Visit from the Capuchin (resurrected)
Joshua Duffin
time ago!)
[LSJ 13-Sep-2001]:
> LSJ wrote:
> >
> > "....salem christ...." wrote:
> > >
> > > With Visit From The Capuchin, you get 4 counters and increase your
hand
> > > size by four.
> > > Now, if you play a WwEF, you burn a counter off VFTC, and your
hand size
> > > is reduced by one because of that.
> > > However, WwEF is a "do not replace" card, and cards that are "not
being
> > > replaced" count against your hand size.
> > > So you have a hand size of 10 (7+3 counters), and 10 cards. But
the wwef
> > > is counting against that hand size. So you should only have 9
cards.
> > > So, you must discard an additional card?
> >
> > No. Visit From the Capuchin says that no replacement card is drawn.
> > All cards (incl. Wake) played by the controller of Visit from the
> > Capuchin are "Do not draw to replace this card".
> >
> > So the "Do Not Replace Until X" clause has no bearing - it is
replaced
> > (overridden) by a "This card is not replaced" clause, per Visit from
the
> > Capuchin's text.
>
> Note: I incorrectly agreed with the opposite assertion earlier
> [LSJ 29-JUN-2001].
>
> My apologies for the mistake. The above ruling is correct.
I see that there is currently a ruling entry for this (that Visit + Wake
= only one card and one counter out of your hand) on the White Wolf
site. And I can see the parallel to Meddling of Semsith. But I'm
surprised that Visit was ruled this way, because the text of Visit from
the Capuchin is:
"Put this card into play; put four counters on this card from the blood
bank. Your hand size is +X, where X is the number of counters on this
card. Each time you play or discard a card (except when discarding down
to your hand size), burn a counter from this card (do not draw a
replacement card). Burn this card when the last counter is removed."
The "do not draw a replacement card" is in parentheses. Normally,
parentheses in card text indicate reminder text. If "do not draw a
replacement card" is reminder text (as I always took it to be), it is
merely reminding you that you do not draw a replacement card if your
hand-size decreases simultaneously with a card leaving your hand (as
when one is played or discarded under Visit from the Capuchin). This is
why I had thought, and suggested in that 29-Jun-2001 thread, that
playing a Wake with Evening's Freshness under Visit from the Capuchin
reduced your hand-size by an additional one (beyond that represented by
the loss of the Visit counter, since Wake itself counts against your
hand-size by its own text).
Again, I don't find it untenable that Visit should work the same way
Meddling of Semsith does in this situation - having multiple cards work
the same way is usually a good thing. :-) But I am surprised by it
because of the "reminder text" parentheses on Visit from the Capuchin.
If the 13-Sep-2001 ruling is indeed the final word, perhaps if Visit is
reprinted at any point, it could be printed with the parentheses
removed?
Josh
reminded of things past
Joshua Duffin
"Joshua Duffin" <jtdu...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:bsq7rd$9tl9$1...@ID-121616.news.uni-berlin.de...
> "Put this card into play; put four counters on this card from the
blood
> bank. Your hand size is +X, where X is the number of counters on this
> card. Each time you play or discard a card (except when discarding
down
> to your hand size), burn a counter from this card (do not draw a
> replacement card). Burn this card when the last counter is removed."
Sorry about the follow-up, I realized I had another question after
posting.
Given this ruling, does Visit from the Capuchin's "do not replace"
effect ("until Visit is burned" presumably being the duration of its
effect) in fact override or simply overlap with the "do not replace"
periods on cards played from your hand?
That is, if you play a Wake with Evening's Freshness under Visit, and
the Visit is burned before your next untap phase, will your hand size
not be affected by the not-replacing of the Wake (because Visit has
overridden its normal do-not-replace and it's "forgotten"), or will you
go to a hand size of 6 when Visit is burned (assuming no other effects)
until the Wake's do-not-replace expiresas normal at your next untap
phase?
(The same question applies to shorter periods like the "do not replace
until after combat" of Lucky Blow, but it's less likely to come up with
them.)
Josh
always confused by "overriding" type interactions
LSJ
> The "do not draw a replacement card" is in parentheses. Normally,
> parentheses in card text indicate reminder text.
Card text in parenthesis is often not reminder text.
Aching Beauty
Admonitions
Ankara Citadel
Blissful Agony
Cats' Guidance
Charming Lobby
...
--
LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc.
Links to V:TES news, rules, cards, utilities, and tournament calendar:
http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/
LSJ
>>>LSJ wrote:
>>>>All cards (incl. Wake) played by the controller of Visit from the
>>>>Capuchin are "Do not draw to replace this card".
>>>>
>>>>So the "Do Not Replace Until X" clause has no bearing - it is replaced
>>>>(overridden) by a "This card is not replaced" clause, per Visit
>
> effect ("until Visit is burned" presumably being the duration of its
> effect) in fact override or simply overlap with the "do not replace"
> periods on cards played from your hand?
Visit From the Capuchin's "Do not replace" has a "duration" of "ever".
The card is not replaced. Period.
> That is, if you play a Wake with Evening's Freshness under Visit, and
> the Visit is burned before your next untap phase, will your hand size
> not be affected by the not-replacing of the Wake (because Visit has
> overridden its normal do-not-replace and it's "forgotten"), or will you
> go to a hand size of 6 when Visit is burned (assuming no other effects)
> until the Wake's do-not-replace expiresas normal at your next untap
> phase?
The burning of Visit won't affect the fact that the wake you played is
played without replacing.
For instance:
VftC has 2 counters (so you have 9 cards in hand).
You play Wake. It is not replaced, ever. You burn a counter from VftC
instead of replacing the wake. (So your hand size is now +1, so you
should have 8 cards in hand. You check, and, since you do, you do not
discard or draw cards).
You play some other card. Deflection, say. It is also not replaced, ever.
You burn a counter from VftC instead. Visit is burned. You now have a hand
size of 7. You check your hand. You have seven cards. So you don't draw
or discard.
When your untap rolls around, assuming you haven't played any more cards,
you still have those same seven cards in your hand and your hand size is
still seven. You do not draw.
> (The same question applies to shorter periods like the "do not replace
> until after combat" of Lucky Blow, but it's less likely to come up with
> them.)
The same answer applies.