(LSJ) "Cancel" without the "no cost is payed" cards
floppyzedolfin
I was reading the Target cards when it struck me that they had the
"cancel [a] card" without the "(no cost is payed)" usual text.
I ran some searches, and found that other cards did not have this
explicit "no cost is payed" text.
Here is a list of the cards I could find, classified in various groups
(mainly, having / not having the "no cost is payed" text).
- Cards that have "cancel [a] card" and "no cost is payed"
Approximation of Loyalty
Bleeding the Vine
Charismatic Aura
Contingency Planning
Dark Influences (twice, the second being shortened to "(no cost)" for
space reasons, I guess)
Denial of Aphrodite's Favor
Determine
Direct Intervention
Disengage
Fae Contortion
False Resonance
Hall of Hades' Court
Hide the Mind
Iron Heart
Jones, The
Not to Be
Personnal Involvement
Rewind Time (TEM)
Scry the Hearthstone
Soul Decoration
Shape Mastery (inf'; I guess sup' keeps the "(no cost is payed)" with
the "as above" text)
Soul Decoration
Sudden Reversal
Terra Incognita
Touch of Clarity
Tranquility
Wash
Khalu
Lucita adv
- Cards that have the "Cancel [a] card" text without the "no cost is
payed" text
Absolution of the Diabolist (ex: is Veles' Hunt's cost paid?)
Aye (ex: "Frenzy" on this Laibon who has a Secure Haven is cancelled,
is the pool paid?)
Blood of Sandman (ex: if the target plays Telepathic Misdirection
"just for cycling", does he burn 1 blood?)
Crimson Fury (ex: does Cloak of Blood on torporised Etienne Fauberge;
action is successful, Crimson Fury gets played, the acting vampire
won't get his blood back)
Delaying Tactics (ex: is Veles' Hunt's cost paid?)
Dogs of War (ex: is Veles' Hunt paid?)
Ebony Fox Hunt (ex: is Veles' Hunt paid?)
Emergency Preparations (ex: Guarded Rubrics is in play, if EP is
played on one's Dragonbound, do they still burn 1 pool ?)
Gangrel Conspiracy (ex: is Veles' Hunt cost paid ?)
Golconda: Inner Peace (ex: if my Golconda on the Secure Haven'd guy is
cancelled, do I still burn 1 pool ?)
Groundfighting (ex: if my Immortal Grapple costing 1 extra blood due
to Terror Frenzy is cancelled, do I still burn 1 blood ?)
Power of All (ex : if my Immortal Grappled costing 1 extra blood due
to Terror Frenzy is cancelled, do I still burn 1 blood ?)
Primal Instincts (ex: I cancel my Slam, I will not get my blood back)
Pseudo-Blindness (ex: I cancel Ozmo's Forgotten Labyrinth, does Ozmo
still burn 1 blood ?)
React with Conviction (ex: Imbued has Secure Haven and is the target
of my Art of Love, do I still burn 1 pool even if React is used to
cancel the Art of Love ?)
Reflex cards (all Abombwe ones; Fae Contortion has the "no cost is
payed" text) (ex: "Frenzy" on the vampire who has a Secure Haven, is
the pool paid ?)
Rigor Mortis (ex: against Resist Earth's Grasp, is the blood paid ?)
Target cards (Hand, Head, Leg, Retainer, Vitals) (ex: sup' Terror
Frenzy is played against the vampire who then plays Target Vitals, if
TV is cancelled, has he 1 less blood ?)
True Love's Face (ex: Slow Withering is in play, if True Love's Face
is cancelled by its own cardtext, has the acting vampire 1 less
blood ?)
Two Wrongs (ex: Two Wrongs is played, then Carna plays Telepathic
Misdirection - is the blood paid ?)
Watchtower: the Wolves Feed (ex: ex: Guarded Rubrics is in play, if a
vamipire is tapped to cancel one's Dragonbound, do they still burn 1
pool ?)
T.J. (ex: is Veles' Hunt's cost paid?)
Watenda (ex: if Watenda cancels a Slam, will the opposing minion have
1 less blood ?)
Count Zaroff (ex: is Veles' Hunt's cost paid?)
Andrew Stuart (ex: if Andrew plays Blood Fury, and reveals another
Blood Fury, does Andrew have 2 less blood ?)
Jan Pieterzoon adv (ex: Guarded Rubrics is in play, if JP adv cancels
one's Dragonbound, do they still burn 1 pool ?)
Santaleous (ex: if my prey plays Archon Investigation, has she lost 3
pool before resolving the bleed ?)
- Cards that have the "cancel [a] card" and the "cost is payed"
Botched Move
Now, the first and last lists are very explicit about how the cost is
handled, but the second isn't. If my guess is correct, all answers to
text inside parentheses should be "Yes" (or "Correct"). But I have
some concerns - some of the mentionned cards don't have enough space
left for a "(no cost is payed)" text to be added. (for example, even
Dark Influences' second occurrence of that pattern has been reduced to
"(no cost)" )
So, the question now is: are some of the cards of the second list
handled in another way than what I have written?
Some cards of the first list and of the second list "oppositely"
match :
- Fae Contortion has a reflex effect using the "no cost is paid" text,
whereas Predator's Communion's (this one has a small overall amount of
text) reflex effect does not mention "no cost is paid". (both cards
are from the LoB set)
- Not to Be (KMW) and Emergency Preparations (Gehenna) have different
texts, but for the same effect.
It has already been ruled numerous times that cards without the "no
cost is paid" mention will have the cancelled card paid (Delaying
Tactics + PTO is a common old example) - has that changed ?
Thanks !
LSJ
> So, the question now is: are some of the cards of the second list
> handled in another way than what I have written?
If it doesn't say "no cost", then the cost of the canceled card is paid.
> It has already been ruled numerous times that cards without the "no
> cost is paid" mention will have the cancelled card paid (Delaying
> Tactics + PTO is a common old example) - has that changed ?
No.
jcrossn...@gmail.com
> floppyzedolfin wrote:
> > So, the question now is: are some of the cards of the second list
> > handled in another way than what I have written?
>
> If it doesn't say "no cost", then the cost of the canceled card is paid.
Weird. I always thought that the "no cost" text was a reminder, and
that payment was considered part of an effect's resolution, rather
than a precursor to it.
> > It has already been ruled numerous times that cards without the "no
> > cost is paid" mention will have the cancelled card paid (Delaying
> > Tactics + PTO is a common old example) - has that changed ?
>
> No.
Delaying Tactics also does not cancel a card, and never has.
jcrossn...@gmail.com
some reason, he included several cards that don't cancel cards in his
list.
> Absolution of the Diabolist (ex: is Veles' Hunt's cost paid?)
This cancels the blood hunt, not the card. It wouldn't even be
possible for AotD to cancel VH as played, because the target of the
blood hunt is not chosen until the action resolves successfully.
> Delaying Tactics (ex: is Veles' Hunt's cost paid?)
As noted in my other post, Delaying Tactics doesn't cancel a card.
Like, not even sort of.
> Dogs of War (ex: is Veles' Hunt paid?)
> Ebony Fox Hunt (ex: is Veles' Hunt paid?)
> Gangrel Conspiracy (ex: is Veles' Hunt cost paid ?)
See my comments on Absoultion of the Diabolist.
> Primal Instincts (ex: I cancel my Slam, I will not get my blood back)
Again, the card is not cancelled; the strike is. In the example given,
it is implied that Slam was played for a maneuver earlier in the
round, and it is now way too late to cancel the whole card.
> Two Wrongs (ex: Two Wrongs is played, then Carna plays Telepathic
> Misdirection - is the blood paid ?)
Two Wrongs doesn't cacel a card. It redirects a bleed.
Jesse
jwnew...@bellsouth.net
> > Two Wrongs (ex: Two Wrongs is played, then Carna plays Telepathic
> > Misdirection - is the blood paid ?)
>
> Two Wrongs doesn't cacel a card. It redirects a bleed.
Two Wronds redirects a bleed AND cancels a card if someone tries to
redirect that bleed again.
-witness1
LSJ
>> Two Wrongs (ex: Two Wrongs is played, then Carna plays Telepathic
>> Misdirection - is the blood paid ?)
>
> Two Wrongs doesn't cacel a card. It redirects a bleed.
Two Wrongs: "The next card that would change the target of this bleed is
canceled as it is played."
In this case, it is canceling Carna's Telepathic Misdirection.
jcrossn...@gmail.com
drrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr
I was referring to the part of the cards effect that often seems like
cancellation, but isn't. Clearly the part that cancels a card does in
fact cancel a card.
I'm gonna go hide in the corner for a while.
Jesse
James Coupe
>floppyzedolfin wrote:
>> So, the question now is: are some of the cards of the second list
>> handled in another way than what I have written?
>
>If it doesn't say "no cost", then the cost of the canceled card is
>paid.
Talking of which, back in 2007, dvorax asked:
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/msg/9befddf345860319
***
> a) II - PLAYING CARDS AND OTHER EFFECTS - C Pay cost and resolve
> effect (unless canceled in step B).
> I suppose, the unless canceled clause is valid for both paying and
> resolving. If so, doesn't it contradict with "paying the cost is
> default"?
Yeah. I'll fix that.
The default is that cost is paid.
***
As of right now:
http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/index.php?line=outline
"C. Pay cost and resolve effect (unless canceled in step B)."
Can this be fixed?
--
James Coupe
PGP Key: 0x5D623D5D YOU ARE IN ERROR.
EBD690ECD7A1FB457CA2 NO-ONE IS SCREAMING.
13D7E668C3695D623D5D THANK YOU FOR YOUR COOPERATION.
Juggernaut1981
> LSJ <vtes...@white-wolf.com> wrote:
> >floppyzedolfin wrote:
> >> So, the question now is: are some of the cards of the second list
> >> handled in another way than what I have written?
>
> >If it doesn't say "no cost", then the cost of the canceled card is
> >paid.
>
> Talking of which, back in 2007, dvorax asked:
>
> ***
>
> > a) II - PLAYING CARDS AND OTHER EFFECTS - C Pay cost and resolve
> > effect (unless canceled in step B).
> > I suppose, the unless canceled clause is valid for both paying and
> > resolving. If so, doesn't it contradict with "paying the cost is
> > default"?
>
> Yeah. I'll fix that.
> The default is that cost is paid.
> ***
>
> As of right now:http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/index.php?line=outline
> "C. Pay cost and resolve effect (unless canceled in step B)."
>
> Can this be fixed?
>
> --
> James Coupe
> PGP Key: 0x5D623D5D YOU ARE IN ERROR.
> EBD690ECD7A1FB457CA2 NO-ONE IS SCREAMING.
> 13D7E668C3695D623D5D THANK YOU FOR YOUR COOPERATION.
It seems as though it works like this...
Cancel Effect ==> card was legally played and cost must be paid (e.g.
Primal Instincts)
Cancel Card ==> card was played and cost may be cancelled as well as
the card (e.g. Charismatic Aura, Direct Intervention)