Dual Form
henrik isaksson
<pro> is like a freak drive that costs an extra blood.
<PRO> copies the vampire. powerful, but with very big drawback. The burning
clause will keep the muliplying decks from dominating...
/henrik
Damnans
henrik isaksson wrote:
So if its card text reads...
[pro] Untap this vampire. During this minion phase, you may
untap this vampire again.
[PRO] This acting vampire's capacity is reduced by 1. Put
this card in play, tapped. It becomes a non-unique vampire
with the same clan, capacity and Disciplines as the acting
vampire. You may move up to 2 blood from the acting vampire
to this vampire. If either minion leaves the ready region,
the other is burned.
... my question is:
Does the so created vampire also inherit other attributes
such as title, infernal trait, scarce, etc.?
I guess he does not, since those attributes are not
mentioned on the card (unless they are tied to a speciffic
clan: e.g., Blood Cursed - Assamites).
Greetings,
Damnans
--
LSJ
> Does the so created vampire also inherit other attributes
> such as title, infernal trait, scarce, etc.?
>
> I guess he does not, since those attributes are not
> mentioned on the card (unless they are tied to a speciffic
> clan: e.g., Blood Cursed - Assamites).
Correct. Clan, capacity, and Disciplines. It doesn't copy
the sect (instead taking the default for that clan) and
won't copy even pseudo Disciplines like Ian's out-of-clan
special-ability Disciplines.
Note also that the capacity of the acting vampire is
reduced and then the new vampire copies it, so the new
vampire gets the reduced capacity.
--
LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc.
Links to V:TES news, rules, cards, utilities, and tournament calendar:
http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/
geo...@for.auth.gr
this card OUGHT TO BE RARE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
this CARD IS
AWESOME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
(sorry about the many "!", but i am really unable to control myself)
it is certainly, not broken, but it is indeed powerful!!!
my complements to the chef ;)
George
Gregory Stuart Pettigrew
> my complements to the chef ;)
>
Powerfulness should not be what determines rarity. Broad usefulness and
quantity should. Otherwise, Blood Doll and Govern the Unaligned would be
rare. What should determine rarity is how often you would see the card in
play assuming everyone had all the copies they wanted.
Cards you see with a high commonality should be common. These are cards
that everyone will want many of in a couple decks. Uncommons are cards you
want a bunch of in one or two decks, or one or two in a bunch of decks.
Rares are cards you only really want one of every once in a while, or the
focus of an obscure deck strategy.
[pro] is like a preemptive Freak Drive, but more expensive. The increased
cost is reflective of the fact that you can use its untap effect after a
cancelled action like with Kiss of Ra.
[PRO] Dual Form is not broadly useful, it has a tremendous drawback that
not all decks can cope with. It may not even be all that useful for
certain decks, it costs you at least 3 blood to get a minion that can act,
and that minion is now tied to an existing one, which is also tied to it.
geo...@for.auth.gr
i hope this card is common...
<evil grin>
George
henrik isaksson
"Damnans" <damna...@ono.comNOSPAM> wrote in message
news:N6uGd.12939$US....@news.ono.com...
>
>
> henrik isaksson wrote:
>
> > Super cool card.
> >
> > <pro> is like a freak drive that costs an extra blood.
> > <PRO> copies the vampire. powerful, but with very big drawback. The
burning
> > clause will keep the muliplying decks from dominating...
>
> So if its card text reads...
>
> [pro] Untap this vampire. During this minion phase, you may
> untap this vampire again.
> [PRO] This acting vampire's capacity is reduced by 1. Put
> this card in play, tapped. It becomes a non-unique vampire
> with the same clan, capacity and Disciplines as the acting
> vampire. You may move up to 2 blood from the acting vampire
> to this vampire. If either minion leaves the ready region,
> the other is burned.
>
> ... my question is:
Is there anything that stops a vampire from getting 0 capacity with this
card? Would be nice to have two 0-caps that hunts every turn, never gets a
blood and burns if one of them is blocked and hit for one. Maybe too
powerful?
/henrik isaksson
Damnans
henrik isaksson wrote:
[...]
>>So if its card text reads...
>>
>>[pro] Untap this vampire. During this minion phase, you may
>>untap this vampire again.
>>[PRO] This acting vampire's capacity is reduced by 1. Put
>>this card in play, tapped. It becomes a non-unique vampire
>>with the same clan, capacity and Disciplines as the acting
>>vampire. You may move up to 2 blood from the acting vampire
>>to this vampire. If either minion leaves the ready region,
>>the other is burned.
>>
>>... my question is:
>
> My question is:
>
> Is there anything that stops a vampire from getting 0 capacity with this
> card? Would be nice to have two 0-caps that hunts every turn, never gets a
> blood and burns if one of them is blocked and hit for one. Maybe too
> powerful?
This could only happen if the acting vampire is a 1 capacity Gangrel
antitribu with superior Protean and you have the Path of the Feral Heart
in play (to pay 1 less blood to play Dual Form at superior).
There is no such a vampire so far, and you cannot teach someone Protean
without increasing his or her capacity (Sanguine Instruction, Master
Discipline), since there is no equipment granting that discipline at
the moment.
But if the case you describe would ever happen, I would be for getting
either an adequate clarification or a rule addition to the rulebook
stating that a vampire's capacity can never go below 1.
geo...@for.auth.gr
play setites with DOM, put Khobar Towers in play, put 2 protean
skill cards in a minion (preferably high cap) of your prey, mind rape
the minion,
get the minion and play dual form, in your next untap remove the dual
form minion
from the game, gain his capacity in pool and burn your prey's mind
raped minion...
Orpheus
41EA7209...@white-wolf.com...
> Damnans wrote:
> > Does the so created vampire also inherit other attributes
> > such as title, infernal trait, scarce, etc.?
> >
> > I guess he does not
If a Blood Brother gets PRO and uses Dual Form, is the created vamp of the
same circle ? I guess Sterile doesn't prevent from using DF ?
And by the way, if I read correctly, inferior makes you untap twice in the
same turn if you suceed with the action, so it's better than "1 Freak Drive
for 2 blood", more like "2 Freak Drive for a +1 stealth action".
------------------
Orpheus
Orpheus
>
> this card OUGHT TO BE RARE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Doesn't have to be ; but probably will.
> this CARD IS
>
AWESOME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Yes.
> (sorry about the many "!", but i am really unable to control myself)
>
> it is certainly, not broken, but it is indeed powerful!!!
Not broken remains to be seen. Powerful is for sure. I would have liked a
limitation to "above 8" or such.
At least, it doesn't copy special abilities ! Just imagine multiple Karsh
!!!! 8-D
------------
Orpheus
Peter D Bakija
> If a Blood Brother gets PRO and uses Dual Form, is the created vamp of the
> same circle ? I guess Sterile doesn't prevent from using DF ?
I'm unsure if being sterile prevents use of Dual Form (it probably doesn't),
but Dual Form copies clan, capacity, and disciplines. Circle is, much like a
special ability or title, not coppied, I'd gander.
Peter D Bakija
pd...@lightlink.com
http://www.lightlink.com/pdb6
"How does this end?"
"In fire."
Emperor Turhan and Kosh
henrik isaksson
"Damnans" <damna...@ono.comNOSPAM> wrote in message
>
>
> henrik isaksson wrote:
>
> [...]
> >>So if its card text reads...
> >>
> >>[pro] Untap this vampire. During this minion phase, you may
> >>untap this vampire again.
> >>[PRO] This acting vampire's capacity is reduced by 1. Put
> >>this card in play, tapped. It becomes a non-unique vampire
> >>with the same clan, capacity and Disciplines as the acting
> >>vampire. You may move up to 2 blood from the acting vampire
> >>to this vampire. If either minion leaves the ready region,
> >>the other is burned.
> >>
> >>... my question is:
> >
> > My question is:
> >
> > Is there anything that stops a vampire from getting 0 capacity with this
> > card? Would be nice to have two 0-caps that hunts every turn, never gets
a
> > blood and burns if one of them is blocked and hit for one. Maybe too
> > powerful?
>
> This could only happen if the acting vampire is a 1 capacity Gangrel
> antitribu with superior Protean and you have the Path of the Feral Heart
> in play (to pay 1 less blood to play Dual Form at superior).
Or any vampire with ankara citadel. Or Harrock. Or even Harrock, clan
impesronated to !gangrel with path and ankara citadel for style points.
> There is no such a vampire so far, and you cannot teach someone Protean
> without increasing his or her capacity (Sanguine Instruction, Master
> Discipline), since there is no equipment granting that discipline at
> the moment.
Oviously the vampire has played several other dual forms before that. Or
been mind of a childed.
> But if the case you describe would ever happen, I would be for getting
> either an adequate clarification or a rule addition to the rulebook
> stating that a vampire's capacity can never go below 1.
Agreed.
/henrik isaksson
Orpheus
Can't help it, too many thoughts raised by this card (BTW, you work on
sundays you faithless heathens !!! ;-)
> [pro] Untap this vampire. During this minion phase, you may
> untap this vampire again.
> [PRO] This acting vampire's capacity is reduced by 1. Put
> this card in play, tapped. It becomes a non-unique vampire
> with the same clan, capacity and Disciplines as the acting
> vampire. You may move up to 2 blood from the acting vampire
> to this vampire. If either minion leaves the ready region,
> the other is burned.
LSJ, are the following propositions "correct" ?
- Vamp A creates A1. If either leaves the ready region, the other one burns.
- A creates A2. Then, if A goes to torpor, A1 and A2 both go to torpor.
- A1 creates B1. If either leave the ready region, the other goes to torpor
; but A and A2 are unaffected, right ? And in that case, whatever befalls A
or A2 does nothing to B1, whatever happens only to A2 has no effect on
either A1 or B1, right ?
---------------
Orpheus13
henrik isaksson
"Orpheus" <orphe...@ERASERHEADfree.fr> wrote in message
news:41ea8d48$0$18495$626a...@news.free.fr...
no. It's a chain effect. If B1 goes away, so does A1. And if A1 goes away, A
does the same. And if A leaves, A2 does too.
/henrik isaksson
geo...@for.auth.gr
George
geo...@for.auth.gr
you have a !gangrel with 2 cap and sup protean,
you play one dual form and so his capacity is reduced
by 1, next turn you can try to become 0 cap...
BUT... there is a rule that prevents a vampire's capacity
to be reduced below 1... see Viol. Trem. text
George
geo...@for.auth.gr
"- Vamp A creates A1. If either leaves the ready region, the other one
burns."
- A creates A2. Then, if A goes to torpor, A1 and A2 both go to torpor.
no, both are burnt
- A1 creates B1. If either leave the ready region, the other goes to
torpor
no, the other is burnt and thus, A is burnt and thus A2 is also burnt
this means that if you use dual form to create a chain of vampires,
then
if one gets banished (or otherwise leave the ready region), then all of
the
others are burnt. So, it is not wise to use dual form more than once
with
the same vampire or a dual formed vampire.
It is simple, when you play dual form with a vapire, place a counter
of the same color (e.g. yellow) on both, whenever a vampire with a
colored counter plays dual form, add to the dual form vampire a counter
of the same color. So, if Karsh dual forms, then Karsh, his dual form
and
every other vampire created in this way by Karsh or any of the other
dual
forms have a yellow counter.
Then Jalan-Ajav dual forms, so do the same with an orange counter.
So, if a vamp with a colored counter leaves the ready region, then all
the
vamps with a counter of the same color are burnt... a pretty nasty
thing, huh ?
George
Matthew T. Morgan
Right, and they aren't going to torpor, they're being burned as per card
text. If you started with Stanislava, had her Dual Form, then had her do
it again and each Form do it as well, you'd eventually end up with 1024 1
capacity vampires with ANI CEL DOM PRO. Of course, you don't have that
many library cards. Since Dual Form goes into play, you'd max out at 91
vampires (4 and 5 capacity). If any one of those vampires went to torpor,
were burned, Banished, etc, then all 91 one of them would burn.
Matt Morgan
g3n
Two 9 capacity vampire with 6 Superior disciplines.
geo...@for.auth.gr
example, A,A1,A2 and B1
belong to the same chain) leaves the ready region, the rest of the
vampires of that chain are burnt...
simple enough and very nasty, so it is a big risk to create chains that
have more than 2 vampires.
e.g. it is better to play Karsh and Jalan, let each of them dual form
once and kick the hell out of the
table, with your FOR, CEL, POT.
George
geo...@for.auth.gr
in the world :P right ? ;)
Anyway, the wisest thing is to just dual form once with a single
vampire and preferably try to use different clans... e.g. play
Jalan-Ajav,
Karsh and Maxwel. Dual Form once with each one and kill the table.
I am saying this, because there are nasty things that are called
Banishment,
Recalled to the Founder, e.t.c.
Imagine creating a chain with 5 dual forms... then just one Recalled to
the Founder
and your ass, along with all the chained vampires (assuming that you
only have these in play),
are recalled to the Founder...
George
Kevin M.
> My question is:
>
> Is there anything that stops a vampire
> from getting 0 capacity with this card?
Sure.
http://groups-beta.google.com/group/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/msg/d6efea274c91195a
> /henrik isaksson
Kevin M., Prince of Henderson, NV (USA)
"Know your enemy, and know yourself; in one-thousand battles
you shall never be in peril." -- Sun Tzu, *The Art of War*
"Contentment... Complacency... Catastrophe!" -- Joseph Chevalier
geo...@for.auth.gr
> Is there anything that stops a vampire
> from getting 0 capacity with this card?
Sure.
http://groups-beta.google.com/group/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/msg
"
well, there is something else... intelligent thinking... ;)
George
cmb...@purdue.edu
powerful, we'll see, but I suspect it is). Combines well with both
masochism and capitalist when used with a bleeding discipline and the
!gangrel (played virtually for free with blood regained through
bleeding).
I don't think the burn clause makes it very weak at all. It'll take a
bad hand or a very strange vote to burn them off the table...or perhaps
some other effect we'll see as the preview progresses.
cmb
Jeroen Rombouts
<cmb...@purdue.edu> schreef in bericht
news:1105897614.4...@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
> I don't think the burn clause makes it very weak at all. It'll take a
> bad hand or a very strange vote to burn them off the table...or perhaps
> some other effect we'll see as the preview progresses.
>
Jeroen Rombouts
"henrik isaksson" <PLEASEDONTSP...@spray.se> schreef in bericht
news:34vg6lF...@individual.net...
>
> "Damnans" <damna...@ono.comNOSPAM> wrote in message
> news:KGvGd.10299$dr....@news.ono.com...
>
> been mind of a childed.
who cannot play discipline cards like ...hey look... dual form
Matthew T. Morgan
Vampires go to torpor all the time in my group either through regular wear
& tear or (more often) due to being rushed. A few other ways all the Dual
Forms could get burned:
Baltimore Purge sends one of them to torpor. They all burn.
One of them is Banished/Realitied. All the rest burn. I'd expect the one
sent to the uncontrolled region doesn't burn since it's out of play, but
I'm not sure about that.
The original vampire is contested. All the duplicates burn. I suspect
the original vampire is not burned because it's out of play.
Any of the vampires is stolen via Malkavian Dementia, Corruption or Form
of Corruption and has Golconda or Social Ladder played on it.
That Mind Rape/Khobar Towers trick George suggested.
Some of these may be unlikely. Getting rushed is pretty likely, at least
in my experience.
That being said, it looks like a strong card to me. Can't wait to get
one.
Matt Morgan
Emmit Svenson
The capacity reduction could be helpful. There's a lot of 6-caps with
PRO out there you could make into 5-cap Atonement blockers. Badger, for
example. And losing the text on a minion isn't always bad. Spider's
Dual Form can't steal weapons, but he doesn't burn blood after blocks
either.
I like it. I can build my AUS/PRE/PRO decks now. But mostly, this card
is a huge gift to dominate/protean decks.
Daneel
wrote:
Well, you just took an action (Dual Form) for the Untaps. Meaning, there
is little difference between the two interpretations (Like, you take
an action to get two untaps - meaning, you basically gain an untap for
the 2 blood).
--
Bye,
Daneel
Morgan Vening
<orphe...@ERASERHEADfree.fr> wrote:
>>[pro] Untap this vampire. During this minion phase, you may
>>untap this vampire again.
>
>And by the way, if I read correctly, inferior makes you untap twice in the
>same turn if you suceed with the action, so it's better than "1 Freak Drive
>for 2 blood", more like "2 Freak Drive for a +1 stealth action".
According to that wording, no, it's only 1. You use an action to Dual
Form. You untap. You do another action (Action 1). You untap (Dual
Form bonus). You do another action (Action 2).
Using Freak Drives, you do Action 1. FD to untap. Do action 2.
Same net effect (+1 Action).
Morgan Vening
Daneel
wrote:
> So if its card text reads...
>
> [pro] Untap this vampire. During this minion phase, you may
> untap this vampire again.
> [PRO] This acting vampire's capacity is reduced by 1. Put
> this card in play, tapped. It becomes a non-unique vampire
> with the same clan, capacity and Disciplines as the acting
> vampire. You may move up to 2 blood from the acting vampire
> to this vampire. If either minion leaves the ready region,
> the other is burned.
My question is:
Clan. If the vampire is under a clan changing effect (Clan
Impersonation, Quadir's special) is the clone of the original
or the new clan? With other words, does it copy the vampire's
clan, or the crypt card's clan?
Capacity. Same question: if the acting vampire's capacity is
subject to an altering effect (has been hit by Violettremaine
for 2+, has a discipline card on hime or her, is subject to
the Wormwood card in play), which capacity is considered?
Disciplines. Okay, I'm not too novel. Master: Discipline cards,
Sanguine Instruction, Sargon Fragment. Is it the vampire or
the crypt card?
--
Bye,
Daneel
geo...@for.auth.gr
curent clan
capacity: the current capacity of the vampire
disciplines:master: disciplines cards count, sanguine
instruction yes, about sargon fragment i am not sure,
but i would say yes, as it says "the vampire with this
eq. HAS...", so it copies the curent disciplines that
the vampire HAS. So, Ian's ability and similar effects
(like infernal pact) that allow a vamp to play cards of
a certain discipline, without having the discipline, are
not copied.
George
LSJ
> "Orpheus" <orphe...@ERASERHEADfree.fr> wrote in message
>>
>>- Vamp A creates A1. If either leaves the ready region, the other one burns.
>>- A creates A2. Then, if A goes to torpor, A1 and A2 both go to torpor.
No. If A goes to torpor, A1 and A2 burn.
>>- A1 creates B1. If either leave the ready region, the other goes to torpor
>>; but A and A2 are unaffected, right ? And in that case, whatever befalls A
>>or A2 does nothing to B1, whatever happens only to A2 has no effect on
>>either A1 or B1, right ?
>
> no. It's a chain effect. If B1 goes away, so does A1. And if A1 goes away, A
> does the same. And if A leaves, A2 does too.
Correct. The first to fall to torpor falls to torpor. The rest are burned
(either in direct relation to the one falling into torpor, or as part of
a chain from that one).
--
LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc.
Links to V:TES news, rules, cards, utilities, and tournament calendar:
http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/
LSJ
Orpheus
1105905018....@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
> Dual Form, eh? Now we know what happened to Camille Deverox, the Raven.
Well seen.
> The capacity reduction could be helpful. There's a lot of 6-caps with
> PRO out there you could make into 5-cap Atonement blockers. Badger, for
> example. And losing the text on a minion isn't always bad. Spider's
> Dual Form can't steal weapons, but he doesn't burn blood after blocks
> either.
>
> I like it. I can build my AUS/PRE/PRO decks now. But mostly, this card
> is a huge gift to dominate/protean decks.
Yes. Ot the Tha / Pro decks. So much for the "no perfect crypt" argument of
the grouping (at least where Gangrels are concerned).
------------------
Orpheus
Daneel
> geo...@for.auth.gr wrote:
>
>> clan: i guess that clan impersonation effects apply, it copies the
>> curent clan
>>
>> capacity: the current capacity of the vampire
>>
>> disciplines:master: disciplines cards count, sanguine
>> instruction yes, about sargon fragment i am not sure,
>> but i would say yes, as it says "the vampire with this
>> eq. HAS...", so it copies the curent disciplines that
>> the vampire HAS. So, Ian's ability and similar effects
>> (like infernal pact) that allow a vamp to play cards of
>> a certain discipline, without having the discipline, are
>> not copied.
>
> Correct. Current clan, capacity, and Disicplines.
Omnimegaüberbrutal. I'm curious when errata is due... ;)
Really. This can be used as basically a Protean-based Soul
Gem, except you are not dependent upon the hazards of crypt
shuffling.
Also, it makes some interesting combos by equipping with the
likes of Drum of Xipe Totec, Veneficorum Artum Sanguis,
Sargon Fragment, Hand of Conrad, Changeling Skin Mask, Seal
of Veddartha and then creating a clone vampire with disciplines
CEL DOM FOR NEC OBF POT THA. Then passing the equipment around
and having another guy with PRO create another 6-cap with 8+
superiors. Well, maybe not all 8, but some of them.
I think this card is really powerful.
--
Bye,
Daneel
Smiling Tom
"LSJ" <vte...@white-wolf.com> escribió en el mensaje
news:41EB1399...@white-wolf.com...
> henrik isaksson wrote:
> > "Orpheus" <orphe...@ERASERHEADfree.fr> wrote in message
> >>LSJ, are the following propositions "correct" ?
> >>
> >>- Vamp A creates A1. If either leaves the ready region, the other one
burns.
> >>- A creates A2. Then, if A goes to torpor, A1 and A2 both go to torpor.
>
> No. If A goes to torpor, A1 and A2 burn.
>
> >>- A1 creates B1. If either leave the ready region, the other goes to
torpor
> >>; but A and A2 are unaffected, right ? And in that case, whatever
befalls A
> >>or A2 does nothing to B1, whatever happens only to A2 has no effect on
> >>either A1 or B1, right ?
> >
> > no. It's a chain effect. If B1 goes away, so does A1. And if A1 goes
away, A
> > does the same. And if A leaves, A2 does too.
>
> Correct. The first to fall to torpor falls to torpor. The rest are burned
> (either in direct relation to the one falling into torpor, or as part of
> a chain from that one).
>
Vamp A clones himself. Someone plays banishment on Dolly. A burns. Does
Dolly come into play in the following influence phase?
geo...@for.auth.gr
you create a chain of 5+ super-cloned vampires.
And then, here comes a Baltimore Purge, Sacrifice,
Protect Thine Own, Banishment, Recalled to the Founder,
Sleep of Reason, Reality, e.t.c. or a pissed-off Brujah and
your whole chain of vampires gets toasted.
So, you are screwed and you might even lose a lot of pool
if there is a Tension in the Game.
Bottom line, Dual Form might seem really powerful, but indeed
is very well balanced. I congratulate LSJ and the rest of developers
(if any, i don't know) for this card.
Think this, if you create a chain of 3 vampires (2 dual forms + the
original), then when you put the 2nd Dual Form in play it will be
tapped
and only have 2 blood at max (most of cases).
So, you can understand how much vulnerable the whole chain is.
if somehow they manage to bring it down (and don't tell me that
you will manage to survive a Haven uncovered and multiple rushes)
then you are screwed...
When i find some time, l will post a thread with my ideas on dual form.
(one of these is to use Dual Form to copy unique disciplines, like
Temporis and finaly be able to play a Temporis+something deck to
have fun playing this great discipline. Lapse rules!!!
or use some Salubri to Renew the Vigor of the Dual Forms, e.t.c.)
George
geo...@for.auth.gr
what would be interesting to know is the following:
the dolly comes into play and then you possess back the
original burned vampire.
does Dual Form remember that the dolly is tied to it ?
(what i am pretty sure of is that the possessed vampire
will have his original capacity, not the reduced one)
so, if the dolly leaves the ready region, will the possessed
vampire burn again ?
George
LSJ
> And what about Banishment/reality??
>
> Vamp A clones himself. Someone plays banishment on Dolly. A burns. Does
> Dolly come into play in the following influence phase?
?
Dolly comes out whenever Dolly is influenced out, yes.
(Assuming you mean Dolly is the Dual Form of Vamp A, of course).
geo...@for.auth.gr
does it come back having his original capacity and not
the reduced one ? (i would say yes)
is the tie between the dolly (dual formed vampire) and the
possessed vampire active again ? (i would say yes, again
but i am not sure)
George
Curevei
>you create a chain of 5+ super-cloned vampires.
>
>And then, here comes a Baltimore Purge, Sacrifice,
>Protect Thine Own, Banishment, Recalled to the Founder,
>Sleep of Reason, Reality, e.t.c. or a pissed-off Brujah and
>your whole chain of vampires gets toasted.
What if none of these happen? Isn't your army of superembraces kind of
powerful?
Sure, there's the attention you draw when putting out a bunch of Ilianas for 2
blood that might get the table to try to gang up on you, but that's not really
a sign of balance.
>So, you are screwed and you might even lose a lot of pool
>if there is a Tension in the Game.
Tension *is* removable, assuming it's in the game at all. But, whatever,
losing a pool to have an Embrace with a bunch of disciplines for a while is
probably not the end of the world.
>Bottom line, Dual Form might seem really powerful, but indeed
>is very well balanced. I congratulate LSJ and the rest of developers
>(if any, i don't know) for this card.
>
>Think this, if you create a chain of 3 vampires (2 dual forms + the
>original), then when you put the 2nd Dual Form in play it will be
>tapped
>and only have 2 blood at max (most of cases).
>
>So, you can understand how much vulnerable the whole chain is.
>if somehow they manage to bring it down (and don't tell me that
>you will manage to survive a Haven uncovered and multiple rushes)
>then you are screwed...
I see the great difficulty surviving combat with superior Protean, true.
geo...@for.auth.gr
powerful?"
believing that none of these will happen is not realistic. even a mild
bruise
deck can find the right moment to bring down your dual form chain.
"Tension *is* removable, assuming it's in the game at all. But,
whatever,
losing a pool to have an Embrace with a bunch of disciplines for a
while is
probably not the end of the world."
Well, this is no embrace and you know that. The drawback is serious.
"I see the great difficulty surviving combat with superior Protean,
true"
What do you think will happen, if you create a chain of 3+ dual forms
and
your predator puts a haven uncovered on your newly created dual form
which
will have only 2 blood (normaly). I'll tell you what will happen,
you'll get about
3-6+ (depending on circumstances) entering combat attempts at a default
of
+1 stealth. I don't think that your superior protean will get you
through this.
Additionaly, while trying to bring your 3rd dual form you could easily
be intercepted
and sent into torpor e.g. by a Rotschreck. Your sup protean would not
get you
through this.
What i am saying is, that while you invest transfers, actions, blood
and cards in creating dual
forms, all of your efforts can crumble with a single action, e.g.
banishment. So, setting
up multiple dual forms and effectively protecting them is not an easy
task.
Even if you build your deck in such a way to protect the dual forms
from leaving the
ready region, thus expend card slots, actions, blood-pool resources,
the nature of the
drawback will remain the same and the danger will increase with every
new dual form that
is added in the chain. Your efforts of protecting your Dual Form chain
can reduce the risk
of losing all the dual form chain (including your original vampire) but
the danger will still be high.
What i am really saying is that building a deck to create big dual form
chains is not the best
idea in the world and not a worthwhile risk.
If i was to create a dual form deck, i would only bring one dual form
with the same vampire,
i would use mid-high caps, include ways to counter nasty referendums
(like banishment, PTO)
and also include ways to escape combat alltogether (S:CE, alpha glint).
Additionaly some change
of Target might have proven very usefull.
As you can easily understand, a deck focused on Dual Form needs a lot
of defensive stuff and it is
not easy to overpower the table using Dual Forms, because of the nature
of the drawback that can
leave you vampireless in no time.
Personaly, i would use Dual Form to copy vampires with unique bloodline
disciplines, like Temporis
and thus be able to play e.g a Nu deck. For now, i leave the efforts of
exploiting Dual Form's power to
you, while i am designing my Nu fun deck.
Right now, Dual Form seems very powerful, as some people choose to take
into account only the benefits
and don't want to consider how big the drawback is, underestimating it.
This might lead people to prematurely
start complaining about Dual Form and forget all about PTO, but when
the set is released and dual form is put
into practice, i am sure that you will all understand that while it is
a very good card it is still a balanced one.
George
Smiling Tom
> Smiling Tom wrote:
> > And what about Banishment/reality??
> >
> > Vamp A clones himself. Someone plays banishment on Dolly. A burns. Does
> > Dolly come into play in the following influence phase?
>
> ?
> Dolly comes out whenever Dolly is influenced out, yes.
I ment under the same rules as an embrace beeing target of banishment.
Clarified, ok.
>
> (Assuming you mean Dolly is the Dual Form of Vamp A, of course).
>
http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?articleID=0009B07D-BD40-1C59-B882809EC588ED
9F
It was the first I thought of when I read about a gangrel being cloned. ;-)
Raille
leaving the ready region would also kick in the effect of Dual form and
burn A.
That is A starts an effect that loops back to him by the card text,
burning all the vampires involved.
Or is the original creater (in this case A) immune to the burn effects,
and just the created vampire(s) suffer from such painful effects?
Raille
LSJ
> It would seem that if A goes to torpor the card effect of A1 and or A2
> leaving the ready region would also kick in the effect of Dual form and
> burn A.
No. A's going to torpor kills A1. That's it for the A-A1 pair.
Likewise A2 (from A or A1, whichever applies in your context).
> That is A starts an effect that loops back to him by the card text,
> burning all the vampires involved.
No loop back.
http://groups-beta.google.com/group/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/msg/e3080fed836368b7
James Coupe
<orphe...@ERASERHEADfree.fr> writes:
>Yes. Ot the Tha / Pro decks. So much for the "no perfect crypt" argument of
>the grouping (at least where Gangrels are concerned).
Well, the Gangrel do get this and Gather, which seems unusual though not
overly concerning.
However, Dual Form does seem quite well done. It's an action, 2 blood,
and provides a major problem - you need to defend both vampires, because
if one dies, the other dies. (Mostly.) Also, the reduced capacity
keeps bringing you into the target range of Banishment etc. - so even if
you can defend in combat, and get the action through, and don't get DI-
ed[0], you can still get screwed that way.
I certainly think it's a good card, but the only real thing that can't
have a good chance at annoying it is probably vanilla stealth-bleed.
[0] A good target for a DI, I feel, if the deck is playing careful card
ratios based on what it expects to get out.
--
James Coupe
PGP Key: 0x5D623D5D Who's ever heard of that, though!
EBD690ECD7A1FB457CA2 Designing a deck that just calls votes.
13D7E668C3695D623D5D That's crazy talk, there.
John Flournoy
James Coupe wrote:
>
> I certainly think it's a good card, but the only real thing that
can't
> have a good chance at annoying it is probably vanilla stealth-bleed.
And, of course, vanilla stealth bleed generally won't care that you
brought out another minion in and of itself; one more minion that
starts at 0 intercept won't make a direct difference to a stealth bleed
deck.
(Of course, if you start using Dual Form as part of a bigger strategy
to foil stealth-bleed, that's a different matter.)
> James Coupe
-John Flournoy
Gregory Stuart Pettigrew
> > leaving the ready region would also kick in the effect of Dual form and
> > burn A.
>
> No. A's going to torpor kills A1. That's it for the A-A1 pair.
> Likewise A2 (from A or A1, whichever applies in your context).
>
I think the thing people are missing is that when A1 is burned, there is
no more "either minion."
David Cherryholmes
> Christopher Houghton anybody?...
> Two 9 capacity vampire with 6 Superior disciplines.
>
I prefer the idea of bolting on 4 copies of Dual Form to a Rachel
Brandywine/MN/Homonculus deck. Although it requires an extra moving
part, Heidleburg Castle, launch would look something like this:
1) Get 2 Homonculii on Rachel, which isn't hard considering you want to
play a lot of them.
2) Drop the MN. Embrace being the bad guy.
3) Dual Form
4) Heidleburg over the spare Homonc and some blood.
5) Untap during your prey's untap phase
6) Embrace being two bad guys.
--
David Cherryholmes
geo...@for.auth.gr
give it a try.
in some hours we'll find out if Dual Form is R or C.
i believe it will be common, but we'll see.
George
David Cherryholmes
Well do you see any particular power in a Rachel Brandywine deck?
Because I just forked it, at very low cost.
--
David Cherryholmes