Ruling Q for LSJ
Kerravon
During any Methuselah's minion phase, you may burn the Edge to untap Torvus.
Can Torvus untap multiple times in a turn by burning the Edge mutliple
times?
Kerravon
James Coupe
No. "During <X>, do <Y>" restricts you to doing <Y> *once* during X.
--
James Coupe
PGP Key: 0x5D623D5D
Lucky that my breasts are small and humble, EBD690ECD7A1FB457CA2
So you don't confuse them with mountains. 13D7E668C3695D623D5D
LSJ
>>During any Methuselah's minion phase, you may burn the Edge to untap Torvus.
>>Can Torvus untap multiple times in a turn by burning the Edge mutliple
>>times?
> No. "During <X>, do <Y>" restricts you to doing <Y> *once* during X.
Correct.
--
LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc.
Links to V:TES news, rules, cards, utilities, and tournament calendar:
http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/
LSJ
>>>No. "During <X>, do <Y>" restricts you to doing <Y> *once* during X.
>>
>>Correct.
>
>
> "During <X>, do <Y>" restricts you to doing <Y> *once* during X"
More precisely, "During phase X, do Y" limits Y to once *per* phase X.
> X="any methuselahs's minion phase".
>
> This could; IMO, be interpretated as once during all methusaleh's minion phases (once from start if
> your turn 'til the start of the next), or once during each methusalehs minion phase each round, or
> once in the game during any methusalehs minion phase... If the "During <X>, do <Y>" restricts you to
> doing <Y> *once* during X" rule is complete as quoted that is... perhaps there should be added:
> "During <X>, do <Y>" restricts you to doing <Y> *once* during X each turn".
It can be interpretted as "once per minion phase (of any Methuselah)", which it is.
Kerravon
ie "Once per turn during any Methuselah's minion phase, you may burn the
Edge to untap Torvus."
The reason I ask is I was untapping Torvus multiple times in the presence of
two rules umpires and both said it was ok after reading the card.
Reading the card alone or the rulebook alone I have no indication that I can
only use Torvus's special once.
The whole "During phase X, do Y" limits Y to once *per* phase X." is not
only vague it's not in the rulebook.
Three words added to the card would make it easy to understand.
Another Q
Maris Streck
Maris can burn a blood to give a blocking minion +1 intercept.
Can I do this multiple times?
Kerravon
"LSJ" <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote in message
news:3EDC961B...@white-wolf.com...
LSJ
> Why is this not printed on the card?
> ie "Once per turn during any Methuselah's minion phase, you may burn the
> Edge to untap Torvus."
> The reason I ask is I was untapping Torvus multiple times in the presence of
> two rules umpires and both said it was ok after reading the card.
The template has served since 1994 (cf. Hunting Grounds and Powerbases).
> Reading the card alone or the rulebook alone I have no indication that I can
> only use Torvus's special once.
And hunting grounds and powerbases? Have you also labored under the absence of
any indication that they can only be used once? If not, why the difference?
> The whole "During phase X, do Y" limits Y to once *per* phase X." is not
> only vague it's not in the rulebook.
English doesn't need to be in the rulebook. English is assumed to mean what it
means in the absence of an overriding definition in the rulebook.
"During your lunch break, you may make one personal call on the company phone."
Now, are you allowed to make a personal call and then, during the same lunch
break, make another on the same company phone?
> Three words added to the card would make it easy to understand.
Card text space on crypt cards is usually at a premium. And, since the template
has served since 1994, ...
> Another Q
>
> Maris Streck
> Maris can burn a blood to give a blocking minion +1 intercept.
> Can I do this multiple times?
Yes.
[snip bottom-quoted quote]
Joshua Duffin
> Kerravon wrote:
> > Why is this not printed on the card?
> > ie "Once per turn during any Methuselah's minion phase, you may burn the
> > Edge to untap Torvus."
> > The reason I ask is I was untapping Torvus multiple times in the presence
of
> > two rules umpires and both said it was ok after reading the card.
>
> The template has served since 1994 (cf. Hunting Grounds and Powerbases).
The "during X do Y means once" template has never been truly
satisfactory, though.
The enduring recurrence of people asking about cards written
with it seems to me like pretty good evidence that the rule
is not as intuitive as we'd like it to be.
Sure, space is at a premium on most cards, but "once each"
in place of "during X phase" would be a very minimal increase
(if any) in text used and would produce unambiguous clarity
for a lot of readers that aren't finding that clarity in the
"during X do Y" phrasing.
Josh
looking for a few good words
LSJ
> "LSJ" <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote in message
> news:3EDCD57E...@white-wolf.com...
>
>>Kerravon wrote:
>>
>>>Why is this not printed on the card?
>>>ie "Once per turn during any Methuselah's minion phase, you may burn the
>>>Edge to untap Torvus."
>>>The reason I ask is I was untapping Torvus multiple times in the presence
> of
>
>>>two rules umpires and both said it was ok after reading the card.
>>The template has served since 1994 (cf. Hunting Grounds and Powerbases).
>
> The "during X do Y means once" template has never been truly
> satisfactory, though.
> The enduring recurrence of people asking about cards written
> with it seems to me like pretty good evidence that the rule
> is not as intuitive as we'd like it to be.
You mean like the enduring recurrence of people asking about
whether Skin of Rock can be used to prevent aggravated damage
indicates that "Prevent 1 damage" is not as intuitive as
we'd like it to be?
I'll grant you that it could be made clearer with more text
(like most card texts can be).
But the enduring recurrence of questions test is a bit too broad,
given the questions I see. :-)
> Sure, space is at a premium on most cards, but "once each"
> in place of "during X phase" would be a very minimal increase
> (if any) in text used and would produce unambiguous clarity
> for a lot of readers that aren't finding that clarity in the
> "during X do Y" phrasing.
OK. I'll adopt the "once each" phrasing whenever possible.
Unambiguous clarity is a nice goal. Given the Skin of Rock
examples, however, I'm not sure it is attainable. :-)
LSJ
> Joshua Duffin wrote:
>> Sure, space is at a premium on most cards, but "once each"
>> in place of "during X phase" would be a very minimal increase
>> (if any) in text used and would produce unambiguous clarity
>> for a lot of readers that aren't finding that clarity in the
>> "during X do Y" phrasing.
> OK. I'll adopt the "once each" phrasing whenever possible.
Hmm. I was just going through the card list making the substitutions,
and it is generally pretty awkward and stilted (unless the change
actually alters the meaning) after the change. Seems like I had gone
down that route before and reached the same end then as well.
If anyone wants to give it a go, just take the text file from the
web page and mark up every occurence of "during" to see what I
mean.
Joshua Duffin
> LSJ wrote:
> > Joshua Duffin wrote:
> >> Sure, space is at a premium on most cards, but "once each"
> >> in place of "during X phase" would be a very minimal increase
> >> (if any) in text used and would produce unambiguous clarity
> >> for a lot of readers that aren't finding that clarity in the
> >> "during X do Y" phrasing.
> >
> > OK. I'll adopt the "once each" phrasing whenever possible.
>
> Hmm. I was just going through the card list making the substitutions,
> and it is generally pretty awkward and stilted (unless the change
> actually alters the meaning) after the change. Seems like I had gone
> down that route before and reached the same end then as well.
>
> If anyone wants to give it a go, just take the text file from the
> web page and mark up every occurence of "during" to see what I
> mean.
How far down do you go before finding cards becoming awkward?
It seems to work reasonably well for me, if I replace "During your
X phase" with "Once each of your X phases". At least, this reads
OK for me on Hunting Grounds.
For vampire abilities written "if Foo is ready during your X
phase," I like "if Foo is ready, once each of your X phases,".
Still, you're right that it takes some effort to go through and
determine which cards that use "during" would need altering and
what the best way to include "once" would be. I'd be happy
enough if future cards were simply written to use a "once"
phrasing instead of relying on the "during X do Y means once"
rule. :-)
btw - the timestamping on your messages seems to have you
posting from tomorrow for some reason. Did you cross the
international date line? :-)
Josh
international man of rulings!
LSJ
> btw - the timestamping on your messages seems to have you
> posting from tomorrow for some reason. Did you cross the
> international date line? :-)
Yeah. I just noticed (and fixed) that a little while ago.
New OS on my machine -> the installing person (not me) left
the MS default of Pacific Standard Time.
Result: I'm 3 hours ahead. (This was last Thursday).
I notice the problem and correct it.
But I fail to notice that the time had also been set 12 hours
ahead (pm instead of am). So I had only moved myself from 15 hours
ahead to 12 hours ahead by the previous fix.
Unfortunately, I notice this error in the pm (when the clock reads
am), so by fixing only that (changing it to pm) without confirming
the date a second time, I move it 12 hours further into the future.
Blech.
I should be OK now, though, right?
CurtAdams
>> OK. I'll adopt the "once each" phrasing whenever possible.
>Hmm. I was just going through the card list making the substitutions,
>and it is generally pretty awkward and stilted (unless the change
>actually alters the meaning) after the change. Seems like I had gone
>down that route before and reached the same end then as well.
You could put the templates, or at least the major ones, in the
rulebook. Since the templates are, in some cases, essential
to unambiguous interpretation, I think that's appropriate. People
should be able to play solely from cards and rules.
Curt Adams (curt...@aol.com)
"It is better to be wrong than to be vague" - Freeman Dyson
LSJ
>>
>>Hmm. I was just going through the card list making the substitutions,
>>and it is generally pretty awkward and stilted (unless the change
>>actually alters the meaning) after the change. Seems like I had gone
>>down that route before and reached the same end then as well.
>>
>>If anyone wants to give it a go, just take the text file from the
>>web page and mark up every occurence of "during" to see what I
>>mean.
>
> How far down do you go before finding cards becoming awkward?
I didn't get out of the A's.
> It seems to work reasonably well for me, if I replace "During your
> X phase" with "Once each of your X phases". At least, this reads
> OK for me on Hunting Grounds.
"Once each of" has the unfortunate property that it can easily be
misread as "When it becomes true that each of", so that reading
needs to be eliminated as early in the sentence as possible.
As in "Once during each of" or "Once in" or "During".
"Once in" begins to look like "At the start of", so that's not
a clean "fix".
> For vampire abilities written "if Foo is ready during your X
> phase," I like "if Foo is ready, once each of your X phases,".
"Once during each of your X phases, if Foo is ready, ..." is
clearer.
> Still, you're right that it takes some effort to go through and
> determine which cards that use "during" would need altering and
> what the best way to include "once" would be. I'd be happy
> enough if future cards were simply written to use a "once"
> phrasing instead of relying on the "during X do Y means once"
> rule. :-)
It seems to be clearly better for instances when it really is "each"
and not just "each of your". "Once each minion phase, ...". But
those cases are few.
Timlagor
does that language differ? ;-D
Presumably Maris Streck is once per Block attempt though?
Hunting Grounds would not be limitted in other way, and have no
associated cost. The difference is "burn a blood to" which both limits
the number of times you can do something and associates a cost with
the action.
Can't "during phase Y" be changed to "once during each phase Y".
The primary distinction (to my mind) between this and the Skin of Rock
question is that the rulebook clearly states that there are 2
differences between aggravated and normal damage: no healing and can
burn a vampire. It also states explicitly that damage prevention can
be used on aggravated damage before normal damage at the discretion of
the owner of the vampire taking the damage. There is no reason to
believe that Skin can't be used on agg dmg.
Similarly there is no rule saying that a non-action effect can't be
used more than once in a turn. In particular I've never heard anynoe
suggest that reaction and action modifiers can't be used multiple
times on the same action (barring card text e.g. on most bleed
modifiers).
Once per turn is certainly the more reasonable interpretation BUT when
the dispute arises there will always be someone with a vested interest
in the other perfectly arguable position.
One is a newbie question -the other genuinely needs clarification ;)
CurtAdams
>English doesn't need to be in the rulebook.
>English is assumed to mean what it
>means in the absence of an overriding definition in the rulebook.
>"During your lunch break, you may make one personal call on the >company
phone."
That has "one" in it. These types of cards don't always
have text that implies a single-shot action. Torvus doesn't
for example.
People don't have trouble if the card would have been written
differently to permit unlimited use (e.g. hunting grounds).
But sometimes, as with Torvus, the text might also have
been written if the intent were multiple burns to untap.
salem
>vte...@white-wolf.com writes:
>
>>English doesn't need to be in the rulebook.
>>English is assumed to mean what it
>>means in the absence of an overriding definition in the rulebook.
>
>>"During your lunch break, you may make one personal call on the >company
>phone."
>
>That has "one" in it. These types of cards don't always
>have text that implies a single-shot action. Torvus doesn't
>for example.
yeah, a better analogy to the current text on cards would be "during
your lunch break, you may call your mum on the company phone".
this leaves it open to just how often you may call your mum. just like
some of the cards that follow the 'During X do Y' template.
sure, when the bill comes your boss will say "you called your mum 5
times each day during lunch!?!?!", and of course you'll reply "you
never said how often i could call her, just that i could, please don't
fire me, i'm saving up to move out of home...".
salem
domain:canberra http://www.geocities.com/salem_christ.geo/vtes.htm
Kerravon
> Kerravon wrote:
> > Why is this not printed on the card?
> > ie "Once per turn during any Methuselah's minion phase, you may burn the
> > Edge to untap Torvus."
> > The reason I ask is I was untapping Torvus multiple times in the
presence of
> > two rules umpires and both said it was ok after reading the card.
>
> The template has served since 1994 (cf. Hunting Grounds and Powerbases).
>
> > Reading the card alone or the rulebook alone I have no indication that I
can
> > only use Torvus's special once.
>
> And hunting grounds and powerbases? Have you also labored under the
absence of
> any indication that they can only be used once? If not, why the
difference?
The Difference
Hunting Ground
During your untap phase, you may move ONE blood from the blood bank to a
ready vampire you control.
That 1 makes it quite clear that it is once per turn.
Kerravon
Kevin M.
> WOAH! Maris Streck can be used multiple times but no one else can? How
> does that language differ? ;-D
> Presumably Maris Streck is once per Block attempt though?
The complete question from Kerravon was:
>>Another Q
>>
>>Maris Streck
>>
>>Maris can burn a blood to give a blocking minion +1 intercept.
>>
>>Can I do this multiple times?
>>
>>Kerravon
and LSJ said "Yes."
Now, given the thread, LSJ probably should have been more specific and clarified the
'Yes' by noting that while Maris Streck *can* use her power multiple times, she can
only do so *once per blocking minion*, which fits the template of "During <X>, do
<Y>" just fine.
During the same action, for example:
Maris can burn a blood to give blocking minion <A> +1 intercept.
Maris can burn a blood to give blocking minion <B> +1 intercept.
Maris can burn a blood to give blocking minion <C> +1 intercept.
This does not violate "During <X>, do <Y>".
What cannot happen is:
Maris can burn a blood to give blocking minion <A> +1 intercept.
Maris can burn a blood to give blocking minion <A> +1 intercept, again.
Maris can burn a blood to give blocking minion <A> +1 intercept, again.
Kevin M., Prince of Henderson, NV (USA)
"Know your enemy, and know yourself; in one-thousand battles
you shall never be in peril." -- Sun Tzu, *The Art of War*
"Contentment... Complacency... Catastrophe!" -- Joseph Chevalier
Kevin M.
> "LSJ" <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote in message
> news:3EDCD57E...@white-wolf.com...
>> Kerravon wrote:
>> > Why is this not printed on the card?
>> > ie "Once per turn during any Methuselah's minion phase, you may
>> > burn the Edge to untap Torvus."
>> > The reason I ask is I was untapping Torvus multiple times in the
>> > presence of two rules umpires and both said it was ok after
>> > reading the card.
>>
>> The template has served since 1994 (cf. Hunting Grounds and
>> Powerbases).
>>
>> > Reading the card alone or the rulebook alone I have no indication
>> > that I can only use Torvus's special once.
>>
>> And hunting grounds and powerbases? Have you also labored under the
>> absence of any indication that they can only be used once? If not,
>> why the difference?
>>
>> LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc.
>> Links to V:TES news, rules, cards, utilities, and tournament
>> calendar: http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/
>
> The Difference
>
> Hunting Ground
>
> During your untap phase, you may move ONE blood from the blood bank
> to a ready vampire you control.
>
>
> That 1 makes it quite clear that it is once per turn.
>
>
> Kerravon
LSJ, this brings up an interesting question. Why didn't CE clear all this up by just
reprinting those select cards which needed it with a 'tap'-empowering mechanic
built-in? I mean, you're reprinting the set, you're licensing the damn WOTC mechanic
anyway, why did you choose not to use it?
Note that I don't care one way or the other, I'm just wondering what the thinking
was, here.
salem
scrawled:
[snip]
>Now, given the thread, LSJ probably should have been more specific and clarified the
>'Yes' by noting that while Maris Streck *can* use her power multiple times, she can
>only do so *once per blocking minion*, which fits the template of "During <X>, do
><Y>" just fine.
>
>During the same action, for example:
>Maris can burn a blood to give blocking minion <A> +1 intercept.
>Maris can burn a blood to give blocking minion <B> +1 intercept.
>Maris can burn a blood to give blocking minion <C> +1 intercept.
>
>This does not violate "During <X>, do <Y>".
>
>What cannot happen is:
>Maris can burn a blood to give blocking minion <A> +1 intercept.
>Maris can burn a blood to give blocking minion <A> +1 intercept, again.
>Maris can burn a blood to give blocking minion <A> +1 intercept, again.
I don't see why not. The ability's text says nothing about how many
times you can use the ability, nor who the ability can apply to each
time. It does not use the 'during phase X do Y' template, as 'blocking
minion' is not a phase...
Text:
Camarilla Justicar: Maris can burn a blood to give a blocking minion
+1 intercept. She can take a +1 stealth action to allow you to look at
and rearrange the top 5 cards of your library.
also, from the wording, Maris is allowed to be the blocking minion in
question, which is kind of like having your own built-in corpse
minion.
Halcyan 2
>by just
>reprinting those select cards which needed it with a 'tap'-empowering
>mechanic
>built-in? I mean, you're reprinting the set, you're licensing the damn WOTC
>mechanic
>anyway, why did you choose not to use it?
>
Well, requiring a tap would at least slightly change the functionality of the
card. For example, if you use Succubus Club to trade for a tapped HG you can't
use it (whereas with the current system you can).
Halcyan 2
LSJ
> The Difference
> During your untap phase, you may move ONE blood from the blood bank to a
> ready vampire you control.
>
> That 1 makes it quite clear that it is once per turn.
How? The thing after the comma is invoked. What prevents you from invoking
it again that doesn't prevent the same for the thing after the comma
in Torvus's case?
During any Methuselah's minion phase, you may burn the Edge to untap Torvus.
LSJ
Correct.
LSJ
> Timlagor <timl...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>>WOAH! Maris Streck can be used multiple times but no one else can? How
>>does that language differ? ;-D
>>Presumably Maris Streck is once per Block attempt though?
> The complete question from Kerravon was:
>
>>>Another Q
>>>Maris Streck
>>>Maris can burn a blood to give a blocking minion +1 intercept.
>>>Can I do this multiple times?
>>>Kerravon
>>
>
> and LSJ said "Yes."
>
> Now, given the thread, LSJ probably should have been more specific and clarified the
> 'Yes' by noting that while Maris Streck *can* use her power multiple times, she can
> only do so *once per blocking minion*, which fits the template of "During <X>, do
> <Y>" just fine.
Maris can burn blood to activate her power as many times on the same blocker as
she like. There is no "During <X>" template on her.
> During the same action, for example:
> Maris can burn a blood to give blocking minion <A> +1 intercept.
> Maris can burn a blood to give blocking minion <B> +1 intercept.
> Maris can burn a blood to give blocking minion <C> +1 intercept.
True.
> This does not violate "During <X>, do <Y>".
>
> What cannot happen is:
> Maris can burn a blood to give blocking minion <A> +1 intercept.
> Maris can burn a blood to give blocking minion <A> +1 intercept, again.
> Maris can burn a blood to give blocking minion <A> +1 intercept, again.
Incorrect. She can.
agzocgud
doesn´t grasp such a basic concept? (the x,y) I had never considered
that Torvus should be restricted to once per turn myself.
The rulebook is a problem. It´s much to complicated and espcially when
english is a second language. I bet that less than half of the 20
players in our town has read the rulebook from cover to cover.
People can play anyway they I guess, but when it comes to tournaments
it´s important that rulings are correct.
How can we make the game easier to start playing?
/Mathias
Kerravon
Why not simply change the text so that anyone can instantly know how it
works
ie
"Once during any Methuselah's minion phase, you may burn the Edge to untap
Torvus."
"Once during your untap phase, you may move 1 blood from the blood bank to a
ready vampire you control."
It needs to be changed. As there are alot of players who have the exact same
problem I do in interpreting these cards.
Or in other words I shouldn't need to go online to ask this question.
Kerravon
LSJ
> Why not simply change the text so that anyone can instantly know how it
> works
> ie
>
> "Once during any Methuselah's minion phase, you may burn the Edge to untap
> Torvus."
>
> "Once during your untap phase, you may move 1 blood from the blood bank to a
> ready vampire you control."
>
> It needs to be changed. As there are alot of players who have the exact same
> problem I do in interpreting these cards.
> Or in other words I shouldn't need to go online to ask this question.
With those wordings, some players will ask if the ability can be used
a second time (say, during your untap phase of a future turn), since
"once" seems to indicate that you cannot.
You'd have to use "Once during each of your untap phases, ..." if you
wanted to replace "During your untap phase, ..."
Curevei
>doesn´t grasp such a basic concept? (the x,y)
Is there any CCG that has lasted for any significant amount of time that didn't
have these sorts of problems?
>I had never considered
>that Torvus should be restricted to once per turn myself.
"during" questions come up fairly often here.
>The rulebook is a problem. It´s much to complicated and espcially when
>english is a second language.
CCG rules are complicated. Rulebooks that aren't complicated probably aren't
all that useful to playing the game correctly either as they'll leave out too
many things. However, I wish rulebooks would contain more examples of how
things work.
My experience with CCGs is that people learn them from other people, someone
learns that they've been playing something wrong from an online source or by
encountering another play group, and it's passed along to the others. English
being a second language shouldn't affect this much as long as the correct
ruling was understood in the first place.
>I bet that less than half of the 20
>players in our town has read the rulebook from cover to cover.
By choice?
>People can play anyway they I guess, but when it comes to tournaments
>it´s important that rulings are correct.
Generally good philosophy with any CCG is, if you've just thought of or built a
killer deck, check to make sure your combos actually work.
>How can we make the game easier to start playing?
Encourage newbies to play with people who know how to play rather than try to
struggle amongst themselves.
CurtAdams
>With those wordings, some players will
>ask if the ability can be used
>a second time (say, during your untap
>phase of a future turn), since
>"once" seems to indicate that you cannot.
>You'd have to use "Once during each of your untap phases, ..."
>if you wanted to replace "During your untap phase, ..."
For complete precision, yes.
However, I would expect, and I think almost everybody
would agree, that a once per game ability would be
written as "once *per game* <during your minion phase
or whatever>". By contrast, I've seen even experienced
players trip over cards like Angelica, Lunatic Eruption,
and Torvus. Just a "Once during ...." would greatly
reduce, if perhaps not completely eliminate, confusion.
There is one unfortunate problem with reprinting
cards with "once" added. By implication, since the
"during" phraseology is often vague in and of itself,
if *some* cards have "once", the cards that don't
are *not* limited to once only. Yes, you can errata,
but I think a lot of cards are involved and not everybody
sees errata. That's why I think a better solution is
to define such templates in (future) rulebooks.
Joshua Duffin
> Halcyan 2 wrote:
[Kevin M wrote]
> >>LSJ, this brings up an interesting question. Why didn't CE clear all this
up
> >>by just
> >>reprinting those select cards which needed it with a 'tap'-empowering
> >>mechanic
> >>built-in? I mean, you're reprinting the set, you're licensing the damn
WOTC
> >>mechanic
> >>anyway, why did you choose not to use it?
> > Well, requiring a tap would at least slightly change the functionality of
the
> > card. For example, if you use Succubus Club to trade for a tapped HG you
can't
> > use it (whereas with the current system you can).
>
> Correct.
Dare I suggest that this functionality doesn't rise to the
level of being worth preserving? :-)
There would still be plenty of cards whose "during X do Y"
writing can't be suitably replaced with "tap to" usage,
but I wouldn't say Succubus Club trading is a good enough
reason to keep Hunting Grounds from working by tapping.
Josh
frankly my dear, i don't give a tap
Joshua Duffin
> Joshua Duffin wrote:
> > How far down do you go before finding cards becoming awkward?
>
> I didn't get out of the A's.
Me either, but it was more because I was bored with the exercise
than because I thought it wasn't working anymore. :-)
Should I go ahead and do them all when I get a chance, would it
be useful to you? Or not worth the time it'd take me (and then
take you to review them)?
> > It seems to work reasonably well for me, if I replace "During your
> > X phase" with "Once each of your X phases". At least, this reads
> > OK for me on Hunting Grounds.
>
> "Once each of" has the unfortunate property that it can easily be
> misread as "When it becomes true that each of", so that reading
> needs to be eliminated as early in the sentence as possible.
Hmm, OK.
> As in "Once during each of" or "Once in" or "During".
> "Once in" begins to look like "At the start of", so that's not
> a clean "fix".
Yeah, "once during each of" is clearer. I guess that adds three
words per card, more or less. There's certainly room for it on
the Hunting Grounds, though. :-)
> > For vampire abilities written "if Foo is ready during your X
> > phase," I like "if Foo is ready, once each of your X phases,".
>
> "Once during each of your X phases, if Foo is ready, ..." is
> clearer.
Yes. It's more deviation from the text as printed, for most
of them, though. (Since most of these vamps seem to be
written starting with "if Foo is ready". Would you consider
"If Foo is ready, once during each of your X phases" just as
good, or prefer starting with the "once during" part?)
> > I'd be happy
> > enough if future cards were simply written to use a "once"
> > phrasing instead of relying on the "during X do Y means once"
> > rule. :-)
>
> It seems to be clearly better for instances when it really is "each"
> and not just "each of your". "Once each minion phase, ...". But
> those cases are few.
It's at least as short when it's every X phase and not just your
own, yeah. I think the gain in clarity is worth the extra three
words even when it's only your own X phase, though.
Josh
I mean, if even Kevin Mergen isn't always clear on which cards
are or aren't using the "during X do Y" template... :-)
Joshua Duffin
"CurtAdams" <curt...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20030603144520...@mb-m19.aol.com...
> There is one unfortunate problem with reprinting
> cards with "once" added. By implication, since the
> "during" phraseology is often vague in and of itself,
> if *some* cards have "once", the cards that don't
> are *not* limited to once only. Yes, you can errata,
> but I think a lot of cards are involved and not everybody
> sees errata. That's why I think a better solution is
> to define such templates in (future) rulebooks.
That's also a good point, and yes, defining the templating
used on cards in the rulebook would be a pretty good solution
to the problem, given the vast quantity of printed cards
currently using the "during X do Y" phrasing (and others).
Josh
ball of confusion
that's what the world is whenever i use that line
again and again
LSJ
[Response to: why didn't the Hunting Grounds get reworded to be tapped when used?]
>>>Well, requiring a tap would at least slightly change the functionality of the
>>>card. For example, if you use Succubus Club to trade for a tapped HG you can't
>>>use it (whereas with the current system you can).
>>
>>Correct.
>
> Dare I suggest that this functionality doesn't rise to the
> level of being worth preserving? :-)
>
> There would still be plenty of cards whose "during X do Y"
> writing can't be suitably replaced with "tap to" usage,
> but I wouldn't say Succubus Club trading is a good enough
> reason to keep Hunting Grounds from working by tapping.
Succubus Club trading isn't a factor at all.
Changing the functionaility of the card (the Hunting Ground card)
is the factor.
Maintaining current functionality has no level point to which to
rise to be maintained (i.e., change is not visited upon every card that
doesn't meet a certain "don't change me" criterion).
Change has a bar to which it has to rise in order to be implemented.
Kevin M.
Huh. That contradicts what you told me when I asked you (via private email) about
this a long time ago, but I suppose I could be misremembering. :P
> LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc.
> Links to V:TES news, rules, cards, utilities, and tournament calendar:
> http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/
Kevin M., Prince of Henderson, NV (USA)
Halcyan 2
>doesn´t grasp such a basic concept? (the x,y) I had never considered
>that Torvus should be restricted to once per turn myself.
>The rulebook is a problem. It´s much to complicated and espcially when
>english is a second language. I bet that less than half of the 20
>players in our town has read the rulebook from cover to cover.
Hey, complicated can be good in that it adds depth and sophistication. AFAIK, I
don't think I've actually fully read the rulebook from front to cover but you
don't necessarily need to.
However, the "During <X>, do <Y" rule has been around for *years*. It might be
hard for newer players to learn about it but the template has existed for quite
some time, as well as the online resources to look it up or ask.
>How can we make the game easier to start playing?
Personally, I think things are fine as they are...
Halcyan 2