'm
asking is that it seems . . well, she doesn't have exactly a violent
reaction to the squirt, but it is a very immediate very physical one - she
doesn't just back off, she immediately hurtles her self away and runs off
and hides, to the extent that she's almost falling off the chair she was on
to get on the table. Naturally I'm a bit worried she'll hurt herself, and I
was just wanting everyone's opinion on this form of discipline. I'm also
having a bit of trouble convincing the rest of the family that if they see
her being naughty they should squirt her too - my mom especially (although
my dad is as bad - he set the cat rules, but won't help me enforce them! And
I'm not always in the room when Ivory does something she shouldn't - in fact
I'd swear she waits till I'm not!).
So, should I continue using the squirter? Should I really impress upon my
family the importance of them squirting her too, as soon as they see her
doing something and not long after the fact? That it's important we're all
consistent and not have me squirting her but the others letting her get away
with it? The other thing is that while I don't want her scratching the sofa,
I don't want to discourage her from sleeping on it which she is allowed to
do. Could this be a problem is I continue squirting her? I don't think the
scratching is going to be a major problem . . especially when I buy her a
scratch post (I'd been putting it off because my sister promised to send me
a new one she has, but it's been four weeks and she now says I can collect
it when I visit her in another month and that's just not fair on kitty!)
Mere <and Ivory, batting the pens around the desk just as if she hadn't
gotten outside this morning and gone missing for three hours while her
cat-mommy had a heart attack and wandered the neighbourhood forlornly
shaking the cat biscuit bag>
Apryl N Paris
<cas...@prodigy.net> wrote:
>WhiZZkers wrote:
>>
>> At the risk of adding fuel to the fire, let me ask this... We're about to add
>> two kittens to our house. We already have a pet rabbit.
>>
>> We have mixed feelings about declawing the cats in general, but I feel that it
>> might be necessary for the safety of the rabbit. The rabbit is comfortable
>> playing with declawed cats owned by friends, so I doubt he would expect to be
>> hit with a set of claws.
>>
>> Any thoughts?
>>
>> Wil
>=============
>Did you know that rabbits have non-retractible claws?
>If you are so concerned for the bunny's safety, consider extensor
>tendonotomy rather than declawing. It is not disfiguring and heals
>faster. Kitty just won't be able to extend its claws. You WILL have to
>keep them trimmed, however.
This sounds like it's just an exercise in futility to me.
I've heard this mentioned before, but what good does it do to let the
cat keep flesh that's useless.. and still requires care. That's like
severing a nerve to the hand, so you can't open and close your hand.
It's just there
... I'm aware this is a relatively newer procedure. I haven't seen a
lot of information on this.
While I'm aware that a lot of people see the amputation of the tips of
the paw as inhumane.. these same people don't see this as
inhumane..and I'm confused.
>In case you are unaware, declawing is done by amputating the first digit
>of each toe on the cat's paws. This is permanent and inhumane, and can
>turn a cat into a biter since it can no longer use claws to defend
>itself. It is also unsafe for the declawed cat to let it outdoors,as it
>cannot climb to escape danger.
True.. but not true. It's BETTER for the declawed to be indoors. But
yes, declawed CAN climb and they can throw things with their paws.
>In reality, the kittens and the rabbit will probably get along
>fabulously, as rabbits are ordinarily gentle creatures. Kittens have to
>be taught to kill prey--they learn it from their Mother in nature.
>Your concerns are hopefully unfounded.
I have a neighbor/friend who has kept cats and rabbits together. She
is vehemently against declawing, so I know her cats still have their
claws. Her rabbits, however, were kept in the cage most of the time. I
dont think one was left alone with the other much.
But then again, it's hard to keep up. She had four cats, two dogs,
fishs, and a bird. I think there were some other animals in there
along with her, her husband, and her two kids.
Apryl
Who often thinks of her as Dr. Doolittle
o...@gci-net.com
<cas...@prodigy.net> wrote:
>Wendy Lick wrote:
>>
>> On Sun, 25 Oct 1998 06:44:09 GMT, the...@san.rr.com (Bud Jamison)
>> wrote:
>>
>> >Declawing a cat is like having your fingernails removed.
>=============
>HI Wendy,
>Not quite! Declawing is like having your FINGERTIPS removed.
Actually, it's not like either in a functional sense.
Steve Sheldon
IN a thread about the cutting of tendons...
>While I'm aware that a lot of people see the amputation of the tips of
>the paw as inhumane.. these same people don't see this as
>inhumane..and I'm confused.
I'm a bit further confused. How exactly is declawing inhumane and yet
spaying and neutering is not?
robert a moeser
you've re-ignited the firestorm! in case you are still thinking about this,
i have only one thing to say:
declawing a kitten or cat before anyone has had any problems with his claws
and before anyone has tried to properly train him is like having your
teenagers peremptorily sterilised because they might get (or get someone)
pregnant.
think about it first. if you think about it long enough and learn what you
really need to about cats and their claws and this operation, you won't do it.
-- rob
Nanaki
: I'm a bit further confused. How exactly is declawing inhumane and yet
: spaying and neutering is not?
Spaying and neutering is inhumane but it is almost a necessary evil if you
don't want to have a ton of unwanted cats around. It is more humane to
give your cat that one little surgery then end up with unwanted kittens
who have to struggle to survive. Granted you may find a home for them, but
with so many kittens around a lot of people end up either abandoning them
(*grrrrrr*) or sending them to the humane society (I think like 80% end up
having to be put to sleep).
yngver
ta...@dontusethissprynet.com (Wendy Lick) writes:
> Actually, some people do it to protect their children from being
> scratched. I think this is an even stupider reason, since if the cat
> can't defend himself from the kid when mishandled, how will the kid
> ever learn how to handle the cat properly? My mom figured if we got
> scratched by our cat, we probably deserved it and we'd learn how to
> treat her better. It worked -- all of us know how to handle a cat
> properly.
I agree. Declawing is a relatively recent procedure, and millions of
children co-existed with clawed cats before declawing became popular.
If a child pulls the cat's tail and gets scratched, well, that's a
great lesson in realizing that other creatures have feelings too. I
grew up on a farm and we always had about a dozen cats (because in the
country, city people would come out and just drop unwanted cats on the
side of the road, especially pregnant cats, figuring they could live in
someone's barn). I don't recall that either my sister or I ever got
scratched by a cat, and if we had, my mother most certainly would have
said that we deserved it for aggravating the cat.
-yngver
(to reply, change initial "i" to "y")
TheCentralSc...@pobox.com
>ap...@mail-me.com (Apryl N Paris) writes:
>
>IN a thread about the cutting of tendons...
>>While I'm aware that a lot of people see the amputation of the tips of
>>the paw as inhumane.. these same people don't see this as
>>inhumane..and I'm confused.
>
>
>spaying and neutering is not?
Spaying and neutering do not involve amputation. They do not leave a cat
unable to defend itself outside.
I took in a declawed abandoned kitty last year. He has a nasty tendancy
of biting people (usually in the face), no doubt as a result of being
declawed.
DeeJay
Steve Sheldon wrote:
>
> I'm a bit further confused. How exactly is declawing inhumane and yet
> spaying and neutering is not?
Go to a shelter. Look at all of the unwanted cats and dogs, kittens and
puppies. Many of which will end up euthanized. Is that humane?
Spaying and neutering prevents unwanted deaths. Spaying and neutering
prevents health problems. But I have read many stories where declawing
causes physical problems in the cats at a later time. Besides, I've never
seen one of my male cats walking on his non existant testicles, where as I
see them walking on their paws all the time.
Think about why spaying and neutering is done. If someone has a problem
with me thinking that declawing sucks and won't ever do it, but I have no
problem at all with spaying and neutering, that's their problem, not mine.
I have no qualms about spaying and neutering, none at all. I would rather
spay and neuter, than see cats laying dead at the side of the road. Or in
cages in the hot sun, in front of pet stores because Mrs Rover or Mr.
Blackie, had an accident. Yeah, an accident of irresponsible owners.
Sorry, but the spay/neuter - declaw comparison isn't a good one.
In humans, women and men both take birth control to prevent unwanted
children. But you don't see too many of them amputating parts of their
fingers and toes because their nails are a bother.
lisaviolet
--
go to my website to get my real email address
****************************
visit the best little cathouse in cyberspace
<http://www.lisaviolet.com>
o...@gci-net.com
wrote:
>hi Rich!
>
>you've re-ignited the firestorm! in case you are still thinking about this,
>i have only one thing to say:
>
>declawing a kitten or cat before anyone has had any problems with his claws
>and before anyone has tried to properly train him is like having your
>teenagers peremptorily sterilised because they might get (or get someone)
>pregnant.
Bad analogy since this is what spaying and neutering is. Are you
suggesting that shouldn't be done either?
yngver
DeeJay <lisav...@spamcatcher.com> writes:
> Steve Sheldon wrote:
>
> >
> > I'm a bit further confused. How exactly is declawing inhumane and yet
> > spaying and neutering is not?
>
> Go to a shelter. Look at all of the unwanted cats and dogs, kittens and
> puppies. Many of which will end up euthanized. Is that humane?
>
> Spaying and neutering prevents unwanted deaths. Spaying and neutering
> prevents health problems. But I have read many stories where declawing
> causes physical problems in the cats at a later time. Besides, I've never
> seen one of my male cats walking on his non existant testicles, where as I
> see them walking on their paws all the time.
>
> Think about why spaying and neutering is done. If someone has a problem
> with me thinking that declawing sucks and won't ever do it, but I have no
> problem at all with spaying and neutering, that's their problem, not mine.
> I have no qualms about spaying and neutering, none at all. I would rather
> spay and neuter, than see cats laying dead at the side of the road. Or in
> cages in the hot sun, in front of pet stores because Mrs Rover or Mr.
> Blackie, had an accident. Yeah, an accident of irresponsible owners.
>
> Sorry, but the spay/neuter - declaw comparison isn't a good one.
>
> In humans, women and men both take birth control to prevent unwanted
> children. But you don't see too many of them amputating parts of their
> fingers and toes because their nails are a bother.
Furthermore, as I've noted before: you can train a cat not to scratch
inappropriately, which means that declawing is really needless surgery.
There are ample alternatives. But you cannot train a cat not to
reproduce.
Spaying and neutering prevent the pain and suffering of legions of
unwanted kittens. Declawing hardly compares; it is merely a convenient
way for owners to avoid having to bother training a cat to use a
scratching post.
o...@gci-net.com
wrote:
>On Mon, 26 Oct 1998 07:14:31 GMT, Steve Sheldon <she...@visi.com> wrote:
>>ap...@mail-me.com (Apryl N Paris) writes:
>>
>>IN a thread about the cutting of tendons...
>>>While I'm aware that a lot of people see the amputation of the tips of
>>>the paw as inhumane.. these same people don't see this as
>>>inhumane..and I'm confused.
>>
>>
>> I'm a bit further confused. How exactly is declawing inhumane and yet
>>spaying and neutering is not?
>
>
>Spaying and neutering do not involve amputation. They do not leave a cat
>unable to defend itself outside.
>
>I took in a declawed abandoned kitty last year. He has a nasty tendancy
>of biting people (usually in the face), no doubt as a result of being
>declawed.
How do you know he wouldn't bite if he had claws?
o...@gci-net.com
<lisav...@spamcatcher.com> wrote:
>
>
>Steve Sheldon wrote:
>
>>
>> I'm a bit further confused. How exactly is declawing inhumane and yet
>> spaying and neutering is not?
>
>Go to a shelter. Look at all of the unwanted cats and dogs, kittens and
>puppies. Many of which will end up euthanized. Is that humane?
>
>Spaying and neutering prevents unwanted deaths. Spaying and neutering
>prevents health problems. But I have read many stories where declawing
>causes physical problems in the cats at a later time. Besides, I've never
>seen one of my male cats walking on his non existant testicles, where as I
>see them walking on their paws all the time.
Cats walk on the pads of the paws which are not effected by declawing.
>
>Think about why spaying and neutering is done. If someone has a problem
>with me thinking that declawing sucks and won't ever do it, but I have no
>problem at all with spaying and neutering, that's their problem, not mine.
>I have no qualms about spaying and neutering, none at all. I would rather
>spay and neuter, than see cats laying dead at the side of the road. Or in
>cages in the hot sun, in front of pet stores because Mrs Rover or Mr.
>Blackie, had an accident. Yeah, an accident of irresponsible owners.
>
>Sorry, but the spay/neuter - declaw comparison isn't a good one.
It is if you want to use the argument that declawing is surgery
without consent, which has been offered here many times. Humans choose
whether to declaw or spay/neuter. There is no scientific evidence of
long term harm from declawing and the freedom of choice argument is
inconsistent. As far as I can see, what distinguishes sterilization
from declawing is an ethical position, which is fine, but let's admit
it instead of using bad analogies and bad science.
>
>In humans, women and men both take birth control to prevent unwanted
>children. But you don't see too many of them amputating parts of their
>fingers and toes because their nails are a bother.
>
But we don't do vasectomies and tubal ligations to cats. Why not? At
least in part for the convenience of the owner. Sterilisation does
produce far more long term behavioral effects in cats than declawing,
but they are ones that we like so we justify them. I strongly support
spaying and neutering and run a NPO that does mostly that. I am
opposed to delwing except as a last resort. But I think we need to be
logical about both these issues and stick to facts.
Steve Sheldon
>Steve Sheldon wrote:
>>
>> I'm a bit further confused. How exactly is declawing inhumane and yet
>> spaying and neutering is not?
>Go to a shelter. Look at all of the unwanted cats and dogs, kittens and
>puppies. Many of which will end up euthanized. Is that humane?
Understandable.
>Think about why spaying and neutering is done. If someone has a problem
>with me thinking that declawing sucks and won't ever do it, but I have no
>problem at all with spaying and neutering, that's their problem, not mine.
So then if someone wants to declaw their cat, and you think it's wrong
that's your problem not theirs. Correct?
>I have no qualms about spaying and neutering, none at all. I would rather
>spay and neuter, than see cats laying dead at the side of the road. Or in
>cages in the hot sun, in front of pet stores because Mrs Rover or Mr.
>Blackie, had an accident. Yeah, an accident of irresponsible owners.
If you have two male cats who are indoors all the time and never introduced
to other cats, they won't get any pregnant. Or two female cats indoors all
the time.
>Sorry, but the spay/neuter - declaw comparison isn't a good one.
They're both surgical operations.
>In humans, women and men both take birth control to prevent unwanted
>children. But you don't see too many of them amputating parts of their
>fingers and toes because their nails are a bother.
I don't see very many men volunteering to be eunuchs. Well except for
those guys out in California following the Hale-Bopp comet by drinking
tainted kool-aid, but they're insignifigant in the scheme of things.
---
Ok, now understand I'm not trying to start a flame war. (Besides it
already started) I'm just asking the question. I don't even currently own
any cats, but am debating obtaining a couple of kittens to live with me in
my new townhouse and am reading this group to try to better understand all
of the issues.
It just seems kind of incredible to me how someone can argue that you
shouldn't declaw a cat because it's like having your fingers removed, and
then in another thread the argument is all pets should be spayed/neutered.
And while imagining my fingers removed, I'm also imaging surgery to remove
sexual organs, and I'm sorry but I find the thought quite tramatic as well.
Steve
yngver
o...@gci-net.com writes:
> >I took in a declawed abandoned kitty last year. He has a nasty tendancy
> >of biting people (usually in the face), no doubt as a result of being
> >declawed.
>
> How do you know he wouldn't bite if he had claws?
He doesn't, but if the cat was abandoned and had no claws, it had to
learn to defend itself somehow, so I'd say the correlation is a good
guess.
I know we've been over this before, but I do know of a few cases in
which cats developed the habit of biting after they were declawed, and
they did not bite prior to losing their claws. I've also noticed that
the owners of these cats often do not attribute the biting to the cat's
being declawed, but some other circumstance (for example: "oh, my
friend's always tickling the cat's belly, that's why he started to bite
people's hands") when those who don't declaw often attribute the cat's
learning to bite to its loss of claws.
o...@gci-net.com
<me...@es.co.nz> wrote:
>
>o...@gci-net.com wrote in message <3634b323...@news.gci-net.com>...
>>On Mon, 26 Oct 1998 09:11:27 -0400, r...@tiac.net (robert a moeser)
>>wrote:
>>
>>>hi Rich!
>>>
>>>you've re-ignited the firestorm! in case you are still thinking about
>this,
>>>i have only one thing to say:
>>>
>>>declawing a kitten or cat before anyone has had any problems with his
>claws
>>>and before anyone has tried to properly train him is like having your
>>>teenagers peremptorily sterilised because they might get (or get someone)
>>>pregnant.
>>
>>Bad analogy since this is what spaying and neutering is. Are you
>>suggesting that shouldn't be done either?
>
>
>
>No, what he's saying is why get something done without a good, generally
>agreed upon reason - declawing has no good reason to be done, and neither
>does sterilising your teenagers. Sterilising your pets however has a valid
>much agreed upon basis. Now, anyone with half a brain could see what he
>meant, and since I'll be kind and assume you have a whole brain, I also have
>to assume that you're just trying to be inflammatory . . . which is totally
>unnecessary, so why don't you quit if for a while? Or is it just in your
>nature to piss people off? Oh, and feel free to let loose all the invective
>you can muster - because firstly, in a battle of the wits, you'll lose, and
>secondly, you are the least of my worries right now and a flame war might
>actually be amusing.
Ok, ye of ower powering intellect. What do you mean by good, generally
agreed upon reason? I guess with your superior powers, you can decide
that universally. Declawing does have good reasons to be done, and
what constitutes a good reason is dependent on the cat and it's
particular circumstances, especially what will happen to the cat
otherwise. As an example, I know a cat that has seizures and would rip
its own face and throat during them. It was declawed to prevent this.
Sterilising (sic) is widely supported and I wasn't questioning that,
although one could argue against it with many of the arguments used
for declawing. I was simply pointing out how BAD the analogy was (and
it still is). You seem to toss words like "valid" and "agreed" around
without any justification.
Let's see now. I point out a bad analogy and that's inflammatory. You
start throwing out personal insults and you're just being rational and
responsive.
I'd be willing to put my half brain up against your whole one if you
could propose a test other than simply hurling insults and unfounded
diatribe.
o...@gci-net.com
>In article <3635b38d...@news.gci-net.com>
>o...@gci-net.com writes:
>
>> >I took in a declawed abandoned kitty last year. He has a nasty tendancy
>> >of biting people (usually in the face), no doubt as a result of being
>> >declawed.
>>
>> How do you know he wouldn't bite if he had claws?
>
>He doesn't, but if the cat was abandoned and had no claws, it had to
>learn to defend itself somehow, so I'd say the correlation is a good
>guess.
This is not correlation, but co-incidence. Correlation is something
that is observed repeatedly over a large sample. It may be "logical"
to humans but isn't something you can conclude anything about.
>I know we've been over this before, but I do know of a few cases in
>which cats developed the habit of biting after they were declawed, and
>they did not bite prior to losing their claws. I've also noticed that
>the owners of these cats often do not attribute the biting to the cat's
>being declawed, but some other circumstance (for example: "oh, my
>friend's always tickling the cat's belly, that's why he started to bite
>people's hands") when those who don't declaw often attribute the cat's
>learning to bite to its loss of claws.
>
And I keep trying to point out that there is no way of knowing if the
declawing had any influence on the biting behavior. The biting may
have started even if the cat had kept it's claws. There just isn't any
way of really telling.There are simply too many other factors involved
that need to be "washed out" by well conducted research. I know lots
of cats that have biting reinforced by inappropriate (if you don't
want them to bite) play with hands. People who declaw and then do this
may get a biter and blame it on declawing. You need to do thorough
examination of lots of cases before you can conclude anything, so you
can eliminate other factors.
o...@gci-net.com
wrote:
No flames, just my opinion. If you get 2 kittens they will play with
each other which I believe lessens potential for damage. If they are
littermates there are even more advantages. You can also train them to
use scratching posts. Get ones that are long enough for them to
stretch and are firmly anchored. Use water squirting or noise to stop
them whem they misbehave. Trimming the claws frequently will reduce
unintentional damage. There is no 100% solution but declawing
generally isn't somethin you need to do. I would only do it as a last
resort to save the home. A cat that goes outdoors should never be
declawed.
Spaying and neutering has benefits, not only in population control and
preventing the suffering and death of unwanted pet cats, but also
other benefits. Sterilized cats fewer health problems including less
cancer of some types. There are also behavior changes that are
beneficial to domestic life. No spraying for one. No heat cycles for
females as another.
>
> It just seems kind of incredible to me how someone can argue that you
>shouldn't declaw a cat because it's like having your fingers removed, and
>then in another thread the argument is all pets should be spayed/neutered.
>And while imagining my fingers removed, I'm also imaging surgery to remove
>sexual organs, and I'm sorry but I find the thought quite tramatic as well.
>
Ignore most of the arguments. Get yourself well informed about the
benefits, both positive and negative. and make a decision that you and
your cats can live with.
>Steve
DeeJay
Steve Sheldon wrote:
> DeeJay <lisav...@spamcatcher.com> writes:
>
> >Steve Sheldon wrote:
>
> >>
> >> I'm a bit further confused. How exactly is declawing inhumane and yet
> >> spaying and neutering is not?
>
> >Go to a shelter. Look at all of the unwanted cats and dogs, kittens and
> >puppies. Many of which will end up euthanized. Is that humane?
>
> Understandable.
>
> >Think about why spaying and neutering is done. If someone has a problem
> >with me thinking that declawing sucks and won't ever do it, but I have no
> >problem at all with spaying and neutering, that's their problem, not mine.
>
> So then if someone wants to declaw their cat, and you think it's wrong
> that's your problem not theirs. Correct?
>
Yes. I guess it is. I do find it kind of telling that the majority of
countries outside of Canada and the US don't do it. Why do you suppose that
is? And why do the majority of breeders have a *no-declaw* clause in their
contracts?
> >I have no qualms about spaying and neutering, none at all. I would rather
> >spay and neuter, than see cats laying dead at the side of the road. Or in
> >cages in the hot sun, in front of pet stores because Mrs Rover or Mr.
> >Blackie, had an accident. Yeah, an accident of irresponsible owners.
>
> If you have two male cats who are indoors all the time and never introduced
> to other cats, they won't get any pregnant. Or two female cats indoors all
> the time.
Ah, but a female cat in heat is in misery. Can you imagine being horny for
weeks on end? With no relief? Cats in heat will do anything they can to find a
willing male companion. And all it takes is one dart outdoors and Fluffy comes
home pregnant. And what will you do then? Sure, I've heard the *she'll NEVER
get outside*. I've read enough escape stories to know that sometimes, never is
easier said than done.
As for the male cats, they don't have to be castrated. Some vets *do* perform
vasectomies. Of course, you will still have the strong urine smell, but if that
doesn't bother you, then it won't be a problem. Oh, and the boys will still try
to get out and find a female that's in heat.
> >Sorry, but the spay/neuter - declaw comparison isn't a good one.
>
> They're both surgical operations.
Yeah, and apples and oranges are both fruit.
>
> >In humans, women and men both take birth control to prevent unwanted
> >children. But you don't see too many of them amputating parts of their
> >fingers and toes because their nails are a bother.
> I don't see very many men volunteering to be eunuchs.
I haven't seen ANYBODY that's amputated their fingers or toes because they were
a bother.
Like I said above, you can get male cats vasectomies. But I don't think you can
find little kitty condoms anywhere. Besides, they don't have any pockets, so
where would they carry them? Of course, some men don't like the idea of
castrating animals because they worry about their own sexuality. I don't think
cats walk around thinking "Hey, I'm tough, I have the biggest set of heuvos on
the block". I really don't think they think like that. But I guess this is a
guy thing.
You know, I've often wondered about stray declawed cats that aren't fixed. These
cats have strong sex drives and no defenses. It just boggles the mind. What are
they doing lose? It never made sense to me. Why declaw a cat and not get it
fixed? One is just so much healthier for the cat than the other. Cats that
have been neutered (an applicable word for both male and female) have a much
less chance of getting cancers, both males and females. Cats that have been
altered before sexual maturity have been found to actually have longer bones
than their unaltered counterparts, being bigger cats.
>
> Ok, now understand I'm not trying to start a flame war. (Besides it
> already started) I'm just asking the question. I don't even currently own
> any cats, but am debating obtaining a couple of kittens to live with me in
> my new townhouse and am reading this group to try to better understand all
> of the issues.
>
> It just seems kind of incredible to me how someone can argue that you
> shouldn't declaw a cat because it's like having your fingers removed, and
> then in another thread the argument is all pets should be spayed/neutered.
> And while imagining my fingers removed, I'm also imaging surgery to remove
> sexual organs, and I'm sorry but I find the thought quite tramatic as well.
>
> Steve
Steve, I have a couple of different sections on my websites. I have one for
spay/neuter information, with great links and the same for declaw. The declawing
site has many great tips on training your cats to not scratch. If you get a
chance, check them out.
<http://www.lisaviolet.com/cathouse/fixed.html>
<http://www.lisaviolet.com/cathouse/declaw.html>
We have 18 cats. We have 2 dogs (we had three, but one was put to sleep last
tuesday when we found out she had cancer, too far gone to stop). All of our
animals are fixed. Twenty of our animals were rescues. One cat, we bought.
She's a purebred Maine Coon and her breeder was extremely disappointed when we
had no urge to let her have kittens. Knowing how many cats already need homes,
we couldn't do that. Besides, it's really hard to give up a cat once you've come
to love him or her. We've trapped neighborhood ferals (wild cats, never had any
human interaction), neutered, aborted/spayed and released them. The cats that
we weren't able to catch are no longer around. The cats that we did catch are
still here, years later.
I don't see where what you have said could be considered a flame, not in my
opinion anyway. It seems more like playing the devil's advocate. So, take the
time to surf and find out more about both cat fixing and cat declawing. Maybe
you'll find out why many of us feel the way we do about it.
good luck,
Elizabeth White
US debate, or am I missing something about cat ownership in the UK?
Both my cats are neutered - I prefer to prevent kittens being born, rather
than have them unwanted. However, declawing is not something which I can
imagine considering. Yes, it is inconvenient to have the cats scratch the
furniture, kill things, and scratch me when they intend only to be
affectionate - but isn't this all part of having a pet?
hekno...@hotmail.com wrote in message
<3633548...@netnews.worldnet.att.net>...
>Our vet has recommended de-clawing our new kitten. What is this and
>what is the procedure? Anyone have some experiance with this?
>
>Thanks,
>Rich.
Nanaki
: what constitutes a good reason is dependent on the cat and it's
: particular circumstances, especially what will happen to the cat
: otherwise. As an example, I know a cat that has seizures and would rip
: its own face and throat during them. It was declawed to prevent this.
Another situation to add in (I am against declawing myself but you do have
to look at circumstance). Would you rather the cat be put to sleep or
given to some one who wants a cat but would only want a clawless cat? I am
sure this comes into factor too. Some people proabbly wouldn't have cats
if they could not declaw them (yes, they are being cruel, but not
horribly) but otherwise woudl provide the cat with a good home. With as
many cats that need homes, which do you think is preferable?
Tigress (playing devil's advocate, and curious as to what people's opinion
on this aspect is)
yngver
"Elizabeth White" <elizabe...@clara.net> writes:
> I live in the UK, and I am surprised by this talk of declawing. Is this a
> US debate, or am I missing something about cat ownership in the UK?
>
> Both my cats are neutered - I prefer to prevent kittens being born, rather
> than have them unwanted. However, declawing is not something which I can
> imagine considering. Yes, it is inconvenient to have the cats scratch the
> furniture, kill things, and scratch me when they intend only to be
> affectionate - but isn't this all part of having a pet?
Yes, routine declawing is chiefly accepted in North America, and
uncommon in Europe and Japan. This is not to say that many cat owners
in North America are vehemently opposed to routine declawing, but the
majority of vetrinarians in the U.S. seem willing to perform it, while
the majority of European vetrinarians apparently condemn it.
Elizabeth B. Naime
> While I'm aware that a lot of people see the amputation of the tips of
> the paw as inhumane.. these same people don't see this as
> inhumane..and I'm confused.
Well, I'm interested in learning more about this, because it does sound
more humane to me. Declawing removes a good part of the "finger" of the
cat... the tendon surgery simply cuts a tendon, so less is removed. So
what's left should be -- could be, as I said I'd like to learn more about
it -- more functional than what's left after a full declaw.
To use your hand analogy, would you rather have a hand that you can't do
fine manipulations with, or would you rather just chop off the whole
thing? The humans I know would generally rather keep the hand even if
they don't retain full use of it. I have no idea what's better for cats,
but, cutting the tendons does sound less invasive and easier on the cat.
Does anyone out there have experience with this surgery, to educate the
rest of us who've never known a detendoned cat?
--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Elizabeth B. Naime * Email may be forwarded and/or posted
els...@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu *
CUR 70 / FUR 212 * * Standard Disclaimers Apply*
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Steve Sheldon
>He doesn't, but if the cat was abandoned and had no claws, it had to
>learn to defend itself somehow, so I'd say the correlation is a good
>guess.
>I know we've been over this before, but I do know of a few cases in
>which cats developed the habit of biting after they were declawed, and
>they did not bite prior to losing their claws. I've also noticed that
>the owners of these cats often do not attribute the biting to the cat's
>being declawed, but some other circumstance (for example: "oh, my
>friend's always tickling the cat's belly, that's why he started to bite
>people's hands") when those who don't declaw often attribute the cat's
>learning to bite to its loss of claws.
How do you explain the cats who started biting and still had claws?
yngver
Nanaki <tig...@havoc.gtf.org> writes:
> Another situation to add in (I am against declawing myself but you do have
> to look at circumstance). Would you rather the cat be put to sleep or
> given to some one who wants a cat but would only want a clawless cat? I am
> sure this comes into factor too. Some people proabbly wouldn't have cats
> if they could not declaw them (yes, they are being cruel, but not
> horribly) but otherwise woudl provide the cat with a good home. With as
> many cats that need homes, which do you think is preferable?
Hmm, I think it is not so cut and dried. Why is it that in countries
where declawing is not done, people do not think "well, I want a cat
but only if I can have its claws removed." In such countries people
accept cats into their homes, claws and all, because declawing them is
unthinkable. IMO this contradicts the argument that declawing should be
permissible because otherwise many cats will not find homes. If
declawing were not a morally acceptable option in the U.S., I do not
believe you would see a vast increase in the number of cats that are
not placed in homes. Some Americans may argue that it is an "either-or"
situation, declaw cats or let them die, but since this is not true in
other countries, it does not have to be true here either. We as a
society (and U.S vets) have allowed people to come to believe that
routine declawing is an acceptable, even desirable procedure. In fact,
in my experience, most people who routinely declaw kittens when they
get them do not even know what the procedure entails nor do they know
that cats can be trained to use a scratching post; they just think
declawing is what you do when you get a cat.
DeeJay
Nanaki wrote:
> In rec.pets.cats.misc o...@gci-net.com elaborated:
> : what constitutes a good reason is dependent on the cat and it's
> : particular circumstances, especially what will happen to the cat
> : otherwise. As an example, I know a cat that has seizures and would rip
> : its own face and throat during them. It was declawed to prevent this.
>
> Another situation to add in (I am against declawing myself but you do have
> to look at circumstance). Would you rather the cat be put to sleep or
> given to some one who wants a cat but would only want a clawless cat? I am
> sure this comes into factor too. Some people proabbly wouldn't have cats
> if they could not declaw them (yes, they are being cruel, but not
> horribly) but otherwise woudl provide the cat with a good home. With as
> many cats that need homes, which do you think is preferable?
>
> Tigress (playing devil's advocate, and curious as to what people's opinion
> on this aspect is)
>
Ah, I long for a perfect world where people understand the responsibilities of
pet ownership and all spay and neuter them and then there would be a bigger
demand than supply and then people who would declaw cats for any reason other
than for the health of the cat, couldn't have cats.
*sigh*
I guess if someone just has to have a declawed cat, then they should check
every darn pound and shelter for miles around and find one that's already been
done. I understand that many are turned in.
C&M Towle
Since it sounds like you read one article in a popular
magazine about tendonectomies and based on that advocate
them as humane alternatives to amputations which you say
you are appalled by, I'd like you to consider the
following information taken from a 1997 veterinary
textbook. From "Small Animal Surgery" by Theresa Welch
Fossum, DVM, MS, PhD (Associate Professor and Chief of
Surgery, Dept. of Small Animal Medicine and Surgery,
College of Veterinary Medicine, Texas A&M University,
College Station, Texas): Under "Deep Digital Flexor
Tendonectomy", it states in part: "The deep digital
flexor tendon inserts on the flexor process of the third
phalanx and is needed to flex the phalanx....Hemorrhage,
infection, and lameness may occur post-operatively.
Tendonectomy of the superficial digital flexor (which
inserts on the proximal aspect of P2 [the second
phalanx] instead of the deep digital flexor results in
an abnormal flat-footed stance. Problems may include
interphalangeal joint immobility, fibrosis, pain, and
claw ingrowth into the digital pads. Cats may require
onychectomy to relieve clinical signs...."
I urge you to look at a current surgical textbook with
explicit anatomy drawings. You will see that the deep
digital flexor tendon (severed in the first technique
above) connects all three phalanges, not just the first
phalanx to the second as many people erroneously
believe. The deliberate severing of multiple tendons is
not minor surgery. It is unnecessary, painful, and
potentially harmful surgery. It does not benefit the
patient and the motivations is as absurd as for digital
amputations.
Surgically depriving a cat from scratching is inhumane
and ethically indefensible, no matter what the procedure
or technique is called, no matter how benign you believe
it to be. It isn't.
Monica
Bob Avery H....... wrote in message
<36337C...@prodigy.net>...
>Hi Monica,
> I first became aware of the tendon alternative in an
article written
>by Margaret Reister, DVM, which appeared in Cat Fancy
Magazine earlier
>this year. Dr. Reister abhors declawing and offered two
viable
>alternatives, one of which was extensor tendonotomy.
Note "extensor".
>Only the extensor tendon which extends the clae is
severed--function of
>the first digit itself is apparently unaltered.
> When I post the information about that operation, it
is as an
>alternative to declawing, and I post it in hope that
the person
>considering declawing his cat will take the lesser of
two evils. I would
>prefer that they leave the cat intact.
> I am apalled by people who blindly advocate declawing
to save a
>precious piece of inanimate furniture. Why do they
bother getting cats
>in the first place, if they are unable to accept what
is feline natural
>behaviour? Cats don't scratch things to be vicious,
they are exercising
>a natural urge to mark, or stretch, or remove old claw
sheathes. My cats
>use a sisal rope-wrapped scratching post or the outer
wall of their
>kitty condo when the urge comes upon them. They will
travel the entire
>length of our home to get to either of those to
scratch. I am delighted
>by this, but if they erred, I would never consider
having them declawed
>or otherwise. I have accepted them for what they are
and live with it. A
>pity that there are some folks out there who cannot
make or live up to a
>commitment.
>--
>Cheers,
>BobH
>"Knowledge is Power--refusal to share knowledge is an
abuse of power."
>C&M Towle wrote:
>>
>> Why do you continue to advocate extensor tendonotomy
as
>> an acceptable surgery and as a humane option - one of
>> two!? Tendonectomy is the deliberate severing of
>> multiple tendons making the last joints of the toes
as
>> well as the claws useless. How frustrating that must
be
>> for the cat. This is not a humane alternative. The
>> motivation is the same as for amputation - it is an
>> inhumane, unnecessary, painful surgery of convenience
>> which deprives the cat of the pleasures as well as
the
>> necessities of scratching. By the way, what you wrote
>> below re amputations is just as true about
>> tendonectomies since the last joints and claws can't
be
>> used after the connective tendons are severed.
>>
>> To state that there are two alternatives (Soft Paws
and
>> tendonectomy) as you did in your previous post in
this
>> thread is disingenuous. There are tons of humane
>> non-surgical alternatives. They are a combination of
>> training, nail clipping, and providing an environment
>> where cats and humans can live in harmony as is done
in
>> hundreds of thousands of homes world-wide. Why on
earth
>> would a vet recommend mutilating a 6-week-old kitten?
>> I'd run from him/her as fast as I could.
>>
>> Monica
>=======
Adrian Andrews
>On Sun, 25 Oct 1998 06:44:09 GMT, the...@san.rr.com (Bud Jamison)
>wrote:
>
>
>>Declawing a cat is like having your fingernails removed.
>>
(gag!).
>>If your furniture is more important than the cat,
>>
>Actually, some people do it to protect their children from being
>scratched. I think this is an even stupider reason, since if the cat
>can't defend himself from the kid when mishandled, how will the kid
>ever learn how to handle the cat properly? My mom figured if we got
>scratched by our cat, we probably deserved it and we'd learn how to
>treat her better. It worked -- all of us know how to handle a cat
>properly.
>
Actually, one of my earliest memories (I was about 2 years old) was
chasing our 4 year old cat round the garden, when she'd had enough of
this 'game' she stopped turned and scratched me. When I told my
mother,(also called Wendy:-)) she said I hope that teaches you a lesson.
I'm glad to say she was right
and the cat never held a grudge, I loved that cat until she died 16
years later.
-------------------------------------------------------
Adrian (Owned by Smokey, Snoopy & Rosie)
This Residence is maintained entirely for the
COMFORT and CONVENIENCE of the CATS
an...@bigfoot.com
DeeJay
Nanaki wrote:
> In rec.pets.cats.misc DeeJay <lisav...@spamcatcher.com> elaborated:
>
> : Ah, I long for a perfect world where people understand the responsibilities of
> : pet ownership and all spay and neuter them and then there would be a bigger
> : demand than supply and then people who would declaw cats for any reason other
> : than for the health of the cat, couldn't have cats.
>
> But unfortunately it is not and if you want to get realistic, yo do have
> to think about these things.
Well, I wonder how they do it in those other countries. You know, the ones where
they *don't* declaw? Ireland, England, New Zealand, Australia, Brazil, Sweden,
just to name a few.
Any ideas?
I think many cats' claws would be saved if vets fully explained what was happening
to the cats. At least that's the impression I get from many people that *have*
declawed and then found out what it was. They won't do it again. I know that it
wouldn't stop all of the declaw surgeries, but I'm sure it would cut down on them.
Trina
this a short time ago ???? please not again,,,,everyone is going to do
what they want to do anyhow ....so why waste time on this ?? but i'm
sure this is going to go on and on and more on..
Trina.......
DeeJay
Trina wrote:
Trina, believe it or not, some people *do* change their minds. I just wish
people didn't think they had to shout and name call. It's a discussion
group, not WWF.
*smile*
Karen Fein
squirt gun. I've used it with my last two cats and it worked brilliantly.
Although, I think this last little terror of mine was actually starting to
enjoy it!
I have had, over the years, 8 cats, 7 of whom were not declawed. I declawed
one, not because I couldn't train him (although the jury's still out on that
one), but because he would paw my eyes as I lay sleeping and I couldn't
break him of the habit. I couldn't lock him out of my bedroom because
that's where the food, etc. is kept. So I had to do the unthinkable.
But declawing as a training tool for run-of-the-mill "don't scratch here"
doesn't cut it.
Do get a scratching post - or two. I've got three of them and my cat runs
like crazy to get to them. He wouldn't think of scratching anywhere else
when these are such fun!
Anyway, back to the subject at hand. By all means squirt that kitty for
getting up on tables, counters, whatever. It doesn't hurt them at all and I
think you'll find it very effective.
Karen - kaf...@netscape.net
Maryrose Lockerbie wrote in message <90936505...@Chaos.es.co.nz>...
>Hi all,
>
>While we're on the subject of training cats not claw (an extension of the
>declawing topic) I thought I'd ask a question. First of all, I'd never ever
>ever even consider declawing my cat, and I'm not even sure if its legal to
>do so in New Zealand - certainly no vet I've ever gone to has suggested it.
>So, I'm patiently training my kitty Ivory not to scratch things - she's
>actually quite good really, and usually scratches at the carpet rather than
>anything vertical, and she's allowed to do this because the carpet is old
>and she's not doing anymore damage than say my brother's walking through in
>oil covered work boots. But on occassion she does attack the drapes and the
>lounge suite, both of which are new, so it's a nono for her to do this. So
>far whenever I've caught her at it I've just said in a firm voice "No
Ivory,
>bad kitty" and she's skulked off.
>
>But I'm also wondering about my use of a water squirter as a reinforcement.
Maryrose Lockerbie
Mere
C&M Towle
cat with claws, don't get a cat. If you haven't done
your homework regarding training, nail clipping,
providing an environment where your cat can be a cat,
you should not have one.
Why not provide a home for an already declawed cat
(there are many and they also need homes) as opposed to
putting another cat through this unnecessary and
inhumane procedure.
As to the fallacious amputate or euthanize dilemma, it
is pure and simple blackmail and that vets succumb to it
is distressing, to put it mildly.
Monica
Nanaki wrote in message
<712pic$417$1...@news-int.gatech.edu>...
>Another situation to add in (I am against declawing
myself but you do have
>to look at circumstance). Would you rather the cat be
put to sleep or
>given to some one who wants a cat but would only want a
clawless cat? I am
>sure this comes into factor too. Some people proabbly
wouldn't have cats
>if they could not declaw them (yes, they are being
cruel, but not
>horribly) but otherwise woudl provide the cat with a
good home. With as
>many cats that need homes, which do you think is
preferable?
>
>Tigress (playing devil's advocate, and curious as to
what people's opinion
>on this aspect is)
>
C&M Towle
not is...
C&M Towle wrote in message ...
o...@gci-net.com
>In article <712pic$417$1...@news-int.gatech.edu>
>Nanaki <tig...@havoc.gtf.org> writes:
>
>> Another situation to add in (I am against declawing myself but you do have
>> to look at circumstance). Would you rather the cat be put to sleep or
>> given to some one who wants a cat but would only want a clawless cat? I am
>> sure this comes into factor too. Some people proabbly wouldn't have cats
>> if they could not declaw them (yes, they are being cruel, but not
>> horribly) but otherwise woudl provide the cat with a good home. With as
>> many cats that need homes, which do you think is preferable?
>
>Hmm, I think it is not so cut and dried. Why is it that in countries
>where declawing is not done, people do not think "well, I want a cat
>but only if I can have its claws removed." In such countries people
>accept cats into their homes, claws and all, because declawing them is
>unthinkable. IMO this contradicts the argument that declawing should be
>permissible because otherwise many cats will not find homes. If
>declawing were not a morally acceptable option in the U.S., I do not
>believe you would see a vast increase in the number of cats that are
>not placed in homes. Some Americans may argue that it is an "either-or"
>situation, declaw cats or let them die, but since this is not true in
>other countries, it does not have to be true here either.
I have no idea what the cat adoption situation would be in countries
where declawing is restricted if it were less restrictive. Has there
been any research done on this. How many more cats would have homes in
these countries if declawing were available under more circumstances.
Unless the research has been done, the experience in these countries
doesn't prove anything. Declawing is not unthinkable in these
countries as witnessed by some Europeans asking here about where to
get declawing done. I don't know of any data about how many more
people in these countries would consider taking in a cat if the
restrictions were different. All of these countries appear to have
homeless cats.
There are clearly cases in the US of cats that will lose their homes
if they keep their claws, which is tantamount to the death of some
cat.
> We as a
>society (and U.S vets) have allowed people to come to believe that
>routine declawing is an acceptable, even desirable procedure. In fact,
>in my experience, most people who routinely declaw kittens when they
>get them do not even know what the procedure entails nor do they know
>that cats can be trained to use a scratching post; they just think
>declawing is what you do when you get a cat.
I don't really know of many people who do routine declawing, though I
am sure there are lots because there are lots of owned cats. I'd guess
it's small percentage. A much larger percentage don't even think about
it. They just get a cute kitten and only think about it when they have
a problem. These are the people we need to get to about training so
declawing without exhausting the alternatives is headed off. They have
become attached to the cat and they see declawing as a way to keep it
and satify the family's (possibly other peoples') requirements.
Maryrose Lockerbie
o...@gci-net.com wrote in message
>Ok, ye of ower powering intellect.
Why thank you. It's so nice when people recognise my omnipotence.
What do you mean by good, generally
>agreed upon reason? I guess with your superior powers, you can decide
>that universally.
Well, yes, I probably could decide that universally if I wanted to, but
since I have an exam in half an hour I'm saving my 'ower powering intellect'
for something slightly more important as you. As for what I mean by good and
generally agreed upon reasons, I'm refering to the general attitudes that I
sense on the cat newsgroups I read - that spaying your cat is a good thing,
letting it have litters and litters of unwanted kittens is a bad thing etc
etc etc.
Declawing does have good reasons to be done, and
>what constitutes a good reason is dependent on the cat and it's
>particular circumstances, especially what will happen to the cat
>otherwise. As an example, I know a cat that has seizures and would rip
>its own face and throat during them. It was declawed to prevent this.
I never said declawing wasn't an appropriate choice in certain cases, but
refering back to the original poster who was asking whether or not it was a
good idea for his kitten to be clawed, it seems to me that in *this*
particular case there was no reason for it to be done - the kitten was
healthy, not particularly destructive apart from normal kitten antics and
not in danger of being put down or abandoned if it wasn't declawed. As you
pointed out - you have to take each case on it's own merits, which I was
doing, but you obviously failed to see that.
>Sterilising (sic)
Actually, you don't need to point that out as an error - I'm a New
Zealander, we use British English here, not American, so it's perfectly okay
for me to use an 's' instead of a 'z'. Not *everybody* lives in the US.
is widely supported and I wasn't questioning that,
>although one could argue against it with many of the arguments used
>for declawing. I was simply pointing out how BAD the analogy was (and
>it still is). You seem to toss words like "valid" and "agreed" around
>without any justification.
Yes, it was a bad analogy, but despite this I immediately saw to the heart
of the matter, and so, presumably, did all those people who read the
article, had no trouble understanding it, and didn't post to the newsgroup
to complain. The point was gotten across, the message was recieved, and that
is the purpose of language - just because it doesn't match you high sense of
aesthetics doesn't mean the analogy wasn't *valid*.
>Let's see now. I point out a bad analogy and that's inflammatory. You
>start throwing out personal insults and you're just being rational and
>responsive.
I never said I was being rational and responsive . . . in fact, why would I
want to be, it's not half as much fun and wouldn't have annoyed you so much.
And yes, you are inflammatory - many of your posts are inflammatory, in my
experience of reading these news groups, and I'm just learning from your
sterling example, sweetie.
>I'd be willing to put my half brain up against your whole one if you
>could propose a test other than simply hurling insults and unfounded
>diatribe.
Awww, spoil all my fun, why don't you? Geez, some people are soooo serious.
Although, speaking of tests, I really should be heading to mine . . .
Renaissance Drama . . "Think not that I am in hell?"
Mere <my ego is bigger than yours . . . I don't think I'm God, I know it>
o...@gci-net.com
<elizabe...@clara.net> wrote:
>I live in the UK, and I am surprised by this talk of declawing. Is this a
>US debate, or am I missing something about cat ownership in the UK?
>
>Both my cats are neutered - I prefer to prevent kittens being born, rather
>than have them unwanted. However, declawing is not something which I can
>imagine considering. Yes, it is inconvenient to have the cats scratch the
>furniture, kill things, and scratch me when they intend only to be
>affectionate - but isn't this all part of having a pet?
>
For people who understand the situation, yes it is. And for every one
of them there are numerous people who don't get it. You can try to
educate them but this is a long haul. If they already have the cat, we
have the situation, if you can't get them to train the cat, of losing
its home or declawing. There isn't any right choice as far as I can
see.
o...@gci-net.com
Naime) wrote:
>In article <3633f11c...@news.mindspring.com>, ap...@mail-me.com (Apryl N Paris) writes:
>
>> While I'm aware that a lot of people see the amputation of the tips of
>> the paw as inhumane.. these same people don't see this as
>> inhumane..and I'm confused.
>
>Well, I'm interested in learning more about this, because it does sound
>more humane to me. Declawing removes a good part of the "finger" of the
>cat... the tendon surgery simply cuts a tendon, so less is removed. So
>what's left should be -- could be, as I said I'd like to learn more about
>it -- more functional than what's left after a full declaw.
There is no loss of important functionality to an indoor cat from
declawing. The cats' 3rd phalanx is not involved in fine manipulation.
>
>To use your hand analogy, would you rather have a hand that you can't do
>fine manipulations with, or would you rather just chop off the whole
>thing? The humans I know would generally rather keep the hand even if
>they don't retain full use of it. I have no idea what's better for cats,
>but, cutting the tendons does sound less invasive and easier on the cat.
The hand analogy is not a good one. Cats have pads which humans do not
have that are the major contact with surfaces. The pads are not
effected by declawing so balance and walking are not effected either.
o...@gci-net.com
<lisav...@spamcatcher.com> wrote:
>
>
>Steve Sheldon wrote:
>
>> DeeJay <lisav...@spamcatcher.com> writes:
>>
>> >Steve Sheldon wrote:
>>
>> >>
>> >> I'm a bit further confused. How exactly is declawing inhumane and yet
>> >> spaying and neutering is not?
>>
>> >Go to a shelter. Look at all of the unwanted cats and dogs, kittens and
>> >puppies. Many of which will end up euthanized. Is that humane?
>>
>> Understandable.
>>
>> >Think about why spaying and neutering is done. If someone has a problem
>> >with me thinking that declawing sucks and won't ever do it, but I have no
>> >problem at all with spaying and neutering, that's their problem, not mine.
>>
>> So then if someone wants to declaw their cat, and you think it's wrong
>> that's your problem not theirs. Correct?
>>
>
>Yes. I guess it is. I do find it kind of telling that the majority of
>countries outside of Canada and the US don't do it. Why do you suppose that
>is? And why do the majority of breeders have a *no-declaw* clause in their
>contracts?
>
I don't think that anything close to a majority of countries have laws
against declawing, even if you include those that have only veterinary
society guidelines rather than actual laws. Most Asian, Latin
American, and African countries likely haven't even thought about it.
I don't know why some countries don't allow it, but I doubt that it
was from a groundswell of popular support. More likely it's the result
of concerned activists lobbying for something that most people don't
even think about. And breeders are the last people I'd go to for
information.
>
>
>> >I have no qualms about spaying and neutering, none at all. I would rather
>> >spay and neuter, than see cats laying dead at the side of the road. Or in
>> >cages in the hot sun, in front of pet stores because Mrs Rover or Mr.
>> >Blackie, had an accident. Yeah, an accident of irresponsible owners.
>>
>> If you have two male cats who are indoors all the time and never introduced
>> to other cats, they won't get any pregnant. Or two female cats indoors all
>> the time.
>
>Ah, but a female cat in heat is in misery. Can you imagine being horny for
>weeks on end? With no relief? Cats in heat will do anything they can to find a
>willing male companion. And all it takes is one dart outdoors and Fluffy comes
>home pregnant. And what will you do then? Sure, I've heard the *she'll NEVER
>get outside*. I've read enough escape stories to know that sometimes, never is
>easier said than done.
>
>As for the male cats, they don't have to be castrated. Some vets *do* perform
>vasectomies. Of course, you will still have the strong urine smell, but if that
>doesn't bother you, then it won't be a problem. Oh, and the boys will still try
>to get out and find a female that's in heat.
>
>> >Sorry, but the spay/neuter - declaw comparison isn't a good one.
>>
>> They're both surgical operations.
>
>Yeah, and apples and oranges are both fruit.
I agree that's a great oversimplification.
>
>>
>> >In humans, women and men both take birth control to prevent unwanted
>> >children. But you don't see too many of them amputating parts of their
>> >fingers and toes because their nails are a bother.
>
>> I don't see very many men volunteering to be eunuchs.
>
>I haven't seen ANYBODY that's amputated their fingers or toes because they were
>a bother.
My son had surgery to remove a finger (actually the bone behind it as
well effectively reducing the hand by one finger) because it was
crushed and healed in a way that interfered with hand function. Never
say never :-)
>
>Like I said above, you can get male cats vasectomies. But I don't think you can
>find little kitty condoms anywhere. Besides, they don't have any pockets, so
>where would they carry them? Of course, some men don't like the idea of
>castrating animals because they worry about their own sexuality. I don't think
>cats walk around thinking "Hey, I'm tough, I have the biggest set of heuvos on
>the block". I really don't think they think like that. But I guess this is a
>guy thing.
What do condoms have to do with vasectomies?
Nanaki
: Ah, I long for a perfect world where people understand the responsibilities of
: pet ownership and all spay and neuter them and then there would be a bigger
: demand than supply and then people who would declaw cats for any reason other
: than for the health of the cat, couldn't have cats.
But unfortunately it is not and if you want to get realistic, yo do have
to think about these things.
: *sigh*
: I guess if someone just has to have a declawed cat, then they should check
: every darn pound and shelter for miles around and find one that's already been
: done. I understand that many are turned in.
But in some point of time that cat had to be declawed.
Until you get all of society to agree that declawing is inhumane, you have
to consider scenarios like this. I personally would rather the cat just
get declawed and still otherwise have a decent life than have it put to
sleep but yes I do think people should not declaw their cat.
Tigress
Nanaki
: Hmm, I think it is not so cut and dried. Why is it that in countries
: where declawing is not done, people do not think "well, I want a cat
But America is not one of those countries and you have to consider this
fact. Yes, it would be nice if it was illegal, but it isn't. And the point
is would you rather the cat be put to sleep because there is no one who
will take it cause they don't want the cat clawed (after all this is what
the law will also do, make the amount of people willing to give a cat a
good home go down, making more cats need to be put to sleep. And yes,
people should spay their cat, and once againt he realism is not everyone
does).
: but only if I can have its claws removed." In such countries people
: accept cats into their homes, claws and all, because declawing them is
: unthinkable. IMO this contradicts the argument that declawing should be
But, it is not in America. And you have a lto of people who probably would
not own a cat if it wasn't declawed. I am soryr, yes, it is a horrible
thing to do, but it is still better to euthanizm if possible. Even in
Europe or whereever I am sure there are people who don't have cats cause
they don't want to deal with t he scratching of the furniture or whatever.
It is not so cut and dry, as you say, because you can't just say all
declawing is bad. Yes, but you have to consider the implications of
forcing people not to declaw.
The thing is this attitude of take care of the cat just like I would have
it leads to people also saying they would rather have the cat put to sleep
than given to some one who would let teh cat roam outdoors (do you believe
in that also?).
Yes, it is all nice and dandy, it is not morally acceptable in other
countries. Unfortunately, it is in the US and you have to consider that.
Sorry, but even idealists have to come down to reality.
: not placed in homes. Some Americans may argue that it is an "either-or"
: situation, declaw cats or let them die, but since this is not true in
That was the hypothetical situation. The situation that comes close to
that is how many people would be willing to have a cat if they could not
declaw them (and in the US I am sorry but I bet you there would be a
number of these). I would rather the cat find a home personally, though
that doesn't mean I won't argue against declawing (ask my mom who had hers
declawed how I reacted).
: society (and U.S vets) have allowed people to come to believe that
: routine declawing is an acceptable, even desirable procedure. In fact,
: in my experience, most people who routinely declaw kittens when they
: get them do not even know what the procedure entails nor do they know
: that cats can be trained to use a scratching post; they just think
: declawing is what you do when you get a cat.
Bull. Some do know exactly what they are doing to their cat. Hell, my mom
(my cats are all clawed) had her cats years before she decided to declaw
them (she just could not stand her furniture getting torn up) and I argued
with her, told her allt he implications, told her it would be even worse
on adult cats, etc, and she still chose to do it. And I am sure even more
callous people would be thinking either their cats get declawed or they
get abandoned or put in shelters. Now, what woudl you say to a scenario
like that where the person basically is either going to declaw their cats
or they are goign to abandon/put in shelter the cat? And dont' tell me
there aren't people out there like that. And don't tell me they shouldn't
have a cat, the scenario is they already do whether they should have had
one or not and most likely taht cat will be put to sleep if the cat
doesn't get declawed.
C&M Towle
potentially harmful surgery. It does not benefit the
patient and the motivations are as absurd as for digital
amputations.
Surgically depriving a cat from scratching is inhumane
C&M Towle
cat with claws, don't get a cat. If you haven't done
your homework regarding training, nail clipping,
providing an environment where your cat can be a cat,
you should not have one.
Why not provide a home for an already declawed cat
(there are many and they also need homes) as opposed to
putting another cat through this unnecessary and
inhumane procedure.
As to the fallacious amputate or euthanize dilemma, it
is pure and simple blackmail and that vets succumb to it
is distressing, to put it mildly.
Monica
Nanaki wrote in message
<712pic$417$1...@news-int.gatech.edu>...
>Another situation to add in (I am against declawing
myself but you do have
>to look at circumstance). Would you rather the cat be
put to sleep or
>given to some one who wants a cat but would only want a
clawless cat? I am
>sure this comes into factor too. Some people proabbly
wouldn't have cats
>if they could not declaw them (yes, they are being
cruel, but not
>horribly) but otherwise woudl provide the cat with a
good home. With as
>many cats that need homes, which do you think is
preferable?
>
>Tigress (playing devil's advocate, and curious as to
what people's opinion
>on this aspect is)
>
C&M Towle
Phiz
<I know a cat that has seizures and would rip
its own face and throat during them. It was declawed to prevent this.>
I am new here. I want to thank you for bringing this into light. My cat
is epileptic and caused immeasurable damage to herself before we had her
declawed. She ripped out two of her own claws when they hooked on
carpeting during a seizure. She did damage to an area just above her eyes
with her claws during the same grand mal seizure. If she had lowered her
paws just a bit, she would be blind now. There ARE reasons for having a
cat declawed. The only humane way to treat the problem was to have her
declawed. I love my cat to death and would NEVER do anything to hurt her.
I am so tired of people looking at me as if I were some kind of demon when
they realize that my cat is declawed.
--
~~~~~~~~~~~
The quality of mercy is not strained. It dropeth as a gentle rain from
heaven and is twice blessed. It blesseth both him that giveth and he that
recieveth.
~Portia~ from 'The Merchant of Venice'
Derek Price
>and ethically indefensible, no matter what the procedure
>or technique is called, no matter how benign you believe
>it to be. It isn't.
>
>Monica
>
Now I feel bad. When my ex-girlfriend took my Master to the doctor to have
him fixed, she also had him declawed. I was out of town at the time (We had
discussed it, but I hadn't said yes). I have noticed Loki doing "odd"
things. He still tries to scratch my walls, carpet, and wife, but I figured
it was nothing serious. Could he be upset? Keep in mind, this was several
years ago.
Derek
C&M Towle
be deprived of the ability to scratch and stretch
muscles s/he previously had. Not only is it an intrinsic
part of cat behaviour which serves many functions
(marking with scent via the pads when scratching,
visually marking, stretching muscles when extending the
claws), it is clearly a pleasurable activity for the
cat. It saddens me that people are willing to amputate
their cats for the sake of sparing furniture when there
are so many humane training options.
Monica
Derek Price wrote in message
<3635c...@sparky2.arc.net>...
>>Surgically depriving a cat from scratching is inhumane
>>and ethically indefensible, no matter what the
procedure
>>or technique is called, no matter how benign you
believe
>>it to be. It isn't.
>>
>>Monica
>>
>
>
DeeJay
Phiz wrote:
> <snip>
> <I know a cat that has seizures and would rip
> its own face and throat during them. It was declawed to prevent this.>
>
> I am new here. I want to thank you for bringing this into light. My cat
> is epileptic and caused immeasurable damage to herself before we had her
> declawed. She ripped out two of her own claws when they hooked on
> carpeting during a seizure. She did damage to an area just above her eyes
> with her claws during the same grand mal seizure. If she had lowered her
> paws just a bit, she would be blind now. There ARE reasons for having a
> cat declawed. The only humane way to treat the problem was to have her
> declawed. I love my cat to death and would NEVER do anything to hurt her.
> I am so tired of people looking at me as if I were some kind of demon when
> they realize that my cat is declawed.
>
>
Finally, somebody with a valid reason to have had the cat declawed. This was a
direct problem to the cat's health.
Thank you for your example.
yngver
she...@visi.com (Steve Sheldon) writes:
> How do you explain the cats who started biting and still had claws?
I don't understand your question. Did anyone here, myself included,
ever say that the only reason cats start to bite is because their claws
are removed?
yngver
o...@gci-net.com writes:
> And breeders are the last people I'd go to for
> information.
Why is that?
The ones I've known have been awfully good at producing perfectly
trained kittens that always use their scratching posts. The fact that
responsible breeders can do this with virtually every cat they breed
demonstrates that routine declawing is entirely needless. Very few cats
cannot be trained to use scratching posts, if the person training the
cat knows how to do it.
Of course, I stress the term "responsible breeders."
Jessica E. Ring
Phiz wrote:
<snip>
> . I love my cat to death and would NEVER do anything to hurt her.
> I am so tired of people looking at me as if I were some kind of demon when
> they realize that my cat is declawed.
>
>
Phiz,
You are not some kind of demon. You were thinking of your cats safety when
you had her declawed. What a lot of us are trying to say is that declawing
for
superficial reasons ( your furniture, etc..) is cruel because it can be
prevented.
Most of us will agree that there are valid medical reasons, such as this one,
for
getting your cat declawed.
I hope she is doing better and wish you both the best.
-jessica-
--
spam filter
remove the NOSPAM when responding
ap...@mail-me.com
you know of a cat who did not adapt well? Do you have any evidence of this
that others can see?
> and to be deprived of the ability to scratch and stretch
> muscles s/he previously had.
Are you saying that if a cat has no claws, it can't stretch?? Wow... You
better tell my cats. They are stretched all over the place.. including their
fore paws.
> Not only is it an intrinsic part of cat behaviour which serves many functions
> (marking with scent via the pads when scratching,
> visually marking, stretching muscles when extending the
> claws),
Yeah... but see, when the claws are removed, and part of the paw is removed
(in this amputation), they leave the paw. This is why even a cat that has
been 'declawed' needs scratching pads and still will leave it's scent on
things (and people for that matter!
> it is clearly a pleasurable activity for the
> cat.
This is true. They do it all the time.
> It saddens me that people are willing to amputate
> their cats for the sake of sparing furniture when there
> are so many humane training options.
But furniture, while the most tangible, and thereby easiest to quote when
giving reasons for having the procedure done, is not the ONLY reason for the
declawing
And while YOU may consider declawing 'inhumane' and 'cruel', others (such as
myself) consider the alternative more 'inhumane' and 'cruel'. In fact, I do
not consider declawing 'inhumane' or 'cruel' at all. But then, this is based
on my own perspective, and my history of living with animals that are
declawed.
But then, you've stated over and over again that the things that you quote in
this post as actual-factual were but opinion
I appreciate your honesty on that matter
Apryl
Who realizes that opinions are something we all are allowed
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
ap...@mail-me.com
els...@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu (Elizabeth B. Naime) wrote:
> Well, I'm interested in learning more about this, because it does sound
> more humane to me. Declawing removes a good part of the "finger" of the
> cat... the tendon surgery simply cuts a tendon, so less is removed. So
> what's left should be -- could be, as I said I'd like to learn more about
> it -- more functional than what's left after a full declaw.
>
> To use your hand analogy, would you rather have a hand that you can't do
> fine manipulations with, or would you rather just chop off the whole
> thing? The humans I know would generally rather keep the hand even if
> they don't retain full use of it.
To answer your question: I would rather not have it there, than to have to
lug it around. Besides, when a cat has the tendons removed, and it, being an
animal, and possibly frightened by sharp things (I'm sure there is still
feeling in that unusable paw), you (the HUMAN) could frighten, or even hurt,
your cat, by accident, of course, when trimming these useless claws.
For that reason, I would rather have a hand with shortened fingers, than a
hand I can't open or close.
Apryl
Who thinks that was a fair question. Hope it was a good answer.
ap...@mail-me.com
TheCentralSc...@pobox.com wrote:
> I took in a declawed abandoned kitty last year. He has a nasty tendancy
> of biting people (usually in the face), no doubt as a result of being
> declawed.
As an amateur cat person: that biting is not the result of declawing
I have three cats (aged 9, 3 and 5 months) who are all declawed. Only the
kitten bites. She was a biter BEFORE the declawing. She bites the other cats,
and me, but none in anger. Its' how she plays.
I have one friend who had a 3 year old cat declawed, this cat does not bite. I
have other friends with declawed cats, NONE bite.
There are others of my friends who have clawed cats, and one has both with and
without claws.
The absence of claws does not, imo, make a feline a biter.
Apryl
Who is going to start biting back if Eeek doesn't stop it!
yngver
DeeJay <lisav...@spamcatcher.com> writes:
> > I am new here. I want to thank you for bringing this into light. My cat
> > is epileptic and caused immeasurable damage to herself before we had her
> > declawed. She ripped out two of her own claws when they hooked on
> > carpeting during a seizure. She did damage to an area just above her eyes
> > with her claws during the same grand mal seizure. If she had lowered her
> > paws just a bit, she would be blind now. There ARE reasons for having a
> > cat declawed. The only humane way to treat the problem was to have her
> > declawed. I love my cat to death and would NEVER do anything to hurt her.
> > I am so tired of people looking at me as if I were some kind of demon when
> > they realize that my cat is declawed.
> >
> >
>
> Finally, somebody with a valid reason to have had the cat declawed. This was a
> direct problem to the cat's health.
>
> Thank you for your example.
I do not think anyone here would not agree that declawing when it has a
medical benefit to the cat is perfectly acceptable. In fact, it is my
understanding that even in countries that do not perform routine
declawing, if the declawing procedure is medically necessary it is
permissible to perform it, and even in the U.S., the vetrinarians who
refuse to perform declawing would certainly make an exception if the
cat's claws were endangering its health. However, as you can imagine,
it is a very rare occasion in which declawing has any health benefit to
the cat.
TheCentralSc...@pobox.com
>In article <BW6Z1.2059$a6.63...@ptah.visi.com>
>she...@visi.com (Steve Sheldon) writes:
>
>> How do you explain the cats who started biting and still had claws?
>
>I don't understand your question. Did anyone here, myself included,
>ever say that the only reason cats start to bite is because their claws
>are removed?
And we're not talking about playfull biting either. Alex, the declawed
kitty I took in as a stray, has a NASTY tendancy of biting people in the
face. Only declawed kitties ever get in that habbit.
o...@gci-net.com
wrote:
>My opinion - cats come with claws. If you don't want a
>cat with claws, don't get a cat. If you haven't done
>your homework regarding training, nail clipping,
>providing an environment where your cat can be a cat,
>you should not have one.
>
>Why not provide a home for an already declawed cat
>(there are many and they also need homes) as opposed to
>putting another cat through this unnecessary and
>inhumane procedure.
Absolutely. If you know you want a declawed cat , this is the
appropriate route. We also (in our shelters) need to make people aware
of the issue so they can know in advance that this is an issue and
determine if a declawed cat would be best for them.
>
>As to the fallacious amputate or euthanize dilemma, it
>is pure and simple blackmail and that vets succumb to it
>is distressing, to put it mildly.
It's not fallacious in the US. We shouldn't be declawing to place cats
but cats that lose their homes end up with some cat dying.
o...@gci-net.com
<me...@es.co.nz> wrote:
>
>o...@gci-net.com wrote in message
>
>>Ok, ye of ower powering intellect.
>
>Why thank you. It's so nice when people recognise my omnipotence.
>
> What do you mean by good, generally
>>agreed upon reason? I guess with your superior powers, you can decide
>>that universally.
>
>Well, yes, I probably could decide that universally if I wanted to, but
>since I have an exam in half an hour I'm saving my 'ower powering intellect'
>for something slightly more important as you. As for what I mean by good and
>generally agreed upon reasons, I'm refering to the general attitudes that I
>sense on the cat newsgroups I read - that spaying your cat is a good thing,
>letting it have litters and litters of unwanted kittens is a bad thing etc
>etc etc.
I see. We have a new source of authority. Not research. Not expert
opinion. The NEWSGROUP!!
>
> Declawing does have good reasons to be done, and
>>what constitutes a good reason is dependent on the cat and it's
>>particular circumstances, especially what will happen to the cat
>>otherwise. As an example, I know a cat that has seizures and would rip
>>its own face and throat during them. It was declawed to prevent this.
>
>
>I never said declawing wasn't an appropriate choice in certain cases, but
>refering back to the original poster who was asking whether or not it was a
>good idea for his kitten to be clawed, it seems to me that in *this*
>particular case there was no reason for it to be done - the kitten was
>healthy, not particularly destructive apart from normal kitten antics and
>not in danger of being put down or abandoned if it wasn't declawed. As you
>pointed out - you have to take each case on it's own merits, which I was
>doing, but you obviously failed to see that.
What you said was "declawing has no good reason to be done" and it was
not qualified in any way.
>
>>Sterilising (sic)
>
>Actually, you don't need to point that out as an error - I'm a New
>Zealander, we use British English here, not American, so it's perfectly okay
>for me to use an 's' instead of a 'z'. Not *everybody* lives in the US.
Thank god for that.
>
>is widely supported and I wasn't questioning that,
>>although one could argue against it with many of the arguments used
>>for declawing. I was simply pointing out how BAD the analogy was (and
>>it still is). You seem to toss words like "valid" and "agreed" around
>>without any justification.
>
>
>Yes, it was a bad analogy, but despite this I immediately saw to the heart
>of the matter, and so, presumably, did all those people who read the
>article, had no trouble understanding it, and didn't post to the newsgroup
>to complain.
How nice of you to presume for everyone else.
>The point was gotten across, the message was recieved, and that
>is the purpose of language - just because it doesn't match you high sense of
>aesthetics doesn't mean the analogy wasn't *valid*.
The analogy completely undermined any point he was attempting to make.
A bad bit of logic discredits the whole argument.
>
>>Let's see now. I point out a bad analogy and that's inflammatory. You
>>start throwing out personal insults and you're just being rational and
>>responsive.
>
>
>I never said I was being rational and responsive . . . in fact, why would I
>want to be, it's not half as much fun and wouldn't have annoyed you so much.
>And yes, you are inflammatory - many of your posts are inflammatory, in my
>experience of reading these news groups, and I'm just learning from your
>sterling example, sweetie.
So you were just being an asshole. Sorry, but I thought you were
actually trying to contribute.
>
>>I'd be willing to put my half brain up against your whole one if you
>>could propose a test other than simply hurling insults and unfounded
>>diatribe.
>
>
>Awww, spoil all my fun, why don't you? Geez, some people are soooo serious.
>Although, speaking of tests, I really should be heading to mine . . .
>Renaissance Drama . . "Think not that I am in hell?"
Renaissance Dram - explains your reasoning skills. You have my
sympathy.
>
>Mere <my ego is bigger than yours . . . I don't think I'm God, I know it>
>
And if you were half as smart as you think you, you'd know you aren't.
o...@gci-net.com
>In rec.pets.cats.misc DeeJay <lisav...@spamcatcher.com> elaborated:
>
>: Ah, I long for a perfect world where people understand the responsibilities of
>: pet ownership and all spay and neuter them and then there would be a bigger
>: demand than supply and then people who would declaw cats for any reason other
>: than for the health of the cat, couldn't have cats.
>
>But unfortunately it is not and if you want to get realistic, yo do have
>to think about these things.
>
>: *sigh*
>: I guess if someone just has to have a declawed cat, then they should check
>: every darn pound and shelter for miles around and find one that's already been
>: done. I understand that many are turned in.
In my experience with several shelters, declawed cats go very quickly
unless they are very old.
o...@gci-net.com
<lisav...@spamcatcher.com> wrote:
>
>
>Nanaki wrote:
>
>> In rec.pets.cats.misc DeeJay <lisav...@spamcatcher.com> elaborated:
>>
>> : Ah, I long for a perfect world where people understand the responsibilities of
>> : pet ownership and all spay and neuter them and then there would be a bigger
>> : demand than supply and then people who would declaw cats for any reason other
>> : than for the health of the cat, couldn't have cats.
>>
>> But unfortunately it is not and if you want to get realistic, yo do have
>> to think about these things.
>
>Well, I wonder how they do it in those other countries. You know, the ones where
>they *don't* declaw? Ireland, England, New Zealand, Australia, Brazil, Sweden,
>just to name a few.
We don't know if the numbers of cats adopted in those countries would
be higher if declawing were less restrictive, do we?
>
>Any ideas?
>
>I think many cats' claws would be saved if vets fully explained what was happening
>to the cats. At least that's the impression I get from many people that *have*
>declawed and then found out what it was. They won't do it again. I know that it
>wouldn't stop all of the declaw surgeries, but I'm sure it would cut down on them.
>
Yes, it would certainly help a lot if vets and shelters were more
forthcoming about the surgery and how to avoid it.
>lisaviolet
o...@gci-net.com
What happens to the "surplus" cats in the countries that don't declaw?
I guess I just don't understand what happens to them. Are they left on
their own? Is there no "surplus"? Is there no euthanization?
C&M Towle
matter what country you are in! A false dilemma reduces
the options to consider to just two, even though that is
not the case. It ia done so that options are not
considered. The fact that people use it as an ultimatum,
doesn't make it a valid argument. It still is blackmail
and dismisses available alternatives. That vets readily
accept it instead of educating, makes them cowards.
Monica
o...@gci-net.com wrote in message
<36361ba2...@news.gci-net.com>...
Steve Sheldon
>In article <BW6Z1.2059$a6.63...@ptah.visi.com>
>she...@visi.com (Steve Sheldon) writes:
>> How do you explain the cats who started biting and still had claws?
>I don't understand your question. Did anyone here, myself included,
>ever say that the only reason cats start to bite is because their claws
>are removed?
So in other words we can't really saw that declawing resorts in biting.
C&M Towle
only as a "last resort" (a nebulous term) and want
clients to try every option possible? Books on surgery
talk about possible consequences, complications etc.,
that older cats should not have the surgery. No such
thing is found about neutering. The post I responded to
mentioned some behavioural issues after declawing.
Others have written about the problems their cats had
after declawing. One humane society I am involved with
took in a cat that walked on its elbows long after being
declawed (the surgery had been done just fine by an
experienced surgeon). Interestingly, I was discussing
this with my vet two days ago. She had just viewed a
videotape in slow motion of cat movements after
declawing and it was apparently obvious how differently
they walk after having their third phalanges removed.
This was not an official study, but a private group of
vets who were interested in cats' gaits.
You clearly still don't understand what is involved in
amputating cats' digits. Since the third (last or
distal) phalanx of the toe is removed with the claw and
connecting ligaments and tendons have to be severed, it
is impossible for the cat to extend or retract
(stretch)its claws and surrounding tissues, simply
because they are no longer there.
The scents in the paw pads are expressed when the cat
claws. Without claws, it can no longer do that.
The rest of your rambling post is confusing and I don't
understand most of it.
Yes, I know you've stated you consider clipping nails
much more cruel and inhumane than amputating. Any
objective ethical panel will find this an absurd
statement.
Monica
ap...@mail-me.com wrote in message
<7154bc$6ag$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
>> it is clearly a pleasurable activity for the
>> cat.
>
Phiz
because Misfit (my epileptic cat) completely lost her sense of balance and
was repeatedly rubbing her head vigorously (headache?). I took her to the
vet (who I don't like personally, but he has always been good to my cats)
and he sent her home. I let it continue yesterday and couldn't stop crying
the whole day because of the changes I saw in her. She usually sleeps with
me and she couldn't even make it up onto the bed on her own. She kept
falling down. Her back legs betrayed her every time she tried to use them.
Her front legs crossed whenever she tried to walk at a normal pace.
Frankly, she looked as if she was drunk. I was so frightened. I called
the vet this morning and insisted that he look at her again. I took her in
and this time he kept her.
I recently had to increase her daily Phenobarbital dose. Her seizures were
increasing in frequency and intensity. I think that her body had adjusted
to the previous level of Pheno. She currently takes 45mg daily. That's a
lot. It has gradually increased over the years. I am hoping that whatever
neurological problem that she is having is related to her Pheno. It's
easily solved. The vet also mentioned the possibility of a stroke. That
disturbs me. I am incredibly upset over the whole thing. I was browsing
the messages in here to see if there were any about neurological issues.
Specifically, posts related to feline strokes. I checked deja news and
didn't see any, but I thought I would browse anyway.
So now, here I am - posting.
I love that cat with all my heart. Even now, as I sit at my computer I
keep expecting her to come into the room and put her front paws up on my
legs for a pet. I just want her home safe and sound. We have been through
an awful lot together.
TheCentralSc...@pobox.com
Nope. All we can really saw is that you're an argumentative troll.
Phiz
tabs that I have been giving my kitty were 30mg tabs - She has been getting
90mg of Pheno a day instead of her usual 45mg. The drugstore made a
huge(!!) mistake. 15mg. tabs look like the 30mg tabs. No WONDER she was
having so many problems!!!! The guys at CVS will be getting our vet bill
for sure.
I am so relieved! Thanks for listening! Methinks I have found a new ng to
peruse!
C&M Towle
Is seeing a neurological specialist a possibility for a
second opinion and possible options? I would want a more
definitive answer than the "possibility" of a stroke.
Also, someone more experienced with seizures in cats may
change the dose if that's related to the recent
problems. I hope things get straightened out soon. You
need some answers from someone who is willing to do some
very thorough checking.
Good luck,
Monica
Phiz wrote in message
<01be01ea$2ad17e20$31fd96d1@default>...
DeeJay
yngver wrote:
Well, it was nice (but sad) to finally read where somebody had a valid reason for
this surgery. I just thought it would be nice to acknowledge this. You know I'm
not a big fan of it.
DeeJay
Steve Sheldon wrote:
> ing...@aol.com (yngver) writes:
>
> >In article <BW6Z1.2059$a6.63...@ptah.visi.com>
> >she...@visi.com (Steve Sheldon) writes:
>
> >> How do you explain the cats who started biting and still had claws?
>
> >I don't understand your question. Did anyone here, myself included,
> >ever say that the only reason cats start to bite is because their claws
> >are removed?
>
> So in other words we can't really saw that declawing resorts in biting.
Well, according to the newsletter put out by Tufts University School of
Veterinary Medicine, "....an aggressive cat cat won't be cured by
declawing. Chances are, the animal will simply switch to its backup
weapons, its teeth."
Not all declawed cats become biters. Not all declawed cats stop using the
litter box, because of the association of pain with the litter box, not the
paws. Not all declawed cats have personality changes. Not all declawed cats
live in fear and terror. Not all declawed cats have physical problems
attributable to the surgery as they age. Not all declawed cats escape their
homes. Not all declawed cats have a botched first job done, and have to have
the claws redone when the claw starts growing back in deformed.
But I've heard enough from others that *have* declawed cats, and *have* had
these problems, to not want to take that chance with my guys.
yngver
o...@gci-net.com writes:
> >As to the fallacious amputate or euthanize dilemma, it
> >is pure and simple blackmail and that vets succumb to it
> >is distressing, to put it mildly.
>
> It's not fallacious in the US. We shouldn't be declawing to place cats
> but cats that lose their homes end up with some cat dying.
True, but it bothers me that this is considered a justification for
declawing. Dogs can do considerable damage with their claws, and end up
losing their homes for it, yet declawing dogs is rarely considered.
People choose to have pets euthanized for all sorts of reasons that I
think many of us find unjustifiable: the dog barks too much, the cat
makes too much noise, the pet sheds too much, the dog chews on things,
the cat isn't affectionate enough, etc. Scratching up furniture is a
result of the owner not training the cat to scratch appropriately, and
many of these other undesirable behaviors are also a result of lack of
training. That people will dump an animal at a shelter or take it to
the vet to be euthanized for the most appallingly callous reasons does
not seem to me to be an entirely acceptable justification for routine
declawing.
rodney
and weighs people's opinion? Don't you value the opinions
of people in this group? Everyone brings an unimaginable
supply of facts and experiences to this group, making it a
fun experience. People who have read studies, volunteered
at shelters, and lived with countless cats all over the WORLD
post here. This is a wonderful forum for discussion. Quite
frankly, we hear more than enough discussion (pros and cons)
on declawing and spaying in this group to make an extremely
educated decision on whether to have it done. We have even
had numerous anatomy lessons on the subjects.
Don't knock this group>^..^< It is an invaluable tool for learning!
<Going back to lurking on this thread:-)
Rodney
Skunky, Harry, Kitty, Blackie, Cali
o...@gci-net.com wrote in message <36371c95...@news.gci-net.com>...
>On Tue, 27 Oct 1998 13:38:31 +1300, "Maryrose Lockerbie"
yngver
o...@gci-net.com writes:
> >Well, I wonder how they do it in those other countries. You know, the ones where
> >they *don't* declaw? Ireland, England, New Zealand, Australia, Brazil, Sweden,
> >just to name a few.
>
> We don't know if the numbers of cats adopted in those countries would
> be higher if declawing were less restrictive, do we?
By the same token you don't really know that banning declawing in the
U.S. would result in far fewer cats being adopted.
Obviously in both Europe and in the U.S. there are lots of unwanted
cats. You would expect that there would be proportionately more
unwanted cats languishing in shelters in Europe if the unavailability
of declawing is really something that prevents great numbers of people
from adopting cats. I strongly suspect this is not the case, and I hope
that someone from Europe can offer some insight into this question.
The point remains that declawing is rarely considered to be an option
for cat owners in Europe, while in the U.S. it is often done routinely.
Yet somehow Europeans manage to own cats and find other ways to prevent
them from scratching inappropriately. Are European cat owners just
smarter than U.S. cat owners, who can't seem to think of any way to
save their furniture other than having their cats declawed?
Phiz
o...@gci-net.com
wrote:
>If a dilemma is deemed logically false, it doesn't
>matter what country you are in! A false dilemma reduces
>the options to consider to just two, even though that is
>not the case. It ia done so that options are not
>considered. The fact that people use it as an ultimatum,
>doesn't make it a valid argument. It still is blackmail
>and dismisses available alternatives. That vets readily
>accept it instead of educating, makes them cowards.
>
>Monica
>
I wasn't suggesting that people shouldn't be encouraged quite strongly
to exhaust all other approachs. The fact is, however, that lots of
people simply won't go that far for any number of reasons. There are
also people that live in situations where the cat is perceived as a
problem by other than the person who took in the cat.
In cases where the cat has a home that it may lose due to destructive
behavior, not declawing will displace a cat from those that have a
chance at having a home, either this cat or another that could have
been placed in a home. To you it is a false dilemma. To others there
is nothing false about it. They have exhausted THEIR alternatives,
which may differ greatly from yours. If you deny cats to these homes,
somewhere cats are suffering or dying because of it.
>
>o...@gci-net.com wrote in message
><36361ba2...@news.gci-net.com>...
>
>>>As to the fallacious amputate or euthanize dilemma, it
>>>is pure and simple blackmail and that vets succumb to
>it
>>>is distressing, to put it mildly.
>>
>>It's not fallacious in the US. We shouldn't be
>declawing to place cats
>>but cats that lose their homes end up with some cat
>dying.
>>
>>
>>>Monica
>
o...@gci-net.com
>In article <36361ba2...@news.gci-net.com>
>o...@gci-net.com writes:
>
>> >As to the fallacious amputate or euthanize dilemma, it
>> >is pure and simple blackmail and that vets succumb to it
>> >is distressing, to put it mildly.
>>
>> It's not fallacious in the US. We shouldn't be declawing to place cats
>> but cats that lose their homes end up with some cat dying.
>
>True, but it bothers me that this is considered a justification for
>declawing. Dogs can do considerable damage with their claws, and end up
>losing their homes for it, yet declawing dogs is rarely considered.
>People choose to have pets euthanized for all sorts of reasons that I
>think many of us find unjustifiable: the dog barks too much, the cat
>makes too much noise, the pet sheds too much, the dog chews on things,
>the cat isn't affectionate enough, etc. Scratching up furniture is a
>result of the owner not training the cat to scratch appropriately, and
>many of these other undesirable behaviors are also a result of lack of
>training. That people will dump an animal at a shelter or take it to
>the vet to be euthanized for the most appallingly callous reasons does
>not seem to me to be an entirely acceptable justification for routine
>declawing.
>
>-yngver
>(to reply, change initial "i" to "y")
Yeah but it doesn't matter what we think of these people. The dilemma
is that in reality we can choose cats having less than perfect homes
or having cats dying. And lets get away from "routine" declawing. I
don't believe that's most of it. Lots of declawing is done after the
cat has been acquired and the destruction starts. We should be doing
more "routine" education so that at least some attempt is made to
solve the problem before declawing is contemplated.
o...@gci-net.com
<nethi...@worldnet.NOSPAM.att.net> wrote:
>You're knocking her because she reads the newsgroup
>and weighs people's opinion? Don't you value the opinions
>of people in this group? Everyone brings an unimaginable
>supply of facts and experiences to this group, making it a
>fun experience. People who have read studies, volunteered
>at shelters, and lived with countless cats all over the WORLD
>post here. This is a wonderful forum for discussion. Quite
>frankly, we hear more than enough discussion (pros and cons)
>on declawing and spaying in this group to make an extremely
>educated decision on whether to have it done. We have even
>had numerous anatomy lessons on the subjects.
I'm knocking her because she is incapable of responding to a simple
post in a reasonable way. The analogy was a bad one and I said so. Do
you think it made any valid point?
There was also no reason to resort to the bullshit arrogance and
ignorance (an unforgiveable combination) that she spewed.
>
>Don't knock this group>^..^< It is an invaluable tool for learning!
I know it is. It is also an source of bad logic and unsupported
drivel, but that's what newsgroups are :-)
Timothy Hagensick
>
> Or could be trying to get the money from the surgery. I wonder what made
> the vet recomend this anyways (well, I might have just hit the nail on
> the head)? I can't think of a health reason to do so.
>
That depends on WHOSE health is endangered. In my case whether or not to
declaw our two cats is a foregone conclusion. They are getting declawed
as soon as their vet says they are old enough.
My wife is a brittle diabetic who is on a maintenance level of
antibiotics to avoid infections at her injection sites. A accidental
scratching could mean a serious infection possibly requireing
hospitalization. So given the choices of losing my cats (NOT an option),
losing my wife (ALSO NOT an option), or the cats losing their front
fingertips. The cats will loose their fingertips!
Note I said FRONT fingertips, they keep their dewclaws. I have never
inflicted a full declawing on a cat and I never will. Call it a
compromise.
> Tigress
>
> --
> "Reality continues to ruin my life." ... Calvin (of Calvin and Hobbes)
> Lover of all that is Lamborghini, defender of Porsches:
> |\ _,,,---,,_ Tigress
> /,`.-'`' -. ;-;;,_ http://havoc.gtf.gatech.edu/tigress
> |,4- ) )-,_..;\ ( `'-' tig...@havoc.gtf.gatech.edu
> '---''(_/--' `-'\_) Cat drawn by Felix Lee
--
****************************************************
Timothy Hagensick
Statewide Office of Production Services
University of Alaska, Fairbanks
910 Yukon Drive, P.O. Box 755330
Fairbanks, Alaska 99775-5330
mailto:sx...@mail.alaska.edu
****************************************************