TOM: Mangara's Tome Q
Gandalf
If you have Mangara's Tome and Sylvan Library in play, can you pay 6
mana to take the top three cards from under the tome, keep one, and then
place the other two on top of your library?
--
Rick Silance
mithr...@coastalnet.com
There are many powers in the world, for good or
for evil. Some are greater than I am. Against
some I have not yet been measured. But my time
is coming.
Gandalf - The Fellowship Of The Ring
Kyle Nishioka
Gandalf (mithr...@abaco.coastalnet.com) wrote:
: If you have Mangara's Tome and Sylvan Library in play, can you pay 6
: place the other two on top of your library?
Yes. The Tome's effect will replace the draw from the Sylvan Library.
If you do not pay life to keep the cards, they will go to your library.
--
Kyle
nk...@hawaii.edu
#include <std_disclaimer.h>
#include <blue_ribbon>
Mike Stern
Gandalf (mithr...@abaco.coastalnet.com) wrote:
: If you have Mangara's Tome and Sylvan Library in play, can you pay 6
: mana to take the top three cards from under the tome, keep one, and then
: place the other two on top of your library?
Artif Mangara's Tome mR 5
Artifact
When Mangara's Tome comes into play, search your library and choose any
five cards. Shuffle these cards and put them face down under Mangara's
Tome. Shuffle your library afterwards. If you lose control of Mangara's
Tome, remove all cards under it from the game. <2>: Instead of drawing a
card, put the top card from under Mangara's Tome into your hand.
{Ignore the first line break. The removal of cards from the game is a
"comes into play" effect, so Titania's song will not stop it. [10/03/96]}
Green Sylvan Library g--RlU1 1G
Enchantment
You may draw two extra cards during your draw phase. If you do so, put
two of the cards drawn this turn back on top of your library (in any
order) or pay 4 life per card not replaced. Effects that prevent or
redirect damage cannot be used to counter this loss of life.
{LG: "... phase, then either put two ... or lose 4 lives per ... may not
be used ..."}
As far as I can tell, the answer is yes. Instead of drawing cards from
your library, you can pay mana to draw them from the Tome instead. You
can even choose to take fewer from the tome if you desire.
--
Mike Stern
ster...@netcom.com
"A waste is such a terrible thing to mind"
Anonymous Garbage Dump Supervisor
David DeLaney
Gandalf <mithr...@abaco.coastalnet.com> writes:
>If you have Mangara's Tome and Sylvan Library in play, can you pay 6
>mana to take the top three cards from under the tome, keep one, and then
>place the other two on top of your library?
No. Nice try, but no. Cards taken from under the Tome have not been
drawn. ["Instead of drawing a card..."]
Dave
--
\/David DeLaney d...@panacea.phys.utk.edu "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://enigma.phys.utk.edu/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.
Martin Giessen
David DeLaney <d...@panacea.phys.utk.edu> wrote in article
<544qca$a...@gaia.ns.utk.edu>...
: Gandalf <mithr...@abaco.coastalnet.com> writes:
: >If you have Mangara's Tome and Sylvan Library in play, can you pay 6
: >mana to take the top three cards from under the tome, keep one, and then
: >place the other two on top of your library?
:
: No. Nice try, but no. Cards taken from under the Tome have not been
: drawn. ["Instead of drawing a card..."]
Why? Sylvian Library says ...draw two extra cards... and Mangara's Tome
says ...Instead of drawing....
Sterling
David DeLaney (d...@panacea.phys.utk.edu) cheerfully quipped:
: Gandalf <mithr...@abaco.coastalnet.com> writes:
: >If you have Mangara's Tome and Sylvan Library in play, can you pay 6
: >mana to take the top three cards from under the tome, keep one, and then
: >place the other two on top of your library?
:
: No. Nice try, but no. Cards taken from under the Tome have not been
: drawn. ["Instead of drawing a card..."]
But I suppose you could pay 4 and get two cards from the Tome
with a Howling Mine out?
Mike Marcelais
Gandalf <mithr...@abaco.coastalnet.com> wrote in article
<326523...@abaco.coastalnet.com>...
| If you have Mangara's Tome and Sylvan Library in play, can you pay 6
| mana to take the top three cards from under the tome, keep one, and then
| place the other two on top of your library?
Yes. You can also use the Tome with Al's Lamp.
[NB: If you want, you can pay (2), draw 1 card from the Tome and two from your
library, or any other combination. You even get to see the first card before
deciding if you want to pay the (2) to draw the next card from the Tome vs
your library]
--
+------------------------+----------------------+
| Mike Marcelais | Excel Developer and |
| mich...@microsoft.com | Magic Rules Guru |
+------------------------+----------------------+
| Opinions expressed in this post are mine, and |
| do not necessarily reflect those of Microsoft |
+--= Moonstone Dragon =---------------= UDIC =--+
Mike Marcelais
Martin Giessen <gie...@xs4all.nl> wrote in article
<01bbbc41$b8199100$2a2d...@giessen.xs4all.nl>...
|
|
| David DeLaney <d...@panacea.phys.utk.edu> wrote in article
| <544qca$a...@gaia.ns.utk.edu>...
| : Gandalf <mithr...@abaco.coastalnet.com> writes:
| : >If you have Mangara's Tome and Sylvan Library in play, can you pay 6
| : >mana to take the top three cards from under the tome, keep one, and then
|
| : >place the other two on top of your library?
| :
| : No. Nice try, but no. Cards taken from under the Tome have not been
| : drawn. ["Instead of drawing a card..."]
|
| Why? Sylvian Library says ...draw two extra cards... and Mangara's Tome
| says ...Instead of drawing....
Actually, I see what Dave is nitpicking at. You can substitute the Tome for
the draws from the Library, but when you go to return the cards, he's arguing
that the cards you got from the Tome are not `cards drawn this turn', so you
don't have any cards to return to the library.
However, I don't like this interpretation because the 4E Sylvan Library has
been ruled to have a COST of 4 life to keep a card (rather than a penalty of 4
life for failing to return a card like the Legend version). This means that
if you choose not to pay the 4 life, you must return a card. The `return a
card' will then fail, meaning that for 6 mana you get to keep all 3 cards.
I'd argue that if you are told to `draw a card' and you do some effect that
replaces the draw [Ring of MaRuf, Mangara's Tome, Forbidden Crypt, etc.] and
the effect gives you a card, that cards counts as a the card drawn. It just
was drawn in a very non-standard way, but it is still a card drawn. [Note
that effects which trigger on drawing cards like the Chains will not trigger
on this card, unless the `replacement' effect involves drawing cards like Al's
Lamp]. So you can return the cards gotten from Mangara's Tome to your library
with the Library.
[Note that this isn't a big deal with Mangara's Tome, but with Forbidden Crypt
it is a very big deal].
Dale Friesen
In article <sternkinD...@netcom.com>, ster...@netcom.com (Mike
Stern) wrote:
: Gandalf (mithr...@abaco.coastalnet.com) wrote:
: : If you have Mangara's Tome and Sylvan Library in play, can you pay 6
: : mana to take the top three cards from under the tome, keep one, and then
: : place the other two on top of your library?
:
: Artif Mangara's Tome mR 5
: Artifact
: When Mangara's Tome comes into play, search your library and choose any
: five cards. Shuffle these cards and put them face down under Mangara's
: Tome. Shuffle your library afterwards. If you lose control of Mangara's
: Tome, remove all cards under it from the game. <2>: Instead of drawing a
: card, put the top card from under Mangara's Tome into your hand.
: {Ignore the first line break. The removal of cards from the game is a
: "comes into play" effect, so Titania's song will not stop it. [10/03/96]}
:
: Green Sylvan Library g--RlU1 1G
: Enchantment
: You may draw two extra cards during your draw phase. If you do so, put
: two of the cards drawn this turn back on top of your library (in any
: order) or pay 4 life per card not replaced. Effects that prevent or
: redirect damage cannot be used to counter this loss of life.
: {LG: "... phase, then either put two ... or lose 4 lives per ... may not
: be used ..."}
:
: As far as I can tell, the answer is yes. Instead of drawing cards from
: your library, you can pay mana to draw them from the Tome instead. You
: can even choose to take fewer from the tome if you desire.
I disagree (no offense). Taking cards from Mangara's Tome, while occuring
during your draw phase, is not drawing cards. Those are not "cards drawn",
so they can't take advantage of the Sylvan Library's card *drawing*
effects.
:
: --
: Mike Stern
: ster...@netcom.com
:
: "A waste is such a terrible thing to mind"
: Anonymous Garbage Dump Supervisor
--
Dale Friesen Sysadmin
Bolen Books, Inc Victoria, BC Canada
da...@bolen.bc.ca http://www.bolen.bc.ca/
These opinions are mine, not necessarily Bolen Books'.
Paul Steiner
cards. You can however look at your top 2 cards and take on of them for
4 life from your libary. I may be wrong about this but after you draw
the five cards from the libary the tome stays in play. Therefore
couldn't you keep paying 2 mana per turn to not draw a card. i.e.
survive without any cards in you libary.
Paul
--
Head over heels I've fit in before
Now I don't want to do it no more
I just want to be who I want to be
Guess that hard for others to see
Jonathan J Venezian
And why couldn't you draw one card from library, use the Sylvan to draw
two additional, and pay 4 to take the two additioal from under the Tome?
(and then replace two on top of the library, or pay life ...)
This would seem perfectly legal, since the first card is a draw, thus
letting you trigger the Sylvan ....
Cenneth Lööf
> No. Nice try, but no. Cards taken from under the Tome have not been
> drawn. ["Instead of drawing a card..."]
I bet it does work. Sylvan Library says to *draw* the 2 extra cards and,
as you say, the Tome says *Instead of drawing a card*.
Mangara is cumulative.
Sylvan would put those extra cards drawn from Mangara on top of the
library
but that is where we want them if somebody disenchants Mangara. Right?
:)
/Cenneth
toby & elaine robison
> Dale Friesen Sysadmin
Taking a card from mangara's tome is not a "draw", but you can take a
card
from MT instead of ANY draw. Thus the claim is that you use Sylvain's
Lib to
draw to extra cards, and optionally take from MT instead of THESE extra
draws.
The MT cards are not drawn cards and cannot be returned to your lib to
satisfy
the final condition of SL.
--
Toby
Cpa...@ix.netcom.com
Mike Stern
toby & elaine robison (cpa...@ix.netcom.com) wrote:
: Taking a card from mangara's tome is not a "draw", but you can take a
: card
: from MT instead of ANY draw. Thus the claim is that you use Sylvain's
: Lib to
: draw to extra cards, and optionally take from MT instead of THESE extra
: draws.
: The MT cards are not drawn cards and cannot be returned to your lib to
: satisfy
: the final condition of SL.
I have been told that Bethmo has answered this question with a ruling on
MTG-L (reply #187). The answer is that you _can_ use the Tome with the
Library, but it will cost you lives, since you cannot return cards.
I'm not certain about the reasoning behind this decision, because
1) The Sylvan Library allows you to draw extra cards.
2) Instead of drawing those cards, you pay mana to pluck cards from the
Tome.
3) The life penalty on Sylvan Library is for "cards drawn this turn"
4) Since the cards were not drawn at all, you don't have to pay the penalty.
5) Since the cards were not drawn at all ("instead of drawing"), they can't
be returned to the library at all ("put 2 of the cards DRAWN this turn").
I think that Bethmo's ruling needs to be reviewed in light of the above
reasoning. I understand that SL's powere to draw has been used, but it
was changed to something else. Tom, could you confirm Bethmo's ruling...
and the reasoning behind it, if possible.
Ad Rovers
In article <sternkinD...@netcom.com>, ster...@netcom.com says...
[snip]
>I have been told that Bethmo has answered this question with a ruling on
>MTG-L (reply #187). The answer is that you _can_ use the Tome with the
>Library, but it will cost you lives, since you cannot return cards.
>
>I'm not certain about the reasoning behind this decision, because
>1) The Sylvan Library allows you to draw extra cards.
>2) Instead of drawing those cards, you pay mana to pluck cards from the
> Tome.
>3) The life penalty on Sylvan Library is for "cards drawn this turn"
>4) Since the cards were not drawn at all, you don't have to pay the penalty.
>5) Since the cards were not drawn at all ("instead of drawing"), they can't
> be returned to the library at all ("put 2 of the cards DRAWN this turn").
>I think that Bethmo's ruling needs to be reviewed in light of the above
>reasoning. I understand that SL's powere to draw has been used, but it
>was changed to something else. Tom, could you confirm Bethmo's ruling...
>and the reasoning behind it, if possible.
I think the problem lies with 3). The penalty is not for cards drawn, but for cards
not returned this turn. So 4) doesn't happen. The problem that does appear is if you
use it in this way and you dan't have 8 life to *pay*. You can't pay life you don't
have and can't return cards you didn't draw. I think it'll probably rules as a loss
of life in such cases.
'Nuff Said
Ad Rovers
Dale Friesen
: > :
: > : As far as I can tell, the answer is yes. Instead of drawing cards from
: > : your library, you can pay mana to draw them from the Tome instead. You
: > : can even choose to take fewer from the tome if you desire.
: >
: > I disagree (no offense). Taking cards from Mangara's Tome, while occuring
: > during your draw phase, is not drawing cards. Those are not "cards drawn",
: > so they can't take advantage of the Sylvan Library's card *drawing*
: > effects.
: > :
: > : --
: > : Mike Stern
: > : ster...@netcom.com
: > :
: --
: > Dale Friesen Sysadmin
:
: Taking a card from mangara's tome is not a "draw", but you can take a
: card
: from MT instead of ANY draw. Thus the claim is that you use Sylvain's
: Lib to
: draw to extra cards, and optionally take from MT instead of THESE extra
: draws.
: The MT cards are not drawn cards and cannot be returned to your lib to
: satisfy
: the final condition of SL.
:
: --
: Toby
: Cpa...@ix.netcom.com
Well, that would work if moving cards from the tome to your hand were a
draw, but as you say above, it isn't.
From the Mirage rule book, pages 53-54:
When you're instructed to draw a card, put the top card of your
library into your hand. Effects that trigger when a card is drawn or that
modify how cards are drawn apply only when you're told specifically to
draw a card. If the effect simply moves cards around and happens to move a
card from your library into your hand, that isn't considered drawing a
card.
I interpret this to mean that taking cards from the tome is not a draw,
and so the Sylvan Library's effect can't affect it. I suppose it could be
argued that the Sylvan Library allows for three draws and Mangara's Tome
only replaces one of them, but that wasn't the question above.
Patrick Allison
>| mana to take the top three cards from under the tome, keep one, and then
>| place the other two on top of your library?
>
>
>[NB: If you want, you can pay (2), draw 1 card from the Tome and two from
your
>library, or any other combination. You even get to see the first card before
>deciding if you want to pay the (2) to draw the next card from the Tome vs
>your library]
Never mind that the Aladdin's Lamp + Tome = stupid... (what're you doing
playing with an Aladdin's Lamp!! but, anyway)
I think the main question is, with cards that redirect draws, and since there
are a total of 4 now? (Mangara's Tome, Jandor's Ring, Forbidden
Crypt, and Ring of Ma'Ruf) do effects like Sylvan Library, Casting of Bones,
etc. tag the cards? In my opinion, they do, and here's my reasoning.
Situations:
Sylvan Library + Island Sanctuary
Standard. Look at the top two cards of your library & pay life for 'em if
you want 'em. If you activate the Sanctuary, you'll just never draw those two.
Sylvan Library + Ring of Ma'Ruf
Going by strict rules, Ring of Ma'Ruf can't be stopped by a Zur's Wierding,
since it's not a draw, and therefore, can't be nailed by a Sylvan Library
either (doesn't matter, unless you had three Rings of Ma'Ruf somehow.)
Same situation applies to the other ones.
But IMHO, if a card is replacing your draw, for cards which affect
cards drawn this turn, they also affects cards obtained by replacement
of draw. This is tricky, though. What if there were a way to gain something
else by declining a draw? Would you lose those to a Sylvan? Augh. This
is confusing. Tom? Help? :)
Pat
David DeLaney
"Martin Giessen" <gie...@xs4all.nl> writes:
>David DeLaney <d...@panacea.phys.utk.edu> wrote in article
><544qca$a...@gaia.ns.utk.edu>...
>: Gandalf <mithr...@abaco.coastalnet.com> writes:
>
>: >place the other two on top of your library?
>: No. Nice try, but no. Cards taken from under the Tome have not been
>: drawn. ["Instead of drawing a card..."]
>
>says ...Instead of drawing....
Don't misinterpret my answer - what Gandalf wants to do is fine all the way up
to "from under the tome"... but he _can't_ put cards taken from under the
Tome on top of his library, because they _weren't_ "drawn this turn". They
weren't drawn at all. He can get the cards from ujnder the tome just fine,
but can't put any of _them_ back, so has to put other cards drawn already
back or pay the life.
David DeLaney
ster...@netcom.com (Mike Stern) writes:
>3) The life penalty on Sylvan Library is for "cards drawn this turn"
Read the card. It has no "penalty for cards drawn this turn". It has a
condition: put back two cards that you drew this turn, or else pay 4 life
for each card of the two you're required to put back that you didn't. If
you _can't_ put back two, you have to pay for however many you didn't
put back. If you use two Rings of Ma'Ruf on your Sylvan Library draws,
you encounter a similar situation - the cards you got from outside the
game can't go back onto the library, and the Library will ding you unless
you put two cards back...
David DeLaney
Jonathan J Venezian <J...@MIT.EDU> writes:
>And why couldn't you draw one card from library, use the Sylvan to draw
>two additional, and pay 4 to take the two additioal from under the Tome?
That's fine.
>(and then replace two on top of the library, or pay life ...)
That's not fine, really - you've only got one card you've _drawn_ so far
this turn that you can replace. [The cards you took from under the Tome
_weren't_ drawn. You can put back the card you drew normally, or any cantrip
cards you drew at start of upkeep, or any Howling Mine cards, etc. But the
ones from under the Tome can't end up on top of your library thru the SL's
power.]
Paul Barclay
In article <54a31q$c...@gaia.ns.utk.edu> d...@panacea.phys.utk.edu (David DeLaney) writes:
>From: d...@panacea.phys.utk.edu (David DeLaney)
>Subject: Re: TOM: Mangara's Tome Q
>Date: 19 Oct 1996 08:21:14 GMT
>"Martin Giessen" <gie...@xs4all.nl> writes:
>>David DeLaney <d...@panacea.phys.utk.edu> wrote in article
>><544qca$a...@gaia.ns.utk.edu>...
>>: Gandalf <mithr...@abaco.coastalnet.com> writes:
>>: >If you have Mangara's Tome and Sylvan Library in play, can you pay 6
>>: >mana to take the top three cards from under the tome, keep one, and then
>>
>>: >place the other two on top of your library?
>>:
>>: No. Nice try, but no. Cards taken from under the Tome have not been
>>: drawn. ["Instead of drawing a card..."]
>>
>>Why? Sylvian Library says ...draw two extra cards... and Mangara's Tome
>>says ...Instead of drawing....
>Don't misinterpret my answer - what Gandalf wants to do is fine all the way up
>to "from under the tome"... but he _can't_ put cards taken from under the
>Tome on top of his library, because they _weren't_ "drawn this turn". They
>weren't drawn at all. He can get the cards from ujnder the tome just fine,
>but can't put any of _them_ back, so has to put other cards drawn already
>back or pay the life.
Situation: You're on 1 life, you have the Tome and Sylvan in play, and it's
your Draw phase (you didn't do anything during Upkeep). You activate the
Sylvan Library, then pay 4 mana to take the 2 cards from the Tome instead.
What happens next? You can't pay the 8 life because you only have 1 and you
can't put 2 cards back because you haven't drawn any, so presumably nothing
happens.
Related question: You use the Sylvan to draw 2 dark Rituals (before your
normal draw). During the resolution of the Sylvan, you cast both of them. What
happens?
Paul Barclay.
David Johnson
"Mike Marcelais" <mich...@microsoft.com> wrote:
>Martin Giessen <gie...@xs4all.nl> wrote in article
><01bbbc41$b8199100$2a2d...@giessen.xs4all.nl>...
>|
>|
>| <544qca$a...@gaia.ns.utk.edu>...
>| : Gandalf <mithr...@abaco.coastalnet.com> writes:
>| : >If you have Mangara's Tome and Sylvan Library in play, can you pay 6
>| : >mana to take the top three cards from under the tome, keep one, and then
>|
>| : >place the other two on top of your library?
>| :
>| : No. Nice try, but no. Cards taken from under the Tome have not been
>| : drawn. ["Instead of drawing a card..."]
>|
>| Why? Sylvian Library says ...draw two extra cards... and Mangara's Tome
>| says ...Instead of drawing....
>Actually, I see what Dave is nitpicking at. You can substitute the Tome for
>the draws from the Library, but when you go to return the cards, he's arguing
>that the cards you got from the Tome are not `cards drawn this turn', so you
>don't have any cards to return to the library.
I'd agree with Dave.
>However, I don't like this interpretation because the 4E Sylvan Library has
>been ruled to have a COST of 4 life to keep a card (rather than a penalty of 4
>life for failing to return a card like the Legend version). This means that
>if you choose not to pay the 4 life, you must return a card. The `return a
>card' will then fail, meaning that for 6 mana you get to keep all 3 cards.
I think that's because it says "pay" 4 life not "lose" 4 life.
"Loss of life from the Legends version of Sylvan Library also has no
effect on a Lich.The Fourth Edition version of Sylvan Library requires
you to pay life and cannot be used by a Lich at all. [Aahz 07/05/95]"
Not because it is a cost of an effect. The payment is a consequence
of not returning the cards. Well - maybe. Actually the "do X or do Y"
stuff is a bit unclear since Tom made that ruling over-riding the
rules as were, but without actually saying what did happen...
What is unclear is whether you may choose an option X or
Y when you know that the option's instructions cannot be
applied. [ eg a Lich couldn't apply the pay life and our Managara
scenario couldn't apply the return drawn card option].
AFAIK it used to be that you could choose Y irrespective but X
only if the instruction could be applied. It _may_ now be that you
can choose either irrespective....
If the LATTER then you may choose to return two of your drawn cards
(whoops there are none - works with 2 cast Dark Rituals too) and
forget the payment. In which case I'd be agreeing with you but
for different reasons.
>I'd argue that if you are told to `draw a card' and you do some effect that
>replaces the draw [Ring of MaRuf, Mangara's Tome, Forbidden Crypt, etc.] and
>the effect gives you a card, that cards counts as a the card drawn. It just
>was drawn in a very non-standard way, but it is still a card drawn. [Note
>that effects which trigger on drawing cards like the Chains will not trigger
>on this card, unless the `replacement' effect involves drawing cards like Al's
>Lamp]. So you can return the cards gotten from Mangara's Tome to your library
>with the Library.
I assume you are making this argument for a CHANGE in the rules,
not as an argument about what the rules say NOW?
I'd disagree. As your mention of Chains of Mephistopheles shows,
it could get a little complex and there's no reason to change things
as they stand is there?
>[Note that this isn't a big deal with Mangara's Tome, but with Forbidden Crypt
>it is a very big deal].
Forbidden Crypt:
For each card you would draw, instead choose target card in your
graveyard and put it into your hand. If you cannot, you lose the game.
Whenever a card is put into your graveyard, remove that card from the
game.
So FC + SL = 2 free cards per turn? [if "do X or do Y" as above]
Well with Lich it would be anyway. I suppose FC and SL are a
bit easier to come by though!!!
David
da chicken
ster...@netcom.com (Mike Stern) wrote:
>I have been told that Bethmo has answered this question with a ruling on
>MTG-L (reply #187). The answer is that you _can_ use the Tome with the
>Library, but it will cost you lives, since you cannot return cards.
>I'm not certain about the reasoning behind this decision, because
>1) The Sylvan Library allows you to draw extra cards.
>2) Instead of drawing those cards, you pay mana to pluck cards from the
> Tome.
>3) The life penalty on Sylvan Library is for "cards drawn this turn"
>4) Since the cards were not drawn at all, you don't have to pay the penalty.
>5) Since the cards were not drawn at all ("instead of drawing"), they can't
> be returned to the library at all ("put 2 of the cards DRAWN this turn").
>I think that Bethmo's ruling needs to be reviewed in light of the above
>reasoning. I understand that SL's powere to draw has been used, but it
>was changed to something else. Tom, could you confirm Bethmo's ruling...
>and the reasoning behind it, if possible.
But the Sylvan thinks you drew 2 cards. It's gonna want them back or
the librarian's gonna be pissed and beat the crap out of you.
Unfortunately for you, you ripped two pages out of your Phone Book
(Mangara's Tome-- Dial M for Mega and T for Tutor).
Think of Sylvan being worded this way:
0: Draw 2 cards, then put 2 cards drawn this turn from your hand back
on top of your library, or pay 4 life per card not replaced . Use
this ability only during your draw phase and only once per turn.
So, you draw your normal card, but use the Tome instead (rip). Then
you activate the Library and check out 2 books (draw 2 cards), but
instead of drawing, you use the Tome again (rip, rip). Now the
librarian want's some books back. But you didn't check any out
(normal draw), you plucked them from beneath the Tome (not a draw...
cool with Enduring Renewal) and you can't give back what you don't
have (and you ceartainly can't give her 2 pages from the Phone Book).
So she takes a peice of your ass instead. And you thought green was
nice.
--
Brandon Aiken (a.k.a. da chicken)
bai...@engin.umich.edu
Brain: Pinky, are you pondering what I'm pondering?
Pinky: I think so Brain, but me and Pipi Longstocking? I mean what would the children look like?
Mike Stern
David DeLaney (d...@panacea.phys.utk.edu) wrote:
: ster...@netcom.com (Mike Stern) writes:
: >3) The life penalty on Sylvan Library is for "cards drawn this turn"
: Read the card. It has no "penalty for cards drawn this turn". It has a
: condition: put back two cards that you drew this turn, or else pay 4 life
: for each card of the two you're required to put back that you didn't. If
: you _can't_ put back two, you have to pay for however many you didn't
: put back. If you use two Rings of Ma'Ruf on your Sylvan Library draws,
: you encounter a similar situation - the cards you got from outside the
: game can't go back onto the library, and the Library will ding you unless
: you put two cards back...
Green Sylvan Library g--RlU1 1G
Enchantment
You may draw two extra cards during your draw phase. If you do so, put
^^^^^^^^^^^^
two of the cards drawn this turn back on top of your library (in any
order) or pay 4 life per card not replaced. Effects that prevent or
redirect damage cannot be used to counter this loss of life.
{LG: "... phase, then either put two ... or lose 4 lives per ... may not
be used ..."}
I would argue that the above underlined phrase exempts you from the life
payment. You have not drawn two extra cards. You have done something
that does not count as a draw. In order for it to work the way that
WotC wants it to work, it needs errata. (maybe "put two of the cards
placed into your hand this turn..." - maybe not, since that would cause
life payment if the effect wasn't used at all) I dunno. This one is
(or appears to be) broken if used the way that WotC wants it to be played.
Mike Marcelais
| Green Sylvan Library g--RlU1 1G
| Enchantment
| You may draw two extra cards during your draw phase. If you do so, put
| ^^^^^^^^^^^^
| I would argue that the above underlined phrase exempts you from the life
| payment. You have not drawn two extra cards.
Err....I don't like this interpretation at all. This means that after you use
the Library, you start to draw card #1, do this Tome thing, and you haven't
actually drawn a card. Now you go to draw card #1 (because you still haven't
drawn a card), repeat. Eventually sucking up all 5 cards under your Tome,
PLUS 2 more from your library.
I'm almost sure that the `If you do so' refers to trying to execute the first
sentence, whether or not it went exactly as the sentence planned.
Furthermore, [In My Opinion] if an effect tells you to draw X cards, and you
do something that looks like drawing but isn't [currently, all of the draw
replaement effects do net you a card], that the card which the replacement
effect has `served up' counts as a drawn card FOR the effect that required the
draws. [So Sylvan Library will see the two cards it asked you to get,
regardless of how you got them, plus any other cards drawn this turn. [But it
won't see replacement effect cards for draw effects earlier this turn, like
using M's tome on your `free' draw]].
So, regardless of how you get the cards, the two cards you get from the
Library are eligible for replacement.
The `metarule' that I'm trying to promote here: If effect X asks you to do Y,
and you have some replaement effect that does Z instead of Y, then effect X
(but only effect X) will see the results of Z to be the results of Y. [In
this case X = Sylvan Library, Y = draw a card, Z = Mangara's Tome, the results
of Z is the card you get from the Tome, the results of Y is a drawn card].
Mike Stern
Mike Marcelais (mich...@microsoft.com) wrote:
: | Green Sylvan Library g--RlU1 1G
: | You may draw two extra cards during your draw phase. If you do so, put
: | ^^^^^^^^^^^^
: | two of the cards drawn this turn back on top of your library...
: | I would argue that the above underlined phrase exempts you from the life
: | payment. You have not drawn two extra cards.
: Err....I don't like this interpretation at all. This means that after you use
I certainly don't either. I _think_ that it should be played the way that
bethmo ruled, but I really don't see how that interpretation can be made,
given the wording on the card.
: the Library, you start to draw card #1, do this Tome thing, and you haven't
: actually drawn a card. Now you go to draw card #1 (because you still haven't
: drawn a card), repeat. Eventually sucking up all 5 cards under your Tome,
: PLUS 2 more from your library.
Aaarghh! I hadn't even thought of this one. This makes the card even more
broken (brokener? Yeah, brokener!) than I thought.
: I'm almost sure that the `If you do so' refers to trying to execute the first
: sentence, whether or not it went exactly as the sentence planned.
I'd like to agree with this, but... I'd rather see a ruling that says that
if you try to substitute something other than a draw for sylvan library,
the effect fizzles, and you get nothing. Nada. Zip. That, I could live
with, since then you cannot use the ability or need to pay life unless you
actually draw a card. The problem with this is that there is no applicable
meta-rule (like Mickey Phoenix wants), and it devolves into just a card
ruling.
: Furthermore, [In My Opinion] if an effect tells you to draw X cards, and you
: do something that looks like drawing but isn't [currently, all of the draw
: replaement effects do net you a card], that the card which the replacement
: effect has `served up' counts as a drawn card FOR the effect that required the
: draws. [So Sylvan Library will see the two cards it asked you to get,
: regardless of how you got them, plus any other cards drawn this turn. [But it
: won't see replacement effect cards for draw effects earlier this turn, like
: using M's tome on your `free' draw]].
I could live with this, since it is a rule that is applicable across many
cards. Perhaps this is what the metarule that Bethmo made her ruling from...
it certainly makes sense. I haven't seen her ruling (only been told about
it), so I can't comment on whether it was explained in this fashion or not.
If this is a rule, it should be included in the rulebook (hint, Tom).
: So, regardless of how you get the cards, the two cards you get from the
: Library are eligible for replacement.
: The `metarule' that I'm trying to promote here: If effect X asks you to do Y,
: and you have some replaement effect that does Z instead of Y, then effect X
: (but only effect X) will see the results of Z to be the results of Y. [In
: this case X = Sylvan Library, Y = draw a card, Z = Mangara's Tome, the results
: of Z is the card you get from the Tome, the results of Y is a drawn card].
: --
: +------------------------+----------------------+
: | Mike Marcelais | Excel Developer and |
: | mich...@microsoft.com | Magic Rules Guru |
: +------------------------+----------------------+
: | Opinions expressed in this post are mine, and |
: | do not necessarily reflect those of Microsoft |
: +--= Moonstone Dragon =---------------= UDIC =--+
--
Thomas R Wylie
Gandalf <mithr...@abaco.coastalnet.com> wrote:
>If you have Mangara's Tome and Sylvan Library in play, can you pay 6
>mana to take the top three cards from under the tome, keep one, and then
>place the other two on top of your library?
You can use Mangara's Tome to replace the three draws (normal draw, plus
the Sylvan two) with putting Tome cards into your hand. However, the
cards that came from under the Tome are not considered drawn in any
shape or form. Note that this works really well with Sylvan Library,
which basically says "choose two cards you drew this turn, and for each
such card, pay 4 life or put the card on your library." Since you didn't
draw any cards this turn, you don't choose any, and dodge the Sylvan bullet.
Tom Wylie rec.games.trading-cards.* Network Representative for
aa...@cats.ucsc.edu Wizards of the Coast, Inc.
Thomas R Wylie
Mike Marcelais <mich...@microsoft.com> wrote:
>Furthermore, [In My Opinion] if an effect tells you to draw X cards, and you
>do something that looks like drawing but isn't [currently, all of the draw
>replaement effects do net you a card], that the card which the replacement
>effect has `served up' counts as a drawn card FOR the effect that required the
>draws...
Bleah. This might work if you're just focusing on do-something-with-cards-
instead-of-drawing effects, but consider "For each card you draw, gain 1 life
instead." Clearly you get into trouble if you try to apply 'do this with
cards' effects to the life that you gained. And the only way out of the
trouble is to build further exceptions/specifications into the rule, which
means it quickly gets pretty ugly. In the end, it's best to have just said
"If you do X instead of Y, then X didn't happen, so effects that would have
applied to it do nothing."
It's also difficult to explain why, under your system, the cards are "drawn"
enough to be put back by the Library effect, but not enough to trigger, say,
Underworld Dreams. And it should be clear that you don't want the Dreams
to trigger, since the Tome effect didn't say to draw cards.
>The `metarule' that I'm trying to promote here: If effect X asks you to do Y,
>and you have some replaement effect that does Z instead of Y, then effect X
>(but only effect X) will see the results of Z to be the results of Y. [In
>this case X = Sylvan Library, Y = draw a card, Z = Mangara's Tome, the results
>of Z is the card you get from the Tome, the results of Y is a drawn card].
Again, this seems like it just can't be a good idea.
Thomas R Wylie
David Johnson <dav...@msol.u-net.com> wrote:
>Forbidden Crypt:
>For each card you would draw, instead choose target card in your
>graveyard and put it into your hand. If you cannot, you lose the game.
>Whenever a card is put into your graveyard, remove that card from the game.
>So FC + SL = 2 free cards per turn? [if "do X or do Y" as above]
Well, yes, for as long as your graveyard holds out.
Walter Goodwin
In article <54hj14$v...@darkstar.ucsc.edu>,
Thomas R Wylie <aa...@cats.ucsc.edu> wrote:
>
>You can use Mangara's Tome to replace the three draws (normal draw, plus
>the Sylvan two) with putting Tome cards into your hand. However, the
>cards that came from under the Tome are not considered drawn in any
>shape or form. Note that this works really well with Sylvan Library,
>which basically says "choose two cards you drew this turn, and for each
>such card, pay 4 life or put the card on your library." Since you didn't
>draw any cards this turn, you don't choose any, and dodge the Sylvan bullet.
>
that started up all this right? :) Okay, since no cards were drawn
this turn, (which you just stated), can I use the sylvan library
to draw up to 2 extra cards this turn? :) I wish I had one right here
in front of me, but are you sure thats what the 4'th version says?
Guess I'll just have to check tommorrow :)
David Johnson
jgoo...@expert.cc.purdue.edu (Walter Goodwin) wrote:
>>You can use Mangara's Tome to replace the three draws (normal draw, plus
>>the Sylvan two) with putting Tome cards into your hand. However, the
>>cards that came from under the Tome are not considered drawn in any
>>shape or form. Note that this works really well with Sylvan Library,
>>which basically says "choose two cards you drew this turn, and for each
>>such card, pay 4 life or put the card on your library." Since you didn't
>>draw any cards this turn, you don't choose any, and dodge the Sylvan bullet.
>>
>Now you realize that you just contradicted the ruling, by, umm bethmo?
>that started up all this right? :)
That's what you get for wanting on-the-spot rulings, I suppose.
However it would be nice if more effort went into making sure that
the people who know the rules best, also "knew" the same rules.
Anyway.
Tom: you are saying that with a choice "do X or do Y" (here
X=put back a drawn card, Y=pay 4 life) you may freely choose
an option you have no hope of fulfiling??
Just checking as this has big implications.
[doesn't apply to "must do X, or do Y" or "do X. if you don't do Y"]
So for example you can, with Force of Nature,
"During your upkeep, pay GGGG or Force of Nature deals 8
damage to you."
...choose to pay the mana even when you have no mana
and completely avoid the damage?
Doesn't sound quite right really. Are you excepting phase costs?
Is Sylvan Library's effect a phase cost?
Or is the old rule about "do X or do Y" still in force (ie that you
may only pick the 1st option if you are able to perform it)? and
you are ruling on Sylvan Library this way because of some other
reversal you have in mind?
David
Jasper Janssen
aa...@cats.ucsc.edu (Thomas R Wylie) wrote:
>David Johnson <dav...@msol.u-net.com> wrote:
>>Forbidden Crypt:
>>For each card you would draw, instead choose target card in your
>>graveyard and put it into your hand. If you cannot, you lose the game.
>>Whenever a card is put into your graveyard, remove that card from the game.
>>So FC + SL = 2 free cards per turn? [if "do X or do Y" as above]
>Well, yes, for as long as your graveyard holds out.
Demonic tutor THREE cards out of your graveyard EVERY turn! and since
you're playing green, you have tranquillity to destroy it! , oh and
with LoL, and that 2 mana for a card discarded would make DL rather a
bad thing for your opponent... Of course, This is a 4 or so card
combo... rather destroys tourney-worthiness IMHO.
Bye,
Jasper.
******************************************************************
*** Anything I say should be taken with a few pounds of salt, ***
*** I'm way too tired right now to make sense. ***
******************************************************************
Mike Stern
Thomas R Wylie (aa...@cats.ucsc.edu) wrote:
: Gandalf <mithr...@abaco.coastalnet.com> wrote:
: >If you have Mangara's Tome and Sylvan Library in play, can you pay 6
: >mana to take the top three cards from under the tome, keep one, and then
: >place the other two on top of your library?
: You can use Mangara's Tome to replace the three draws (normal draw, plus
: the Sylvan two) with putting Tome cards into your hand. However, the
: cards that came from under the Tome are not considered drawn in any
: shape or form. Note that this works really well with Sylvan Library,
: which basically says "choose two cards you drew this turn, and for each
: such card, pay 4 life or put the card on your library." Since you didn't
: draw any cards this turn, you don't choose any, and dodge the Sylvan bullet.
Has this information been passed on to bethmo and D'Angelo? I know that
Mike is prob'ly working very hard on the next rulings file, but we don't
want to have bethmo's ruling show up, followed by a reversal...
David DeLaney
PB...@cam.ac.uk (Paul Barclay) writes:
>Situation: You're on 1 life, you have the Tome and Sylvan in play, and it's
>your Draw phase (you didn't do anything during Upkeep). You activate the
>Sylvan Library, then pay 4 mana to take the 2 cards from the Tome instead.
>What happens next? You can't pay the 8 life because you only have 1 and you
>can't put 2 cards back because you haven't drawn any, so presumably nothing
>happens.
Yep. If you can't do _any_ of the alternatives given for a set of alternatives
you are being forced to choose between ... then nothing happens. Fortunately,
it usually requires Bizarre Circumstances for this to happen, as the
normal alternatives given usually cover everything but corner cases. [If you're
playing a Legends SL as written, you'll lose life instead of paying it ...
and in this case will be forced to lose life, since you can't replace cards.]
>Related question: You use the Sylvan to draw 2 dark Rituals (before your
>normal draw). During the resolution of the Sylvan, you cast both of them. What
>happens?
Well, the drawing of the two cards is _also_ during the resolution of the
Library. Just so we don't get confused here. That noted, if you cast the
mana-source-speed Rituals after they're drawn but before you have to replace
cards, then you either replace cards you've drawn previously this turn ... or
pay life. If you can't do either, then again nothing _else_ happens.
Charles J Poirier - Archslob of the Unclean
David Johnson <dav...@msol.u-net.com> wrote:
>>Aahz wrote:
>>>You can use Mangara's Tome to replace the three draws (normal draw, plus
>>>the Sylvan two) with putting Tome cards into your hand. However, the
>>>cards that came from under the Tome are not considered drawn in any
>>>shape or form. Note that this works really well with Sylvan Library,
>>>which basically says "choose two cards you drew this turn, and for each
>>>such card, pay 4 life or put the card on your library." Since you didn't
>>>draw any cards this turn, you don't choose any, and dodge the Sylvan bullet.
>
>X=put back a drawn card, Y=pay 4 life) you may freely choose
>an option you have no hope of fulfiling??
Not at all (by my humble reading). He's saying: How many cards have
been drawn this turn, Sylvan or otherwise? Zero. You moved cards around
*instead* of drawing. So, how many cards drawn this turn are subject
to Sylvan's onus of "return two cards drawn this turn or pay 4 life for
each such card fewer than 2 not returned"? There are zero cards that
meet the criterion "drawn this turn", so Sylvan does not require returning
any.
Presumably, the following also works. Take your "normal" draw from Mangara's
Tome, then draw two Sylvan cards from your library which happen to be
mana sources (Dark Ritual). Cast them during Sylvan's resolution. Once
again, you have no cards in hand drawn this turn subject to the "return
or else" clause of Sylvan Library, and you need not pay any life. Aahz?
Cheers,
Charles Poirier
David Johnson
ster...@netcom.com (Mike Stern) wrote:
>: the Library, you start to draw card #1, do this Tome thing, and you haven't
>: actually drawn a card. Now you go to draw card #1 (because you still haven't
>: drawn a card), repeat. Eventually sucking up all 5 cards under your Tome,
>: PLUS 2 more from your library.
>Aaarghh! I hadn't even thought of this one. This makes the card even more
>broken (brokener? Yeah, brokener!) than I thought.
Let's wait to see if Tom explains his idea.
By the way, you'd only get the 2 cards. Taking a card from MT
replaces the draw from the SL. The library effect won't give you
any further draws merely because something funny happend
to the first two.
David
Patrick Allison
>Presumably, the following also works. Take your "normal" draw from
Mangara's
>Tome, then draw two Sylvan cards from your library which happen to be
>mana sources (Dark Ritual). Cast them during Sylvan's resolution. Once
>again, you have no cards in hand drawn this turn subject to the "return
>or else" clause of Sylvan Library, and you need not pay any life. Aahz?
>
>Cheers,
>Charles Poirier
No, THEN you get burned. Regardless of whether or not you have the cards
in your hand, if you have *drawn* them, you're screwed and the librarian
will beat the crap out of you if you don't return the books. :) You did draw
them, and therefore, you need to pay the life.
Pat
Thomas R Wylie
David Johnson <dav...@msol.u-net.com> wrote:
>Tom: you are saying that with a choice "do X or do Y" (here
>X=put back a drawn card, Y=pay 4 life) you may freely choose
>an option you have no hope of fulfiling??
No. What I am saying is that Sylvan Library is written as "for each A,
do X or do Y." A is 'card you drew this turn'. If you didn't actually
draw any cards that turn, for example if you replaced all your draws with
cards from the Tome, then you never get to the "do X or do Y" part. While
Sylvan Library is out of template, that's what the text effectively says.
As another example, if an effect said "for each card put into any graveyard
this turn, draw a card," and all of the creatures that had been 'killed'
this turn had been regenerated instead, you would draw no cards.
>Just checking as this has big implications.
>[doesn't apply to "must do X, or do Y" or "do X. if you don't do Y"]
>So for example you can, with Force of Nature,
>"During your upkeep, pay GGGG or Force of Nature deals 8
>damage to you."
No. You can only choose to pay GGGG if you have GGGG available.
>Doesn't sound quite right really. Are you excepting phase costs?
No.
>Is Sylvan Library's effect a phase cost?
No. It's just an ability/effect.
David Johnson
aa...@cats.ucsc.edu (Thomas R Wylie) wrote:
>No. What I am saying is that Sylvan Library is written as "for each A,
>do X or do Y." A is 'card you drew this turn'. If you didn't actually
>draw any cards that turn, for example if you replaced all your draws with
>cards from the Tome, then you never get to the "do X or do Y" part. While
>Sylvan Library is out of template, that's what the text effectively says.
Ok. Well my only probelm then is that Sylvan Library would
appear NOT to be written like that:
Sylvan Library:
put two of the cards drawn this turn back on top of your library
(in any order) or pay 4 life per card not replaced.
Strictly interpreted it says you can only return two or zero cards.
[so stuff that!]
I'd say that a better interpretation would be:
Put a card drawn this turn back on top of your library or pay 4 life
Put a card drawn this turn back on top of your library or pay 4 life
I don't see why you'd assume it meant "for each card you drew
this turn". Perhaps you haven't noticed, but this implies that if
you drew three cards that turn, under your "interpretation" [one
normal and two with SL] then you'd have to return three cards
with SL. I don't think so!
In fact your interpretation completely ignores the word "two" in
the sentence "put two... cards... on top of your library". It says
"stuff the '2' we'll put back as many as were drawn - no more
and no less".
I find it difficult to see how to generalise this ruling. Putting it
mildly! You seem to be saying that you can replace any
instance of,
"Do X with N things of quality Z"
with
"Do X with all things of quality Z"
Let's just see how this effects a "Half-Library" a card which works
just like a SL but only draws one card:
Half Library text:
You may draw an extra card during your draw phase.
If you do so, put one of the cards drawn this turn back
on top of your library or pay 4 life.
Tom's interpretation:
If you draw a card you must return as many cards (zero, one, two etc)
as you drew this turn back again or lose 4 life each.
That's plain crazy.
If you really want the card to work this way, you'd better errata
it and publish it because NO-ONE I know will believe this
as things stand.
David
Paul Barclay
In article <556425$l...@darkstar.ucsc.edu> aa...@cats.ucsc.edu (Thomas R Wylie)
writes:
>>Is Sylvan Library's effect a phase cost?
>No. It's just an ability/effect.
You meant Phase effect, didn't you. If it's just an ability, you could use it
as many times as you wanted during your draw phase.
Paul Barclay.