How do you spell Tchaikovsky?
david & mark price
spell his first and middle names.
Does any KNOW the correct spellings ** and can you prove it ;) **?
First name: Pyotr, Peter Petr, Pytor, Piotr
Middle Name: ilich, ilyich, ilych, ilijc, il'ych, il'yich, il'ic (spelled in
lower case so i and L look different)
Dave Price
pri...@erols.com
CONSTANTIN MARCOU
david & mark price wrote:
> While researching P.I. Tchaikovksy thru HotBot I came across several ways to
> spell his first and middle names.
> Does any KNOW the correct spellings ** and can you prove it ;) **?
Yes. П. Н. Чайковски. From his own signatures.
--
Best regards,
Con
--
To reply, please remove anti-spam asterisk from return address
**************************************************************
"Mozart is too easy for beginners and too difficult for artists"
-- Artur Schnabel
**************************************************************
Lesoscar
>While researching P.I. Tchaikovksy thru HotBot I came across several ways to
>spell his first and middle names.
>Does any KNOW the correct spellings ** and can you prove it ;) **?
>
It simply stands on how you transliterate his Russian spelling to a
Latin-alphabet language. Thus it can have a lot of different spellings
depending on that language. The traditional spelling which is accepted in many
areas is Tchaikovsky (having generally displaced the old Germanic
Tschaikowsky). There is a tendency in some Spanish newspapers to spell it
Chaikovski. The Russians themselves transliterate it into a Latin alphabet as
Cajkovskij (with the ^ on top of the C). {Not to mention that they pronounce it
Chikofsky !}
Agur,
Oscar
Brett Langston
from "david & mark price" <pri...@erols.com> contains these words:
> While researching P.I. Tchaikovksy thru HotBot I came across several ways to
> spell his first and middle names.
> Does any KNOW the correct spellings ** and can you prove it ;) **?
> First name: Pyotr, Peter Petr, Pytor, Piotr
> Middle Name: ilich, ilyich, ilych, ilijc, il'ych, il'yich, il'ic (spelled in
> lower case so i and L look different)
As you probably know, the variations are caused by different ways of
transliterating the Russian alphabet. But let's be irritatingly
technical about this :-)
In Russian, there are four letters in his first name (P Ė T R). The
second of these resembles a letter 'e', but the two dots above it
change the sound to 'yo', as in 'yacht'. So it is pronounced 'Pyotr',
but usually written as 'Pėtr' (with or without the two dots over the 'e').
The Russian version of his second name has five characters (I L * I
CH) -- the CH at the end is a single letter in Russian. The 'L' is
followed by a special character called a 'soft sign', represented
above by the asterisk. This has the effect of stressing the preceding
syllable, so it sounds more like 'EEEL-ich'. In most transliteration
systems, the soft sign is shown by an apostrophe, or may be omitted altogether.
The 'CH' sound which ends 'IL'ICH', also begins his last name, and
this is where most problems arise. This is usually rendered as 'TSCH'
in German; 'TCH' in French; 'C' in Italian; 'TJ' in Scandinavian
languages, etc. In English, 'CHAIKOVSKII' or 'CHAYKOVSKIY' would both
be correct, although we tend to persist in using 'TCHAIKOVSKY', which
is a hybrid of the French and German spellings.
The composer himself didn't use a consistent version when writing in
Western languages, but he always favoured a 'T' at the start of his
last name. In fact, he kept two types of monogrammed notepaper, with
the initials 'P. CH.' (in cyrillic) for domestic letters, and 'P. T.'
for writing abroad.
As for the different spellings of Shostakovich, Rakhmaninov,
Skriabin, Medtner, etc. -- I'll leave that to someone else ... :-)
Brett Langston
The Tchaikovsky (Chaikovskii?) web site
http://www.users.zetnet.co.uk/blangston/pitch/
EM
>>
>>While researching P.I. Tchaikovksy thru HotBot I came across several ways to
>>spell his first and middle names.
>>Does any KNOW the correct spellings ** and can you prove it ;) **?
>>
>
>It simply stands on how you transliterate his Russian spelling to a
>Latin-alphabet language. Thus it can have a lot of different spellings
>depending on that language. The traditional spelling which is accepted in many
>areas is Tchaikovsky (having generally displaced the old Germanic
>Tschaikowsky). There is a tendency in some Spanish newspapers to spell it
>Chaikovski. The Russians themselves transliterate it into a Latin alphabet as
>Cajkovskij (with the ^ on top of the C). {Not to mention that they pronounce it
>Chikofsky !}
>Agur,
It depends, of course, largely on the target language. In Dutch it is
usually Pjotr Iljitsj Tsjaikovski (in this font capital i shows the
same as a small l, the 2nd letter of Iljitsj is a small l).
EM
CONSTANTIN MARCOU
CONSTANTIN MARCOU wrote:
> david & mark price wrote:
>
> > While researching P.I. Tchaikovksy thru HotBot I came across several ways to
> > spell his first and middle names.
> > Does any KNOW the correct spellings ** and can you prove it ;) **?
>
> Yes. П. Н. Чайковски. From his own signatures.
(Sorry, but you have to set your character-set view to Cyrillic to see this).
David Perkins
we regard in the West as the usual spelling is the *French* transliteration?
David
Lesoscar wrote:
> >
> >While researching P.I. Tchaikovksy thru HotBot I came across several ways to
> >spell his first and middle names.
> >Does any KNOW the correct spellings ** and can you prove it ;) **?
> >
>
> It simply stands on how you transliterate his Russian spelling to a
> Latin-alphabet language. Thus it can have a lot of different spellings
> depending on that language. The traditional spelling which is accepted in many
> areas is Tchaikovsky (having generally displaced the old Germanic
> Tschaikowsky). There is a tendency in some Spanish newspapers to spell it
> Chaikovski. The Russians themselves transliterate it into a Latin alphabet as
> Cajkovskij (with the ^ on top of the C). {Not to mention that they pronounce it
> Chikofsky !}
> Agur,
> Oscar
--
David M. Perkins
Assistant Director, University of Illinois Press
Director of Marketing
e-mail: dper...@uillinois.edu
UIP Website: http://www.press.uillinois.edu
Gail Mrozak
I'm fluent in French and had only one Russian class, but some time ago.
David Perkins is probably correct....Tch is the way French show the
sound that in English we spell ch (example, the African country of Chad
they spell Tchad). However, the French don't use ai to equal a long i
sound.
As other posters have indicated, the issue here is how to interpret
Russian sounds from the Cyrillic alphabet into our own. His first name
is the Russian equivalent of Peter, pronounced in Russian as
Pee-aw-ter. The middle name is a patronimic, an adaptation of his
father's first name (traditional Russian practice), Ilya; patronimic is
Illich, pronounced in Russian Ill-ee-itch. The pronunciations may
explain the variant spellings.
Tchaikovsky is spelled with a w in German because the Germans pronounce
w like we pronounce a v. BTW, I also took a class in German, quite long
ago, and only have kept pronunciation issues fresh through German art
songs in voice lessons.
--
Gail Mrozak
"You play that cling cling cling jazz
or you won't get PAID tonight!"
--Stan Freberg, "The Great Pretender"
Lesoscar
>Tchaikovsky is spelled with a w in German because the Germans pronounce
>w like we pronounce a v. BTW, I a
Not to mention they write it TSCH... since they don;t have a true CH sound...
Agur,
Oscar
CONSTANTIN MARCOU
Gail Mrozak wrote:
> The middle name is a patronimic, an adaptation of his
> father's first name (traditional Russian practice), Ilya; patronimic is
> Illich, pronounced in Russian Ill-ee-itch. The pronunciations may
> explain the variant spellings.
Westerners (except for, perhaps, the Dutch) are completely at a loss to
understand the soft, guttural "g" sound common in Balkan and Slavic
languages. When it comes before "e" or "i" it's pronounced like the "y" in
the English "yes" (Ilya; Ilyich -- the "ich or "vich" ending means "son", as
in Johnson, Thomson, etc.) When it comes before an "o" or an "a," it is the
guttural "gamma" sound, much like the Dutch "g", but not so heavily rolled.
I mention this because I note, in reviewing reproductions of Tchaikovsky's
signatures and playbills, the name is usually rendered (transliterating into
Roman characters, of course) "Tchaikovskago", which (not knowing Russian) I
take to be some sort of genitive or objective declension used to indicate
"from" or "by".
Peter H. Granzeau
<pri...@erols.com> wrote:
>While researching P.I. Tchaikovksy thru HotBot I came across several ways to
>spell his first and middle names.
>Does any KNOW the correct spellings ** and can you prove it ;) **?
>
>First name: Pyotr, Peter Petr, Pytor, Piotr
>Middle Name: ilich, ilyich, ilych, ilijc, il'ych, il'yich, il'ic (spelled in
>lower case so i and L look different)
It seems to depend on exactly how the transliteration of Cyrillic to
Roman is done.
My American Heritage dictionary spells it Peter Ilyich Tchaikovsky,
and allows an alternate Tschaikowsky. My 1998 Grolier's spells his
middle name Ilich (no y). I have seen someone claim that the correct
English transliteration of the surname is Chaikovskiy. Evidently the
common spelling Tchaikovsky was one he used himself when he made his
American visit in the early 1890s.
Evidently, "Peter" is also a translation into German/English. Once
again, it depends on who's transliterating (I have seen, in addition
to the ones above) Pėtr).
--
Regards, PHG
To reply by mail, send to PGranzeau at the same site)
Gail Mrozak
> >
> >Tchaikovsky is spelled with a w in German because the Germans pronounce
> >w like we pronounce a v.
and then he wrote:
>
> Not to mention they write it TSCH... since they don;t have a true CH sound...
Thank you. I'd forgotten this one.
Lesoscar
>take to be some sort of genitive or objective declension used to indicate
>"from" or "by".
>
In Russian last names are also declinable thus you have the example you just
gave as one of the forms of the declined surname.
Agur,
Oscar
Jaime Jean
(and pronounced) it as something that could sound as "Faux-Jacques" in
French. Is this correct?
Any Czech speakers around?
Jaime
Room4Jello
>(and pronounced) it as something that could sound as "Faux-Jacques" in
>French. Is this correct?
I've only heard it pronounced once or twice, several years ago, and I'm
thinkin' it was pronounced Dav or shack.
Matt
Better the pride that resides in a citizen of the world than the pride that
divides when a colorful rag is unfurled. - Neil Peart
Oh for f*cks sake stop lettin' off fireworks and shoutin' and screamin', I'm
tryin' to sing a song - Roger Waters 7-6-77
Anonymous
the first syllable is not quite a syllable, merely the consonant
sound of the letter "d."
the second is with a rolled "r."
the third is the sound of "z," as in "azure."
that's the best i can do for anglophones, when certain sounds are
particular to the original language. and it's worse when the english
text omits the diacritical marks of the original.
dft
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MaestroDJS
confusion. When Russian names are transliterated from Cyrillic letters into
Roman letters, many different spellings can result due to the different rules
of pronunciation for English, German, French, etc. Here are some names of
composers, given in _Russian_ alphabetical order, in their most common
transliterations into English.
Note: French was the preferred language of educated Russians in the 19th
Century. French transliterations thus became the most common forms of Russian
names in the Roman alphabet, and they are still often used in English. This is
why "Moussorgsky" often appears instead of "Mussorgsky", and why we write
"Tchaikovsky" instead of "Chaikovsky".
Anton Arensky
Mily Balakirev
Alexander Borodin
Alexander Glazounov
Reinhold Glière*
Mikhail Glinka
Mikhail Ippolitov-Ivanov
Dmitri Kabalevsky
Vassily Kalinnikov
César Cui
Modest Moussorgsky
Serge Prokofiev
Sergei Rachmaninov
Nikolai Rimsky-Korsakov
Anton Rubinstein*
Alexander Scriabin
Igor Stravinsky
Aram Khachaturian
Pyotr Tchaikovsky
Dmitri Shostakovich
Rodion Shchedrin
*Note: Reinhold Glière was of Belgian ancestry and Anton Rubinstein was of
German ancestry, so their names are actually transliterations from the Roman
alphabet into the Cyrillic alphabet.
Here are 2 sets of different transliterations of the same name. Each set is
pronounced exactly the same.
English: Pyotr (T)chaikovsky Dmitri Shostakovich
German: Pjotr Tschaikowsky Dimitri Schostakowitsch
French: Piotr Tchaikovski Dimitri Chostakovitch
Polish: Piotr Czaikowski Dmitri Szostakowicz
Polish is a Slavic language closely related to Russian, but it uses the Roman
alphabet instead of the Cyrillic. Therefore, Polish transliterations of
Russian names may technically be most correct.
Note: Dimitri Schostakowitsch used the German transliteration of his own name
as the basis of a musical signature. For example the notes DSCH appear very
prominently in his _Symphony No. 10 in E Minor_.
Dave Stybr
Herman Haverkort
>Russia has many splendid composers,
True. What is the connection with Dvorak?
Regards,
Herman
Peter Stoll
Jaime Jean schrieb:
> While we are at it, how the heck do you pronounce Dvorak?
'Dvo-' roughly as it would be pronounced in English; the 'r' with the diacritic
is a rolled r + a voiced 'sh' (as in 'measure') closely linked together; the á
with the diacritic is a long a as in 'bar'; k again as in English.
Isn't this a question any decent encyclopedia would answer?
Peter
Margaret Mikulska
>
> duh-VORR-zhahk.
>
> the first syllable is not quite a syllable, merely the consonant
> sound of the letter "d."
> the second is with a rolled "r."
> the third is the sound of "z," as in "azure."
For crying out loud, this is so wrong. What makes people post such
uninformed garbage? No wonder you post it anonymously.
There are only two syllables, nothing is inserted between 'd' and 'v'.
There is no such thing in Czech or any other Slavic language as a
syllable formed only from the sound of "d" or even "not quite a
syllable". There are syllables formed from "r" and "l" alone, but you
can't count "d" alone as a syllable. The first syllable is "dvoh" and
it's stressed.
Second, there is no splitting of "r" and "zh" between the two
syllables. The sound represented in Czech as "r" with a hook (hacek) is
a combination of a rolled "r" and a "zh". You're supposed to pronounce
"r" and "zh" simultaneously, which is awfully hard to learn. You'll be
understood if you use just "zh"; much better than pronouncing "r" and
"zh" separately. To learn the real "r^", you really need to hear it - a
description in words won't do, unless you have a good training in
phonetics/phonology. There is an acute accent on "a", meaning that "a"
is long (but the syllable is not stressed).
So a reasonable approximation is DVOH-zhahk, with a long "a". With
plain ascii, there is really no way to represent the pronunciation of
the "r+zh" sound.
> that's the best i can do for anglophones, when certain sounds are
> particular to the original language. and it's worse when the english
> text omits the diacritical marks of the original.
Well, yeah, that's the best _you_ can do. I trust you on this one.
-Margaret
keith edgerley
> >
> >Tchaikovsky is spelled with a w in German because the Germans pronounce
> >w like we pronounce a v. BTW, I a
>
> Not to mention they write it TSCH... since they don;t have a true CH sound...
> Agur,
> Oscar
Sorry, but a "true" English CH-sound is in fact a composite made up of a T-sound
plus a SH-sound. (Just as a "true" German Z is in fact a T + S). The composite
sound a German makes when he pronounces what he writes as TSCH is exactly the
same sound as that made by an English-speaker when he pronounces what he writes
as CH.
On the other hand, the sound represented by CH in French spelling is a true
single sound.
This problem of the "correct" spelling of transliterated names seems to
exercise a fair number of otherwise intelligent people.
The basic point is that spelling is a convention. And conventions as to what
written symbol, or letter, we use to represent a particular sound, will differ
from one language to another. So Cyrillic, for instance, will be transliterated
differently in the Netherlands and in Italy. And both versions will be"right",
depending on the place and time. In Britain there is an official standard,
published by the British Standards Institution (BS 2979:1958), for
transliteration from Cyrillic and Greek characters.
Occasionally the problem is complicated by the fact that a Russian from the
ancien régime might have used a preferred transliteration into Latin characters.
But even then, not every country will feel it has to follow what it feels to be
unnecessarily outlandish. Chaliapine, for instance, is usually written thus. Yet
I remember the School of Slavonic studies in Cambridge used the spelling
Shalyapin. And, IIRC, Chaikovskiy. For contemporary figures the local rules
apply. Scan the world's press and see how many spellings you can find for
Yeltsin.
Is it worth pointing out that speakers of some languages using the Latin alphabet
will also transliterate into their own version of that alphabet? So the Turks and
the Hungarians will write Hollivud for Hollywood.
English-speakers tend to think that proper names are somehow sacrosanct. Yet
there is no official spelling in English for the language's greatest poet and
playwright: Shakespeare himself spelt his name in about a dozen different ways.
--
Keith
Sapere aude
keith edgerley
> I mention this because I note, in reviewing reproductions of Tchaikovsky's
> signatures and playbills, the name is usually rendered (transliterating into
> Roman characters, of course) "Tchaikovskago", which (not knowing Russian) I
> take to be some sort of genitive or objective declension used to indicate
> "from" or "by".
>
> Con, the "ago" or "ogo" ending is in fact a unique example in Russian of a
> letter representing a quite different sound. The "g" here is pronounced as a
> "v" and, yes, you are right, it is a genitive form. A simplified explanation
> would be that the spelling was retained when the sound changed, but IIRC the
> spelling came from Old Slavonic and the ordinary Russian has always been a
> "v"-sound.
>
> --
> To reply, please remove anti-spam asterisk from return address
>
> **************************************************************
> "Mozart is too easy for beginners and too difficult for artists"
>
> -- Artur Schnabel
> **************************************************************
--
Keith
Sapere aude
Lesoscar
>Sorry, but a "true" English CH-sound is in fact a composite made up of a
>T-sound
>plus a SH-sound. (Just as a "true"
That true "ch" sound written as "tsch" is not a common German sound. Please let
us have some words as example of a "ch" sound in German other than Tschekhov or
Tschaikowsky....
Agur,
Oscar
Michael Kagalenko
]
]
]david & mark price wrote:
]
]> While researching P.I. Tchaikovksy thru HotBot I came across several ways to
]> spell his first and middle names.
]> Does any KNOW the correct spellings ** and can you prove it ;) **?
]Yes. П. Н. Чайковски. From his own signatures.
NO. The coorect spelling is П. И. Чайковский .
keith edgerley
Deutsch. Kitsch. Peitsche.
--
Keith
Sapere aude
jan winter
Tschechisch. Quatsch!
--
regards,
jan winter, amsterdam
(j.wi...@xs4all.nl)
music is the healing force of the universe
(Albert Ayler)
Lesoscar
Good. Not many, though as still it is not a frequent sound for German. Can you
find a word that begins with Tsch, a German one, that is. And tks, of course.
And if you can, can you pls give us the etymology of those three words you
quoted ?
Agur,
Oscar
Lesoscar
>Tschechisch. Quatsch!
>
>
The Tschechisch is the same thing as writing Tschailowsky. And the Quatsch is
not an original German word, I believe.
Agur,
Oscar
Margaret Mikulska
>
> Lesoscar wrote:
>
> > That true "ch" sound written as "tsch" is not a common German sound. Please let
> > us have some words as example of a "ch" sound in German other than Tschekhov or
> > Tschaikowsky....
> Deutsch. Kitsch. Peitsche.
2:1 - "Peitsche" is a borrowing from Slavic languages, cf. the Polish
word "bicz", meaning the same as "Peitsche", and other words related to
"beating" in Polish and Russian.
-Margaret
Margaret Mikulska
It is; probably an onomatopoeic word, but German nonetheless.
> Bratsche, then.
Doesn't count - it's the Italian "(viola da) braccio" spelled the German
way.
-Margaret
jan winter
>>Tschechisch. Quatsch!
>
>The Tschechisch is the same thing as writing Tschailowsky. And the Quatsch is
>not an original German word, I believe.
>Agur,
>Oscar
Bratsche, then.
Lesoscar
>Bratsche, then.
>
>--
>
I have to check on that but the words is a two-syllable one brat and sche and
thus not a "ch" job.
Agur,
Oscar
keith edgerley
No, it splits - in pronunciation - Bra-tsche and is a derivation of the Italian
(viola di) braccia, a viol held on the arm, as distinct from (viola di) gamba, a
viol held on the knee.
--
Keith
Sapere aude
Dan Koren
Lesoscar
>Italian
>(viola di) braccia, a viol held on the arm, as distinct from (viola di)
>gamba, a
>viol held on the knee.
>
Tks for the info. It just proves my point about the German language lack of a
"ch" sound except for foreign words or those of such origin.
Agur,
Oscar
jan winter
>>
>>Bratsche, then.
>>
>I have to check on that but the words is a two-syllable one brat and sche and
>thus not a "ch" job.
>Agur,
>Oscar
I thought your original question was:
>Please let
>us have some words as example of a "ch" sound in German other than Tschekhov or
>Tschaikowsky....
Now I think all in response given words fullfill this condition,
regardless of where they split, or if it is a germanization (like
Bratsche, where the Italian 'cci'-sound is perfectly translated)
But if you want some more, without going through the whole dictionary:
Gletscher, Britsche, Dolmetsch.
Lesoscar
>Gletscher, Britsche, Dolmetsch.
>
Funny all these words represent the ajectival ending to words ending in "t".
Anyway, the fact remains that if you were right about a German "ch" sound,
therw ould not be a need to write it "tsch" anywhere. Not to mention that my
German grammar tells us the sound is like Eng t+sh....
Agur,
Oscar
Peter H. Granzeau
>Anton Rubinstein was Jewish.
I can't find a country called "Jew" in my 19th century atlas. I bet
his passport said he was German.
--
Regards, PHG
To reply by mail, send to PGranzeau at the same site)
keith edgerley
IPA.
Lesoscar wrote:
--
Keith
Sapere aude
Frank Eggleston
this ng, will be starting a new NG on musical etymology.
Frank E
Margaret Mikulska wrote:
>
> keith edgerley wrote:
> >
> > Lesoscar wrote:
> >
> > > That true "ch" sound written as "tsch" is not a common German sound. Please let
> > > us have some words as example of a "ch" sound in German other than Tschekhov or
> > > Tschaikowsky....
>
> > Deutsch. Kitsch. Peitsche.
>
> 2:1 - "Peitsche" is a borrowing from Slavic languages, cf. the Polish
> word "bicz", meaning the same as "Peitsche", and other words related to
> "beating" in Polish and Russian.
>
> -Margaret
--
"All we ask is that you keep an open mind."
---- Dr. Hannibal Lecter,
as quoted by Thomas Harris
Frank Eggleston
>
> Lesoscar wrote:
>
> > >
> > >
> > >--
> > >
> >
> > I have to check on that but the words is a two-syllable one brat and sche and
> > thus not a "ch" job.
> > Agur,
> > Oscar
>
> (viola di) braccia, a viol held on the arm, as distinct from (viola di) gamba, a
> viol held on the knee.
I certainly concur with that interpretation. Is there any
relationship going on here with that weird consonant in Russian which
is approximated by the noise in the middle of the English
"fish-church"?
Frank E
AVIKG
writes:
>Tschaikowsky....
there is no tscha in elglish and the W is pronounced as a V. as in monica
leVinsky.
avik-gms
jan winter
<pgr...@rcn.com> wrote:
>On 28 Nov 1999 09:36:59 GMT, d...@netcom.com (Dan Koren) wrote:
>
>>Anton Rubinstein was Jewish.
>
>I can't find a country called "Jew" in my 19th century atlas. I bet
>his passport said he was German.
I bet you are wrong. His travel documents when he needed them have
most certainly been issued by Russian authorities. Born near Balta
(Moldavia), taught in Moscow, court pianist at the court of Princess
Jelena Pawlowna, founder of the Russian Music Society and the
Petersburg Conservatory. His name? Yiddish.
Lesoscar
>relationship going on here with that weird consonant in Russian which
>is approximated by the noise in the middle of the English
>"fish-church"?
>
>Frank E
No. That sound is usually represented as shch.
Agur,
Oscar
Lesoscar
>is approximated by the noise in the middle of the English
>"fish-church"?
>
>
I should have added, like in Khovashchina.
Agur,
Oscar
Florian Weimer
> That true "ch" sound written as "tsch" is not a common German
> sound. Please let us have some words as example of a "ch" sound in
> German other than Tschekhov or Tschaikowsky....
tschilpen, Watsche, pantschen, mantschen, (the `t' is optional here),
klatschen, ratschen.
Tschüß,
Florian
Peter H. Granzeau
Khrushchev?
Lesoscar
>Khrushchev?
>-
Yes, and quite a lot more !
Agur,
Oscar
vertigo
> In article <s3pm60...@corp.supernews.com>, "Jaime Jean"
> <jj...@data.net.mx> wrote:
>
> > While we are at it, how the heck do you pronounce Dvorak? I've always heard
> > (and pronounced) it as something that could sound as "Faux-Jacques" in
> > French. Is this correct?
> >
>
> You are right, precisely! (I was trying to think how to represent it in
> letters, but your suggestion faux-Jacques can't be improved upon. Well
> done!
Close, but no cigar. I'd say there's a stronger "r" sound in the first syllable
(not faux as in toe, which is how the French pronounce the vowel sound of "au" in
faux). An official pronunciation website for composers has this pronunciation
guide:
dvaw zhack (Czechs
say 'dvaRRZHRRZHAK'; don't
even try)
The website, including a pronunciation sound file for the names of major composers,
can be accessed at:
http://www.futurenet.co.uk/classicalnet/pronunciation/pronpc.html
Good luck!
--
*******************************
"Old age puts more wrinkles in
our minds than on our faces."
MONTAIGNE
*******************************
Martin Bitter
on keybord, but there are as you rightly point out, differences between
the english and german spelling of Russian names. Some more examples are
below:
Rakhmaninov
Rachmaninoff
Shostakovich
Schostakowitsch
\\|//
(o o)
-----oOOo-(_)-oOOo--------
Martin Bitter
u4...@abdn.ac.uk
martin...@yahoo.de
--------------------------
Peter Stoll
> > > While we are at it, how the heck do you pronounce Dvorak? I've always heard
> > > (and pronounced) it as something that could sound as "Faux-Jacques" in
> > > French. Is this correct?
>
> > You are right, precisely!
> Close, but no cigar. I'd say there's a stronger "r" sound in the first syllable
> (not faux as in toe, which is how the French pronounce the vowel sound of "au" in
> faux). An official pronunciation website for composers has this pronunciation
> guide:
>
> dvaw zhack (Czechs
> say 'dvaRRZHRRZHAK'; don't
> even try)
>
This discussion seems to be going on and on, and both above suggestions are somewhat off
the mark. I posted my own some days ago and won't repeat it, but this what you usually
do if you want to know how a foreign surname (latin charcters) is pronounced:
a) You make sure you've got the correct spelling (diacritcs, umlaut etc.)
b) You take a reliable, scholarly dictionary of the language in question; and usually
there is some introductory matters including hints on pronunviation, i.e., how certain
letters or letter combinations are spelled. Good dictionaries can be found in your local
book shop or library; there are also some excellent electronic things on the market.
Make sure you don't turn to one of the many dubious net ventures.
> The website, including a pronunciation sound file for the names of major composers,
> can be accessed at:
> http://www.futurenet.co.uk/classicalnet/pronunciation/pronpc.html
> Good luck!
>
> -
I can only be utterly amazed why this ressource should be called official. I checked the
handful of German surnames and can only say, be warned.
Peter
Stan Szpakowicz
>tlst...@tpgi.com.au wrote:
>> "Jaime Jean" <jj...@data.net.mx> wrote:
>>> While we are at it, how the heck do you pronounce Dvorak? I've always heard
>>> (and pronounced) it as something that could sound as "Faux-Jacques" in
>>> French. Is this correct?
>> You are right, precisely! (I was trying to think how to represent it in
>> letters, but your suggestion faux-Jacques can't be improved upon. Well
>> done!
>Close, but no cigar. I'd say there's a stronger "r" sound in the first syllable
>(not faux as in toe, which is how the French pronounce the vowel sound of "au" in
>faux).
Groan. Not again! There is NO "r" in the first syllable. There is that
difficult r-with-a-hook at the beginning of the second syllable. For
most people (other than Czechs and Slovaks, to be sure :>), there is
little difference between that sound and "zh". It is safe and fairly
accurate to say "zh".
(Let me pass the business of how the French pronounce "au". It is quite
emphatically not as "oe" in "toe".)
Now, the trick with the French phrase is not bad, but if you say "faux
Jacques" in good French, you stress the last syllable: wrong. Besides,
why not make things even closer by replacing "faux" with "vaut". Alors,
on peut dire "DVAUT Jaacques", making sure that the first syllable is
stressed and the vowel in the second syllable is long.
Bonne chance!
For the English-speaking people with little French on their tongues, a
good bet may still be DVOH-zhaak. Good luck to you too!
--
Dr. Stan Szpakowicz, Professor www.site.uottawa.ca/~szpak
School of Information Technology & Engineering sz...@site.uottawa.ca
University of Ottawa tel +613-562-5800/6687 fax +613-562-5187
vertigo
> > > > While we are at it, how the heck do you pronounce Dvorak? I've always heard
> > > > (and pronounced) it as something that could sound as "Faux-Jacques" in
> > > > French. Is this correct?
> >
> > > You are right, precisely!
>
> > Close, but no cigar. I'd say there's a stronger "r" sound in the first syllable
> > (not faux as in toe, which is how the French pronounce the vowel sound of "au" in
> > faux). An official pronunciation website for composers has this pronunciation
> > guide:
> >
> > dvaw zhack (Czechs
> > say 'dvaRRZHRRZHAK'; don't
> > even try)
> >
>
> This discussion seems to be going on and on, and both above suggestions are somewhat off
> the mark. I posted my own some days ago and won't repeat it, but this what you usually
> do if you want to know how a foreign surname (latin charcters) is pronounced:
>
> a) You make sure you've got the correct spelling (diacritcs, umlaut etc.)
>
> b) You take a reliable, scholarly dictionary of the language in question; and usually
> there is some introductory matters including hints on pronunviation, i.e., how certain
> letters or letter combinations are spelled. Good dictionaries can be found in your local
> book shop or library; there are also some excellent electronic things on the market.
> Make sure you don't turn to one of the many dubious net ventures.
>
> > The website, including a pronunciation sound file for the names of major composers,
> > can be accessed at:
> > http://www.futurenet.co.uk/classicalnet/pronunciation/pronpc.html
> > Good luck!
> >
> > -
>
> I can only be utterly amazed why this ressource should be called official. I checked the
> handful of German surnames and can only say, be warned.
>
> Peter
I can only be utterly amazed at your amazement. As for the site being "official," check the
dictionary. How can any pronunciation key be "official" in one sense? Language is, by
definition, unofficial anyway. Try legislating language; try catching the wind; try. . . .
Oh, well, you get the message. And we're not talking about German names here, or French
names or Italian names; we're talking about one name in particular. The issue is dual:
1. the ostensibly wrong pronunciation paradigm for D's name presented by an earlier
poster and applauded by a subsequent poster. Without necessarily being an expert either in
Czech, or even Dvorak, or radio announcements of D's music, clearly the paradigm presented
was wrong; and in all my years I NEVER heard D's name enounced to rhyme with "faux."
2. I merely thought I'd refer readers of this newsgroup to a useful webpage (in fact,
webpages). Your own post has underscored my point: there is no simple solution to
pronunciation, as the word "shibboleth" made clear millenia ago.
vertigo
In such a way as to avoid the shame
Of being called uneducated or worse,
Like saying "noiss" instead of "nurse"!
Is bad pronunication such a sin?
Then there is no hope for those in Brooklyn!
I mean I start to get hemorrhoids,
When instead of "birds" I hear "boids"!
But, let me clear my nose with a tissue,
As I get back to the main issue
Of Dvorak's name; not nearly, you know,
As complex as saying the name Van Gogh;
Now some people sound like a frog,
When they pronounce his name as Van Gog;
Some others even show great fear
Of saying his name, so talk of his ear
Instead; like talking of Hamlet out of fear
That you do not know how to say King Lear.
Why is it then that names cause so much trouble?
Why can't composers have names that are double
Or even triple, like those of Mozart or Bach?
Or Rachmaninov, sometimes called Rach?
If you cannot say Sebastian, you can say Johann,
And please both woman and man.
But then, how much do I know?
I listen mostly to the music of John Blow.
But there are other names that are pesky,
Such as Saint-Saens or Gorecki.
Ogden Nash said Saint-Saens became insane,
Because people said his name as Saint-Sane.
Perhaps, as one poster said, the key
Is to look up the name in a dictionary.
But everyone has different ways, you know!
Some read books, others listen to the radio.
But what if they never play the music of Dvorak?
Then I suppose that you are out of luck!
You will always mispronounce his name,
And this may be to your pride or to your shame,
Or even worse: they will only ask you back
To their homes if you say Dvorak!
Gary Goldberg
(Lesoscar) wrote:
> >
> >Khrushchev?
> >-
>
> Yes, and quite a lot more !
And, for example, the composer Shchedrin.
Other Russian names are often pronounced with the wrong syllable stressed.
Borodin and Glazunov should have the stress on the last syllable (there's
even a guidebook out there giving pronuncation guides for Russian names
encountered in classical music, giving the stress for Glazunov as being on
the first syllable).
I convinced the author that he was wrong, but many classical radio stations
still use it, such as Minnesota Public Radio.
--
Illiterate? Write for free help!
(Remove "X" from address to reply)
Jaime Jean
originally a Polish name, so the original should be in the Latin, and not in
the Cyrillic, alphabet. How do you write Tchaikowsky in Polish?
Jaime
Steven Chung <s...@Radix.Net> escribió en el mensaje de noticias
827f4g$lku$1...@saltmine.radix.net...
> In article <XGaryG-ya02408000...@nntp.ix.netcom.com>,
> Gary Goldberg <XGa...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
> # Other Russian names are often pronounced with the wrong syllable
stressed.
> # Borodin and Glazunov should have the stress on the last syllable
(there's
> # even a guidebook out there giving pronuncation guides for Russian names
> # encountered in classical music, giving the stress for Glazunov as being
on
> # the first syllable).
> # I convinced the author that he was wrong, but many classical radio
stations
> # still use it, such as Minnesota Public Radio.
>
> Is there an -accurate- guide to this somewhere? I'm still somewhat
> baffled, for example, as to how one pronounces something as simple as
> Borodin-a-... (As in Olga.)
>
> S.
Jaime Jean
correct pronunciation of the r till I learn it in my future trip to Praga
(yeah, sure), but at least I know now that the initial D is NOT silent and
that it's the first syllable, and not both, which should be stressed. I
don't know who in Mexico decided it should sound Faux-Jacques, but that's
the way most ppl pronounce it. Go figure.
Btw, it would be interesting to see how American techie John Dvorak,
pronounces his name.
Jaime
Stan Szpakowicz <sz...@csi.uottawa.ca> escribió en el mensaje de noticias
825pjp$q3g$1...@mercury.cc.uottawa.ca...
> vertigo <ver...@ms22.hinet.net> wrote:
> >tlst...@tpgi.com.au wrote:
>
> >> "Jaime Jean" <jj...@data.net.mx> wrote:
>
> >>> While we are at it, how the heck do you pronounce Dvorak? I've always
heard
> >>> (and pronounced) it as something that could sound as "Faux-Jacques" in
> >>> French. Is this correct?
>
> >> You are right, precisely! (I was trying to think how to represent it in
> >> letters, but your suggestion faux-Jacques can't be improved upon. Well
> >> done!
>
> >Close, but no cigar. I'd say there's a stronger "r" sound in the first
syllable
> >(not faux as in toe, which is how the French pronounce the vowel sound of
"au" in
> >faux).
>
Lesoscar
Czajkowski - But that doesn't mean Pyotr's name has to be spelled that way
except in Poland....
Agur,
Oscar
Brett Langston
from "Jaime Jean" <jj...@data.net.mx> contains these words:
> I don't want to make this any more confusing, but AFAIK Tchaikowsky is
> originally a Polish name, so the original should be in the Latin, and not in
> the Cyrillic, alphabet. How do you write Tchaikowsky in Polish?
There is a Polish name Czajkowskij, but that's not where the
composer's name originates. His great-grandfather was an 18th-century
Ukrainian Cossack named Fyodor Chaika, who changed his surname to
Chaikovskii. ('Chaika' means 'sea-gull' in Russian, and 'Chaikovskii'
is an adjective derived from it.)
Hope this helps,
Brett Langston
The Tchaikovsky Web-Site
http://www.users.zetnet.co.uk/blangston/pitch/
Will Flor
>Btw, it would be interesting to see how American techie John Dvorak,
>pronounces his name.
I can't claim to answer that question, but I have known two (unrelated)
Americans with the last name Dvorak, and they both pronounced it "DVO-rack",
with all the sounds very americanized (except perhaps for the "dv", which is not
ordinarily encountered by native speakers of English.)
-Will Flor wi...@will-flor.spambloque.com
Appropriately adjust my return address to reach me via e-mail.
vertigo
> In article <s4erqrd...@corp.supernews.com>, "Jaime Jean" <jj...@data.net.mx> wrote:
> >Btw, it would be interesting to see how American techie John Dvorak,
> >pronounces his name.
>
> I can't claim to answer that question, but I have known two (unrelated)
> Americans with the last name Dvorak, and they both pronounced it "DVO-rack",
> with all the sounds very americanized (except perhaps for the "dv", which is not
> ordinarily encountered by native speakers of English.)
What about American actress, Ann Dvorak? Probably unknown today, her choicest part was as
the object of Paul Muni's incestuous desire in Howard Hawks' SCARFACE (not the remake
starring Al Pacino!). What's remarkable, looking back, is that the Hollywood moguls didn't
force her to change her name! They even tried changing Larry Olivier's name, from Laurence
Olivier to Lawrence Oliver!!!!! Apparently the "u" in the given name was too French for
American tastes; while, of course, the extra "i" was too confusing: "Larry, take my word
for it! Nobody will remember 'Olivier,' because they can't pronounce it. But 'Oliver'!
Now that's a name Americans can pronounce!" The British press did it one better: they
ignored the surname completely and simply called him "Lord Larry"!
Mark and Gill Tennant
peter...@bibliothek.uni-augsburg.de (Peter Stoll) wrote:
> I posted my own some days ago and won't repeat it
How helpful! [not!!] You re posted pretty well everything
else why not the useful bit? Now I've got to retrieve your
earlier message (if I can).
/\/\ark ~|~ennant
(to send a personal reply remove ".nospam")
Will Flor
>Will Flor wrote:
>
>> In article <s4erqrd...@corp.supernews.com>, "Jaime Jean"
> <jj...@data.net.mx> wrote:
>> >Btw, it would be interesting to see how American techie John Dvorak,
>> >pronounces his name.
>>
>> I can't claim to answer that question, but I have known two (unrelated)
>> Americans with the last name Dvorak, and they both pronounced it "DVO-rack",
>> with all the sounds very americanized (except perhaps for the "dv", which is
> not ordinarily encountered by native speakers of English.)
>
>What about American actress, Ann Dvorak? Probably unknown today, her choicest
> part was as the object of Paul Muni's incestuous desire in Howard Hawks' SCARFACE (not the
> remake starring Al Pacino!). What's remarkable, looking back, is that the Hollywood
> moguls didn't force her to change her name! They even tried changing Larry Olivier's name,
> from Laurence Olivier to Lawrence Oliver!!!!!
Well, here in the United States, "popular acclaim" leads to certain celebrities
being universally known by mispronunciations of their names, anyway. Baseball
great (no, this is not the "greatest hit" thread) Robin Yount's name is
mispronounced ("Yownt" instead of "Yunt", which is correct according to Yount
himself) by every sports announcer I've ever heard.
vertigo
True, that's another angle on the issue. However, this is probably more
related to the changing
times. Remember the age of Universal Studios (esp. the 50s), when you
were named Rock Hudson (Roy Scherer, Jr.) or
John Saxon (Caremn Orrico) or Sandre Dee (Alexander Zuck) or Tab Hunter
(Arthur Gelien). Apparently a movie, Will
Success Spoil Rock Hunter, played with such synthetic naming. But times
do change. And I tell you, I sometimes boast of how prescient I am
about things; but, to be honest, if a Southern singer named Elvis
(what?) Presley had come to me in the early 50s, the first thing I would
have said would have been something like, "Well, I think you've got
something there that we can work with, but, for Heaven's sake, before we
sign a contract, let's agree on a name for you. Believe me, nobody is
going to remember a name like Elvis Presley! Why not call yourself
something like Brick Lee instead?"
The degree to which the onomastic paradigm has been reversed can be
realized by the astonishment my friends show when I tell them that
Marlon Brando uses his real name! (His father actually is Marlon
Brando, Sr.) In other words, it is now exotic names that must be made
up, not the simpler names! Even recently, I read a newpaper column by a
Catholic priest who deplored the expropriation, by Madonna, of the
Virgin Mary's title, assuming that Madonna was an assumed, rather than a
given, name (actually, Madonna was born Madonna Ciccone).
AV
> True, that's another angle on the issue. However, this is probably more
> related to the changing
> times. Remember the age of Universal Studios (esp. the 50s), when you
> were named Rock Hudson (Roy Scherer, Jr.) or
> John Saxon (Caremn Orrico) or Sandre Dee (Alexander Zuck) or Tab Hunter
> (Arthur Gelien). Apparently a movie, Will
> Success Spoil Rock Hunter, played with such synthetic naming. But times
> do change. And I tell you, I sometimes boast of how prescient I am
> about things; but, to be honest, if a Southern singer named Elvis
> (what?) Presley had come to me in the early 50s, the first thing I would
> have said would have been something like, "Well, I think you've got
> something there that we can work with, but, for Heaven's sake, before we
> sign a contract, let's agree on a name for you. Believe me, nobody is
> going to remember a name like Elvis Presley! Why not call yourself
> something like Brick Lee instead?"
>
And not only a name change.... they appear to have forced Alexander Zuck
into a sex change as well.
av
David Hurwitz
It's always pronounced as two syllables only, as follows: DVOR-zhahk. The
"r" with the hachek is an almost impossible sound; many Czechs can't even do
it, but the above approximates it easily enough. I native Czech would slam
the "rzh" sound together an pronounce it: DVO-rzhahk, but I wouldn't both
trying. If you're not born with it, you can't do it.
--
David Hurwitz
Executive Editor
www.classicstoday.com
dhur...@classicstoday.com
<fia...@cpcug.org> wrote in message news:83mnct$l...@cpcug.org...
> >correct pronunciation of the r till I learn it in my future trip to Praga
> >(yeah, sure), but at least I know now that the initial D is NOT silent
and
> >that it's the first syllable, and not both, which should be stressed. I
> >don't know who in Mexico decided it should sound Faux-Jacques, but that's
> >the way most ppl pronounce it. Go figure.
> >
> >pronounces his name.
> >
>
> pronounce it, too; they don't have the 'hook' over the 'r' the way the
> Czechs do.
>
> Dvor'ak is easy, by the way, compared to two Czech cities that also use
> that same 'hook-r': Br'eclav and Pr'erov. Try *those*.
>
> Rich
> ====
> MIMOSA web site: http://www.jophan.org/mimosa
> 4th Postcard Diary of Eastern Europe at: http://www.jophan.org/eurodiary4
>
>
fia...@cpcug.org
fia...@cpcug.org
David Hurwitz <sce...@erols.com> wrote:
>The Slovaks do NOT pronouce it da-VOR-ak, or whatever. I was there. I know.
>It's always pronounced as two syllables only, as follows: DVOR-zhahk. The
>"r" with the hachek is an almost impossible sound; many Czechs can't even do
>it, but the above approximates it easily enough. I native Czech would slam
>the "rzh" sound together an pronounce it: DVO-rzhahk, but I wouldn't both
>trying. If you're not born with it, you can't do it.
>--
>David Hurwitz
>Executive Editor
>www.classicstoday.com
>dhur...@classicstoday.com
I should compare notes with you to see what parts of Slovakia you've been
to and which parts you've enjoyed. I've also been there. Seven times,
the most recent just two weeks ago. (If you'd like to read some of my
travel adventures about Eastern Europe, check out my travel diaries web
site, URLs below). But you're wrong about the pronounciation. The Slovak
language does *NOT*, most emphatically, have the "hook-R" (an "rzh"
sound) -- that's only in the Czech language. I know this. My business
contact in Slovakia has the last name of "Dvorak" (he's a distant relative
of the Czech composer, actually), and I know how it's pronounced. What I
wrote below is correct, if you don't linger on the "da" (OK, OK, it's
actually "dVORE-ack", the emphasis in the Slovak language is *always* on
the first syllable, but it's not easy to phonetically transcribe a "dv"
sound.)
Now tell us your adventures in using your Slovak to buy a train ticket.
Loads of fun, I can tell you; from the train station sales desk clerk's
giggles, you'd have thought I was auditioning a stand-up act.
Rich
====
URLs for my "Postcard Diaries of Eastern Europe":
(hey, there's even some things about classical music in them)
autumn 1997: http://www.jophan.org/eurodiary
spring 1998: http://www.jophan.org/eurodiary2
autumn 1998: http://www.jophan.org/eurodiary3
spring 1999: http://www.jophan.org/eurodiary4
autumn 1999: coming soon
><fia...@cpcug.org> wrote in message news:83mnct$l...@cpcug.org...
dtritter
not beat my son who lived in bratislava for three years and spent one of
them working for slovak radio, and is fluent in slovak, and he does not
concur with your fiat. since antonin dvorak [sorry i can't duplicate
either the hachek or the charka here] was very decidedly a czech, all
discussions of slovak cousins are irrelevant to the question at hand.
and by the way, once you've taught your american tongue to wrap around
those sounds, they're not at all difficult. just practice a
little...anyway, you can't begin to descend to the ridiculous
incompetence of most classical music radio announcers, who seem destined
to pronounce every language incorrectly, including their own.
dft
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Rbgirl3121
>pronounce it, too; they don't have the 'hook' over the 'r' the way the
>Czechs do.
>
>Dvor'ak is easy, by the way, compared to two Czech cities that also use
>that same 'hook-r': Br'eclav and Pr'erov. Try *those*.
>
Wellllllllll..... everyone around here where I live pronounces it
Dvor-zhyack.
Even the radio announcers... and my piano teacher... I don't know where the
"zh" sound comes from though...