A New Jones Question - LSJ
Raille
Target Vitals.
Minion B then Plays a SUP Jones.
When Minion A chooses a new hand strike, does the Original Target Vitals
apply to the new Hand strike?
Raille
LSJ
No. The Jones is played as the strike card is played (before the Target Vitals
is played). Like using DI to cancel a Govern with Seduction.
XZealot
How is the Jones which is used to cancel STRIKE CARDS able to cancel a
default hand strike, which is cardless?
Comments Welcome,
Norman S. Brown, Jr
XZealot
Archon of the Swamp
LSJ
> On Feb 14, 5:42 am, LSJ <vtes...@white-wolf.com> wrote:
>> Raille wrote:
>>> Minion A declares a hand strike and as the strike is declared announces
>>> Target Vitals.
>>> Minion B then Plays a SUP Jones.
>>> When Minion A chooses a new hand strike, does the Original Target Vitals
>>> apply to the new Hand strike?
>> No. The Jones is played as the strike card is played (before the Target Vitals
>> is played). Like using DI to cancel a Govern with Seduction.
>
> How is the Jones which is used to cancel STRIKE CARDS able to cancel a
> default hand strike, which is cardless?
Maybe the hand strike was a Lucky Blow. He didn't say it was a DEFAULT hand strike.
Substitute in the appropriate strike card in order to find the question that was
intended (and answered).
XZealot
He is specifically talking about a game that we are in right now where
I struck him with the cardless default hand strike plus Target
Vitals.
He is trying to play the Jones to cancel Target Vitals.
From card text, this is not possible. Your ruling says it is
possible. Which is it?
LSJ
Kindly refrain from painting conflict where there is none.
The ruling above does not address the default hand strike, as noted above.
Target Vitals is not a strike. It is not a strike card. It cannot be canceled by
The Jones.
If there were a card used to strike, then The Jones could be used to cancel it.
Card text.
In both cases, card text is followed.
The "ruling", where it is more than simply "card text", merely says that The
Jones would be played in the "as played" window of the strike card, prior to the
playing of the aim card.
The ruling, therefore, has no bearing on your case, since your case has no
strike card in the first place.
Raille
"LSJ" <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote in message
news:eHZsj.532$Mh2...@nlpi069.nbdc.sbc.com...
So the correctly applied the JOnes Card migration voids many prvious Jones
Questions and rulings.
I bet this isn't on the migration page.
Raille
LSJ
>> that was intended (and answered).
>
> So the correctly applied the JOnes Card migration voids many prvious Jones
> Questions and rulings.
Well, it makes the few "can it cancel a non-card-play strike"? questions
obsolete, yes.
Sorry about that.
> I bet this isn't on the migration page.
That's a safe bet, since the migration page is older than the LotN set in which
The Jones was reprinted.
XZealot
I'm just trying to avoid any confusion down the road.
> The ruling above does not address the default hand strike, as noted above.
Great!
> Target Vitals is not a strike. It is not a strike card. It cannot be canceled by
> The Jones.
Also Great!
> If there were a card used to strike, then The Jones could be used to cancel it.
> Card text.
>
> In both cases, card text is followed.
>
> The "ruling", where it is more than simply "card text", merely says that The
> Jones would be played in the "as played" window of the strike card, prior to the
> playing of the aim card.
>
> The ruling, therefore, has no bearing on your case, since your case has no
> strike card in the first place.
Sounds good, so he couldn't have played the Jones in the first place,
correct?
Chris Berger
used Lucky Blow or Undead Strength instead of a default hand strike),
he still couldn't keep you from playing Target: Vitals, since he has
to play the Jones before you play T:V, and you could still play T:V on
your new chosen strike. At least, from what I understand of what LSJ
is saying.
LSJ
Correct.
Similarly, if the original text of The Jones were being used, then the Jones
could be played on the default hand strike, but still that would be before the
aim card was played. Meaning the target vampire could just choose the same hand
strike (again) and then, when that choice remains uncanceled, play the aim card.
Raille
Are you sure that its correct in reference to the timeing issue?
Vitals indicates it must be played when you declare the strike.
Normally when a minion is acting or otherwise performing some sort of card
play, all pertenant cards must be played at that time
There are a host of cards that are tied to another function.
So if an game function is declared, doen't all aspects of that need to be on
the table before the other minion counters?
This ruling effects DI's and other things, so I want to get it right.
If I declare a +bleed and play Mantle of the moon(or insert appropirate
card) does another methulas playing DI get to jump in prior to mantle to Di
the +1 bleed card?
Mantle:
Only usable as the action is announced.This action is unblockable.
DI:
Master: out-of-turn. Cancel a minion card as it is played. That card has no
effect. No cost is paid. If the burned card was an action card, the acting
minion remains untapped. If the card was a strike card, the minion chooses
another strike.
Jones
Only usable in combat with an ally or younger vampire. [ser] Strike: dodge,
with an optional press, only usable to end combat. [SER] Cancel the opposing
minion`s strike card as it is declared. No cost is paid. The opposing minion
gets a new opportunity to declare a strike. A vampire may play only one The
Jones at superior each round.
So to sum up when does the acting minion do not have to play as declared
cards before the reacting minion gets to play as declared cards?
Both types require the cards to be played as declared. Someone has to go
first and precident is the playing/acting minion does.
Hope this isn't too rambly. Myhead doesn't seem to want to get with the
program today.
Raille
Salem
> DI:
> Master: out-of-turn. Cancel a minion card as it is played. That card has no
> effect. No cost is paid. If the burned card was an action card, the acting
> minion remains untapped. If the card was a strike card, the minion chooses
> another strike.
>
> Jones
> Only usable in combat with an ally or younger vampire. [ser] Strike: dodge,
> with an optional press, only usable to end combat. [SER] Cancel the opposing
> minion`s strike card as it is declared. No cost is paid. The opposing minion
> gets a new opportunity to declare a strike. A vampire may play only one The
> Jones at superior each round.
>
> So to sum up when does the acting minion do not have to play as declared
> cards before the reacting minion gets to play as declared cards?
>
> Both types require the cards to be played as declared. Someone has to go
> first and precident is the playing/acting minion does.
Not quite right. DI is played when a card is played. 'As a card is
played' sort of squeaks in before 'as X is announced/declared'. Even
though they sort of happen at the same time. This is necessary to get DI
to work at the right time.
However, I am not sure how the Jones's use of the 'as declared' rather
than 'as played' would still allow it to get played before a Target card.
--
salem
(replace 'hotmail' with 'yahoo' to email)
LSJ
> "LSJ" <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote in message
> news:MLstj.590$tW....@nlpi070.nbdc.sbc.com...
>> Chris Berger wrote:
>>> On Feb 15, 7:26 am, XZealot <xzea...@cox.net> wrote:
>>>> On Feb 14, 9:35 pm, LSJ <vtes...@white-wolf.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> The ruling, therefore, has no bearing on your case, since your case has
>>>>> no
>>>>> strike card in the first place.
>>>> Sounds good, so he couldn't have played the Jones in the first place,
>>>> correct?
>>>>
>>> Even if he could cancel your strike in the first place (say you had
>>> used Lucky Blow or Undead Strength instead of a default hand strike),
>>> he still couldn't keep you from playing Target: Vitals, since he has
>>> to play the Jones before you play T:V, and you could still play T:V on
>>> your new chosen strike. At least, from what I understand of what LSJ
>>> is saying.
>> Correct.
>>
>> Similarly, if the original text of The Jones were being used, then the
>> Jones could be played on the default hand strike, but still that would be
>> before the aim card was played. Meaning the target vampire could just
>> choose the same hand strike (again) and then, when that choice remains
>> uncanceled, play the aim card.
>
> Are you sure that its correct in reference to the timeing issue?
Yes.
> Vitals indicates it must be played when you declare the strike.
Yes, like Seduction indicates it must be played when you declare the action.
> Normally when a minion is acting or otherwise performing some sort of card
> play, all pertenant cards must be played at that time
> There are a host of cards that are tied to another function.
Yes, except for "cancel a thing" effects, which, by necessity, are handled as
interrupts rather than being handled in the usual sequence.
> So if an game function is declared, doen't all aspects of that need to be on
> the table before the other minion counters?
No.
> This ruling effects DI's and other things, so I want to get it right.
Yes, this matches the DI rulings. As in the Govern with Seduction and DI the
Govern example mentioned earlier in the thread.
> If I declare a +bleed and play Mantle of the moon(or insert appropirate
> card) does another methulas playing DI get to jump in prior to mantle to Di
> the +1 bleed card?
The DI is played "as" the card to be canceled is played (before the next effect
is played).
If by "a +bleed" you mean some action card (say, Computer Hacking), then yes, DI
can cancel that card as it is played (before the action actually starts, and
before Mantle or Seduction can be played).
> Mantle:
> Only usable as the action is announced.This action is unblockable.
>
> DI:
> Master: out-of-turn. Cancel a minion card as it is played. That card has no
> effect. No cost is paid. If the burned card was an action card, the acting
> minion remains untapped. If the card was a strike card, the minion chooses
> another strike.
>
> Jones
> Only usable in combat with an ally or younger vampire. [ser] Strike: dodge,
> with an optional press, only usable to end combat. [SER] Cancel the opposing
> minion`s strike card as it is declared. No cost is paid. The opposing minion
> gets a new opportunity to declare a strike. A vampire may play only one The
> Jones at superior each round.
>
> So to sum up when does the acting minion do not have to play as declared
> cards before the reacting minion gets to play as declared cards?
To sum up: cards that cancel other cards or effects "as played" are played as
the card/effect to be canceled is played/announced.
> Both types require the cards to be played as declared. Someone has to go
> first and precident is the playing/acting minion does.
Seduction is played in the "as declared" window of the action. That is a long
time period compare to the instantaneous "as played" window in which cancelers
are played.
Salem
> Raille wrote:
>> So to sum up when does the acting minion do not have to play as
>> declared cards before the reacting minion gets to play as declared cards?
>
> To sum up: cards that cancel other cards or effects "as played" are
> played as the card/effect to be canceled is played/announced.
>
>> Both types require the cards to be played as declared. Someone has to
>> go first and precident is the playing/acting minion does.
>
> Seduction is played in the "as declared" window of the action. That is a
> long time period compare to the instantaneous "as played" window in
> which cancelers are played.
Aha. I was getting confused because The Jones text as quoted earlier in
this thread stated 'as declared'. However, the online text has 'as
played'. This is good. :)
The Jones [FN:C2/PS2, LotN:PS3]
Cardtype: Combat
Discipline: Serpentis
Only usable in combat with an ally or younger vampire.
[ser] Strike: dodge, with an optional press, only usable to end combat.
[SER] Cancel the opposing minion's strike card as it is played. (No cost
is paid, and the minion chooses another strike). A vampire may play only
one The Jones at superior each round.
--
Raille
Thanks for the replies.
It has help clear things up for me.
Raille