[LSJ] Meddling of Sensmith?
Peter D Bakija
As you are probably the only person on this list who has insight to this, you
might be willing to shed some light on this here card issue.
A) Meddling of Sensmith is a very powerful card. Whether or not it is a broken
card is certainly debateable, but not at issue in this here question. I think
it is clear, however, that it is a very powerful card, being a single card with
a limited cost that puts a *huge* restriction on the target. Thus, powerful. It
is also a card that provides a completely new mechanic to the game--no other
card in print provides such a power that is provided by Meddling.
B) Given that it is a powerful card, and a card that provides a completely new
mechanic to the game, how does anyone justify this card being released as a
*promo* card? Cards that are a good idea for promos are alternate art versions
of cards, preview cards that are going to be released soon anyways, or slightly
altered yet mostly equivelant versions of other cards--basically, cards that
aren't particularly neccessary for play purposes, but are fun to get and have
some collection value (Dan Murdock and Mariana Gilbert, for example, aren't
really much different than many other similar vampires, and while fun to have,
aren't really neccessary to any particular strategy). Cards that are not a good
idea for promos are powerful cards that provide a completely new mechanic to
the game, as they move a game (such as VTES) rapidly away from "$$$$ does not =
success" towards "$$$$=success", which is never good for a game. Ever.
Meddling is a powerful card that provides a new mechanic. It is only availaible
to a limited pool of people (those that attend this particular event). That it
is both powerful and providing a new effect means that people are going to want
many of them. Those who manage to accuire many of them will have a substantial
advantage over those who do not, in an environment where accuiring many of
these cards will be difficult due to how these cards are distributed as only
promos (although certainly not impossible, provided enough cash to spend). This
way leads to madness.
Regardless of the perceived inappropriateness of the power and ability of this
card by many, how did this card get designed and how was it decided that it
would only exist as a promo?
Peter D Bakija
PD...@aol.com
http://www.geocities.com/bakija6
"These streets are filled with danger and madness! MADNESS!"
-Zim.
LSJ
>
> LSJ,
>
> As you are probably the only person on this list who has insight to this, you
> might be willing to shed some light on this here card issue.
Any rules questions?
Any problems you've found in play?
--
LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc.
Links to revised rulebook, rulings, errata, and tournament rules:
http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/
Chris Berger
"LSJ" <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote in message
news:3C632FBE...@white-wolf.com...
> Peter D Bakija wrote:
> >
> > LSJ,
> >
> > As you are probably the only person on this list who has insight to
this, you
> > might be willing to shed some light on this here card issue.
>
> Any rules questions?
> Any problems you've found in play?
>
promo?
James Coupe
Berger <ark...@ugcs.caltech.edu> writes:
>So you're saying that there is no justification for releasing the card as a
>promo?
Erm, I think you're deliberately mis-reading his post.
People are suggesting that there are huge over-powered problems with the
card. LSJ appeared to be asking for empirical proof of what these
problems are.
If these cannot be established - which thus far they have not - it is
unlikely that further 'justification' of the card is needed.
--
James Coupe but I lust after the raw pow0r of c.
PGP 0x5D623D5D together with the humping great
EBD690ECD7A1FB457CA2 elephant arse of gnome.
13D7E668C3695D623D5D - Vashti
Jason Liang
James Coupe <ja...@zephyr.org.uk> wrote in message
news:6yBaXaSa...@gratiano.zephyr.org.uk...
> In message <uyG88.10235$bh3....@rwcrnsc52.ops.asp.att.net>, Chris
> Berger <ark...@ugcs.caltech.edu> writes:
> >So you're saying that there is no justification for releasing the card as
a
> >promo?
>
> Erm, I think you're deliberately mis-reading his post.
>
> People are suggesting that there are huge over-powered problems with the
> card. LSJ appeared to be asking for empirical proof of what these
> problems are.
>
I think what people are suggesting is not that the card is over powered, but
that either
a) the card is unique and would expand deck construction if available in
larger quantities
or
b) the card is unique and would greatly shift the metagame if available in
larger quantities
Thus they feel this card is one which should have been available in larger
quantities because of the play value it adds to the game.
Cheers,
Janus the Judgment
Chris Berger
> Berger <ark...@ugcs.caltech.edu> writes:
>
> >So you're saying that there is no justification for releasing the card as
a
> >promo?
>
> Erm, I think you're deliberately mis-reading his post.
>
> People are suggesting that there are huge over-powered problems with the
> card. LSJ appeared to be asking for empirical proof of what these
> problems are.
>
translate for me, or I would always be going around misinterpreting LSJ.
I woulda guessed he was just saying that he had no intention of commenting
on the card. He might say something along the lines of it's not his job to
explain the design team's intentions, or that there's no need to comment, or
what have you. It is at least possible that the reason he gave no
justification for the card is that there is no justification and it should
never have been printed. I'll choose to believe that until he contradicts
me. (Wouldn't be surprised if that contradiction were forthcoming,
however.)
Peter D Bakija
>>People are suggesting that there are huge over-powered problems with the
card. LSJ appeared to be asking for empirical proof of what these
problems are.>>
No, no, what I am suggesting is that this is a powerful card that provides an
unprecidented ability, and consequently has no real place being a promo card,
and I am wondering why it is.
>>If these cannot be established - which thus far they have not - it is
unlikely that further 'justification' of the card is needed.>>
That it is potentially very powerful and provides an unprecidented new ability
isn't really a question, it is pretty much reality--the card provides an
ability that is both new and powerful. Why it was a good idea to make such a
card a promo is a question.
The only justification I am looking for (in this here instance) is why it was a
good idea to make a card that provides a powerful and new ability a difficult
to attain promo card.
Peter D Bakija
>>I think what people are suggesting is not that the card is over powered, but
that either>>
No, no, I have clearly suggested that the card is overpowered, but that is
neither here nor there in this context. The question I am asking here is that
assuming this card is both powerful and provides a new, unprecidented ability
(which it is and it does), there is no real justification for it being released
only as a promo card.
>>Thus they feel this card is one which should have been available in larger
quantities because of the play value it adds to the game.>>
Nope. I feel that if a card is going to be produced that is both powerful and
provides a unprecidented, new ability, there is no good rational for it only
being released as a promo card, which is apparently the case in this instance.
John
was a
> good idea to make a card that provides a powerful and new ability a
difficult
> to attain promo card.
Because everybody will want said powerful and new ability and maybe... just
maybe... they will decide to attend the promotional event where they can
attain the promotional card.
A promotional card that attains it goal... getting people to an event. And
as for the idea that a promotional card should duplicate existing powers or
be "new" art... where exactly and in what holy book of cards is this
written? I can think of several powerful cards that have appeared in other
games as promotional and they accomplished their goal also. Double Overtime
from the Battletech CCG comes to mind as perhaps the strongest example.
(Ack... I admit it.... I used to play BT...forgive me... I'm reformed)
I know of several people in my local group who will be attending their first
organized tournament at the local storyline event (for the card). I have
seen posts here about others heading to their first tournament shortly. And
while not everybody who goes to a storyline tournament is going just for a
card... they are out there.
We may not appreciate the effects that Meddling may bring into the game.
This remains to be seen. But to criticize White Wolf for producing effective
(ie successful in promoting the game) promotional cards that create interest
in events is counter productive.
Respectfully,
John
Curevei
>as for the idea that a promotional card should duplicate existing powers or
>be "new" art... where exactly and in what holy book of cards is this
>written? I can think of several powerful cards that have appeared in other
>games as promotional and they accomplished their goal also. Double Overtime
>from the Battletech CCG comes to mind as perhaps the strongest example.
Promos aren't remotely as evenly distributed as cards in sets are. By making a
promo significantly different than a normal card, you create a fairness issue.
Alternate artwork promos (of staple cards) do not create a fairness issue.
And, IME, customers - player/collectors and collectors - value them highly.
I see no argument for putting out promos that do something different from
normally available cards.
Frederick Scott
> Peter D Bakija wrote:
> > The only justification I am looking for (in this here instance) is why it
> > was a good idea to make a card that provides a powerful and new ability a
> > difficult to attain promo card.
>
> Because everybody will want said powerful and new ability and maybe... just
> maybe... they will decide to attend the promotional event where they can
> attain the promotional card.
>
> A promotional card that attains it goal... getting people to an event.
I suppose we have to give you your due and admit you did answer Peter's
question above. But Peter's question is poorly chosen for the point I think
he's trying to make: not that there isn't a purpose that the card positively
fulfills, but that it was a poor choice for a promo card due to some of
the negative impact it may have on the game.
The fact is, no matter how much incentive you provide people, a fair number
of them will not be able to attend a storyline tournament this month. A
promo card that was unique (that is, identifiable from all the other cards
in the game) and has only a mild effect on the metagame or even none at
all (e.g. a reprinted card with new art) is likely to have only marginally
less impact on motivating players to come to the tournaments. I'd be
surprised if many players make the final decision about whether to show up
based on just the play text of this card. (If nothing else, not that many
of the players will likely know what the card is before they show so it
_can't_ affect their decisions.)
So if the card turns out to be something that makes much difference in a
metagame, then it will truly be an unfortunate choice for a promo card,
given that supply of them which get distributed to players will likely be
extremely limited.
For me, the jury's still out on whether it will make much of an effect on
the game. Still, I think I'm surprised at the choice for same reasons
that Peter is giving. It just seems like it was a lot more risk than
they should be taking with a promo card.
Fred
John
making a
> promo significantly different than a normal card, you create a fairness
issue.
Fairness aside. The goal of a promo card is to PROMOTE. White wolf wants to
interest and encourage people to attend the Storyline events. Would as many
people come out if they were promised an alternate artwork Blood doll? I do
not think so (IMO). While alternate art has some appeal to some type of
collectors its virtually worthless to others.
Given the choice that white wolf has in selecting a promotional card its in
their best interest to select a card that will encourage the most people to
come out to games. A new, different card will beat a card where the only
thing new is artwork.
> I see no argument for putting out promos that do something different from
> normally available cards.
I'll give you an example. A player in my local group is attending Storyline
here JUST for the card. No other reason. If you offered an alternate blood
doll art or a card that duplicated blood doll he would probably not attend
(or if he did attend not knowing what the card would and received a reworked
card be he would be a little pissed off. Now is he the average player?
Probably not. Is he the only person out there thinking this way - no.
White wolf want people playing and attending events.
A new card idea (which of course would have new artwork) as compared to an
old card with just new artwork or a new card that duplicates an existing
card will draw less people. Is this not a clear concept?
Try not to look at the problem from the players point of view. As we all
know we do not make the decision. White Wolf makes the decision based on its
own criteria. I suspect its number one criteria for this promotional card is
to create interest and encourage participation at Storyline events. New
card accomplishes this better than a reworked card. Hands down.
-John
John
number
> of them will not be able to attend a storyline tournament this month.
> less impact on motivating players to come to the tournaments. I'd be
> surprised if many players make the final decision about whether to show up
> based on just the play text of this card. (If nothing else, not that many
> of the players will likely know what the card is before they show so it
> _can't_ affect their decisions.)
Maybe its a rare case but I'll tell you that somewhere in the neighborhood
of 15-20 people are expected to show up at the tournament here. At least
three that I have talked to are showing up for the promotional card - all
were uncertain as to wether they would attend until they discovered the card
text. Now all three will be in attendance. Thats a minimum of 15% of the
attendance with less than 25% (5) of the expected population sampled)
I agree with you that some people will be unable to attend a storyline
tournament and if whitewolf never releases Meddling in a future set these
people may never get the card. Is this unfair - yes. Is it unreasonable or
avoidable - no. I myself do not have either of the two earlier promo only
cards - Dan and Mariana Gilbert. As I collect for the collecting, not
necessarily usefulness I would really like to have these cards. Being
unwilling to trade heavily or pay money for them I have accepted that I will
probably never have these cards. To me it is the exact same situation with
Meddling. For my purposes it does not matter the power of the card when
determining if I want it. I don't have one - therefore I want. But if I
wasn't a rabid collector I wouldn't care about a reworked card (eg: new
art).
<to be honest I was not aware at the time (and still not) of where and how
the two earlier promo cards were available. Had I known, and known what the
cards were it would not have motivated me to put a whole heck of a lot of
effort into attending whatever I had to as the cards meet your definition of
a good promo card - nothing really new or game changing. If they had offered
dramatically new cards my motivation would have been higher. Heck its a moot
point though as I wasn't aware of their existance until after the fact>
If I should break my leg tomorrow and be unable to attend the storyline
tournament while those in my playgroup do, that's my misfortune and I'll add
Meddling to the list of cards I expect to never have. Its the nature of the
game. Having or not having one card will not destroy Jyhad.
But for the new player, the introductory player, who has bought a few decks
and isn't big into the collecting thing (yet) a reworked art card has next
to no value. ("I've got enough of them") These are the players that White
Wolf is after and wants to draw them into the tournament scene. They know
we're likely to plunk down our money set after set (until we run out of
money ;-D ) while a beginner may not. A card that the player knows that
they cannot get (and cannot get a card that duplicates it) anywhere else is
a definite motivator to attend the tournament.
> So if the card turns out to be something that makes much difference in a
> metagame, then it will truly be an unfortunate choice for a promo card,
> given that supply of them which get distributed to players will likely be
> extremely limited.
We'll just have to disagree here as I feel a card that has no use, or that
duplicates an existing card (or is similar) does not fulfil the intention of
a PROMOtional card. I do see your point. And I am concerned about the
effects of Meddling. But I will not condem White Wolf for attempting to
encourage attendance until I've seen the effects that Meddling actually
has - as opposed to the effects we believe we see in the future.
If Meddling does prove to have an adverse effect its easily correctable.
White Wolf can errata, restrict or ban its use in tournament play, and as
always we are free to use whatever house rules we like. (our group has house
rules a page long). But without the risk taken the game will not progress.
Consider this:
Which is a worst case:
A. White Wolf promos a powerful new card, ensuring that only a certain
number of cards hit the marketplace. If the card has to be restricted or
banned only those with the card will be annoyed (and only if they disagree
with the decision) and for the most part people will only lose the use of
one card in their massive library of cards. The effect on the game a whole
is limited by the small release of the card
If the card turns out to not be too powerful it could then be included in
the next set.
or
B. White Wolf buts a powerful new card in their next expansion, in starters
and boosters and everybody and their dog has ten to twenty copies (if not
more) of the card if they like. The card unbalances play dramatically at
first until restricted/banned, etc. Now we all have a whack of useless cards
in our libraries and the game may suffer the effects of the card potentially
driving people away prior to any needed correction.
The promotional release is the perfect place (IMO) to try a radical new card
as the effects of this card are limited by the nature of the distribution
method. Ideally the card won't unbalance play but if it does it can be
removed with less commotion than release in a full set would cause.
Sorry about the length...
-John
Frederick Scott
>
> > Promos aren't remotely as evenly distributed as cards in sets are. By
> > making a promo significantly different than a normal card, you create a
> > fairness issue.
>
> Fairness aside. The goal of a promo card is to PROMOTE. White wolf wants to
> interest and encourage people to attend the Storyline events. Would as many
> people come out if they were promised an alternate artwork Blood doll?
Maybe not quite as many but it would still motivate people - which allows it
to fulfill its goal. It's just a question of balancing priorities. It's not
worth a potential fiasco to motivate a few more people.
Fred
jazzbeaux
"John" <verg...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:YJH88.37141$2x2.2...@news3.calgary.shaw.ca...
> > The only justification I am looking for (in this here instance) is why
it
> was a
> > good idea to make a card that provides a powerful and new ability a
> difficult
> > to attain promo card.
>
> Because everybody will want said powerful and new ability and maybe...
just
> maybe... they will decide to attend the promotional event where they can
> attain the promotional card.
Yes, this is well and good
>
<snip>
they are out there.
>
> We may not appreciate the effects that Meddling may bring into the game.
> This remains to be seen. But to criticize White Wolf for producing
effective
> (ie successful in promoting the game) promotional cards that create
interest
> in events is counter productive.
However the fact remains that it will be a limited availablity card,
therefore to get 4 for a deck will be difficult, perhaps if it was reprinted
in a years time in which ever is the next set after Camarilla, then there
would be less complaints because:
a) its worth going to the promo to get card early and play it
b) if you can't get there, there is hope of getting said card in future, the
artwork could be changed so the promo is unique
Jazzbeaux
>
> Respectfully,
> John
>
>
>
LSJ
No, I'm not.
What's the justification for releasing Mariana Gilbert as a promo?
Andrew S. Davidson
>Alternate artwork promos (of staple cards) do not create a fairness issue.
>And, IME, customers - player/collectors and collectors - value them highly.
If the card is valued highly then you still have a fairness issue.
But the real issue is not the method of distribution - that seems
fairly good spread. It's the number of cards in circulation. I
suppose that this card was printed on the rare sheet but was it an R1
an R2 or what? Has anyone seen an uncut sheet for Bloodlines?
Andrew
Frederick Scott
>
> On 08 Feb 2002 03:53:45 GMT, Curevei wrote:
>
> >Alternate artwork promos (of staple cards) do not create a fairness issue.
> >And, IME, customers - player/collectors and collectors - value them highly.
>
> If the card is valued highly then you still have a fairness issue.
The "fairness issue" is about playing the card in future games, not about
the value of the card itself.
> But the real issue is not the method of distribution - that seems
> fairly good spread.
Actually, it's extremely unlikely to be.
Fred
Flux
news:6F346A0E45EBB929.DD057EBE...@lp.airnews.net:
> But the real issue is not the method of distribution - that seems
> fairly good spread. It's the number of cards in circulation. I
> suppose that this card was printed on the rare sheet but was it an R1
> an R2 or what? Has anyone seen an uncut sheet for Bloodlines?
All rare slots were accounted for in BL (and I believe so were uncommons
and commons). It's more likely that all promos were printed in a sheet of
their own, repeated several times to fill the sheet.
Flux
James Coupe
<verg...@hotmail.com> writes:
>Fairness aside. The goal of a promo card is to PROMOTE. White wolf wants to
>interest and encourage people to attend the Storyline events. Would as many
>people come out if they were promised an alternate artwork Blood doll? I do
>not think so (IMO). While alternate art has some appeal to some type of
>collectors its virtually worthless to others.
What *can* work is providing fairly unique cards - Dan and Mariana - but
making sure that they're still fairly "ordinary".
Jay Kristoff
actual answer.
I don't think that Meddling of Sensmith is too powerful/needs
errata/should be banned. It has the same hindrances that all votes have.
It does seem like a very odd choice as a promo only card. I have seen
several tournament players get quite frustrated to see that I have a 4 count
Toreador with PRE and cel, and that they don't. I can't help but wonder
about the unhappy faces a few years from now when a handful of us will be
able to prevent a player from replacing cards during any minion phase.
I think that a better promotional card for these storyline events would
have been:
Too Many Crabs
+ 1 Stealth action
Put this card on a vampire you control. The vampire with this card gains 1
capacity during your influence phase. When the capacity of that vampire
reaches 12 burn him.
Jay Kristoff, V:EKN Prince of Columbus OH
PS: anyone want to volunteer to do the art for TMC?
Jay Kristoff
Immediate errata for Too Many Crabs:
>Too Many Crabs
>+ 1 Stealth action
>Put this card on a vampire you control. The vampire with this card gains 1
>capacity during your influence phase. When the capacity of that vampire
Sorry, I am not here to provide more cheese for the Soul Gem
Jay
Thomas Pichler
> Peter D Bakija wrote:
> >
> > LSJ,
> >
> > As you are probably the only person on this list who has insight to this, you
> > might be willing to shed some light on this here card issue.
>
> Any rules questions?
> Any problems you've found in play?
Dodging the question is an answer in itself.
Thomas
Thomas Pichler
> John wrote:
> >
> > > Promos aren't remotely as evenly distributed as cards in sets are. By
> > > making a promo significantly different than a normal card, you create a
> > > fairness issue.
> >
> > Fairness aside. The goal of a promo card is to PROMOTE. White wolf wants to
> > interest and encourage people to attend the Storyline events. Would as many
> > people come out if they were promised an alternate artwork Blood doll?
>
[Sorry for cutting in in the wrong place, but my newsserver doesn't list all the
responses in the thread.]
Alternate art Blood Dolls might not draw huge crows. Alternate art [insert card
you consider a power rare of your choice] would, just as much as a power promo,
while still being less unfair toward those who can't/won't attend events.
Thomas
Curevei
I see no reason why they wouldn't if they didn't give out unique promos.
Meanwhile, I want a fair game.
>A new card idea (which of course would have new artwork) as compared to an
>old card with just new artwork or a new card that duplicates an existing
>card will draw less people. Is this not a clear concept?
Have you played CCGs with promos? Let's see:
1) Promos aren't very good marketing. Latest issue of Scrye had 4 promo cards
for 4 different games. Most of these are thrown out, another bunch are put on
eBay, they sell a few more mags to people who follow those games *already*.
The storyline tournaments are largely an existing player base phenomenon. The
true draw for those who don't play that often is the storyline format.
2) Promos aren't useful to newbies unless they are tournament level cards and
the newbies realize that holding on to them is worthwhile. Promos are a way to
turn off newbies. Babylon 5 got a reputation (inaccurate) for being a game
where you had to chase promos to compete. People would tell you they wouldn't
try B5 because they thought they'd never be able to compete without the promos.
3) What draws people is perceived value. I've played CCGs with alternate
artwork promos and ones without. I've seen no evidence that people didn't
value the alternate artwork (from a cash aspect, which I trust a lot more than
what people say).
>Try not to look at the problem from the players point of view. As we all
>know we do not make the decision. White Wolf makes the decision based on its
>own criteria. I suspect its number one criteria for this promotional card is
>to create interest and encourage participation at Storyline events. New
>card accomplishes this better than a reworked card. Hands down.
First, why would I not *want* to think of it from a player's POV? Promotions
only work if players or potential players care about them.
As for your conclusion that a new card is a better promotion, I don't agree
(obviously).
And, you are still ignoring the downside. If you don't care about fairness,
then there's no argument here.
Brian Reed
"Thomas Pichler" <tom.p...@aon.at> wrote in message
news:3C642361...@aon.at...
> Frederick Scott schrieb:
> Alternate art Blood Dolls might not draw huge crows.
Good. I hate crows.
-Brian
Frederick Scott
>
> > John wrote:
> > >
> > > > Promos aren't remotely as evenly distributed as cards in sets are. By
> > > > making a promo significantly different than a normal card, you create a
> > > > fairness issue.
> > >
> > > Fairness aside. The goal of a promo card is to PROMOTE. White wolf wants to
> > > interest and encourage people to attend the Storyline events. Would as many
> > > people come out if they were promised an alternate artwork Blood doll?
>
> [Sorry for cutting in in the wrong place, but my newsserver doesn't list all the
> responses in the thread.]
(You should also remove attributions to people who you've snipped entirely from
your quoted text - saves confusion.)
> Alternate art Blood Dolls might not draw huge crows. Alternate art [insert card
> you consider a power rare of your choice] would, just as much as a power promo,
> while still being less unfair toward those who can't/won't attend events.
I don't think anything less than a foil card would draw huge crows. (They like
the shiny things, doncha know?) As for huge crowds, it's still a moot point
unless the nature of the promo is going be advertised well in advance. Having it
leaked out by means of Usenet once the tournaments start is not really going to
get the word out that well. Even then, the difference is likely to be marginal.
That said (and with the usual official denials that any card as a "power rare"
truly exists), that actually wouldn't be a bad thought in my humble opinion.
Fred
Peter D Bakija
>>Because everybody will want said powerful and new ability and maybe... just
maybe... they will decide to attend the promotional event where they can
attain the promotional card.>>
I dunno, man. I don't know a single person who has ever gone to an event
specifically to get a promo card. Ever. Sure, everyone appreciates promo cards
at events, and it makes for a nice memento of the occasion, and everyone
appreciates the game company that hands out promo cards, but I have never
spoken to anyone, ever, who said "I'm just going to this event to get the promo
card."
Granted, this is completely anecdotal evidence (as is everything on this
newsgroup), but I'm not seeing that "power-promo" = "tournament attendance".
People go to tournaments because they like the game and have both the time and
money to go. People don't go to tournaments because they may or may not like
the game, and don't have either the time or money to go. Promo's, I suspect,
rarely, if ever, have an impact upon tournament attendance.
>>A promotional card that attains it goal... getting people to an event. And
as for the idea that a promotional card should duplicate existing powers or
be "new" art... where exactly and in what holy book of cards is this
written?>>
It is written in the book of "experience with various card games and companies
over the years dictates that promos that differ from this format tend to
alientate and piss off just as many people as not", which is a pretty long and
well regarded book.
As Curevei already mentioned elsewhere, Precidence (who made the B5 CCG, a good
game that went bad) *constantly* fought battles with their player base over
their use of promo cards. The ones that were farily mundane, but fun, variant
cards, everyone loved and were perfectly happy with. The ones that were
powerful and provided unique abilities caused a great deal of unrest amongst
the player base, to the point of driving people away from the game, as well as
creating a situation where people would stay away from trying the game, as
there was a perception of B5 being a game with "power-promos" that were
neccessary for competetive play, but impossible for newer players to get.
>>And while not everybody who goes to a storyline tournament is going just for
a
card... they are out there.>>
I suspect that such folks are very few and far between, and that the number of
people who will become disgruntled by a company releasing "power-promos" far
outweighs the number of folks who go to tournaments specifically for the promo
cards.
That, and do we *want* people going to tournaments just to get the promo cards?
People who do this generally have very little invested in the tournament and
often play for a single round and then leave. There was a huge thread recently
about just this sort of thing, and the general consensus was that no one liked
people who show up at a tournament just to get cards, play one round, and then
bail.
>>But to criticize White Wolf for producing effective (ie successful in
promoting the game) promotional cards that create interest in events is counter
productive.>>
How does creating a "power-promo" successfully promote the game? Most people
going to these tournaments don't know what the promo card does before they get
there, and I suspect that the vast majority of them aren't going to the
tournament to specifically get the promo card.
Critisizing a company, however, for making a very questionable decision in
terms of both game design and customer relations is often very productive.
Heck, there are those who would say that my (and others with the same opinion)
criticism of such things was directly responsible for Dadelus games offering a
trade in program for their Flashpoint Shadowfist expansion...
Peter D Bakija
>>What's the justification for releasing Mariana Gilbert as a promo?>>
Mariana Gilbert is not a powerful card that provides an unprecidented new
ability not reflected elsewhere in the game.
Mariana Gilbert is a 4 point vampire with an in clan superior and an in clan
inferior. Is there another vampire exactly like Mariana? No, but for 5 points,
you can get very similar vampires, and for 4 points, you can also get very
similar vampires. Is it nice to have Mariana? Sure--she fits very nicely in a
few different deck types, but if you don't have access to her, you can easily
replace her with various comperable vampires.
Dan Murdock is very similar--he has the exact same capacity and skills as an
already existing vampire (Doll Face), and trades having no clan (a minor
disadvantage) for a sometimes useful, corner case special ability. And a cool
picture. Sure, he is nice to have, but if your opponent plays one in a
tournament, you reaction is going to be "Cool! I haven't seen him yet!", rather
than "Man, that card is sooooo powerful. Why the hell is it only a promo?"
Meddling, however, provides a powerful ability (how powerful is up to
deabte--there are those who would claim it provides *too* powerful of an
ability, such a perception is problem enough, regardless of whether it is true
for a promo card) and it provides an ability that is not reflected elsewhere in
the game.
Mariana and Dan are interesting but not particularly powerful or neccessary,
and fairly mundane. Meddling is both powerful and unusual. Making a card that
is both powerful and unusual as a promo is a really good way to irritate one's
player base--it makes new players unhappy, as they have no access to such
cards. It makes older players unhappy, as they often percieve that their well
balanced game environment is being thrown out the window for $$$=success. It is
just a bad idea.
LSJ
>
> LSJ wrote:
> >>What's the justification for releasing Mariana Gilbert as a promo?>>
>
> Mariana Gilbert is not a powerful card that provides an unprecidented new
> ability not reflected elsewhere in the game.
Hmm.
I couldn't find any official justifications when I did a search.
Please cite your source(s) for my edification, thanks.
Chris Berger
> Peter D Bakija wrote:
>
> > Mariana Gilbert is not a powerful card that provides an unprecidented
new
> > ability not reflected elsewhere in the game.
> > [...]
>
> Hmm.
> I couldn't find any official justifications when I did a search.
> Please cite your source(s) for my edification, thanks.
>
yourself (as you are, of course, in a better position to know the answer
than any of the rest of us).
LSJ
I was not associated with WotC when they were released, sorry.
I had no part in developing, releasing, or justifying either of them.
Incidentally, for those who make claims regarding unique abilities being
mutually exclusive with promo-only, how did you search your library for
a Giant's Blood without using a promo-only card?
Peter D Bakija
>>I couldn't find any official justifications when I did a search.
Please cite your source(s) for my edification, thanks.>>
There is no official justification, as no one ever requested one. Perhaps if
someone felt justification was neccessary, there may have been one. Who knows.
The justification I gave was one of rationalization. Such rationalization is
supported by the fact that very few, if any, folks were perturbed by the
existance of Dan Murdock or Mariana Gilbert, for reasons I mentioned above.
This is simply not the case with Meddling of Sensmith. Plenty of folks seem
perturbed by the very existance of the card, let alone the fact that it is a
promo.
What we have here is a situation where there are a good number of people
looking for such a justification--which says something in and of itself--when
there were not similar folks looking for a justification for Mariana Gilbert.
I don't however, expect to see a justification. It couldn't hurt to ask,
though.
What my belief and hope is, however, is that someone other than you (LSJ) was
responsible for both the design of and decision to release this card in the
manner it was released. Knowing your track record with the design of and ruling
of this game, I find it difficult to conceive that this was the result of your
work. I could be wrong, however, and if so, I apologize for the presumption.
Peter D Bakija
>>Incidentally, for those who make claims regarding unique abilities being
mutually exclusive with promo-only, how did you search your library for
a Giant's Blood without using a promo-only card?>>
You don't, and you don't worry about it. Such an ability is certainly
occasionally effective, but hardly one that is particularly powerful.
The effect of Meddling is incredibly powerful, and one that will have a great
effect on the game environment as a whole (given enough people buying Meddlings
off e-bay for $20.00 each...). I doubt anyone would say the same of Dan
Murdock's ability.
Chris Berger
>
> Incidentally, for those who make claims regarding unique abilities being
> mutually exclusive with promo-only, how did you search your library for
> a Giant's Blood without using a promo-only card?
>
Library... You just have to search more slowly.
Curevei
>supported by the fact that very few, if any, folks were perturbed by the
>existance of Dan Murdock or Mariana Gilbert, for reasons I mentioned above.
>This is simply not the case with Meddling of Sensmith. Plenty of folks seem
>perturbed by the very existance of the card, let alone the fact that it is a
>promo.
BTW, I am perturbed by the existence of Dan and Mariana. But, I don't consider
them at issue given that that was a long time ago and was a decision by a
different publisher.
Actually, Meddling isn't even what I'm addressing when I rant about bad promos.
What I'm addressing is decisions to be made.
Chris Arthur
Peter D Bakija <pd...@aol.comANTISPAM> wrote in message
news:20020208165649...@mb-cl.aol.com...
> John wrote:
> >>Because everybody will want said powerful and new ability and maybe...
just
> maybe... they will decide to attend the promotional event where they can
> attain the promotional card.>>
>
> I dunno, man. I don't know a single person who has ever gone to an event
> specifically to get a promo card. Ever. Sure, everyone appreciates promo
cards
> at events, and it makes for a nice memento of the occasion, and everyone
> appreciates the game company that hands out promo cards, but I have never
> spoken to anyone, ever, who said "I'm just going to this event to get the
promo
> card."
>
My Storyline event is a 1 1/2 hour drive away (and I'm not a morning
person). I wouldn't be going if it wasn't for the Promo.
Halcyan 2
>good
>game that went bad) *constantly* fought battles with their player base over
>their use of promo cards. The ones that were farily mundane, but fun, variant
>cards, everyone loved and were perfectly happy with. The ones that were
>powerful and provided unique abilities caused a great deal of unrest amongst
>the player base, to the point of driving people away from the game, as well
>as
>creating a situation where people would stay away from trying the game, as
>there was a perception of B5 being a game with "power-promos" that were
>neccessary for competetive play, but impossible for newer players to get.
Never been a big fan of Precedence Entertainment myself. You might be amused
that to "solve" the problem of unequal distributions in promos, Precedence is
*kind enough* to offer many promos through its on-line store. At a very hefty
cost of course...
Halcyan 2
Archibald Zimonyi
Wow, lots of posts.
Powerful card? Maybe so. But what is it, it's an action. Can be blocked.
Powerful things usually are. What is it more, vote. Usually, even though
there are vote cards for the acting minion, there are even more vote
cards for the reacting minions.
For each action there is at least one counter action. In my experience I
personally seem to make actions for which most people use the counter
actions but I can't go around crying about it.
It is a promo only card, so what? This is a special event which White
Wolf invited its players of V:TES to participate in, an event which most
likely will have an impact on the game itself, with changes in the
Vampire history and possibly coming books. So they hand out a special
card for those who want have such an event. You don't have to be a
Prince to host an event, I know, I hosted events before I became Prince.
If you want a card then start hosting events. If you can't because
your're too busy (or lazy if that actually happens to be the case) then
you're going without one. So you will have to do like everyone else, buy
them from eBay when someone most likely will sell them. Will they be in
the game-winning decks even if they are all powerful? Nopes, and I
suggest you all read the Malkavian Newsletter for February to see why.
Archibald Zimonyi
Malkavian Prince of Gothenburg
Halcyan 2
>Powerful things usually are. What is it more, vote. Usually, even though
>there are vote cards for the acting minion, there are even more vote
>cards for the reacting minions.
Yes, but once again it requires all the other players to play with those
specific counters. It forces other players to be reactive and to build decks
defensively. It is much easier on the other hand to build an assertive deck
relying on cards to get the vote through.
>For each action there is at least one counter action. In my experience I
>personally seem to make actions for which most people use the counter
>actions but I can't go around crying about it.
Yes, but to dredge up the Return to Innocence example, yet again, there were
also counters. Deflection and Telepathic Misdirection would foil Return to
Innocence. But one card (such as Return or Meddling) shouldn't *force* all the
other players to pack their decks full of counters.
>t is a promo only card, so what? This is a special event which White
>Wolf invited its players of V:TES to participate in, an event which most
>likely will have an impact on the game itself, with changes in the
>Vampire history and possibly coming books. So they hand out a special
>card for those who want have such an event. You don't have to be a
>Prince to host an event, I know, I hosted events before I became Prince.
>If you want a card then start hosting events. If you can't because
>your're too busy (or lazy if that actually happens to be the case) then
>you're going without one. So you will have to do like everyone else, buy
>them from eBay when someone most likely will sell them. Will they be in
>the game-winning decks even if they are all powerful?
And what if, say, it's because there's not much of a playgroup around? Hope
White Wolf is kind enough to send promos to your 4-person or even maybe
1-person storyline tournament?
Halcyan 2
Cameron
I hardly saw the original as cheese for the gem, I thought it was
quite amusing, and may make an interesting trick deck. As you have it
now the card is pointless. Can't even use it to get around an
obediancing Etrius, so whats the point.
Cameron
LSJ
>
> LSJ wrote:
> >>Incidentally, for those who make claims regarding unique abilities being
> mutually exclusive with promo-only, how did you search your library for
> a Giant's Blood without using a promo-only card?>>
>
> You don't, and you don't worry about it. Such an ability is certainly
> occasionally effective, but hardly one that is particularly powerful.
I thought someone was complaining about unique abilities being found
on promo-only cards.
> The effect of Meddling is incredibly powerful, and one that will have a great
> effect on the game environment as a whole (given enough people buying Meddlings
> off e-bay for $20.00 each...). I doubt anyone would say the same of Dan
> Murdock's ability.
As always, if there is a problem, it will be addressed.
So far, of course, there is no problem.
See also the many claims that Rewind Time was broken (which appeared immediately
after the card text was avaiable). Rewind Time has failed to require fixing
as yet.
Thomas Pichler
> John wrote:
> >>Because everybody will want said powerful and new ability and maybe... just
> maybe... they will decide to attend the promotional event where they can
> attain the promotional card.>>
>
> I dunno, man. I don't know a single person who has ever gone to an event
> specifically to get a promo card. Ever.
Me neither. I dare say a number of players have only bothered constructing decks
for some tourneys in the past because they wanted to get Dan/Mariana, but afaik all
of those actually tried to do well once they were there.
[As opposed to the BL pre-release, where one person was specifically there to get
the new cards.]
> Promo's, I suspect, rarely, if ever, have an impact upon tournament attendance.
I'm pretty sure they had some impact at the local "last chance" Dan/Mariana
tournament, but again, seems everyone that did show did with a deck and intent to
actually do well in the tournament, too.
> >>And while not everybody who goes to a storyline tournament is going just for
> a
> card... they are out there.>>
>
> I suspect that such folks are very few and far between, and that the number of
> people who will become disgruntled by a company releasing "power-promos" far
> outweighs the number of folks who go to tournaments specifically for the promo
> cards.
As is, I'll be going if time permits as I originally planned.
Knowing of course that if I can't make it I will be missing out on what will be an
impossible [loosely defining impossible as "if I had the money to have the trades
people will want for it, I could just go buy it instead] to trade for power-promo
card instead of some promo that it might actually be possible to trade for [like
alternate art, or like "just another vampire" Mariana] means I'm (once again) not
pleased with the direction VTES is taking.
> That, and do we *want* people going to tournaments just to get the promo cards?
> People who do this generally have very little invested in the tournament and
> often play for a single round and then leave.
By the looks of it that's what I'll wind up having to do, probably not having time
for the entire tournament but not willing to put up with having to try to trade for
a fragging power promo. Hopefully if it comes to this, it will be possible to not
play a round at all, which at least wouldn't (most likely negatively) influence the
course of the tournament.
Thomas
LSJ
> Peter D Bakija wrote:
> > specifically to get a promo card. Ever.
>
> Me neither. I dare say a number of players have only bothered constructing decks
> for some tourneys in the past because they wanted to get Dan/Mariana, but afaik all
> of those actually tried to do well once they were there.
?
There are quite a few people going to tournaments for the first time and only because
of the promo card. In fact, there are several first-time tournament organizers who
are organizing tournaments in order to give their players access to the promo.
Peter D Bakija
>>I thought someone was complaining about unique abilities being found
on promo-only cards.>>
No, no. Someone is complaning about *significant* unique abilities being found
on only promo cards. Someone was fairly clear about this in previous posts.
Dan Murdock's special ability is almost completely insignificant, in terms of
overall play and game environment. Meddling, not so much.
>>As always, if there is a problem, it will be addressed.
So far, of course, there is no problem.>>
I'd like to think that such obvious problems would be avoided before they
became problems.
>>See also the many claims that Rewind Time was broken (which appeared
immediately after the card text was avaiable). Rewind Time has failed to
require fixing as yet.>>
And see also the many claims that Return to Innocence and Thoughts Betrayed
were broken. Such claims were made within virtual minutes of these cards being
released. Sadly, it took years to fix them.
Peter D Bakija
>>There are quite a few people going to tournaments for the first time and only
because of the promo card. In fact, there are several first-time tournament
organizers who are organizing tournaments in order to give their players access
to the promo.>>
I find it difficult to fathom that this is as big of a factor as some folks
here seem to be trying to make it--no one knew what the card did before the
tournaments were arranged, no one knew what the card did before a week ago, and
no one knew what the card did before they decided to run such an event. Most
players don't know what the card does before they decide to go to a torunament.
Are you honestly trying to tell me that someone, somewhere out their said "Hmm,
I have never run a tournament before. If I run this one, my play group will get
access to an unknown, possibly good, possibly useless promo, and many of them
will come out of the woodwork to come to this tournament that wouldn't
normally, simply because I am offering this possibly good, possibly useless
mystery card. I shall do that now!"
Umm, yeah.
Peter D Bakija
>>Never been a big fan of Precedence Entertainment myself. You might be amused
that to "solve" the problem of unequal distributions in promos, Precedence is
*kind enough* to offer many promos through its on-line store. At a very hefty
cost of course...>>
I'm right there with you, man. I liked the B5 game--it was a fun clever game
with a great license, but between the stupid power promos and the highly
questionable last expansion, our player base of 8-10 local players have
dwindled to zero of late.
Sad.
tetragrammaton
"Peter D Bakija" <pd...@aol.comANTISPAM> ha scritto nel messaggio
news:20020208165649...@mb-cl.aol.com...
> John wrote:
<snip>
> I dunno, man. I don't know a single person who has ever gone to an event
> specifically to get a promo card. Ever.
Actually, as many as 4 person, coming from very far,
will attend at the storyline tournament here
in Rome just to get the meddling of semsith.
<snip>
tetragrammaton
Emiliano, vekn prince opf Rome
> <snip>
>
Ethan Burrow
wrote:
>Are you honestly trying to tell me that someone, somewhere out their said "Hmm,
>I have never run a tournament before. If I run this one, my play group will get
>access to an unknown, possibly good, possibly useless promo, and many of them
>will come out of the woodwork to come to this tournament that wouldn't
>normally, simply because I am offering this possibly good, possibly useless
>mystery card. I shall do that now!"
Speaking for Austin, most of the new players showed up because of the
Storyline aspect. They wanted to influence the WoD storyline, and the
promo card was just a bonus. Hell, we saw 2 Ravnos decks out of 14
<g>
However that was before the text of Meddline of Semsith hit the net.
Dunno if that'll actually increase attendence for later Storyline
Tournaments or not, although I know it'll probably convince some
veterans to attend as many Storyline tournaments as possible to
accumulate as many Meddlings as they can.
Ethan Burrow - Prince of Austin
saa...@yahoo.com
http://whitestar.ddg.com/vtes/
Robert Goudie
> LSJ wrote:
> >>I thought someone was complaining about unique abilities being found
> on promo-only cards.>>
>
> No, no. Someone is complaning about *significant* unique abilities being found
> on only promo cards. Someone was fairly clear about this in previous posts.
>
> Dan Murdock's special ability is almost completely insignificant, in terms of
> overall play and game environment. Meddling, not so much.
>
> >>As always, if there is a problem, it will be addressed.
> So far, of course, there is no problem.>>
>
> I'd like to think that such obvious problems would be avoided before they
> became problems.
I don't think he's saying that they just release any old card and let our play
decide whether or not its overpowered. When Scott (if he's the designer)
releases a card he is saying that the card is balanced and that there are, and
will be, no problems.
> >>See also the many claims that Rewind Time was broken (which appeared
> immediately after the card text was avaiable). Rewind Time has failed to
> require fixing as yet.>>
>
> And see also the many claims that Return to Innocence and Thoughts Betrayed
> were broken. Such claims were made within virtual minutes of these cards being
> released. Sadly, it took years to fix them.
Yeah, but we all know those cards were created under WotC by a completely
different design team. So far we've seen Sabbat War, Final Nights, and
Bloodlines without any card needing errata or banning to reduce its power. I
hope we wouldn't have as difficult a time convincing Scott to address a broken
card. To date he hasn't given us an opportunity to test him.
-Robert
rob...@vtesinla.org
Derek Ray
LSJ <vte...@white-wolf.com> mumbled something about:
>See also the many claims that Rewind Time was broken (which appeared immediately
>after the card text was avaiable). Rewind Time has failed to require fixing
>as yet.
The claims that Rewind Time were broken were based largely on a number
of people initially either misreading the card, outright failing to
understand it, or having "Counterspell" reflexes from Magic kick in.
Once people apprehended that RT's SR feature could only be played by an
untapped vampire (can't Wake, there's no action), the "broken" remarks
dwindled rapidly into the distance. And once people realized that you
couldn't play RT against an action modifier (pesky card text, again),
the "broken" remarks all but stopped -- it's generally more effective to
DI the Conditioning, the Freak Drive, and the stealth.
However, a far different situation applies with Meddling. I believe
that most people have correctly read the card and understand its effect.
I have even pointed out that the card does NOT go away when its target
is ousted, adding yet another disadvantage to playing Meddling.
I probably have a deck or two that would function under the influence of
Meddling, but I can't think of many. It's my experience that I
generally only have the cards-in-hand for one action at the start of my
turn. Since I generally have 4 vampires out, this means that 75% of my
game stops dead -- I simply won't have any cards to play. My vampires
bleed for 3 at no stealth and get killed, or call a vote that they can't
pass, or remain untapped with nothing to do except idle pointlessly
(since I haven't been able to cycle to any reaction cards).
Similarly, I rarely have more than one Wake in hand at any given time.
But many people have seen me play 3 and 4 on a single turn, through
cycling reaction, intercept, and combat cards against minions. No
longer -- I will only be able to defend against one action, and then I
will have an empty hand.
Suggestions that I take actions with those "spare vampires" and use the
built-in mechanic to remove the card are a laugher, because such cards
as Elder Kindred Network, Kindred Coercion, and Delaying Tactics
exist... even if the defending deck DOESN'T have vote lock already. DT
is even better in this deck than in an Anarch Revolt deck, because there
is only one card in play providing the action. DT it once and nobody
else can try to remove it, unlike just removing the "2nd" Anarch Revolt.
So what do we end up with? A card that says "You don't get to play." I
don't like such cards in principle, especially when they can be slotted
into an already-effective strategy.
--
"There's no gray. There's just white that's got grubby." -- T.P.
Derek Ray
Archibald Zimonyi <arc...@netg.se> mumbled something about:
>
>Wow, lots of posts.
>
>Powerful card? Maybe so. But what is it, it's an action. Can be blocked.
The Ventrue have Fortitude, and expect Daring the Dawn to see use.
Alternatively, my example uses Forgotten Labyrinth. +3 stealth. Now
you must be playing a heavy intercept deck to catch me.
>Powerful things usually are. What is it more, vote. Usually, even though
>there are vote cards for the acting minion, there are even more vote
>cards for the reacting minions.
None of the vote cards for reacting minions stands up to Awe/Voter
Captivation when played by a 10-cap. Either you have a 10-cap yourself
to play Kindred Coercion, you DI the Awe, or you play Delaying Tactics
(which just means you get hit with it next turn).
I do not like being forced to include 6-8 Delaying Tactics in my deck
simply to guarantee that I will be able to play my deck.
Frederick Scott
>
> LSJ wrote:
> >>There are quite a few people going to tournaments for the first time and only
> because of the promo card. In fact, there are several first-time tournament
> organizers who are organizing tournaments in order to give their players access
> to the promo.>>
>
> I find it difficult to fathom that this is as big of a factor as some folks
> here seem to be trying to make it--no one knew what the card did before the
> tournaments were arranged, no one knew what the card did before a week ago, and
> no one knew what the card did before they decided to run such an event. Most
> players don't know what the card does before they decide to go to a torunament.
I think there's the difference between what Scott's saying and what you're
saying. There may be a real draw for these tournaments due to the prospect
of getting a unique, interesting promo card that can't be obtained elsewhere.
If so, it probably is a thing that works sight unseen. In fact, it may work
even *better* when the players don't know what it is because their hopes for
it may outstrip the reality, each person wanting a card that enhances their
favorite area of the game. By the time they realize it wasn't the type of
card they had hoped for, they're already at the tournament.
I think you're correct in saying that any particular card is not likely to
be a draw for its own sake unless White Wolf advertises what it is beforehand,
in whatever literature announces the tournament itself. But I'm thinking Scott
was not claiming that players are going to tournaments for the first time for
*this* promo card - only for "a promo card". Much as the use of promos for
this kind of a purpose disturbs me - especially when there aren't alternate
means of getting them, such as SASE offers - I still think he may be right.
Fred
LSJ
>
> LSJ wrote:
> >>There are quite a few people going to tournaments for the first time and only
> because of the promo card. In fact, there are several first-time tournament
> organizers who are organizing tournaments in order to give their players access
> to the promo.>>
>
> I find it difficult to fathom that this is as big of a factor as some folks
> here seem to be trying to make it--no one knew what the card did before the
> tournaments were arranged, no one knew what the card did before a week ago, and
> no one knew what the card did before they decided to run such an event. Most
> players don't know what the card does before they decide to go to a torunament.
Many princes decided to run an event because there would be a promo card available.
Many players decided to go to the events to get the promo.
The nature of the promo is immaterial to them and their decisions (since they made
those decisions without knowing the nature of the promo).
> Are you honestly trying to tell me that someone, somewhere out their said "Hmm,
> I have never run a tournament before. If I run this one, my play group will get
> access to an unknown, possibly good, possibly useless promo, and many of them
> will come out of the woodwork to come to this tournament that wouldn't
> normally, simply because I am offering this possibly good, possibly useless
> mystery card. I shall do that now!"
Yes. That's what the players/princes in question have claimed themselves.
The world is a big place.
It takes many kinds.
Frederick Scott
>
> Once people apprehended that RT's SR feature could only be played by an
> untapped vampire (can't Wake, there's no action), the "broken" remarks
> dwindled rapidly into the distance.
Wait a minute! When did this get ruled? If you can't use a WwEF to allow
for a Rewind Time based on the logic that no action has yet occurred to allow
the Wake to allow the RT, then by the same logic, you cannot use a Rewind
Time against an action even when untapped. By the time an action exists to
allow one to play *ANY* reaction card, be it WwEF, Rewind Time, or any other,
then it much be too late to cancel the action.
Fred
LSJ
> >>As always, if there is a problem, it will be addressed.
> So far, of course, there is no problem.>>
>
> I'd like to think that such obvious problems would be avoided before they
> became problems.
Obvious problems are.
Meddling doesn't qualify.
> >>See also the many claims that Rewind Time was broken (which appeared
> immediately after the card text was avaiable). Rewind Time has failed to
> require fixing as yet.>>
>
> And see also the many claims that Return to Innocence and Thoughts Betrayed
> were broken. Such claims were made within virtual minutes of these cards being
> released. Sadly, it took years to fix them.
Well, that was with a different RT/DT.
And you'll forgive the current RT/DT if they don't jump to errata every card that
a few people claim is broken before even playing with it (or not, that's up to
you, of course).
LSJ
>
> Derek Ray wrote:
> >
> > Once people apprehended that RT's SR feature could only be played by an
> > untapped vampire (can't Wake, there's no action), the "broken" remarks
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> > dwindled rapidly into the distance.
>
> Wait a minute! When did this get ruled? If you can't use a WwEF to allow
Not sure. It's just a clarification.
Can't Wake in torpor to play, say, Reform Body (since you can't play reaction
cards in torpor).
Can't Wake in a master phase to play Rewind (since you can only play reaction
cards when another Methuselah's minion is acting). [1.6.3.5]
> for a Rewind Time based on the logic that no action has yet occurred to allow
> the Wake to allow the RT, then by the same logic, you cannot use a Rewind
> Time against an action even when untapped. By the time an action exists to
> allow one to play *ANY* reaction card, be it WwEF, Rewind Time, or any other,
> then it much be too late to cancel the action.
No. There's an action (described on the card played - the acting minion
tapped to start it).
Peter D Bakija
>>Obvious problems are.
Meddling doesn't qualify.>>
Ahh, see. Many disagree here, and see Meddling as an obvious problem.
>>Well, that was with a different RT/DT.>>
Clearly. Never claimed otherwise.
>>And you'll forgive the current RT/DT if they don't jump to errata every card
that
a few people claim is broken before even playing with it (or not, that's up to
you, of course).>>
Not not forgiving. Simply disapointed that such a glaring exception has slipped
through the cracks.
Peter D Bakija
>>The nature of the promo is immaterial to them and their decisions (since they
made those decisions without knowing the nature of the promo).>>
Many have claimed (not you, but others involved in this discussion) that it is
good to make "power-promos", as it gets people to want to go to tournaments to
get them. As the nature of the promo is immaterial, it stands that making
promos that are simply alternate art or slight variations on mundane cards will
be just as successful at attracting players to events and organizers to run
them.
Thus, no need to produce powerful cards that provide significant, unique
effects as promos, as folks are going to run and attend tournaments due to
promo incentive regardless of the actual card involved.
Wouldn't it make sense, then, to insure that future promos be benign, rather
than potentially incindiary, given the reaction in just a week to this
particular card?
>>Yes. That's what the players/princes in question have claimed themselves.
The world is a big place.
It takes many kinds.>>
Crazy. Who woulda thought. I still don't buy it that promos are a significant
factor in tournament attendance, but as others claim it is, I don't have much
to stand on here.
Simply as anecdotal evidence, I am attatched to a fairly large VTES playgroup.
When we go to tournaments, it is because we can arrange the time off and have
the money to do so. When we can't, it is 'cause we don't. The existance of a
promo card has zero bearing on the ability or desire to go to a given
tournament--there is a nearby storyline tournament that no one around here can
go to do to conflicting events and work/family schedules. After the text of the
promo incentive was revealed, a bunch of local players said "Crazy, I'd like to
get that stupidly powerful promo card!", but regardless, still no one is going.
If the promo card was simply an alternate art version of, say, Tourtured
Confession, it wouldn't have made any difference either. We can go or we can't,
promos play no role. Promo cards are a fun bonus, but in no way incentive in
either direction. But that is just us, I guess.
Thomas Pichler
> Actually, as many as 4 person, coming from very far,
> will attend at the storyline tournament here
> in Rome just to get the meddling of semsith.
>
Check all that appy:
[ ] Most of the locals would still have come if there only were an alternate
art promo.
[ ] You don't really want the 2 guys who wouldn't to disrupt the tournament by
bringing "well I do have to play a game eh?"-decks, anyway.
[ ] None of those 4 would have come without knowing the awesome power of
Meddling of Semsith beforehand.
[ ] Those 4 must consider MoS uber-powerful and ultra-valueable to make the
trip.
[ ] It's not good for a card to be considered uber-powerful by players.
[ ] Better start praying MoS isn't as powerful as people seem to think.
[ ] Why the hell did WW print something like MoS, anyway?
[ ] Next time, foil Freak Drives will do just nicely.
Thomas
Peter D Bakija
>>I don't think he's saying that they just release any old card and let our
play
decide whether or not its overpowered. When Scott (if he's the designer)
releases a card he is saying that the card is balanced and that there are, and
will be, no problems.>>
Oh, I got that. I just think that this particular instance does not fall under
that particular rubric. For whatever reason, this card was released, and it was
a mistake, both in the way it was relased (as a promo only card) and in the
effect of the card (in that it is overly powerful with an effect greatly
outweighing its cost).
I completely agree that the last few expansions were very solid and mercifully
free of damaging cards. That is why I am so taken aback by this particular
instance.
>>Yeah, but we all know those cards were created under WotC by a completely
different design team. So far we've seen Sabbat War, Final Nights, and
Bloodlines without any card needing errata or banning to reduce its power. I
hope we wouldn't have as difficult a time convincing Scott to address a broken
card. To date he hasn't given us an opportunity to test him.>>
Oh, I know. The expansions have been great, solid, and free of problems. I
simply don't believe that Meddling is a continuation of this positive trend.
Frederick Scott
>
> Frederick Scott wrote:
> >
> > Derek Ray wrote:
> > >
> > > Once people apprehended that RT's SR feature could only be played by an
> > > untapped vampire (can't Wake, there's no action), the "broken" remarks
> > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> > > dwindled rapidly into the distance.
> >
> > Wait a minute! When did this get ruled? If you can't use a WwEF to allow
>
> Not sure. It's just a clarification.
> Can't Wake in torpor to play, say, Reform Body (since you can't play reaction
> cards in torpor).
> Can't Wake in a master phase to play Rewind (since you can only play reaction
> cards when another Methuselah's minion is acting). [1.6.3.5]
OK, I'm still confused then. Is what Derek said accurate? Is there some reason
that a tapped Time Lord can't react to a carded action taken by another player's
minion to first Wake with Evening's Freshness and then, since he can now play
reaction cards as if untapped, play a Rewind Time and cancel the action? If
so, then by what reasoning? And by what reasoning would that not apply to simply
playing a Rewind Time if the Time Lord actually is untapped?
Fred
Derek Ray
Frederick Scott <freds64_at_...@removethis.com> mumbled
something about:
>LSJ wrote:
>> > Derek Ray wrote:
>> > > Once people apprehended that RT's SR feature could only be played by an
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>> Can't Wake in a master phase to play Rewind (since you can only play reaction
>> cards when another Methuselah's minion is acting). [1.6.3.5]
>
>OK, I'm still confused then. Is what Derek said accurate? Is there some reason
Yes, it is. I said that Rewind Time's "Sudden Reversal" feature... etc.
>that a tapped Time Lord can't react to a carded action taken by another player's
>minion to first Wake with Evening's Freshness and then, since he can now play
>reaction cards as if untapped, play a Rewind Time and cancel the action? If
He certainly can play Wake and then RT against a carded action, yes.
He couldn't do it against a Master card being played, though.
Gomi no Sensei
You can definitely play WWEF to Rewind an Action; no-one's disputing that.
What is prohibited is Waking to Rewind a Master card, since there is
no action ongoing and Wake lacks Rewind's specific 'usable even though
there's no action' text.
gomi
--
Blood, guts, guns, cuts
Knives, lives, wives, nuns, sluts
Chris Berger
"LSJ" <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote in message
news:3C6568BD...@white-wolf.com...
>
> And you'll forgive the current RT/DT if they don't jump to errata every
card that
> a few people claim is broken before even playing with it (or not, that's
up to
> you, of course).
>
the current RT/DT, after they have "playtested" and subsequently released
this particular card.
Halcyan 2
>reason
>that a tapped Time Lord can't react to a carded action taken by another
>player's
>minion to first Wake with Evening's Freshness and then, since he can now play
>reaction cards as if untapped, play a Rewind Time and cancel the action? If
>so, then by what reasoning? And by what reasoning would that not apply to
>simply
>playing a Rewind Time if the Time Lord actually is untapped?
First off, I *resent* your usage of the term "Time Lord." Krassimir, Nu, and
Synesios are not even in the ballpark compared to the likes of The Doctor and
The Master. The True Brujah are not true Time Lords in any sense of the term!
Heaven forbid, they don't even use a TARDIS!!!
BTW: Back to the topic of Meddling, I'm also in the camp of those who fear that
it is overpowered and may really mess things up. HOWEVER, I do agree with LSJ
that we should at the very least give it a chance. LSJ made a good point with
Rewind Time, so let's stop the bellyaching and *try* Meddling for a little bit.
And, if it turns out to be as broken as we all think it is (which it probably
will), we'll complain about it *then*. But I do think most people really are
jumping the gun right now...
Halcyan 2
The Fanboy
bellyaching and >*try* Meddling for a little bit. And, if it turns
out to be as broken as we >all think it is (which it probably will),
we'll complain about it *then*. But >I do think most people really are
jumping the gun right now...
There's a huge difference here.
Rewind Time has a highly prohibitive cost, can only be played by three
vampires in the game, and it only effects one card ever. You have to
play a second to affect a second card, etc.
Meddling can be called by any vampire, can only be removed by the same
mechanic that puts it into play, effects the target for the remainder
of the game or until someone gets the referendum to remove it off, and
shuts down the target's ability to play during that time.
The first time I saw Rewind Time, I thought "nice card. SR and DI for
no master card slot, and it's costed such that they can't totaly stop
someone from playing." The first time it was played against me, I was
slightly annoyed.
The first time I saw Meddling, I thought "that seems a little
powerful." Then I read it again - and realized it effects EVERY turn,
not just the target's turn. Then I thought "um...they don't like
people playing this game anymore." The first time it was played
against me, I was unable to play the game.
If it hadn't been a tournament, i would've simply walked away from the
game - the outcome, for me at least, was quite clear. I was ousted
two turns later because the person who played it on me had brujah
princes, and i was relying on fortitude to stay alive. Game over.
In a friendly game, this is the kind of card that will cause me to
leave the table until the person who played it is ousted. AFter all,
once I'm rendered unable to play - what's the point of sticking
around. Might as well not be there so the game moves that much faster
for everyone else - because I'm just going to be bored sitting there
watching them play.
Fanboy
The Fanboy
> Captivation when played by a 10-cap. Either you have a 10-cap yourself
> to play Kindred Coercion, you DI the Awe, or you play Delaying Tactics
> (which just means you get hit with it next turn).
Wouldn't it be easier to just DI the Meddling?
If I'm goign to pay a pool to make sure I don't get made not able to
play, I'm going to make absolutely sure it sticks.
But you do have the right point - I'm so angered by this card that I'm
half inclined to pack 6 Direct Interventions and 8 Delaying Tactics in
my next deck - which will of course be a heavy intercept deck. I was
entirely unable to play the game after being hit with it at the Austin
storyline.
There shouldn't EVER be a card that forces people to play with certain
other cards. It starts to take away from the fun of the game.
Heavily.
Anyone here who played that other card game several years ago might
remember Necro Summer. The summer where if your deck couldn't deal
with Necropotence, you might as well just concede every game, because
they were %80 of the tournament scene?
Well - looks like we're approaching Meddling Summer. Gentelme,
prepare your Direct Interventions.
Fanboy
James Coupe
<pd...@aol.comANTISPAM> writes:
>>>Yes. That's what the players/princes in question have claimed themselves.
>The world is a big place.
>It takes many kinds.>>
>
>Crazy. Who woulda thought. I still don't buy it that promos are a significant
>factor in tournament attendance, but as others claim it is, I don't have much
>to stand on here.
There is a reason that non-magazine promos were asked for in the first
place.
--
James Coupe but I lust after the raw pow0r of c.
PGP 0x5D623D5D together with the humping great
EBD690ECD7A1FB457CA2 elephant arse of gnome.
13D7E668C3695D623D5D - Vashti
Derek Ray
texas...@yahoo.com (The Fanboy) mumbled something about:
>> None of the vote cards for reacting minions stands up to Awe/Voter
>> Captivation when played by a 10-cap. Either you have a 10-cap yourself
>> to play Kindred Coercion, you DI the Awe, or you play Delaying Tactics
>> (which just means you get hit with it next turn).
>
>Wouldn't it be easier to just DI the Meddling?
That would be just about as effective, I imagine.
I prefer to not DI action cards, as this leaves the minion untapped and
they can take either another action, or the original action all over
again if they have a second card. Obviously, if there aren't enough
table votes to fail the Meddling, then I'm going to have to DI the
Meddling. In most cases, though, I prefer to DI the action modifier --
since you then can't play a second action modifier of that type, your
action generally fails, and your minion doesn't have recourse to a
second action.
I will usually make exceptions to this for "corner-case" action cards
such as Disputed Territory, Far Mastery, and other cards that people
likely won't have more than 1 or 2 of in their deck.
>If I'm goign to pay a pool to make sure I don't get made not able to
>play, I'm going to make absolutely sure it sticks.
As I mentioned elsewhere, after the first time someone did that, I would
certainly make sure I had 2 Meddlings in hand next time I tried to call
one. =) But it should certainly kill the first one.
Peter D Bakija
>>There is a reason that non-magazine promos were asked for in the first
place.>>
'Cause it is incentive to attend a tournament?
I don't really understand how promos increase attendance or make it more
desireable to go to an event. As I mentioned elsewhere, when I go to a
tournament, it is because I have the time and money to go. When I don't, it is
'cause I don't. The existance of a promo card has no bearing whatsoever. Sure,
I like getting free cards at events (unique promos or not), but I'm not going
to go to an event that I woudn't have gone to anyway just because of a promo
give away, and I wouldn't not go to an event that I normally would have because
there is no promo give away.
Are there actually people out there who are (dare I say) shallow enough to go
to a tournament that they would not have otherwise due to a promo give away?
Don't these people have more influential factors in their lives that govern
their ability to attend such events or not (like families, work, money,
transportation issues, etc) such that the existance of a promo is essentially a
non issue in terms of "Will I go to this event or not?"
I go to tournaments and events 'cause I like the game, I like playing the game,
I like the competition, and I like meeting new players (or hanging out with
ones I already know). I don't go just to win fabulous cash prizes, nor would I
go just to get pre-release cards a week early or just to get a promo card. If
there is a promo give away, I happily accept it and think "Cool. Free stuff!",
but such a give away isn't going to affect my experience such that I'd be more
likely to go to the next tournament if there was another give away, nor would
it make me less likely to go to the next tournament if there was not a give
away.
I'm just not seeing it, still.
berni...@attbi.comholdlespam
Well Fanboy, there are options.
You could play Big Vampires with Superior Dominate (doesn't everyone
anyway?) and shoot down the votes with Kindred Coercion.
Honestly, I don't know what deck type you were playing at the Storyline
event but EVERY time Meddling came into play the effects were
negligible.
In fact, I placed the card on my predator and going to a 6-card hand
screwed MY game. Personally I think there's a lot of overreacting
going on right now.
Reminds me of all the bitching that came about when people first learned
of Ian Forrestal's ability. He's *So* Broken people would say.
Yet I can count the number of times Uncle Ian has hit the table on one
hand, after all these years..
When I read the card text for Meddling of Semsith before actually
playing it, I too thought it was Uber-strong. Not thinking so anymore.
BernieTime
Chris Berger
<berni...@attbi.comHOLDLeSPAM> wrote in message
news:3c67370a....@netnews.attbi.com...
difference between Rewind Time and Meddling. The difference is that the
people who complained about Ian and Rewind Time were wrong and their
complaints were unfounded. They were also in the minority. Most of the
people who have a problem with Meddling are not the people who had problems
with Ian and Rewind Time (I certainly had no problem with either... they're
both balanced cards, although RT is an annoying kick in the pants), but the
people who had problems with RtI, ToRIII, Pulled Fangs, etc. Those cards
were broken, and complaints against them were warranted.
Regardless of whether or not the current design team had anything to do with
those previous broken cards, know that the critics on this newsgroup had a
fair bit to do with their fixing, and the brokenness was seen both before
and after the cards were used in play. Of course, there are probably some
who were against RtI who are on the opposite side of this argument, but the
number of people who agree on this issue is probably some sort of sign.
lactamaeon
> remember Necro Summer. The summer where if your deck couldn't deal
> with Necropotence, you might as well just concede every game, because
> they were %80 of the tournament scene?
>
> Well - looks like we're approaching Meddling Summer. Gentelme,
> prepare your Direct Interventions.
There's one advantage Jyhad still has over Magic.
If 80% of decks become Meddling decks... that means potentially a LOT
of votes on the table. How often do you think Meddling will actually
pass at that rate?
Another advantage over magic: no matter how hard this card is, by
itself it is far from an INSTANT win. If such decks dominate game,
players will forcibly shut them down cross-table. It's not too hard to
do, especially since their hand size is reduced. Sure, I'm sitting
here with a bigger disadvantage for a while, but if it's so bad as to
be unbalancing, well, nobody wants Necro to win AGAIN...
Looking at the text of the card, I'd say that the two potentially most
aided parties by the card are predator and grandpredator of the person
who plays it.
If I play it on my prey, and fail to take him out before my predator
finishes me off (quite possible, especially since I've made myself
quite a cross-table target), predator gains 6 pool and a VP, and takes
advantage of the fact that I've slowed down his *new* prey so much to
get more quickly.
Even if I do oust my prey, I still have to deal with the -1 hand size
until I call another political action to burn Semsmith - my predator
might take advantage of this by blocking, out-voting, delaying THIS,
instead of the original vote.
If I play it on my predator, my grandpredator soon becomes my
predator, and the benefit of the card is lost, while the penalty still
applies, so I'm an even better target for the player who just gained
six pool for my lunacy (again, he may now delay, block, etc. my
attempts to burn it... what an intriguing way to win)
After thinking about it... I'd have to say it's more like Lord of the
Pit than Necropotence. Maybe it's not as harsh as the pitlord, but
it's not as much of a boon as the 'potence.
Lactamaeon
"Never, NEVER, skip your draw phase unless the reason starts with N
and ends with ecropotence."
James Coupe
<pd...@aol.comANTISPAM> writes:
>Are there actually people out there who are (dare I say) shallow enough to go
>to a tournament that they would not have otherwise due to a promo give away?
Yes. Attracting players to tournaments with things like Dan Murdoch and
Marianna has been done in the past.
This is often extra-true of new players.
Halcyan 2
>go
>>to a tournament that they would not have otherwise due to a promo give away?
>
>Yes. Attracting players to tournaments with things like Dan Murdoch and
>Marianna has been done in the past.
>
>This is often extra-true of new players.
I don't think that it's as simple as "people attend the tournaments just
because the promo is offered."
It's not like the promo is the *only* factor, but in many cases where a person
is on the fence between going and not going, the promo may very well be the
deciding factor to convince the person to go. Which isn't a problem at all
IMHO.
Halcyan 2
Raille
Should that not be:
A) Meddling of Semsith is potential a very powerful card.
Raille
Tobias
> > Anyone here who played that other card game several years ago might
> > remember Necro Summer. The summer where if your deck couldn't deal
> > with Necropotence, you might as well just concede every game, because
> > they were %80 of the tournament scene?
> >
> > Well - looks like we're approaching Meddling Summer. Gentelme,
> > prepare your Direct Interventions.
>
>
> After thinking about it... I'd have to say it's more like Lord of the
> Pit than Necropotence. Maybe it's not as harsh as the pitlord, but
> it's not as much of a boon as the 'potence.
>
> Lactamaeon
>
> "Never, NEVER, skip your draw phase unless the reason starts with N
> and ends with ecropotence."
Ok, it's off-topic, but what the heck was necropotence?
Thanks
Tobias
Deventer
Raille
Peter D Bakija wrote:
>
> John wrote:
> >>Because everybody will want said powerful and new ability and maybe... just
> maybe... they will decide to attend the promotional event where they can
> attain the promotional card.>>
>
> I dunno, man. I don't know a single person who has ever gone to an event
> specifically to get a promo card. Ever. Sure, everyone appreciates promo cards
> at events, and it makes for a nice memento of the occasion, and everyone
> appreciates the game company that hands out promo cards, but I have never
> spoken to anyone, ever, who said "I'm just going to this event to get the promo
> card."
Me. I not onlyplay on going to two other events simply to get cards,
play Vtes and have a good time. I held a Storyline event also.
There, now you know at least one player.
This will net me 3 cards, one for my collection, and 2 to file away,
since I'm not too keen on playing them.
Raille
James Coupe
<tobiasop...@hotmail.com> writes:
>> "Never, NEVER, skip your draw phase unless the reason starts with N
>> and ends with ecropotence."
>
>Ok, it's off-topic, but what the heck was necropotence?
It was a card - called Necropotence - that allowed the generation of
lots of cards.
http://www.magic4you.nu/magic/community/judge/necroarmor.htm
Because of Magic's slow card generation relative to V:TES - where you
can tear through your deck if you want to/have built it like that -
drawing extra cards has always been a Big Thing.
Hannigan
> > and ends with ecropotence."
>
> Ok, it's off-topic, but what the heck was necropotence?
>
> Thanks
>
> Tobias
> Deventer
A Magic card. Enchantment. It cost 3 black to cast. Reads:
Skip your draw phase. If you discard a card from your hand, remove
that card from the game. (0) {that's an activation cost, since you've
apparently not played much if any Magic} Pay one life to set aside the
top card of your library. At the beginning of your next discard
phase, put that card in your hand. Effects that prevent or redirect
damage cannot be used to counter this loss of life.
Essentially, a card that breaks one of the most fundamental mechanisms
of Magic. In any game where you generally get to draw one card a
turn, the potential to draw seven or more is...terrifying. One life
per card was not enough of a cost.
Necro Summer refers to the time when the full potential of this card
dawned on the tournament crowd in Magic. IIRC, about 40-50% of all
tournaments were won by necropotence powered decks that summer.
They eventually decided to ban the card for most formats, and restrict
it in the others.
The Fanboy
An enchantment that forced you to skip your draw step. During your
upkeep, you paid X life, and moved X cards from the top of your
library to the side. At the end of your turn, you took those cards
into your hand.
It's a very efficient way to maintain a card advantage over your
opponent, and for a period of several months, was the dominant deck
archtype in the game.
Fanboy
Nystulc
>[ ] Better start praying MoS isn't as powerful as people seem to think.
I doubt it is nearly as powerful as people think. But I do think it was
designed to SEEM powerful. Helps the promo aspect, y'know.
One of the tricks used to make it seem powerful was to actually make it "extra
powerful" (in a sense) but give it a cost to balance its extra effect. Many
players will often consider only the powerful effect, while taking inadequate
account of the cost. One can have nightmares about Renegade Garous, while
failing to consider that he who plays the card is usually destroying himself
through pool loss.
In the case of Semsith, the cost to the player is less than that to the
victim. But that is as it should be. Conservative Agitation has no extra
cost, but can cost your victim 4 pool. ConAg is arguably a better option for
ousting your prey than Semsith,, for a wide number of reasons. For one thing,
you need vote-lock to keep Semsith in play, whereas ConAg is irreversible once
you push it through. For another, you cannot be too sure it will have much
effect on your victim. Depending on the design of his deck, he may be
minimally effected. You may even induce him to spend less effort attacking his
prey, and leave more minions untapped for blocking you, which is not what you
want.
Xian
> I'm just not seeing it, still.
Well, I have noticed that for the most part in my dealings with the
current/ex-Ithaca crowd (and especially you, Peter) that there is
definitely less of an emphasis on having lots of cards available,
rather than having cards you want to build the decks you like the most
(or are currently highly interested in). Which is probably
influencing your take on this.
On the other hand, here in Minnesota, virtually everyone wants to be a
collector, and they have to have one of each card that they can get
their hands on, won't trade away a card if they have only one copy (no
matter if it's only useful in multiples, like, say, Derange or
whatever). So anyway, pretty much everyone does this, even if they're
nowhere near close to completing "a set" (whatever that is). I can
guarantee you that there are people here that would go to a tournament
just to get a unique promo card that they can't get elsewhere. And
yes, it's kind of sad, IMO, but getting more people to play
competitively isn't all bad either.
This weekend, I went to the Madison Storyline tournament (had a great
time, btw, and am anxiously anticipating the tournament report in
order to comment on it. Placed 6th, and I am (as always) Cardano's
bitch. I almost certainly would have gone anyway, as it's my
hometown, got to see my family, etc. but I think there was some extra
effort by some of the other Minnesota players to make it down for the
tournament because of the promo.
So yeah, I agree with you that it's weird, but I definitely see this
sort of thing around. Seems like 'Fist does it a lot, too...though
generally the promo cards aren't nearly as huge as Meddling is.
Xian
tetragrammaton
"Nystulc" <nys...@cs.com> ha scritto nel messaggio
news:20020211135416...@mb-fk.news.cs.com...
> Thomas Pichler wrote:
<snip>
> In the case of Semsith, the cost to the player is less than that to the
> victim. But that is as it should be. Conservative Agitation has no
extra
> cost, but can cost your victim 4 pool.
Conservative agitation is a pain when you remain 1 VS 1,
since you'll be forced to damage yourself.
On the other hand, MoS would be still quite powerful,
above all in such a 1 vs 1 situation.
Just my thought
Emiliano, v:ekn Prince of Rome
<snip>
Peter D Bakija
>>So yeah, I agree with you that it's weird, but I definitely see this
sort of thing around. Seems like 'Fist does it a lot, too...though
generally the promo cards aren't nearly as huge as Meddling is.>>
Yeah, I still think it is a pretty weird concept that someone would go to a
tournament that they wouldn't have otherwise just to get a promo card. I mean,
if they can afford the time and money to go, and can get there, wouldn't they
go anyways?
I just don't understand. But that is me.
Yeah, Fist has promo cards, but I have been playing for a long time, and
haven't run into that many, in terms of tournament incentive. The most buff
Fist promo ever was the New White Ninja (who is powerful, sure, but very
expensive), and she was a give away from buying the players guide originally,
and at this point, she just gets given away by the handfull to anyone who shows
up at any event.
Peter D Bakija
>>Me. I not onlyplay on going to two other events simply to get cards,
play Vtes and have a good time. I held a Storyline event also.>>
You are honestly telling me that you would not have gone to the other two
tournaments anyway, if there wasn't a promo give away?
Why not? Too expensive? Too far away? Not enough time? If any of these are the
reason, how does getting a free card nullify these reasons? If there were no
reasons to prevent you from going, why wouldn't you have gone anyway?
>>There, now you know at least one player.>>
I'm just not seeing it. Sure, getting the card is good and all, but you really
would not have gone to these tournaments but for the promo card?
The Fanboy
> victim. But that is as it should be. Conservative Agitation has no extra
> cost, but can cost your victim 4 pool. ConAg is arguably a better option for
> ousting your prey than Semsith,, for a wide number of reasons.
True - it doesn't inflict direct pool loss.
But, if I've got vote lock (which is generally a variable of who else
is at the table more than deck construction - most political decks are
designed to get vote lock), and I have to worry about getting my votes
on the table because either predator or prey is playing dedicated
intercept - and I know I can pass the next vote, and I've got the
Daring the Dawn in my hand, guess which one I'd choose.
I'd Meddle the intercept deck. Let him try to stop me cold now - he
has enough cards in his hand to block one political action, play
through the resulting combat - and he's done for the turn.
Meanwhile, I've got one less card in my hand. Very few decks suffer
that badly from one less card in their hand - and those that do are
generally Rube Goldberg decks that are constantly cycling through 5 or
6 different kinds of moving parts. The vote deck only needs two types
of cards to work: referendums and Vote Push (sometimes they don't even
need that). If you shut down the person who can block your actions -
the push will never jam your hand, and you're free to steamroll them
off the table.
Vote lock means it doesn't leave until you're ready to let it go.
Your only X-Factor is making sure you've got the card(s) to survive
the resulting combat from the one action that gets blocked in a turn.
If both predator and prey are blocking you easily - go for the Con Ag
(preferably to oust one or the other), but intercept decks don't seem
that common. Tzimice, Ravnos, and Ahrimane walls are totally
hamstrung by this card.
The two decks most hampered by Meddling are highly reactive decks (the
aforementioned walls, for example) and rush decks (one action a turn =
never ousting). It will slow down, but not cripple, your standard S&B
deck, bruise bleed becomes so tooloboxy that it either fights or
bleeds - that's a big slowdown, but it doesn't stop you cold. Vote
decks only marginally notice, unless they've weenie politics, and then
they simply run out of cards each turn.
If a rush deck depends on transient rush, then they have no turn
unless they have that rush card in their hand after their master
phase. Intercept decks get to block one action, maybe two, before
they're sitting ducks.
Sadly - these are the two deck types I enjoy playing. This means that
whenever the card comes out - I can't play. This is not doing much to
encourage my support of the product.
Fanboy
Raille
Peter D Bakija wrote:
>
> Umm, yeah.
>
Yeah. I ran my first tourneyment just for the Storyline event.
Raille
Raille
Peter D Bakija wrote:
>
> 'Cause it is incentive to attend a tournament?
>
> I don't really understand how promos increase attendance or
You don't have to understand it, just accept the fact that it has
happened.
Raille
Raille
Peter D Bakija wrote:
>
> Raille wrote:
> >>Me. I not onlyplay on going to two other events simply to get cards,
> play Vtes and have a good time. I held a Storyline event also.>>
>
> You are honestly telling me that you would not have gone to the other two
> tournaments anyway, if there wasn't a promo give away?
Probably only one of the other two.
> Why not? Too expensive? Too far away? Not enough time? If any of these are the
> reason, how does getting a free card nullify these reasons? If there were no
> reasons to prevent you from going, why wouldn't you have gone anyway?
Variation of Not enough time. The reason for going, means time away
from the family and I burn up a LOT of brownie points. The Promo card
gained is iceing on the cake. I love simply playing, but the long drive
to go is harder to bargin out on the home from, however having a rather
understanding wife, the addition of the Promo card, gains me the edge,
which I burn to attend the game(s).
> >>There, now you know at least one player.>>
>
> I'm just not seeing it. Sure, getting the card is good and all, but you really
> would not have gone to these tournaments but for the promo card?
Maybe, maybe not. Like I said going without the Promo is a hard sell,
here at Daves House.
Raille
Raille
Peter D Bakija wrote:
> The effect of Meddling is incredibly powerful, and one that will have a great
> effect on the game environment as a whole (given enough people buying Meddlings
> off e-bay for $20.00 each...). I doubt anyone would say the same of Dan
> Murdock's ability.
Have you seen any for sale on Ebay Yet?
Raille
Peter D Bakija
>>Have you seen any for sale on Ebay Yet?>>
Not yet. Give it time.
Peter D Bakija
>>Maybe, maybe not. Like I said going without the Promo is a hard sell,
here at Daves House.>>
Kooky. So you can use "But there is a promo card!" as a legitimate excuse? Man.
My wife would never buy that :-)
Frederick Scott
That actually tends to support what Peter is saying. Had it been a card valued
in the moderate range, I expect we would have. The fact that no one has chosen
to put his card up for auction very quickly suggests that they're rather coveted
by those who own them so far. If so, demand is likely to outstrip supply and we'll
likely see some truly stunning prices for a single slab of cardboard - at least at
first.
Of course, all this is mere speculation. Reality frequently has a way of doing
whatever I least expect. (And often screams, "Nyuk, nyuk!!!", after doing it to
me...)
Fred
Raille
Peter D Bakija wrote:
>
> Raille wrote:
> >>Maybe, maybe not. Like I said going without the Promo is a hard sell,
> here at Daves House.>>
>
> Kooky. So you can use "But there is a promo card!" as a legitimate excuse? Man.
> My wife would never buy that :-)
>
Well I have a half/gamer for a wife. And while it maybe kooky, I ain't
complaining!
Raille
Halcyan 2
>play Vtes and have a good time. I held a Storyline event also.>>
>
>You are honestly telling me that you would not have gone to the other two
>tournaments anyway, if there wasn't a promo give away?
>
>Why not? Too expensive? Too far away? Not enough time? If any of these are
>the
>reason, how does getting a free card nullify these reasons? If there were no
>reasons to prevent you from going, why wouldn't you have gone anyway?
I'll admit that this month, I'll be going to a lot more tournaments than I
normally go to in a month (2 vs. a typical 0).
Truth be told, my primary motivating factor is the fact that they are storyline
tournaments (go !Tremere!). The secondary factor would be for the promo. If
both of these two factors were not present, I probably wouldn't make (or have
made) the extra effort to go to the tourneys (but I'm glad I went to the
Madison one so far...).
Halcyan 2
LSJ
> LSJ wrote:
> >>Yes. That's what the players/princes in question have claimed themselves.
> The world is a big place.
> It takes many kinds.>>
>
> Crazy. Who woulda thought. I still don't buy it that promos are a significant
> factor in tournament attendance, but as others claim it is, I don't have much
> to stand on here.
>
> Simply as anecdotal evidence, I am attatched to a fairly large VTES playgroup.
> When we go to tournaments, it is because we can arrange the time off and have
> the money to do so. When we can't, it is 'cause we don't. The existance of a
> promo card has zero bearing on the ability or desire to go to a given
> tournament--there is a nearby storyline tournament that no one around here can
> go to do to conflicting events and work/family schedules.
For further anecdotal evidence (to the other side), there were 35 VEKN
tournaments sanctioned for January. There are 103 for February (including 74
Storyline tournaments). Each of December and November 2001 had 31.
(December's numbers are artificially low due to the number of BL pre-release
events being held at the beginning of that month, however.)
--
LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc.
Links to revised rulebook, rulings, errata, and tournament rules:
http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/
James Coupe
wolf.com> writes:
>For further anecdotal evidence (to the other side), there were 35 VEKN
>tournaments sanctioned for January. There are 103 for February (including 74
>Storyline tournaments). Each of December and November 2001 had 31.
Out of interest, do you have the numbers for January and February 2001,
just to prove (or not) that these things don't just happen to be related
to the fact that we always triple the number of tournaments held in
February.