Hiding too long

[chris]

From Untold Dylan to ER to you:

You’ve been hiding too long. An utterly brilliant early Dylan gem you must hear
(live at town hall 1963)

Posted on January 6, 2018 by TonyAttwood
By Tony Attwood

This post edited slightly on 7 Jan 2018 after a further thought suddenly struck me while I was playing the song over and over in my head

This is one of the utterly, absolutely brilliant pieces of Dylan’s early work that was performed in the Town Hall concert and then abandoned. If you have never heard it, you really should scoot down to the foot of this little review and play the one and only recording there is. It is a masterpiece. An absolute masterpiece.

full article and song:

http://bob-dylan.org.uk/archives/6320

[President_dudley]

astonishingly appropriate.

thanks, chris.

i find it innerResting, as might JW, that Eyolf [inestimably righteous] in his tablature
[ https://dylanchords.info/00_misc/hiding_too_long.htm ]

has the lyric as
You're thinking of your sales, you ain't thinking of me.

rather than
You’re thinkin’ of yourselves, you ain’t thinkin’ of me.

be that as it may

my dad always said that a day above freezing is a good day. the others are open to discussion.

rdd
___
Bob Dylan on the Steve Allen Show Feb. 25, 1964. "The Lonesome Death of Hattie Carroll."
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ix9IgoRkG4

[the numbers scrolling are the american debt]

[Just Walkin']

Not a big fan of the n-word and am disappointed to hear Bob utter it so early in his career. Now, his later use in Hurricane highlights his indiscretion in both instances and underlines the relative function at the time of each use.

I completely disagree with the Lenny Bruce thesis that we take the power out of the word by overusing it. This is pure bullshit. Like Bob Dylan, John Lennon, Patty Smith and even Dick Gregory had to rely on the power of the word to make their point: women, rock and rollers, up from down somewhere, and further embedding it with its meaning in the language. Its rampant usage is attributed to this historically failed attempt to launder it; it only made it worse.

At least that's the way I see it.

[Rachel]

don't you think the (tv just said noses to the grindstone, ha ha) majority of people who use it (i don't in fact know this, i am just guessing, i could be completely wrong) mean it in a positive cool way? even when it's used, say, in a negative way, and this is kinda dicey, but it holds a special place, kind of like things do for, as stephen says, a post-shoah (holocaust) / auschwitz yehudi (jew)? i mean, everybody knows slavery has gone the way of cannons, at least in this country, so when someone says the word, even sternly or what sounds to be angrily, be he black or white, but *not* a racist, it's just an acknowledgment of the person being of african descent and his present social status as free person? for example, like some character exclaiming, "what the hell do you think you're doing, *n*!!??" i don't like using the word myself, but usually always the way i hear it really doesn't sound malicious or racist to me. i see it as a kind of a reverse reminder that african-americans are no longer slaves, but free people in a free country. or even someone saying something like, "get your black ass upstairs and do your homework!" like a parent to a child. it seems to me like a carefully coded compliment, a way of saying, this is a free country, and you're part of it now. you can be anything you want if you make the effort and work hard and put your mind to it, even president of the united states! (tv just said president of the united states, i'm futzing around this post polishing it, and i was right there at potus.)

sure, i'm not saying there aren't still racists around who may outrageously use that word as a form of hate speech, like those of whom GJ has apprised us down in the deep south where he lives. i can barely even imagine it. thank g-d i'm not around anybody like that.

so it's weird. i don't mind hearing it any more, as i find it usually meant in a positive way, not that i often find myself in such an occasion when it is used, but i refuse to say it. i said it once when i was in college, when i was furious, and felt oppressed and singled out by a pushy police officer who pulled me over for no legitimate reason (imopho! hmmf!), and wanted specifically only to hurt his feelings when i realized that he was black and the historical significance of that, and it practically ruined my conscience at some point soon after i encountered bob dylan. it seems to have healed for the most part, depending on my stress level or the degree to which i am out of my comfort zone.

ps after writing this whole post, i kind of had a little lightbulb go off, about violent self-hating black people, as well. people with issues about their race (african-american) and use the word as a form of self-hatred or hatred/resentment towards other black people, as well. i don't know. i barely associate with anyone IP, and the tv is usually on MSNBC, so that's about all i know and encounter anymore these days.

i guess it takes all kinds. different strokes for different folks, as they say. i feel sorry for whoever is in charge of running this planet. 🙁

[Rachel]

ps i got so sick of going over this and continually refining minute details, even finishing up my final thoughts, i saw the time, and just said f it, and sent it in. i hope that's okay.

[Rachel]

as i have already said when i told this story years ago, i didn't have the nerve to say it to his face, i wanted to, but i'm obviously not THAT stupid, anyway, i just kinda whispered it, i was scared to say it, after he walked away.

i heard it come out of my mouth, and then felt like a royal idiot. my brother wouldn't even look at me, and then later it ruined my brain with never-ending outbursts escaping from the recesses of my consciousness, that i had said it. it was truly a nightmare. but it wasn't physically painful, just a terrible onus, and also served to keep me alienated from others, and feeling like a pariah. but i didn't care THAT much...i had my bob dylan dream to hang onto.

i'm hangin' on...

if only i weren't so weak... 🙁

[Just Walkin']

This is a very bad argument Rachel. Bad as in not very well constructed.

It is still a pejorative, even if your ears have gotten accustomed to it. And its usage is still abhorrent, by any measure,even if you don't think so.

Furthermore, you are correct, certain sectors of the black community's usage of it indicates more the self-hatred that has been cultivated within their psyches by our racist culture than it has to do with pride or pushing back. It is a psychological survival strategy and sign of submission rather than a defiant pose or posture.

When people who call themselves white use it, it only deepens the problem. The aforementioned stars who have used it in popular songs and legitimized its use by a whole new generation should be ashamed of themselves. But they're not. Rather they have carefully constructed rationales for why they used it and nudnik fans that have given them a pass for its use on the basis of their "artistry," "fandom" or both.

We should all ashamed of ourselves that we let it continue to become a subject of discussion. We could have killed it one generation, but we didn't; we let our rock and roll stars carry it forward for us and excused them for it, as if they knew better. They don't and, obviously, neither do we.

[Rachel]

hold on, i'm trying to read this but obama is on letterman talking right now.

i

[Just Kidding]

>> i guess it takes all kinds. different strokes for different folks, as they say. i feel sorry for whoever is in charge of running this planet. ?

>
>ps i got so sick of going over this and continually refining minute details, even finishing up my final thoughts, i saw the time, and just said f it, and sent it in. i hope that's okay.

I wouldn't worry about it. You're not the first person who's had
trouble coming to grips with racism. Like Donald "No Collusion" Trump
said, who knew it could be so complicated.

[Rachel]

oops, sorry, my finger slipped. (rather, an extraneous i that i missed deleting before posting)

okay, i saw it, had to rewind, he didn't really say anything, it was just a short fluff piece (i don't know if that's a technical term or not.) when he was president, whenever anything he said about climate change came on, he always had my undivided attention.

i'm sorry, jusst. i'm afraid this is not my experience, and i can't agree with you at this point, that it's a bad word and should be eliminated. i myself, personally, won't say it (except that one time which eventually messed up my mind), but it seems like so many people are trying to make it into something good. perhaps this is an insight into some kind of attempt to relax the relations between blacks and whites, or help take the sting out of the anger and/or shame we all live with from our national history. i don't know. maybe you're right, but a lot of people are still trying to figure it out, what to do with this word, like robert de niro and that scene in the relatively new movie, dirty grandpa. have you seen it? i just saw it on cable a few weeks ago. i don't know who started it, the word's resurrection or evolution into something good, in our culture. honestly, i'm surmising black people. i always thought it was their sole right to use it after the civil rights gains of the 60s, and it *was* their pride, that they could say it and no one else could. then they started turning it around. that's how i vaguely remember understanding it. but i really don't know. maybe it was like you say, people like bob dylan and lenny bruce. maybe both. i don't know who instituted the substitutions, or championed its evolution, either, from the n word, to the now only slightly considered to be offensive unless used in a historical context (or the college fund), negro, the 99% abandoned colored, which is still dying out with our oldest senior citizens, afaik, to black, to african-american, which didn't quite catch on 100%, however some people, like myself, are sensitive to situations, and switch between one or the other, depending.

tbqh, it really is a terribly awkward thing to bring up, at least for me, say, in a restaurant, or any public place; the elephant in the room. to be overheard, and misconstrued, and judged guilty, as a racist, to even be heard *mentioning* skin color (ethnicity) out loud, even if the context is completely benign. even if you are overheard saying the ultimately politically correct, "african-american," there's no way out. you think you are being either hated or resented or making someone else uncomfortable or suspicious or making their ears stand up, and are judged guilty. it's scary. (an aside, sometimes i find myself facing the same fears of being overheard when religion comes up. is someone jewish or not, or however it comes about. WWII, the holocaust, and being overheard, say in a restaurant. me with my black hair and pointy nose. anyway, that's neither here nor there in this discussion we are having. unless you want to continue.)

i just remembered i heard someone white, rather extreme, use the word once, as a substitute for just using the word black. i found it offensive, but only as a truly bad word, not a blatant form of racism, as far as i was aware. i mean, i don't think he associated with a lot of black people, i don't really know, but i'm guessing that was just his life experience. however, naturally, i didn't think he was someone with whom i could ever get that close, if he would use that word as a natural part of his vocabulary, and whatever his background was such that he spoke like that. at first, i thought we might be able to connect. when he said tits, i thought he was still redeemable, that i could change him, and gently requested he not use that word, and to say breasts, instead. then he used the "n" word, and i immediately gave up. i was going to say, it was like reaching the ends of the earth and falling off, with no going back. but now i remember the cover of the children's poetry book, it was like getting to the point..."where the Sidewalk ends." at that point i figured whoever he was, whatever his background, that it was truly hopeless. i mean, for us to truly relate, to be the same, and be close. that just seemed insane. to be so clueless, or insensitive. where could he have possibly been raised or learned that, that it was okay to use that word, and yet, he wasn't a red-neck racist from the deep south? actually, come to think of it, i THINK he MAY have been from the midwest, iirc. i'm not for sure. <e.g> i also just remembered he didn't like his nose, which shocked me, i never even noticed anything about it, and i looked and couldn't see what there was not to like. and he commented that he had a black butt, which i hadn't noticed either, and thought that seemed sort of true, "now that you mention it." he was very white with blonde and blue eyes and very muscular, i don't know his ethnic origins.

i've never really heard it used hatefully, except in books or movies depicting days gone by. i'm not really around people like that, except a maybe of couple times. (or say, the movie american history x). i know it's still out there...skinheads, etc.., but i don't think it's anywhere near in the majority, is it? well, i just thought of/remembered our prison system...and the gangs in there divided by race...and the proportion of african-americans in prison compared to others...but we were talking about the use of a word. (as if this discussion is of any relative significance to the state of world...oh well.)

maybe a word is more than just a word.

i don't know, i'm probably just a girl (now my worst childhood nightmare come true, a single unmarried woman with no children) from a small town, who hasn't been around enough. or maybe i've been around the block too many times, and can see where it's at, and you're the one living in some kind of fanciful lala land, where we are all so refined and decent, and a merre/word will break your bone. i can't blame you, it happened to me with that guy...eventually, rather quickly, he disappeared out of my life. i considered being with him sort of an adventure, as opposed to anything true and meaningful. when we were at an NA meeting together, a woman speaker shared about how things could turn around and eventually finding your soul mate in those rooms. i was sitting there next to him, my new temporary companion, and burst into tears. (okay, honestly, i don't remember if this was before or after the n word comment.)

i think it's okay, not for me, but if some people are using it in a positive, complimentary fashion. do you really think there is a way to eliminate hate merely by changing words?

that one time it came out of my own mouth, i didn't really mean it. it was just a personal vendetta, if you will, against the officer's character, or so i thought, not his race. i just wanted to hurt his feelings, but not B/C he was black. he was, in fact, rather striking and handsome. it was his personality, the way he was acting. maybe you can take his race out of that equation, maybe they can't be divorced. i thought he just being was an obnoxious a-hole. i made the conscious choice to say it, the worst word in the english language, and it was a huge mistake, hearing it come out of my mouth, a frightened whisper. it was horrifying. i felt so stupid.

you'd have to work harder (tell me more about it) to change my mind though. i'm tending to think that you probably could, as you probably know more about it that i do??

i don't think my ears got used to it.

i heard it used by a white person as a compliment. (imo)(re-reading, tv just said dominos continue to fall...) it was foreign to me, but it gave it a completely new meaning, and opened my eyes to something cool, or so i thought.

the example i am about to give even reminds me of the jackie robinson movie, 42, the part about a little white boy seen copying his moves and wanting to be like his black baseball hero, only reversed.

now, granted, old-fashioned folks may not like this example. but if you're more progressive, you might approve.

a white kid, from whom my friend was attempting to acquire some weed for me, which i thought i wanted and needed to help relax and chill out...so the guy was sort of feeling pressured, like being able to find it and get it for us, so he goes, (and this makes me think of red in the movie shawshank redemption), but he goes, "do i look the *n*!??! do i look like the *n*?!?!" i couldn't believe it. it's like he was using it as the ultimate compliment. do i look like the guy who has a head on his shoulders, who knows what he's doing here, who is well-connected, who knows how to find you and get you what you want and need? i have no f*ckin' clue. i'm not the *n*!!!!!"

see what i mean? maybe you don't approve of the context (pot), but the intention is only and purely admirable, imopho.

well, anyway, it takes me a long time to sort out my thoughts, sorry it took so long to answer.

you'd have to tell me more about your position, if you wanted to enlighten me about it.

but i'm probably not worth the effort. 🤘

[Rachel]

oops sorry for the errors, i see i omitted "hair" and "maybe a couple of times" is poorly edited. i'm in the middle of re-reading it, as if new, or at least trying.

[President_dudley]

And the way you see it is as i expect, and respect, only a different direction than i'd led.

Only to say, and to add fuel to your fire, the two instances (that i know of) bob performing Black Cross (Hezekiah Jones), famously written by actor Paul Newman's uncle, and which probably bob learned from Lord Buckley. Extant recordings date from 1961 and 1962.

The poem contains this:
}
...reading ain't no good for an ignorant *igge*
{

But to say that in 19and63, bob's use of *igge* in ascribing it to "phoney super-patriotic people" during his SJW phase is anathema and trying to expunge it is similar to reading the expunged, bowdlerised Huck Finn.

Happy reading.

I'd defer to my buddy Will, a bona fide black guy who can't speak two sentences without using the word (Yo judge, your honor, this *igge*'s *hi* is *ucke* up bro.) (actually he never said that, he said "Your honor, i find this witness's testimony to be suspect").

I would have to agree with Mr Bruce in that the power of the "F" word has been lessened by overuse.

Peace, my Brother,
rdd
___
}
“Well, there's a lot of good ways for a man to be wicked!”
And they hung Hezikiah as high as a pigeon,
And the nice folks around said, "well, he had it comin'
'Cause the son-of-a-bitch didn't have no religion!"
{

Black Cross by Lord Buckley
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GJajlORN9rk

http://www.lordbuckley.com/LBC_The_Word/LBC_Transcriptions/Black_Cross.htm

Bob Dylan - Black Cross (Cruz Negra) {La historia de Hezekiah Jones} - Español
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tFeHEplBskY
{Leer es no bueno para los negros ignorantes}

[Rachel]

wouldn't it be nice if one day a white person could say to his buddy, "yo, n*gga, whassup? and the black person could respond in kind, "not much, you honky cracka! wanna hang?" and everybody is giggling and smiling and getting along. i think a lot of people do this already on the streets these days. not the kind of people i grew up with, but i was in a very sheltered small east coast ultra-conservative and racially/socially/economically divided town, to say the least.

kind of reminds me a little bit of clint eastwood (i had trouble remembering his name) in the movie grand torino. there's a scene, iirc, where he was attempting to accomplish this very goal, to toughen up his new young less experienced friend, with language and a tolerant, tough yet relaxed attitude like this. it was a good movie. you might want to check it out, if you haven't seen it, if you have any time on your hands. i'm not usually a fan of clint eastwood movies at all, i can't even sit through his most highly touted work, but this was a good one!

[Just Walkin']

I am not sure about that. I always wondered why folks in the 60s would say "F**k Nixon;" why would they want to wish such pleasure on such a rotten guy?

> Peace, my Brother,
> rdd

[Just Walkin']

On Thursday, January 11, 2018 at 12:38:19 AM UTC-6, Rachel wrote:
>
> wouldn't it be nice if one day a white person could say to his buddy, "yo, n*gga, whassup? and the black person could respond in kind, "not much, you honky cracka! wanna hang?" and everybody is giggling and smiling and getting along. i think a lot of people do this already on the streets these days. not the kind of people i grew up with, but i was in a very sheltered small east coast ultra-conservative and racially/socially/economically divided town, to say the least.
>

Yikes! Sorry Rachel, there is absolutely no parity between racial epithets used by folks who call themselves white and pejoratives used by people with darker skin against their historic oppressors. In many ways, the attempt to establish this kind of parity between the two is another example of racism itself and is exactly the goal that the alt-right is after.

> kind of reminds me a little bit of clint eastwood (i had trouble remembering his name) in the movie grand torino. there's a scene, iirc, where he was attempting to accomplish this very goal, to toughen up his new young less experienced friend, with language and a tolerant, tough yet relaxed attitude like this. it was a good movie. you might want to check it out, if you haven't seen it, if you have any time on your hands. i'm not usually a fan of clint eastwood movies at all, i can't even sit through his most highly touted work, but this was a good one!

It was good in that it teaches lessons of cultural sensitivity. But the film does not deal with racism. The conflation of racism, discrimination, bigotry and prejudice only muddies the water and obfuscates the true historic dimension of the continuing damage done by racism.

[DianeE]

On 1/10/2018 5:10 PM, Rachel wrote:
[discussing "the N word"]
>
> don't you think the (tv just said noses to the grindstone, ha ha) majority of people who use it (i don't in fact know this, i am just guessing, i could be completely wrong) mean it in a positive cool way? -------------------
****NO******. I absolutely do not.

[Rachel]

i guess i watch too much tv.

[Rachel]

so you don't like this video, then? 😃

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=033FInn1wH8

[Just Kidding]

For anyone who might think we're in some kind of a "post-racial" time
-- think again:

Team kicked out of league for offensive basketball jerseys
http://tiny.cc/j124py

[Rachel]

you know, quite honestly, i think i was damaged by all those videos of the holocaust and hitler i was shown in hebrew school at a tender young age, to start. then in a kind of chemical chain reaction, as if a crumbling tumbling house of dominos, each and every horrific potentiality of pain and possible trauma haunted me into a living hell.

we figured out in therapy, my doctor and i, that i intellectualize pain. it festers inside me, like a rotten sore, until it's so infected that it's practically beyond repair, and it finally reaches me viscerally, and that's how and why i get so sick, and it explodes.

so i didn't know what to make of those videos in my youth, and it wasn't until i got out on my own in the world, and lost my anonymity due to carelessness, that it came back to terrorize me, in every way, shape, and form. even watching the news was frightening. just being alone in my own home was too hard to handle, and for while i took in a muscular bounty hunter, or so he claimed to be, partly for protection. he also had a gun, although it didn't have any bullets, which was fine. he went and got some once on his way out on a special job he was called in for, or so he said, but that was a lone incident. it just felt safer with him here. i eventually got over it though, and finally started acclimating myself to being a lone solitude in the big bad real mysterious unknown world, and just having to grin and bear it. i honestly barely trust, or even know, anyone in this metropolis of la, a city my mother in ny calls an abomination, or anywhere really, left on this globe. only the mystical musings of the few cyberusers i encounter on the other side of this looking glass, supposedly all somewhat connected to or associated with this group and bob dylan...

my israeli psychologist made the comment; not *everyone* needs to be the bearers of history, or the guardians of the human race, in order not to doom us to repeat it. what would even be the point of life, then? how could we enjoy it? what in the world would be the purpose, what would we all be *doing* here? why?

i think it's kind of nice, maybe i'm totally wrong, where there are a relatively select small number of protectors of a specially perhaps even self-chosen elect, who guard and keep history, but then the rest of the people have the luxury of innocence and freedom, to enjoy their lives, without the daily burden of its reminders. some people seem to have no choice. since we're talking in a bob dylan group, i'll quote him again, how he says it runs in his veins. maybe everybody is exposed to it, to one degree or another, the horrors of history, in school, or from their parents. some seem to be drawn in to it, and dare to dwell in the darkness, while others merely move on, and live their lives on this earth as if it were lala land, or an episode of mr. rogers, or the brady bunch. these are probably in fact the two extremes, and most people probably land somewhat more in the middle.

in this play i saw a few years ago, and one of the lines (ha ha i wrote limes again...seems like they really want to get born, and get their own emoji. gee, i wonder if compuspeak is going to turn into some kind of short hand, filled with emojis, and it's like a new language being born...for sure! seriously!) anyway, so the line goes, and it was as if it were the disturbed writer speaking to me directly, or rather, i could hear *him* speaking through his character, for himself, how many people think about the holocaust every day? and remember, the holocaust was but the culmination of 2000 years of never-ending persecution.

the more i learn about the world and its history, the more disillusioned i become, and think, there's nobody left to enjoy it, that we are practically all in pain, and suffering, all creatures and other living things, in a never-ending battle between good and evil. and peace is turned away from the door. omg, what's the point? is there an ultimate salvation, or is death the end, or what?

sometimes i honestly can't understand how i got born. how could my mother, whom i truly respect and honor, actually really have loved me? sometimes i think, okay, it's all a big secret, or a big joke, or a gift so special, i haven't come to understand and appreciate and even receive it yet. maybe i haven't earned it. it's that hounding hunger of hope (oops i wrote up, how odd), which never escaped, and creeps into my gut. i guess like bob dylan says, i'm one of those people who thinks with his/her/their stomach. i don't know exactly what he means by that...but does anybody really know what his songs are about? that's probably why he started mumbling in the first place, because there was no point. nobody knew what he was talking about anyway, so who gives a rat's *ss?

looking at your comments, you say you think the ultra right is driving this movement, of using racial epithets, in an evil attempt to keep racism and hatred alive and well. are you saying people like bob dylan, lenny bruce, robert de niro, et al, are all tools of a vast alt-right konspiracy?

[Just Walkin']

Yes.

Not conspiracy. Hegemon. Market-driven culture takes it's production away from the people and makes it an accounting function with market rather than social value. Hence "race" as a concept is a myth that has been perpetuated in order to substantiate its accounting and "racism" its deadly reality perpetuated by the cultural inertia of this accounting system. If you'd like, you may call it 21st century totalitarianism - market totalitarianism.

For example: Ever see those official forms and applications that asks you if you are: 1) white, 2) black, 3) Latino/Latina, 4) Asian or Pacific Islander? Just the fact that color, language and nation of origin have been conflated and intermingled is more of an attempt to perpetuate the system of phony racial classification and obfuscate its gross worthlessness and inaccuracy than it is to ameliorate it and create the foundation for justice!

And what recourse do we have? For instance, if we want funding for our schools in poverty stricken areas, we have to substantiate and reinforce the very classification system that created the problem through redlining to begin with!

So again, the answer is yes. But it is not a conspiracy, nor is any group in charge. Some may be exploiting it. But as long as liberals, so-called progressives and people in the entertainment business who should know better yet keep it alive in their farkakte money-making cultural products, we are doomed to make fake science real and our babble will become a bible with plenty of guns for all.

I say: Unity NOT identity is the path forward.

[Rachel]

i've been thinking about it.

remembering an incident in middle school.

being called a jew cunt.

i don't think i'd like to be called a jew anything, if it were negative.

i don't mind being called a boring cunt, or something like that. that doesn't bother me at all, as long as i knew it wasn't coming from a misogynist.

but if it were something positive, i take it in its context, and like it, i think.

why do some african-american people like and use the n word and others don't? obviously much of it is related to your background and socio-economic class, but i've never studied anything about that. is it personal, related to the individual, struggling to come to terms with his/her own identity and history?

btw, how do you wipe out a word in one generation? are you talking about making it illegal, like denying the holocaust or displaying a swastika is in germany?

and why are cigarettes still legal? how many people a year do they kill and maim? i know a lovely man, a professor at the university of chicago, who decided not to have children, after he saw the pain that was possible, which his own mother went through while dying of lung cancer.

there used to be an electronic billboard on santa monica blvd., i'm not sure if it's still there or not, with the astronomical number, daily growing, up and up and away until the year was over.

if people still needed nicotine, to deal with their lives, they could chew the gum, or wear a patch.

[Rachel]

are you saying the entertainment business is keeping racism alive by exposing the populus to black music and black culture that in fact acknowledges our individuality and unique identities, and celebrates our differences, and is thus possibly keeping people apart?

are you blaming the liberal progressive movement for supporting black people and giving them a voice through their music or other media, and often it's an angry and violent one, among other things? you think it is perpetuating the problem?

you don't think it is inoculating the audience to the disease, in an attempt to deflate the divisions along the lines of race, class, and culture?

or do you think it is fanning the flames?

don't you think we need to take the lid off our improbable perennial pot (no pun intended) and let out the all the steam, so the people don't boil over and explode?

what is it in fact, that you are proposing? (if anything)(she might even just be asking herself...)

[Just Walkin']

Not at all. But keep in mind that the identity movement was created by the French New Right to create parity for the white nationalists to emerge in the open and oppose people of color.It was exported to the US as a Trojan horse and the so-called left here swallowed it whole. It has literally destroyed what was left of the left in this country.

> are you blaming the liberal progressive movement for supporting black people and giving them a voice through their music or other media, and often it's an angry and violent one, among other things? you think it is perpetuating the problem?
>

Not at all. If they truly supported and gave voice. But limited and selective as this voice was, it had a steep price. We are paying it now. Keep in mind that they are to blame for promoting the empty promise of diversity and not fighting for equity or economic justice. Diversity without equity is window dressing, lipstick on the pig. The Democrats are the window dressing party to the GOP pig party.

> you don't think it is inoculating the audience to the disease, in an attempt to deflate the divisions along the lines of race, class, and culture?
>

I think the entertainment business does its part in dividing people and keeping them from organizing as a class. This was the whole point of the McCarthy witch hunt and blacklist in Hollywood: Most people think that it was to root out commies; in reality that escapade was only to provide ideological cover for the campaign to repolarize the nation AWAY from class divisions that would unify people and TOWARD predefined special interest groups which could then be later attacked.

> or do you think it is fanning the flames?
>

Progressivism is allowed to exist...as long as it it is practiced within due bounds set forth by our nation's ruling class aka "the money." Remember, once upon a time, Teddy Roosevelt was considered a progressive: The father of American imperialism.

> don't you think we need to take the lid off our improbable perennial pot (no pun intended) and let out the all the steam, so the people don't boil over and explode?
>

We need to let the people explode against the class system that is oppressing them rather on each other. The alt right was promoted in order to change the conflict from class to race, given how perilously close Bernie Sanders got to the nomination. Bernie scared the bejesus out of the these oligarchs and their media puppets. They would rather we revel in our differences, shoot each other up and police each other's behavior than unite for justice.

> what is it in fact, that you are proposing? (if anything)(she might even just be asking herself...)

I suggest that if you believe the solutions will be found within the system as it is configured now, you are sadly mistaken. Both parties are the right and left hands of the system itself and keep the populous in thrall...and powerless.

In this system, hope is all you ever have, to truncate and invert Obama's exhortations. If you want to hear someone I think exemplifies what I am saying, go find Rep. Ihan Omars's interview with Trevor Noah on The Daily Show. She too says UNITY not IDENTITY is key. Watch it; it's cute.

[Rachel]

these talk we're having take a lot out of me, i'm going to have to table this until at least tomorrow.

sorry to put you on the back burner, but i'm...burnt out. (to a crisp!)

[Just Walkin']

On Thursday, January 11, 2018 at 6:34:16 PM UTC-6, Just Walkin' wrote:
> > >
> > > I say: Unity NOT identity is the path forward.
> >
> > are you saying the entertainment business is keeping racism alive by exposing the populus to black music and black culture that in fact acknowledges our individuality and unique identities, and celebrates our differences, and is thus possibly keeping people apart?
> >

> Not at all. But keep in mind that the identity movement was created by the French New Right to create parity for the white nationalists to emerge in the open and oppose people of color. It was exported to the US as a Trojan horse and the so-called left here swallowed it whole. It has literally destroyed what was left of the left in this country.

>
> > are you blaming the liberal progressive movement for supporting black people and giving them a voice through their music or other media, and often it's an angry and violent one, among other things? you think it is perpetuating the problem?
> >

> Not at all. If they truly supported and gave voice. But limited and selective as this voice was, it had a steep price. We are paying it now. Keep in mind that they are to blame for promoting the empty promise of diversity and not fighting for equity or economic justice. Diversity without equity is window dressing, lipstick on the pig. The Democrats are the lipstick party to the GOP pig party.

>
> > you don't think it is inoculating the audience to the disease, in an attempt to deflate the divisions along the lines of race, class, and culture?
> >
> I think the entertainment business does its part in dividing people and keeping them from organizing as a class. This was the whole point of the McCarthy witch hunt and blacklist in Hollywood: Most people think that it was to root out commies; in reality that escapade was only to provide ideological cover for the campaign to repolarize the nation AWAY from class divisions that would unify people and TOWARD predefined special interest groups which could then be later attacked.
>
> > or do you think it is fanning the flames?
> >
> Progressivism is allowed to exist...as long as it it is practiced within due bounds set forth by our nation's ruling class aka "the money." Remember, once upon a time, Teddy Roosevelt was considered a progressive: The father of American imperialism.
>
> > don't you think we need to take the lid off our improbable perennial pot (no pun intended) and let out the all the steam, so the people don't boil over and explode?
> >

> We need to let the people explode against the class system that is oppressing them rather than on each other. The alt right was promoted in order to change the conflict from class to race, given how perilously close Bernie Sanders got to the nomination. Bernie scared the bejesus out of the these oligarchs and their media puppets. They would rather we revel in our differences, shoot each other up in a race war and police each other's behavior than unite for justice.

>
> > what is it in fact, that you are proposing? (if anything)(she might even just be asking herself...)
> I suggest that if you believe the solutions will be found within the system as it is configured now, you are sadly mistaken. Both parties are the right and left hands of the system itself and keep the populous in thrall...and powerless.
>
> In this system, hope is all you ever have, to truncate and invert Obama's exhortations. If you want to hear someone I think exemplifies what I am saying, go find Rep. Ihan Omars's interview with Trevor Noah on The Daily Show. She too says UNITY not IDENTITY is key. Watch it; it's cute.

Thinking about it a little deeper, you are asking a very important question: At what point does a force for liberation become a force of oppression?

What may have set us free 50 years ago may be the very thing that is keeping us back now. That is how something like repressive desublimation works. Subjecting human sexuality to the market model during its emergence from years of prudence has defined our culture well into to the new century. A turnstile in every bedroom.

With pleasure itself subject to market rather than to normal human social behavior, we end up with all kinds of behavior, conflating deviance with dissidence. In many ways, the battle was on, the people lost. Life styles cost money. Talent is reduced to reproducible essence. And in the end, we don't really control rock and roll; the people who control rock and roll control us.