Some questions about JUGGLE and the IJA
It's Him
wanted to get Juggle magazine. In the latest copy they are talking about
axing the magazine or doing something else to increase their membership from
2000.
I thought, 2000! That's smaller than some EJCs. There must be several
hundred people who read rec.juggling every week so why is there membership
so small.
Here goes with the questions.
1) Are you a member of the IJA?
2) Do you think their magazine is to UScentric?
3) Would you care if Juggle (or equivalent) ceased to exist?
4) Would you want to be a member of the IJA if it was truly International?
5) Do you think your juggling club should be affiliated to the IJA if that
was made an easier and more sensible process? (By which I mean, pay some
money to join and you get a whole load of workshop ideas, including teaching
strategies and games, as well as the magazine - and not having to prove
anything about your club other than that it contains at least one IJA
member).
6) What amount of money are you prepared to pay a year to be a member of the
IJA (and receive 6 magazines)?
7) Do you have any other thoughts that you think are relevant to IJA board
members.(I'm not one)?
Nigel
Charlie
> I own up to the fact that I am a member of the IJA, primarily because I
> wanted to get Juggle magazine. In the latest copy they are talking about
> axing the magazine or doing something else to increase their membership from
> 2000.
>
> I thought, 2000! That's smaller than some EJCs. There must be several
> hundred people who read rec.juggling every week so why is there membership
> so small.
>
> Here goes with the questions.
>
> 1) Are you a member of the IJA?
> 2) Do you think their magazine is to UScentric?
> 3) Would you care if Juggle (or equivalent) ceased to exist?
> 4) Would you want to be a member of the IJA if it was truly International?
> 5) Do you think your juggling club should be affiliated to the IJA if that
> was made an easier and more sensible process? (By which I mean, pay some
> money to join and you get a whole load of workshop ideas, including teaching
> strategies and games, as well as the magazine - and not having to prove
> anything about your club other than that it contains at least one IJA
> member).
interested if it was truly useful; for example if we could buy liability
insurance cheaper via the IJA.
> 6) What amount of money are you prepared to pay a year to be a member of the
> IJA (and receive 6 magazines)?
> 7) Do you have any other thoughts that you think are relevant to IJA board
> members.(I'm not one)?
EJC works with country reps. Be *completely* transparent in your
workings. Start offering real benefits to members, not just a magazine
and a warm fluffy feeling.
>
> Nigel
>
>
Charlie
Little Paul
> I thought, 2000! That's smaller than some EJCs. There must be several
> hundred people who read rec.juggling every week so why is there membership
> so small.
Woohoo! It appears to be retro-mid-1990s-troll season :-) I'll bite!
> Here goes with the questions.
>
> 1) Are you a member of the IJA?
No, but I nearly was at one point until one of the more prominent members
took objection to me, and made it very clear that I was unwelcome.
> 2) Do you think their magazine is to UScentric?
From what I've read of it, it was pretty good and reflected the
interests of the majority of their membership. Yes that makes it rather
US centric, but the membership is currently very US centric.
I don't personally have a problem with this.
If you want the magasine to cover more of the scene outside the US,
perhaps it might be an idea to write an article or two - encourage
others to do the same...
> 3) Would you care if Juggle (or equivalent) ceased to exist?
Yes. Very definately.
In my mind, there will *always* be a place for paper based juggling
mags. Even though I don't subscribe to JUGGLE, I do obtain the
occasional copy through other routes and I'd hate to see such a rich
record of the juggling scene decline.
> 4) Would you want to be a member of the IJA if it was truly International?
Perhaps, perhaps not.
That all depends on how much shit I get next time I express an interest
in taking an active part in the procedings.
> 5) Do you think your juggling club should be affiliated to the IJA if that
> was made an easier and more sensible process? (By which I mean, pay some
> money to join and you get a whole load of workshop ideas, including teaching
> strategies and games, as well as the magazine - and not having to prove
> anything about your club other than that it contains at least one IJA
> member).
Thinking mainly about my local clubs, I don't see that any of the above
would benefit us. I can see how it would be helpful for a new club,
trying to establish themselves in an area with little or no juggling
scene - but then none of my local clubs are in that position.
> 6) What amount of money are you prepared to pay a year to be a member of the
> IJA (and receive 6 magazines)?
6 magazines, at £2.50 a pop - call it £15 (circa $30) for the magazine subscription
Any more than that and I'd be wanting a bit more benefit than a magazine
subscription and access to the roster.
> 7) Do you have any other thoughts that you think are relevant to IJA board
> members.(I'm not one)?
I think that the IJA isn't relevant to my local juggling scene. It
isn't in a position to offer anything useful to us - infact, I'm not
even sure what it *could* offer.
My local juggling scene is alive, vibrant, has 3 regular clubs and
another 2 within a 30 minute drive - we've even got 2 annual conventions
in the local area, two circus schools and a shed load of local talent.
All of which is completely without IJA involvement.
About the only thing the IJA *could* offer me at the moment, is JUGGLE
magazine.
-Paul
Little Paul
> don't care about that - I know how to teach juggling - but would be
> interested if it was truly useful; for example if we could buy liability
> insurance cheaper via the IJA.
Actually, that *is* a benefit that the IJA could offer my local juggling scene.
Currently the IJA is more like a "club" - if it was more like a "union"
and offered things like deals with insurers, legal help chasing late
payments for gigs, and the other benefits provided by ooh, something
like equity - then it would have more teeth, and would be more
attractive.
At the moment, it's main benefits appear to be
- a magazine that's due to be discontinued
- a list of its membership
- an information pack about how to teach juggling
- the festival.
The first is useful to all, the second is of marginal use to working
pros. The third is potentially useful to those begining to go pro on
the workshop circuit but few others.
The last is the most useful to the most people.
There is nothing there that's a "killer app" - a "must have" for working
pros. very little of it is a "killer app" for people that can't attend
the festival.
Apart from possibly the magazine.
And by all accounts, that's going.
-Paul
unicrnjuglr
I'm VERY interested in this thread! As an IJA board member and currently
working on proposals and
ideas for the new IJA publication I need to hear your ideas and what IJA
members and potential
members want from our organization. On an exciting note...there should be
information about
insurance through the IJA after the fest next week! I'll post hear what
happens on that front.
Little Paul, you posted about a prominent member of the IJA making you
feel unwelcome. I'm sorry for
that experience. I would like to hear what happened and who that member
was so that incidents like
this hopefully don't happen in the future. Little Paul or anyone can email
me at la...@juggle.org with
constructive suggestions for the IJA. Let me know what will make our fest
more appealing, the
magazine more update and functional, and the organization more beneficial
to our members!
Thanks in advance!!!
--
----== posted via www.jugglingdb.com ==----
It's Him
"Little Paul" <use...@lpbk.net> wrote in message
news:44b62938$0$4387$da0f...@news.zen.co.uk...
> On 2006-07-13, It's Him <its...@itshimnospamthanks.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> I thought, 2000! That's smaller than some EJCs. There must be several
>> hundred people who read rec.juggling every week so why is there
>> membership
>> so small.
>
> Woohoo! It appears to be retro-mid-1990s-troll season :-) I'll bite!
>
Actually I was thinking of lumping all the responses together and sending
them to the IJA board of directors.
If there are enough of them I might even present the data in easy to
understand graphs and reach conclusions drawn from the data. It's possible
that I might then let the juggling community know these results as well. On
the other hand I could just construct a mindless questionaire that is
directed at the instant jugglers get over a hundred responses but never
publish any findings. (down troll!)
Really it was a case of thinking. I'd like the idea of an International
organisation that exists to promote juggling in all its various forms and
not just a US one, plus a number of other organisations that almost entirely
organise conventions. I like conventions but I spend maybe 12 days a year at
them. I spend a hell of a lot more of my time in other juggling related
stuff. Like reading and posting here, going to clubs, working, watching
DVDs, creating new tricks etc etc. I would like an organisation to exist
which encompassed all of that. Although I realise that I can handle it all
without that organisation.
I can envision an organisation with three types of membership:
1) ordinary member - just after the magazine, the convention videos, the
convention.
2) performing member - gains public liability insurance, access to a legal
team, advice on promotional matters, increased job opportunities, network
support from other performers etc.
3) workshop member - gains group public liability insurance, access to
teaching material including a level based tutorial system if wanted, a
source of cheaper props through the bulk purchase capabilities of a large
group etc.
It shouldn't be difficult to do all this if people wanted it and I'm quite
prepared to do a bit myself to help, however I doubt it will happen.
Nigel
Trying not to get into rant mode
Little Paul
>
> I can envision an organisation with three types of membership:
>
> 1) ordinary member - just after the magazine, the convention videos, the
> convention.
> 2) performing member - gains public liability insurance, access to a legal
> team, advice on promotional matters, increased job opportunities, network
> support from other performers etc.
> 3) workshop member - gains group public liability insurance, access to
> teaching material including a level based tutorial system if wanted, a
> source of cheaper props through the bulk purchase capabilities of a large
> group etc.
Actually, that all sounds rather sensible. The membership fees involved
would be scalable (naturally! It's only right that the performing
membership should foot the bill for dealing with insurers etc)
-Paul
Mutton
Nigel, when the time comes, will you be posting the results to the IJA
forum? I'm sure they would very much appreciate it.
--
Andrew Gradisher
Little Paul
>
> Little Paul, you posted about a prominent member of the IJA making you
> feel unwelcome. I'm sorry for that experience. I would like to hear
> what happened and who that member was so that incidents like this
> hopefully don't happen in the future.
I won't go into detail, as I don't believe it would help anyone to
name the person involved. Muck raking never helps anyone, and I'm sure
he's done a lot of good for the organisation.
Afterall, I am just one juggler.
That said, I would *never* seek to discourage someone from joining the
IJA. As an organisation is only ever as good as its membership and the
ideal place to shape it is from the inside.
I'd like to encourage more people to join it, take an active part in it,
and if they feel change is nescesarry - drive it from the inside.
-Paul
Mutton
> I own up to the fact that I am a member of the IJA, primarily because I
> wanted to get Juggle magazine. In the latest copy they are talking about
> axing the magazine or doing something else to increase their membership from
> 2000.
>
> I thought, 2000! That's smaller than some EJCs. There must be several
> hundred people who read rec.juggling every week so why is there membership
> so small.
>
> Here goes with the questions.
>
> 1) Are you a member of the IJA?
Yes.
> 2) Do you think their magazine is to UScentric?
No. Although I can't remember the last time someone wrote in reporting
on a festival in the UK... they seem to have a million a year so it's
kind of surprising. :)
> 3) Would you care if Juggle (or equivalent) ceased to exist?
Definitely.
> 4) Would you want to be a member of the IJA if it was truly International?
As a North American, this is moot to me. I do wish it could be more
international in terms of festival reports and stuff that Little Paul
mentioned.
> 5) Do you think your juggling club should be affiliated to the IJA if that
> was made an easier and more sensible process? (By which I mean, pay some
> money to join and you get a whole load of workshop ideas, including teaching
> strategies and games, as well as the magazine - and not having to prove
> anything about your club other than that it contains at least one IJA
> member).
No clue.
> 6) What amount of money are you prepared to pay a year to be a member of the
> IJA (and receive 6 magazines)?
$50.
> 7) Do you have any other thoughts that you think are relevant to IJA board
> members.(I'm not one)?
Nope.
>
> Nigel
>
>
--
Andrew Gradisher
Hubris
> Here goes with the questions.
>
> 1) Are you a member of the IJA?
Yes, and I have been for about two years now.
> 2) Do you think their magazine is too UScentric?
Speaking as an American, I would say no. If you look back through the
issues, you can read about all kinds of jugglers from overseas (Dietz,
Jonglissimo, a mexican juggler whose name I've forgotten, and the indian
janitor from Terminal who is also a maginificent juggler.) It reports on
all types of international festivals, but as was said earlier, it could do
a little better with coverage of the British festivals. Even the DVD and
book review section often reviews DVDs and books not in english, and from
places like Japan and Scandinavia.
> 3) Would you care if Juggle (or equivalent) ceased to exist?
Yes. It gives me, a young juggler, more background information about what
I do. Had it not been for JUGGLE, I may never have learned about how
fantastic jugglers of the past have been(I didn't even know jugglers
juggled 6 or 7 balls way back when before I read it in JUGGLE).
> 4) Would you want to be a member of the IJA if it was truly International?
I am one, but I love to be one even more if it was more international.
> 5) Do you think your juggling club should be affiliated to the IJA if that
> was made an easier and more sensible process? (By which I mean, pay some
> money to join and you get a whole load of workshop ideas, including teaching
> strategies and games, as well as the magazine - and not having to prove
> anything about your club other than that it contains at least one IJA
> member).
Yes. I also think they should try to have local clubs collaborate for
events. In my area (Washington, D.C.), we have about 3 or 4 clubs which
meet pretty regularly. If all of the clubs got together and hosted an
event, or even if they had nights where people from two of the clubs would
all meet, the diffusion of ideas would be great. I think if all clubs were
IJA-affiliated and were strongly emphasized by the IJA to collaborate on
events and ideas, then the clubs would be more willing to follow, at least
in my area. Maybe have contests to win props or a contest for a club to
win the money to run a festival if it works together with other clubs in
the area?
> 6) What amount of money are you prepared to pay a year to be a member of the
> IJA (and receive 6 magazines)?
I've already paid the price for it, but I imagine $50 a year wouldn't be
too much of a hassle.
> 7) Do you have any other thoughts that you think are relevant to IJA board
> members.(I'm not one)?
You have a lot of power to spread juggling and get things going, but I
feel you rarely do. If the IJA did more than just publish a magazine and
have a US-based festival(don't get me wrong, these are wonderful things),
I imagine IJA support would sky-rocket.
NFS...
It's Him
> Nigel, when the time comes, will you be posting the results to the IJA
> forum? I'm sure they would very much appreciate it.
>
> --
> Andrew Gradisher
I'll do my darnedest. If I get enough responses in the first place to make
it worthwhile.
Nigel
Mangatang
No. No particular reason, just never have joined.
> 2) Do you think their magazine is to UScentric?
I don't know, I don't remember ever seeing the magazine.
> 3) Would you care if Juggle (or equivalent) ceased to exist?
I've never read Juggle, but now that you mention it, I would like to get a
subscription.
> 4) Would you want to be a member of the IJA if it was truly International?
Again, I have no bias to comment, but I would like it to be
"international". Even though I'm from the US, most of jugglers that I
have corresponded with are from Europe, so I assume there is a large
juggling population there. It would be nice if IJA catered to them as
much as anybody else.
> 5) Do you think your juggling club should be affiliated to the IJA if that
> was made an easier and more sensible process? (By which I mean, pay some
> money to join and you get a whole load of workshop ideas, including teaching
> strategies and games, as well as the magazine - and not having to prove
> anything about your club other than that it contains at least one IJA
> member).
My juggling club is a very informal gathering. We meet in the park each
week and juggle. If any bystanders happen by and want to give it a try,
we abridge. I wouldn't mind IJA listing our club info so anyone traveling
to my city would know where/when to meet us.
> 6) What amount of money are you prepared to pay a year to be a member of the
> IJA (and receive 6 magazines)?
Since I'm not a professional or anything, I would mainly just want the
magazine, and maybe some day I'll go to a convention. So, something like
$30-$50.
> 7) Do you have any other thoughts that you think are relevant to IJA board
> members.(I'm not one)?
I can't think of anything right now.
MonkeyJuggler
> Here goes with the questions.
>
> 1) Are you a member of the IJA?
No.
> 2) Do you think their magazine is to UScentric?
Never so much as seen a copy of it so I'm not able to comment.
> 3) Would you care if Juggle (or equivalent) ceased to exist?
Not really. It's had no impact on me. If it's viable then you should be
able to buy subscriptions just for the mag.
> 4) Would you want to be a member of the IJA if it was truly International?
Probably not. About the only thing that would push me into it would be if
conventions started being IJA members only (or giving members discounts).
Considering that the "scene" in the UK and Europe is doing perfectly well
enough without such an organisaion any membership seems rather superfluous
to me.
> 5) Do you think your juggling club should be affiliated to the IJA if that
> was made an easier and more sensible process? (By which I mean, pay some
> money to join and you get a whole load of workshop ideas, including teaching
> strategies and games, as well as the magazine - and not having to prove
> anything about your club other than that it contains at least one IJA
> member).
Seems an awful lot of unnecessary faff to allow us to do what we're
already doing. A better option would be a co-ordinated event such as WJD
and some publicity to get newbies interested.
> 6) What amount of money are you prepared to pay a year to be a member of the
> IJA (and receive 6 magazines)?
£0 (I won't translate that into dollars).
> 7) Do you have any other thoughts that you think are relevant to IJA board
> members.(I'm not one)?
I don't know what you currently do. I don't know what you can do to make
my hobby more interesting or fun. Justify yourself to me (if you care).
That was pretty negative I admit. I don't see quite why we need an
organisation to organise or oversee juggling. I've been juggling for nigh
on 15 years and have not been a member of anything related to my hobby
(although I'll doff my cap to the EJA for their work re the EJC's and to
the many people who have organised the scores of conventions I've attended
in that time). Actually this leads me to think that such an organisation
maybe could exist to co-ordinate a performer/workshop leader and
show/convention matching service.
Have fun.
Alan (Aka PhysioMonkey)
max
> I own up to the fact that I am a member of the IJA, primarily because I
> wanted to get Juggle magazine. In the latest copy they are talking about
> axing the magazine or doing something else to increase their membership from
> 2000.
>
> I thought, 2000! That's smaller than some EJCs. There must be several
> hundred people who read rec.juggling every week so why is there membership
> so small.
>
> Here goes with the questions.
>
> 1) Are you a member of the IJA?
> 2) Do you think their magazine is to UScentric?
yes, but less that the IJA.
> 3) Would you care if Juggle (or equivalent) ceased to exist?
no, maybe it would allow something none UScentric to come out, people
would have to buy kaskade http://www.kaskade.de.
> 4) Would you want to be a member of the IJA if it was truly International?
More than if it stays UScentric, it depend on how it becomes truly
International, I think the is a place for a truly international
convention, but I think the EJA is better at conventions than the IJA.
> 5) Do you think your juggling club should be affiliated to the IJA if that
> was made an easier and more sensible process? (By which I mean, pay some
> money to join and you get a whole load of workshop ideas, including teaching
> strategies and games, as well as the magazine - and not having to prove
> anything about your club other than that it contains at least one IJA
> member).
The worry I have is that the would be yet another system of levels, more
pressing on the "right" way to juggle! A move towards sport and
competition, which I personal don't like, I think it is quite good that
some clubs teach one way and others teach another.
> 6) What amount of money are you prepared to pay a year to be a member of the
> IJA (and receive 6 magazines)?
That depends on what you get, I don't think the magazine on its own is
the seller.
> 7) Do you have any other thoughts that you think are relevant to IJA board
> members.(I'm not one)?
I think the main problem is the IJA festival, mostly the cost of it and
the locations.
The fact that The IJA should be renamed the USAJA, the EJA does more for
International juggling that the IJA has **by the amount of countries it
has covered** tbilisi georgia was the only real international
convention, the EJC festivals cost less and the locations are better.
When the IJA start having festivals world wide, and a world wide
magazine, then it will represent better an International jugglers
Association, until then it is just another big mouthed American Association.
max
Mutton
> I think the main problem is the IJA festival, mostly the cost of it and
> the locations.
>
> The fact that The IJA should be renamed the USAJA, the EJA does more for
> International juggling that the IJA has **by the amount of countries it
> has covered** tbilisi georgia was the only real international
> convention, the EJC festivals cost less and the locations are better.
>
> When the IJA start having festivals world wide, and a world wide
> magazine, then it will represent better an International jugglers
> Association, until then it is just another big mouthed American Association.
>
> max
Ah, the catch 22. The IJA needs more international members for an
international (read: European) festival to be worthwhile. The
international community needs an international festival for the IJA to
be worthwhile.
--
Andrew Gradisher
max
>
> Ah, the catch 22. The IJA needs more international members for an
> international (read: European) festival to be worthwhile. The
> international community needs an international festival for the IJA to
> be worthwhile.
Why do you need to be a member to go to the IJA convention?
It does not have to make a profit to be worthwhile. So what does it have
to do, to be worthwhile?
I would think, live up to it's name International...
The EJC is not making a profit all the time, but is it not worthwhile.
http://www.eja.net/en/visualisation.html.
Greg Phillips
> Why do you need to be a member to go to the IJA convention?
Two reasons: Historical: the IJA convention has always been the
convention of the organisation's members. Practical: Insurance for the
convention is cheaper if you can say with a straight face that everyone
attending is a member of a particular organisation.
> I would think, live up to it's name International...
There are several answers to this. The IJA currently has members from
29 different countries. The first EJC was actually an "IJA European
Mini-Convention". Oh, and here are the results from the 2005 Stage
Championships:
Individuals
1st: Ryo Yabe, Japan
2nd: Mark Kolbusz, USA
3rd: Cecile Poncet, France/Canada
Teams
1st: Jonglissimo (Christoph Mitasch & Manuel Mitasch), Gallneukirchen,
Austria
2nd: Kikyo Brothers (Atsushi Kikyo & Takashi Kikyo), Yokohama, Japan
3rd: Entropy (Tony Gonzalez & Will Oltman), Barbuda
Juniors
1st: Kazuhiro Shindo, Tokyo, Japan, age 17
2nd: Komei Aoki, Tokyo, Japan, age 16
3rd: Takashi Kikyo, Yokohama, Japan, age 14
Looks pretty international to me.
Greg
Greg Phillips
> Ah, the catch 22. The IJA needs more international members for an
> international (read: European) festival to be worthwhile. The
> international community needs an international festival for the IJA to
> be worthwhile.
There is no reason for the IJA to run a European festival. There's
already a perfectly good one called the EJC. And while the EJA has
since grown into a very different kind of organisation from the IJA,
the first EJC was actually an IJA event (look it up).
Greg
Michael Ferguson
dated 13 Jul 2006 12:08:34 -0700, "Greg Phillips" <greg.p...@rmc.ca>
wrote:
> [..,] Oh, and here are the results from the 2005 Stage
> Championships:
> [...]
> Teams
> 1st: Jonglissimo (Christoph Mitasch & Manuel Mitasch), Gallneukirchen,
> Austria
> 2nd: Kikyo Brothers (Atsushi Kikyo & Takashi Kikyo), Yokohama, Japan
> 3rd: Entropy (Tony Gonzalez & Will Oltman), Barbuda
LOL!
Yeah, Barbuda. I think that's a suburb of Chicago, isn't it?
; )
Respectfully submitted,
--
Michael Ferguson (a.k.a. Fergie)
max
> max wrote:
>> Why do you need to be a member to go to the IJA convention?
>
> Two reasons: Historical: the IJA convention has always been the
> convention of the organisation's members.
I don't think Historical reasons are good all the time.
Why are the organization members, members?
I would think ***guess*** they are for the magazine and for the
convention! And if the IJA are thinking of drop the magazine, then I
would ***guess*** for the convention?
After thinking about that one, a little longer, maybe it is hard to go
to a IJA convention without been a member (did I just say that), so the
reasons may be that the IJA make it hard to go without been a member?
> Practical: Insurance for the convention is cheaper if you can say with
> a straight face that everyone attending is a member of a particular
> organisation.
Well, the EJC seems to manage without this.
Ok, they don't have a straight face all the time, and they do sometimes
make everyone attending a convention a member of the convention associ!
>> I would think, live up to it's name International...
>
> There are several answers to this. The IJA currently has members from
> 29 different countries.
Let me just do the statics's on that... how many members are the from
the USA and how many are the from each of the other countries?
> The first EJC was actually an "IJA European
> Mini-Convention".
The first EJC was actually an IJA mini convention, Not a IJA convention!
> Oh, and here are the results from the 2005 Stage
> Championships:
>
> Individuals
> 1st: Ryo Yabe, Japan
> 2nd: Mark Kolbusz, USA
> 3rd: Cecile Poncet, France/Canada
>
> Teams
> 1st: Jonglissimo (Christoph Mitasch & Manuel Mitasch), Gallneukirchen,
> Austria
> 2nd: Kikyo Brothers (Atsushi Kikyo & Takashi Kikyo), Yokohama, Japan
> 3rd: Entropy (Tony Gonzalez & Will Oltman), Barbuda
>
> Juniors
> 1st: Kazuhiro Shindo, Tokyo, Japan, age 17
> 2nd: Komei Aoki, Tokyo, Japan, age 16
> 3rd: Takashi Kikyo, Yokohama, Japan, age 14
>
> Looks pretty international to me.
Are you saying that it is right that with 1 American in 9 International
contenders in the championships, the past 6 conventions and the next one
will be in the USA?
Yes it is pretty international, so why keep the convention in the USA?
And no not always in Europe although I have no objection, the are lots
of other places than the around the world to have it?
Greg Phillips
> Why are the organization members, members?
>
> I would think ***guess*** they are for the magazine and for the
> convention! And if the IJA are thinking of drop the magazine, then I
> would ***guess*** for the convention?
The IJA is not "thinking of dropping the magazine". The contract with
the current publisher is expiring and the Board is in the process of
finding a new publisher and a new publishing model. The outgoing Board
members and the members standing for election have pretty much all said
that maintaining a quality magazine is a high priority.
> Let me just do the statics's on that... how many members are the from
> the USA and how many are the from each of the other countries?
If you were an IJA member you could download the Roster and get the
exact numbers. However, I'll throw you a bone and say that, as of June
2006, 87% of IJA members were from the United States. Which means that
13% were from somewhere else in the world. (For the record, I'm one of
those 13%.)
> Are you saying that it is right that with 1 American in 9 International
> contenders in the championships, the past 6 conventions and the next one
> will be in the USA?
Those aren't the contenders, those are the winners. And you've
miscounted: it's two Americans (Entropy is from the USA) and seven from
elsewhere. However, yes, the next IJA festival will be in the USA
(Portland, Oregon, next week) as will the one after that.
> Yes it is pretty international, so why keep the convention in the USA?
The IJA Festival is the big North American fest, so it's likely that
there'll be an IJA Festival in North America each year for the
foreseeable future. There could also be an IJA Festival somewhere else
--- if someone were interested in running one.
You seem to care, so why not organise one? Whining that the IJA isn't
doing what you want it to do, when you're not even a member, is pretty
unseemly from where I sit. The IJA is a volunteer organisation, by
jugglers for jugglers. If you want it to do something different, pitch
in and volunteer yourself.
Greg
Chiok
> Here goes with the questions.
>
> 1) Are you a member of the IJA?
Nope, thought about joining, then decided not. £2.75 every 2 months for
the JUGGLE magazine? Hmm, don't know.
> 2) Do you think their magazine is to UScentric?
Fraid I've not read a copy to comment, though it's produced in the US, so
perhaps?
> 3) Would you care if Juggle (or equivalent) ceased to exist?
I would care that there would be one less material medium of juggling in
the world, I don't think there are enough decent publications as it is.
> 4) Would you want to be a member of the IJA if it was truly International?
Now here's the thing, the conventions sound great with top attendees and
some nice facilities from what I hear. However, how come you have to pay
your $30 membership fee, and then still pay $180 to get into the
convention? And then an extra $10 for every competition you want to
enter? Is that what the bundled costs of holding a convention, a magazine
and prize money amount to? I can kinda see a point to it as prize money
is quite a bit, isn't it? And you'd get some of the best coming to
compete. But the EJC and BJC get the world's best too to just come along
for fun and play in the show.
If the IJA said, "We're considering taking the festival outside of the USA
to say... London" I'd sign up. They wouldn't have to organise anything,
just say they would to get the members to get the money to move it.
> 5) Do you think your juggling club should be affiliated to the IJA if that
> was made an easier and more sensible process? (By which I mean, pay some
> money to join and you get a whole load of workshop ideas, including teaching
> strategies and games, as well as the magazine - and not having to prove
> anything about your club other than that it contains at least one IJA
> member).
Hmm, as a University club, perhaps. Many other societies are members of
their respectively larger organisations (Radio, Girl Guiding, Lifesaving
etc.) But I don't think the ideas suggested would add anything to that
unfortunately, we're fine teaching workshops and have plenty of games.
> 6) What amount of money are you prepared to pay a year to be a member of the
> IJA (and receive 6 magazines)?
All I can see that you get for your money is the magazine. The whole
membership thing I don't understand, why isn't that just in the convention
cost since that's the only other thing you get from it from what I
understand. I'd pay the $30 if they were delivered to me.
> 7) Do you have any other thoughts that you think are relevant to IJA board
> members.(I'm not one)?
Does everyone need to be a member upfront for the conventions because of
insurance? Not sure how things work over in the US, but if you pay to
enter something, you are essentially a member already. Though perhaps
having larger numbers on paper gets a better discount (since I imagine a
fair number of IJA members don't go to the convention).
I can see why the IJA has stayed in the US. It is the USA's largest
juggling convention all year and it's an awfully large place so it should
have a big convention like the EJC. If it moved without a replacement, I
can envisage alot of Americans bitching that it's too far to travel.
Though most probably travel much further than I do to go to a convention.
I don't consider it if i have to go more than 100 miles.
We're spoilt for choice here in the UK.
Chiok
www.gravityvomit.co.uk
(good at answering my own questions)
Little Paul
>
>> Practical: Insurance for the convention is cheaper if you can say with
>> a straight face that everyone attending is a member of a particular
>> organisation.
>
> Well, the EJC seems to manage without this.
The EJC is never held in the litigious minefield that is modern America.
It's a country where you can (and people do) sue anyone for anything.
Even your own stupidity.
In a country where people can successfully sue a supermarket when they
trip over an unruly child (that just happens to be *their* child) -
insurance costs for events skyrocket. Anything that can be done to
reduce the cost of insurance for an event has to be done.
If that means requiring that all attendees are members - then that's
what should be done.
Perhaps a better approach might be to make the membership costs more
granular.
You could then have (in order of cost)
basic membership:
- Entitles you to attend the fest and nothing else. This could be
cheap (in the region of $5 a year) or even free when purchased with a
festival pass. I guess you could roll the DVD discount etc into this
as well.
magasine subscription
- Somewhere around the $30-$50 mark, it *includes* basic membership,
but also gets you a copy of the mag
workshop subscription
- as described by nigel
performer subscription
- as described by nigel
etc.
This gets you around the insurance problem, people who only want to
attend the fest can do so without having to pay to receive the mag.
People who want the mag pay for it.
>> There are several answers to this. The IJA currently has members from
>> 29 different countries.
>
> Let me just do the statics's on that... how many members are the from
> the USA and how many are the from each of the other countries?
I'm coming round to the idea that the under-representation of countries
outside the US is not entirely the IJAs fault.
OK, so it is partly. The IJA could do more to encourage projects
outside the US, it could do more to encourage membership outside the
US... but it's only going to be *worth* the IJA doing that if people
from outside the US get involved.
>> The first EJC was actually an "IJA European
>> Mini-Convention".
>
> The first EJC was actually an IJA mini convention, Not a IJA convention!
It's indisputable that without the IJA, the EJC would not exist in its
current form today.
However "we did it once, 30 years ago!" is inadmissable as proof that
the IJA is helping european jugglers *today*
>> Looks pretty international to me.
>
> Are you saying that it is right that with 1 American in 9 International
> contenders in the championships, the past 6 conventions and the next one
> will be in the USA?
If you stop thinking of the IJA fest as the *IJA* fest - and start
thinking of it as the "North American Juggling Convention" - it becomes
comparable with the BJC, The Netherlands convention, the NZ convention
etc.
It's a national convention, that happens to be helped out by an
international organisation.
I wouldn't wish to seperate the North Americans from their national
convention - that just wouldn't be fair. However, I do believe there is
space for more conventions to be held outside of the US - with IJA
support.
> Yes it is pretty international, so why keep the convention in the USA?
Because if you move it, you deprive a thousand or so North Americans
from their national convention.
If for example, they were to bring back the IJA Winter fest - but have
that roam around the world, being largely organised by local jugglers,
and for anyone who cares to turn up - shurely that would be the best of
both worlds?
The best way to achieve this seems to be to have "country reps" - in a
manner similar to the EJA. These country reps could then do the legwork
required to put on the festival in their home country, have the IJA help
to underwrite the costs of the convention. The IJA gets more members
out of the deal (at least at "basic" level as mentioned above) the world
gets another convention out of the deal, jugglings profile is raised in
the host country - everyone wins!
> And no not always in Europe although I have no objection, the are lots
> of other places than the around the world to have it?
If a second roaming fest was to be set up, personally I'd like to see it
concentrate on countrys that are not covered by the scope of the EJA.
I'd *love* an opportunity to go to a large fest in africa for example.
> There is no reason for the IJA to run a European festival.
Indeed.
But if the welsh wanted to host a festival, and did it with IJA backing
and support - I wouldn't object to that either.
-Paul
max
> The EJC is never held in the litigious minefield that is modern America.
Another good reason to *not* have it in North America every year.
> Perhaps a better approach might be to make the membership costs more
> granular.
Yes, that sounds good.
> If for example, they were to bring back the IJA Winter fest - but have
> that roam around the world, being largely organised by local jugglers,
> and for anyone who cares to turn up - shurely that would be the best of
> both worlds?
Great move in right direction.
> I'm coming round to the idea that the under-representation of countries
> outside the US is not entirely the IJAs fault.
>
> OK, so it is partly. The IJA could do more to encourage projects
> outside the US, it could do more to encourage membership outside the
> US... but it's only going to be *worth* the IJA doing that if people
> from outside the US get involved.
I still am not getting this *worth* stuff, but the does seem to be a
need for more members from outside the US to make the I in IJA.
> If you stop thinking of the IJA fest as the *IJA* fest - and start
> thinking of it as the "North American Juggling Convention" - it becomes
> comparable with the BJC, The Netherlands convention, the NZ convention
> etc.
Yes, I would like a split, someone fly to North America and set up the
NAJA, then lots of people join the IJA and organize convention world wide...
>> Yes it is pretty international, so why keep the convention in the USA?
>
> Because if you move it, you deprive a thousand or so North Americans
> from their national convention.
I still think North Americans should have there own name like JANA not IJA.
> If for example, they were to bring back the IJA Winter fest - but have
> that roam around the world, being largely organised by local jugglers,
> and for anyone who cares to turn up - shurely that would be the best of
> both worlds?
>
Sounds like a good way to start, it is another move in the right direction.
> I'd *love* an opportunity to go to a large fest in africa for example.
I'd *love* an opportunity to go to a large fest in Lithuania for example.
> But if the welsh wanted to host a festival, and did it with IJA backing
> and support - I wouldn't object to that either.
Ok, Wales it is, I was hopping for a little further away but Wales is
great anyway, what is the location? How about Swansea? 2009?
max
> The IJA Festival is the big North American fest, so it's likely that
> there'll be an IJA Festival in North America each year for the
> foreseeable future. There could also be an IJA Festival somewhere else
> --- if someone were interested in running one.
>
> You seem to care, so why not organise one?
It would seem difficult to organize a convention that is "for the
foreseeable future" to be in North America. The EJA seems to be more
open to conventions outside Europe than the IJA is to outside North America!
> Whining that the IJA isn't
> doing what you want it to do, when you're not even a member, is pretty
> unseemly from where I sit.
I am sorry if you take my criticism as habitually complaining.
I was just saying why, I don't become a member, because someone asked!
You seem to want me to become a member, so I can say what I think about
the IJA!
> The IJA is a volunteer organisation, by
> jugglers for jugglers. If you want it to do something different, pitch
> in and volunteer yourself.
That sound great!
But:
"87% of IJA members were from the United States." which organize a
"Festival in North America each year for the
foreseeable future."
Looks like, the IJA needs a lot of new members to become International.
Or does the "International" just mean the IJA allows International
jugglers in an otherwise USA association?
But if I continue thinking the International really stands for world wide?
What support would I get from IJA to organize a convention?
In say Swansea.
The EJA offers would offers a lot of help http://www.eja.net/handbook/
All I could find on the IJA, is a list of requirements
http://www.juggle.org/business/festvenuereq.php
Little Paul
>>
>> OK, so it is partly. The IJA could do more to encourage projects
>> outside the US, it could do more to encourage membership outside the
>> US... but it's only going to be *worth* the IJA doing that if people
>> from outside the US get involved.
>
> I still am not getting this *worth* stuff, but the does seem to be a
> need for more members from outside the US to make the I in IJA.
If the IJA are going to run a festival, it has to *at least* break even.
To break even, a festival has to be sure it can attract enough
participants to cover its costs.
Lets say the organisation has 2000 members. 87% (1740) of those
memebers live in the USA. The other 13% (260) are scattered evenly
around the globe.
Assume 50% of the membership are interested in attending a festival that
is within a thousand miles of their location. That figure is probably a
bit low, but when working out attendance at your hypothetical event it's
good to budget based on low numbers.
If the fest is held in North America, 50% of the North American jugglers
are likely to attend - that's 870 people.
If the fest is held outside of North America, 50% of the Non-American
jugglers are likely to attend - that's 130 people.
Now, if you were in charge of organising an event, *for your membership*
- and you wanted to break even. Would you hold it where 870 people are
likely to turn up or where 130 people are likely to turn up?
To me, it seems obvious that the current IJA membership is much better
served by having the fest in North America.
The only way to change the figures to make an event *for the membership*
attractive outside North America is to change the ballance. If 50% of
the membership were from the USA and 50% weren't - then organising the
event outside of the USA is *much* more attractive, and seemingly more
likely to break even.
Currently, it's not worth the risk to satisfy just 260 people.
> Yes, I would like a split, someone fly to North America and set up the
> NAJA, then lots of people join the IJA and organize convention world wide...
Why form the NAJA? Why not just encourage lots of people to join the
IJA anyway? That way, the figures will work themselves out and (imho)
we'll very quickly see a roaming festival happen.
Until then, the demand from *the membership* isn't there.
If *you* want the IJA to come to you, do your bit to change the
demographic. Join. Encourage those in your local area to do the same.
You can't spark a revolution from your sofa.
>> Because if you move it, you deprive a thousand or so North Americans
>> from their national convention.
>
> I still think North Americans should have there own name like JANA not IJA.
I think North americans should be allowed to join the IJA. I think that
they should be encouraged to join the IJA. I also think the rest of the
world should be encouraged to join the IJA.
I don't see that we need to rip the fest out from under them.
Why do we need to replace the IJA fest completely? What's wrong with
augmenting it? What's wrong with having the IJA-Europe or IJA-Asia or
IJA-NorthAmerica fests?
If the demand is there - they will all be viable.
Hell, if the IBM can do it (The original parent organisation of the IJA
if I remember correctly) why can't the IJA?
> Ok, Wales it is, I was hopping for a little further away but Wales is
> great anyway, what is the location? How about Swansea? 2009?
If you've got a venue in mind, and the desire to Make It Happen - go for
it! I'm sure you'll get a lot of support! Can I sugest jugcon-org
mailing list as a starting point?
Hell, if you find the venue, I'll volunteer to run the workshop
schedule.
-Paul
It's Him
<snip loads of interesting stuff>
> Hell, if you find the venue, I'll volunteer to run the workshop
> schedule.
>
> -Paul
I'll run a couple of workshops at it. If it takes place at a time when I
don't have tons of work on. I recommend February or October. There are half
terms in both months, the entertainers aren't that busy. The world is grey
and dreary and people need something to brighten up their lives.
Nigel
Greg Phillips
historical point:
Little Paul wrote:
> Hell, if the IBM can do it (The original parent organisation of the IJA
> if I remember correctly) why can't the IJA?
The founding members of the IJA got together at an IBM [1] convention to
plot the IJA's formation, but the IJA was deliberately independent of the
IBM from first founding. See this article from the fortieth anniversary
edition of Jugglers' World (1987) for all the details:
http://www.juggle.org/archives/jw/39-2/39-2,p5.htm
By the way, you'll also find the answer to the perennial question "Why
isn't the IJA just called the 'American Juggling Association'" later in
the article, at the bottom of this page:
http://www.juggle.org/archives/jw/39-2/39-2,p6.htm
Apparently that particular debate has been going on for 59 years now....
Greg
[1] International Brotherhood of Magicians, not that big computer company.
It's Him
> Championships:
>
> Individuals
> 1st: Ryo Yabe, Japan
> 2nd: Mark Kolbusz, USA
> 3rd: Cecile Poncet, France/Canada
>
> Teams
> 1st: Jonglissimo (Christoph Mitasch & Manuel Mitasch), Gallneukirchen,
> Austria
> 2nd: Kikyo Brothers (Atsushi Kikyo & Takashi Kikyo), Yokohama, Japan
> 3rd: Entropy (Tony Gonzalez & Will Oltman), Barbuda
>
> Juniors
> 1st: Kazuhiro Shindo, Tokyo, Japan, age 17
> 2nd: Komei Aoki, Tokyo, Japan, age 16
> 3rd: Takashi Kikyo, Yokohama, Japan, age 14
>
> Looks pretty international to me.
>
> Greg
>
that the proportion of non-US citizens who enter the championships is much
much higher than the proportion of US citizens. Non-US will enter because
they think they have a chance of winning a medal and this looks good on a
professional CV. It is worth making a trip to the US for that alone if you
intend to work the cabaret circuit. This doesn't really make the IJA
international.
As a counter-example how many non-US juggling clubs are IJA affiliates?
Compare this with the number of juggling clubs in the world. The IJA has a
problem with its lack of growth inside and outside the US. This is because
many jugglers fail to see the relevance to them of a truly international
association. They are correct in that at the moment the relevance is small
if not to say negligible. I only joined because I wanted a copy of JUGGLE
every couple of months. This is not to say that the IJA should be irrelevant
or that it can not be changed to have a more widespread relevance. The
stated aim of the IJA is to promote juggling and it is failing to do this by
being too limited in both the way it targets people and what it does for the
larger juggling community. I imagine (as I don't have any facts - but that
doesn't stop me arging from ignorance) that rec.juggling gets much greater
input from the worldwide juggling community than the IJA forums. The IJA
could tap into this community but doesn't and would probably do so in a way
that alienates people if it were to try to do so. Personally I would, if I
ran the IJA website, have a portal to rec.juggling like www.jugglingdb.com
does. I would ditch the forums with the membership requirements. What does
it do apart from alienate people? Answering myself I'll say that it makes
the good workers of the IJA insular as they are not open to fresh ideas,
people have to join their club before they will listen. Yes, if you were to
more open you would get the occasional troll or argumentative 12 year old
but serious discussion gets rid of these people anyway. Look at how many
instant jugglers have responded to my original post.
You say that the IJA is truly International, 95% of the planets population
lives outside of the US but only 15% of IJA members come from outside the
US. The statistics argue against you.
Nigel
In favour of a truly international juggling association
Little Paul
> Paul: What you said nailed it, except for a trivial, unimportant
> historical point:
I was never any good at History.
> Little Paul wrote:
>> Hell, if the IBM can do it (The original parent organisation of the IJA
>> if I remember correctly) why can't the IJA?
>
> The founding members of the IJA got together at an IBM [1] convention to
> plot the IJA's formation, but the IJA was deliberately independent of the
> IBM from first founding. See this article from the fortieth anniversary
> edition of Jugglers' World (1987) for all the details:
Ahh. That sounds more like it. I knew there was an IBM connection but
was in a lazy-usenet mood and didn't fancy googling to check my facts.
> By the way, you'll also find the answer to the perennial question "Why
> isn't the IJA just called the 'American Juggling Association'" later in
> the article, at the bottom of this page:
>
> http://www.juggle.org/archives/jw/39-2/39-2,p6.htm
>
> Apparently that particular debate has been going on for 59 years now....
Heh! Why stop just when we're enjoying it?
> [1] International Brotherhood of Magicians, not that big computer company.
The structure of the IBM seems to be quite interesting, and possibly a
model that has potential for helping increase global membership.
As I understand it, there are local "chapters" (the equivalent of
juggling clubs I guess) which are grouped into regional "rings". When
taken together, these rings form the IBM as a whole.
Any given chapter can (and is likely to) hold events/conventions. The
regional rings tend to hold annual conventions as well. Im not sure if
the IBM holds one big conference a year - It might not even need to.
It's the local chapters, and regional rings that drive recruitment of
members, strike deals with insurers etc.
What if we had a "IJA-UK" ring which organised itself but was heavily
affiliated (and integrated) into the IJA as a whole. We could rebrand
the existing North American IJA as "IJA-USA" we could also have
IJA-France, IJA-Australia etc.
Each ring would run its own events and help out in ways that are useful
to its own local members - but would still fall under the umbrella
heading of "the IJA"
I think this way, the IJA makes itself more directly accessible to the
people on the ground (that live outside the US) it's more *relevant* to
the locals (because it's run *by* locals) and I believe a devolved
structure is more likely to be flexible and extensible than the current
monolithic structure.
Just a thought...
-Paul
max
> What if we had a "IJA-UK" ring which organised itself but was heavily
> affiliated (and integrated) into the IJA as a whole. We could rebrand
> the existing North American IJA as "IJA-USA" we could also have
> IJA-France, IJA-Australia etc.
>
> Each ring would run its own events and help out in ways that are useful
> to its own local members - but would still fall under the umbrella
> heading of "the IJA"
>
> I think this way, the IJA makes itself more directly accessible to the
> people on the ground (that live outside the US) it's more *relevant* to
> the locals (because it's run *by* locals) and I believe a devolved
> structure is more likely to be flexible and extensible than the current
> monolithic structure.
>
Greg Phillips
> What does it take to change the structure of the IJA?
Someone has to come up with a concrete proposal and present it to the
Board. Depending on the nature of the change, it might require amending
the Bylaws, or it might not. If it required a bylaw amendment, you'd need
a 2/3 "super-majority" of the Board to vote in favour (5 of 7) to get it
passed. If not, you'd need a simple majority (4 of 7).
A reasonable process would be to come up with a pretty thorough proposal
and post it to the IJA business discussion forum (anyone can post). Once
it's been whacked at and polished up, it could formally presented for vote.
Look, none of this is difficult, and all the relevant information is on
the IJA web site --- just look around (the "business" page at
http://www.juggle.org/business/index.php is a good place to start.)
Greg
Mike Armstrong
news:QLmdnWx6g9CuAirZ...@scarlet.biz...
> What support would I get from IJA to organize a convention?
>
> In say Swansea.
A couple of years ago Lorri and I started to put together a convention in
Tunisia, we discussed it with two of the board members, produced a budget
and wrote a proposal to the IJA board asking for their support underwriting
us against any losses. They liked the idea, and were happy to help out, but
then real life took over; we both got new, more demanding, jobs and ran out
of the necessary free time so the whole project evaporated.
Talk to them, especially if you have an interesting idea which has benefits
to both you and them - they'll probably take you up on it.
Cheers
-Mike
Greg Phillips
> Personally I would, if I
> ran the IJA website, have a portal to rec.juggling like www.jugglingdb.com
> does.
And the point would be? There's already perfectly good access through the
jugglingdb, or Google, or newsreader-of-your-choice.
> I would ditch the forums with the membership requirements. What does
> it do apart from alienate people?
The only forum that I'm aware of that requires membership is the Roster
forum --- which isn't really a forum, just a place to download the Roster.
If you want to post something on an IJA forum, go right ahead. I'd suggest
this one:
http://www.juggle.org/forum/list.php?6
> You say that the IJA is truly International, 95% of the planets population
> lives outside of the US but only 15% of IJA members come from outside the
> US. The statistics argue against you.
"Truly international" is one of those great phrases that means whatever
you want it to mean. Yes, the IJA's membership and activities are centered
on North America --- I don't think anyone has ever claimed otherwise.
But what the IJA chooses to do is completely determined by its membership
and its leadership. If you'd like to see it doing something different,
griping about it here is unlikely to change anything. Coming up with a new
approach and a sustainable implementation plan might.
Chiok
> What if we had a "IJA-UK" ring which organised itself but was heavily
> affiliated (and integrated) into the IJA as a whole. We could rebrand
> the existing North American IJA as "IJA-USA" we could also have
> IJA-France, IJA-Australia etc.
>
> Each ring would run its own events and help out in ways that are useful
> to its own local members - but would still fall under the umbrella
> heading of "the IJA"
>
> I think this way, the IJA makes itself more directly accessible to the
> people on the ground (that live outside the US) it's more *relevant* to
> the locals (because it's run *by* locals) and I believe a devolved
> structure is more likely to be flexible and extensible than the current
> monolithic structure.
>
> Just a thought...
>
> -Paul
That sounds like a solid idea. As long as IJA board didn't restrict what
the ring could do (I can't think of anything at the moment, but somehow I
feel there might be something) then that's great. Being solidified is
always good, it's that being part of something bigger isn't it.
Shall we work on the Avon ring then ;-)
Chiok
www.gravityvomit.co.uk
(I've got loads of free time now)
It's Him
> jugglingdb, or Google, or newsreader-of-your-choice.
>
The point would be that the IJA would be more connected with the
international juggling community rather than being isolated. Should it not
be worrying that a country like the UK (population 60 million) can get
almost as many (and in previous years more) people to attend its major
convention than the US (population at least 300 million).
>> I would ditch the forums with the membership requirements. What does
>> it do apart from alienate people?
>
> The only forum that I'm aware of that requires membership is the Roster
> forum --- which isn't really a forum, just a place to download the Roster.
> If you want to post something on an IJA forum, go right ahead. I'd suggest
> this one:
> http://www.juggle.org/forum/list.php?6
You can't post unless you are a member. You are required to login. Why? You
can't get any input from non-members because of this.
>
>> You say that the IJA is truly International, 95% of the planets
>> population
>> lives outside of the US but only 15% of IJA members come from outside the
>> US. The statistics argue against you.
>
> "Truly international" is one of those great phrases that means whatever
> you want it to mean. Yes, the IJA's membership and activities are centered
> on North America --- I don't think anyone has ever claimed otherwise.
>
> But what the IJA chooses to do is completely determined by its membership
> and its leadership. If you'd like to see it doing something different,
> griping about it here is unlikely to change anything. Coming up with a new
> approach and a sustainable implementation plan might.
>
> Greg
I am trying to determine the desire of the rec.juggling membership to join
the IJA by asking a fairly simple series of questions and gauging the
response. I have also stated my personal opinions on where I think the IJA
should be going if it wants to attract more people. Which according to the
business forum it wants to do. You may call this griping but I've been
offering fairly constructive criticism. Saying that the IJA is wonderful and
that it doesn't need to change anything would be burying my head in the
sand.
As far as I can see, as a non-US IJA member the only benefit to me is the
magazine (which is why I am a member) I have no intention of attending the
IJA convention and I don't care who the members are per se. However that
shouldn't be all that the IJA can offer and any 'gripes' I have made have
been to enhance the benefits of the IJA to me and to the many other jugglers
around the world.
Nigel
HamillTom
Here goes with some answers.
>
> 1) Are you a member of the IJA?
Yes
> 2) Do you think their magazine is to UScentric?
I author the InPassing column for Juggle magazine, and I hope that at
least that portion has some international appeal. I don't have in depth
knowledge of the process of how topics are selected for the mag, but from
what I gather, there is a small cadre of volunteer writers providing most,
if not all, of the material. Most of these people are Americans, so
undoubtedly, there will be a more UScentric slant to the material and
topics. It seens to me that if 3 or 4 people in Europe and Asia took up
the pen to write about juggling topics, those articles would likely get
published. I for one think that would make Juggle magazine even more
interesting to read.
> 3) Would you care if Juggle (or equivalent) ceased to exist?
As I use Juggle as a means to give back to the juggling community, I would
not like to see it disappear.
> 4) Would you want to be a member of the IJA if it was truly International?
(N/A)
> 5) Do you think your juggling club should be affiliated to the IJA if that
> was made an easier and more sensible process? (By which I mean, pay some
> money to join and you get a whole load of workshop ideas, including teaching
> strategies and games, as well as the magazine - and not having to prove
> anything about your club other than that it contains at least one IJA
> member).
As I understand it, the main benefit to being an IJA affiliate is that you
can share the IRS non-profit exempt status the IJA maintains. If I
remember correctly, the only organizations that have to file with the IRS
are those with revenues over $25,000. A typical juggling club in the US
which rents its space and holds a weekend juggling convention once a year
should have revenues which are much less than that. That seems like a
prtty UScentric program! So the IJA might want to look at the IJA
Affliliates program as to benefits to members (particularly those that do
not fall under US Tax laws) and how they can be used in the hierarchy of
the organization.
> 6) What amount of money are you prepared to pay a year to be a member of the
> IJA (and receive 6 magazines)?
$50 /year seems reasonable
> 7) Do you have any other thoughts that you think are relevant to IJA board
> members.(I'm not one)?
I think I've commented enough.
>
> Nigel
HamillTom
> I also think they should try to have local clubs collaborate for
> events. In my area (Washington, D.C.), we have about 3 or 4 clubs which
> meet pretty regularly. If all of the clubs got together and hosted an
> event, or even if they had nights where people from two of the clubs would
> all meet, the diffusion of ideas would be great. I think if all clubs were
> IJA-affiliated and were strongly emphasized by the IJA to collaborate on
> events and ideas, then the clubs would be more willing to follow, at least
> in my area. Maybe have contests to win props or a contest for a club to
> win the money to run a festival if it works together with other clubs in
> the area?
As I understand the Affiliates charter, this is one of the things that
affiliate clubs are supposed to do. You do not need the IJA board
approval to hold calaborative meetings, joint workshops and/or get other
public involvement. I think this is a great idea as it bridges a wide gap
betweeen conventions and club meetings. I does require the local juggling
community to pull it together as that business is not really the pervue of
the IJA. The IJA could be a resource for ideas and material though.
Tom Hamill
Little Paul
>
> Shall we work on the Avon ring then ;-)
Pah! I spit on your "Avon" - it was abolished a number of years back,
and it was always a non-county anyway.
I'd possibly be up for a CUBA ring though. [1]
-Paul
Counties that Used to Be Avon.
Jason Perry
news:44b7be3e$0$4381$da0f...@news.zen.co.uk...
> On 2006-07-14, Greg Phillips <greg.p...@juggler.net.nospam.com> wrote:
>>
>> [1] International Brotherhood of Magicians, not that big computer
>> company.
>
> The structure of the IBM seems to be quite interesting, and possibly a
> model that has potential for helping increase global membership.
>
> As I understand it, there are local "chapters" (the equivalent of
> juggling clubs I guess) which are grouped into regional "rings". When
> taken together, these rings form the IBM as a whole.
So you're saying that if the IJA had local clubs and regional rings then we
would all have a ball? Sounds good to me.
Jason.
--
Sorry, I blame the heat. My 'office' is so hot, my 'puter keeps switching
itself off.
Chiok
Yeah, used to be like, 15 didn't there? There's like, 50 now, you know
what that means, more Parliamentary districts.[1] I still like Avon, what
do you put underneath "Bristol" or "Bath" on an envelope before the
postcode?
Chiok
www.gravityvomit.co.uk
[1] - I know very little of British Geography or politics...
Little Paul
> Yeah, used to be like, 15 didn't there? There's like, 50 now, you know
> what that means, more Parliamentary districts.[1]
From what I can tell, it doesn't. There are the same number of wards as
there were. They're just split between a number of smaller
county-councils rather than one big Avon county council. Theoretically
this is a Good Thing as smaller county councils are better placed to
respond to local needs. In reality, I don't think it makes much
diference.
> I still like Avon, what
> do you put underneath "Bristol" or "Bath" on an envelope before the
> postcode?
"Bristol" should go underneath Bristol as it is both the city and the
county.[1]
"BANES" (or alternatively "Bath and North East Sommerset" should go
underneath Bath.
-Paul
[1] This is mostly true, although some BS post codes lie outside the
county boundary and could be considered BANES, South Gloucester etc
Orinoco
Nope
> 2) Do you think their magazine is to UScentric?
Nope, see 7
> 3) Would you care if Juggle (or equivalent) ceased to exist?
Yep
> 4) Would you want to be a member of the IJA if it was truly International?
> 5) Do you think your juggling club should be affiliated to the IJA if that
> was made an easier and more sensible process? (By which I mean, pay some
> money to join and you get a whole load of workshop ideas, including teaching
> strategies and games, as well as the magazine - and not having to prove
> anything about your club other than that it contains at least one IJA
> member).
> 6) What amount of money are you prepared to pay a year to be a member of the
> IJA (and receive 6 magazines)?
see 7
> 7) Do you have any other thoughts that you think are relevant to IJA board
> members.(I'm not one)?
I think the IJA should become *more* US centric. If you want a strong
committed base you need to consolidate rather than diversify. How do all
the US IJA members feel about paying the extra postage to ship their
magazine around the world? (I believe the cost is the same regardless of
which country you are in). The wider you try to spread your reach the less
cost effective you become. The vast majority of IJA funds come from North
Americans, so that same proportion of money should be spent on North
Americans.
I would like to see the IJA to negotiate cheap group flights or maybe even
charter a plane to ship IJA members to the EJC & other big national
festivals. This obviously benefits the US IJA members in that they get a
cheaper & easier way to get to some great festivals (& very different
festivals, reading about it in a magazine is a poor substitute to actually
being there). Jugglers world wide benefit from higher attendance/profits
at festivals & by being able to meet jugglers from across the globe who
might not normally be able to get to a non-US festival on their own.
Basically, I want Matt Hall to go to *every* festival.
The EJA could do the same for the return trip.
Jon
fakoriginal
Nope
> 2) Do you think their magazine is to UScentric?
I've never knowingly read it, so can't comment.
> 3) Would you care if Juggle (or equivalent) ceased to exist?
Well, I've never read Juggle, so obviously am not that fussed about its
existence. I do, however, like the principle of juggling magazines.
> 4) Would you want to be a member of the IJA if it was truly International?
Whether it is or it not 'truly international' isn't stopping me being a
member now. It hasn't even occured to me to join the IJA.
> 5) Do you think your juggling club should be affiliated to the IJA if that
> was made an easier and more sensible process? (By which I mean, pay some
> money to join and you get a whole load of workshop ideas, including teaching
> strategies and games, as well as the magazine - and not having to prove
> anything about your club other than that it contains at least one IJA
> member).
If the IJA was an organisation that could help out my juggling club and it
would benefit from membership in some way, then I would consider it. Maybe.
> 6) What amount of money are you prepared to pay a year to be a member of the
> IJA (and receive 6 magazines)?
Give me a list of benefits, and I will give you what I am prepared to pay
for them. If it's just a magazine then I'd not want to spend more than $35
a year.
> 7) Do you have any other thoughts that you think are relevant to IJA board
> members.(I'm not one)?
Yes, what can the IJA do for me - a hobby juggler in the UK?
fak
fakoriginal
[snip]
> I would like to see the IJA to negotiate cheap group flights or maybe even
> charter a plane to ship IJA members to the EJC & other big national
> festivals. This obviously benefits the US IJA members in that they get a
> cheaper & easier way to get to some great festivals (& very different
> festivals, reading about it in a magazine is a poor substitute to actually
> being there). Jugglers world wide benefit from higher attendance/profits
> at festivals & by being able to meet jugglers from across the globe who
> might not normally be able to get to a non-US festival on their own.
> Basically, I want Matt Hall to go to *every* festival.
>
> The EJA could do the same for the return trip.
>
> Jon
>
> --
> ----== posted via www.jugglingdb.com ==----
Interesting idea. I wonder how it would work in practice. Who would the
IJA/EJA choose to benefit from travel subsidies? Would fellow members be
happy about sending other people overseas on their money? This would
probably come down to how much money was involved. Maybe IJA prizes could
include travel to a non-US convention on the agreement that the individual
would write it up for the magazine.
fak - thinking out loud (but at least I'm thinking!)
Matt Hall
Orinoco wrote:
>
> I would like to see the IJA to negotiate cheap group flights or maybe even
> charter a plane to ship IJA members to the EJC & other big national
> festivals. This obviously benefits the US IJA members in that they get a
> cheaper & easier way to get to some great festivals (& very different
> festivals, reading about it in a magazine is a poor substitute to actually
> being there). Jugglers world wide benefit from higher attendance/profits
> at festivals & by being able to meet jugglers from across the globe who
> might not normally be able to get to a non-US festival on their own.
> Basically, I want Matt Hall to go to *every* festival.
I couldn't agree with you more!!! I want to go to EVERY festival.
Don't we all? =)
Seriously though, I think it's a fabulous idea. I know I have
benefitted from my overseas festival experience tremendously. Tricks
learned, perspectives altered, and of course, friends made. I think we
have a lot to learn from each other. It's actually funny that this
comment comes up now, because just yesterday I was hanging out with
Marco P., Niels D. Ryo Y., Dale and Danni O. and the whole bloody
Taiwanese diabolo team. That's five great jugglers from five great
countries that I met for the first time (or reconnected with ) right
here in Portland at the IJA festival. We may not be THE international
fest or organization, but the trend towards true internationalization
has really begun to accelerate in the last few years. I'm really
grateful for it, as I saw in Svendborg in 2003 what that really can be,
and it is a beautiful thing. Oh yeah, I also got a tentative, soft
invite to go to Taiwan, so that goal about EVERY festival is still
alive. YEAH BABY!!!!
loving life in Portland,
Matt "getting schooled by the Japanese and Taiwanese and loving it" Hall
Brian Campbell
> 1) Are you a member of the IJA?
Nope.
> 2) Do you think their magazine is to UScentric?
I've never read it, but from what I've seen of what sorts of things are
in it, I don't think so.
> 3) Would you care if Juggle (or equivalent) ceased to exist?
Yes. I was just recently considering joining the IJA, pretty much only
for the magazine. The only reason I didn't was that their online form
only takes PayPal, and I never got off my ass to find out if I can do
it by mail instead.
> 4) Would you want to be a member of the IJA if it was truly International?
As I said, I would join it for the magazine alone, so whether it's
international wouldn't really make a big difference, although it would
be nicer if it were more international.
> 5) Do you think your juggling club should be affiliated to the IJA if that
> was made an easier and more sensible process? (By which I mean, pay some
> money to join and you get a whole load of workshop ideas, including teaching
> strategies and games, as well as the magazine - and not having to prove
> anything about your club other than that it contains at least one IJA
> member).
Hmm. I think the IJA would have to provide me with more than just some
ideas. Perhaps if they maintained a directory of affiliated juggling
clubs and their meeting times, advertised events that were put on by
affiliated clubs and whatnot, or provided other services it might be
worth it.
> 6) What amount of money are you prepared to pay a year to be a member of the
> IJA (and receive 6 magazines)?
Well, since the only real benefit I would get right now is the
magazine, I'd say only about $35. If there were more benefits I could
get (discounts at lots of retailers, discounts at conventions,
something I needed to do before I could attend certain events, or
something), then I might be willing to pay more.
> 7) Do you have any other thoughts that you think are relevant to IJA board
> members.(I'm not one)?
Actually have the IJA provide something of values to its members.
Insurance for large events. A system of awards at all levels, including
local conventions. Awards for more than just juggling skill; maybe
awards for people who organize conventions, teach juggling, invent cool
new tricks, document the juggling community, etc. Help out with prize
support, or vending, for small, local conventions. Maybe hire
instructors to tour the country, helping out at local juggling clubs
and conventions. Keep membership lists & records for local juggling
clubs, so they can find members of the IJA in the area to announce
their events to. Provide advertising of official, IJA affiliated events
in a newsletter or on their website. Help find and fund guests of honor
to come to IJA affiliated events. There are a lot of things that the
IJA could do, but it doesn't seem to do many of them. I think it would
work well as an umbrella organization that helped out with local clubs
& events, regional events, and stuff like that, while letting the local
clubs have control.
I have become involved recently in the SCA (society for creative
anachronism), that operates this way, and it seems to work fairly well;
the SCA is large, growing steadily, and has many popular events that
draw up to 12,000 people. It doesn't do much on it's own, other than
provide a legal corporation the other groups can be part of, set some
fundamental rules so they can work together, and provide a few
publications and a magazine to tie them together and help promote
events. Most of the real business is handled on a regional (aka
Kingdom) level, and on smaller levels (state, metropolitan region,
colleges, etc). They give out lots of awards (known as titles), both
for skill in a variety of areas, and for service, which involve helping
run events, run various groups, practices, and so on. Although there
are lots of people who don't care about the awards, they are enough of
an incentive to help increase participation, and give people a real
sense that they've done something.