(recap + Q) (LSJ) Winged Second
floppyzedolfin
Cardtype: Reaction
Discipline: Flight
[FLIGHT] Only usable when another minion you control enters combat
with a minion without flight. Tap this minion. In that combat, this
minion may make a hand or melee weapon strike (with or without a
strike card) on the opposing minion during normal strike resolution
(as if at close range). Dodge will avoid this strike, and damage
prevention effects can treat this as a strike from an opposing minion.
This minion may be the target of effects that inflict damage or steal
blood as a retainer could be.
Let A be the acting minion, without flight, and B the reacting minion
entering combat.
C is a minion controlled by the controller of B, and C has flight.
[Later on, C may happen to be a specific vampire. If that genuine
vampire doesn't have [FLIGHT] yet, let's suppose he or she has
received a Textbook: Damnation and has played a Concordance superior.
First part - Confirmations needed
- Vampire C is not in combat, hence he cannot play non-strike combat
cards, such as Carrion Crows, Disarm, or even any prevent card.
- Vampire C is still a vampire not in the combat, so he can play
Legacy of Power.
- If A is a vampire, Vampire C isn't "opposite vampire" to vampire A,
so Rötschreck cannot be played on C if A attempts to deal aggravated
damage to C. For the same reason, Rötschreck cannot be played on
Vampire A if C attempts to deal aggravated damage to A.
- If someone strikes with Eye of the Unforgiving Haven, C will suffer
0 damage from this strike.
- Vampire C cannot use strikes only usable at long range.
- If Vampire C is Lorrie, she would only hit once.
- Oppositely at what has been said, if C has a Leather Jacket and A is
striking against C, C cannot use the Leather Jacket to prevent damage
due to that strike.
- C cannot strike with a Stutter-Step.
---
Second part - answers needed
- If C's strike is a Mighty Grapple sup', is the press lost?
- Can C use strikes "that are not usable during the first round"
during the first round? during any round but the first? (even though I
can't find any corresponding card)
- Can C prevent 1 damage with a Guardian Angel?
- Could C's Ghoul Retainer use a weapon not used by C to strike?
- If A's strike is a Dodge, B's strike is something (not very
important), and C's strike is an Anesthetic Touch. Does combat stop
immediately after resolving those strikes?
I presume the reason to the answers to those question is pretty much
the same each time (more or less "C isn't in combat, so having a press
is useless / ...").
Maybe to be continued, I can't see anything else to add, right now.
(thanks to Jozxyqk for pre-clearing things)
floppyzedolfin
>
> - If Vampire C is Lorrie, she would only hit once.
>
Judgement, he can only strike once.
(since Lorrie can't play Winged Second)
John Flournoy
> Winged Second [LoB:R]
> Cardtype: Reaction
> Discipline: Flight
> [FLIGHT] Only usable when another minion you control enters combat
> with a minion without flight. Tap this minion. In that combat, this
> minion may make a hand or melee weapon strike (with or without a
> strike card) on the opposing minion during normal strike resolution
> (as if at close range). Dodge will avoid this strike, and damage
> prevention effects can treat this as a strike from an opposing minion.
> This minion may be the target of effects that inflict damage or steal
> blood as a retainer could be.
>
> Let A be the acting minion, without flight, and B the reacting minion
> entering combat.
> C is a minion controlled by the controller of B, and C has flight.
> [Later on, C may happen to be a specific vampire. If that genuine
> vampire doesn't have [FLIGHT] yet, let's suppose he or she has
> received a Textbook: Damnation and has played a Concordance superior.
>
> First part - Confirmations needed
>
> - Vampire C is not in combat, hence he cannot play non-strike combat
> cards, such as Carrion Crows, Disarm, or even any prevent card.
Correct. (confirmed that C does not enter the combat here:
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/msg/77188843abf5b28c?hl=en&)
> - Vampire C is still a vampire not in the combat, so he can play
> Legacy of Power.
Correct. (same as above)
> - If A is a vampire, Vampire C isn't "opposite vampire" to vampire A,
> so Rötschreck cannot be played on C if A attempts to deal aggravated
> damage to C. For the same reason, Rötschreck cannot be played on
> Vampire A if C attempts to deal aggravated damage to A.
Correct. C is not in the combat, and does not count for any effect
that target a minion 'in combat' or 'the opposing minion'.
> - If someone strikes with Eye of the Unforgiving Haven, C will suffer
> 0 damage from this strike.
Incorrect. Per card text "This minion may be the target of effects
that inflict damage or steal blood as a retainer could be." Eye of
Unforgiving Heaven specifically damages all retainers.
> - Vampire C cannot use strikes only usable at long range.
This is explicit in the text: 'this minion may make a hand or melee
weapon strike' - there are no hand or melee strikes only usable at
long range (and only a Kerrie can be even used at long range.)
> - If Vampire C is Lorrie, she would only hit once.
Again, explicit by text: "this minion may make _A_ hand or melee
weapon strike".
> - Oppositely at what has been said, if C has a Leather Jacket and A is
> striking against C, C cannot use the Leather Jacket to prevent damage
> due to that strike.
Incorrect. Using a leather jacket is not restricted to only by a
minion in combat (as most combat cards are), and the damage being
applied to C is 'from a strike' and thus can be prevented by a LJ.
> - C cannot strike with a Stutter-Step.
C certainly could strike with stutter step, since it does count as a
hand strike. However, the dodge part would simply have no effect on
the combat (and would not protect vampire C from being struck, since
they are struck 'as a retainer' per card text and Dodges do not
protect retainers per the rules.)
> ---
>
> Second part - answers needed
>
> - If C's strike is a Mighty Grapple sup', is the press lost?
Yes.
> - Can C use strikes "that are not usable during the first round"
> during the first round? during any round but the first? (even though I
> can't find any corresponding card)
I would think that their strike choice is restricted by the round, but
LSJ will need to answer it.
> - Can C prevent 1 damage with a Guardian Angel?
No. They are not in combat and thus cannot prevent the damage (read it
as '1 each combat that they are in'.)
> - Could C's Ghoul Retainer use a weapon not used by C to strike?
No. Nothing on Winged Second says that the retainers of C have any
effect on the combat (and thus an Owl Companion on C would not reveal
their hand, Dog Packs wouldn't prevent S:CE, etc etc.)
> - If A's strike is a Dodge, B's strike is something (not very
> important), and C's strike is an Anesthetic Touch. Does combat stop
> immediately after resolving those strikes?
Interesting question. LSJ?
> I presume the reason to the answers to those question is pretty much
> the same each time (more or less "C isn't in combat, so having a press
> is useless / ...").
>
> Maybe to be continued, I can't see anything else to add, right now.
> (thanks to Jozxyqk for pre-clearing things)
-John Flournoy
LSJ
> On Aug 20, 9:52 am, floppyzedolfin <floppyzedol...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Let A be the acting minion, without flight, and B the reacting minion
>> entering combat.
>> C is a minion controlled by the controller of B, and C has flight.
>> [Later on, C may happen to be a specific vampire. If that genuine
>> vampire doesn't have [FLIGHT] yet, let's suppose he or she has
>> received a Textbook: Damnation and has played a Concordance superior.
John's answers are correct except as amended below:
Perhaps. But not if the vampire is being targeted as a retainer, which seems to
be the case, since that would mean the damage is unpreventable. [6.4.7]
>> - C cannot strike with a Stutter-Step.
>
> C certainly could strike with stutter step, since it does count as a
> hand strike. However, the dodge part would simply have no effect on
> the combat (and would not protect vampire C from being struck, since
> they are struck 'as a retainer' per card text and Dodges do not
> protect retainers per the rules.)
>
>> ---
>>
>> Second part - answers needed
>>
>> - If C's strike is a Mighty Grapple sup', is the press lost?
>
> Yes.
>
>> - Can C use strikes "that are not usable during the first round"
>> during the first round? during any round but the first? (even though I
>> can't find any corresponding card)
>
> I would think that their strike choice is restricted by the round, but
> LSJ will need to answer it.
Correct.
>> - Can C prevent 1 damage with a Guardian Angel?
>
> No. They are not in combat and thus cannot prevent the damage (read it
> as '1 each combat that they are in'.)
>
>> - Could C's Ghoul Retainer use a weapon not used by C to strike?
>
> No. Nothing on Winged Second says that the retainers of C have any
> effect on the combat (and thus an Owl Companion on C would not reveal
> their hand, Dog Packs wouldn't prevent S:CE, etc etc.)
>
>> - If A's strike is a Dodge, B's strike is something (not very
>> important), and C's strike is an Anesthetic Touch. Does combat stop
>> immediately after resolving those strikes?
>
> Interesting question. LSJ?
Yes, combat ends after resolving Anesthetic Touch at [obe] or [OBE].
floppyzedolfin
> > - If someone strikes with Eye of the Unforgiving Heaven, C will suffer
> > 0 damage from this strike.
>
> Incorrect. Per card text "This minion may be the target of effects
> that inflict damage or steal blood as a retainer could be." Eye of
> Unforgiving Heaven specifically damages all retainers.
Eye of Unforgiving Heaven inflicts 2 damage to demon retainers. Do you
mean C is considered a "demon retainer" ?
> > - Oppositely at what has been said, if C has a Leather Jacket and A is
> > striking against C, C cannot use the Leather Jacket to prevent damage
> > due to that strike.
>
> Incorrect. Using a leather jacket is not restricted to only by a
> minion in combat (as most combat cards are), and the damage being
> applied to C is 'from a strike' and thus can be prevented by a LJ.
LJ specifies "opposing minion's strike". It is not mentioned on WS
that A's strikes towards C are considerated as if A was C's opposing
minion.
>
> > - C cannot strike with a Stutter-Step.
>
> C certainly could strike with stutter step, since it does count as a
> hand strike. However, the dodge part would simply have no effect on
> the combat (and would not protect vampire C from being struck, since
> they are struck 'as a retainer' per card text and Dodges do not
> protect retainers per the rules.)
Same debate there has been long ago, Immortal Grapple vs Stutter Step.
Since Stutter Step is a Dodge, it is not allowed as a strike, per WS's
card text.
> > Second part - answers needed
> > - Could C's Ghoul Retainer use a weapon not used by C to strike?
>
> No. Nothing on Winged Second says that the retainers of C have any
> effect on the combat (and thus an Owl Companion on C would not reveal
> their hand, Dog Packs wouldn't prevent S:CE, etc etc.)
Owl Companion and Dog Pack mention "opposing minion". Ghoul Retainer
doesn't.
witness1
> > > - C cannot strike with a Stutter-Step.
>
> > C certainly could strike with stutter step, since it does count as a
> > hand strike. However, the dodge part would simply have no effect on
> > the combat (and would not protect vampire C from being struck, since
> > they are struck 'as a retainer' per card text and Dodges do not
> > protect retainers per the rules.)
>
> Same debate there has been long ago, Immortal Grapple vs Stutter Step.
> Since Stutter Step is a Dodge, it is not allowed as a strike, per WS's
> card text.
Stutter-Step cannot be played if "only hand strikes (or only dodges)
are allowed". Winged Second allows hand or melee weapon strikes, which
is not "only hand strikes", so Stutter-Step is probably allowed.
witness1
LSJ
> On Aug 20, 1:29 pm, floppyzedolfin <floppyzedol...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> - C cannot strike with a Stutter-Step.
>>> C certainly could strike with stutter step, since it does count as a
>>> hand strike. However, the dodge part would simply have no effect on
>>> the combat (and would not protect vampire C from being struck, since
>>> they are struck 'as a retainer' per card text and Dodges do not
>>> protect retainers per the rules.)
>> Same debate there has been long ago, Immortal Grapple vs Stutter Step.
>> Since Stutter Step is a Dodge, it is not allowed as a strike, per WS's
>> card text.
Stutter-Step vs. Immortal Grapple debate resulted in:
"strike: hand strike + dodge" is a hand strike and thus is allowed by Immortal
Grapple's card text.
That result is why the text on Stutter-Step's own card text was changed in
subsequent printings to self-restrict if strikes are restricted to hand strikes.
> Stutter-Step cannot be played if "only hand strikes (or only dodges)
> are allowed". Winged Second allows hand or melee weapon strikes, which
> is not "only hand strikes", so Stutter-Step is probably allowed.
Winged Second may strike: Stutter-Step, yes.
LSJ
> John Flournoy wrote:
>> On Aug 20, 9:52 am, floppyzedolfin <floppyzedol...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Let A be the acting minion, without flight, and B the reacting minion
>>> entering combat.
>>> C is a minion controlled by the controller of B, and C has flight.
>>> [Later on, C may happen to be a specific vampire. If that genuine
>>> vampire doesn't have [FLIGHT] yet, let's suppose he or she has
>>> received a Textbook: Damnation and has played a Concordance superior.
>>> - Oppositely at what has been said, if C has a Leather Jacket and A is
>>> striking against C, C cannot use the Leather Jacket to prevent damage
>>> due to that strike.
>>
>> Incorrect. Using a leather jacket is not restricted to only by a
>> minion in combat (as most combat cards are), and the damage being
>> applied to C is 'from a strike' and thus can be prevented by a LJ.
>
> Perhaps. But not if the vampire is being targeted as a retainer, which
> seems to be the case, since that would mean the damage is unpreventable.
> [6.4.7]
... which seems to contradict text on Infection and Martyr's Resilience.
ERRATA:
The following sentences are to be removed from the rulebook:
section 6.4.6:
"Damage to retainers cannot be prevented.'
section 6.4.7:
"Such strikes cannot be dodged, and damage done to retainers cannot be prevented."
Those sentences are intended to mean that the strike/damage targeting a retainer
is not affected by the employer's dodge nor prevented by "prevent X damage
(inflicted on myself)" effects played by the employer. That is, they are not
intended to add anything themselves, but rather they merely clarify/reiterate
the conditions given/implied by 6.4.5.Dodge and normal "prevent X damage" effects.
The Winged Second can use Leather Jacket to prevent the strike damage.
And so:
>>> - C cannot strike with a Stutter-Step.
>>
>> C certainly could strike with stutter step, since it does count as a
>> hand strike. However, the dodge part would simply have no effect on
>> the combat (and would not protect vampire C from being struck, since
>> they are struck 'as a retainer' per card text and Dodges do not
>> protect retainers per the rules.)
C's dodge will protect C (although it will not protect B, since B is not the
dodging minion).
witness1
> LSJ wrote:
> > John Flournoy wrote:
> >> On Aug 20, 9:52 am, floppyzedolfin <floppyzedol...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>> Let A be the acting minion, without flight, and B the reacting minion
> >>> entering combat.
> >>> C is a minion controlled by the controller of B, and C has flight.
> >>> [Later on, C may happen to be a specific vampire. If that genuine
> >>> vampire doesn't have [FLIGHT] yet, let's suppose he or she has
> >>> received a Textbook: Damnation and has played a Concordance superior.
> >>> - Oppositely at what has been said, if C has a Leather Jacket and A is
> >>> striking against C, C cannot use the Leather Jacket to prevent damage
> >>> due to that strike.
>
> >> Incorrect. Using a leather jacket is not restricted to only by a
> >> minion in combat (as most combat cards are), and the damage being
> >> applied to C is 'from a strike' and thus can be prevented by a LJ.
>
> > Perhaps. But not if the vampire is being targeted as a retainer, which
> > seems to be the case, since that would mean the damage is unpreventable.
> > [6.4.7]
>
> ... which seems to contradict text on Infection and Martyr's Resilience.
Well, we've always been okay with card text contradicting rules text
before...
> ERRATA:
> The following sentences are to be removed from the rulebook:
>
> section 6.4.6:
> "Damage to retainers cannot be prevented.'
>
> section 6.4.7:
> "Such strikes cannot be dodged, and damage done to retainers cannot be prevented."
>
> Those sentences are intended to mean that the strike/damage targeting a retainer
> is not affected by the employer's dodge nor prevented by "prevent X damage
> (inflicted on myself)" effects played by the employer. That is, they are not
> intended to add anything themselves, but rather they merely clarify/reiterate
> the conditions given/implied by 6.4.5.Dodge and normal "prevent X damage" effects.
>
> The Winged Second can use Leather Jacket to prevent the strike damage.
>
> And so:
>
> >>> - C cannot strike with a Stutter-Step.
>
> >> C certainly could strike with stutter step, since it does count as a
> >> hand strike. However, the dodge part would simply have no effect on
> >> the combat (and would not protect vampire C from being struck, since
> >> they are struck 'as a retainer' per card text and Dodges do not
> >> protect retainers per the rules.)
>
> C's dodge will protect C (although it will not protect B, since B is not the
> dodging minion).
...but this result makes sense.
witness1
Stone
"witness1" <jwnew...@bellsouth.net> a écrit dans le message de
news:1187640411.8...@r29g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
> > ... which seems to contradict text on Infection and Martyr's Resilience.
>
> Well, we've always been okay with card text contradicting rules text
> before...
especially with the golden rule for cards " 1.4. The Golden Rule for Cards
Whenever the cards contradict the rules, the cards take precedence. "
which already handles quite well Infection and Martyr's Resilience, so why
go for a rather obscure change in the rulebook itself ? Why not instead add
an online clarification on Leather Jacket or Winged Second, either on the
ERC page or in the card texts, it'd be less of a hassle (and for the sake of
brief and clear sentences in the rulebook, as they are at the moment).
Stone
LSJ
Because neither Infection nor Maryr's Resilience makes the unpreventable damage
preventable.
See also Skin of Rock vs. Weather Control.
"Less of a hassle" than "completely trivial change of making the rulebook fit
player intuition to have the same net result as players already play"? That's
hard to imagine.