[METW] pre-tourney questions
BSatterley
Some questions, my friends:
1. Does Bane of the Ithil Stone prevent Saruman from using his ability to
retrieve spells from the discard pile...my guess is yes. But becasue it
is neither a resource or hazard effec,t some have argued that it is indeed
"within the normal sequence of play".
2. If I have PAllando out, may I look through my opponent's entire
discard pile, or am I only privy to the top card? If I can look through
his entire discard pile, is that ability prevented by Bane of the Ithil
Stone?
3. Since MArvels Told cannot target a card that has not resolved...does
this mean that if my opponent plays Adunaphel as an event, I cannot
MArvels Told it until it is on the table?...in which case my opponent can
just tap it in response? (booo)
4. Does a company have to move MOVE through "Gundabad", for example, in
order for me to be able to key a cave worm...or is it suffcient that the
company merely resides in Gundabad? If the company doesn't use region
movement to get there, has it strictly gone through Gundabad ,since it has
not utilized region cards?
Brian
BSatt...@AOL.COM
Puff the Magic Dragon
BSatterley wrote:
>
> Some questions, my friends:
>
> 1. Does Bane of the Ithil Stone prevent Saruman from using his ability to
> retrieve spells from the discard pile...my guess is yes. But becasue it
> is neither a resource or hazard effec,t some have argued that it is indeed
> "within the normal sequence of play".
It isn't within the normal sequence of play. If you use Saruman's
ability (or Wizard's Staff's) than you are manipulating your discard
pile which is outside the normal sequence of play. So Bane renders the
ability unusable.
>
> 2. If I have PAllando out, may I look through my opponent's entire
> discard pile, or am I only privy to the top card? If I can look through
> his entire discard pile, is that ability prevented by Bane of the Ithil
> Stone?
I'm almost certain that Pallando's ability allows you to look at each
card as your opponent discards them, but you can't search through his
pile. The ability is useful for players with a high memory retention
rate or those who are looking for key cards. The second question was
answered in the response to the first, Bane doesn't cancel anything,
since you can't do it in the first place.
>
> 3. Since MArvels Told cannot target a card that has not resolved...does
> this mean that if my opponent plays Adunaphel as an event, I cannot
> MArvels Told it until it is on the table?...in which case my opponent can
> just tap it in response? (booo)
I thought that Marvels Told (like Twilight) altered the chain of
effects, so that Marvels would resolve and destroy Adunaphael before he
could be tapped. If I'm wrong on this, then it should still be possible
to take the action of nullifying it before the other player taps. If
I'm wrong, please tell me so.
>
> 4. Does a company have to move MOVE through "Gundabad", for example, in
> order for me to be able to key a cave worm...or is it suffcient that the
> company merely resides in Gundabad? If the company doesn't use region
> movement to get there, has it strictly gone through Gundabad ,since it has
> not utilized region cards?
Even if you don't use region cards (or a map), you can still key
creatures to the regions of the starting and ending sites. Thus, if you
moved from Rivendell to Moria using starter movement, the company is
still considered to have travelled through Rhudaur and Redhorn Gate.
>
> Brian
> BSatt...@AOL.COM
Hope this helps,
Puff the Magic Dragon
PT...@Prodigy.net
Ichabod
In article <19970304142...@ladder02.news.aol.com>,
bsatt...@aol.com (BSatterley) wrote:
>Some questions, my friends:
>
>1. Does Bane of the Ithil Stone prevent Saruman from using his ability to
>retrieve spells from the discard pile...my guess is yes. But becasue it
>is neither a resource or hazard effec,t some have argued that it is indeed
>"within the normal sequence of play".
Bane of the Ithil-stone will stop Saruman's ability. "Within the normal
sequence of play" is meant to cover things specified in the rules, like
drawing and discarding during movement or sideboarding by tapping a wizard.
>2. If I have PAllando out, may I look through my opponent's entire
>discard pile, or am I only privy to the top card? If I can look through
>his entire discard pile, is that ability prevented by Bane of the Ithil
>Stone?
You may look at any face up cards in his discard pile. Consider this
within the normal sequence of play.
>3. Since MArvels Told cannot target a card that has not resolved...does
>this mean that if my opponent plays Adunaphel as an event, I cannot
>MArvels Told it until it is on the table?...in which case my opponent can
>just tap it in response? (booo)
You may not Marvel's Told Adunaphel until she is on the the table.
>4. Does a company have to move MOVE through "Gundabad", for example, in
>order for me to be able to key a cave worm...or is it suffcient that the
>company merely resides in Gundabad? If the company doesn't use region
>movement to get there, has it strictly gone through Gundabad ,since it has
>not utilized region cards?
A company must move through or to Gundabad to key a Cave Worm. If the
company does not move, you can only key to the site, and Cave Worm is
not keyable to sites in the listed regions. If the company doesn't use
region movement the site of origin or the new site must be in Gundabad,
the regions of those two sites are the only ones the company is considered
to have moved through.
------ "The Crossing-guard of Mordor" ------
Craig "Ichabod" O'Brien http://www.cstone.net/~ichabod
ich...@cstone.net Me:CCG Official Netrep
Founder "Team Ichabod" Undefeated on the Pro-Tour
-----Self Proclaimed Most Mediocre Player in the World-----
Geoffrey Scott Mercer
On 4 Mar 1997 16:16:57 GMT, bsatt...@aol.com (BSatterley) wrote:
>Some questions, my friends:
>
>1. Does Bane of the Ithil Stone prevent Saruman from using his ability to
>retrieve spells from the discard pile...my guess is yes. But becasue it
>is neither a resource or hazard effec,t some have argued that it is indeed
>"within the normal sequence of play".
Yes.
>2. If I have PAllando out, may I look through my opponent's entire
>discard pile, or am I only privy to the top card? If I can look through
>his entire discard pile, is that ability prevented by Bane of the Ithil
>Stone?
You may ask to see them as they go to the discard pile, and you may
look at the top card, but other than that you just have to remember.
>3. Since MArvels Told cannot target a card that has not resolved...does
>this mean that if my opponent plays Adunaphel as an event, I cannot
>MArvels Told it until it is on the table?...in which case my opponent can
>just tap it in response? (booo)
You're half right. Marvels Told can only target events that are
already "on the table." It can prevent Adunaphel's effect from
happening, however. When the Hazard player taps Adunaphel, it starts a
chain of effects. You can respond with a Marvels Told targeting
Adunaphel. Since METW is a LIFO stack of effects game, the Marvels
Told resolves first. Since by the time Adunaphel would resolve, its no
longer on the board, the effect fizzles.
>4. Does a company have to move MOVE through "Gundabad", for example, in
>order for me to be able to key a cave worm...or is it suffcient that the
>company merely resides in Gundabad? If the company doesn't use region
>movement to get there, has it strictly gone through Gundabad ,since it has
>not utilized region cards?
If using region movement, a company that moves through, from, or into
Gundabad could be attacked by Cave Worm (one of my favorite hazards,
btw).
If using starter movement, a company that begins the M/H phase in
Gundabad or moves to a site in Gundabad can be hit by the Cave Worm.
If they are not moving at all (they're just sitting at Mount Gundabad)
or using Under-deep movement to/from Gundabad you can't key the Cave
Worm.
gsm
>Brian
>BSatt...@AOL.COM
Trevor Isildur Stone
In article <331C93...@prodigy.net>,
Puff the Magic Dragon <PT...@prodigy.net> wrote:
>> 1. Does Bane of the Ithil Stone prevent Saruman from using his ability to
>> retrieve spells from the discard pile...my guess is yes. But becasue it
>> is neither a resource or hazard effec,t some have argued that it is indeed
>> "within the normal sequence of play".
>
>ability (or Wizard's Staff's) than you are manipulating your discard
>pile which is outside the normal sequence of play. So Bane renders the
>ability unusable.
>
card. Saruman w/ Palantir of Osgiliath once got rid of it, though he had a +4
modifier to his corruption check.
>I'm almost certain that Pallando's ability allows you to look at each
>card as your opponent discards them, but you can't search through his
>pile. The ability is useful for players with a high memory retention
>rate or those who are looking for key cards. The second question was
>answered in the response to the first, Bane doesn't cancel anything,
>since you can't do it in the first place.
>
This is true.
>>
>> 3. Since MArvels Told cannot target a card that has not resolved...does
>> this mean that if my opponent plays Adunaphel as an event, I cannot
>> MArvels Told it until it is on the table?...in which case my opponent can
>> just tap it in response? (booo)
>
>I thought that Marvels Told (like Twilight) altered the chain of
>effects, so that Marvels would resolve and destroy Adunaphael before he
>could be tapped. If I'm wrong on this, then it should still be possible
>to take the action of nullifying it before the other player taps. If
>I'm wrong, please tell me so.
>
I seem to recall Ichabod saying you can't use Marvels Told to cancel a Perm-
event as it comes into play, but you should check the CRF. This goes back to
the Daelomin at Home debate. If you Marvels Told him, he can be discarded to
use his effect. If he's discarded and you Marvels Told in response, the card
is discarded, but it was already discarded...
So, in short, I believe you can't Marvels Told Adunaphel as she comes into
play and she can be tapped in response to Marvels Told (the second part I'm
POSITIVE on).
>>
>> 4. Does a company have to move MOVE through "Gundabad", for example, in
>> order for me to be able to key a cave worm...or is it suffcient that the
>> company merely resides in Gundabad? If the company doesn't use region
>> movement to get there, has it strictly gone through Gundabad ,since it has
>> not utilized region cards?
>
>Even if you don't use region cards (or a map), you can still key
>creatures to the regions of the starting and ending sites. Thus, if you
>moved from Rivendell to Moria using starter movement, the company is
>still considered to have travelled through Rhudaur and Redhorn Gate.
>
THis is true, but you can't get from Rivendell to Moria using starter movement
;-)
### Trevor "Isildur" Stone Scout/Sage Man tst...@Colorado.EDU [O]
### http://ucsub.Colorado.EDU/~tstone/metw/cotd/ METW Card of the Day [O]
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Puff the Magic Dragon
Trevor Isildur Stone wrote:
> I seem to recall Ichabod saying you can't use Marvels Told to cancel a Perm-
> event as it comes into play, but you should check the CRF. This goes back to
> the Daelomin at Home debate. If you Marvels Told him, he can be discarded to
> use his effect. If he's discarded and you Marvels Told in response, the card
> is discarded, but it was already discarded...
> So, in short, I believe you can't Marvels Told Adunaphel as she comes into
> play and she can be tapped in response to Marvels Told (the second part I'm
> POSITIVE on).
You're right about the on the table part and the part about him tapping
in response. However, if Adunaphael taps, you should be able to Marvels
Told in response, resulting in (due to LIFO timing) the destruction of
Adunaphael before he could tap.
> THis is true, but you can't get from Rivendell to Moria using starter movement
Woops, they were just some of the first sites that popped in my head.
> ;-)
>
> ### Trevor "Isildur" Stone Scout/Sage Man tst...@Colorado.EDU [O]
> ### http://ucsub.Colorado.EDU/~tstone/metw/cotd/ METW Card of the Day [O]
> ### http://bvsd.k12.co.us/~tstone/ Curses, contests, games, etc. [O]
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Puff the Magic Dragon
PT...@Prodigy.net
Aelfwine
Trevor "Isildur" Stone (tst...@ucsub.Colorado.EDU) wrote:
: >>
: >> 3. Since MArvels Told cannot target a card that has not resolved...does
: >> this mean that if my opponent plays Adunaphel as an event, I cannot
: >> MArvels Told it until it is on the table?...in which case my opponent can
: >> just tap it in response? (booo)
: >
: >I thought that Marvels Told (like Twilight) altered the chain of
: >effects, so that Marvels would resolve and destroy Adunaphael before he
: >could be tapped. If I'm wrong on this, then it should still be possible
: >to take the action of nullifying it before the other player taps. If
: >I'm wrong, please tell me so.
: I seem to recall Ichabod saying you can't use Marvels Told to cancel a Perm-
: event as it comes into play, but you should check the CRF. This goes back to
: the Daelomin at Home debate. If you Marvels Told him, he can be discarded to
: use his effect. If he's discarded and you Marvels Told in response, the card
: is discarded, but it was already discarded...
: So, in short, I believe you can't Marvels Told Adunaphel as she comes into
: play and she can be tapped in response to Marvels Told (the second part I'm
: POSITIVE on).
Okay, I missed the Daelomin at Home debate. Ichabod, can you clarify
this? The same sort of problem comes up with Praise to Elbereth and
Wizard's River Horses...if I recall, the CRF simply manhandles those cards
by saying "the Nazgul events are discarded without effect", or something
similar, but this doesn't explain the reasoning behind the rulings.
It may be tedious, but could you give the general rule for these sorts of
situations? I once thought I had it figured out, but, oh well...
Thanks,
--Anthony
aper...@indiana.edu
Geoffrey Scott Mercer
This was what I sent to Brian in e-mail when he asked me further about
it.
>>>>>
Allow me to quote the relevant sections of the collected rulings file:
Annotation 5: If an action requires an entitiy to tap as a condition
for the action's main effect, that entity must be untapped when the
action is declared; else, the action may not be declared. Tap the
entity at this point; this is considered synonymous with the action's
declarartion, i.e., it is not a seperate action. When it comes time to
resolve the action in its chain of effects, that entity must still be
in play and tapped or the action is cancelled.
Annotation 6: If an action requires an entity to be discarded as a
condition for the action's main effect, that entity must be discarded
when the action is declared; this is considered synonymous with the
action's declaration, i.e., it is not a seperate action.
Adunaphel falls into the Annotation 5 category, an entity that is
required to tap. The card reads "When _tapped_ (my emphasis),
Adunaphel becomes a short-event and causes any one character to tap."
Note that the resource player can respond to Adunaphel tapping with
Marvels Told, which will destroy Adunaphel before Adunaphel resolves.
If for some unfathomable reason a person tries to Marvels Told
Adunaphel in the Movement/Hazard phase, then the hazard player (if he
has limit left) can tap Adunaphel in response, and Adunaphel _will_
tap somebody because she (Adunaphel is female) resolves before the
Marvels Told.
Another key ruling is that short-events are _not_ discarded when
declared, but only when resolved. This allows them to be targeted by
Searching Eye, Many Sorrows Befall and maybe a couple others I don't
know about.
Daelomin at Home falls into the Annotation 6 category. She (Daelomin
is also female) reads "In addition, you may _discard_ (my emphasis)
this card from play during opponent's movement/hazard phase (not
counting against the hazard limit) to increase the hazard limit
against one company by two." Since she discards when declared, there
no longer is something for the Marvels Told to destroy.
The CRF is at the following web address, if you wish to look it over:
http://www.ironcrown.com/ICESite/metwfaq.html
Hope that clears it up.
>>>>>
Saruman the White
Geoffrey Scott Mercer wrote:
>
> On 6 Mar 1997 02:55:02 GMT, aper...@ucs.indiana.edu (Aelfwine) wrote:
>
> >Trevor "Isildur" Stone (tst...@ucsub.Colorado.EDU) wrote:
> >: >>
> >: >> 3. Since MArvels Told cannot target a card that has not resolved...does
> >: >> this mean that if my opponent plays Adunaphel as an event, I cannot
> >: >> MArvels Told it until it is on the table?...in which case my opponent can
> >: >> just tap it in response? (booo)
This is correct. You can't Marvels Told something that hasn't resolved,
and (in this case), Adunaphel becomes a short immediately upon being
tapped (it's effect of tapping a character waits until it's position in
the chain of effects to resolve). Marvels Told will whiff whether it's
played first or second on a Nazgul.
The above assumes that this is all is being conducted during the M/H
phase. If the Marvels Told is played outside of this phase, then all
the Hazard player can do is grin and like it...
<snip>
If you attempt to respond to the tapping of a Nazgul with Marvels Told,
you will whiff since the moment it is tapped, it becomes a short event
(it's effect waits until the appropriate point in the chain of effects)
and thus is an invalid target for Marvels Told.
>
> Another key ruling is that short-events are _not_ discarded when
> declared, but only when resolved. This allows them to be targeted by
> Searching Eye, Many Sorrows Befall and maybe a couple others I don't
> know about.
>
> Daelomin at Home falls into the Annotation 6 category. She (Daelomin
> is also female) reads "In addition, you may _discard_ (my emphasis)
> this card from play during opponent's movement/hazard phase (not
> counting against the hazard limit) to increase the hazard limit
> against one company by two." Since she discards when declared, there
> no longer is something for the Marvels Told to destroy.
>
> The CRF is at the following web address, if you wish to look it over:
>
> http://www.ironcrown.com/ICESite/metwfaq.html
>
> Hope that clears it up.
>
> >>>>>
Cliff
Trevor Isildur Stone
In article <33204F...@qmgate.anl.gov>,
Saruman the White <Cliff_...@qmgate.anl.gov> wrote:
>> >: >>
>> >: >> 3. Since MArvels Told cannot target a card that has not resolved...does
>> >: >> this mean that if my opponent plays Adunaphel as an event, I cannot
>> >: >> MArvels Told it until it is on the table?...in which case my opponent can
>> >: >> just tap it in response? (booo)
>
>This is correct. You can't Marvels Told something that hasn't resolved,
>and (in this case), Adunaphel becomes a short immediately upon being
>tapped (it's effect of tapping a character waits until it's position in
>the chain of effects to resolve). Marvels Told will whiff whether it's
>played first or second on a Nazgul.
>
memory rather than in front of me. Adunaphel taps. People have a chance to
respond. After responses and chains of effects, her action takes place. Part
of this action is to become a short event and then tap a character. Thus, she
remains a premanent-event until she resolves.
Sorry for the misunderstanding.
### Trevor "Isildur" Stone Scout/Sage Man tst...@Colorado.EDU [O]
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### Curse of the moment: Thou lewd lean-witted dogfish! ###
Geoffrey Scott Mercer
>Geoffrey Scott Mercer wrote:
>>
>> On 6 Mar 1997 02:55:02 GMT, aper...@ucs.indiana.edu (Aelfwine) wrote:
>>
>> >Trevor "Isildur" Stone (tst...@ucsub.Colorado.EDU) wrote:
>> >: >>
>> >: >> 3. Since MArvels Told cannot target a card that has not resolved...does
>> >: >> this mean that if my opponent plays Adunaphel as an event, I cannot
>> >: >> MArvels Told it until it is on the table?...in which case my opponent can
>> >: >> just tap it in response? (booo)
>
>This is correct. You can't Marvels Told something that hasn't resolved,
>and (in this case), Adunaphel becomes a short immediately upon being
>tapped (it's effect of tapping a character waits until it's position in
>the chain of effects to resolve). Marvels Told will whiff whether it's
>played first or second on a Nazgul.
>> Adunaphel falls into the Annotation 5 category, an entity that is
>> required to tap. The card reads "When _tapped_ (my emphasis),
>> Adunaphel becomes a short-event and causes any one character to tap."
>> Note that the resource player can respond to Adunaphel tapping with
>> Marvels Told, which will destroy Adunaphel before Adunaphel resolves.
>> If for some unfathomable reason a person tries to Marvels Told
>> Adunaphel in the Movement/Hazard phase, then the hazard player (if he
>> has limit left) can tap Adunaphel in response, and Adunaphel _will_
>> tap somebody because she (Adunaphel is female) resolves before the
>> Marvels Told.
>
>If you attempt to respond to the tapping of a Nazgul with Marvels Told,
>you will whiff since the moment it is tapped, it becomes a short event
>(it's effect waits until the appropriate point in the chain of effects)
>and thus is an invalid target for Marvels Told.
>Cliff
Cliff, I might disagree with you here. There's the question of does
Adunaphel become the short-event _immediately_ or when the tapping of
Adunaphel resolves. I believe Adunaphel becoming a short-event is part
of the effect of her tapping, not an immediate side-effect (as it
were), with the tapping then coming when the new short-event resolves.
I understand your point about how Marvels Told can't target a
short-event, however, which is why you're thinking that a Marvel's
Told in response doesn't work. I just don't agree.
I could be wrong, however.
Craig?
gsm
Ichabod
I've been keeping quiet so far because I wanted to check with Mike Reynolds
to make sure I was right about all this. I will try to respond to all
the many questions in the thread so far.
1. The Marvels Told thing: You cannot Marvels Told a card played from
someone's hand until it resolves. It is not in play until then, and not a
valid target because it is not in play [Annotation 1].
2. The Nazgul Thing: A Nazgul becoming a short event happen simultaneously
with tapping the card, and therefore simultaneously with declaring the
tapping for effect. So you cannot respond to a Nazgul tapping with Marvels
Told, since it is no longer a permanent-event. The quick among you have
noticed the exception: The Witch-king becomes a long-event, and so is
still a valid target for Marvels Told.
3. The Daelomin Thing: You cannot respond to the discarding of Daelomin
At Home from play (to increase the hazard limit) with Marvels Told. This
is because any discard that is an active condition happens at declaration
[Annotation 6]. Since it is not in play it cannot be a target anymore.
This is implied but not explicitly stated by Annotation 1.
4. The Praise to Elbereth Thing: The reason the CRF says the Nazgul
are discarded with no effect is to allow you to discard Nazgul in
play without them responding to you. This allows it to be used
effectively in the movement/hazard phase, and is mainly a clarification
of cancelling the event.
I hope I got everything, but I left something out I'm sure y'all'll
let me know.
Geoffrey Scott Mercer
On Sun, 09 Mar 1997 23:47:18 -0500, ich...@cstone.net (Ichabod)
wrote:
>I've been keeping quiet so far because I wanted to check with Mike Reynolds
>to make sure I was right about all this. I will try to respond to all
>the many questions in the thread so far.
>
>2. The Nazgul Thing: A Nazgul becoming a short event happen simultaneously
>with tapping the card, and therefore simultaneously with declaring the
>tapping for effect. So you cannot respond to a Nazgul tapping with Marvels
>Told, since it is no longer a permanent-event. The quick among you have
>noticed the exception: The Witch-king becomes a long-event, and so is
>still a valid target for Marvels Told.
Very well. I actually noticed last night the Nazgul short event upon
declaration bit last night in the new CRF under "Nazgul". That was the
only thing I was unclear on, and it turns out the answer was there all
along.
>I hope I got everything, but I left something out I'm sure y'all'll
>let me know.
I'm completely clear on these, Thanks Craig.
gsm