Stupid Mata Hari Questions
johnmeier1
Mozambique Allure
Requires a ready Laibon or untitled vampire. +1 stealth action.
If this acting vampire is Laibon, move the top card of your crypt to
your uncontrolled region. Otherwise, this vampire becomes Laibon, and
he or she untaps if he or she is Akunanse, Guruhi, Ishtarri, Osebo,
Assamite, Follower of Set, Ravnos, Lasombra, Tzimisce, Harbinger of
Skulls, or Salubri antitribu.
Mata Hari
Clan: Ravnos Capacity: 7
Independent
Group: 4
Ability: Red List: Mata Hari has 2 votes (titled). You and she may play
cards that require a sect and/or clan as if she were of that required
sect and/or clan.
I assume that she can play it, but she counts as a Laibon, so she just
draws from your crypt.
Also, can Mata Hari play Ishtarri Kholo? What happens if there are no
other Ishtarri in play?
Ishtarri Kholo
Clan(s): Ishtarri
Only usable during a political action. Usable by a tapped vampire.
Title.
Put this card on this Ishtarri to represent the unique Laibon title of
Ishtarri Kholo (worth 2 votes). Not usable if there are any older ready
untitled Ishtarri. Whenever this vampire is not a ready Ishtarri or
there is an older ready untitled Ishtarri, move this card to (one of)
the oldest ready untitled Ishtarri (if any).
I assume that, argh, she plays the card, gains the title Ishtarri
Kholo, then she is no longer Laibon so she can't have the title. So
she is just a Independent vampire with 2 votes (from her normal
abilities). Does Ishtarri Kholo kick in when she plays Laibon actions
or votes?
-johnmeier
Fabio 'Sooner' Macedo
johnmeier1 escreveu:
> Can Mata Hari play Mozambique Allure? What happens?
>
> Mozambique Allure
> Requires a ready Laibon or untitled vampire. +1 stealth action.
> If this acting vampire is Laibon, move the top card of your crypt to
> your uncontrolled region. Otherwise, this vampire becomes Laibon, and
> he or she untaps if he or she is Akunanse, Guruhi, Ishtarri, Osebo,
> Assamite, Follower of Set, Ravnos, Lasombra, Tzimisce, Harbinger of
> Skulls, or Salubri antitribu.
>
> Mata Hari
> Clan: Ravnos Capacity: 7
> Independent
> Group: 4
> Ability: Red List: Mata Hari has 2 votes (titled). You and she may play
> cards that require a sect and/or clan as if she were of that required
> sect and/or clan.
>
> I assume that she can play it, but she counts as a Laibon, so she just
> draws from your crypt.
I believe you're right, since she can't play it as an untitled vampire.
If she loses her title somehow, she can play it the way she chooses to.
> Also, can Mata Hari play Ishtarri Kholo? What happens if there are no
> other Ishtarri in play?
>
> Ishtarri Kholo
> Clan(s): Ishtarri
> Only usable during a political action. Usable by a tapped vampire.
> Title.
> Put this card on this Ishtarri to represent the unique Laibon title of
> Ishtarri Kholo (worth 2 votes). Not usable if there are any older ready
> untitled Ishtarri. Whenever this vampire is not a ready Ishtarri or
> there is an older ready untitled Ishtarri, move this card to (one of)
> the oldest ready untitled Ishtarri (if any).
>
> I assume that, argh, she plays the card, gains the title Ishtarri
> Kholo, then she is no longer Laibon so she can't have the title. So
> she is just a Independent vampire with 2 votes (from her normal
> abilities). Does Ishtarri Kholo kick in when she plays Laibon actions
> or votes?
> -johnmeier
Here's a shot.
- She plays Ishtarri Kholo.
- She gains a new title and immedially loses the old (2 votes) *and*
the new (since she is not Laibon - the card doesn't consider her as
such, she's playing it as an Ishtarri only). The votes cannot be used
in that referendum.
- She keeps on with an inert title of Ishtarri Kholo until she becomes
Ishtarri and Laibon (say, via Clan Impersonation).
Fabio "Sooner" Macedo
Fabio 'Sooner' Macedo
Fabio 'Sooner' Macedo escreveu:
> johnmeier1 escreveu:
And now that I think of it, maybe she can't play the Kholos at all.
They confer sect-based titles, and she would be playing the card as an
Ishtarri Independent vampire. Compare to a Crusade vote that she calls
as a Ravnos Sabbat vampire.
Let's wait for LSJ's answer...
Fabio Sooner
Klai...@gmail.com
And Mata Hari also definetily isn't untitled so can't play kholo
because of that reason alone.
The Kaiser
resolution of the Mozambique Allure. That seems to be in line with
most of the other rulings where basically, she can play whatever card,
but only gains the benefit if it's keyed to "this vampire" as opposed
to "this [non-Ravnos clan]."
I completely agree that Mata Hari is in fact titled and therefore can
not play Ishtarri Kholo, no matter who she is impersonating.
TTFn
-J "The Kaiser" Wilhelm
James Coupe
Kaiser <alei...@stny.rr.com> writes:
>My suspicion is that Mata Hari becomes Laibon and untaps upon
>resolution of the Mozambique Allure. That seems to be in line with
>most of the other rulings where basically, she can play whatever card,
>but only gains the benefit if it's keyed to "this vampire" as opposed
>to "this [non-Ravnos clan]."
No, you're confusing play and resolve (which treats her as whatever
she's impersonating) with the ongoing effects of a card in play that's
been played already (which treats her as whatever she really is).
A card that, for example, requires a Toreador and does something to the
acting Toreador would play and resolve treating Mata Hari as a Toreador.
If it then also conferred some ongoing benefit to, for example, "the
Toreador with this card", that wouldn't work. Any immediate effects
during play and resolution work just fine, however.
--
James Coupe
PGP Key: 0x5D623D5D YOU ARE IN ERROR.
EBD690ECD7A1FB457CA2 NO-ONE IS SCREAMING.
13D7E668C3695D623D5D THANK YOU FOR YOUR COOPERATION.
johnmeier1
johnmeier1
> not play Ishtarri Kholo, no matter who she is impersonating.
Where does it say on the Kholo cards that titled vampires cannot play
them? I thought when a titled vampire gets a new title (like a prince
getting chosen for a justicar vote) they get the new title and lose the
old. Right?
-johnmeier
firstco...@aol.com
johnmeier1 wrote:
> I forgot to put LSJ in the subject line. He will still check it, right?
You just put "LSJ" in the text, so he'll see it now, anyway.
(Although I think he reads or at least scans most of the newsgroup
irrespective)
-- Brian
In another dimension, with voyeuristic intention,
Well secluded, Scott sees all
LSJ
> johnmeier1 escreveu:
>>Can Mata Hari play Mozambique Allure? What happens?
>>
>>draws from your crypt.
>
> I believe you're right, since she can't play it as an untitled vampire.
> If she loses her title somehow, she can play it the way she chooses to.
Correct.
>>Also, can Mata Hari play Ishtarri Kholo? What happens if there are no
>>other Ishtarri in play?
>
>>I assume that, argh, she plays the card, gains the title Ishtarri
>>Kholo, then she is no longer Laibon so she can't have the title. So
>>she is just a Independent vampire with 2 votes (from her normal
>>abilities). Does Ishtarri Kholo kick in when she plays Laibon actions
>>or votes?
>
> Here's a shot.
>
> - She plays Ishtarri Kholo.
> - She gains a new title and immedially loses the old (2 votes) *and*
> the new (since she is not Laibon - the card doesn't consider her as
> such, she's playing it as an Ishtarri only). The votes cannot be used
> in that referendum.
> - She keeps on with an inert title of Ishtarri Kholo until she becomes
> Ishtarri and Laibon (say, via Clan Impersonation).
[... and then, in a follow-up, ...]
> And now that I think of it, maybe she can't play the Kholos at all.
> They confer sect-based titles, and she would be playing the card as an
> Ishtarri Independent vampire. Compare to a Crusade vote that she calls
> as a Ravnos Sabbat vampire.
She plays the Kholo (a card that requires a clan and a sect) as if she
were of that clan and sect -- a Laibon Ishtarri.
So your first guess is correct.
She receives the title Ishtarri Kholo. So she loses the title "Mata has
two votes". The new title immediately goes inert until she changes
clan (and sect) for real to Ishtarri.
--
That is my story, be it bitter or be it sweet.
Keep a little and let a little come back to me.
LSJ (vtesr...@TRAPwhite-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep (remove spam trap to reply)
http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/
Jozxyqk
> [Mata Hari] plays the Kholo (a card that requires a clan and a sect) as if she
> were of that clan and sect -- a Laibon Ishtarri.
> So your first guess is correct.
> She receives the title Ishtarri Kholo. So she loses the title "Mata has
> two votes". The new title immediately goes inert until she changes
> clan (and sect) for real to Ishtarri.
Perhaps this is a good way for Mata to go Anarch :)
She calls some random vote (maybe to burn an Anarch Revolt you put in
play yourself), and plays the Kholo; then she's free to go anarch as she
has no title (even if the Kholo leaps onto some real Ishtarri [or
whichever Laibon clan] immediately).
Chris Berger
Jozxyqk wrote:
> LSJ <vtesr...@trapwhite-wolf.com> wrote:
>
> > She receives the title Ishtarri Kholo. So she loses the title "Mata has
> > two votes". The new title immediately goes inert until she changes
> > clan (and sect) for real to Ishtarri.
>
> Perhaps this is a good way for Mata to go Anarch :)
> She calls some random vote (maybe to burn an Anarch Revolt you put in
> play yourself), and plays the Kholo; then she's free to go anarch as she
> has no title (even if the Kholo leaps onto some real Ishtarri [or
> whichever Laibon clan] immediately).
It would suck if there was already an older Ishtarri in play though,
since you can't play it if there is an older untitled Ishtarri.
Fabio 'Sooner' Macedo
> She plays the Kholo (a card that requires a clan and a sect) as if she
> were of that clan and sect -- a Laibon Ishtarri.
> So your first guess is correct.
> She receives the title Ishtarri Kholo. So she loses the title "Mata has
> two votes". The new title immediately goes inert until she changes
> clan (and sect) for real to Ishtarri.
> Keep a little and let a little come back to me.
> LSJ (vtesr...@TRAPwhite-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep (remove spam trap to reply)
> http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/
Neat. Now I see that her text says "clan and/or sect". Thought it was
"clan or sect" only.
How it compares to Eldest are Kholo? I was inclined to believe she
can't play it to gain two votes as if she were Laibon, since the card
doesn't require a Laibon Ravnos specifically. But the Kholos also don't
require a Laibon per se, they just grant a Laibon title. Does the fact
that the rulebook already says a vampire can't gain a title if he's not
of the appropriate sect is the thin line between how the two cards
interact with her? So what actually triggers Mata's text in full? Or am
I missing something altogether and she can, in fact, play Eldest are
Kholo as Laibon Ravnos?
Checking her text again, it says:
"You and she may play cards that require a sect ***and/or*** clan as if
she were of that required sect ***or*** clan."
Doesn't that imply that she can play cards that require both a sect and
a clan, but has to choose if the plays it as a member of clan X OR of
the sect Y? (since the second part doesn't have a "and/or" clause). So
she could play an hypothetical card that requires a Sabbat Ravnos as a
Sabbat vampire (since she already is Ravnos) or a card that requires an
Independent Salubri as a Salubri (since she already is indie). Other
shot: the fact that she plays a card as Clan X implies that she's
considered as a member of clan X's default sect by that card?
Fabio "Sooner" Macedo
Chris Berger
Fabio 'Sooner' Macedo wrote:
>
> Checking her text again, it says:
> "You and she may play cards that require a sect ***and/or*** clan as if
> she were of that required sect ***or*** clan."
>
> Doesn't that imply that she can play cards that require both a sect and
> a clan, but has to choose if the plays it as a member of clan X OR of
> the sect Y? (since the second part doesn't have a "and/or" clause). So
> she could play an hypothetical card that requires a Sabbat Ravnos as a
> Sabbat vampire (since she already is Ravnos) or a card that requires an
> Independent Salubri as a Salubri (since she already is indie). Other
> shot: the fact that she plays a card as Clan X implies that she's
> considered as a member of clan X's default sect by that card?
>
a Laibon Ishtarri. Thus, she is playing a card that requires a clan as
though she were a member of that clan. The card goes on her and
bestows the Laibon title of Ishtarri Kholo. It is actually immaterial
whether or not she is Laibon. I don't know if she plays the card as a
Laibon Ishtarri (my guess is, she plays it as an Independent Ishtarri),
but it doesn't matter. Nothing about playing the card requires a
Laibon. After she has the card, she is bestowed with the Laibon title
of Ishtarri Kholo, and then she is no longer considered Ishtarri (and
no longer considered Laibon, if she ever was), and cannot hold the
title.
The only card I can think of which requires both a sect and a clan is
Haqim's Law. And she's already Independent, so she only has to imitate
the clan if she wanted to play it. I suppose a ruling would be needed
in the rare (I would almost call it nonexistant) case where Mata Hari
plays Into the Fire (or similar) to become Sabbat, and then tries to
play Haqim's Law. In that one instance, she would need to imitate both
clan and sect in order to play a card. Would it be allowable?
Personally, I say, yes, because, who the hell cares.
James Coupe
Chris Berger <ark...@ugcs.caltech.edu> writes:
>Umm... Ishtarri Kholo only requires an Ishtarri. It does not require
>a Laibon Ishtarri. Thus, she is playing a card that requires a clan as
>though she were a member of that clan. The card goes on her and
>bestows the Laibon title of Ishtarri Kholo. It is actually immaterial
>whether or not she is Laibon.
No, it's not.
A vampire must belong to the appropriate sect to receive a
title. [10]
Only Laibon can hold the Laibon titles kholo and magaji. [10.3]
If Mata Hari is an independent Ishtarri, as far as the Kholo card is
concerned, she cannot receive the title.
LSJ
> Neat. Now I see that her text says "clan and/or sect". Thought it was
> "clan or sect" only.
>
> How it compares to Eldest are Kholo? I was inclined to believe she
> can't play it to gain two votes as if she were Laibon, since the card
> doesn't require a Laibon Ravnos specifically.
Correct. It does not require a Laibon. Any Ravnos can play it.
Mata can play it as an action modifier. In that case, she does not
benefit, since she is not a Laibon Ravnos. Similarly, Etienne Fauberge
could play it, with the same result.
Mata (or Etienne) can play it as a reaction. Each ready Ravnos
(including Mata or Etienne) would get an additional vote.
> But the Kholos also don't
> require a Laibon per se, they just grant a Laibon title. Does the fact
> that the rulebook already says a vampire can't gain a title if he's not
> of the appropriate sect is the thin line between how the two cards
> interact with her? So what actually triggers Mata's text in full? Or am
Yes. Ishtarri Kholo requires a Laibon Ishtarri.
> I missing something altogether and she can, in fact, play Eldest are
> Kholo as Laibon Ravnos?
>
> Checking her text again, it says:
> "You and she may play cards that require a sect ***and/or*** clan as if
> she were of that required sect ***or*** clan."
>
> Doesn't that imply that she can play cards that require both a sect and
> a clan, but has to choose if the plays it as a member of clan X OR of
> the sect Y? (since the second part doesn't have a "and/or" clause). So
> she could play an hypothetical card that requires a Sabbat Ravnos as a
> Sabbat vampire (since she already is Ravnos) or a card that requires an
> Independent Salubri as a Salubri (since she already is indie). Other
> shot: the fact that she plays a card as Clan X implies that she's
> considered as a member of clan X's default sect by that card?
It means and/or.
Fabio 'Sooner' Macedo
Check. Thanks.
Stupid, unnecessary note: it seems Mata is rapidly getting closer to
Form of Mist as the "Most Mentioned Card in Rules Questions Threads" :D
Fabio "Sooner" Macedo