BILLBOARD considered Pat Boone a Rock 'n' Roll artist in 1956

[Michael Pendragon]

Billboard, 6/2/1956

[QUOTE]

This Week's Best Buys

I Almost Lost My Mind - Pat Boone - Dot - 15472

Despite the fact that Pat Boone departed from his usual Rock and Roll style here, ...

[END QUOTE]

'Nuff said.

[tr...@iwvisp.com]

That is one of Pat's better slow tunes.

And thank you for confirming what everyone else has been telling you for years. Pat was never a Rock & Roll singer. He was a stylist who sang rearranged, watered down, previously recorded Rock & Roll songs in a style acceptable to an record buying public, many of whom did not have access to the originals.

Ray Arthur

[Michael Pendragon]

The quoted passage says that Pat Boone's "usual style" is "R'n'R." It should be perfectly clear that in 1956, "Billboard," and the majority of its readers considered him to be a "R'n'R" singer.

[Frank]

Yes he was considered an R&R singer in 1956 at least by my circle of friends and I; a horrible one. Any comment we made was negative as to how pathetic his covers were once we knew the originals. One or two of his ballad covers were passable but uptempo numbers? NOT

[Michael Pendragon]

On Tuesday, July 26, 2016 at 1:57:01 PM UTC-4, Frank wrote:
> On Tuesday, July 26, 2016 at 1:29:58 PM UTC-4, Michael Pendragon wrote:
> > On Tuesday, July 26, 2016 at 12:28:50 PM UTC-4, tr...@iwvisp.com wrote:
> > > On Tuesday, July 26, 2016 at 9:05:45 AM UTC-7, Michael Pendragon wrote:
> > > > Billboard, 6/2/1956
> > > >
> > > > [QUOTE]
> > > >
> > > > This Week's Best Buys
> > > >
> > > > I Almost Lost My Mind - Pat Boone - Dot - 15472
> > > >
> > > > Despite the fact that Pat Boone departed from his usual Rock and Roll style here, ...
> > > >
> > > > [END QUOTE]
> > > >
> > > > 'Nuff said.
> > >
> > > That is one of Pat's better slow tunes.
> > >
> > > And thank you for confirming what everyone else has been telling you for years. Pat was never a Rock & Roll singer. He was a stylist who sang rearranged, watered down, previously recorded Rock & Roll songs in a style acceptable to an record buying public, many of whom did not have access to the originals.
> > >
> >
> > The quoted passage says that Pat Boone's "usual style" is "R'n'R." It should be perfectly clear that in 1956, "Billboard," and the majority of its readers considered him to be a "R'n'R" singer.
>
>
>
> Yes he was considered an R&R singer in 1956

Thank you.

> at least by my circle of friends and I; a horrible one. Any comment we made was negative as to how pathetic his covers were once we knew the originals. One or two of his ballad covers were passable but uptempo numbers? NOT
>

A matter of taste.

I, otoh, could never tolerate Little Richard's screechy voice; and, having heard the covers, my appreciation of Fats Domino's originals has diminished considerably.

[Frank]

IMO, you would have been in the very small minority of teenagers who liked Boone's better. Not that this was often a topic 13 year olds would analyze, but honestly no one I knew, and I mean no one liked Boone's version better. By '58 or'59 when everyone knew the original versions and his, he got zero play at dances and parties. That's the way it was then in real time and that's the way it still is as youtube clearly indicates. Please spare me the 8 other "possibilities" as to why this is. You're just speculating and playing devil's advocate while ignoring the obvious.

[Mark Dintenfass]

In article <bb2cee69-b959-46e3...@googlegroups.com>,

Frank <espo...@comcast.net> wrote:

> IMO, you would have been in the very small minority of teenagers who liked
> Boone's better. Not that this was often a topic 13 year olds would analyze,
> but honestly no one I knew, and I mean no one liked Boone's version better.
> By '58 or'59 when everyone knew the original versions and his, he got zero
> play at dances and parties. That's the way it was then in real time and
> that's the way it still is as youtube clearly indicates. Please spare me the
> 8 other "possibilities" as to why this is. You're just speculating and
> playing devil's advocate while ignoring the obvious.

Of course. You've won the argument!!!

Now, can we please change the subject. Fifteen years of this argument
is more than enough.

--
--md
_________
Remove xx's from address to reply

[Frank]

Mark, you are correct but with little else happening here some of us get a kick out of reading what Mike has to say and how he spins things. if only he and Doug would quit the sniping. That's what amazes me. They seem to be intelligent enough guys but to take shots at each other month after month continues to make both look extremely childish and petulant which by now is obvious they actually are, but they obviously don't care.


You should just ignore these threads since most are obvious by the subject line

[Michael Pendragon]

On Tuesday, July 26, 2016 at 2:29:15 PM UTC-4, Frank wrote:
> On Tuesday, July 26, 2016 at 2:15:06 PM UTC-4, Michael Pendragon wrote:
> > On Tuesday, July 26, 2016 at 1:57:01 PM UTC-4, Frank wrote:
> > > On Tuesday, July 26, 2016 at 1:29:58 PM UTC-4, Michael Pendragon wrote:
> > > > On Tuesday, July 26, 2016 at 12:28:50 PM UTC-4, tr...@iwvisp.com wrote:
> > > > > On Tuesday, July 26, 2016 at 9:05:45 AM UTC-7, Michael Pendragon wrote:
> > > > > > Billboard, 6/2/1956
> > > > > >
> > > > > > [QUOTE]
> > > > > >
> > > > > > This Week's Best Buys
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I Almost Lost My Mind - Pat Boone - Dot - 15472
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Despite the fact that Pat Boone departed from his usual Rock and Roll style here, ...
> > > > > >
> > > > > > [END QUOTE]
> > > > > >
> > > > > > 'Nuff said.
> > > > >
> > > > > That is one of Pat's better slow tunes.
> > > > >
> > > > > And thank you for confirming what everyone else has been telling you for years. Pat was never a Rock & Roll singer. He was a stylist who sang rearranged, watered down, previously recorded Rock & Roll songs in a style acceptable to an record buying public, many of whom did not have access to the originals.
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > The quoted passage says that Pat Boone's "usual style" is "R'n'R." It should be perfectly clear that in 1956, "Billboard," and the majority of its readers considered him to be a "R'n'R" singer.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Yes he was considered an R&R singer in 1956
> >
> > Thank you.
> >
> > > at least by my circle of friends and I; a horrible one. Any comment we made was negative as to how pathetic his covers were once we knew the originals. One or two of his ballad covers were passable but uptempo numbers? NOT
> > >
> >
> > A matter of taste.
> >
> > I, otoh, could never tolerate Little Richard's screechy voice; and, having heard the covers, my appreciation of Fats Domino's originals has diminished considerably.
>
>
> IMO, you would have been in the very small minority of teenagers who liked Boone's better.
>

Then please explain why Boone, and not Little Richard or Fats Domino, was second only to Elvis both on the charts and in record sales.

Or how he got to star in a dozen films, had his own tv show, wrote popular advice books to teens, etc.

Obviously the teenagers loved him.

>
Not that this was often a topic 13 year olds would analyze, but honestly no one I knew, and I mean no one liked Boone's version better. By '58 or'59 when everyone knew the original versions and his, he got zero play at dances and parties. That's the way it was then in real time and that's the way it still is as youtube clearly indicates. Please spare me the 8 other "possibilities" as to why this is. You're just speculating and playing devil's advocate while ignoring the obvious.
>

Amazon customer reviews feel differently:

https://www.amazon.com/Greatest-Hits-Pat-Boone/product-reviews/B000002OPH/ref=cm_cr_dp_synop?ie=UTF8&showViewpoints=0&sortBy=recent#R34Z88FYPV9GGR

[Michael Pendragon]

On Tuesday, July 26, 2016 at 2:33:51 PM UTC-4, Mark Dintenfass wrote:

Feel free to exit the group at any time, Professor.

[Michael Pendragon]

I've been doing my best to respond in as civil a manner as Dud's posts allow. A little credit would be appreciated.

[Michael Pendragon]

Check out this Amazon post; here's someone who *was* there who shares my views on the so-called "r'n'r" revolution:

[QUOTE]

4.0 out of 5 starsBing Crosby Junior
ByR. L. MILLERon May 11, 2002
Format: Audio CD
One of the conceits my Boomer generation has built up over the years is that the advent of rock was a revolutionary rather than evolutionary change, and that it owed nothing whatever to the dinosaur garbage of previous generations. This of course was a petulant response on our part, brought on by the condemnation and hostility of the World War II generation to rock--and was in its own way just as narrowminded. Still, half a century of rock has seen a complete revisionist history come into play which has institutionalized for our children's generation (and beyond) this bald-faced lie on our part. The truth is that many of our earlier idols were very derivative of earlier artists. Like Bobby Darin and his descendency from Sinatra. James Darren and his influence by Tony Bennett. Michael Franks and his rather more clever derivation from Perry Como. Ray Thomas of the Moody Blues and his similarity to Robert Goulet. And if Pat Boone wasn't our Bing Crosby, then no one was. Just listen to that resonant baritone in songs like "Love Letters In The Sand" and see if you don't agree. It may be arguable that nothing that is bona fide rock'n'roll has any equivalent in any single sound to earlier popular music, but you have to remember that none of the above Boomer descendants of WW II artists were actually rock'n'roll singers. Especially Boone, who pretty much left rock behind during his starring role in the film "Bernadine". The philosophical differences between the fundamentalist Christian movement Boone later joined and the rock constituency have nothing to do with it--you listen to any of the above singers on both sides of the Generation Gap for how their music sounds--not for ideological indoctrination or reinforcement. At least that's what popular music used to be about anyway.

[END QUOTE]

My only argument is that he only gave the album 4 stars.

[Mark Dintenfass]

In article <43d31298-2211-40c5...@googlegroups.com>,

It's possible that nothing else is going on because of those endless
threads. I don't read Mike's stuff, but I do read your posts, for
example, so the overflow of his narcissistic fantasies becomes
unavoidable.

[Michael Pendragon]

It's ***BILLBOARD***, Professor. B I L L B O A R D.

It doesn't get any more real than that.

Deal with it.

[Bob Roman]

On Tuesday, July 26, 2016 at 3:27:47 PM UTC-4, someone wrote:

> Then please explain why [a marginally talented white singer], and not [one of
> two game-changing black performers], was second only to Elvis both on the

> charts and in record sales.

Your question answers itself.

--
BR

[Unknown]

<snip>

>> You should just ignore these threads since most are obvious by the subject line
>
>It's possible that nothing else is going on because of those endless
>threads. I don't read Mike's stuff, but I do read your posts, for
>example, so the overflow of his narcissistic fantasies becomes
>unavoidable.

Mark, no one is stopping you from starting a thread.
"If you aren't part of the solution you are part of the problem"
JC Crawford introduction to Ramblin' Rose on the MC5 Live album.

[Frank]

Then please explain why Boone, and not Little Richard or Fats Domino, was second only to Elvis both on the charts and in record sales.

Or how he got to star in a dozen films, had his own tv show, wrote popular advice books to teens, etc.

Obviously the teenagers loved him.

It's been explained to you 1000 times but you won't accept it. By the time Boone started making films he was no longer considered an R&R singer.

Pat was second only to Elvis on the charts and record sales because of one simple word. Let me spell it out to you. E-X-P-O-S-U-R-E.

BTW I thought Nat "King" Cole was the second in record sales during the '50s

[tr...@iwvisp.com]

On Tuesday, July 26, 2016 at 12:55:21 PM UTC-7, Michael Pendragon wrote:


I appreciate that you started this post with "shares my views" and not 'shares my facts!'

IMO, the first two lines of the quote are a basic straw man.

Everything one reads about R&R notes it's roots in R&B, Country, etc.


And condemnation of World War II? What?

Bobby Darin moved with the music and the times. If he descended from Sinatra then he ascended to Jerry Lee Lewis and eventually to Bob Dylan.

James Darren wasn't a hitmaker long enough to be included in the author's paragraph to be an example of anything.

Michael Franks? Michael Franks?

Are these the pompous writings of a failed performer possibly?

But, the title says it all, "Bing Crosby, Jr."

"And if Pat Boone wasn't our Bing Crosby, then no one was. ... Especially Boone, who pretty much left rock behind during his starring role in the film "Bernadine". ... "At least that's what popular music used to be about anyway."

Popular music ... Pop Music!

Ray Arthur

[RWC]

On Tue, 26 Jul 2016 10:56:59 -0700 (PDT), Frank <espo...@comcast.net> wrote:
>
>Yes [Pat Boone] was considered an R&R singer in 1956 at least by my circle of friends and I; a horrible one.

Frank, when you first heard Pat Boone sing, on the radio or whatever, was he
singing his upbeat rock and roll songs (eg Long Tall Sally)?

Did you and your friends think his rocking records were horrible even *before*
you heard the originals? If you did, are you still able to expand (as much as
you care to) on 'horrible'.

>One or two of his ballad covers were passable but uptempo numbers? NOT

In hindsight, Boone was never a "rock'n'roll" singer. After hearing his slower
ballads, which he had more of a natural talent for, one realizes he was a young
Pop singer, with many girl fans I imagine, attempting to sing wild teen rock.
Yes, rock'n'roll was one genre of pop(ular) music, but it wasn't Pop in 1956 -
Doris Day was Pop, Frankie Laine was Pop. To group Doris Day ("Teachers Pet")
with Gene Vincent ("Woman Love") would be ridiculous, in this context.

A mid 50s rock'n'roll (as distinct from the more broadly defined 50s/cusp 'rock
and roll') vocalist has to have a 'threat to conservative white middle-class
values' ambience/edge to their singing - eg Presley, Vincent, Richards, Berry...

Pat Boone had none of this ambience whatsoever - there's nothing 'threatening'
about music that merely facilitates upbeat dancing - parents and grandparents
had jitterbugged, etc, in the 30s and 40s.

Some folk might always conflate 50s rock'n'roll with 50s rock and roll, but I
choose not to.


Geoff

[Michael Pendragon]

Of course it does.

Unfortunately, you came up with the incorrect one.

[Frank]

Yes Geoff, the first Boone records I heard were his covers although i wasn't necessarily aware they were. I can't say for sure how old we were when we knew they were covers, but by the late '50s when we knew of both, no one liked Boone's better. I say they are horrible because I didn't like them when I originally heard them. I liked him when he began to sing songs like Love Letters in the Sand and April Love as he did have a sweet voice. I liked uptempo songs like "A Wonderful Time Up There' or "Bernadine", but they were pop not R&R. Don't Forbid Me" was the closest to a R&R song that he sang and I liked.

[Michael Pendragon]

On Tuesday, July 26, 2016 at 7:13:06 PM UTC-4, Frank wrote:
> Then please explain why Boone, and not Little Richard or Fats Domino, was second only to Elvis both on the charts and in record sales.
>
> Or how he got to star in a dozen films, had his own tv show, wrote popular advice books to teens, etc.
>
> Obviously the teenagers loved him.
>
>
> It's been explained to you 1000 times but you won't accept it. By the time Boone started making films he was no longer considered an R&R singer.
>

You're mistaken, Frank. I have only a mild objection to that statement.

I agree that by the time Pat Boone was making films he had switched to Pop. But first impressions last the longest, and as Pat Boone first impressed himself on the culture as a r'n'r singer, many people considered him one long after he'd (mostly) stopped singing it.

The same holds true for Connie Francis and Bobby Darin who also switched to (mostly) Pop.

The important thing (and the one you've already agreed with me on) is that he was originally considered to be a r'n'r artist.

> Pat was second only to Elvis on the charts and record sales because of one simple word. Let me spell it out to you. E-X-P-O-S-U-R-E.
>

Rebecca Black got a ton of exposure when her video went viral on youtube. Pat Boone has a great voice that is instantly recognizable -- two traits that all the great singers (like Elvis) possess. And Pat Boone was a superstar. Returning to the "Goldmine" article:

"Record charts don't tell the whole story though, and it's difficult to imagine today just how popular Boone was at the peak of his career. He appeared in over a dozen films, wrote advice books for teens (Twixt Twelve And Twenty, Between You, Me & The Gatepost, The Care And Feeding Of Parents, etc.) and was a constant presence in teen magazines – many a Pat Boone pinup graced a pubescent girl's wall.

"Not only was he featured in magazines for teens, there were magazines devoted exclusively to him, as well as Pat Boone comic books, and, not surprisingly, more than a handful of "adult" magazine and newspaper articles focusing on the young entertainer's wholesome qualities and church-going lifestyle. He was the good example personified, and that made good copy in the early years of the youth rebellion.

"From October 1957 to June 1960, Boone even hosted his own ABC-TV show, The Pat Boone-Chevy Showroom..."

> BTW I thought Nat "King" Cole was the second in record sales during the '50s

Pat Boone was the second most popular of The Rock 'n' Roll Era, which began in 1955. Nat "King" Cole was the most popular of The Entire Decade.

[Frank]

[Frank]

YES HE WAS FIRST A (HORRIBLE) r&r SINGER BUT YOU HAVE NO PROOF HE WAS THOUGHT OF AS an R&R singer ONCE HE STARTED MAKING MOVIEs AND SINGING POP songs. I surely didn't
Your Rebecca Black comparison is ludicrous. We white kids simply did not know of the originals Boone covered. Why is that such a difficult concept for you to accept?

[Michael Pendragon]

On Tuesday, July 26, 2016 at 7:20:47 PM UTC-4, tr...@iwvisp.com wrote:
> On Tuesday, July 26, 2016 at 12:55:21 PM UTC-7, Michael Pendragon wrote:
>
>
> I appreciate that you started this post with "shares my views" and not 'shares my facts!'
>
> IMO, the first two lines of the quote are a basic straw man.
>
> Everything one reads about R&R notes it's roots in R&B, Country, etc.

Not everything (especially not if you've been reading the quotes from books, articles, liner notes, etc., that I've posted here over the years).

The majority do, yes. But as the Amazon review notes, it is the result of a half century long "bald-faced lie"/"complete revisionist history ... which has institutionalized for our children's generation (and beyond).

> And condemnation of World War II? What?

The reviewer is saying that the 50s teens denied Pop music's role in the evolution of r'n'r in retaliation for the anti-rock stance taken by the WWII generation.

In other words, The Greatest Generation said things like r'n'r "smells phony and false ... is sung, played and written for the most part by cretinous goons ..." and The Boomer Generation responded by claiming it was a reaction against the bland, vanilla songs of Sinatra and his peers.

Tit for tat.

> Bobby Darin moved with the music and the times. If he descended from Sinatra then he ascended to Jerry Lee Lewis and eventually to Bob Dylan.
>

As I see it, he ascended from Lewis to Sinatra to Dylan (a misstep, IMO) and used all three styles interchangeably at the end of his career (on television and in Vegas).

> James Darren wasn't a hitmaker long enough to be included in the author's paragraph to be an example of anything.
>

True.

> Michael Franks? Michael Franks?

Good question.

> Are these the pompous writings of a failed performer possibly?
>
> But, the title says it all, "Bing Crosby, Jr."
>
> "And if Pat Boone wasn't our Bing Crosby, then no one was. ...

Quite true. I'm sure that Pat Boone would consider that the highest compliment.

> Especially Boone, who pretty much left rock behind during his starring role in the film "Bernadine". ... "At least that's what popular music used to be about anyway."
>
> Popular music ... Pop Music!

Yes. That's the point. The early R'n'R *hits* were Pop (or Pop-R&B/Pop-Country hybrids). In 1954, '55, and '56 R'n'R chart toppers were by Perry Como, Eddie Fisher, The Fontane Sisters and Kay Starr. About half of them, at any rate.

The other half were by R&B and Country artists who'd given their music the same "sock" beat utilized by the popular Pop covers.

Early R'n'R was 50% Pop.

[SavoyBG]

On Tuesday, July 26, 2016 at 11:15:23 PM UTC-4, Frank wrote:

> We white kids simply did not know of the originals Boone covered.

You must have been quite a geek. All the guys your age that I know certainly knew "Ain't That A Shame" by Fats Domino, "At My Front Door" by the El Dorados, and the two Little Richard records (Tutti-Frutti, Long Tall Sally) that Boone desecrated. Are you saying that you were unfamiliar witrh these records in 1955 and 1956?

[RWC]

On Tue, 26 Jul 2016 19:43:11 -0700 (PDT), Frank <espo...@comcast.net> wrote:


>I say they are horrible because I didn't like them when I *originally* heard them.

Okay, but can you say why you thought they were horrible (regardless of the
original versions)?

The answer might not be easy to figure out exactly and more so to talk about,
and hence I realize you might want to pass on this one, Frank.


Cheers

[Michael Pendragon]

On Tuesday, July 26, 2016 at 10:29:35 PM UTC-4, RWC wrote:

> On Tue, 26 Jul 2016 10:56:59 -0700 (PDT), Frank <espo...@comcast.net> wrote:
> >
> >Yes [Pat Boone] was considered an R&R singer in 1956 at least by my circle of friends and I; a horrible one.
>
> Frank, when you first heard Pat Boone sing, on the radio or whatever, was he
> singing his upbeat rock and roll songs (eg Long Tall Sally)?
>
> Did you and your friends think his rocking records were horrible even *before*
> you heard the originals? If you did, are you still able to expand (as much as
> you care to) on 'horrible'.
>
> >One or two of his ballad covers were passable but uptempo numbers? NOT
>
> In hindsight, Boone was never a "rock'n'roll" singer.

In hindsight.

I disagree that he was never a "rock 'n' roll" singer, because that's what Americans thought of him as; and because that's what r'n'r was at that time.

In hindsight, I can say that he was a Pop singer who got his start singing r'n'r.

> After hearing his slower
> ballads, which he had more of a natural talent for, one realizes he was a young
> Pop singer, with many girl fans I imagine, attempting to sing wild teen rock.
> Yes, rock'n'roll was one genre of pop(ular) music, but it wasn't Pop in 1956 -
> Doris Day was Pop, Frankie Laine was Pop. To group Doris Day ("Teachers Pet")
> with Gene Vincent ("Woman Love") would be ridiculous, in this context.
>
> A mid 50s rock'n'roll (as distinct from the more broadly defined 50s/cusp 'rock
> and roll') vocalist has to have a 'threat to conservative white middle-class
> values' ambience/edge to their singing - eg Presley, Vincent, Richards, Berry...
>
> Pat Boone had none of this ambience whatsoever - there's nothing 'threatening'
> about music that merely facilitates upbeat dancing - parents and grandparents
> had jitterbugged, etc, in the 30s and 40s.
>
> Some folk might always conflate 50s rock'n'roll with 50s rock and roll, but I
> choose not to.

When r'n'r (I choose not to differentiate) first burst onto the Popular charts, it was is in its "non-threatening" form: The Crew-Cuts, Perry Como, The Fontanes, The McGuires, Teresa Brewer, Kay Starr, Georgia Gibbs, Gale Storm, Eddie Fisher, Bill Haley, The Platters, and Pat Boone. The sexuality/threat came in with Elvis, Jerry Lee Lewis, Buddy Holly, Little Richard, et. al., who *followed* the "non-threatening" types.

It's your right to draw a line and between the styles to differentiate the records you love from the records you merely like (or even dislike); but to re-define "r'n'r" by the persona of the performer is a bit ... odd.

[Frank]

I have no recollection whether I heard Boone's or the originals first. Probably Boone's since I was listening to mainstream AM radio. Sure I knew of the songs you mentioned, but can't swear as to which version I heard first.

[SavoyBG]

On Wednesday, July 27, 2016 at 12:27:01 AM UTC-4, Frank wrote:
>
> I have no recollection whether I heard Boone's or the originals first. Probably Boone's since I was listening to mainstream AM radio. Sure I knew of the songs you mentioned, but can't swear as to which version I heard first.

Here's the WMGM survey for May 7, 1956. They were playing "Long Tall Sally" by Little Richard, but not by Boone. They were playing "Eddie My Love" by the Teen Queens, but not by the Chordettes or the Fontane Sisters. They were playing "Why Do Fools Fall In Love" by the Teenagers, but not by Gale Storm or the Diamonds. They were playing "Church Bells May Ring" by the Willows, but not by the Diamonds.

http://www.musicradio77.com/wmgm/surveys/1956/surveymay756.html

TW LW
1 ?? HEARTBREAK HOTEL - Elvis Presley (RCA Victor)
2 ?? HOT DIGGITY (Dog Ziggity Boom) - Perry Como (RCA Victor)
3 ?? THE POOR PEOPLE OF PARIS - Les Baxter & His Orchestra (Capitol)
4 ?? MOONGLOW AND THEME FROM “PICNIC” - Morris Stoloff (Decca)
5 ?? BLUE SUEDE SHOES - Carl Perkins (Sun)
6 ?? WHY DO FOOLS FALL IN LOVE - The Teenagers featuring Frankie
Lymon (Gee)
7 ?? THE MAGIC TOUCH - The Platters (Mercury)
8 ?? IVORY TOWER - Cathy Carr (Fraternity) / Otis Williams & His
Charms (DeLuxe)
9 ?? LISBON ANTIGUA - Nelson Riddle & His Orchestra (Capitol)
10 ?? ROCK ISLAND LINE - The Lonnie Donegan Skiffle Group (London)
10 ?? MAIN TITLE AND MOLLY-O - Dick Jacobs & His Orchestra (Coral)
11 ?? A TEAR FELL - Teresa Brewer (Coral)
12 ?? I WANT YOU TO BE MY GIRL - Frankie Lymon & The Teenagers (Gee)
13 ?? NO, NOT MUCH - The Four Lads (Columbia)
14 ?? I’LL BE HOME - Pat Boone (Dot)
15 ?? LONG TALL SALLY - Little Richard & His Band (Specialty)
16 ?? MORITAT (A Theme From “The Three Penny Opera”) - The Dick Hyman
Trio (M-G-M)
17 ?? INNAMORATA (Sweetheart) - Jerry Vale (Columbia)
18 ?? STANDING ON THE CORNER - The Four Lads (Columbia)
19 ?? CHURCH BELLS MAY RING - The Willows (Melba)
20 ?? JUKE BOX BABY - Perry Como (RCA Victor)
21 ?? LITTLE GIRL OF MINE - The Cleftones (Gee)
22 ?? THE WAYWARD WIND - Gogi Grant (Era)
23 ?? EDDIE MY LOVE - The Teen Queens (RPM)
24 ?? MR. WONDERFUL - Sarah Vaughan (Mercury)
25 ?? LOVELY ONE - The Four Voices (Columbia)
26 ?? TOO YOUNG TO GO STEADY - Nat “King” Cole (Capitol)
27 ?? LOST IN THE SHUFFLE - Jaye P. Morgan (RCA Victor)
28 ?? THE HAPPY WHISTLER - Don Robertson (Capitol)
29 ?? CAN YOU FIND IT IN YOUR HEART - Tony Bennett (Columbia)
30 ?? WALK HAND IN HAND - Tony Martin (RCA Victor)
31 ?? THE SAINTS ROCK ’N ROLL - Bill Haley & His Comets (Decca)
32 ?? INFATUATION - Renato Carosone (Capitol)
33 ?? BO WEEVIL - Teresa Brewer (Coral)
34 ?? MY BLUE HEAVEN - Fats Domino (Imperial)
35 ?? TOO CLOSE FOR COMFORT - Eydie Gorme (ABC-Paramount)
36 ?? I COULD HAVE DANCED ALL NIGHT - Sylvia Syms (Decca)
37 ?? R-O-C-K - Bill Haley & His Comets (Decca)
38 ?? PORT AU PRINCE - Nelson Riddle & His Orchestra (Capitol)
39 ?? ON THE STREET WHERE YOU LIVE - Vic Damone (Columbia)
40 ?? TO LOVE AGAIN - The Four Aces (Decca)

[Roger Ford]

On Tue, 26 Jul 2016 20:24:28 -0700 (PDT), SavoyBG <Sav...@aol.com>
wrote:

>On Tuesday, July 26, 2016 at 11:15:23 PM UTC-4, Frank wrote:
>

>> We white kids simply did not know of the originals Boone covered.=20
>
>You must have been quite a geek. All the guys your age that I know certainl=
>y knew "Ain't That A Shame" by Fats Domino, "At My Front Door" by the El Do=
>rados, and the two Little Richard records (Tutti-Frutti, Long Tall Sally) t=
>hat Boone desecrated. Are you saying that you were unfamiliar witrh these r=
>ecords in 1955 and 1956?
>
Living and growing up 3,000 miles away on another continent I first
heard all these songs in the Boone versions,mostly via the BBC.

Only in the case of "Ain't That A Shame" did the original appear here
at the same time but it was a few weeks after I first heard the Boone
that I caught up with the Fats original that Luxembourg played. What a
revelation!!! It was my introduction to the great man,being
completely unaware of the five years-worth of previous records that
Fats had to his name (and that would provide me with such pleasure in
discovering them in the years to come).

I don't remember hearing "At My Front Door" by Boone or anyone else in
1955 not even on Luxembourg. And of course The (vastly superior as I
discovered on first hearing) El Dorados original never appeared here
at all and I was unaware of it till much later.

And I've related the "Tutti Frutti" and "Long Tall Sally" UK saga on
here before---how in 1955 and 1956 it was only possible to hear the
Boone versions on domestic radio since Specialty had no distribution
deal over here until November 1956 when our introduction to Mr
Penniman was "Rip It Up"/"Ready Teddy" on the London label. It was
January 1957 before Richard's second single appeared here----the
greatest double sided single of all time anywhere!!

"Long Tall Sally"/"Tutti Frutti" (London 8366)



ROGER FORD
-----------------------

"Spam Free Zone" - to combat unwanted automatic spamming I have added
an extra "b" in my e-mail address (mari...@bblueyonder.co.uk).
Please delete same before responding.Thank you!

[Unknown]

On Tue, 26 Jul 2016 20:44:31 -0700 (PDT), Michael Pendragon
<michaelmalef...@gmail.com> wrote:

>I disagree that he was never a "rock 'n' roll" singer, because that's what Americans thought of him as; and because that's what r'n'r was at that time.

"The big labels like RCA, Columbia and Decca are ignoring the really
great Negro artists because they don't understand or care about the
music. They don't think it is worthwhile, artistically or
commercially. Well, I don't have to tell you how wrong they are"

Lester Sill

American's thought he was a rock and roll singer because that's what
the establishment told them he was. It was simply the blind leading
the blinder. However they soon learned differently.

Did Alan Freed, Dewey Phillips, Hunter Hancock, John R etc ever
consider Boone rock and roll?

[Unknown]

On Tue, 26 Jul 2016 21:26:59 -0700 (PDT), Frank <espo...@comcast.net>

Frank, would it be true to say that the reason you thought Boone was
rock and roll was simply because that's what you were told?

If you were hearing songs like Long Tall Sally etc and then heard
Boone would you have still considered Boone to be real rock and roll?

Considering that most if not all the songs Boone did prior to TF and
LTS were R&B would that make Boone an R&B?

[Michael Pendragon]

On Wednesday, July 27, 2016 at 1:04:53 AM UTC-4, SavoyBG wrote:
> On Wednesday, July 27, 2016 at 12:27:01 AM UTC-4, Frank wrote:
> >
> > I have no recollection whether I heard Boone's or the originals first. Probably Boone's since I was listening to mainstream AM radio. Sure I knew of the songs you mentioned, but can't swear as to which version I heard first.
>
> Here's the WMGM survey for May 7, 1956. They were playing "Long Tall Sally" by > Little Richard, but not by Boone.

But they are playing Boone's "I'll Be Home" -- and one spot over LR's "Long Tall Sally."

>
> http://www.musicradio77.com/wmgm/surveys/1956/surveymay756.html

For a more accurate, farther reaching source, let's go to Billboard's Top 100 chart for May 5, 1956. You'll note that "covers" by Pat Boone, The Fontanes, Gale Storm, The Chordettes, and The Diamonds are all present:

1 HEARTBREAK HOTEL - Elvis Presley (RCA Victor)
2 HOT DIGGITY (Dog Ziggity Boom) - Perry Como (RCA Victor)
3 THE POOR PEOPLE OF PARIS - Les Baxter & His Orchestra (Capitol)
4 BLUE SUEDE SHOES - Carl Perkins (Sun)
5 LISBON ANTIGUA - Nelson Riddle & His Orchestra (Capitol)
5 THE MAGIC TOUCH - The Platters (Mercury)
7 A TEAR FELL - Teresa Brewer (Coral)
8 NO, NOT MUCH - The Four Lads (Columbia)
9 I’LL BE HOME - Pat Boone (Dot)
10 ROCK ISLAND LINE - The Lonnie Donegan Skiffle Group (London)
11 WHY DO FOOLS FALL IN LOVE? - The Teenagers featuring Frankie Lymon (Gee)
12 IVORY TOWER - Cathy Carr (Fraternity)
13 MOONGLOW AND THEME FROM “PICNIC” - Morris Stoloff (Decca)
14 IVORY TOWER - Otis Williams & His Charms (DeLuxe)
14 LONG TALL SALLY - Little Richard & His Band (Specialty)
16 MOONGLOW AND THEME FROM “PICNIC” - George Cates (Coral)
17 MAIN TITLE ("MAN WITH THE GOLDEN ARM") - Richard Maltby (Vik)
17 ROCK AND ROLL WALTZ - Kay Starr (RCA Victor)
19 EDDIE MY LOVE - Fontane Sisters (Dot)
20 WHY DO FOOLS FALL IN LOVE? - Gale Storm (Dot)
21 JUKE BOX BABY - Perry Como (RCA Victor)
22 WHY DO FOOLS FALL IN LOVE? - Diamonds (Mercury)
23 LONG TALL SALLY - Pat Boone (Dot)
24 BLUE SUEDE SHOES - Elvis Presley (RCA Victor)
25 THE HAPPY WHISTLER - Don Robertson (Capitol)
26 IVORY TOWER - Gale Storm (Dot)
27 MR. WONDERFUL - Peggy Lee (Decca)
28 EDDIE, MY LOVE - Chordettes (Cadence)
28 MAIN TITLE MOLLY-O ("MAN WITH THE GOLDEN ARM") - Dick Jacobs & His Orchestra (Coral)
30 STANDING ON THE CORNER - The Four Lads (Columbia)

And The Diamonds' cover of CHURCH BELLS MAY RING (Mercury) came it at #47.

[Michael Pendragon]

On Wednesday, July 27, 2016 at 8:52:47 AM UTC-4, nor...@googlegroups.com wrote:
> On Tue, 26 Jul 2016 20:44:31 -0700 (PDT), Michael Pendragon
> <michaelmalef...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >I disagree that he was never a "rock 'n' roll" singer, because that's what Americans thought of him as; and because that's what r'n'r was at that time.
>
> "The big labels like RCA, Columbia and Decca are ignoring the really
> great Negro artists because they don't understand or care about the
> music. They don't think it is worthwhile, artistically or
> commercially. Well, I don't have to tell you how wrong they are"
>
> Lester Sill
>

> American's thought he was a rock and roll singer ... <snip>

Thank you.

End point.

[SavoyBG]

On Wednesday, July 27, 2016 at 9:08:40 AM UTC-4, Michael Pendragon wrote:
>
> For a more accurate, farther reaching source, let's go to Billboard's Top 100 chart for May 5, 1956.

14 LONG TALL SALLY - Little Richard & His Band (Specialty)

[SavoyBG]

Americans thought that Bill Cosby was a great guy, but now they know the truth.

[Michael Pendragon]

Yuh-yeah, you got me there Bruce. Uh-huh, you did, you did.

[Michael Pendragon]

But to claim that Americans in the 1980s idolized a serial rapist as their ideal father figure would be wildly misleading.

[SavoyBG]

The public chose.

[Michael Pendragon]

Earth to Bruce: it's 9 points higher on the BB charts that week. LR's version peaked at #6, Boone's at #8.

Another resounding Whoop-de-damn-do.

[SavoyBG]

But true.

Just as many Americans thought that Pat Boone was a rock and roll singer, until they realized he wasn't. Just as many Americans thought that Bernie Madoff was a financial wizard, until they realized he wasn't.

[Michael Pendragon]

On Wednesday, July 27, 2016 at 10:30:38 AM UTC-4, SavoyBG wrote:
> On Wednesday, July 27, 2016 at 10:22:21 AM UTC-4, Michael Pendragon wrote:
> > On Wednesday, July 27, 2016 at 10:11:48 AM UTC-4, SavoyBG wrote:
> > > On Wednesday, July 27, 2016 at 9:11:01 AM UTC-4, Michael Pendragon wrote:
> > > > On Wednesday, July 27, 2016 at 8:52:47 AM UTC-4, nor...@googlegroups.com wrote:
> > > > > On Tue, 26 Jul 2016 20:44:31 -0700 (PDT), Michael Pendragon
> > > > > <michaelmalef...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > >I disagree that he was never a "rock 'n' roll" singer, because that's what Americans thought of him as; and because that's what r'n'r was at that time.
> > > > >
> > > > > "The big labels like RCA, Columbia and Decca are ignoring the really
> > > > > great Negro artists because they don't understand or care about the
> > > > > music. They don't think it is worthwhile, artistically or
> > > > > commercially. Well, I don't have to tell you how wrong they are"
> > > > >
> > > > > Lester Sill
> > > > >
> > > > > American's thought he was a rock and roll singer ... <snip>
> > >
> > > Americans thought that Bill Cosby was a great guy, but now they know the truth.
> > >
> >
> > But to claim that Americans in the 1980s idolized a serial rapist as their ideal father figure would be wildly misleading.
>
> But true.

No, it isn't.

They didn't knowingly idolize a serial rapist. They idolized his public persona as presented through his tv character, Dr. Huxtable.

> Just as many Americans thought that Pat Boone was a rock and roll singer, until they realized he wasn't. Just as many Americans thought that Bernie Madoff was a financial wizard, until they realized he wasn't.
>

Pat Boone was a rock and roll singer until he switched to standards and spirituals. Just as Little Richard was a r'n'r singer until he quit to become a preacher.

[Frank]

I thought they were rock& roll because of the rendition but realized it wasn't the genuine article. I may not have heard of the originals at the same time, but i knew The Crows,Earth Angel, Bill Haley and the Comets. Boone's did not hit a home run with me like those did, At best, it was a bunt single.

[Michael Pendragon]

But that's just a matter of personal taste.

As one of the articles I've recently quoted points out, r'n'r "purists" prefer the "raw" originals, while "EASY-POP" fans often prefer the covers. As a Pop fan, I certainly prefer the covers.

And since prior to 1955 there were only Pop fans (insofar as mainstream culture was concerned), it's a safe bet that most of them preferred the "polished," "more professional" covers.

A little later on, once folks became acclimatized to the new musical form, many teens switched over to the "purist" camp. But in 1955, r'n'r meant Pat Boone, Georgia Gibbs and The Fontanes as much as it did The Comets and The Teen-Agers.

[SavoyBG]

It was #8 on the jukebox list. It only got to #18 on the overall Top 100. On the sales chart the Boone got to a wopping #23, with Little Richard getting to #6.

Randy Wood did a better job of getting the records on jukeboxes than Art Rupe did.

[Michael Pendragon]

On Wednesday, July 27, 2016 at 10:59:42 AM UTC-4, SavoyBG wrote:
> On Wednesday, July 27, 2016 at 10:29:51 AM UTC-4, Michael Pendragon wrote:
> > On Wednesday, July 27, 2016 at 10:26:50 AM UTC-4, SavoyBG wrote:
> > > On Wednesday, July 27, 2016 at 10:20:25 AM UTC-4, Michael Pendragon wrote:
> > > > On Wednesday, July 27, 2016 at 10:11:02 AM UTC-4, SavoyBG wrote:
> > > > > On Wednesday, July 27, 2016 at 9:08:40 AM UTC-4, Michael Pendragon wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > For a more accurate, farther reaching source, let's go to Billboard's Top 100 chart for May 5, 1956.
> > > > >
> > > > > 14 LONG TALL SALLY - Little Richard & His Band (Specialty)
> > > > > 23 LONG TALL SALLY - Pat Boone (Dot)
> > > >
> > > > Yuh-yeah, you got me there Bruce. Uh-huh, you did, you did.
> > >
> > > The public chose.
> >
> > Earth to Bruce: it's 9 points higher on the BB charts that week. LR's version peaked at #6, Boone's at #8.
> >
> > Another resounding Whoop-de-damn-do.
>
> It was #8 on the jukebox list. It only got to #18 on the overall Top 100.

Not according to Wikipedia.

> On the sales chart the Boone got to a wopping #23, with Little Richard getting to #6.
>

#23 is pretty darned impressive.

[SavoyBG]

Not anywhere near as impressive as #6.

[Michael Pendragon]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cieFmcOqiUY

[RWC]

On Tue, 26 Jul 2016 20:44:31 -0700 (PDT), Michael Pendragon
<michaelmalef...@gmail.com> wrote:

>I disagree that [Pat Boone] was never a "rock 'n' roll" singer, because that's what Americans thought of him as; and because that's what r'n'r was at that time.
>
Because you "choose not to differentiate" we are not on the same page.

>In hindsight, I can say that he was a Pop singer who got his start singing r'n'r.

As long as r'n'r is short for Rock and Roll, and not Rock 'n' Roll.

>
>> After hearing his slower
>> ballads, which he had more of a natural talent for, one realizes he was a young
>> Pop singer, with many girl fans I imagine, attempting to sing wild teen rock.
>> Yes, rock'n'roll was one genre of pop(ular) music, but it wasn't Pop in 1956 -
>> Doris Day was Pop, Frankie Laine was Pop. To group Doris Day ("Teachers Pet")
>> with Gene Vincent ("Woman Love") would be ridiculous, in this context.
>>
>> A mid 50s rock'n'roll (as distinct from the more broadly defined 50s/cusp 'rock
>> and roll') vocalist has to have a 'threat to conservative white middle-class
>> values' ambience/edge to their singing - eg Presley, Vincent, Richards, Berry...
>>
>> Pat Boone had none of this ambience whatsoever - there's nothing 'threatening'
>> about music that merely facilitates upbeat dancing - parents and grandparents
>> had jitterbugged, etc, in the 30s and 40s.
>>
>> Some folk might always conflate 50s rock'n'roll with 50s rock and roll, but I
>> choose not to.
>
>When r'n'r (I choose not to differentiate)
> first burst onto the Popular charts, it was is in its "non-threatening" form: The Crew-Cuts, Perry Como, The Fontanes, The McGuires, Teresa Brewer, Kay Starr, Georgia Gibbs, Gale Storm, Eddie Fisher, Bill Haley, The Platters, and Pat Boone.

Mike, for music to be recognized as "rock and roll" it must reflect one or more
values from a palette of sociological values unique to 50s teens.

As such, "Dungaree Doll" gets a tick, but I can't think of any Teresa Brewer or
McGuire Sisters record before 1956 that is "rock and roll". (btw I really like
"Give Me Love", but this is not rock music, it's modern dynamic adult Pop)

I note, in a recent post, that you have adopted a narrow simplistic view that
the source and evolution of 50s "rock and roll" music can be totally explained
and traced by simply studying the year by year changes in the post-war Billboard
"pop" charts.

This is so wrong/flawed. The irony here, Mike, is that you are the revisionist.
True rock and roll records that entered the charts in the early to mid 50s did
not evolve solely from earlier 'pop' chart records, they were heavily influenced
by 'outside' R&B, and perhaps Hillbilly, recordings.

With regards to early-to-mid 50's pop music, Mike, it seems you sometimes
misclassify upbeat classic Pop as "Rock and Roll". I agree that Pat Boone sang
"rock and roll" with his covers, but Teresa Brewer and Kay Starr, for instance,
never sang "rock and roll" before 1956 - these ladies sang upbeat classic Pop.

>It's your right to draw a line and between the styles to differentiate the records you love from the records you merely like (or even dislike);

In this thread I've never differentiated between types of records I love and
those I merely like or dislike. I've discussed music genre definitions in a
neutral manner.

Anyway, your perceptions/assumptions here are sadly wrong, Mike. I'm surprised,
disappointed even, that you haven't picked up by now, after 10+ years, that my
tastes are genuinely wide (subject to cherry picking).

> but to re-define "r'n'r" by the persona of the performer is a bit ... odd.

I have not re-defined "r'n'r" - your vague ill-defined cryptic reference to 50s
teen music. What I have done, is to distinguish "rock'n'roll" music from "rock
and roll" music. I see nothing "odd" about perceiving a difference between the
relatively lame rock and roll music of Pat Boone and the gutsy rock'n'roll music
of (your nemeses) Little Richard.


Geoff

[Unknown]

On Wed, 27 Jul 2016 08:04:52 -0700 (PDT), Michael Pendragon
<michaelmalef...@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Wednesday, July 27, 2016 at 10:59:42 AM UTC-4, SavoyBG wrote:
>> On Wednesday, July 27, 2016 at 10:29:51 AM UTC-4, Michael Pendragon wrote:
>> > On Wednesday, July 27, 2016 at 10:26:50 AM UTC-4, SavoyBG wrote:
>> > > On Wednesday, July 27, 2016 at 10:20:25 AM UTC-4, Michael Pendragon wrote:
>> > > > On Wednesday, July 27, 2016 at 10:11:02 AM UTC-4, SavoyBG wrote:
>> > > > > On Wednesday, July 27, 2016 at 9:08:40 AM UTC-4, Michael Pendragon wrote:
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > > For a more accurate, farther reaching source, let's go to Billboard's Top 100 chart for May 5, 1956.
>> > > > >
>> > > > > 14 LONG TALL SALLY - Little Richard & His Band (Specialty)
>> > > > > 23 LONG TALL SALLY - Pat Boone (Dot)
>> > > >
>> > > > Yuh-yeah, you got me there Bruce. Uh-huh, you did, you did.
>> > >
>> > > The public chose.
>> >
>> > Earth to Bruce: it's 9 points higher on the BB charts that week. LR's version peaked at #6, Boone's at #8.
>> >
>> > Another resounding Whoop-de-damn-do.
>>
>> It was #8 on the jukebox list. It only got to #18 on the overall Top 100.
>
>Not according to Wikipedia.

Your valued resource until it isn't

>
>> On the sales chart the Boone got to a wopping #23, with Little Richard getting to #6.
>>
>
>#23 is pretty darned impressive.

#6 is three+ times more impressive. Especially, according to you, by
a obscure black singer.

[RWC]

On Thu, 28 Jul 2016 13:59:05 +1000, RWC wrote:

>Mike, for music to be recognized as "rock and roll" it must reflect one or more
>values from a palette of sociological values unique to 50s teens.
>

Clearly I'm referring to 'white' rock and roll (which includes Richards and
Berry), the music that eventually hit the big time in 1956.

'Black' rock and roll of the post-war 40s, going by the lyrics, was, it seems,
made for folk aged approx 17 to ~35? - it clearly was not primarily for folk
aged approx 11 to ~21? I stand to be corrected/better informed here.

'White' rock and roll, of course, owes a lot to 'black' rock and roll, but it
ain't the same beast - and it's not just a difference in lyric themes; musical
arrangements are different; the ambience of vocals are different.

[Michael Pendragon]

On Thursday, July 28, 2016 at 12:02:43 AM UTC-4, RWC wrote:
> On Tue, 26 Jul 2016 20:44:31 -0700 (PDT), Michael Pendragon
> <michaelmalef...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >I disagree that [Pat Boone] was never a "rock 'n' roll" singer, because that's what Americans thought of him as; and because that's what r'n'r was at that time.
> >
> Because you "choose not to differentiate" we are not on the same page.

That's what disagreement is.

> >In hindsight, I can say that he was a Pop singer who got his start singing r'n'r.
>
> As long as r'n'r is short for Rock and Roll, and not Rock 'n' Roll.

Break it into as many sub-categories as you like.

> >> After hearing his slower
> >> ballads, which he had more of a natural talent for, one realizes he was a young
> >> Pop singer, with many girl fans I imagine, attempting to sing wild teen rock.
> >> Yes, rock'n'roll was one genre of pop(ular) music, but it wasn't Pop in 1956 -
> >> Doris Day was Pop, Frankie Laine was Pop. To group Doris Day ("Teachers Pet")
> >> with Gene Vincent ("Woman Love") would be ridiculous, in this context.
> >>
> >> A mid 50s rock'n'roll (as distinct from the more broadly defined 50s/cusp 'rock
> >> and roll') vocalist has to have a 'threat to conservative white middle-class
> >> values' ambience/edge to their singing - eg Presley, Vincent, Richards, Berry...
> >>
> >> Pat Boone had none of this ambience whatsoever - there's nothing 'threatening'
> >> about music that merely facilitates upbeat dancing - parents and grandparents
> >> had jitterbugged, etc, in the 30s and 40s.
> >>
> >> Some folk might always conflate 50s rock'n'roll with 50s rock and roll, but I
> >> choose not to.
> >
> >When r'n'r (I choose not to differentiate)
> > first burst onto the Popular charts, it was is in its "non-threatening" form: The Crew-Cuts, Perry Como, The Fontanes, The McGuires, Teresa Brewer, Kay Starr, Georgia Gibbs, Gale Storm, Eddie Fisher, Bill Haley, The Platters, and Pat Boone.
>
> Mike, for music to be recognized as "rock and roll" it must reflect one or more
> values from a palette of sociological values unique to 50s teens.

Must? That would make for a very narrow definition.

Let's say that there are various factors that make a record "rock and roll," one of which is that "it must reflect one or more values from a palette of sociological values unique to 50s teens."

> As such, "Dungaree Doll" gets a tick, but I can't think of any Teresa Brewer or
> McGuire Sisters record before 1956 that is "rock and roll". (btw I really like
> "Give Me Love", but this is not rock music, it's modern dynamic adult Pop)

Thematically, there were novelty songs like "Choo'n Gum," that reflected a sociological value unique to 50s teens, but I wouldn't call it R'n'R on that account. "Ricochet," otoh, is somewhere between Pop and R'n'R.

I would call "Give Me Love" a Pop-Rock hybrid.

> I note, in a recent post, that you have adopted a narrow simplistic view that
> the source and evolution of 50s "rock and roll" music can be totally explained
> and traced by simply studying the year by year changes in the post-war Billboard
> "pop" charts.

That is one of several methods (merely the predominant one).

> This is so wrong/flawed. The irony here, Mike, is that you are the revisionist.
> True rock and roll records that entered the charts in the early to mid 50s did
> not evolve solely from earlier 'pop' chart records, they were heavily influenced
> by 'outside' R&B, and perhaps Hillbilly, recordings.

I have always acknowledged the R&B/Hillbilly influences. I just feel that the driving force was Pop.

The evolution worked along this model:

1) a Hillbilly or R&B song makes some ingress on the Pop chart/shows promise by topping its respective genre chart;
2) Pop labels "cover" it, changing it to straight Pop ("Cold, Cold Heart") or Pop-Country ("Your Cheatin' Heart") or even (very) early R'n'R ("Hey, Good Lookin'").
3) noting the greater success of the Pop "covers," Hillbilly and R&B labels add Pop elements to their songs.

> With regards to early-to-mid 50's pop music, Mike, it seems you sometimes
> misclassify upbeat classic Pop as "Rock and Roll". I agree that Pat Boone sang
> "rock and roll" with his covers, but Teresa Brewer and Kay Starr, for instance,
> never sang "rock and roll" before 1956 - these ladies sang upbeat classic Pop.

To take but two examples from Kay Starr's catalogue: "Wheel of Fortune" is borderline R'n'R, and "Rock and Roll Waltz" is ... like the title says, half R'n'R.

As to Teresa Brewer, there's "Bo Weevil," "Ricochet," and dozens of other records from the early 50s ("Gonna Get Along Without You Now") that are obviously Pop-Rock hybrids. Most here consider Brenda Lee to be "R'n'R," and there's precious little difference between her records and Teresa Brewer's.

> >It's your right to draw a line and between the styles to differentiate the records you love from the records you merely like (or even dislike);
>
> In this thread I've never differentiated between types of records I love and
> those I merely like or dislike. I've discussed music genre definitions in a
> neutral manner.

I wasn't saying that you had done so -- I was saying that you should not only start doing so, but that you should limit your line-drawing to just that.

> Anyway, your perceptions/assumptions here are sadly wrong, Mike. I'm surprised,
> disappointed even, that you haven't picked up by now, after 10+ years, that my
> tastes are genuinely wide (subject to cherry picking).

As note above, you've misunderstood my sentence (partly my fault as it's got a confusing typo in it).

> > but to re-define "r'n'r" by the persona of the performer is a bit ... odd.
>
> I have not re-defined "r'n'r" - your vague ill-defined cryptic reference to 50s
> teen music. What I have done, is to distinguish "rock'n'roll" music from "rock
> and roll" music. I see nothing "odd" about perceiving a difference between the
> relatively lame rock and roll music of Pat Boone and the gutsy rock'n'roll music
> of (your nemeses) Little Richard.

As noted, I see nothing wrong with this either -- so long as the line reflects your personal taste, and is not meant to serve as a general definition.

[Michael Pendragon]

On Thursday, July 28, 2016 at 9:58:42 AM UTC-4, nor...@googlegroups.com wrote:
> On Wed, 27 Jul 2016 08:04:52 -0700 (PDT), Michael Pendragon
> <michaelmalef...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >On Wednesday, July 27, 2016 at 10:59:42 AM UTC-4, SavoyBG wrote:
> >> On Wednesday, July 27, 2016 at 10:29:51 AM UTC-4, Michael Pendragon wrote:
> >> > On Wednesday, July 27, 2016 at 10:26:50 AM UTC-4, SavoyBG wrote:
> >> > > On Wednesday, July 27, 2016 at 10:20:25 AM UTC-4, Michael Pendragon wrote:
> >> > > > On Wednesday, July 27, 2016 at 10:11:02 AM UTC-4, SavoyBG wrote:
> >> > > > > On Wednesday, July 27, 2016 at 9:08:40 AM UTC-4, Michael Pendragon wrote:
> >> > > > > >
> >> > > > > > For a more accurate, farther reaching source, let's go to Billboard's Top 100 chart for May 5, 1956.
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > > 14 LONG TALL SALLY - Little Richard & His Band (Specialty)
> >> > > > > 23 LONG TALL SALLY - Pat Boone (Dot)
> >> > > >
> >> > > > Yuh-yeah, you got me there Bruce. Uh-huh, you did, you did.
> >> > >
> >> > > The public chose.
> >> >
> >> > Earth to Bruce: it's 9 points higher on the BB charts that week. LR's version peaked at #6, Boone's at #8.
> >> >
> >> > Another resounding Whoop-de-damn-do.
> >>
> >> It was #8 on the jukebox list. It only got to #18 on the overall Top 100.
> >
> >Not according to Wikipedia.
>
> Your valued resource until it isn't

For chart positions, it's usually pretty good.

The articles can often be slanted by the prejudices of the author.

> >> On the sales chart the Boone got to a wopping #23, with Little Richard getting to #6.
> >>
> >
> >#23 is pretty darned impressive.
>
> #6 is three+ times more impressive. Especially, according to you, by
> a obscure black singer.

Little Richard was black?

[RWC]

I didn't help with the 'lame' and 'gutsy' words used, but nevertheless you have
a short memory. I've very recently defined, or at least well described, these
two terms, and it has nothing to do with my personal taste - I like both types
of rock anyway.

Let me try again, Mike:

What I have done, is to distinguish "rock'n'roll" music from "rock
and roll" music. I see nothing "odd" about perceiving a difference between the

innocent rock and roll music of Pat Boone and the threatening (to conservative
white middle-class parents) rock'n'roll music of Little Richard.


Geoff

[BobbyM]

Geoff, I see nothing odd about you perceiving a difference in the musical styles but the titles you've chosen are confusing to everyone but yourself. As I'm sure you're aware, the written word is actually a symbolic representation of the spoken word. If you were to speak either of your labelled phrases, a listener would find it next to impossible to differentiate one from the other. Do you really expect anyone in this group to remember the codes that you've decided to assign?

[Michael Pendragon]

On Thursday, July 28, 2016 at 9:16:17 PM UTC-4, RWC wrote:
> On Thu, 28 Jul 2016 10:09:53 -0700 (PDT), Michael Pendragon
> <michaelmalef...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >On Thursday, July 28, 2016 at 12:02:43 AM UTC-4, RWC wrote:
>
> >> What I have done, is to distinguish "rock'n'roll" music from "rock
> >> and roll" music. I see nothing "odd" about perceiving a difference between the
> >> relatively lame rock and roll music of Pat Boone and the gutsy rock'n'roll music
> >> of (your nemeses) Little Richard.
> >
> >As noted, I see nothing wrong with this either -- so long as the line reflects your personal taste, and is not meant to serve as a general definition.
>
> I didn't help with the 'lame' and 'gutsy' words used, but nevertheless you have
> a short memory. I've very recently defined, or at least well described, these
> two terms, and it has nothing to do with my personal taste - I like both types
> of rock anyway.

Geoff, I know that it has nothing to do with your personal taste.

I said that *if* (hypothetically) you were to sub-divide r'n'r according to your personal taste, I wouldn't have a problem with your doing so.

My problem is that you're presenting your sub-division as some sort of objective, authoritative, and hereafter to be recognized by all definition.

> Let me try again, Mike:
>
> What I have done, is to distinguish "rock'n'roll" music from "rock
> and roll" music. I see nothing "odd" about perceiving a difference between the
> innocent rock and roll music of Pat Boone and the threatening (to conservative
> white middle-class parents) rock'n'roll music of Little Richard.

Perception is subjective. Is LR threatening because he's black or because he's a flame? Is his music more threatening because he shrieks, screeches and "woo-woo's" his way through it? Lyrically his "Tutti Frutti" is censored as Boone's.

Nor do I see how you're going to determine which r'n'r are threatening and which rock and roll records are not. According to your original post, you seem to be basing the threat on the artist's persona. Was Buddy Holly with his eye glasses and hiccups threatening? Was Chuck Berry threatening (prior to his arrest for transporting minors)?

AFAICS rock 'n' roll records are a mix Pop and R&B or of Pop and Hillbilly. Some are heavier on the Pop portion than others. But they're all still r'n'r. Pat Boone's r'n'r records are more clearly enunciated than LR's, sung in key and on the beat throughout, and have better sax breaks. If you want to call them Pop-Rock (as differentiated from LR's Pop-R&B-Rock), fine. But base it on the music, not the fact that Pat wears a Letter jacked and white bucks and LR wears false eyelashes and a beehive.

[SavoyBG]

On Thursday, July 28, 2016 at 10:11:50 PM UTC-4, Michael Pendragon wrote:

> have better sax breaks.

ROFL

[Michael Pendragon]

Did you even listen to "Tutti Frutti"? He's backed by Billy Vaughn's ork and the sax kicks.

[SavoyBG]

Yes, Billy Vaughn's orchestra is much better known for great sax breaks than Lee Allen.

[Michael Pendragon]

I don't know if Vaughn's ork is known for sax breaks, but they provide some killer orchestration (I've got 295 tracks by them) on a lot of great Dot Records.

Never heard of Lee Allen.

[SavoyBG]

I'm not surprised.

[SavoyBG]

He recorded with the Stray Cats, and was an invaluable mentor and eventual member of The Blasters.

[SavoyBG]

Setzer originally wanted the sax player from Billy Vaughn's killer orchestra, but when he was not interested, Brian had to settle for Lee Allen.

[Roger Ford]

On Thu, 28 Jul 2016 20:38:16 -0700 (PDT), SavoyBG <Sav...@aol.com>

wrote:

>On Thursday, July 28, 2016 at 11:27:22 PM UTC-4, Michael Pendragon wrote:
>> On Thursday, July 28, 2016 at 10:32:59 PM UTC-4, SavoyBG wrote:
>> > On Thursday, July 28, 2016 at 10:11:50 PM UTC-4, Michael Pendragon wrote:
>> >
>> > > have better sax breaks.
>> >
>> > ROFL
>>
>> Did you even listen to "Tutti Frutti"? He's backed by Billy Vaughn's ork and the sax kicks.
>
>Yes, Billy Vaughn's orchestra is much better known for great sax breaks than Lee Allen.

Ha ha!!

But just who is that playing sax on the Boone version?

My money is on jazzman Joe Daley who held his nose and played on a
host of Boone stuff from that period including "Ain't That A Shame"

ROGER FORD
-----------------------

"Spam Free Zone" - to combat unwanted automatic spamming I have added
an extra "b" in my e-mail address (mari...@bblueyonder.co.uk).
Please delete same before responding.Thank you!

[Unknown]

On Thu, 28 Jul 2016 10:12:51 -0700 (PDT), Michael Pendragon
<michaelmalef...@gmail.com> wrote:

>For chart positions, it's usually pretty good.

Usually is the operative world.

>
>The articles can often be slanted by the prejudices of the author.
>
>> >> On the sales chart the Boone got to a wopping #23, with Little Richard getting to #6.
>> >>
>> >
>> >#23 is pretty darned impressive.
>>
>> #6 is three+ times more impressive. Especially, according to you, by
>> a obscure black singer.
>
>Little Richard was black?

You didn't know your father was Black?

[Michael Pendragon]

Psst -- Dud -- Little Richard is gay.

[RWC]

On Thu, 28 Jul 2016 18:49:42 -0700 (PDT), BobbyM <massey...@gmail.com> wrote:


>Geoff, I see nothing odd about you perceiving a difference in the musical styles but the titles you've chosen are confusing to everyone but yourself. As I'm sure you're aware, the written word is actually a symbolic representation of the spoken word. If you were to speak either of your labelled phrases, a listener would find it next to impossible to differentiate one from the other. Do you really expect anyone in this group to remember the codes that you've decided to assign?
>

Thanks for your comments, Bobby.

Strictly speaking these two titles are spoken differently by people with careful
diction ('n', 'and'). But when spoken casually and quickly, you're right.

But anyway, in this newsgroup environment, the *typed* word/phrase rules.

Yes, people could remember the two codes/titles with ease - if they were
motivated.

Broadly speaking, the two titles/codes serve to meaningfully differentiate
between the 'white' rock music of circa 1956 from the tamer and more
sophisticated pop-rock of the cusp period.

For me, the quintessential performer of rock'n'roll was Gene Vincent with those
Capitol studio arrangements and sound engineering.


Geoff

[Unknown]

On Fri, 29 Jul 2016 06:25:24 -0700 (PDT), Michael Pendragon

<michaelmalef...@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Friday, July 29, 2016 at 9:16:18 AM UTC-4, nor...@googlegroups.com wrote:
>> On Thu, 28 Jul 2016 10:12:51 -0700 (PDT), Michael Pendragon
>> <michaelmalef...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> >For chart positions, it's usually pretty good.
>>
>> Usually is the operative world.
>> >
>> >The articles can often be slanted by the prejudices of the author.
>> >
>> >> >> On the sales chart the Boone got to a wopping #23, with Little Richard getting to #6.
>> >> >>
>> >> >
>> >> >#23 is pretty darned impressive.
>> >>
>> >> #6 is three+ times more impressive. Especially, according to you, by
>> >> a obscure black singer.
>> >
>> >Little Richard was black?
>>
>> You didn't know your father was Black?
>
>Psst -- Dud -- Little Richard is gay.

Among others:
Rock Hudson was married
James McGreevey was married
You supposedly are married.

Little Richard had a girlfriend Audrey Robinson and was married to
Ernestine Campbell for four years. "He participated in a hosts of
orgies throughout the '50s where apparently some straight sex slipped
in."

"Sometimes, he's called himself "omnisexual," and at other times --
like when he became a born-again Christian -- he's claimed to be
heterosexual. "

It was doing your mother that turned him gay.

[SavoyBG]

פט בון לוקח את זה בתחת !

[Michael Pendragon]

Gee, Dud. You could know enough about his sex life to write a book.

[RWC]

On Thu, 28 Jul 2016 19:11:49 -0700 (PDT), Michael Pendragon
<michaelmalef...@gmail.com> wrote:

Re: describing the name/term/title/code "Rock 'n' Roll" as a distinctive
sub-genre of "Rock and Roll".

>Geoff, I know that it has nothing to do with your personal taste.
>

I see that now.

>I said that *if* (hypothetically) you were to sub-divide r'n'r according to your personal taste, I wouldn't have a problem with your doing so.
>
>My problem is that you're presenting your sub-division as some sort of objective, authoritative, and hereafter to be recognized by all definition.
>

Mike, I think you're misinterpreting my confident approach as being
'authoritative'. It's a lot more modest than that. I'm simply promoting the
idea of a separate and meaningful sub-genre, rock 'n' roll, for rock and roll
music that has an authentic 'raw' ambience (as perceived hopefully by a good
percentage of people interested in 50s rock), to distinguish it from other rock
and roll music that *comes across* as being, relatively tame, or
artificial/unauthentic, or classic Pop influenced.

That leaves one to explain 'raw'. I'll rely on an intuitive understanding for
now, but it does suggest a lack of a more polished classic Pop influence.

>> What I have done, is to distinguish "rock'n'roll" music from "rock
>> and roll" music. I see nothing "odd" about perceiving a difference between the
>> innocent rock and roll music of Pat Boone and the threatening (to conservative
>> white middle-class parents) rock'n'roll music of Little Richard.
>
>Perception is subjective. Is LR threatening because he's black or because he's a flame? Is his music more threatening because he shrieks, screeches and "woo-woo's" his way through it?

Neither you nor I know for sure what exactly went thru the minds of
'conservative, white middle class parents' when they listened to the records of
Little Richard and other "rock 'n' roll" artists. Read on.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

However, here is some very convincing evidence, from circa 1958, that
rock'n'roll was perceived as a 'threat' - "the musical noise symptomatic of a
decadent and irresponsible youth":
** https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zNoO775HYqM **
In this video we have:

. A youngish evangelical, Rev Jimmy Snow, who knows "the evil feeling you feel
when you sing it, the lost position you get into in the beat"
. The Alabama White Citizens Council - "We've set up a 20-man committee to do
away with this vulgar, animalistic, nigger rock and roll bop" {it being a threat
to segregation and worse it seems}
. A middle-aged DJ imperiously announcing "Rock and roll has to go", as he
proceeds to take a shellac record off the studio turntable and throw it to the
floor, smashing it

and we see printed media headlines such as:

. "Does Rock and Roll Cause Delinquency?"
. "Songwriter Blasts Today's 'Trashy' Music"
. "MUSIC OR MADNESS? Rock and roll music has stirred up a whirlwind of adult
protest"
. "Teenage Music Craze Has Parents Worried - We're losing control of our own
children!"
. Comment from a middle-aged guy (quite possibly the parent of a teenager):
"I've been looking into this rock and roll music, and it disgusts me"

An Internet search would likely allow one to expand on these statements.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This 'ambience of authentic rawness' notion gives me/us a simpler and broader
net in which to capture rock 'n' roll music - although by itself, this still
does not completely define the music I have in mind:
There are one or two qualifications, for one it must be perceived as being
targeted primarily at teens and not have significant 'conservative' elements,
which means for instance, that rockabilly with fiddles or rockabilly with a
significant hillbilly or country flavor does not qualify as rock 'n' roll.

For comparison purposes, Gene Vincent is the architypal exponent of rock 'n'
roll; LR has a stronger R&B flavor, JLL a stronger Country flavor, and so on.

>Nor do I see how you're going to determine which r'n'r are threatening and which rock and roll records are not. According to your original post, you seem to be basing the threat on the artist's persona.

An artist's persona is mostly garnered from the aural nature of their
recordings. Photos of an artist would usually validate or amplify this persona,
but recordings rule.

> Was Buddy Holly with his eye glasses and hiccups threatening?

His non-pop recordings, yes. "Rave On", the title, the lyrics ("the way you
dance and hold me tight") and the punchy style of singing, does suggest a
decadent and wayward youth, does it not?

> Was Chuck Berry threatening (prior to his arrest for transporting minors)?

Ask the Alabama White Citizens Council. (is this an example of black humor? :-)

>
>AFAICS rock 'n' roll records are a mix Pop and R&B or of Pop and Hillbilly.

Some rock and roll records perhaps, but not rock 'n' roll records.

Rock 'n' roll "drew on country, gospel, the Delta blues, and the R&B coming out
of Northern ghettos".

> Pat Boone's r'n'r records are more clearly enunciated than LR's, sung in key and on the beat throughout

Pat Boone never released a rock 'n' roll record. Your description tends to
indicate a polished Pop influence. Some of his covers might be rock and roll
thanks to their R&B-Rock *heritage*.

>If you want to call them Pop-Rock (as differentiated from LR's Pop-R&B-Rock), fine.

Pop-R&B-Rock is better applied to Pat Boone's "Long Tall Sally"
LR's "Long Tall Sally" had no measurable Pop in it.

>But base it on the music, not the fact that Pat wears a Letter jacked and white bucks and LR wears false eyelashes and a beehive.

A no-brainer. These facts are irrelevant. Would you believe, it's "what comes
out of the speakers" :-)

Mike, this is the mainstream backdrop to the persona and actual recording style
of Pat Boone - and this includes his uptempo rock and roll records:
(found at http://www.history-of-rock.com/1950s.htm )
"Post World War II was a prosperous and confident America. Middle class white
Americans began flocking to the new suburbs in pursuit of their dreams. There,
they found nice houses in pleasant neighborhoods where there was no need to lock
ones doors. An ideal atmosphere to raise children with neighbors functioning
much as an extended family. The TV show "Here Comes the Nelsons " typified such
families. The songs of the early{-mid} fifties reflected this and generally had
light melodies, sweet lyrics and wholesome singers. Innocent and inoffensive
"feel-good" tunes, which genuinely reflected the mood of post World War II
America {for this middle-class demographic}."


Geoff

[Michael Pendragon]

On Monday, August 1, 2016 at 4:29:12 AM UTC-4, RWC wrote:
> On Thu, 28 Jul 2016 19:11:49 -0700 (PDT), Michael Pendragon
> <michaelmalef...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Re: describing the name/term/title/code "Rock 'n' Roll" as a distinctive
> sub-genre of "Rock and Roll".
>
> >Geoff, I know that it has nothing to do with your personal taste.
> >
> I see that now.
>
> >I said that *if* (hypothetically) you were to sub-divide r'n'r according to your personal taste, I wouldn't have a problem with your doing so.
> >
> >My problem is that you're presenting your sub-division as some sort of objective, authoritative, and hereafter to be recognized by all definition.
> >
> Mike, I think you're misinterpreting my confident approach as being
> 'authoritative'. It's a lot more modest than that. I'm simply promoting the
> idea of a separate and meaningful sub-genre, rock 'n' roll, for rock and roll
> music that has an authentic 'raw' ambience (as perceived hopefully by a good
> percentage of people interested in 50s rock), to distinguish it from other rock
> and roll music that *comes across* as being, relatively tame, or
> artificial/unauthentic, or classic Pop influenced.

Well, I can't agree with your choice of adjectives ("tame," "artificial/unauthentic"), but I'm willing to sub-divide Rock 'n' Roll into sub-genres: Pop-Rock, R&B-Rock, and RAB.

> That leaves one to explain 'raw'. I'll rely on an intuitive understanding for
> now, but it does suggest a lack of a more polished classic Pop influence.
>
> >> What I have done, is to distinguish "rock'n'roll" music from "rock
> >> and roll" music. I see nothing "odd" about perceiving a difference between the
> >> innocent rock and roll music of Pat Boone and the threatening (to conservative
> >> white middle-class parents) rock'n'roll music of Little Richard.
> >
> >Perception is subjective. Is LR threatening because he's black or because he's a flame? Is his music more threatening because he shrieks, screeches and "woo-woo's" his way through it?
>
> Neither you nor I know for sure what exactly went thru the minds of
> 'conservative, white middle class parents' when they listened to the records of
> Little Richard and other "rock 'n' roll" artists. Read on.

They probably covered their ears and hollered to their kids to "Turn that SH_T down!!!"

>
> However, here is some very convincing evidence, from circa 1958, that
> rock'n'roll was perceived as a 'threat' - "the musical noise symptomatic of a
> decadent and irresponsible youth":
> ** https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zNoO775HYqM **
> In this video we have:
>
> . A youngish evangelical, Rev Jimmy Snow, who knows "the evil feeling you feel
> when you sing it, the lost position you get into in the beat"
> . The Alabama White Citizens Council - "We've set up a 20-man committee to do
> away with this vulgar, animalistic, nigger rock and roll bop" {it being a threat
> to segregation and worse it seems}

Now, you see this isn't about the music, but the race of the musicians. The same racists attacked "The Nat "King" Cole Show" (and physically attacked Nat himself) for similar reasons.

> . A middle-aged DJ imperiously announcing "Rock and roll has to go", as he
> proceeds to take a shellac record off the studio turntable and throw it to the
> floor, smashing it

The majority of early r'n'r records were ... dire. They were playing 50s & 60s r'n'r in the Palisades Shop Rite today, and I couldn't help noticing how awful most of it was: "Speedo," "The Name of the Place is I Like It Like That" ... lyrically, they sound like something a child threw together.

> and we see printed media headlines such as:
>
> . "Does Rock and Roll Cause Delinquency?"

"Blackboard Jungle" holdover. First impressions, and all that.

> . "Songwriter Blasts Today's 'Trashy' Music"

With good reason. Gershwin it ain't.

> . "MUSIC OR MADNESS? Rock and roll music has stirred up a whirlwind of adult
> protest"

I protested as well ... as a kid. It was only when I became a teenager, that I developed a liking for it. A liking that his been slowly, but steadily diminishing since I hit my late 20s.

> . "Teenage Music Craze Has Parents Worried - We're losing control of our own
> children!"

Sensationalistic hysteria.

> . Comment from a middle-aged guy (quite possibly the parent of a teenager):
> "I've been looking into this rock and roll music, and it disgusts me"

Returning to my Shop Rite excursion today ... "Searchin'" was terrible ... a step or two away from Rap. Rap disgusts me, and not just because of the language or anti-social statements (I rarely understand what they're saying anyway). I'm disgusted by Rap because it sounds like barking dogs. Perhaps the middle-aged guy was responding the same way.

> An Internet search would likely allow one to expand on these statements.
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> This 'ambience of authentic rawness' notion gives me/us a simpler and broader
> net in which to capture rock 'n' roll music - although by itself, this still
> does not completely define the music I have in mind:
> There are one or two qualifications, for one it must be perceived as being
> targeted primarily at teens and not have significant 'conservative' elements,
> which means for instance, that rockabilly with fiddles or rockabilly with a
> significant hillbilly or country flavor does not qualify as rock 'n' roll.
>
> For comparison purposes, Gene Vincent is the architypal exponent of rock 'n'
> roll; LR has a stronger R&B flavor, JLL a stronger Country flavor, and so on.

I thought Gene Vincent was RAB.

I'd say that the archetypal r'n'r artist was Elvis.
LR has a stronger R&B flavor, and JLL is RAB.

> >Nor do I see how you're going to determine which r'n'r are threatening and which rock and roll records are not. According to your original post, you seem to be basing the threat on the artist's persona.
>
> An artist's persona is mostly garnered from the aural nature of their
> recordings. Photos of an artist would usually validate or amplify this persona,
> but recordings rule.

Nah. If Pat Boone had dressed like (the 50s equivalent) of his Metal album, folks would've perceived his music very differently.

> > Was Buddy Holly with his eye glasses and hiccups threatening?
>
> His non-pop recordings, yes. "Rave On", the title, the lyrics ("the way you
> dance and hold me tight") and the punchy style of singing, does suggest a
> decadent and wayward youth, does it not?

"Rave On" is my favorite Buddy Holly. I consider it more Pop than most of his other records. [NOTE: I'm not calling it Pop-Rock, it's kickass r'n'r, but it comes more from the a Pop heritage than an R&B one. An example of the latter would be his "Slippin' & Slidin'," which I don't care for at all.]

> > Was Chuck Berry threatening (prior to his arrest for transporting minors)?
>
> Ask the Alabama White Citizens Council. (is this an example of black humor? :-)
> >
> >AFAICS rock 'n' roll records are a mix Pop and R&B or of Pop and Hillbilly.
>
> Some rock and roll records perhaps, but not rock 'n' roll records.

How 'bout: All rock and roll records, but no RAB or R&B.

> Rock 'n' roll "drew on country, gospel, the Delta blues, and the R&B coming out
> of Northern ghettos".

You're talking about R&B-Rock and RAB. You're cutting out huge r'n'r hits like "At the Hop," and limiting "r'n'r" to a 2-year period of relevancy (chartwise), 1956 and 1957.

> > Pat Boone's r'n'r records are more clearly enunciated than LR's, sung in key and on the beat throughout
>
> Pat Boone never released a rock 'n' roll record. Your description tends to
> indicate a polished Pop influence. Some of his covers might be rock and roll
> thanks to their R&B-Rock *heritage*.

Billboard thought differently.

> >If you want to call them Pop-Rock (as differentiated from LR's Pop-R&B-Rock), fine.
>
> Pop-R&B-Rock is better applied to Pat Boone's "Long Tall Sally"
> LR's "Long Tall Sally" had no measurable Pop in it.

LR's "LTS" is mostly R&B; but it is sung on the beat (unlike the majority of R&B songs).

> >But base it on the music, not the fact that Pat wears a Letter jacked and white bucks and LR wears false eyelashes and a beehive.
>
> A no-brainer. These facts are irrelevant. Would you believe, it's "what comes
> out of the speakers" :-)

IMO Pat Boone's masculine voice is more "threatening" than LR's shrieking.

> Mike, this is the mainstream backdrop to the persona and actual recording style
> of Pat Boone - and this includes his uptempo rock and roll records:
> (found at http://www.history-of-rock.com/1950s.htm )
> "Post World War II was a prosperous and confident America. Middle class white
> Americans began flocking to the new suburbs in pursuit of their dreams. There,
> they found nice houses in pleasant neighborhoods where there was no need to lock
> ones doors. An ideal atmosphere to raise children with neighbors functioning
> much as an extended family. The TV show "Here Comes the Nelsons " typified such
> families. The songs of the early{-mid} fifties reflected this and generally had
> light melodies, sweet lyrics and wholesome singers. Innocent and inoffensive
> "feel-good" tunes, which genuinely reflected the mood of post World War II
> America {for this middle-class demographic}."

It's wrong. WWII left many Americans (returning vets especially) feeling angry, disenfranchised, and disillusioned; as did the Cold War. Film Noir was the cinema's way of exploring these feelings. Early 50s music split between the idealized world of the past (pre-WWI) and the edgier sounds of Frankie Laine, Johnnie Ray, Kay Starr, et al. But the Korean Conflict was also hiding just beneath a lot of the hits from 1950-53. It's never explicitly mentioned, but try listening to the songs with the Korean Conflict in mind: "You Belong to Me," "Wish You Were Here," etc.

[Frank]

IMO Pat Boone's masculine voice is more "threatening" than LR's shrieking.

Mike, seriously?

Frankie Laine had a masculine voice. Vaughn Monroe did. Sammy Davis Jr. did. Boone had a nice, sweet voice but I doubt if he'd make a list, even 100 deep of most "masculine" voices.

His voice was as threatening as a snow flake

[Michael Pendragon]

I'm not putting his voice on a par with rugged "He-Man" singers like Laine or Monroe, or Johnny Cash, Lorne Greene, Tennessee Ernie. I'm just saying that his voice is certainly 1000x more masculine than LR's.

IMO, Pat's "Don't Forbid Me" presents a greater "threat" (to the chastity of one's teenage daughter) than LR's "woo-wooing" and "whop-bop-a-loo-bop"s. He's got a strong, rich baritone on that one, and the lyrics are far more "suggestive" than "Tutti Frutti."

Don't forbid me to hold you tight
A-darlin', don't-a forbid me to hold you tight
Let me hold you in my lovin' arms
'Cause it's cold and I can keep you warm

A-don't-a forbid me to kiss your lips
A-darlin' don't-a forbid me to kiss your lips
Let me kiss you
Please, baby, please
'Cause it's cold and your lips might freeze

Well, there's a strong West wind a-blowin'
And there's a big blue moon above
And, pretty baby, I've been knowin'
You need some heart-warmin' love

So don't-a forbid me to talk sweet talk
A-Darlin' don't-a forbid me to talk sweet talk
Let-a me fill your little heart with fire
'Cause it's cold, so don't forbid my desire

It's so cold (it's so cold)
So don't forbid-a my desire
(Don't forbid my desire)

[Frank]

BTW, after that balloon crashed and killed all 16 people, one of the cable news stations said Debbie Boone was in the balloon, but they were obviously mistaken.

[RWC]

On Mon, 1 Aug 2016 18:47:49 -0700 (PDT), Michael Pendragon
<michaelmalef...@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Monday, August 1, 2016 at 8:51:31 PM UTC-4, Frank wrote:
>> IMO Pat Boone's masculine voice is more "threatening" than LR's shrieking.
>>
>> Mike, seriously?
>>
>> Frankie Laine had a masculine voice. Vaughn Monroe did. Sammy Davis Jr. did. Boone had a nice, sweet voice but I doubt if he'd make a list, even 100 deep of most "masculine" voices.
>>
>> His voice was as threatening as a snow flake
>
>I'm not putting his voice on a par with rugged "He-Man" singers like Laine or Monroe, or Johnny Cash, Lorne Greene, Tennessee Ernie. I'm just saying that his voice is certainly 1000x more masculine than LR's.
>
>IMO, Pat's "Don't Forbid Me" presents a greater "threat" (to the chastity of one's teenage daughter) than LR's "woo-wooing" and "whop-bop-a-loo-bop"s. He's got a strong, rich baritone on that one, and the lyrics are far more "suggestive" than "Tutti Frutti."

You might fool 'innocent' Frank, Mike (well, he hasn't responded).

No way, does Pat Boone present any "threat" with "Don't Forbid Me" - I'm
listening to this very pleasant *airy* record right now.

His 'snow flake' (ie *not* strong and rich) baritone singing would cause parents
to perceive the lyrics as nothing more than romantic.

Are you delusional, or are you playing with us, Mike?


Geoff :-)

[Michael Pendragon]

I hear the song as being openly about sex. It's similar to Elvis' "Don't," only Elvis sounds more passive than Pat.

[Frank]

On Tuesday, August 2, 2016 at 12:03:48 AM UTC-4, RWC wrote:

Trust me Geoff. He's not "fooling" me nor anyone else.

[Unknown]

Pinhead doesn't understand it wasn't lyrics that they found
threatening but the "jungle rhythms."
>
>
>Geoff :-)

[Unknown]

On Mon, 1 Aug 2016 18:47:49 -0700 (PDT), Michael Pendragon
<michaelmalef...@gmail.com> wrote:

>Don't forbid me to hold you tight
>A-darlin', don't-a forbid me to hold you tight
>Let me hold you in my lovin' arms
>'Cause it's cold and I can keep you warm
>
>A-don't-a forbid me to kiss your lips
>A-darlin' don't-a forbid me to kiss your lips
>Let me kiss you
>Please, baby, please
>'Cause it's cold and your lips might freeze
>
>Well, there's a strong West wind a-blowin'
>And there's a big blue moon above
>And, pretty baby, I've been knowin'
>You need some heart-warmin' love
>
>So don't-a forbid me to talk sweet talk
>A-Darlin' don't-a forbid me to talk sweet talk
>Let-a me fill your little heart with fire
>'Cause it's cold, so don't forbid my desire
>
>It's so cold (it's so cold)
>So don't forbid-a my desire
>(Don't forbid my desire)

Did Shirley know about her husband singing about such filth?

[Michael Pendragon]

You think sex is "filth," Dud?

Figures.