LSJ: Epiphany, Anarch convert and Tegyrius
Blooded Sand
Teggie anarch.
Next turn Teggie plays Epiphany, and merges.
Is he Cam or Anarch?
If he is Anarch, does he regain his justicar title when he takes his
special action to gain an allegiance counter?
The Lasombra
>I control Tegyrius basic. I transfer out Anarch Convert, make
>Teggie anarch. Next turn Teggie plays Epiphany, and merges.
>Is he Cam or Anarch?
Camarilla Justicar.
"The advancement card applies in full."
Rule book 1.5.6
http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/rulebook/
"When merged, the text on the base card still applies, but the rest of
the card is ignored (capacity, Disciplines, etc.). The advancement
card applies in full. If the advancement card conflicts with the base
card (a different sect, for example), the advancement card has
precedence. "
Tegyrius, Vizier (see non-Advanced)
[AUS] [CEL] [FOR] [PRE] [QUI]
[Assamite] Assamite
Capacity: 9
Group: 2
Advanced, Camarilla: While Tegyrius is ready, each Camarilla Assamite
may burn 1 blood to gain 1 vote once each referendum. (Blood Cursed)
[MERGED] Assamite Justicar.
Artist(s): Quinton Hoover
Set(s): Anarchs:U2
Blooded Sand
Uh huh. however, the advancement card is not arguing with or
contradicting the basic
It's arguing with the sect given by the anarch convert...
Anarch Convert
Clan: Caitiff (group 0)
Capacity: 1
Powers (Disciplines):
Independent. Anarch: When the convert enters play, you may remove him
from the game to make a non-titled vampire you control anarch and
either gain 1 pool or draw a card from your crypt.
Juggernaut1981
>
> - Show quoted text -
Yes it does. The Base Card now reads: Independent Anarch. The Anarch
Convert doesn't stay in play, it "ghost edits" the base Tygerius and
then leaves play.
So in sequence:
Tygerius Basic enters play (with his normal Sect & text).
Anarch Convert enters play, edits Tygerius Basic so he is an
Independent Anarch.
Then Tygerius ADV enters play, sees Tygerius Basic and replaces him
becoming the Camarilla Assamite Justicar.
Blooded Sand
excellent, so i can use anarch converts to speed teggie crypt out,
then merge and he becomes justicar? sweet
Suppose same holds for tariq, right? merged is black hand sabbat
The Lasombra
>excellent, so i can use anarch converts to speed teggie crypt out,
>then merge and he becomes justicar? sweet
>Suppose same holds for tariq, right? merged is black hand sabbat
"The advancement card applies in full."
Rule book 1.5.6
http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/rulebook/
Tariq, The Silent
[cel] [AUS] [FOR] [OBF] [QUI]
[Assamite] Assamite
Capacity: 7
Group: 2
Advanced, Sabbat. Black Hand. Red List: Tariq's capacity is reduced by
4 while he is controlled. He may steal 1 blood as a ranged strike. The
Blood Curse does not affect Tariq.
[MERGED] Independent: Tariq's capacity is not reduced by his card
text.
Artist(s): Steve Eidson
Set(s): KMW:U
Juggernaut1981
Blooded: using the card text the Lasombra has so generously
provided...
Tariq Basic is whatever Tariq Basic usually is (can't remember, can't
be stuffed finding out as it won't matter).
Anarch Convert arrives and rewrites Tariq Basic to be: Independant
Anarch.
Tariq ADV is brought out, sees Tariq Basic and Tariq becomes an
Independent vampire (losing his Anarch status and never is a Sabbat
Black Hand because of the merging rules), regains his full capacity,
may steal 1 blood as a strike and is not Blood Cursed.
Chris Berger
I'm pretty sure that most of that is incorrect. He is Black Hand,
because the advancement card applies in full, and Black Hand is not
tied to sect. He should also be Anarch, because Anarch is not a sect,
and he only loses that if he becomes not Independent. Since the
merged version *is* independent, he should be an Independent Anarch
Black Hand.
Juggernaut1981
>
> - Show quoted text -
I'm pretty sure you will lose the Black Hand (I would be surprised if
you could be a member of the Secretive Sabbat Black Hand and not be a
Sabbat member).
I would want a ruling before saying Tariq would keep his Anarch-ness
post-merging...
XZealot
James Coupe
>I'm pretty sure you will lose the Black Hand (I would be surprised if
>you could be a member of the Secretive Sabbat Black Hand and not be a
>Sabbat member).
Incorrect.
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/msg/a988b5bdf3fbba15
****
> Black Hand status is not tied to sect. Merged Tariq is and
> Independent member of the Black Hand.
Correct.
Tariq Merged:
Independent, Black Hand, Red List, Assamite, 7 capacity, with cel AUS FOR OBF
QUI, who can rush, who can steal 1 blood as a ranged strike, on whom blood hunts
may not be called, and who is unaffected by the blood curse.
****
Note that Black Hand status granted by *library cards* is sometimes tied
to sect (e.g. "The Sabbat vampire with this card is..."). However, a
vampire who is printed as Black Hand who acquires a Writ of Acceptance
is Camarilla and Black Hand, no problems.
>I would want a ruling before saying Tariq would keep his Anarch-ness
>post-merging...
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/msg/a69418066309ef28
****
> LSJ, does a base Tariq (Independant), who goes Anarch, the Merges,
> change to Sabbat Black Hand, then return to Independant, retain his
> Anarch status? Or is the Merge instantly applied?
Tariq Base : Indy
Tariq Merged : Indy
-> Tariq Base in play merged with Tariq Adv from uncontrolled region doesn't
change sect.
****
i.e. Tariq stays Independent, so there's no reason for him to lose an
acquired Anarch trait.
--
James Coupe
PGP Key: 0x5D623D5D YOU ARE IN ERROR.
EBD690ECD7A1FB457CA2 NO-ONE IS SCREAMING.
13D7E668C3695D623D5D THANK YOU FOR YOUR COOPERATION.
Juggernaut1981
> i.e. Tariq stays Independent, so there's no reason for him to lose an
> acquired Anarch trait.
Sure there is, there is a contradiction between his base and merged
text. That's all I'm thinking is that his now "reduced" Indy-Only
status may eliminate his previous Indy-Anarch status.
I agree that Tariq Basic = Indy, Tariq Merged = Indy but I am not sure
if Tariq Basic = Indy-Anarch will mean Tariq Merged = Indy Anarch
(since his card text on the NEW card does not include his Anarch-ness)
James Coupe
>>
>> i.e. Tariq stays Independent, so there's no reason for him to lose an
>> acquired Anarch trait.
>
>Sure there is,
No there isn't.
> there is a contradiction between his base and merged
>text.
No there isn't.
>That's all I'm thinking is that his now "reduced" Indy-Only
>status may eliminate his previous Indy-Anarch status.
No, it simply doesn't specify anything about him being an Anarch.
Similarly, take a vampire whose base version says "Camarilla" and whose
merged version says "Camarilla". They gain a title as the base version
- say, Prince of Houston. They merge. They don't lose the title
they've gained, even though you could pretend the merged version says
"Camarilla and emphatically not titled - yield now".
In the real world, it simply doesn't specify what it is, so the title is
left alone. If the Merged version had a different title, that would
take precedence (because the vampire would 'gain' that title and yield
their old one).
Note that:
****
The merging itself won't clobber any existing effect, no. If the
merging doesn't grant a new title, then there's no effect that will
clobber the existing title (although the merge might change the
vampire's sect, sending the title into remission for a while).
****
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/msg/f82a7469360c42fd
That is, unless the advanced/merged text explicitly over-rides an
existing effect, existing effects that are compatible with the vampire's
new state aren't "clobbered".
squidalot
>
> That is, unless the advanced/merged text explicitly over-rides an
> existing effect, existing effects that are compatible with the vampire's
> new state aren't "clobbered".
>
> --
> James Coupe
> PGP Key: 0x5D623D5D YOU ARE IN ERROR.
> EBD690ECD7A1FB457CA2 NO-ONE IS SCREAMING.
> 13D7E668C3695D623D5D THANK YOU FOR YOUR COOPERATION.
Very neat answer there.
Blooded Sand
> On Jul 6, 7:56 am, James Coupe <ja...@zephyr.org.uk> wrote:
Thanks for the neat lay out clarification all, especialy James.
So to encapsulate, basic Tariq, Anarch merges, ends up being an
independent, Anarch, Black Hand vampire, correct?
James Coupe
>So to encapsulate, basic Tariq, Anarch merges, ends up being an
>independent, Anarch, Black Hand vampire, correct?
Yes.
Tariq (basic) becomes an Anarch somehow. Merge with Advanced Tariq, you
get Independent, Anarch, Black Hand Tariq.
If Tariq (basic) had - for some reason - become Liaison through Rise of
the Nephtali, you could get Independent, Anarch, Black Hand, Liaison
Tariq.
(He could become Liaison after merging too, but the point is that he
keeps the title when merging - he doesn't forcibly become untitled.)
Oko
Mmh. Take a minute to think of the possibilities, then realize you
only have 90 card library. Such waste.
Blooded Sand
Well there is always ashur's tablets....