Songs are Dated?
Willard Barth
I've been following this thread for a while and finally decided to make
an appearance. After receiving a message this morning from another
publisher who thinks my songs are "very good, but dated, more 80's rock".
Most of the songs I have submitted are ballads. I don't see them as rock
songs, but as ballads and songs.
I've been taught to write what you feel, no to try to write what you
think is going to sell. I've tried to stay pretty true to that form and
over the past few years (although I haven't shopped as much as I should
be) the repeated response is "Good songs, a bit dated though". I don't
have the money to bring in a producer to bring them "up to date". And
each time I get one of these calls or letters I'm more embarrassed to and
reluctant to send it out again. Writing and performing are my deepest
desires, but as the negative responses come in, the guitar comes out less,
and the happieness I used to know from hearing my finished work is
starting to become a forgotten feeling. I know that I should just "write
for me", but let's be realistic here, my goal in life is to be a
professional songwriter/performer.
My question is this, How do I bring my songs "up to date". Do I say to
myself "Their loss" and move on. I'm the type of person who seems to
write off the compliments from people as "they're just being nice" and the
negatives as "they're the ones being honest". I used to believe in my
songs and in myself. I want that feeling back.
Please forgive me if this sounds like senseless babble. I have been
following this group for a while and have grown to respect the advice of a
lot of the contributors. HELP!!!! I know the burning desire still lies
within, please help me fan the flame.
Willard Barth
Mike Conway
> My question is this, How do I bring my songs "up to date". Do I say to
>myself "Their loss" and move on. I'm the type of person who seems to
>write off the compliments from people as "they're just being nice" and the
>negatives as "they're the ones being honest". I used to believe in my
>songs and in myself. I want that feeling back.
> Please forgive me if this sounds like senseless babble. I have been
>following this group for a while and have grown to respect the advice of a
>lot of the contributors. HELP!!!! I know the burning desire still lies
>within, please help me fan the flame.
I have not really taken a crack at selling songs per se, but I have played for
a long time in bands and tried putting them together and promoting them. If
your songs are good, they're good. Hell, half the stuff that makes it on the
charts sounds dated to me!
From band-promoting experiences, I think rejection is probably the rule, you
just need a break. If it wasn't that they sounded dated, it would be that
your changes are not complex enough, or your structure isn't right, etc.
Trying to do music as a profession is pretty risky, it's good to have a day
job. That's not to say dont go for it, but I guess what I'm trying to say is
that if every good songwriter got signed, we'd have more songwriters then bus
drivers. Trying to sound 'now' will be immediately transparent to most
listeners, vs. the genuine article.
I certainly don't have the background to be giving out advice, that's not what
I'm trying to do...just saying keep plugging away at what you genuinely do,
and realize that its hard as hell to get a break.
ho...@noao.edu
hor...@raven.cybercom.com (Willard Barth) writes:
> My question is this, How do I bring my songs "up to date". Do I say to
>myself "Their loss" and move on. I'm the type of person who seems to
>write off the compliments from people as "they're just being nice" and the
>negatives as "they're the ones being honest". I used to believe in my
>songs and in myself. I want that feeling back.
If you cop the attitude that everyone's out of step but you, you will stagnate
as an artist. And you're in trouble when you start believing your press, be it
good or bad.
I just wrote my hundredth song, and the only thing I know about it for certain
is that, of those who've heard it, some like it and some don't. That's an
improvement. *Nobody* liked my first fifty.
Enjoy your compliments when you get them, and learn from the criticism when you
can. But in the end it's a crap shoot, and your only hope of winning is to
keep rolling the dice.
I believe in myself and my songs...I believe I can finish the next song and I
believe it will be better than the last. And as long as that is true, there is
always hope.
Keep swinging...
Bret
William R Knecht
Willard Barth <hor...@raven.cybercom.com> wrote:
>Hello everyone,
> I've been following this thread for a while and finally decided to make
>an appearance. After receiving a message this morning from another
>publisher who thinks my songs are "very good, but dated, more 80's rock".
>Most of the songs I have submitted are ballads. I don't see them as rock
>songs, but as ballads and songs.
>
> I've been taught to write what you feel, no to try to write what you
>think is going to sell. I've tried to stay pretty true to that form and
>over the past few years (although I haven't shopped as much as I should
>be) the repeated response is "Good songs, a bit dated though". I don't
>have the money to bring in a producer to bring them "up to date". And
>each time I get one of these calls or letters I'm more embarrassed to and
>reluctant to send it out again. Writing and performing are my deepest
>desires, but as the negative responses come in, the guitar comes out less,
>and the happieness I used to know from hearing my finished work is
>starting to become a forgotten feeling. I know that I should just "write
>for me", but let's be realistic here, my goal in life is to be a
>professional songwriter/performer.
>
>myself "Their loss" and move on. I'm the type of person who seems to
>write off the compliments from people as "they're just being nice" and the
>negatives as "they're the ones being honest". I used to believe in my
>songs and in myself. I want that feeling back.
>following this group for a while and have grown to respect the advice of a
>lot of the contributors. HELP!!!! I know the burning desire still lies
>within, please help me fan the flame.
>
Well Will,
What you pose is the tip of an iceberg, because you're really getting at the
issue of "What makes a melody or idea 'current'?" And if we knew that
we'd all be cranking out Top 40's by the bushelful.
I can identify with your problem. I have one beautiful, beautiful melody,
which, if it had come out in 1955 would've been a hit. It has that
smoldering, climactic (like sexual) buildup to it, characteristic of the
slow dance songs of the 50's. But nobody--NOBODY--will touch that tune with
a 10 foot pole. It's an anachronism.
So I've tried to come to grips with what constitutes 'au courant', as the
French say. The only things I can come up with are that the country is in
some Zeitgeist, which changes every 10 years or so, and that the songs
somehow fit in with this Zeitgeist. F'rinstance, in the 50's was this
great, burgeoning sexuality--the precursor to the Sexual Revolution of the
60's. WWII was over, and many, many horny men were coming home from
overseas. The parents of these guys were Victorians, so they were raised
to keep their sexuality firmly in check. But the stresses of the the war
and the sweetness of victory lent this great sexual impetus to life.
Replenish the earth after conquering your enemies and emerging triumphant.
You get the idea. So the slow dance songs of that era tend to have this
enormous smoldering, repressed-but-trying-to-break-out sexual quality.
Nowadays, there isn't this degree of repression to sex, so it's probably
hard for young people (who are buying the records) to identify with a
feeling of sexual repression. When they are horny, they just come out and
ask somebody if they want to have sex. Very matter-of-fact (yes, I
realize it's not that simple, but we're talking about 'average' behavior
of groups here, and you must admit that people are more sexually liberated
now than they were in 1950. That's all I'm saying).
Now each decade has its own Zeitgeist. To be au courant you have to be able
to figure out that Zeitgeist and get in tune with it, at the very least,
and hopefully to figure out where it is headed. If you can do that, you'll
have better chances of being a hitmaker, it seems to me.
Example: Shania Twain's monster hit 'Any Man of Mine'. By any stretch of
the imagination, this is a stupid, retrogressive song, which calls for a
man to be completely dominated by a woman. This is very clearly NOT calling
for equality of the sexes. It's calling for female domination.
BUT--and the key to understanding why this song is so popular--is that it
is *females* who still feel dominated, even in this 'supposed' age of sexual
equality. So this song appeals to the 'get even' instinct in humans, which
is what I call a Hot Button. There are obviously a lot of frustrated
women out there who want to kick the shit out of men, emotionally, but who
don't have a champion, because most women know intellectually that this
would be wrong. But *emotionally* is a completely different issue.
This song provides an emotional catharsis for frustrated women. That is
the core of its power.
Incidentally, I can see already that this posting is going to kick up a
lot of dust. So let it be known a priori that I am *not* a sexist. My
best songs are 'f--k you' songs written for women. I was once named an
Honorary Woman by a lesbian, feminist rock and roll band. So I don't want
to hear any comments about my political position, thank you.
It's just a question of being brutally honest about what Hot Buttons are
being pushed. Take Garth Brooks for example. That song, what's it called,
'One Summer'--about where the young kid boinks his female boss on the wheat
farm. Well, virtually every adolescent kid has this Oedipal fantasy about
being sexually attended to and taught by a sexy-but-compassionate older
woman, part mother, part whore. Yes, gals, it's true. So, you see, Garth
just recognized a Hot Button, and pushed it. That's his genius. He is
Hot Button King, whether you like it or not.
Now let's wrap this up. Two points. First of all, I am not personally
obsessed with sex, so let's not go cooking up some big deal about Bill's
secret fantasies or anything. This is all purely textbook clinical psy-
chology. Ask your shrink. Second, not all Hot Buttons are sexual. To
use Garth as an example again, 'Honky Tonk Bar Association' panders to the
secret Republican in us all--the part that wants to squash the welfare
cheats (even though they comprise something like a whopping 1% of all
welfare monies). Part of Garth's genius is his relative shamelessness
when it comes to pushing them Buttons. If he spots one, he pushes it.
Well, let me modify that a bit. Deep inside us are a few buttons that
are truly evil (e.g. the Kill the Jews Button). These are primordial
urges to kill, rape, maim, etc. that are part and parcel of our caveperson
genetic heritage. We all have these urges to some extent. Yeah, all the
rest of you out there reading this. I know --YOU don't. YOU"RE friggin'
perfect. But the rest of us do. And Garth is smart enough (and basically a
good person) to leave these buttons alone. And well they should be left
alone. So we're all killers and sadists, given the right circumstances.
So are most of us saints, given the right circumstances.
So the Takehome Message of this whole deal is "Identify the Zeitgeist of
the times. Pander to it, and to basic human needs and desires, to the
degree that you don't feel like you're surrendering to the Dark Side,
Luke."
As far as your personal songs go there, you may be able to tweak the
melodies and lyrics to get a more modern feel. But that's a matter of
intuition, and how to do that, and it's more than I can explain. Sorry.
My apologies for the s/w rambling nature of this discourse. I'm too lazy
to edit and clean it up. Am spending too much time on the Net as is. Y'all
can identify I'll bet. It's just that it's such a damned good group...
Bill Knecht
SongDoc
>Hello everyone,
> I've been following this thread for a while and finally decided to make
>an appearance. After receiving a message this morning from another
>publisher who thinks my songs are "very good, but dated, more 80's rock".
>Most of the songs I have submitted are ballads. I don't see them as rock
>songs, but as ballads and songs.
[some deletion required]
> My question is this, How do I bring my songs "up to date". Do I say to
>myself "Their loss" and move on. I'm the type of person who seems to
>write off the compliments from people as "they're just being nice" and the
>negatives as "they're the ones being honest". I used to believe in my
>songs and in myself. I want that feeling back.
willard...
often when a publisher / producer or label says the songs are "dated",
they're referring to the SOUND of your demo. more than 3/4 of the
demos i get use the classic rock, 70's country or ill-used midi gear
sounds. it's tough to get past the first verse, and i usually don't.
why bother? there's always another tape to review...
i know it's a tough row to hoe, competing with the demos that we cut,
but to get past a polite listen, full blown songs demos must sound
current. if you can't go that route, then under produce 'em. but
don't rehash the past.
remember, SONG demos don't need long intros or instrumental rides.
cut to the chase, get to the point. and do it all in TUNE. nothing
gets a tape tossed quicker than a pitchy singer or band.
blah blah blah...
good luck.
don
Reese D Wilson
Look, I've been told no so many times that I couldn't begin to tell you how
many... I've seen writers come and go in the four years I've been here and a
lot of the ones who stayed ended up with a big payoff when it was done... Cal
Sweat comes to mind... This guy wrote great songs and kept being shoved around
and was told everything from "you're close" to "get outta town", but no matter
what he was told, he just kept plugging away...
Well, Cal wrote "You Have The Right To Remain Silent"... Whether you
personally like the song or not, it did something that no other song in country
music history has done... It was released on an independent artist who was
picked up in mid-single by a bigger label and ended up in the top 5... I
respect that more than the guys with the names who get the #1's...
Honestly, Willard, the guys who end up at the top of the charts get there
because they outlast the BS in this town, not because they write well...
Writing good stuff gets you in the door... Outlasting this town gets you to
the top...
(Reese Wilson 5010...@trader.com)
---
* Origin: Traders' Connection * telnet: trader.com * info: in...@trader.com
Reese D Wilson
May I add that in both cases of my singles being reviewed, I've never
received more than a polite "it's okay" kind of review... To quote one I read
in Music Row Magazine "it's a totally boring video, with a totally boring
artist singing a totally boring song" (about Jeff Carson and "Not On Your
Love") Billboard waxed "She Can't Say..." when it came out and said something
like "Exactly the vanilla you'd expect from a title as vanilla as this one"...
Both those guys have been invited to #1 parties... :)
Bret Holtz
Wilson) writes:
> Both those guys have been invited to #1 parties... :)
Nothing succeeds like success...and there is no sweeter revenge.
Bret
Reese D Wilson
mountain-top monument... That wasn't a response, that was a work of art...:)
Linda Rigel
: Willard:
:
: Honestly, Willard, the guys who end up at the top of the charts get there
: because they outlast the BS in this town, not because they write well...
: Writing good stuff gets you in the door... Outlasting this town gets you to
: the top...
:
:
: (Reese Wilson 5010...@trader.com)
Reese, I find that strangely comforting!
Linda Rigel
Dennis Gunn
hor...@raven.cybercom.com (Willard Barth) wrote:
>
> My question is this, How do I bring my songs "up to date". Do I say to
> myself "Their loss" and move on. I'm the type of person who seems to
> write off the compliments from people as "they're just being nice" and the
> negatives as "they're the ones being honest". I used to believe in my
> songs and in myself. I want that feeling back.
>
> Willard Barth
Willard:
Others will disagree but my personal feeling is DO NOT ATTEMPT to bring
your material up to date. Develop your own musical voice and identity.
Find the thing that is clearly yours and it will be timeless. It's
impossible to keep up with trends they are for followers.
As for the compliments thing I think everybody is that way. I know I
am. Don't worry about it. Personally I know my own opinion and I pay
attention to what other people say to see how clearly I am getting
accross. There *are some* surprisingly good listeners out there whos
opinions good or bad I trust and enjoy hearing.
Good Luck