High altitude squeezebox playing
DoN. Nichols
playing a Bandoneon on Mars in a tent city (which increases the
atmospheric pressure over that outside, but not *that* much.)
And -- I'm wondering whether anyone has experience with playing
any form of squeezebox at high altitudes. Places like Pike's Peak come
to mind -- though that is still well over the pressure in use at this
point in the story.
I would expect the volume to be lower, and a *lot* more bellows
travel to be required to get *any* sound out of the reeds. But -- I've
never been in a position to try it with one of my concertinas, so I
decided to toss out the question here where squeezebox players of all
sort gather.
Thanks,
DoN.
--
Email: <dnic...@d-and-d.com> | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---
Paul Hardy on Individual.net
news:e9opg...@news1.newsguy.com...
> O.K. I've been reading a work of Science Fiction which includes someone
> playing a Bandoneon on Mars in a tent city (which increases the
> atmospheric pressure over that outside, but not *that* much.)
>
> And -- I'm wondering whether anyone has experience with playing
> any form of squeezebox at high altitudes. Places like Pike's Peak come
> to mind -- though that is still well over the pressure in use at this
> point in the story.
>
> I would expect the volume to be lower, and a *lot* more bellows
> travel to be required to get *any* sound out of the reeds. But -- I've
> never been in a position to try it with one of my concertinas, so I
> decided to toss out the question here where squeezebox players of all
> sort gather.
>
> Thanks,
> DoN.
I play my English concertina at a Celtic Jam session held on the second
Saturday of every month at Green Valley Lake in the San Bernardino mountains
of southern California (http://www.green-valley-lake.com/). This is at 7000
feet so nearly a mile and a half high - well over 2000 metres
When I first attended, I wondered if the altitude would make any
difference - but I can't say that I notice anything. Perhaps I automatically
squeeze harder to get a constant volume. It doesn't seem to appreciably
slower to speak.
I'm talking about a steel-reeded Lachenal
(http://www.hardy.demon.co.uk/concertina/lachenal_58748/lachenal.html), and
now I think about it, on the odd occasion that I've tried my brass-reeded
Wheatstone
(http://www.hardy.demon.co.uk/concertina/wheatstone_8461/wheatstone.html),
it has been too quiet to be heard in the jam mix (but that might have been
the case at sea level).
Wikipedia says that "As a rule of thumb, the pressure decreases by about 1%
for every 80 metres increase in altitude." So the pressure at GVL will be
about 25% less - certainly sufficient to make one short of breath when
hiking, but not drastic on a concertina.
The local highest peak is San Gorgonio, at about 12,000 feet, but it's an
11-mile hike to reach it through the wilderness (and 11 miles back), so I
don't propose going to try the tina there. The highest road nearby is the
Onyx pass at 8,000 feet.
Pikes Peak is above 14,000 feet, so presumably there the pressure would be
down towards half sea level and may be more noticeable. I'm going to
Colorado in September but don't know if I'll get to PP. If it looks likely
I'll take a tina and report back.
Any other high-level squeezers out there?
--
Paul Hardy
Email: paul at the hardy.demon.co.uk domain
In exile in Redlands, CA, USA
rod...@mont-alto.com
DoN. Nichols wrote:
> And -- I'm wondering whether anyone has experience with playing
> any form of squeezebox at high altitudes. Places like Pike's Peak come
> to mind -- though that is still well over the pressure in use at this
> point in the story.
>
> I would expect the volume to be lower, and a *lot* more bellows
> travel to be required to get *any* sound out of the reeds. But -- I've
> never been in a position to try it with one of my concertinas, so I
> decided to toss out the question here where squeezebox players of all
> sort gather.
I've played for Morris dancers at 11,000 feet (on Trail Ridge Road
through Rocky Mountain National Park) and to be honest, it didn't feel
substantially different than my usual altitude (5500) and I can't say
I've noticed a difference at sea level either. Then again, I haven't
done quantitative measurements, nor paid close attention, since it
didn't occur to me. And it's not the most bellows---tight accordion, a
premium instrument might tell the difference more. (The accordion in
question is a 40-bass P.A. with no register switches).
Since air is mostly N2, which is a pretty ideal gas, the ideal gas law
should apply.
PV = nRT,
where r is the gas constant, P is your pressure, V is volume, n is the
number of molecules, T is temperature. Temperature is in Kelvin, so
there's likely only a few-percent variation despite it often being
colder at high altitude.
Also, V is the same (or, at least, change in V from in- to out-bellows
should be the same), so this implies that for each percent drop in
pressure, there's an equivalent percentage drop in the number of air
molecules that travel past your reeds as you go from max volume to min
volume.
>From this highly simplistic analysis, I'd predict that you could keep
the loudness of your instrument about the same by applying the same
amount of pressure, but you'd run out of bellows sooner.
Interesting question.
Rodney
Don Tuite
wrote:
>O.K. I've been reading a work of Science Fiction which includes someone
>playing a Bandoneon on Mars in a tent city (which increases the
>atmospheric pressure over that outside, but not *that* much.)
>
> And -- I'm wondering whether anyone has experience with playing
>any form of squeezebox at high altitudes. Places like Pike's Peak come
>to mind -- though that is still well over the pressure in use at this
>point in the story.
>
> I would expect the volume to be lower, and a *lot* more bellows
>travel to be required to get *any* sound out of the reeds. But -- I've
>never been in a position to try it with one of my concertinas, so I
>decided to toss out the question here where squeezebox players of all
>sort gather.
>
Not a squeezebox, but I've played my diatonic harmonica inside the
icecaves on top of Titlis, 3200 meters. Rather a live room. Required
more huffing and pufing than at sea level, but not as much as a
chromatic at SL.
Don
DoN. Nichols
> "DoN. Nichols" <dnic...@d-and-d.com> wrote in message
> news:e9opg...@news1.newsguy.com...
> > O.K. I've been reading a work of Science Fiction which includes someone
> > playing a Bandoneon on Mars in a tent city (which increases the
> > atmospheric pressure over that outside, but not *that* much.)
> >
> > And -- I'm wondering whether anyone has experience with playing
> > any form of squeezebox at high altitudes. Places like Pike's Peak come
[ ... ]
> > I would expect the volume to be lower, and a *lot* more bellows
> > travel to be required to get *any* sound out of the reeds. But -- I've
[ ... ]
> I play my English concertina at a Celtic Jam session held on the second
> Saturday of every month at Green Valley Lake in the San Bernardino mountains
> of southern California (http://www.green-valley-lake.com/). This is at 7000
> feet so nearly a mile and a half high - well over 2000 metres
O.K. From the graph I found looking up Pike's Peak pressure,
7000 feet would be pretty close to 790 mb (with normal sea-level
atmospheric pressure being 1000 mb).
Pike's Peak gets you down to around 600 mb, so it is a
significant dip below where you have been playing.
The top of Everest seems to be around 410 mb, so yet another
significant dip.
And the story would probably have it at around 250 mb -- with
elevated oxygen to make up for the lower pressure. (I'll possibly get a
chance to talk to the author later this summer, and intend to ask him
just what the pressure was at that time in the storyline.)
> When I first attended, I wondered if the altitude would make any
> difference - but I can't say that I notice anything. Perhaps I automatically
> squeeze harder to get a constant volume. It doesn't seem to appreciably
> slower to speak.
So -- you were already considering that there might be problems,
so you would be sensitive to them.
> I'm talking about a steel-reeded Lachenal
> (http://www.hardy.demon.co.uk/concertina/lachenal_58748/lachenal.html), and
Nice photo spread on the instrument on that web page.
Exercising the formula to guess the age from the serial number,
that one should be from about 1926. A pretty good period for both
Lachenal and Wheatstone instruments.
> now I think about it, on the odd occasion that I've tried my brass-reeded
> Wheatstone
> (http://www.hardy.demon.co.uk/concertina/wheatstone_8461/wheatstone.html),
> it has been too quiet to be heard in the jam mix (but that might have been
> the case at sea level).
It probably would have been, since that one has the wooden
baffle which was common on the "learner" models.
And by the serial number, that one would date from about 1861.
> Wikipedia says that "As a rule of thumb, the pressure decreases by about 1%
> for every 80 metres increase in altitude." So the pressure at GVL will be
> about 25% less - certainly sufficient to make one short of breath when
> hiking, but not drastic on a concertina.
And the last time that I was at about 11,000 feet (the airport
in Quito Ecuador) I did not have a concertina, let alone the thought of
testing one. That was a *long* time ago. :-)
> The local highest peak is San Gorgonio, at about 12,000 feet, but it's an
> 11-mile hike to reach it through the wilderness (and 11 miles back), so I
> don't propose going to try the tina there. The highest road nearby is the
> Onyx pass at 8,000 feet.
I can understand the lack of motivation there.
> Pikes Peak is above 14,000 feet, so presumably there the pressure would be
> down towards half sea level and may be more noticeable. I'm going to
> Colorado in September but don't know if I'll get to PP. If it looks likely
> I'll take a tina and report back.
Thanks!
> Any other high-level squeezers out there?
There is already one other reply, which I have not yet looked
at.
Thanks much,
DoN. Nichols
>
> DoN. Nichols wrote:
> > And -- I'm wondering whether anyone has experience with playing
> > any form of squeezebox at high altitudes. Places like Pike's Peak come
[ ... ]
> > I would expect the volume to be lower, and a *lot* more bellows
> > travel to be required to get *any* sound out of the reeds. But -- I've
[ ... ]
> I've played for Morris dancers at 11,000 feet (on Trail Ridge Road
> through Rocky Mountain National Park) and to be honest, it didn't feel
> substantially different than my usual altitude (5500)
O.K. Working from the graph on the Pikes Peak page
<http://www.skyrunner.com/story/pikespeako2.htm>
altitude pressure
========================================
11,000 feet 780 mb
5,500 feet 830 mb
sea level 1000 mb
So your change from 5,500 feet to 11,000 feet is less of a
change than from seal level to your 5,500 feet, so I would not expect
you to notice it anyway. Now, if you were normally at sea level, and
went to 11,000 feet, that would be a good start -- though I think that
the pressure at the point in the story would be somewhat less that 250
mb -- with higher percentage oxygen to make up for the lower pressure.
> and I can't say
> I've noticed a difference at sea level either. Then again, I haven't
> done quantitative measurements, nor paid close attention, since it
> didn't occur to me. And it's not the most bellows---tight accordion, a
> premium instrument might tell the difference more. (The accordion in
> question is a 40-bass P.A. with no register switches).
O.K. It is a data point, anyway.
> Since air is mostly N2, which is a pretty ideal gas, the ideal gas law
> should apply.
>
> PV = nRT,
>
> where r is the gas constant, P is your pressure, V is volume, n is the
> number of molecules, T is temperature. Temperature is in Kelvin, so
> there's likely only a few-percent variation despite it often being
> colder at high altitude.
>
> Also, V is the same (or, at least, change in V from in- to out-bellows
> should be the same), so this implies that for each percent drop in
> pressure, there's an equivalent percentage drop in the number of air
> molecules that travel past your reeds as you go from max volume to min
> volume.
>
> From this highly simplistic analysis, I'd predict that you could keep
> the loudness of your instrument about the same by applying the same
> amount of pressure, but you'd run out of bellows sooner.
That, I would expect -- especially with someone playing at
around 250 mb.
But I'm not sure that you could actually apply enough pressure
to compress the atmosphere inside sufficiently with a limited structural
strength in the bellows. I doubt that the actual bellows pressure
differential is that much above atmospheric. Let's calculate based on a
square ended 8x8" concertina (for simplicity). That is 64 square inches
of endbox area, and I doubt that a normal concertina (or Bandoneon)
player could produce more than perhaps 10 pounds of muscle strength over
the period of a long tune, so that would be about 0.156 PSI additional
in the bellows. With the typical sea-level air pressure around 14 PSI,
that would be only 11.2 mb greater than the surrounding atmosphere.
And even if you could produce sufficient pressure, what happens
on the draw -- where you have so much less atmosphere outside. This
might lead to an asymmetry in the sounds from the press vs draw reeds.
> Interesting question.
It will be interesting to see what other discussion comes from
it.
Thanks for taking part,
DoN. Nichols
> On 20 Jul 2006 20:36:44 GMT, dnic...@d-and-d.com (DoN. Nichols)
> wrote:
>
> >O.K. I've been reading a work of Science Fiction which includes someone
> >playing a Bandoneon on Mars in a tent city (which increases the
[ ... ]
> > And -- I'm wondering whether anyone has experience with playing
> >any form of squeezebox at high altitudes. Places like Pike's Peak come
[ ... ]
> Not a squeezebox, but I've played my diatonic harmonica inside the
> icecaves on top of Titlis, 3200 meters. Rather a live room. Required
> more huffing and pufing than at sea level, but not as much as a
> chromatic at SL.
O.K. that would put you at about 10,500 feet (to get into the
units of the graph which I am using), and that would put your pressure
at about 690 mb
I guess that the human lungs are a more sensitive instrument for
the purpose than the bellows of a squeezebox.
Did you notice any difference in the draw vs blow notes?
That is still over three times the pressure of the atmosphere in
the book at that point in the story (250 mb or less, I think). Try to
imagine how it would be with one-third of the air to work with.
Don Tuite
wrote:
>According to Don Tuite <don_...@MAILNOTSAUSAGEhotlinks.com>:
>> On 20 Jul 2006 20:36:44 GMT, dnic...@d-and-d.com (DoN. Nichols)
>> wrote:. . ., but I've played my diatonic harmonica inside the
>> icecaves on top of Titlis, 3200 meters. Rather a live room. Required
>> more huffing and pufing than at sea level, but not as much as a
>> chromatic at SL.
>
> O.K. that would put you at about 10,500 feet (to get into the
>units of the graph which I am using), and that would put your pressure
>at about 690 mb
>
> I guess that the human lungs are a more sensitive instrument for
>the purpose than the bellows of a squeezebox.
>
> Did you notice any difference in the draw vs blow notes?
I can't really remember. But given the venue, I was playing Der
Frohliche Wanderer in 1st position, so blows preponderated.
Don
HeatherR
DoN. Nichols wrote:
> O.K. I've been reading a work of Science Fiction which includes someone
> playing a Bandoneon on Mars in a tent city (which increases the
> atmospheric pressure over that outside, but not *that* much.)
>
> And -- I'm wondering whether anyone has experience with playing
> any form of squeezebox at high altitudes. Places like Pike's Peak come
> to mind -- though that is still well over the pressure in use at this
> point in the story.
>
> I would expect the volume to be lower, and a *lot* more bellows
> travel to be required to get *any* sound out of the reeds. But -- I've
> never been in a position to try it with one of my concertinas, so I
> decided to toss out the question here where squeezebox players of all
> sort gather.
on a purely unscientific note, i have played in breckenridge & beaver
creek in colorado. i noticed that i had to do a little more sqeezing,
but that might have merely been my fatigue at suddenly being at 10,000
feet, in the same way that biking 30 miles was significantly harder
than when biking in chicago.
would the difference in gravitational pull of mars make a difference?
there is an aspect to bellowing that is gravity-assisted. clearly
someone should do some testing of accordion playing in a zero-gravity
simulator. has no one snuck a small accordion onto mir yet? they've
got a guitar up there already.
heather
alexrat
> > O.K. I've been reading a work of Science Fiction which includes someone
> > playing a Bandoneon on Mars in a tent city (which increases the
> > atmospheric pressure over that outside, but not *that* much.)
> >
> > And -- I'm wondering whether anyone has experience with playing
> > any form of squeezebox at high altitudes. Places like Pike's Peak come
> > to mind -- though that is still well over the pressure in use at this
> > point in the story.
I read this at first as 'High Attitude Squeezebox Playing' which we're
seen more of.
Carry on.
BOba
Paul Hardy on Individual.net
> So -- you were already considering that there might be problems,
> so you would be sensitive to them.
That altitude (7000 feet) is quite sufficient to make moderate exercise such
as hiking up hill appreciably harder than down below, so I knew the air was
thinner.
>...
> It probably would have been, since that one has the wooden
> baffle which was common on the "learner" models.
But the brass reeds and baffle make it my favorite instrument for practicing
and just playing at home for pleasure - and less antisocial in an apartment
block!
> And by the serial number, that one would date from about 1861.
It truly amazes me that a flexible constuction cardboard held together by
skin of cow, can be flexed for 145 years without falling apart!
> And the last time that I was at about 11,000 feet (the airport
> in Quito Ecuador) I did not have a concertina, let alone the thought of
> testing one. That was a *long* time ago. :-)
Ah well, if you had posed this question a year or so ago, I could have taken
a tina and given you an interesting reference point, because I went to Peru,
and as well as being at Machu Picchu and Lake Titicaca, I crossed the
Patapampa pass going from Puno to the Colca Canyon, that must be one of the
highest paved roads in the world. At the top I took a GPS reading of 16,050
feet (4892 metres)!
>> Pikes Peak is above 14,000 feet, so presumably there the pressure would
>> be
>> down towards half sea level and may be more noticeable. I'm going to
>> Colorado in September but don't know if I'll get to PP. If it looks
>> likely
>> I'll take a tina and report back.
It seems that Pikes Peak is not the only one to try if I take a tina to
Colorado - I should head for the Mt Evans Scenic Byway - the highest paved
road in the USA. "The summit of Mount Evans is 14,264 feet and the road
reaches 14,130 feet, where you may well feel the effects of altitude,
including dizziness".
>> The local highest peak is San Gorgonio, at about 12,000 feet, but it's an
>> 11-mile hike to reach it through the wilderness (and 11 miles back), so I
>> don't propose going to try the tina there. The highest road nearby is the
>> Onyx pass at 8,000 feet.
One other nearby and particularly interesting experimental candidate is the
Palm Springs aerial tramway to Mount San Jacinto
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palm_Springs_Aerial_Tramway or
http://www.pstramway.org/). Another page describes it thus: "Today, the
world's largest rotating tramcars carry visitors from an elevation of 2,643
feet to a Mountain Station located at the 8,516-foot level of Mt San Jacinto
State Park and Wilderness. It has the steepest vertical cable rise in the
U.S. and the second steepest in the world."
Assuming one's fellow passengers didn't object, one could start playing at
the valley station, and play continuously as you rose 6000 feet, noting the
changes in necessary bellows pressure and resultant volume, in a constant
acoustic environment!
--
Paul Hardy
Email: paul at the hardy.demon.co.uk domain
Exiled in Redlands, CA, 92373, USA
Theodore M. Kloba
> on a purely unscientific note, i have played in breckenridge & beaver
> creek in colorado. i noticed that i had to do a little more sqeezing,
> but that might have merely been my fatigue at suddenly being at 10,000
> feet, in the same way that biking 30 miles was significantly harder
> than when biking in chicago.
Actually, I think your note is very "scientific" in that it points out
the presence of an extraneous variable in the experiment: The effects
of altitude on the person doing the squeezing (or huffing & puffining
in the case of the harmonica) and their ability to judge how hard
they're working.
DoN. Nichols
>
> DoN. Nichols wrote:
> > O.K. I've been reading a work of Science Fiction which includes someone
> > playing a Bandoneon on Mars in a tent city (which increases the
> > atmospheric pressure over that outside, but not *that* much.)
> >
> > And -- I'm wondering whether anyone has experience with playing
> > any form of squeezebox at high altitudes. Places like Pike's Peak come
> > to mind -- though that is still well over the pressure in use at this
> > point in the story.
> >
> > I would expect the volume to be lower, and a *lot* more bellows
> > travel to be required to get *any* sound out of the reeds. But -- I've
> > never been in a position to try it with one of my concertinas, so I
> > decided to toss out the question here where squeezebox players of all
> > sort gather.
>
> on a purely unscientific note, i have played in breckenridge & beaver
> but that might have merely been my fatigue at suddenly being at 10,000
> feet, in the same way that biking 30 miles was significantly harder
> than when biking in chicago.
Are you playing a button box (or something with a similar
pattern of different notes press or draw), or something with the same
note in both directions? If the latter, the next paragraph applies,
otherwise, just skip to the one after it, as it does not apply.
Hmm ... if you tend to pace your playing so you reverse near the
end of bellows travel, you *might* notice that you are running out of
bellows travel at higher altitude. At least that is part of what I
would expect. Though I'm not sure that it would be that obvious at
10,000 feet -- your pressure should be about 700 mb -- over 2/3 of what
is present at sea level. Pike's Peak is down to 600 mb -- still not
*that* low.
The altitude which would be a match for the tented city at that
point in the story line would be about 33,000 feet (250 mb pressure).
The target pressure for the end of the story (which I have not yet
reached) is 500 mb, which is equivalent to about 18,000 feet, at which
point, no tented cities would be needed at the lower altitudes.
> would the difference in gravitational pull of mars make a difference?
That is a good question. You would have more muscle power
available to devote to the playing, instead of supporting the
instrument, but your muscle tone would probably be less as a result of
the lower gravity. And the benefit of letting gravity help with the
draw operation would be lessened.
> there is an aspect to bellowing that is gravity-assisted. clearly
> someone should do some testing of accordion playing in a zero-gravity
> simulator. has no one snuck a small accordion onto mir yet? they've
> got a guitar up there already.
A concertina should do for the atmospheric pressure test, though
probably not for the gravity test. (It has the advantage of being both
smaller and lighter than the typical accordion.)
And an English System concertina would be less gravity sensitive
-- though I do sometimes use gravity to help both the press and the
draw, as well as for the visual aspect of playing.
> heather
Is the Heather which I know? Given the domain name from which
you are posting, I guess that it is possible. And if so, you may have
even *read* the stories about which I am writing -- the _Red Mars_,
_Green Mars_, _Blue Mars_ trilogy by Kim Stanley Robinson.
Enjoy,
DoN. Nichols
> news:e9p66...@news1.newsguy.com...
> > So -- you were already considering that there might be problems,
> > so you would be sensitive to them.
>
> That altitude (7000 feet) is quite sufficient to make moderate exercise such
> as hiking up hill appreciably harder than down below, so I knew the air was
> thinner.
That I can well believe. I experienced it at the airport in
Quito Ecuador, and I was still a teen at that time.
> >...
> > It probably would have been, since that one has the wooden
> > baffle which was common on the "learner" models.
>
> But the brass reeds and baffle make it my favorite instrument for practicing
> and just playing at home for pleasure - and less antisocial in an apartment
> block!
Understandable. Baffled brass reeded instruments have the most
mellow sound that I have experienced.
> > And by the serial number, that one would date from about 1861.
>
> It truly amazes me that a flexible constuction cardboard held together by
> skin of cow, can be flexed for 145 years without falling apart!
They outlive the bellows on accordions because of different
construction. Accordion bellows are fabricated from long strips of
cardboard folded (though a special machine) and then cut to form the
corners and joined. As a result, the hinges are compromised cardboard,
which has been weakened (fibers destroyed) by the sharp bending process.
In contrast, concertina bellows are made with individual panels
for each flat (heavier cardboard -- posterboard in the US terms), joined
by hinges of treated cloth tape at both the inner and outer edges (the
kind which used to be used for book repairs), with the outer edges
sealed with a *very* thin leather (and not cow leather as far as I know)
run around the outer ridges of the bellows. The inner edges are covered
by a butterfly-shaped piece of similar thin leather which also forms the
decorative outer surface of the bellows (sometimes with additional
printed panels over that -- such as in your brass-reeded instrument.
> > And the last time that I was at about 11,000 feet (the airport
> > in Quito Ecuador) I did not have a concertina, let alone the thought of
> > testing one. That was a *long* time ago. :-)
>
> Ah well, if you had posed this question a year or so ago, I could have taken
> a tina and given you an interesting reference point, because I went to Peru,
> and as well as being at Machu Picchu and Lake Titicaca, I crossed the
> Patapampa pass going from Puno to the Colca Canyon, that must be one of the
> highest paved roads in the world. At the top I took a GPS reading of 16,050
> feet (4892 metres)!
You seem to be doing more traveling than I am these days. :-)
> >> Pikes Peak is above 14,000 feet, so presumably there the pressure would
> >> be
> >> down towards half sea level and may be more noticeable. I'm going to
> >> Colorado in September but don't know if I'll get to PP. If it looks
> >> likely
> >> I'll take a tina and report back.
>
> It seems that Pikes Peak is not the only one to try if I take a tina to
> Colorado - I should head for the Mt Evans Scenic Byway - the highest paved
> road in the USA. "The summit of Mount Evans is 14,264 feet and the road
> reaches 14,130 feet, where you may well feel the effects of altitude,
> including dizziness".
Great. That is very slightly lower than the Pikes Peak level, I
think.
> >> The local highest peak is San Gorgonio, at about 12,000 feet, but it's an
> >> 11-mile hike to reach it through the wilderness (and 11 miles back), so I
> >> don't propose going to try the tina there. The highest road nearby is the
> >> Onyx pass at 8,000 feet.
>
> One other nearby and particularly interesting experimental candidate is the
> Palm Springs aerial tramway to Mount San Jacinto
> (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palm_Springs_Aerial_Tramway or
> http://www.pstramway.org/). Another page describes it thus: "Today, the
> world's largest rotating tramcars carry visitors from an elevation of 2,643
> feet to a Mountain Station located at the 8,516-foot level of Mt San Jacinto
> State Park and Wilderness. It has the steepest vertical cable rise in the
> U.S. and the second steepest in the world."
Looks like about 750 mb for that height -- perhaps not enough to
show much difference.
> Assuming one's fellow passengers didn't object, one could start playing at
> the valley station, and play continuously as you rose 6000 feet, noting the
> changes in necessary bellows pressure and resultant volume, in a constant
> acoustic environment!
Hmm ... what I would like to try is a chamber similar to those
for treating "the bends", except reinforced to handle reduced internal
pressure, instead of extra internal pressure. That would allow testing
at perhaps a smaller time interval separating the two. But if I went
down to 250 mb, it would also need to be almost pure oxygen, I believe.
Thanks,
HeatherR
i play a PA. or was playing, until hit by a car in June. i hope to
play again (keep my right wrist in your thoughts and prayers.)
yes, people would be less strong on mars, but people would have to do
some sort of resistance training, everyone would be getting fractures
right and left because of low bone density. so possibly one could be a
better squeezer on mars, as long as they also exercised.
i agree a concertina would be more appropriate on mir.
you are probably thinking of a different heather, i am not familiar
with the books you referenced.
sincerely,
heather
DoN. Nichols
> don-
> i play a PA. or was playing, until hit by a car in June. i hope to
> play again (keep my right wrist in your thoughts and prayers.)
Indeed so. I hope that it all recovers nicely. Was there any
other damage, other than your wrist -- or do you mention that only
because of the connection to playing?
> yes, people would be less strong on mars, but people would have to do
> some sort of resistance training, everyone would be getting fractures
> right and left because of low bone density.
Would they -- while still in that gravity field? Yes, inertia
would not be reduced along with the gravity.
Of course, as the first generations conceived on Mars grow up,
you are seeing people on the average a half meter taller than their
parents -- and yes, those who grew up so do have difficulties if they
visit Earth.
> so possibly one could be a
> better squeezer on mars, as long as they also exercised.
> i agree a concertina would be more appropriate on mir.
Even if it is an English system instrument. :-) But I don't
think that a Bayan would be as light or easy to "smuggle" up. The trick
is to get it declared a scientific experiment. (Though the air pressure
playability question could be easily enough answered by a hypobaric
chamber -- which is almost certainly part of the training of the
astronauts. I just don't have the resources to build one. Minimum
practical size would be something like 4x4x8 (in feet), resulting in a
pressure on the walls of 36,288 pounds with an interior pressure of 250
mb -- 48,384 pounds if you went down to a complete vacuum, which is
beyond the conditions of the experiment.)
> you are probably thinking of a different heather, i am not familiar
> with the books you referenced.
O.K. I was starting to think that, because the initial after
the first name was wrong -- unless she had activated a middle name of
which I had no knowledge.
Thanks,
Paul Hardy on Individual.net
"Paul Hardy on Individual.net" <pa...@hardy.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:4ica1tF...@individual.net...
>>> The local highest peak is San Gorgonio, at about 12,000 feet, but it's
>>> an
>>> 11-mile hike to reach it through the wilderness (and 11 miles back), so
>>> I
>>> don't propose going to try the tina there. The highest road nearby is
>>> the
>>> Onyx pass at 8,000 feet.
I was hiking close to the Onyx Pass on Saturday, so took the opportunity to
go up to the pass with the Wheatstone. It's a little higher than I said -
the sign says 8443 feet.
For playing, it didn't seem markedly different to Redlands (1000 feet), but
I did notice that two keys were noticeably slow to speak (one on push and
one on pull) - one seemed particularly reluctant, and if I pressed gently
could a fair amount of let air out without sounding at all. Back at
Redlands, they both worked fine again.
I tried a 'scientific' experiment of timing how long a full bellows lasted
for a gentle constant note of middle C (16 seconds +/- 3), and repeated it
in Redlands for comparison (18 seconds +/- 2). However I don't think the
results are statistically significant - there was probably as much variation
between runs at altitude as the typical difference with elevation!
rod...@mont-alto.com
HeatherR wrote:
> i agree a concertina would be more appropriate on mir.
Actually, why I didn't think of it earlier I'm not sure, but in the
early Russian silent film "Queen Alyeta of Mars" the accordion that is
played on Mars (by a Russian soldier who arrives by rocket and
instigates a socialist revolution) is a button box - I can't remember
whether it's one or two row.
(The science in this film is perhaps somewhat suspect, I should add,
though the costumes are a hoot....)
Rodney Sauer
Mont Alto Motion Picture Orchestra
www.mont-alto.com
DoN. Nichols
> Replying to my own post (bad form I know)
> "Paul Hardy on Individual.net" <pa...@hardy.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:4ica1tF...@individual.net...
> >>> The local highest peak is San Gorgonio, at about 12,000 feet, but it's
> >>> an
> >>> 11-mile hike to reach it through the wilderness (and 11 miles back), so
> >>> I
> >>> don't propose going to try the tina there. The highest road nearby is
> >>> the
> >>> Onyx pass at 8,000 feet.
>
> I was hiking close to the Onyx Pass on Saturday, so took the opportunity to
> go up to the pass with the Wheatstone. It's a little higher than I said -
> the sign says 8443 feet.
Thanks.
> For playing, it didn't seem markedly different to Redlands (1000 feet), but
> I did notice that two keys were noticeably slow to speak (one on push and
> one on pull) - one seemed particularly reluctant, and if I pressed gently
> could a fair amount of let air out without sounding at all. Back at
> Redlands, they both worked fine again.
A good set of of data points. Especially the reeds which were
reluctant to speak.
> I tried a 'scientific' experiment of timing how long a full bellows lasted
> for a gentle constant note of middle C (16 seconds +/- 3), and repeated it
> in Redlands for comparison (18 seconds +/- 2). However I don't think the
> results are statistically significant - there was probably as much variation
> between runs at altitude as the typical difference with elevation!
O.K. Working from a graph again (so I'm not sure that I can
tell whether I am at 8000 feet or 8443 feet), it looks like about 735 mb
pressure there against maybe 970 mb at 1000 feet (I really need to
program an equation into the computer for this -- but then it varies
a bit with weather anyway). so you are at about 76% the pressure at the
top of the pass, while your observed difference in bellows draw time is
about 89%. I suspect that you were unconsciously working for constant
bellows time -- as you would likely do when playing something which you
know well, and have preferred places to reverse the bellows travel.
DoN. Nichols
>
> HeatherR wrote:
>
> > i agree a concertina would be more appropriate on mir.
>
> Actually, why I didn't think of it earlier I'm not sure, but in the
> early Russian silent film "Queen Alyeta of Mars" the accordion that is
> played on Mars (by a Russian soldier who arrives by rocket and
> instigates a socialist revolution) is a button box - I can't remember
> whether it's one or two row.
Likely to be a Bayan -- or are those only three-row?
> (The science in this film is perhaps somewhat suspect, I should add,
> though the costumes are a hoot....)
It sounds like fun.
Thanks,
HeatherR
>
> Indeed so. I hope that it all recovers nicely. Was there any
> other damage, other than your wrist -- or do you mention that only
> because of the connection to playing?
>
i have other fractures, but only the wrist (scaphoid) that required
surgery and the broken elbow (radial head) are keeping me from the
accordion. i hope to be back squeezing by 2007!
DoN. Nichols
That is a long time to be forced to avoid playing.
I wonder whether a lightweight concertina might serve as a
temporary instrument which would over-stress your injuries? (But be
careful -- you might get hooked. :-)
Assuming that the same arm owns both the wrist and the elbow, a
concertina like that could be played seated, with the affected end
resting on a knee, and all the motion supplied by the other arm. With
English system, only half the notes need to be played with the injured
wrist/hand.
The ideal for you under the circumstances would be about a 1940s
to late 1950s Wheatstone AEola*, with aluminum reed carriers (for
lightness), wooden ends (metal adds too much weight, and is a bit harsh
sounding for my taste, and a set of wrist straps, to ease the hand
control -- not normally needed with such a light instrument -- but in
this case, you may want every bit of help you can get.
Unfortunately -- those are among the most expensive and hardest
to find of the English system instruments. If you know someone who has
one and who is willing to lend it for the duration -- it might be worth
a try.
* The "AE" of AEola is supposed to be printed joined -- a
typographic feature which has fallen out of common usage, and
certainly is not supported by a plain-text medium such as
usenet newsgroups are *supposed* to be. (I guess that it is
possible with HTML -- but HTML in newsgroups is ugly. :-)
Best of luck,