Rotshreck vs First Strike
Kenneth
newgroup and couldn't find a clear answer.
If a reacting vampire is in the process of being burned or sent to
torpor with a first strike, is he still able to choose an agg damage
strike and save his skin with Rotshreck?
-Kenneth
Carsten isselhorst
I would say yes since Rotshreck is played when a vampire attempts to use
agg damage. Combat ends immediately and there is no strike resolution at
all.
No first strike no combat ends ( except for the combat ends from
ROtshreck).
Rotshreck is a very versatile card especially when combined with
Tzimisce who can intercept and have access to long range ( BotD) and
short range (CM, BA) agg damage.
Carsten
Kenneth
Carsten isselhorst wrote:
>
>
> I would say yes since Rotshreck is played when a vampire attempts to use
> agg damage. Combat ends immediately and there is no strike resolution at
> all.
> No first strike no combat ends ( except for the combat ends from
> ROtshreck).
Hm, your probably right but I was thinking since First Strike effects
are resolved before normal strikes, only cancelled by S:CE or dodge
(official rulebook 6.4.5). Maybe, as long as the opposing vampire
doesn't use evasive strikes, he/she won't ever get a chance to choose
offensive strikes, and consequently no Rotshreck?
> Rotshreck is a very versatile card especially when combined with
> Tzimisce who can intercept and have access to long range ( BotD) and
> short range (CM, BA) agg damage.
I'm aware of that, very aware, and exactly what I'm trying to avoid!
-Kenneth
LSJ
1) Both vampies choose their strikes during the choose strike phase,
before either strike (even a First Strike or a Strike: Combat Ends)
resolves.
2) Rotscrehck is played when the strike is chosen (again, before either
strike resolves).
--
LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc.
Links to revised rulebook, rulings, errata, and tournament rules:
http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/
Dave Brereton
> Tzimisce who can intercept and have access to long range ( BotD) and
> short range (CM, BA) agg damage.
In the case of Rotshreck all the Tzimisce need is BotD. They won't take the
damage at close range due to the Rotshreck ending combat. Just realized
that you still want to pack some agg hand damage for when you get grappled.
6 BotD and 6 CM and 8 Rotshreck should put the fear of God into their
Preditor and Prey. Pack some Eagles Sight to block D actions not directed
against you and the manditory intercept and wakes. There is lots of other
sneeky tricks they can do too, like Milicent and Jack. A good Tzimisce deck
is really tough to handle.
Talo...@nospam.hotmail.com
wrote:
>Kenneth wrote:
>>
>> Please excuse if this has been asked before, but I've searched the
>> newgroup and couldn't find a clear answer.
>>
>> If a reacting vampire is in the process of being burned or sent to
>> torpor with a first strike, is he still able to choose an agg damage
>> strike and save his skin with Rotshreck?
>
>1) Both vampies choose their strikes during the choose strike phase,
>before either strike (even a First Strike or a Strike: Combat Ends)
>resolves.
>
>2) Rotscrehck is played when the strike is chosen (again, before either
>strike resolves).
>
Yet another reason why FS is largely a waste of time. FS/agg should
send the opposing minion to torpor before his agg/rot combo.
T
Halcyan 2
>send the opposing minion to torpor before his agg/rot combo.
Would you care to provide some reasoning and logic to why this way is best? Or
are you going to go on yet another of your "they just completely messed up the
way I play" and "my way is better" ramblings?
Halcyan 2
Kenneth
Halcyan 2 wrote:
>
> >Yet another reason why FS is largely a waste of time. FS/agg should
> >send the opposing minion to torpor before his agg/rot combo.
>
> Would you care to provide some reasoning and logic to why this way is best?
I don't know how logical it is, but I'll take a go on elobarating on why
I agree with Talonz51.
First of all I find it highly unreasonable that FS doesn't beat S:CE and
dodge. I know this has been discussed before so I won't repeat that
discussion. I accept the fact that these evasive strikes beat FS, but
that doesn't mean I have to like it. Playing lots of Assamite decks,
this could have been the best strategy they have in getting around the
constant problem of minions sneaking out of combat, most other combat
clans have counter measures, but these highly skilled assassins are
missing their contracted marks by simple dodges. I know we have Psyche!
and now Shadow Feint. Psyche! ususally comes after a fizzled strike, a
strike usually costing blood (not that great), and aren't the
requirements and cost a bit high for SF when you compare to a Scorpion
Sting. If nothing else give these killers a decent anti-dodge card.
As for Rotshreck, correct me if I'm wrong, once played there is no way
of avoiding it's effect. Sudden Reversals from an ally if your lucky, or
possibly a Direct Intervention to stop that agg strike card, also from a
friendly helper, but what about vamps like Basilia and Thetmes. These
guys can do pretty much what they please when blocking and playing
Rotshreck. Again I might be way off here, but I thought one of the the
main ideas in VTES was that no card should be unstoppable, and I think
rot is pretty close to that! I see no reason why a FS that burns or
sends to torpor or even a S:CE shouldn't stop this fear of blood. The
way I see it both of these strikes can easily be interpreted as
resolving before the intercepting minion even attempts his strike. The
least one should require from an intercepting vampire is that he
succeeds in the attempt to strike agg before playing Rotshreck, a strike
which of course can be dodged or prevented in other ways. This is ok,
the agg damage has been attempted, unsuccesful in inflicting damage, but
Rotshreck could be played, no problem. They way it is now though is that
say Basilia gets hit with a FS Taste of Death she can respond with a
hand strike at long range (a little fuzzy with the long range attempt, I
know, but it doesn't kill my FS argument), saving her ass and still send
whoever into torpor. Where's the logic in that? The way I see it she was
in torpor possibly burnt before she knew what hit her, isn't that the
whole point with first strikes?
-Kenneth
Xian
"Kenneth" <kenneth...@ifm.uib.no> wrote in message
news:3CA199D4...@ifm.uib.no...
> First of all I find it highly unreasonable that FS doesn't beat S:CE and
> dodge. I know this has been discussed before so I won't repeat that
Of course, you *are* bringing it up again.
> discussion. I accept the fact that these evasive strikes beat FS, but
> that doesn't mean I have to like it. Playing lots of Assamite decks,
> this could have been the best strategy they have in getting around the
> constant problem of minions sneaking out of combat, most other combat
Once again, what else don't the Assamites beat? They don't need to beat
S:CE, because they can beat virtually everything else. The only time
they're really screwed is against Drawing out the Beast/Scorpion
Sting/Claws. Aside from that, they can pretty much out do any other
standard combat deck, and deal with most prevention.
> clans have counter measures, but these highly skilled assassins are
> missing their contracted marks by simple dodges. I know we have Psyche!
If you're getting screwed by dodges, why are you not using additional
strikes?
Assamite: "I strike hands at long range."
non-Assamite: "Umm...I dodge anyway."
Assamite: "Fine. I Blur, and strike with Blood Sweat twice."
non-Assamite: "Crap."
> and now Shadow Feint. Psyche! ususally comes after a fizzled strike, a
> strike usually costing blood (not that great), and aren't the
So use the ones that don't cost blood. Or make sure to get a Path of Blood
in play. Or play with Taste of Vitae, so that sooner or later, you'll be
getting all that blood back.
> requirements and cost a bit high for SF when you compare to a Scorpion
> Sting. If nothing else give these killers a decent anti-dodge card.
Whatever for? They already have one. Blur.
> As for Rotshreck, correct me if I'm wrong, once played there is no way
> of avoiding it's effect. Sudden Reversals from an ally if your lucky, or
Pretty much correct.
> possibly a Direct Intervention to stop that agg strike card, also from a
> friendly helper, but what about vamps like Basilia and Thetmes. These
> guys can do pretty much what they please when blocking and playing
If you can successfully block with Basilia or Thetmes, and then play
Rotschreck, more power to you. Personally, I'd be more inclined to take,
oh, an action with them than have them sit around and block.
> Rotshreck. Again I might be way off here, but I thought one of the the
> main ideas in VTES was that no card should be unstoppable, and I think
> rot is pretty close to that! I see no reason why a FS that burns or
It's hard to counter if:
a) you are being blocked
b) your opponent uses an aggravated strike that is effective at the current
range
So either don't get blocked, or maneuver to long range so that only Breath
of the Dragon/Flamethrower is going to get you. And again, yeah, it sends
your vampire to torpor, but unless that was your absolute last acting
minion, there's no reason you can't just simply rescue the poor sucker.
What's the big deal? So you're out a couple of actions. Not to mention,
you can only be hit with one per turn. If the Tzimisce could play 3 per
turn, yes, that would be bad. As is, though, only one of your minions is
"certainly" going to torpor. Again, big deal.
> sends to torpor or even a S:CE shouldn't stop this fear of blood. The
> way I see it both of these strikes can easily be interpreted as
> resolving before the intercepting minion even attempts his strike. The
The way I see it, both of the strikes are chosen at the same time, which is
when Rotschreck kicks in. Funnily enough, that's pretty much the official
interpretation too.
I'm not sure why you're arguing for S:CE to be more powerful in one
paragraph, and less powerful in another...
[snip]
> Rotshreck could be played, no problem. They way it is now though is that
> say Basilia gets hit with a FS Taste of Death she can respond with a
> hand strike at long range (a little fuzzy with the long range attempt, I
> know, but it doesn't kill my FS argument), saving her ass and still send
> whoever into torpor. Where's the logic in that? The way I see it she was
There isn't any logic in that. And you can't do that. The strike must be
effective at the current range for Rotschreck to be usable.
First Strike resolves after all strikes are chosen, but before all other
non-dodge, non-S:CE strikes. Except other strikes made with First Strike.
Rotschreck "interrupts" right after strikes are chosen, before any strike
resolution (including S:CE). I fail to see what is so hard to understand
about this. In general, masters (and especially OoT masters) resolve when
played. Sudden Reversal and Direct Intervention resolve immediately, why
not Rotschreck?
Xian
Noal McDonald
> First of all I find it highly unreasonable that FS doesn't beat S:CE and
> dodge. I know this has been discussed before so I won't repeat that
> discussion.
I will.
The only reason that people think First Strike should resolve before
S:CE and dodge is because of its name.
The reason that First Strike resolves before S:CE and dodge is game
balance. In VTES, there is a recurring theme that defense is cheaper
in resources and more effective than offense. Were it otherwise, a
VTES game would be a sprint rather than a marathon.
As it is, First Strike is not designed to beat defenses. It's designed
to beat other offenses. In a combat heavy meta-game, First Stike is
actually very useful.
Regards,
Noal McDonald
VEKN Prince of Metro Detroit
Noal McDonald
Kenneth wrote:
> They way it is now though is that
> say Basilia gets hit with a FS Taste of Death she can respond with a
> hand strike at long range (a little fuzzy with the long range attempt, I
> know, but it doesn't kill my FS argument), saving her ass and still send
> whoever into torpor.
Before ranting about something, you would do well to understand it.
An aggravated hand strike cannot attempt to inflict damage at long
range, therefore Rotschreck cannot be used. Also note that Rotschreck
can only be played once per table turn, which is a significant
limiting factor.
Rodrigo Diaz
effect - such
as aggravated hand damage at long range. This is official errata (as
far as I know).
On the other hand, since Rötschrek is a "pychological" effect, I see
no problem in it taking effect first, although it still is a very
powerful card. However, the same could be claimed of Cardinal Sin:
Failure of Mission, or Kiss of Ra, or other Send-to-torpor effects.
My opinion only
Rod
Noal McDonald
> The reason that First Strike resolves before S:CE and dodge is game
> balance.
er...that should be "S:CE and dodge resolves before First Strike".
I need to stop making posts before noon. :-P
Regards,
Noal
Talo...@nospam.hotmail.com
Because a FS resolves first, with the only exception being an opposing
dodge/sce.
Playing the rotschreck is an attempted resolution of the opposing
non-FS agg strike.
T
LSJ
> Playing the rotschreck is an attempted resolution of the opposing
> non-FS agg strike.
No. It is an attempt at ending combat before moving to the resolution.
Shaun McIsaac
> > As for Rotshreck, correct me if I'm wrong, once played there is no way
> > of avoiding it's effect. Sudden Reversals from an ally if your lucky, or
> Pretty much correct.
>
> > possibly a Direct Intervention to stop that agg strike card, also from a
> > friendly helper, but what about vamps like Basilia and Thetmes. These
> > guys can do pretty much what they please when blocking and playing
> If you can successfully block with Basilia or Thetmes, and then play
> Rotschreck, more power to you. Personally, I'd be more inclined to take,
> oh, an action with them than have them sit around and block.
They are better off blocking, especially if you have Rotschrecks.
Provided they'll be able to intercept as needed, they're likely to
make your predator send very little at you, whereas if they're tapped
he wont care.
> > Rotshreck. Again I might be way off here, but I thought one of the the
> > main ideas in VTES was that no card should be unstoppable, and I think
> > rot is pretty close to that! I see no reason why a FS that burns or
>
> It's hard to counter if:
> a) you are being blocked
> b) your opponent uses an aggravated strike that is effective at the current
> range
>
> So either don't get blocked,
You do realize how utterly stupid this suggestion is, right?
> or maneuver to long range so that only Breath
> of the Dragon/Flamethrower is going to get you.
Ivory bow works very well. They can IG/DotB it away, but that's
basically it. Fast hands et al just get nuked.
Your hand can be Flash, Dodge, *and* Skin of Steel. But it doesn't
matter. There is no defense against a good application of rotschreck;
it beats everything. IG beats dodge and S:CE, but doesn't beat
manuevers or prevention. Unpreventable damage beats prevention, but
not dodge or S:CE. DotB beats manuevers to long, and TF beats
manuevers to close. Scorpion sting beats dodge but not S:CE (or
prevention).
The combat cards that require a discipline can only beat some
defenses, while the master: oot beats all defenses. Go figure.
> And again, yeah, it sends
> your vampire to torpor, but unless that was your absolute last acting
> minion, there's no reason you can't just simply rescue the poor sucker.
> What's the big deal? So you're out a couple of actions. Not to mention,
> you can only be hit with one per turn. If the Tzimisce could play 3 per
> turn, yes, that would be bad. As is, though, only one of your minions is
> "certainly" going to torpor. Again, big deal.
As long as you're playing with disposable vampires, sure.
When you 7 cap prince just took a dive, that's another story.
Especially since lambach makes such excellent use of the card, and the
swing in votes might let him get away with eating your vampire.
This is all of course without mentioning that you're trading a MPA
with sending a vampire to torpor, which is amazingly good.
Joshua Duffin
"Shaun McIsaac" <mpm...@attbi.com> wrote in message
news:818c12c2.02032...@posting.google.com...
> > If you can successfully block with Basilia or Thetmes, and then play
> > Rotschreck, more power to you. Personally, I'd be more inclined to
take,
> > oh, an action with them than have them sit around and block.
>
> They are better off blocking, especially if you have Rotschrecks.
> Provided they'll be able to intercept as needed, they're likely to
> make your predator send very little at you, whereas if they're tapped
> he wont care.
I think his point was, where are Basilia and Thetmes going
to get "intercept as needed"? ANI can be enough, given
set-up or the willingness to burn plenty of blood for the
new outferiors, but Thetmes doesn't have a single intercept
discipline.
> > So either don't get blocked,
>
> You do realize how utterly stupid this suggestion is, right?
Um, no. Why is it stupid? If you mean because you were
talking about Rotschreck solely in terms of combat and
therefore combat-related solutions, fine, but on the whole
"not getting blocked" is an excellent way to avoid getting
Rotschrecked. It's not like intercept is unbeatable you
know. On the one hand there's Day Op/Daring the Dawn and
Kiss of Ra, and on the other there's Elder Impersonation,
the best stealth card in the game, along with Seduction,
Call of the Hungry Dead, and "regular" stealth cards.
> The combat cards that require a discipline can only beat some
> defenses, while the master: oot beats all defenses. Go figure.
Because it's a master card, I think. Same reason Vulnerability
can't be blocked while diablerie can.
It's pretty trumpy, sure, but nothing like broken; the once
per time around the table thing is a major balancing factor.
And just like any other combat deck, if it's doing too well
by putting vampires in torpor, people cross-table can start
helping out on the rescuing.
> As long as you're playing with disposable vampires, sure.
> When you 7 cap prince just took a dive, that's another story.
> Especially since lambach makes such excellent use of the card, and the
> swing in votes might let him get away with eating your vampire.
> This is all of course without mentioning that you're trading a MPA
> with sending a vampire to torpor, which is amazingly good.
Not that much better than sending a vampire to torpor *without*
using a master phase action... which takes, um, exactly the
same amount of setup as Rotschreck, and works every time that
your opponent doesn't prevent, dodge, or S:CE.
Josh
this is why my drummer drums
Xian
> They are better off blocking, especially if you have Rotschrecks.
If you're sitting around, waiting to block with a 10 point vampire
rather than taking actions with it, that's a huge investment of pool
going to waste. Sure, it's a deterrent to one, maybe two vampires,
but it's not really going to help you win most of the time. Not to
mention a lot of common, easily cycled cards like Seduction,
Misdirection, etc. will really screw you.
> Provided they'll be able to intercept as needed, they're likely to
A *really* big assumption. Basilia has Animalism, sure...which will
get you a little intercept. Thetmes has pretty much nothing that will
give him intercept. I can't imagine very many non-contrived
situations where you would rather have him blocking than doing
something more active.
> make your predator send very little at you, whereas if they're tapped
> he wont care.
That assumes that your predator is a complete moron, and won't bother
to probe your defenses with more expendable vampires, wait until
you're tapped out, and then send in the big guns. If your predator
has no way of dealing with one vamipre with aggravated hand damage,
like say, taking multiple actions, he's pretty worthless as a
predator. This might happen in individual games, but if it's the
regular state of things, something is very rotten in Denmark.
[how to counter Rotschreck]
> > So either don't get blocked,
>
> You do realize how utterly stupid this suggestion is, right?
Actually, I think it's pretty spot on. The only situation where you
cannot control being targetted by Rotschreck is vs. Malkavian OoT
rush, which - while viable - is not as common as Legbiter would have
you believe. :)
That being said, it's your own fault (or that of your deck) if you are
consistently getting blocked by the guy with Rotschreck, or if you're
entering combat through other means (Bum's Rush, etc.) with the
Rotschreck deck.
In order to not get blocked, all you have to do is:
a) have more stealth than the minion trying to block has intercept,
duh
b) use unblockable modifiers
c) not take actions (losing proposition)
Alternative options are to:
a) not play with any stealth at all, and try to jam the
(traditionally) intercept-oriented Rotschreck deck on reactions,
rather than combat and Rotschreck itself
b) overwhelm the Rotschreck deck with minions...you may get one sent
to torpor per turn, but that's the only one going due to Rotschreck,
and it can be rescued
c) Seduce/Sensory Dep/Sleeping Mind/CotHD/whatever if it's one
specific minion that is applying the Rotschreck consistently
d) take OoT actions, and Sudden Reverse the Rotschreck :)
> > or maneuver to long range so that only Breath
> > of the Dragon/Flamethrower is going to get you.
>
> Ivory bow works very well. They can IG/DotB it away, but that's
Oh, silly me. I forgot the Ivory Bow, which for all intents and
purposes, is exactly the same as the Flamethrower...no maneuver, does
ranged aggravated damage, is a weapon.
> basically it. Fast hands et al just get nuked.
Hey, both your suggestions work against BotD and Flamethrower as well.
Huzzah!
> Your hand can be Flash, Dodge, *and* Skin of Steel. But it doesn't
> matter. There is no defense against a good application of rotschreck;
> it beats everything. IG beats dodge and S:CE, but doesn't beat
There is defense. See above.
> The combat cards that require a discipline can only beat some
> defenses, while the master: oot beats all defenses. Go figure.
It's a master card. Using it to affect specific combats is generally
wasteful. And again, it can only be used when it's not that player's
turn, and when you're in combat. (Hint: if you avoid getting into
combat, Rotschreck is useless.)
> > And again, yeah, it sends
> > your vampire to torpor, but unless that was your absolute last acting
> > minion, there's no reason you can't just simply rescue the poor sucker.
> > What's the big deal? So you're out a couple of actions. Not to mention,
>
> As long as you're playing with disposable vampires, sure.
Your vampires should pretty much always be disposable. Some more so
than others, but you shouldn't be all that attached to your minions.
They help you win, but you do not achieve victory simply by having
minions.
> When you 7 cap prince just took a dive, that's another story.
So rescue him.
> Especially since lambach makes such excellent use of the card, and the
> swing in votes might let him get away with eating your vampire.
Assuming it gets to Lambach's controller's turn, and he can afford to
take the action to diablerize your prince. Oh, and assuming you can't
block it. Though if you can block it, there's a good chance you could
have just rescued the vampire in the first place.
> This is all of course without mentioning that you're trading a MPA
> with sending a vampire to torpor, which is amazingly good.
Actually, that's amazingly sucky. You could instead be gaining pool
with that MPA, or putting blood on your own vampires, or doing
something else much more useful. It's rarely worth it to trade one of
maybe 12 to 15 MPAs (Parthenon/Anson/Rumors notwithstanding) in order
to simply torporize one stupid vampire. Why do with an MPA what
combat cards can usually do on their own?
Xian