foils in Sabbat war expantion
mfgr...@my-deja.com
premium foil cards in the next expantion
it would give collectors a challange and will propably raise the amount
of cards sold because of the increased value of a booster pack
the same seems to have happened with Magic the gathering, the "mother"
of all cards games
The counterargument presented when is was discussed whether foils in
magic are a good idea was that it makes the game too commercialised and
it was just an other idea to get more money
this holds for vampire too, and a very commercial approach doesn't quite
fit the atmosphere of the game
however, the argument presented in favour of foils was quite simple: if
you don't like them, trade them away
you cannot dislike foils, if you open one up and don't want it, you can
trade it away and have a card for trade that is pretty valuable.
And the average amount of value in boosterpacks raises because of the
potential to get a foil, so even in a common slot you can get a valuable
card and foil rares are worth much more than non-foils.
so the main argument in favor of them is you can't not like them.
people who like them are profiting form the fact that they have nice
shiny cards and people who don't like them are profiting because they
get more money out of there boosterpacks and have more valuable cards to
trade away.
So that would mean that i'm in favor of them yes, or at least think it's
worth considering
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Tim Eijpe
Just my thought on the matter:
Eventhough you are correct that it would increase the collectors
willingness to spend money for the foils, I would say that foils would
take away an aspect I have liked about V:tES for ages now: It's not
worth very much!! With this I mean that while some cards are worth
something the overall single card worth is zip. Moreover V:tES is a CCG
based on using the Common cards, which the best cards are. This places
V:tES in an unique situation, as almost all other cardgames rely on
their Rare cards. Which in turn are worth a lot. I wouldn't want the
Star Wars/Pokemon thing to happen to V:tES. It should remain a ccg that
anyone could play well, without having to have all those expensive
rares, although these foils COULD be "commons" as well.
Furthermore, I would say that collecters are NOT players and players is
what this game needs, since it is a multi-player-interaction game. See
what happened to Middle Earth (aside from bad management).
Greetz:)
Tim
PROPHECY OF GEHENNA:
On The First Day Of Gehenna
The Shrieking Wind Shall Be Silent
And When A Black Sun Hangs From A Somber Sky
Caine's Sleeping Children Shall Once Again Arise
Markus Reinsch
long time no see *g*
Im against foiled cards in Vampire. Thy would destroy the generally dark
flair of the game. I don´t like the thought of a sparkling Lambach. That
may be a good idea for Pokemon or Magic but Vampire???? Definitively
not!
Just my 2c.
Markus, V:EKN Prince of Mannheim, Germany
YESSSSSSSSSSSS I'M BACK!!!!!!!!!!!!! *GGGG*
--
------------------------------In Goth we trust-------------------------
James Coupe
> you cannot dislike foils,
This is not true. I know many people who dislike them for a number of
reasons. The most popular two appear to be:
1) The cash cow mentality - let's make this card ultra-super-duper rare,
so everyone has to buy hundreds of boosters
2) The marked deck - foils often show up on cards, making them much easier
to mark a deck for shuffling etc.
--
James Coupe | PGP Key 0x5D623D5D
"But I don't have the right to be with you tonight, so please leave me
alone with no saviour in sight. I will sleep safe and sound with nobody
around me."
mfgr...@my-deja.com
i don't understand how the fact that you want the game to be playable
with only commons makes you against foils
there are still enough commons in the game that are worth nothing and
are very good
remember that foils don't change the avalible cardpool, every card that
is avalible in foil version is also avalible in non-foil (in case of the
commons:worthless and freely avalible version)
it is even the case that people who don't want to spend much money on
the game can trade their foil out of there booster for a playable rare
in their deck
James Coupe
> willingness to spend money for the foils, I would say that foils would
> take away an aspect I have liked about V:tES for ages now: It's not
> worth very much!!
However, on the flipside, cards which are worth a lot of money can help
increase sales etc., thus making things better for WW.
mfgr...@my-deja.com
James Coupe <ja...@zephyr.org.uk> wrote:
> On Fri, 12 May 2000 mfgr...@my-deja.com wrote:
> > you cannot dislike foils,
>
> This is not true. I know many people who dislike them for a number of
> reasons. The most popular two appear to be:
>
> 1) The cash cow mentality - let's make this card ultra-super-duper
rare,
> so everyone has to buy hundreds of boosters
this argument doen't hold in my view, all foils are also avalible in
regular, non-foil condition so everybody should be able to afford the
regular card while some people want that same card in foil version.
and if you dislike foils but happen to encounter them in your pack, be
happy and trade it away for some nice rares
> 2) The marked deck - foils often show up on cards, making them much
easier
> to mark a deck for shuffling etc.
true when playing without sleeves, but i don't think anybody who has
foils in his deck is going to play without them
for tournament play, it should be illegal to play foils without sleeves
> James Coupe | PGP Key 0x5D623D5D
> "But I don't have the right to be with you tonight, so please leave me
> alone with no saviour in sight. I will sleep safe and sound with
nobody
> around me."
>
>
legb...@my-deja.com
mfgr...@my-deja.com wrote:
> I would like to know what people would think of the idea to include
> premium foil cards in the next expantion
i'd be FOR this, provided they weren't power-rares; i'd rather that there
were foil versions of some of the cards [like in pokemon]. Collectors are
the people who buy the most cards, and this would encourage them to get
into buying more of the game.
i disagree with Tim's general statement that collectors aren't players. I
was a collector of jyhad before i was a player. MOST collectors are not
players is of course true.
i disagree with markus that the dark aspect of VTES would be compromised
by foils. The foils in the Team Rocket [bad guy] expansion for Pokemon
are very nice indeed, very dark and MUCH better than the foils in the
first three sets. Furthermore, White Wolf in their time produced some of
the very best foils ever made for Classic rage [a dark game, though not
as moody as vampires, of course].
However, james C is right that foils can be marked cards. Michael reckons
it is easy to pick out the foils from a Pokemon deck because they have a
different bendiness.
Tim Eijpe
mfgr...@my-deja.com wrote:
>
>
> >
> > Just my thought on the matter:
> >
> > Eventhough you are correct that it would increase the collectors
would
> > take away an aspect I have liked about V:tES for ages now: It's not
> > something the overall single card worth is zip. Moreover V:tES is a
> CCG
> > based on using the Common cards, which the best cards are. This
places
> > V:tES in an unique situation, as almost all other cardgames rely on
> > their Rare cards. Which in turn are worth a lot. I wouldn't want the
> > Star Wars/Pokemon thing to happen to V:tES. It should remain a ccg
> that
> > anyone could play well, without having to have all those expensive
> > rares, although these foils COULD be "commons" as well.
> >
> > Furthermore, I would say that collecters are NOT players and players
> is
> > what this game needs, since it is a multi-player-interaction game.
See
> > what happened to Middle Earth (aside from bad management).
> >
> > Greetz:)
> >
> > Tim
> >
> > PROPHECY OF GEHENNA:
> > On The First Day Of Gehenna
> > The Shrieking Wind Shall Be Silent
> > And When A Black Sun Hangs From A Somber Sky
> > Caine's Sleeping Children Shall Once Again Arise
> >
> with only commons makes you against foils
> there are still enough commons in the game that are worth nothing and
> are very good
> remember that foils don't change the avalible cardpool, every card
that
> is avalible in foil version is also avalible in non-foil (in case of
the
> commons:worthless and freely avalible version)
> it is even the case that people who don't want to spend much money on
> the game can trade their foil out of there booster for a playable rare
> in their deck
>
I mistook the foils you meant as the ultra-rare silver and gold cards we
had in Rage 1 (sorry about that)
But still I would like to see more players and less collectors. Moreover
i think that foils don't get along with the general feeling of V:tES,
but this is a matter of preferences.
So oinly my second argument is still standing.
Tim
Tim Eijpe
legb...@my-deja.com wrote:
> In article <8fghb2$bl3$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
> mfgr...@my-deja.com wrote:
> > I would like to know what people would think of the idea to include
> > premium foil cards in the next expantion
>
> i'd be FOR this, provided they weren't power-rares; i'd rather that
there
> were foil versions of some of the cards [like in pokemon]. Collectors
are
> the people who buy the most cards, and this would encourage them to
get
> into buying more of the game.
>
> i disagree with Tim's general statement that collectors aren't
players. I
> was a collector of jyhad before i was a player. MOST collectors are
not
> players is of course true.
This is exactly what I was trying to say. I just don't want to see V:TES
cards get way overprized, and have people who don't understand the
mechanics of the game (e.g. most collectors and sellers) play a
prominent role in the trade/buy aspect. Again this is only my opinion.
Tim
>
> i disagree with markus that the dark aspect of VTES would be
compromised
> by foils. The foils in the Team Rocket [bad guy] expansion for Pokemon
> are very nice indeed, very dark and MUCH better than the foils in the
> first three sets. Furthermore, White Wolf in their time produced some
of
> the very best foils ever made for Classic rage [a dark game, though
not
> as moody as vampires, of course].
>
> However, james C is right that foils can be marked cards. Michael
reckons
> it is easy to pick out the foils from a Pokemon deck because they have
a
> different bendiness.
>
e
legb...@my-deja.com
Tim Eijpe <t_e...@my-deja.com> wrote:
> In article <8fgoft$iro$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
> legb...@my-deja.com wrote:
> > In article <8fghb2$bl3$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
> > mfgr...@my-deja.com wrote:
> > > I would like to know what people would think of the idea to include
> > > premium foil cards in the next expantion
> >
> > i'd be FOR this, provided they weren't power-rares; i'd rather that
> there
> > were foil versions of some of the cards [like in pokemon]. Collectors
> are
> > the people who buy the most cards, and this would encourage them to
> get
> > into buying more of the game.
> >
> > i disagree with Tim's general statement that collectors aren't
> players. I
> > was a collector of jyhad before i was a player. MOST collectors are
> not
> > players is of course true.
>
> This is exactly what I was trying to say. I just don't want to see V:TES
> cards get way overprized, and have people who don't understand the
> mechanics of the game (e.g. most collectors and sellers) play a
> prominent role in the trade/buy aspect. Again this is only my opinion.
>
> Tim
>
who wants to see a long-term future for the game becuse it makes
TRUCKLOADS of money for White Wolf, i don't. The vampire collectible card
market is a big one, BTW, as a glance at the walls of Steve and Lunar's
house will show you.
legb...@my-deja.com
> > with only commons makes you against foils
> > there are still enough commons in the game that are worth nothing and
> > are very good
> > remember that foils don't change the avalible cardpool, every card
> that
> > is avalible in foil version is also avalible in non-foil (in case of
> the
> > commons:worthless and freely avalible version)
> > it is even the case that people who don't want to spend much money on
> > the game can trade their foil out of there booster for a playable rare
> > in their deck
> >
>
> I mistook the foils you meant as the ultra-rare silver and gold cards we
> had in Rage 1 (sorry about that)
> But still I would like to see more players and less collectors. Moreover
> i think that foils don't get along with the general feeling of V:tES,
> but this is a matter of preferences.
> So oinly my second argument is still standing.
>
> Tim
>
be instrumental in helping us get these, because they will buy shedloads
of cards if the production values are nice and the cards are attractive
in other ways [such as foiliness and porniness] to the collector
mentality. This will make it more worth while for White Wolf to publish
more cards, and that will increase the variety of decks that are
buildable and generally make us all happy as little sandboys and girls.
Think of collectors as a necessary evil, Tim - you don't have to TALK to
them.
Tim Eijpe
legb...@my-deja.com wrote:
> In article <8fgpk9$k3q$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
That was a way I hadn't thought about it, I was looking at it from a
players point of view. If Foils in V:tES can ensure any regularity in
products from WW, then who am I to oppose that!
BTW You should see my place then, I know how big a world it is, having
and had cards from over 14 cardgames.....
Tim
--
mfgr...@my-deja.com
opinion that foils will increase the amounts of cards sold while not
damaging anyone
jsut to remove any misunderstanding, with foils i do NOT mean ultra rare
cards only avalible in foil version as with rage, but to have every
cards printed in a foil and non-foil version, as has been done with
magic
so every card will be avalible in a non-foil affordable version
maybe it's time to bring this item up to the people in charge of vtes
and let hear what they have to say
mr Weick?
James Coupe
> > 1) The cash cow mentality - let's make this card ultra-super-duper
> rare,
> > so everyone has to buy hundreds of boosters
>
> this argument doen't hold in my view,
Regardless, your initial statement of you "you cannot dislike foils" is
demonstrably untrue. Lots of people dislike foils. Whether you think
their arguments are good ones is an entirely different matter.
--
James Coupe
> However, james C is right that foils can be marked cards. Michael reckons
> it is easy to pick out the foils from a Pokemon deck because they have a
> different bendiness.
uk.games.trading-cards.misc had a huge Anglo-Scottish flamewar about this
one some time ago based on one player shuffling his deck, cutting it and
the foil being on top and then doing it another time and saying "It's
okay, I haven't cut to the foil this time" (or words to that
effect). Dejanews can help out there.
The cards tend to be thicker and a different feel completely to 'normal'
cards.
Markus Reinsch
>
> What i would like to see is more players and more cards. Collectors can
> be instrumental in helping us get these, because they will buy shedloads
> of cards if the production values are nice and the cards are attractive
> in other ways [such as foiliness and porniness] to the collector
> mentality. This will make it more worth while for White Wolf to publish
> more cards, and that will increase the variety of decks that are
> buildable and generally make us all happy as little sandboys and girls.
> Think of collectors as a necessary evil, Tim - you don't have to TALK to
> them.
This would kill one reason that makes Vampire in my opinion so
interesting: no kiddies or prof. traders wich try to cheat you when
trading or annoy you while playing with offers for card just because
they see you play a particulary clan (Hey pal, I惴 sure your in need of
a mint, foiled xxx) or so.
Another reason is stealing. ATM it愀 not of interest to steal
Vampire-cards or decks because the have no or as good as no value. But
if there are cards with high(er) values and people who are (re-)selling
them, this becomes an option. I've seen it with magic. In the beginning
there was nothing like deck-theft but now? Before I stopped playing
someone riped me of two decks. They weren't very strong but consisted
completely of reviced cards.
CYA,
Markus, V:EKN Prince of Mannheim, Germany
NP: Illuminate - Die Spieluhr
James Coupe
> jsut to remove any misunderstanding, with foils i do NOT mean ultra rare
> cards only avalible in foil version as with rage,
If that's the case, chances are it wouldn't increase sales that radically
anyway. I have a Card X - cool. I can play it. If it's much harder to
get, I'll buy more cards to get it. But, unless I'm a collector, once I
have it, it doesn't really matter if it's foil or non-foil.
Jyhad has never really been a game for collectors, in the same way that
other games are. IME, *almost* everyone with Jyhad is a player. As such,
it's mostly the players you have to appeal to - and a foil card is as good
as a non-foil for playing with. All you end up doing with requiring foil
cards to be printed is ruin the economies of scale of printing, since you
can't just print them all in one big batch, but require separate batches,
and up the cost of the cards, since shiny stuff must be paid for. Since
WW not only have to make a profit but *also* keep the players on side, I
cannot see that printing foils would work - Jyhad doesn't have the huge
player base whereby the slight increase in costs for printing foils can be
offset by huge sales (e.g. they only make 5 million on the expansion,
instead of 5.2 million, or whatever), as it can be in Pokemon, say.
legb...@my-deja.com
>
> > jsut to remove any misunderstanding, with foils i do NOT mean ultra rare
> > cards only avalible in foil version as with rage,
>
> If that's the case, chances are it wouldn't increase sales that radically
> anyway. I have a Card X - cool. I can play it. If it's much harder to
> get, I'll buy more cards to get it. But, unless I'm a collector, once I
> have it, it doesn't really matter if it's foil or non-foil.
>
> Jyhad has never really been a game for collectors, in the same way that
> other games are. IME, *almost* everyone with Jyhad is a player. As such,
> it's mostly the players you have to appeal to - and a foil card is as good
> as a non-foil for playing with. All you end up doing with requiring foil
> cards to be printed is ruin the economies of scale of printing, since you
> can't just print them all in one big batch, but require separate batches,
> and up the cost of the cards, since shiny stuff must be paid for. Since
> WW not only have to make a profit but *also* keep the players on side, I
> cannot see that printing foils would work - Jyhad doesn't have the huge
> player base whereby the slight increase in costs for printing foils can be
> offset by huge sales (e.g. they only make 5 million on the expansion,
> instead of 5.2 million, or whatever), as it can be in Pokemon, say.
>
10% to the cost of a print-run? Might be worth while. Doubles it?
Probably not. Classic rage wasn't expensive despite the high quality of
the cards and the foils, but on the other hand it apparently didn't make
much money for White Wolf.
However there are other ways to make cards attractive to collectors.
Having a select few signed by the artists, for example, or different
illustrations for some cards.
mfgr...@my-deja.com
James Coupe <ja...@zephyr.org.uk> wrote:
> On Fri, 12 May 2000 legb...@my-deja.com wrote:
> > However, james C is right that foils can be marked cards. Michael
reckons
> > it is easy to pick out the foils from a Pokemon deck because they
have a
> > different bendiness.
>
> uk.games.trading-cards.misc had a huge Anglo-Scottish flamewar about
this
> one some time ago based on one player shuffling his deck, cutting it
and
> the foil being on top and then doing it another time and saying "It's
> okay, I haven't cut to the foil this time" (or words to that
> effect). Dejanews can help out there.
>
> The cards tend to be thicker and a different feel completely to
'normal'
> cards.
I haven't followed that discussion
there may be a chance however that we don't have to reinvent the wheel
At this moment magic tournaments are more mature, more common,more
professionaly organised and there's a much more money at stake.
But foils are tournament legal
--
> James Coupe | PGP Key 0x5D623D5D
> "But I don't have the right to be with you tonight, so please leave me
> alone with no saviour in sight. I will sleep safe and sound with
nobody
> around me."
>
>
mfgr...@my-deja.com
James Coupe <ja...@zephyr.org.uk> wrote:
> On Fri, 12 May 2000 mfgr...@my-deja.com wrote:
>
> > jsut to remove any misunderstanding, with foils i do NOT mean ultra
rare
> > cards only avalible in foil version as with rage,
>
> If that's the case, chances are it wouldn't increase sales that
radically
> anyway. I have a Card X - cool. I can play it. If it's much harder
to
> get, I'll buy more cards to get it. But, unless I'm a collector, once
I
> have it, it doesn't really matter if it's foil or non-foil.
This is not true, every serious collector does want both the foil and
non-foil.
seen in that light given the rarity of foils, sales will increase in my
opinion
> Jyhad has never really been a game for collectors, in the same way
that
> other games are. IME, *almost* everyone with Jyhad is a player. As
such,
> it's mostly the players you have to appeal to - and a foil card is as
good
> as a non-foil for playing with. All you end up doing with requiring
foil
> cards to be printed is ruin the economies of scale of printing, since
you
> can't just print them all in one big batch, but require separate
batches,
> and up the cost of the cards, since shiny stuff must be paid for.
Since
> WW not only have to make a profit but *also* keep the players on side,
I
> cannot see that printing foils would work - Jyhad doesn't have the
huge
> player base whereby the slight increase in costs for printing foils
can be
> offset by huge sales (e.g. they only make 5 million on the expansion,
> instead of 5.2 million, or whatever), as it can be in Pokemon, say.
this I consider a realistic problem, i don't know whether the increase
in production costs will be more than the increased predicted sales
seems like a job for the WW accountant to me
mfgr...@my-deja.com
> > rare,
> > > so everyone has to buy hundreds of boosters
> >
> > this argument doen't hold in my view,
>
> Regardless, your initial statement of you "you cannot dislike foils"
is
> demonstrably untrue. Lots of people dislike foils. Whether you think
> their arguments are good ones is an entirely different matter.
yes and no
yes because it is possible that people just don't like foils for
whatever reason, even if i find their reasons irrelevant or false
so theoretically you're right
however practically speaking not
i said that people can't dislike foils because, if they don't for
whatever reason, they can trade them away
So people can't dislike foils because when they get one out of their
booster they can trade it away and get more in return than when they had
found a non-foil card in their booster.
so you can't dislike something that you can:
- ignore if you want to
-and when you are confronted with it (getting one out of a booster) you
can still ignore and be better off when you didn't confront it (because
you just trade it away and a foil is worth more than a non-foil)
there are execptions to these statements, for instance if the hate
feeled when seeing a foil is larger than the profit made when trading it
away
these however, are pretty irrational arguments that will not apply often
it might belong to a malkavian or something...
Mike Nudd
>James Coupe | PGP Key 0x5D623D5D
>"But I don't have the right to be with you tonight, so please leave me
>alone with no saviour in sight. I will sleep safe and sound with nobody
>around me."
Catatonia fan, eh? : )
----
Mike Nudd
VEKN Prince of London
mi...@vekn.org.uk
http://www.vtes.org.uk
James Coupe
> Catatonia fan, eh? : )
Didn't we already do this one?
--
Saliib
> this argument doen't hold in my view, all foils are also avalible in
> regular, non-foil condition so everybody should be able to afford the
> regular card while some people want that same card in foil version.
> and if you dislike foils but happen to encounter them in your pack, be
> happy and trade it away for some nice rares
---> Yeah, so now I have to pay shipping just to get a non foil card?
> true when playing without sleeves, but i don't think anybody who has
> foils in his deck is going to play without them
> for tournament play, it should be illegal to play foils without
sleeves
---> And I have to buy special equipment just to play a CCG? Gimme a
break. Eliminate the foils and no extra money will need to be spent.
We play the game for fun, not for an investment. Obviously WW believes
VTES can be profitable, since they bought it from WotC.
Steve Wieck
those who look out for White Wolf's economic interests! (and thereby their
own to keep this game running again). Initially my gut tells me foils would
not thematically be appropriate for V:TES, but I'll run this by some of our
graphic designers and see if it interests them. Perhaps we can find some
nice black foils that would actually be attractive and evocative rather than
flashy and gaudy. "How much more black can it be?"
BTW, White Wolf and WOTC still co-own V:TES. We simply reversed the license
for it, so now we publish it and pay WOTC a royalty on sales rather than
vice versa.
Thanks
Steve Wieck
White Wolf
James Coupe
> > get, I'll buy more cards to get it. But, unless I'm a collector, once
> I
> > have it, it doesn't really matter if it's foil or non-foil.
>
> This is not true, every serious collector does want both the foil and
> non-foil.
Please do try and read what I write. Usenet is not a write-only medium:
"But, unless I'm a collector"
--
James Coupe
> whatever reason, they can trade them away
That's still crap. The dislike of foils isn't rooted in whether you have
them or not, for a lot of people, but their very existence. You do not
seem to understand that there are a number of people who vehemently
dislike foils *as a concept* for a number of reasons.
mfgr...@my-deja.com
once
> > I
> > > have it, it doesn't really matter if it's foil or non-foil.
> >
> > This is not true, every serious collector does want both the foil
and
> > non-foil.
>
> Please do try and read what I write. Usenet is not a write-only
medium:
>
> "But, unless I'm a collector"
you're correct there, i missed that part
--
> James Coupe | PGP Key 0x5D623D5D
> "But I don't have the right to be with you tonight, so please leave me
> alone with no saviour in sight. I will sleep safe and sound with
nobody
> around me."
>
>
mfgr...@my-deja.com
James Coupe <ja...@zephyr.org.uk> wrote:
> On Fri, 12 May 2000 mfgr...@my-deja.com wrote:
> > whatever reason, they can trade them away
>
> That's still crap. The dislike of foils isn't rooted in whether you
have
> them or not, for a lot of people, but their very existence. You do
not
> seem to understand that there are a number of people who vehemently
> dislike foils *as a concept* for a number of reasons.
I can think of "emotional" arguments against them, but what i've tried
to make clear is that i can't find any rational arguments against them,
This with the exception if it's the case that they generate negative
cash-flow (the costs are higher than the revenues)
However, i agree that good arguments are not always completely rational
Another point i would like to add is that i think most people are not
only just collectors or players
most are somewhat in between with a primairy but not exclusively
interest in playing or collecting
most players do own a fair amount of cards because they think they are
cool or pretty (at least i do), and most collectors do play sometimes
and there's a large group in the middle who both collects and plays
So foils might be of interest to people other than pure collectors and
might end up with players who just like that card. but as stated this is
just my owm observation with trading cards games in general and my own
preference
cameron...@my-deja.com
I'm in favour, as long there's no foil only card or something, like in
Rage. My real problem is with ultra-rares.
If you can get some sort of black foil even better.
CM
James Coupe
> I can think of "emotional" arguments against them, but what i've tried
> to make clear is that i can't find any rational arguments against them,
That doesn't matter. I can't find any rational arguments to give up Jyhad
because of the name change from Jyhad to V:TES. It apparently happened,
though. Providing potential for irrational reasons is bad.
legb...@my-deja.com
with Extreme Prejudice. That's just basic bad ol' human nature i'm
afraid. However, let's try not to deal in absolutes here because they
don't exist - there WOULD be some negative consequences of WW bringing
out foils. There would also, probably, be some positive consequences. We
have to form a judgement individually about whether the positive
consequences outweigh the negative ones. My judgement is that for the
long-term future of the game we all love, they do.
legb...@my-deja.com
"Steve Wieck" <steve...@white-wolf.com> wrote:
> Well, I appreciate seeing this topic discussed, and I'm never opposed to
> those who look out for White Wolf's economic interests! (and thereby their
> own to keep this game running again). Initially my gut tells me foils would
> not thematically be appropriate for V:TES, but I'll run this by some of our
> graphic designers and see if it interests them. Perhaps we can find some
> nice black foils that would actually be attractive and evocative rather than
> flashy and gaudy. "How much more black can it be?"
Classic Rage foils, especially from the Wyrm, were IMO the finest
collector cards ever produced, and not at ALL gaudy. You own the artwork.
How about recycling some of this for vampire? Count Vladimir Rustovich
would be the obvious one and you could issue him as a character with two
different artworks [human and zulo forms]. If the marked card thing is a
problem you could maybe explore the old idea of Methuselah cards as a
stand-alone tag-on to VTES, and make the Methuselah cards foils - once
again recycling appropriate artwork from Classic rage.
>
> BTW, White Wolf and WOTC still co-own V:TES. We simply reversed the license
> for it, so now we publish it and pay WOTC a royalty on sales rather than
> vice versa.
>
> Thanks
> Steve Wieck
> White Wolf
>
Dam', so we STILL can't be rude about Wizards??? ;-)
mfgr...@my-deja.com
foils would be a positive thing for the game as a whole
Lord Darksword
This thread is interesting, interesting enough to wake me up enough to
write to it. As both a collector and a player, I have rather mixed
views on foils being added to the Sabbat War release. Well, let me muse
on the pros and cons....
Collector Pro A:
WoW! FoIlS!!! Gotta have 2, no, 3 Boxes of boosters to get 'em!
(collector gotta have syndrome. Could increase sales of product..)
Player Pro A:
Well they are pretty, and sorta cool. But they can really be cool to
trade to that dumb collector for 5 of those rare ally cards for my
deck....
This works if they are foil versions of regular cards in the set. If
they are unique, like as were the Rage foils, the story could be a
little different...
Collector Pro A, adj.:
WoW! FoIlS!!! UNIQUE ULTRA RARE FOILS!!!! Gotta have 3, no, 5 Boxes
of boosters to get 'em! (collector gotta have syndrome. Could increase
sales of product..)
Player Pro A, adj.:
Well that &%#(@*# WW did it to me! Have to get 3 or four boxes so my
deck can have a chance against Freds with those special Vampires in it.
Then again, there are cons...
Collector Con A:
Humm. Foils. I already have to buy 3 boxes of each magic and Pokemon
release as it is, whadda they think, I'm made outa money?
Most collectors tend to buy more than one game, I think. I have to try
to keep up with Magic and Vampire, and have had to drop Star Trek
back with the First Contact set. And my Wyvern set is still lacking a
few numbers...
Player Con A:
Well that &%#(@*# WW did it to me! Have to get 3 or four boxes so my
deck can have a chance against Freds with those special Vampires in it.
Foils could be a cool addition to the game or a drag. When you have a
great player friendly game like V:TES, would foils be a good thing, or
would they instead be a hinderance?
Will
Lord Darksword
VEKN Prince of Reno.
cyru...@my-deja.com
only hurt the game.
1)They will cause boosters to sell for what ever
a retailer can get for them. (example pokemon
2.99 sells for 4.99 cause everyone is buying them
for the foils and because of supply and demand.)
2) Has there ever been a bad no selling expansion
for V:TES?
So in my personal view they can only hurt.
Shawn
In article <8fmcco$eo3$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
mfgr...@my-deja.com wrote:
> In article <Pine.SOL.4.21.0005130221470.22053-
100...@red.csi.cam.ac.uk>,
> James Coupe <ja...@zephyr.org.uk> wrote:
> > On Fri, 12 May 2000 mfgr...@my-deja.com
wrote:
> > > i said that people can't dislike foils
because, if they don't for
> > > whatever reason, they can trade them away
> >
> > That's still crap. The dislike of foils
isn't rooted in whether you
> have
> > them or not, for a lot of people, but their
very existence. You do
> not
> > seem to understand that there are a number of
people who vehemently
> > dislike foils *as a concept* for a number of
reasons.
>
> I can think of "emotional" arguments against
them, but what i've tried
> to make clear is that i can't find any rational
arguments against them,
>
> > --
> > James Coupe | PGP Key 0x5D623D5D
> > "But I don't have the right to be with you
tonight, so please leave me
> > alone with no saviour in sight. I will sleep
safe and sound with
> nobody
> > around me."
> >
> >
>
The Lasombra
mfgr...@my-deja.com wrote:
> I would like to know what people would think of the idea to include
> premium foil cards in the next expantion
> amount of cards sold because of the increased value of a booster pack
> the same seems to have happened with Magic the gathering, the "mother"
> of all cards games The counterargument presented when is was
> discussed whether foils in magic are a good idea was that it makes
> the game too commercialised and it was just an other idea to get
> more money this holds for vampire too, and a very commercial approach
> doesn't quite fit the atmosphere of the game
As a collector and player, (and sometime card seller), I would be very
much against foil cards of any sort in this most wondrous of games.
The cards that sell are the cards that are playable. Everyone and
their brother wants Disarms because they are eminently playable, no one
except the collector trying to finish a collection wants Children of
Osiris. Once the collection is complete, the collector stops buying.
When a new deck idea strikes a player, he will buy cards again.
Collectors are not repeat customers, players are.
In the long run, foils will not help the game in any significant way.
New cards every 6-9 months will do wonders for the game.
Just Say No, to foils.
Carpe Noctem.
Lasombra
http://members.tripod.com/~Lasombra
Arkham
Lord Darksword <lord_dar...@my-deja.com> wrote:
<snip>
> Foils could be a cool addition to the game or a drag. When you have a
> great player friendly game like V:TES, would foils be a good thing, or
> would they instead be a hinderance?
Personally, I want 10 foil Majesties for my political deck.
If the rejuvenated game is popular enough for retailers to crack
boxes for singles in the first place, they will open even more
for people like me with too much money on their hands who want to
fulfill their foil addiction. And with the surplus of non-foil
singles, they will remain at a good, affordable price for
other players.
--
--Arkham : The Blackened Hatter
( ark...@my-deja.com )
legb...@my-deja.com
The Lasombra <TheLa...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> In article <8fghb2$bl3$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
> mfgr...@my-deja.com wrote:
> > I would like to know what people would think of the idea to include
> > premium foil cards in the next expantion
> > it would give collectors a challange and will propably raise the
> > amount of cards sold because of the increased value of a booster pack
> > the same seems to have happened with Magic the gathering, the "mother"
> > of all cards games The counterargument presented when is was
> > discussed whether foils in magic are a good idea was that it makes
> > the game too commercialised and it was just an other idea to get
> > more money this holds for vampire too, and a very commercial approach
> > doesn't quite fit the atmosphere of the game
>
> As a collector and player, (and sometime card seller), I would be very
> much against foil cards of any sort in this most wondrous of games.
>
> The cards that sell are the cards that are playable. Everyone and
> their brother wants Disarms because they are eminently playable, no one
> except the collector trying to finish a collection wants Children of
> Osiris. Once the collection is complete, the collector stops buying.
> When a new deck idea strikes a player, he will buy cards again.
>
> Collectors are not repeat customers, players are.
That's true. But at the moment collectors are not significant VTES
customers AT ALL. They could be. This could help us [speaking with player
hat on].
>
> In the long run, foils will not help the game in any significant way.
True. But they MIGHT help in the short run, because more collectors will
buy the stuff.
>
> New cards every 6-9 months will do wonders for the game.
Also true, and more likely to happen if White Wolf can reliably relieve
some of the collectors of a proportion of their cash. It's a realistic
objective in my view - they already buy non-playable vampire cards.
>
> Just Say No, to foils.
Psst - hey Heepy! I theenk i know what you wan'!
Legbiter "i coulda been a crack deala"
Frederick Scott
>I don't think Vampire needs foils for they will
>only hurt the game.
>
>1)They will cause boosters to sell for what ever
>a retailer can get for them. (example pokemon
>2.99 sells for 4.99 cause everyone is buying them
>for the foils and because of supply and demand.)
There's always the potential for underprinting. I don't think
White Wolf would do it on purpose but if foils or anything
else caused them to underestimate demand, CCGs are vulnerable
to that. Still, in the long run this scenario turns out to
be a good one, not a bad one. The disaster for players is
when they print 2.99 booster packs that can't be sold in the
bargain bin for a quarter.
>2) Has there ever been a bad no selling expansion
>for V:TES?
Er, is this a trick question? I suppose the current shortage
of Sabbat and AH is misleading but I believe from WotC's viewpoint,
all of them were disappointing. You print cards, you want them to
be hard to get in a few months, not several years later.
Fred
mfgr...@my-deja.com
> great player friendly game like V:TES, would foils be a good thing, or
> would they instead be a hinderance?
>
> Lord Darksword
> VEKN Prince of Reno.
>
> Before you buy.
I want to know whether i am right when i state that most people are not
purely players or collecters and most taking a position somewhere in
between
it must be apparent by now that i am in favor of foils, but not foils a
la rage
ultra rare broken cards turn a card game into a rich kid game, and i
don't think the average reaction of a player is, when they encounter
such a card, : he, lets buy more cards, but more like: he, lets quit
this stupid luck based game.
a less rigorous way is to ban people who play with such cards in their
deck
mfgr...@my-deja.com
Arkham <ark...@my-deja.com> wrote:
> In article <8fptqs$9ki$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
> Lord Darksword <lord_dar...@my-deja.com> wrote:
>
> > Foils could be a cool addition to the game or a drag. When you have
a
> > great player friendly game like V:TES, would foils be a good thing,
or
> > would they instead be a hinderance?
>
> If the rejuvenated game is popular enough for retailers to crack
> boxes for singles in the first place, they will open even more
> for people like me with too much money on their hands who want to
> fulfill their foil addiction. And with the surplus of non-foil
> singles, they will remain at a good, affordable price for
> other players.
>
my point exactly, nobody loses and everybody gains
> --Arkham : The Blackened Hatter
> ( ark...@my-deja.com )
>
mfgr...@my-deja.com
your argument against foils can be summarised, and please correct me if
i'm wrong, that players are the most important supporters of the game
and collectors are not
> Collectors are not repeat customers, players are.
this is not true when new sets are coming out, collectors become
customers again
and you're suggesting that there are a lot of people that are only
collecting and never play the game
i don't think that's the case, most collectors do also play and most
players do collect too (you too, as you said)
i don't think you can make such a sharp distinction between the two
groups
but even if i'm following your argument, it still isn't an argument
against foils
you seem to agree (and again, please tell me if i'm wrong) that
collectors will buy more cards when foils exist than when they don't
exist
but you are not saying that players are buying less cards because of the
foil thing (because it's impossible to distinct most people as purely
collectors or players, and because of the average increased value of the
content of a boosterpack because of the chances to get a foil, which is
non-disputable worth more than a non foil, i say they are even buying
more packs)
so without foils,according to you, players are buying for an amount of
$X and collectors are buying for $Y
with foils, players are still spending $X (that amount hasn't changed)
but collectors are spending $Y +$Z, where Z is the amount extra spend to
complete their foil collection
so more money is spent on vampire which will increase the chances of new
sets
And not to speak of the potential second-hand market (YOU!!!) which will
increase the profit of the dealers because of the increased value of the
boosterpacks and single cards
it might even encourage dealers, who didn't handle vampire before, to
include it in their assortiments.
more people will be seeing the game that way and maybe more free
promotion will be made by the dealers and more selling points will be
introduced
al this will result can only result outcomes in favor of the tournament
scene...
> In the long run, foils will not help the game in any significant way.
even it's true (and i say it's not), it's not an argument against foils
even is does help the game in the short run, it's helping the game
so something that is A helping the game and B does not do bad things for
the game is positive, right?
> New cards every 6-9 months will do wonders for the game.
again, not an argument against foils
i agree that bringing out new cards is very good for the game, but does
that contradict with the inroduction of foils?
> Just Say No, to foils.
>
> Carpe Noctem.
>
> Lasombra
>
> http://members.tripod.com/~Lasombra
>
mfgr...@my-deja.com
cyru...@my-deja.com wrote:
> I don't think Vampire needs foils for they will
> only hurt the game.
>
> 1)They will cause boosters to sell for what ever
> a retailer can get for them. (example pokemon
> 2.99 sells for 4.99 cause everyone is buying them
> for the foils and because of supply and demand.)
this can be avoided when the print run is big enough
and i don't think that we can compare the demand for pokemon with that
of vampire (not yet!!!)
and even when demand is so big, it will be regardless of the foils
the situation you describe has nothing to do with the inclusion of foils
i think
> 2) Has there ever been a bad no selling expansion
> for V:TES?
I don't think so, but is foils can upgrade a good selling expantion in a
very good selling expantion, foils are still a good thing
> So in my personal view they can only hurt.
i hold the opposite view
Saliib
> > In article <8fghb2$bl3$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
> > mfgr...@my-deja.com wrote:
> > > I would like to know what people would think of the idea to
include
> > > premium foil cards in the next expantion
Does the presence or absence of Foils dramatically affect the sales of
CCG's to collectors? Now I don't mean collector-players, because
players - regardless of what other games/interests they have - will buy
the cards anyway. That's why they are called players.
But if Foils were not produced for VTES, would sales be severely hurt?
There weren't foils before, and the game went out of print. Is there
an advantage for players to have foils in their decks?
Keep in mind that this game has been around for many years. The re-
release of VTES will introduce some new cards, but many will be the
same. It was not _overly_ successful before, why would it be
successful now? New marketing? New marketing with foils?
It's obvious that Foils were not considered for the first re-release.
Steven Wieck's comment suggests that they were not considered at all
until recently. Some nifty shiny coat, and _maybe_ different artwork
for the same type (meaning game mechanics) of card. Big deal. From
the companies point of view, I would think that foils would be a bigger
expense for a game that wasn't a big money maker to begin with.
And after all is said and done, you have to convince the stores to
carry the game once again. The same stores that had to sell off their
stock for pennies just to make room on the shelves.
I, personally, don't see any advantage to foils. If WW wants to market
them, then hey. I'll be the first one to open my list to trade since I
don't want to pay the expense of putting sleeves on my cards.
All right, I'll get off my soap box now.
Saliib Alcalah
Black Hand Remover
Noal McDonald
> BTW, White Wolf and WOTC still co-own V:TES. We simply reversed the
> license for it, so now we publish it and pay WOTC a royalty on sales
> rather than vice versa.
I missed this comment and didn't notice it until another poster referred
to it. The above comment has some important side effects on the game
other than White Wolf's business model. I believe it also means that
the backs will remain intact, including the "Deckmaster" logo.
Very cool. *nods* One less bullet for the community to bite.
Noal McDonald
--
"What you cannot enforce, do not command."
-- Socrates
mfgr...@my-deja.com
Saliib <sal...@my-deja.com> wrote:
>
> > > In article <8fghb2$bl3$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
> > > mfgr...@my-deja.com wrote:
> > > > I would like to know what people would think of the idea to
> include
> > > > premium foil cards in the next expantion
>
> Does the presence or absence of Foils dramatically affect the sales of
> CCG's to collectors?
it irrelevant if the sales are affected dramatically
if they improve sales just a little bit more than it costs to produce
them they should be introduced, or not?
> But if Foils were not produced for VTES, would sales be severely hurt?
same argument, see above
> There weren't foils before, and the game went out of print.
is that an argument not to introduce foils?, i say it is one argument
for the opossite view
Is there an advantage for players to have foils in their decks?
it's an advantage for the game as a whole if some players think they are
cool and buy more cards because of that.
> Keep in mind that this game has been around for many years. The re-
> release of VTES will introduce some new cards, but many will be the
> same. It was not _overly_ successful before, why would it be
> successful now? New marketing? New marketing with foils?
Not an argument against foils, i'm not saying foils can save whole
vampire, i'm saying they help the game a bit
>
It's obvious that Foils were not considered for the first re-release.
> Steven Wieck's comment suggests that they were not considered at all
> until recently.
does that mean that, because it hasn't be considered before, it's a bad
idea?
Some nifty shiny coat, and _maybe_ different artwork
> for the same type (meaning game mechanics) of card. Big deal.
you don't have to like them, but if some people do and buy more cards
because of that, it will help the game en eventually it will help you
From
> the companies point of view, I would think that foils would be a
bigger
> expense for a game that wasn't a big money maker to begin with.
that's a good argument, as i've said before some analysis must be made
to make sure that more money is earned than lost
but that's not my or your job, leave that to WW who has much more
insight in their own numbers
> And after all is said and done, you have to convince the stores to
> carry the game once again. The same stores that had to sell off their
> stock for pennies just to make room on the shelves.
convincing dealers is easier with foils, dealers like them because they
make money out of them
> I, personally, don't see any advantage to foils. If WW wants to
market
> them, then hey. I'll be the first one to open my list to trade since
I
> don't want to pay the expense of putting sleeves on my cards.
my point exactly, if you don't like them just trade them away for a
profit
i am not saying that foils is the thing that vampire needs to grow
towards the state we all want (as i think you're suggesting) i'm saying
(as long as a financial analysis makes sure they generate money) that
foils might help the game a bit because more boosters will be sold
> All right, I'll get off my soap box now.
>
> Saliib Alcalah
> Black Hand Remover
>
Tom Longwell
cyru...@my-deja.com wrote:
>
> I don't think Vampire needs foils for they will
> only hurt the game.
>
> 1)They will cause boosters to sell for what ever
> a retailer can get for them. (example pokemon
> 2.99 sells for 4.99 cause everyone is buying them
> for the foils and because of supply and demand.)
>
> 2) Has there ever been a bad no selling expansion
> for V:TES?
(snip what this was a reply to)
Two points: In response to #1, this is just economics. A retailer will
always sell cards for the price that generates the highest profits.
Simple supply and demand. Price mirrors demand, so for two sets with
identical print runs the more desired set will sell for more than the
other. White Wolf is operating under similiar logic; they also want to
maximize profits. If retailers are selling cards for $4.99 a pack, they
will print more, because they gain the same benefit for an already sold
batch whether the retail price is $2.99 or $4.99. To answer your
concern: if cards are selling for $4.99 when the set comes out, White
Wolf will keep printing cards. Since they assumedly can make money at
$2.99 retail, they will keep printing when the retail price is at that
level. White Wolf knows about all of this, and I have faith that they
will not stop printing until the demands of both players and collectors
have been met.
Point 2: In response to #2: Yes, basically all of them! Jyhad and Dark
Sovereigns are still readily available, and V:TES, AH and Sabbat took
years to sell out. The fact that Wizards was unable to make money on
the game led to their discontinuation of new sets. We cannot assume
that the Vampire franchise is an excuse to print money. If we want new
cards, we must be willing to let White Wolf do what they must to make
money off it. I am not saying I will pay $4.99 a pack, but if White
Wolf needs and wants to print foils to sell more cards, I say they
should, so long as it doesn't interfere with the ability to sell the
game to players. I'm sure their economist agrees.
-T
Markus Reinsch
>
> Jyhad and Dark Sovereigns are still readily available,
Not everywhere. Over here in Germany the only thing you can get is the
basic set Vampire.
Markus Prince of Mannheim, Germany
NP: Marilyn Manson - Sweet Dreams
prea...@utanet.at
"Steve Wieck" <steve...@white-wolf.com> wrote:
> Well, I appreciate seeing this topic discussed, and I'm never opposed
to
> those who look out for White Wolf's economic interests! (and thereby
their
> own to keep this game running again). Initially my gut tells me foils
would
> not thematically be appropriate for V:TES, but I'll run this by some
of our
> graphic designers and see if it interests them. Perhaps we can find
some
> nice black foils that would actually be attractive and evocative
rather than
> flashy and gaudy. "How much more black can it be?"
It has to be stunningly black. :)
Steve, I think foils might be a "cool" addition to the game. However
they would have to meet at least two requirements:
1. They'd have to fit into the "feel" of the game; the black foils you
mentioned would certainly go that way. :)
2. The foils would have to be duplicates of normal rare cards, with no
special text, and I even think that artwork should stay the same. There
should not be some ultra-rare chase cards, even if they were not ultra-
powerful. If they were rarer versions of existing cards (in the same
set) then you could trade them away, or use them, just as you seem
appropriate.
A handful of these foils would suffice. I think I would be totally
screwed if I had to collect a *whole set of foils*! :(
Also, the foils would have to have a fixed trade-value, e.g. one foil
equals 3 rare cards, or something like that. :)
Just my 2 pool,
Carl
Markus Reinsch
>
> A handful of these foils would suffice. I think I would be totally
> screwed if I had to collect a *whole set of foils*! :(
Sounds like the '96 edition of Fleer-Ultra XMan. 1 base set, 4 "subsets"
of special cards AND the base set with printed signatures of the
artists. Yeow!!
> Also, the foils would have to have a fixed trade-value, e.g. one foil
> equals 3 rare cards, or something like that. :)
I think if there will be foils in Sabbat War its not a matter of WW for
how much you can trade them then a matter of how much players/collectors
want for it and how much they wan´t to "pay" for them. Well, wait and
see.
So long,
Markus, V:EKN Prince of Mannheim, Germany
NP: Metallica - The Unforgiven II
James Coupe
> > flashy and gaudy. "How much more black can it be?"
>
> It has to be stunningly black. :)
A rippling purply black could look very classy.
mfgr...@my-deja.com
<Pine.SOL.4.21.00051...@orange.csi.cam.ac.uk>,
James Coupe <ja...@zephyr.org.uk> wrote:
> On Wed, 17 May 2000 prea...@utanet.at wrote:
>
> > > flashy and gaudy. "How much more black can it be?"
> >
> > It has to be stunningly black. :)
>
> A rippling purply black could look very classy.
i think we all agree that is has to be something black
and, ww, don't ever print white-bordered vampire cards!
> --
> James Coupe | PGP Key 0x5D623D5D
> "But I don't have the right to be with you tonight, so please leave me
> alone with no saviour in sight. I will sleep safe and sound with
nobody
> around me."
>
>
mfgr...@my-deja.com
prea...@utanet.at wrote:
> In article <BMZS4.6791$LM4.4...@monger.newsread.com>,
> "Steve Wieck" <steve...@white-wolf.com> wrote:
> > Well, I appreciate seeing this topic discussed, and I'm never
opposed
> to
> > those who look out for White Wolf's economic interests! (and thereby
> their
> > own to keep this game running again). Initially my gut tells me
foils
> would
> > not thematically be appropriate for V:TES, but I'll run this by some
> of our
> > graphic designers and see if it interests them. Perhaps we can find
> some
> > nice black foils that would actually be attractive and evocative
> rather than
>
> It has to be stunningly black. :)
>
> Steve, I think foils might be a "cool" addition to the game. However
> they would have to meet at least two requirements:
>
> 1. They'd have to fit into the "feel" of the game; the black foils you
> mentioned would certainly go that way. :)
Yep
>
> 2. The foils would have to be duplicates of normal rare cards, with no
> special text, and I even think that artwork should stay the same.
There
> should not be some ultra-rare chase cards, even if they were not
ultra-
> powerful.
>
Yep
> A handful of these foils would suffice. I think I would be totally
> screwed if I had to collect a *whole set of foils*! :(
I think, if only one or two sets each year are released,a complete set
of foils is affordable
> Also, the foils would have to have a fixed trade-value, e.g. one foil
> equals 3 rare cards, or something like that. :)
I agree with Markus here, you can't determine the value like thta, let
the market do it's work
>
> Just my 2 pool,
>
> Carl
>
jan willem wijsman
actually want them ?
Apart from the effects on the sales (which are all hypothetical, because
the're based on the effects it had with other games. Though they are
also card games, I think Vtes in general has players that aren't really
interested in fancy shiny cards), which is nice for WW, but in the end
WW depends on the support of the vtes players and their interest in the
game.
One of the interests of the players is to have a game that sells well so
it'll be in the running for a long time. That's a good argument
ofcourse, but I think the most important reason for WW to produce foil
cards is that if their customers would like to see them, they'll produce
them.
Thus far the arguments 'pro foil', (IMO) are taken from the opposite
point of view: 'because we would like to see Vtes in print again, it's
oke for WW to include foil-cards, to improve their profits'.
IMO, the argument that a sales enhancement will also keep the game
longer in the running should be discussed apart from the question
whether or not the players really want foil-cards (to collect them,
because they look nice, etc.).
A good way of finding out whether the players would like to have foil
cards, is to take a poll. Why not on this newsgroup?
mfgr...@my-deja.com
jwwi...@hotmail.com wrote:
> One argument against foil cards I haven't seen yet: do the players
> actually want them ?
> Apart from the effects on the sales (which are all hypothetical,
because
> the're based on the effects it had with other games. Though they are
> also card games, I think Vtes in general has players that aren't
really
> interested in fancy shiny cards), which is nice for WW, but in the end
> WW depends on the support of the vtes players and their interest in
the
> game.
> One of the interests of the players is to have a game that sells well
so
> it'll be in the running for a long time. That's a good argument
> ofcourse, but I think the most important reason for WW to produce foil
> cards is that if their customers would like to see them, they'll
produce
> them.
> Thus far the arguments 'pro foil', (IMO) are taken from the opposite
> point of view: 'because we would like to see Vtes in print again, it's
> oke for WW to include foil-cards, to improve their profits'.
agreed
> IMO, the argument that a sales enhancement will also keep the game
> longer in the running should be discussed apart from the question
> whether or not the players really want foil-cards (to collect them,
> because they look nice, etc.).
Why should it be discussed seperately?
foils will only act as a sales enhancement if some people are buying
more cards because of them.
and i don't think that the statement that sales enchancement will keep
the game in the running needs defense.
does anybody disagree?
> A good way of finding out whether the players would like to have foil
> cards, is to take a poll. Why not on this newsgroup?
might be an idea if we get most people on the newsgroup to vote
btw, are you by any chance Dutch? your name suggests so
jan willem wijsman
Very true, however I think that argument is taken from the wrong view,
namely the business interests of WW. I hope the do well ofcourse, but I
don't see an imperative need for foils from the view of the buyers.
(except perhaps the collectors). If for example a poll would say a
majority of vtes players would like foils (purely based on whether they
like foils or they don't; this could be achieved by asking the right
kind of questions, for example: 'Do you like Foil-cards to be included
in the SW exp? Would You buy more boosters (probably displays) if
Foil-cards were included in them?), than it would make sense to start
discussing in what format the Foils should appear in the Sabbat War exp.
> > A good way of finding out whether the players would like to have foil
> > cards, is to take a poll. Why not on this newsgroup?
>
> might be an idea if we get most people on the newsgroup to vote
> btw, are you by any chance Dutch? your name suggests so
Yep.
Cheers to Tim
legb...@my-deja.com
>
> Very true, however I think that argument is taken from the wrong view,
> namely the business interests of WW. I hope the do well ofcourse, but I
> don't see an imperative need for foils from the view of the buyers.
> (except perhaps the collectors).
Sorry, i don't agree with this. i think the ONLY possible reason to put
foils in is to help White Wolf make money from the game. If they make
money from the game they will print more cards and expansions which will
be good for us as players.
It's very important [to this end] that correct decisions are taken quite
early on, and White Wolf i'm sure are well aware of this, because they
already have a LOT of experience in CCGs, most of it bad. White Wolf are
actually VERY GOOD at the design side of the CCG market - they produced
two really innovative CCGs all by their little selves in the form of rage
and Arcadia. Unfortunately their track record on the commercial side is
less good - Rage was VERY heavily over-published so that despite being a
success in terms of card sold it was a commercial failure [or so i have
heard - i expect Steve will correct me if this is misinformation].
Arcadia was just a failure, possibly because almost nobody except my
friend Marianne wants to play at being a fairy, or possibly because it
wasn't really a CCG as we understand CCGs - more like a free-form version
of Talisman. i think it's a great and courageous decision by White Wolf
to take on yet another CCG having had their talons burned twice already.
If for example a poll would say a
> majority of vtes players would like foils (purely based on whether they
> like foils or they don't; this could be achieved by asking the right
> kind of questions, for example: 'Do you like Foil-cards to be included
> in the SW exp? Would You buy more boosters (probably displays) if
> Foil-cards were included in them?), than it would make sense to start
> discussing in what format the Foils should appear in the Sabbat War exp.
I think you are right to make the point that much depends on whether the
players and collectors want foils and will buy them. But i would be
AMAZED if people hated foils so much that they wouldn't buy the game
because it had foil cards in it.
jan willem wijsman
>
> <snip>
> >
> > Very true, however I think that argument is taken from the wrong view,
> > namely the business interests of WW. I hope the do well ofcourse, but I
> > don't see an imperative need for foils from the view of the buyers.
> > (except perhaps the collectors).
>
> Sorry, i don't agree with this. i think the ONLY possible reason to put
> foils in is to help White Wolf make money from the game. If they make
> money from the game they will print more cards and expansions which will
> be good for us as players.
Yes, I think You got a point there, but the way You put it (correct me
if I'm wrong) it's as if WW will only make money if they put in foils,
and I don't think You can say that without some further explanation.
Comparing other CCG's with Vtes is a way to do that, but again it's very
hypothetical. You don't know the inside corporate decisions of WW, or
Wizards of the coast for example. Maybe Vtes was a very profitable game
under Wizards, but they had Magic, which was even more successfull. Put
this next to the matter of limited printing capacity and there's just as
good an argument, drawn from the comparison with other CCG's, but this
time from an opposite point of view.
It's not that the players who hate Foils won't buy Vtes anymore, but I
don't think that's the real issue here. IMO the real issue is what the
players want, considered apart from business interests of WW.
I could summarize the situation like this: if WW would make just as much
money, or if they would produce Vtes just as long with Foils or without
them, would You then still like to see Foils included ?
About foils: perhaps it can be proven that, if printed, they enhance
sales on short term notice. But Foils are one of the reasons that I
started to really dislike Magic. If there are more players like me who
don't like the shiny fancy pancy foils, and they also start to dislike a
game, that could have a negative effect on sales, but more in the long
run. So by saying that foils 'guarantee' a longer run of Vtes, You're
forgetting to tell that in the long run the players also have to keep
liking the game for its continuing success.
greetz,
Tammy, Chris, and Alex Shorb
collector mentality -
No one will start picking up V:TES *only* because it has foils.
People who are already into V:TES (read players) may buy extra -
mgrieff's point that players are collectors also is valid (but not all
players are collectors). However, it will not bring *new* people to
buy the game. What will bring new folks I think are as follows -
1.) White Wolf is publishing a CCG based on Vampire the Masquerade.
"Cool, I love the RPG, maybe I will also love the CCG" (a person who
found the World of Darkness within the past few years, after Jyhad's
initial splash)
2.) White Wolf is publishing V:TES/Jyhad - "Cool, I used to play, but
I can't stand Wizards for x reason" (little do they know that WotC
still gets a piece of it, but we can keep that secret, can't we?)
3.) A new expansion for a game they haven't heard about for years
"They still make new stuff for that game?" (If I had a dime for every
time someone says that when we are playing in the store...)
Foils might make those of us who are collector/players spend more.
But we are a group who complain about paying retail price for Jyhad
($2.75/booster, in case you didn't know...), so I am in no way
convinced that there will be more/enough sales due to foils. You will
have to increase sales at least the percentage more that the foils
cost to have in the set (at least 10% of total cost, I imagine). Do
you think 1 in 10 players will buy twice as much (11 tenths therefore
= 110%)? I honestly don't think so. Maybe 1 in 20.
And as someone mentioned, a lot of the current new players (within the
last 2-3 years or so) are folks who were attracted to the fact that
here was a game that had great support in the form of V:EKN and the
DCI, but was cheap as dirt to start being competetive ($25 for a
booster box of Jyhad).
Also, to confirm Anklebiter's observations, I have noticed that the
foils on my Major League Baseball Showdown 2000 curl different than
the unfoiled. I imagine that that would present a problem for good
shuffling.
Finally, just because it only costs 10% more (or whatever) to put foil
cards into the set, I don't think you will get 10% more orders from
the retail sector because of it. The retailers will just be happy to
sell out of their box that much quicker, but their intial orders will
still be veeeery conservative.
My 2 lira.
Chris
The Lasombra wrote:
>
> In article <8fghb2$bl3$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
> mfgr...@my-deja.com wrote:
> > I would like to know what people would think of the idea to include
> > premium foil cards in the next expantion
> > it would give collectors a challange and will propably raise the
> > amount of cards sold because of the increased value of a booster pack
> > the same seems to have happened with Magic the gathering, the "mother"
> > of all cards games The counterargument presented when is was
> > discussed whether foils in magic are a good idea was that it makes
> > the game too commercialised and it was just an other idea to get
> > more money this holds for vampire too, and a very commercial approach
> > doesn't quite fit the atmosphere of the game
>
> As a collector and player, (and sometime card seller), I would be very
> much against foil cards of any sort in this most wondrous of games.
>
> The cards that sell are the cards that are playable. Everyone and
> their brother wants Disarms because they are eminently playable, no one
> except the collector trying to finish a collection wants Children of
> Osiris. Once the collection is complete, the collector stops buying.
> When a new deck idea strikes a player, he will buy cards again.
>
> Collectors are not repeat customers, players are.
>
> In the long run, foils will not help the game in any significant way.
>
> New cards every 6-9 months will do wonders for the game.
>
> Just Say No, to foils.
>
> Carpe Noctem.
>
> Lasombra
>
> http://members.tripod.com/~Lasombra
>
> Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
> Before you buy.
--
Tammy Shorb 5'7"
Alexander Shorb 2'10"
Chris Shorb 5'11"
Shameless plug:
<http://www.graphicnovels.com/>
Jeffrey Moore
games and needs no gimmicks. Be above the others. Keep it cold and
mean.
Jeff
Prince of Cleveland
Steve Wieck
buyer (for cost) and we determined NOT to do any foils for the Sabbat War
expansion.
Thanks for raising the topic and for all the discussion.
Regards,
Stephan Wieck
White Wolf
www.white-wolf.com
Markus Reinsch
>
> I've discussed this internally here at W with our grpahics folks and print
> buyer (for cost) and we determined NOT to do any foils for the Sabbat War
> expansion.
>
> Thanks for raising the topic and for all the discussion.
ThanX for not doing it!
Markus, V:EKN Prince of Mannheim, Germany
NP: Illuminate - Bluetenstaub
mfgr...@my-deja.com
"Steve Wieck" <steve...@white-wolf.com> wrote:
> I've discussed this internally here at W with our grpahics folks and
> buyer (for cost) and we determined NOT to do any foils for the Sabbat
War
> expansion.
Does his mean that there might be a possibility that foils are
considered in other future expansion sets, or are they completely
disregarded forever?
> Thanks for raising the topic and for all the discussion.
>
> Regards,
>
> Stephan Wieck
> White Wolf
> www.white-wolf.com
>
>
Chris Shorb
chris
Steve Wieck wrote:
>
> I've discussed this internally here at W with our grpahics folks and print
> buyer (for cost) and we determined NOT to do any foils for the Sabbat War
> expansion.
>
> Thanks for raising the topic and for all the discussion.
>
> Regards,
>
> Stephan Wieck
> White Wolf
> www.white-wolf.com
--
chris
ultimate disc - V:TES - hockey
v:ekn prince of torrance, ca
Steve Wieck
> Does his mean that there might be a possibility that foils are
> considered in other future expansion sets, or are they completely
> disregarded forever?
I'd place it as unlikely but not beyond consideration for future sets.