LSJ: Change of Target, Same Action and NRA Redux
Hodgestar
of Target and I'd like to double-check that I made the right ruling.
There has been discussion of this in the newsgroup before but the most
relevant post I can find is [1] and it's from 2001 and I think it
contradicts the ruling I made.
[1] http://groups.google.co.za/group/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/msg/50ad247926feb9d9
=== Change of Target Text and Rulings ===
Change of Target
[ Action Modifier ]
Only usable when this acting minion is blocked (play before combat, if
any). Untap the acting minion, do not tap the blocking minion, and end
the current action (it is not successful). This minion cannot perform
the same action again this turn.
Rulings:
* Is governed by the "same action" rulings. [RTR19950509]
* Change of Target cannot be used if the action is blocked by some
means other than by a blocking minion (e.g., Brujah Frenzy, Kiss of
Ra). [LSJ19980224]
* Change of Target is played after a minion successfully blocks but
before the blocker is tapped and combat begins. [RTR19991206]
=== Questions ===
* Section 6.1.6 of the rulebook says: "A minion cannot perform an
action with the same action card or via the same card in play
(including from the minion's own card text) more than once each turn,
even if he untaps". Does this mean a minion may take an action
provided by the basic rules themselves multiple times a turn? Which
actions are provided by cards and which are provided by the basic
rules? Specifically are equip, employ or recruit actions provided by
the equipment, retainer or ally being fetched or by the basic rules?
Are rescue and diablerie actions provided by the vampire card in
torpor, or the basic rules?
Bleeds, political actions and the Red List rush action are obviously
all restricted by their own rules (sections 6.1.1, 6.1.7 and 11
respectively).
* Does the "same action" wording in the Change of Target card text
and the ruling refer to the rulebook paragraph discussed above and is
Change of Target intended to restrict the minion playing it in exactly
the same way?
* Is there any different in meaning between the end-action/cancel
wording on Change of Target ("end the current action (it is not
successful)" and Tangle Atropos' Hand ("Cancel the action")?
* Which of the following one-action-per-turn rules affect an action
that Change of Target has been played on:
1) A minion cannot perform more than one bleed action each turn, even
if he untaps. (Section 6.1.6)
2) A minion cannot perform more than one political action each turn.
(Section 6.1.7)
3) Each vampire can take [the Red List rush] action only once each
turn. (Section 11)
=== My Ruling on Saturday ===
Minion A was taking the default bleed action. Minion B blocked
successfully. Minion A played Change of Target. I ruled that Minion A
was then allowed to play Kindred Spirits since this was not the same
action as the default bleed action and Change of Target had canceled
the previous bleed action so the one-bleed-per-turn rule was not
triggered.
Hopefully this was the correct ruling. :/
Schiavo
Simon
Orpheus
>
> Minion A was taking the default bleed action. Minion B blocked
> successfully. Minion A played Change of Target. I ruled that Minion A
> was then allowed to play Kindred Spirits since this was not the same
> action as the default bleed action and Change of Target had canceled
> the previous bleed action so the one-bleed-per-turn rule was not
> triggered.
>
> Hopefully this was the correct ruling. :/
IANLSJ but this just sound awfully wrong...
You just cited the rule yourself above : 1) A minion cannot perform more
than one bleed action each turn, even if he untaps. (Section 6.1.6)
Default bleed or Kindred bleed, it's still a bleed.
Orpheus
LSJ
> Change of Target
> Only usable when this acting minion is blocked (play before combat, if
> any). Untap the acting minion, do not tap the blocking minion, and end
> the current action (it is not successful). This minion cannot perform
> the same action again this turn.
>
> action with the same action card or via the same card in play
> (including from the minion's own card text) more than once each turn,
> even if he untaps". Does this mean a minion may take an action
> provided by the basic rules themselves multiple times a turn? Which
Yes, other than the restricted ones. So a vampire could hunt several times each
turn, for example.
> actions are provided by cards and which are provided by the basic
> rules?
The ones that use action cards are action-card actions, even if the action is
also another type (like bleed or equip).
Similarly, the ones granted by text on in-play cards are actions from
cards-in-play, even if they're also another type.
> Specifically are equip, employ or recruit actions provided by
> the equipment, retainer or ally being fetched or by the basic rules?
Equipment cards are actions cards. Retainer cards are actions cards. Ally cards
are action cards. They're all restricted by the restriction on action cards.
> Are rescue and diablerie actions provided by the vampire card in
> torpor, or the basic rules?
Provided by the basic rules. Vampires have no card text granting the ability to
take those actions.
> Bleeds, political actions and the Red List rush action are obviously
> all restricted by their own rules (sections 6.1.1, 6.1.7 and 11
> respectively).
Yes.
> * Does the "same action" wording in the Change of Target card text
> and the ruling refer to the rulebook paragraph discussed above and is
> Change of Target intended to restrict the minion playing it in exactly
> the same way?
No. Change of Target restricts only repeating the "same action", not a whole
class of actions by rulebook grouping.
> * Is there any different in meaning between the end-action/cancel
> wording on Change of Target ("end the current action (it is not
> successful)" and Tangle Atropos' Hand ("Cancel the action")?
Tangle cancels the action before it reaches the end (before the block is
successful).
> * Which of the following one-action-per-turn rules affect an action
> that Change of Target has been played on:
>
> 1) A minion cannot perform more than one bleed action each turn, even
> if he untaps. (Section 6.1.6)
> 2) A minion cannot perform more than one political action each turn.
> (Section 6.1.7)
> 3) Each vampire can take [the Red List rush] action only once each
> turn. (Section 11)
All of them. Change of Target lifts no restrictions.
>
> === My Ruling on Saturday ===
>
> Minion A was taking the default bleed action. Minion B blocked
> successfully. Minion A played Change of Target. I ruled that Minion A
> was then allowed to play Kindred Spirits since this was not the same
> action as the default bleed action and Change of Target had canceled
> the previous bleed action so the one-bleed-per-turn rule was not
> triggered.
>
> Hopefully this was the correct ruling. :/
No. While the restriction on Change of Target would not prevent a Kindred
Spirits bleed, the block was successful (a requirement for Change of Target to
be played), so that means the bleed reached resolution. And that means the
minion cannot bleed again in the same turn, by the rulebook restriction.
Hodgestar
> IANLSJ but this just sound awfully wrong...
>
> You just cited the rule yourself above : 1) A minion cannot perform more
> than one bleed action each turn, even if he untaps. (Section 6.1.6)
>
> Default bleed or Kindred bleed, it's still a bleed.
The question was whether the rule cited applied -- i.e. whether the
action Change of Target was played on was considered to have
resolved. The confusion centres around what it means to "cancel",
"end" and/or "resolve" an action.
Hodgestar
> ...
Thanks for the swift response. Just to check my new understanding I
now think all of the following are true:
* A vampire may attempt to rescue itself or a single other vampire
from torpor multiple times per turn (using the basic rescue action).
* A vampire may attempt to diablerize a single other vampire multiple
times per turn (using the basic diablerie action).
* The "This minion cannot perform the same action again this turn"
text on Change of Target essentially restricts just the repetition of
the basic actions that aren't already restricted to once-per-turn
since actions provided by action cards or card text are already
restricted by the rules.
* Only actions that are resolved count towards the "same action" and
once-per-turn action rules.
Which leaves me with just the question of how to determine whether an
action resolved. Your final paragraph seemed to indicate that it is
the successful block that makes the action resolved rather than the
"end the action" text on CoT. This leads me to the conclusion that a
vampire who bled and played The Kiss of Ra could then bleed with Force
of Will since The Kiss of Ra ends the action and cancels the block
attempt?
Schiavo
Simon
Neil
> No. While the restriction on Change of Target would not prevent a Kindred
> Spirits bleed, the block was successful (a requirement for Change of Target to
> be played), so that means the bleed reached resolution. And that means the
> minion cannot bleed again in the same turn, by the rulebook restriction.
I assume "Red Herring", also played when the minion is successfully
blocked, overrides this due the card text explicitly cancelling the
action, rather than ending it, but adds a "same action" action
restriction.
Red Herring
[Action Modifier]
[chi] Only usable when this acting vampire is blocked. Untap the
acting vampire, do not tap the blocking minion, and cancel the current
action and combat. Take the card played to perform the action (if any)
back into your hand. Your vampires cannot attempt the same action
again this turn. Discard down to your hand size.
[CHI] As above, but tap the blocking minion.
Jozxyqk
> * The "This minion cannot perform the same action again this turn"
> text on Change of Target essentially restricts just the repetition of
> the basic actions that aren't already restricted to once-per-turn
> since actions provided by action cards or card text are already
> restricted by the rules.
Right. If an empty vampire attempts to hunt, gets blocked, and plays
Change of Target, he can't cardlessly hunt again.
In most cases that means he's "stuck", but he could play a card-based
hunt action (i.e. Vulture's Buffet)...
Johann von Doom
> I assume "Red Herring", also played when the minion is successfully
> blocked, overrides this due the card text explicitly cancelling the
> action, rather than ending it, but adds a "same action" action
> restriction.
No. The vampire must be blocked in order to play Red Herring, so the
action reached resolution, so that vampire cannot attempt to bleed
again this turn. Once you're blocked, "end the action" and "cancel the
action" become synonymous with regards to repeating the action.
Note that the restriction you're referring to on Red Herring refers to
all your vampires, not only the one who just acted. That's the reason
for the presence of the "same action" text.
John Eno
LSJ
> On Jun 17, 12:39 pm, LSJ <vtes...@white-wolf.com> wrote:
>> ...
>
> Thanks for the swift response. Just to check my new understanding I
> now think all of the following are true:
>
> * A vampire may attempt to rescue itself or a single other vampire
> from torpor multiple times per turn (using the basic rescue action).
Yes.
> * A vampire may attempt to diablerize a single other vampire multiple
> times per turn (using the basic diablerie action).
Yes.
> * The "This minion cannot perform the same action again this turn"
> text on Change of Target essentially restricts just the repetition of
> the basic actions that aren't already restricted to once-per-turn
> since actions provided by action cards or card text are already
> restricted by the rules.
Yes. Adding a restriction doesn't inherently cancel other restrictions.
> * Only actions that are resolved count towards the "same action" and
> once-per-turn action rules.
Well, resolving has nothing to do with whether one action is the "same action"
as another.
But the restrictions on repeating an action only notice actions that resolve, yes.
> Which leaves me with just the question of how to determine whether an
> action resolved.
When it reaches "Resolve the Action".
http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/rulebook/rulebook.html#sec6_2_3
> Your final paragraph seemed to indicate that it is
> the successful block that makes the action resolved rather than the
> "end the action" text on CoT. This leads me to the conclusion that a
> vampire who bled and played The Kiss of Ra could then bleed with Force
> of Will since The Kiss of Ra ends the action and cancels the block
> attempt?
Right.
Juggernaut1981
>
> > Your final paragraph seemed to indicate that it is
> > the successful block that makes the action resolved rather than the
> > "end the action" text on CoT. This leads me to the conclusion that a
> > vampire who bled and played The Kiss of Ra could then bleed with Force
> > of Will since The Kiss of Ra ends the action and cancels the block
> > attempt?
>
> Right.
LSJ> Kiss of Ra + Freak Drive.
Freak Drive @ FOR in particular.
Can it be played after a Kiss of Ra has been played or does KoR's
requirement of "during block attempts" end the action and consequently
not meet the FOR conditions on Freak Drive?
Freak Drive
Type: Action Modifier
Requires: Fortitude
Cost: 1 blood
[for] Only usable at the end of a successful action (after resolving
the action). This vampire untaps.
[FOR] As above, **but usable even if the action is blocked (play after
combat, if any)**.
Kiss of Ra, The
Type: Action Modifier
Requires: Fortitude
Cost: 3 blood
Only usable when a vampire who does not have Fortitude attempts to
block this acting minion.
[for] The block attempt is canceled, the blocking vampire burns 2
blood, and the current action is ended (without combat).
[FOR] As above, and send the blocking vampire to torpor.
Chris Berger
Freak drive is only usable at the end of a successful action, or if
blocked (at superior). If Kiss of Ra is played, that means that
neither thing happened. Similarly if you play Salt of Thoth or one of
the other cards that causes an action to fail.
Hodgestar
On Jun 17, 5:29 pm, LSJ <vtes...@white-wolf.com> wrote:
> > Which leaves me with just the question of how to determine whether an
> > action resolved.
>
> When it reaches "Resolve the Action".http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/rulebook/rulebook.html#sec6_2_3
I confess I find the "it's resolved if it reaches the 'Resolve the
Action' section" a bit vague. :)
Would it be correct to say: "An action resolved if there was an
uncancelled block, or it reached the point where the cost (if any)
would be payed. Otherwise the action did not resolve." ?
LSJ
Yes. [6.2.3]