> > Hello Varkor=20
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> > i think i agree with you on the interviews being the most interesting par=
> t of the DVDs!=20
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> > I look forwards to hearing if you find out more about Don Hatch i know ve=
> ry little about him and what he did. He had originally agreed to the intevi=
> ew and then felt camera shy. I can understand that.=20
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> > In terms of elegant solutions my instinct is that Vanilla siteswaps is as=
> simple as it gets. However i can imagine something more elegant for synchr=
> onous, MHN etc
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> > time will tell indubitably
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> > thanks for thoughts
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> > Sean G
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> > > Thank you for sharing that article - it's very interesting - I'm surpri=
> sed there are so many variations on the ladder diagram.
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> > > It does make one wonder if there are any other elegant solutions to a j=
> uggling notation that make sense mathematically and logically, but in diffe=
> rent ways...
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> > > Thank you for giving your thoughts!
>
> Hi Sean
>
> I would like to say a few things about Don He is a really cool guy and I e=
> njoyed meeting him. I was introduced to Don by a friend who said that he al=
> so invented the numbers. I can not remember when I first met him but I reme=
> mber thinking that both of use were six ball jugglers so that makes it arou=
> nd 1987. I think Don said it was earlier than that, and he is probably righ=
> t because maybe that was the second time I've met him. But I do remember cl=
> early that he was the first person I've met that used and completely unders=
> tood the same number system. We were at the same skill level so it was lik=
> e we could say any pattern and both of us could do it. On the first day of =
> inventing the numbers in 1981 I came up with a algorithm to crank out all t=
> he permutations, but I did not have a computer then so I figured out all th=
> e permutations up to five throws using my notation. There are hundred of si=
> x throw patterns and most of them suck so I didn't bother discovering them =
> all. It is better to design them then to sort through them all. One day Don=
> gave me a long computer printout of all permutations up to seven throws. I=
> used it for years, and still have it's tattered remains in storage. I have=
> been telling everyone for years that he was someone that also invented the=
> numbers at the same time and place. It was not until a few years ago, that=
> a juggling friend of mine said that it is unlikely that two people invente=
> d the same thing at the same time and maybe he heard about it subconsciousl=
> y. Well that got me thinking. For one thing, we are talking about after tho=
> usands of years of juggling history, two people with the same skill level i=
> nventing the same exact number system within months and within a mile of ea=
> ch other. Not years, thousands of miles, and a different system as in the c=
> ase of Boppo and I. Soon after I invented my system I would hangout at the =
> computer center at UCSC to try to find someone who could write a program fo=
> r me to create a long list of patterns. I gave up after asking a couple of =
> students because it wasn't that important to me, and it was easy to create =
> the patterns with my notation and graph paper. So now I'm wondering if he o=
> verheard my conversation with them. Any how, If it is true that he invented=
> it on his own, that would be a truly amazing coincidence. I saw Don a coup=
> le of years ago again, and asked him when he invented the numbers and said =
> =93Yea - I was playing around with those numbers in 1981=94. That was the l=
> ast thing I heard him say and it kind of left hanging because you can inter=
> pret that in different ways. If there is anyone else who invented the same =
> number system, I would say it was Don. I would like to know how he invented=
> it, and what his notation looks like.
>
> Paul
Interesting to hear about Don Hatch. I don't remember hearing about him
either.
I don't agree that it would be a huge coincidence for two people to
independently come up with the same system and notation. As Sean said, the
system and notation is straight out of the book. It is the simplest notation
for writing any juggling pattern based on throwing to different heights to
change the order that the balls are caught in. It's therefore logical that
anyone working on notating these kind of juggling patterns for long enough to
make them as simple and useful as possible would eventually arrive at the same
notation. I'm sure that if the Cambridge group had more time working
independently, they would have added 1 to each number so that gaps could be
represented and so that averages work.
As for coming up with the notation at the same time, that is more of a
coincidence but I don't think it's very unlikely. Around the early 1980s
computers were becoming more widespread by everyone and I think people started
thinking about things in terms of something that could be easily represented
and generated by a computer. Diagrams were out and numbers were in. This is
complete hypothesis and I'm not speaking from personal experience as I was
only 1 at the time.