Chimestry / Animalism combo - is this legit LSJ?
hamd...@my-deja.com
Joaquina (the Ravnos) attempts to play sensory deprevation on a minion
controlled by her prey.
She is intercepted.
She plays Dawn Operation (at superior) and Drawing Out the Beast.
Opponant fears for his existence!
Joaquina then plays Illusions of Kindred.
Question 1...
Does the damage from DotB apply now (Illusions card text states "Combat
Ends...")?
Question 2...
If the damage does resolve now, can the Illusionary vampire now play
Amaranth?
DH
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
skaffen_...@my-deja.com
hamd...@my-deja.com wrote:
> OK, here's a scenario...
>
> Joaquina (the Ravnos) attempts to play sensory deprevation on a minion
> controlled by her prey.
>
> She is intercepted.
>
> She plays Dawn Operation (at superior) and Drawing Out the Beast.
>
> Opponant fears for his existence!
>
> Joaquina then plays Illusions of Kindred.
>
Oh my God – you didn't come up with this while thinking about another Normal
deck, did you? Because last evening my thoughts were wandering in the same
direction, after you answered my "challenge" down in the other thread so
swiftly – something like "Is everthing Normal again?" with him being the
illusionary vampire every time and blowing stuff up with disguised bombs...
About your questions, we should leave this to LSJ, but here's what I think:
> Question 1...
>
> Does the damage from DotB apply now (Illusions card text states "Combat
> Ends...")?
>
It should, thus sending the opposing vampire to torpor.
> Question 2...
>
> If the damage does resolve now, can the Illusionary vampire now play
> Amaranth?
>
No, because there is no combat due to lack of an opponent.
Regards
Skaffen
Chantry Elder Of Munich
"Our hearts discern wild images of Death,
Shadows and shoals that edge eternity."
hamd...@my-deja.com
skaffen_...@my-deja.com wrote:
> In article <8smbu2$hhn$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
> hamd...@my-deja.com wrote:
> > OK, here's a scenario...
> >
> > Joaquina (the Ravnos) attempts to play sensory deprevation on a
minion
> > controlled by her prey.
> >
> > She is intercepted.
> >
> > She plays Dawn Operation (at superior) and Drawing Out the Beast.
> >
> > Opponant fears for his existence!
> >
> > Joaquina then plays Illusions of Kindred.
> >
>
> Oh my God – you didn't come up with this while thinking about another
Normal
> deck, did you? Because last evening my thoughts were wandering in the
same
> direction, after you answered my "challenge" down in the other thread
so
> swiftly – something like "Is everthing Normal again?" with him being
the
> illusionary vampire every time and blowing stuff up with disguised
bombs...
Oooohhhh!!! I hadn't thought of that. Good work fella!! My thinking was
more along the lines of the Illusionary vampire Horrid Reality-ing a
bomb, coz then you only need one in the deck (I think!).
Question 3
If this happened, would the bomb return into the deck (assuming sup HR
text) or ash heap?
> About your questions, we should leave this to LSJ, but here's what I
think:
>
> > Question 1...
> >
> > Does the damage from DotB apply now (Illusions card text
states "Combat
> > Ends...")?
> >
>
> It should, thus sending the opposing vampire to torpor.
>
> > Question 2...
> >
> > If the damage does resolve now, can the Illusionary vampire now play
> > Amaranth?
> >
>
> No, because there is no combat due to lack of an opponent.
Hmmm... well, I thought I read somewhere that Amaranth is effectively
an action modifier (since it is played just outside of combat).
Therefore the lack of an opponent fits in with the card text of
Amaranth. Doesn't it?
David Hammond
skaffen_...@my-deja.com
> Oooohhhh!!! I hadn't thought of that. Good work fella!! My thinking was
> more along the lines of the Illusionary vampire Horrid Reality-ing a
> bomb, coz then you only need one in the deck (I think!).
>
I'd rather use a Flame Thrower...
<snip>
>
> Hmmm... well, I thought I read somewhere that Amaranth is effectively
> an action modifier (since it is played just outside of combat).
> Therefore the lack of an opponent fits in with the card text of
> Amaranth. Doesn't it?
>
Card text:
Amaranth (Jyhad, V:TES) Combat [Only usable by a vampire who can commit
diablerie]. Diablerize an opposing vampire rather than sending that vampire
into torpor. Not usable by a vampire going into torpor.
So Joaquina could play Amaranth, but not the illusionary vampire, because he
was not the one sending the opponent to torpor. Guess it's the same situation
as if say Normal ;-) tried to play Hidden Lurker and Amaranth after Joaquina
ended the combat – he can't do that because again there is no one to fight
against, and he couldn't play Amaranth because he's not the one that
torporized. Same goes for Illusions, just that the combat ends is part of
this card's effect – the rest fizzles.
Regards
Skaffen
Chantry Elder Of Munich
"Our hearts discern wild images of Death,
Shadows and shoals that edge eternity."
hamd...@my-deja.com
skaffen_...@my-deja.com wrote:
>
>
> > Oooohhhh!!! I hadn't thought of that. Good work fella!! My thinking
was
> > more along the lines of the Illusionary vampire Horrid Reality-ing a
> > bomb, coz then you only need one in the deck (I think!).
> >
>
> I'd rather use a Flame Thrower...
Yes, for agg, but for sheer collateral damage, you can't beat a bomb.
Except maybe with an Assault Rifle. And Mass Reality. Oooohh!! there's
an idea...
<snip>
> Card text:
>
> Amaranth (Jyhad, V:TES) Combat [Only usable by a vampire who can
commit
> diablerie]. Diablerize an opposing vampire rather than sending that
vampire
> into torpor. Not usable by a vampire going into torpor.
>
> So Joaquina could play Amaranth, but not the illusionary vampire,
because he
> was not the one sending the opponent to torpor. Guess it's the same
situation
> as if say Normal ;-) tried to play Hidden Lurker and Amaranth after
Joaquina
> ended the combat – he can't do that because again there is no one to
fight
> against, and he couldn't play Amaranth because he's not the one that
> torporized. Same goes for Illusions, just that the combat ends is
part of
> this card's effect – the rest fizzles.
Question 4
Can an Illusionary Vampire play Amaranth? (ie is he "a vampire that can
commit diablerie?)
DH
LSJ
> Joaquina (the Ravnos) [...] is intercepted.
> She plays Dawn Operation (at superior) and Drawing Out the Beast [sup].
> Joaquina then plays Illusions of Kindred.
>
> Does the damage from DotB apply now (Illusions card text states "Combat
> Ends...")?
Yes, since DotB's card text states that the opp. takes damage "[at the end
of] each round."
> Question 2...
> If the damage does resolve now, can the Illusionary vampire now play
> Amaranth?
No. The Illusion cannot enter combat with the opp. since the opp. is no
longer ready.
--
LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc.
Links to revised rulebook, rulings, errata, and tournament rules:
http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/
skaffen_...@my-deja.com
> Yes, for agg, but for sheer collateral damage, you can't beat a bomb.
> Except maybe with an Assault Rifle. And Mass Reality. Oooohh!! there's
> an idea...
>
Yeah – Joaquina rushes,, plays DotB, wips out a Zip Gun and shoots for 9
after those Chimestry dudes and dudettes brought four Mass Realities into
play. Other vampire plays Majesty ;-(
But illusionary bombs by illusionary vampires could get really atomic. By the
way, I never understood why Bomb does 5R damage – it turns both minions into
crisp meatballs, and those pesky Raven Spies just fly away unharmed. Weird
world, this World Of Darkness...
Regards
Skaffen
Chantry Elder Of Munich
"Our hearts discern wild images of Death,
Shadows and shoals that edge eternity."
LSJ
> Can an Illusionary Vampire play Amaranth? (ie is he "a vampire that can
> commit diablerie?)
If his card text doesn't prohibit him from committing diablerie, yes.
hamd...@my-deja.com
skaffen_...@my-deja.com wrote:
>
>
> > Yes, for agg, but for sheer collateral damage, you can't beat a
bomb.
> > Except maybe with an Assault Rifle. And Mass Reality. Oooohh!!
there's
> > an idea...
> >
>
> Yeah – Joaquina rushes,, plays DotB, wips out a Zip Gun and shoots
for 9
> after those Chimestry dudes and dudettes brought four Mass Realities
into
> play. Other vampire plays Majesty ;-(
And still goes to torpor (Dawn Op rocks!)! It's not all bad.
Incidentally, I hadn't though about Zip guns... mmmmm, nice!
> But illusionary bombs by illusionary vampires could get really
atomic. By the
> way, I never understood why Bomb does 5R damage – it turns both
minions into
> crisp meatballs, and those pesky Raven Spies just fly away unharmed.
Weird
> world, this World Of Darkness...
Obviously the animal instinct of the Raven Spy (that wot gives
intercept) told him to be in a different postal area when the bomb went
off!!!
How about theses excuses for...
Mr Winthrop - must have been his day off / polishing the silver
JS Simmonds - He was away at the national pipe hat wearing convention
Tasha Morgan - at the hairdressers
Dog Pack - Saw an attractive poodle and went to sniff its butt
Actually these all suck
Sorry!
DH
James Coupe
> Question 3
>
> If this happened, would the bomb return into the deck (assuming sup HR
> text) or ash heap?
If a card ends up in the ash-heap, Horrid Reality's effect will not take
it back into the library. It is now in the ash-heap and so the effect is
broken.
--
James Coupe | PGP Key 0x5D623D5D
"And all the while I'm thinking things that I can never share with him.
I'm a bundle of confusion, yet it has a strange appeal. Did it all begin
with him and the way he makes me feel?"
LSJ
>
> On Thu, 19 Oct 2000 hamd...@my-deja.com wrote:
> > Question 3
> >
> > If this happened, would the bomb return into the deck (assuming sup HR
> > text) or ash heap?
>
> If a card ends up in the ash-heap, Horrid Reality's effect will not take
> it back into the library. It is now in the ash-heap and so the effect is
> broken.
Correct. The Bomb is burned when the strike resolves, and will not be
retrieved to be returned to the library by Horrid Reality.
hamd...@my-deja.com
LSJ <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote:
> James Coupe wrote:
> >
> > On Thu, 19 Oct 2000 hamd...@my-deja.com wrote:
> > > Question 3
> > >
> > > If this happened, would the bomb return into the deck (assuming
sup HR
> > > text) or ash heap?
> >
> > If a card ends up in the ash-heap, Horrid Reality's effect will not
take
> > it back into the library. It is now in the ash-heap and so the
effect is
> > broken.
>
> Correct. The Bomb is burned when the strike resolves, and will not be
> retrieved to be returned to the library by Horrid Reality.
Yep. I thought so after I checked the text of the card after my hasty
post.
I guess this is also the case for Grenades / WPG.
Curses!!
Back to "Normal deck II - Illusions of Normal".
Disguised weapons and bombs.
Mmmmmmm..... carnage.....
skaffen_...@my-deja.com
>
> And still goes to torpor (Dawn Op rocks!)! It's not all bad.
Only if she does something which anybody would want to block – being a Ravnos
that might prove difficult. Sensory Dep, yeah – one of the more promising
deck ideas for Ravnos, but not a tournament winner in my book. Apart from
that you don't need to shoot with monstrous Zip Guns if the DotB is doing the
job anyway.
>
> > But illusionary bombs by illusionary vampires could get really
> atomic. By the
> > way, I never understood why Bomb does 5R damage – it turns both
> minions into
> > crisp meatballs, and those pesky Raven Spies just fly away unharmed.
> Weird
> > world, this World Of Darkness...
>
> Obviously the animal instinct of the Raven Spy (that wot gives
> intercept) told him to be in a different postal area when the bomb went
> off!!!
>
> How about theses excuses for...
>
> Mr Winthrop - must have been his day off / polishing the silver
>
> JS Simmonds - He was away at the national pipe hat wearing convention
>
> Tasha Morgan - at the hairdressers
>
> Dog Pack - Saw an attractive poodle and went to sniff its butt
>
>
Zombie – looks like a crisp meatball anyway
*sigh* God, where’s my creativity?
Skaffen Chantry Elder Of Munich, who will end up being a Malkavian if he
doesn't stop thinking about Normal ways to win this game
"Our hearts discern wild images of Death,
Shadows and shoals that edge eternity."
hamd...@my-deja.com
skaffen_...@my-deja.com wrote:
>
>
> >
> > And still goes to torpor (Dawn Op rocks!)! It's not all bad.
>
> Only if she does something which anybody would want to block – being
a Ravnos
> that might prove difficult. Sensory Dep, yeah – one of the more
promising
> deck ideas for Ravnos, but not a tournament winner in my book. Apart
from
> that you don't need to shoot with monstrous Zip Guns if the DotB is
doing the
> job anyway.
There are different levels of "doing the job": I have noticed that in
tournaments, you cannot just torporise someone, otherwise they'll just
pull themselves out of torpor next turn. You have to damage them *then*
torporise them, or burn them as a result of torporising them - they
can't bother you if they're toast!!!
Hence, the Zip gun + mass realites does (hopefully) enough damage to
burn the vampire! Especially if done in conjunction with Carrion Crows,
DotB, etc etc. And if you suspect Majesties, it still shifts a card
from your hand!
The "blockable actions" point is one well taken. I have seen a deck do
quite well doing Dominate bleeds and Dawn op (3 Ravnos have dom), but
apart from Sensory Dep, there are other options - Cairo Int Airport
actions, Shepherds Innocence, Army of Rats (not so likely to be
intercepted) and Arsons.
> > > But illusionary bombs by illusionary vampires could get really
> > atomic. By the
> > > way, I never understood why Bomb does 5R damage – it turns both
> > minions into
> > > crisp meatballs, and those pesky Raven Spies just fly away
unharmed.
> > Weird
> > > world, this World Of Darkness...
> >
> > Obviously the animal instinct of the Raven Spy (that wot gives
> > intercept) told him to be in a different postal area when the bomb
went
> > off!!!
> >
> > How about theses excuses for...
> >
> > Mr Winthrop - must have been his day off / polishing the silver
> >
> > JS Simmonds - He was away at the national pipe hat wearing
convention
> >
> > Tasha Morgan - at the hairdressers
> >
> > Dog Pack - Saw an attractive poodle and went to sniff its butt
> >
> >
>
> Zombie – looks like a crisp meatball anyway
>
> *sigh* God, where’s my creativity?
>
> Skaffen Chantry Elder Of Munich, who will end up being a Malkavian if
he
> doesn't stop thinking about Normal ways to win this game
You started it!
> "Our hearts discern wild images of Death,
> Shadows and shoals that edge eternity."
"Orangeboom Orangeboom / it's a lager not a tune"
DH
skaffen_...@my-deja.com
> The "blockable actions" point is one well taken. I have seen a deck do
> quite well doing Dominate bleeds and Dawn op (3 Ravnos have dom), but
> apart from Sensory Dep, there are other options - Cairo Int Airport
> actions, Shepherds Innocence, Army of Rats (not so likely to be
> intercepted) and Arsons.
>
The classic here would be a Gangrel cum Dominate deck, Iliana, Faruq, Ingrid
and Stanislawa. Bleed, get blocked, dawn op, draw out some beasts and Form of
Mist to continue. Opposing vampire sinks to torpor to be grave robbed by your
next minion. Horrific on paper, and quite effective as well, but hand jam
will be a problem as soon as your prey realizes what's going on and stops
blocking.
> > >
> >
> > Zombie – looks like a crisp meatball anyway
> >
> > *sigh* God, where’s my creativity?
> >
> > Skaffen Chantry Elder Of Munich, who will end up being a Malkavian if
> he
> > doesn't stop thinking about Normal ways to win this game
>
> You started it!
>
I know. And still no word from Mike Ooi... Okay, I will try and load up on
some enlightening beverages later tonight and construct the Deck To End All
Normal Decks ™...
Skaffen
Chantry Elder Of Munich
"Our hearts discern wild images of Death,
Shadows and shoals that edge eternity."
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Reyda
opposing minion keeps it after use or is it returned to library ?
LSJ
>
> What if the weapon pulled with horrid reality is a stake ?
> opposing minion keeps it after use or is it returned to library ?
Library. It is still in play, so it will be returned to the library by HR.
skaffen-amtiskaw
>> You started it!
>>
>
>I know. And still no word from Mike Ooi... Okay, I will try and load up on
>some enlightening beverages later tonight and construct the Deck To End All
>Normal Decks ™...
>
'Right, here we go. It's completely nuts, but it uses 12 Normal and if
everything works out (a big IF, mind!), the rest of the table will
concede IMMEDIATLY just to figure out what happened a few seconds
earlier. It's called:
Mathematics Of Chaos
The title is no joke, because you have to calculate a few dependencies
while playing this beauty. Let's start with the observation that
Normal is the only vampire whose name is taken directly from a book on
analytical geometry. He knows that, of course, and set sail for the
cradle of modern mathematics - Arabia, that is. Here is what he
learned:
Crypt: (12 cards) [Min: 8, Max: 8, Avg: 2,00]
12 Normal (Malkavian, 2, ob)
Library:
Master:
2 Alamut
2 Anarch Revolt
1 Elder Library
16 Fortitude
3 Underworld Hunting Ground
Minion:
6 Clan Impersonation
2 Cryptic Rider
13 Daring the Dawn
2 Dramatic Upheaval
12 Embrace
13 Force of Will
2 Freak Drive
2 Lost in Crowds
2 Mark of the Damned
6 Night Moves
Turn 1: get Normal
Turn 2: Fortitude on Normal
Normal clan impersonates to Assamite
Turn 3: Underworld Hunting Ground
Normal hunts
Turn 4: HG to Normal
Alamut
Normal plays Embrace
Embrace gets Fortitude and hunts
Normal play Force Of Will + Daring The Dawn and burns
get new Normal
Turn 5: HG to Embrace
Embrace plays Embrace 2
Embrace 2 gets Fortitude and hunts
Turn 6: HG to Embrace 2
Embrace hunts, than play Force Of Will + Daring The Dawn
Embrace 2 plays Embrace 3
Embrace 3 gets Fortitude and hunts
Continue until at the beginning of your turn the number of burned
vampires equals your predators pool - 1, meanwhile giving Normal at
least one Fortitude skill card and 3 blood. You can also use Night
Moves with Normal to, err, moderate the pool of your prey and
predator.
Than play Anarch Revolt as Master. Normal calls Mark of the Damned.
Burn the blood on Alamut to get it through. Play Cryptic Rider, Freak
Drive and Dramatic Upheaval to switch with your predator. The AR will
oust him, and your original prey should fall in no time at all, idealy
on his next turn... ;-)
65 out of 66 games should see you with just some strange weenie horde,
but remember: Mathematics is not always about certainties. Take your
chances with chaos, and wait until your devillish scheme blossoms in
full to earn you the admiration of "all members of the prefered, but
usually opposite gender" (quoth Legbiter, and right he is).
Regards
oaflord
be played on Iliana (yes I do read everything )... Now... Who will come up
with the best 1 vamp deck... I challenge all and I will set some ground
rules...
NO JIMMY DUNN... ;-)
(snicker snicker)
I await your posts, looking forward to the chaos that ensues... is there
another out there who wishes to judge with me?? I will post one as well,
but what will it be......... To the victor go the spoils...
oAFLORD
aka
Thomas Kuster
Prince of Caledon
Remember to check...
http://www.geocities.com/tommyboy00269/vekn_cal.html (Dark Spiral pending)
Mike Ooi
Really, really mad...
At least +1 mad...
Be prepared...
Mike Ooi
Insane Prince of Houston, TX
Home of the functionally-named Houston Texans NFL Team
sh...@texas.net
hamd...@my-deja.com
"oaflord" <oaf...@sprint.ca> wrote:
> I haven't seen this kind of madness (well he is Malk) since No
Contracts can
> be played on Iliana (yes I do read everything )... Now... Who will
come up
> with the best 1 vamp deck... I challenge all and I will set some
ground
> rules...
>
> NO JIMMY DUNN... ;-)
>
> (snicker snicker)
>
> I await your posts, looking forward to the chaos that ensues... is
there
> another out there who wishes to judge with me??
I guess since I started this (kinda) I'll be happy to co judge this and
ensure fair play. However, there is one important rule you might have
missed:
THE ONLY VAMPIRE IN THE CRYPT WILL BE NORMAL.
I think you find that fits in with your stipulation of no Jimmy Dunn!
I've had a go, and so has the rt hon. chantry member.
May the best (?) deck win.
Noal McDonald
>> Question 2...
>> If the damage does resolve now, can the Illusionary vampire
>> now play Amaranth?
>
> No. The Illusion cannot enter combat with the opp. since the
> opp. is no longer ready.
While I'm thinking of this in another thread...since the opponent is no
longer ready, do you still have to draw a vampire from the bottom of the
crypt?
Regards,
Noal
--
"I was probably pretty young, when I realised that I had come from
what you might call a family, a clan, a race, maybe even a species,
of pure sons of bitches."
--Faulkner, "The Mansion"
LSJ
>
> LSJ <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote:
> >> Question 2...
> >> If the damage does resolve now, can the Illusionary vampire
> >> now play Amaranth?
> >
> > No. The Illusion cannot enter combat with the opp. since the
> > opp. is no longer ready.
>
> While I'm thinking of this in another thread...since the opponent is no
> longer ready, do you still have to draw a vampire from the bottom of the
> crypt?
Yes. And, finding no one with whom to fight, he wanders off out of the game.